HK: LEM or DA?

[Sauer Koch]

For those who own HK’s, which trigger system do you prefer to carry, and or use for HD? I think I know the answer, but it’ll be interesting to see the breakdown.

[farscott]

After shooting, V1, V2, and V3, my choice is light LEM. Some of it is due to the extra safety afforded by the long trigger pull, some of it is the single trigger pull, some of it is the lack of a need to decock, part of it is the not-so-good DA trigger of the P30, and some of it is the location of the P30 decocking button. I am more likely to need to not pull the trigger than need the speed advantage of the DA/SA trigger. I do find LEM harder to shoot well at speed than DA/SA, but the difference is not significant enough to me to abandon LEM.

[Tom Duffy]

The double action pull on an HK sucks. Reason enough for LEM. The LEM also has a distinct wall and a decent break.

[entropy]

LEM. Not even a question. Run :10min of drills with a DA HK and you’ll come to the same conclusion.

[Sauer Koch]

We shot Sig TDA’s (226 & 229) for a few years, then the wife ended up choosing an LEM P30SK V1, due to issues with trigger reach and i really liked it. I ended up getting a P30 V1, and it’s now my carry gun. I used it for Gabe White’s PSS course and for TacCon this year, and it’s been a great experience.
I realize there are different versions of LEM, but for the sake of this poll, It’ll be LEM Vs DA.
The only DA HK I’ve shot was an HK45, and it was pretty nice. Having two 1911’s, if I was to ever buy another .45, it’d be an LEM HK45.

[fatdog]

LEM light

[YVK]

I shot/carried/took classes/competed with a P30 LEM for six years or so. If I could do it again, I would've done DA/SA.

[Navin Johnson]

We shot Sig TDA’s (226 & 229) for a few years, then the wife ended up choosing an LEM P30SK V1, due to issues with trigger reach and i really liked it. I ended up getting a P30 V1, and it’s now my carry gun. I used it for Gabe White’s PSS course and for TacCon this year, and it’s been a great experience.
I realize there are different versions of LEM, but for the sake of this poll, It’ll be LEM Vs DA.
The only DA HK I’ve shot was an HK45, and it was pretty nice. Having two 1911’s, if I was to ever buy another .45, it’d be an LEM HK45.

So ......why would you ask? Even if you had never used one let alone the fact you both have them.

With a little bit of effort one could research and find what most people on the forum would say already because this trigger has been covered many times.

Sorry if I come off a little bit direct ..... There's plenty of foums for people to post questions to see how many answers they can get.

[1slow]

Either LEM or cocked and locked.

Match / LEM hybrid USP is my favorite. On P30 light LEM.

[GJM]

On the USP FS, hybrid match LEM. On the P30, DA/SA. On the HK45/45C, light LEM. On the P2000, flip a coin to decide.

[M2CattleCo]

The only DA/SA HKs I've shot have been a few P2000s and the DA was really just way too heavy to be very useable. It should at least not be so heavy that it makes the trigger shoe flex.

Light LEM is better, but still, why??

[GJM]

The only DA/SA HKs I've shot have been a few P2000s and the DA was really just way too heavy to be very useable. It should at least not be so heavy that it makes the trigger shoe flex.

Light LEM is better, but still, why??

Is your question, why an HK?

[newyork]

Or maybe a safety model.

[M2CattleCo]

Is your question, why an HK?


Well, why LEM or TDA HK?

[CCT125US]

Well, why LEM or TDA HK?

Why not?

[M2CattleCo]

Because they're one of, if not the most, difficult to shoot handguns to shoot well, and they don't offer anything that any other plethora of handguns don't.

[TGS]

The comment about HK DA being unusable is outright fucking ridiculous. Full stop, end of story.

The best accuracy I ever put out from my P2000 was in DA....my groups were demonstratively tighter, even in WHO/SHO shooting. This was something that Todd Green noted was very common once someone learned how to shoot a DA trigger correctly, so I know I'm not alone.

I took top shooter in several classes with my stock P2000 DA/SA, and was in the top 1/3rd of the class for all three classes I attended with Todd Green. After 12,000 rounds I had Gray Guns do a trigger job on it, which felt nicer but regardless of the smoother and lighter weights I could not quantify a performance difference.

Given that factoid about the lack of performance difference, I'll also use performance post-trigger job as a metric too. I "won" 2nd place in the walkback drill at a STG class, putting rounds on a steel torso plate at 145 yards. 180 yards is where I lost it. These were all classes with people shooting Glocks, SIGs, and 1911s.

What it comes down to is that while the trigger didn't feel nice, and wasn't a fun trigger, it worked just fine. My performance with an LEM was not any better than with the DA/SA.

With all that said, I agree with M2CattleCo regarding "why an HK to begin with", and them being harder to shoot. My performance with other guns is more consistent than HKs (LEM included). I still reflexively call shots all the time that I think are "out", when in fact they are still "in". With the P2000, they most certainly would have been "out", and I'm still calibrated to that gun in terms of shot calling. While the P2000 DA/SA was completely serviceable, my Berettas and SIGs have all been easier to shoot and didn't require as much effort to shoot well, or as much effort to maintain skill.


I shot/carried/took classes/competed with a P30 LEM for six years or so. If I could do it again, I would've done DA/SA.

I wonder if this is a "grass is greener" effect for both of us, because regardless of my confidence in performance with the DA/SA, I think I'd go LEM if I was going to do HKs again. My is more centered around the gun as a threat management tool, including post shooting.

What are your thoughts, or reasons to go DA/SA instead of LEM?

[CCT125US]

Because they're one of, if not the most, difficult to shoot handguns to shoot well, and they don't offer anything that any other plethora of handguns don't.

Takes off glasses, places them on table, rubs temples, pinches bridge of nose, inhale / exhale deeply, puts on glasses.

You do realize, that your opinion may not be shared by others? Spouting off your dislike of something in a thread asking a specific question is not helpful.

What metrics and standards have you applied to come to this conclusion? Do you have any recent training journal entries to point to?

[Doc_Glock]

Because they're one of, if not the most, difficult to shoot handguns to shoot well, and they don't offer anything that any other plethora of handguns don't.

My experience is quite contrary to this. I shoot them well, near the top of my game and they are very accurate, very durable, very reliable and generally non drama handguns. I find HK reliability out of the box much higher than any other brand.

And DA/SA>LEM.

[M2CattleCo]

^That's exactamente my point.

Why bother? I can a poor 16lb DA accurately too. But why should I?? Walkbacks are confidence drills. It's the same thing as walking 'em onto a target.

The easy stuff, and the stuff we train for until we can't get wrong is not where the HK DA or LEM is going to cause a miss. It's the random stuff where you freeze or snatch that it bites you.

Same reason I fly aircraft with low wing loading and high maneuverability. I can fly the pig just fine, but the nimble plane will get you out of an 'oh shit' where the pig will kill you. The NTSB will correctly read 'pilot error', but I'd rather have the advantage without the wreck.

[newyork]

I know you’re predominantly a 1911 guy but I’m curious what TDA guns you prefer M2.

[M2CattleCo]

I've been running M9s/92s for 20 years. Like Sigs too.

[YVK]

I wonder if this is a "grass is greener" effect for both of us

What are your thoughts, or reasons to go DA/SA instead of LEM?

Very possibly the case. CCT125US here put a lot of work into the DA/SA and then switched to LEM with good results. I switched to DA/SA, not an HK but that's not as relevant, and got better results. Part of it was the natural progression because of work put in, but ultimately I think that shooting SA is easier for me than LEM. I've not found the DA trigger on HK impossible to work; I even found the way to decock the LEM trigger on a live round at the range and practice my DA shooting with it. LEM speedbump, however, kept me on my toes till the very end.

[GJM]

A few thoughts:

Coming to a thread of enthusiasts, and trashing their gun, is guaranteed to get a poor reaction. You seem to regularly do it, and must enjoy it, as this isn’t the first instance.

As to why an HK, consider the following. While an HK hammer gun in 9mm yields less output for a given amount of skill than some other platforms, the trade off is you get a bullet proof pistol, with arguably the best OEM magazines made, and a trigger that is ideal for the non shooting aspects of gunfighting. The real “why HK” answer is .40 and .45. HK pistols are simply better in .40 and .45 than Glock, Sig, and Beretta alternatives in these calibers. I have used a P30 LEM .40 to stop a moose charge, that almost certainly would have led to serious injury or worse for my wife and I, which gives me a warm fuzzy for HK hammer pistols. Then, there is my ultimate argument for an HK hammer gun, being able to reliably launch .45 Super ammo. There is, in my experience, no better field pistol than a FS USP .45 with a match hybrid LEM trigger.

[psalms144.1]

On the one hand, the HK DA/SA is typically pretty horrible. Heavy, gritty DA, spongy, creepy SA. On the other hand, the LEM is just plain weird - great trigger if you want to point it at things and NOT shoot unintentionally, horrible trigger if you want to shoot any drills at speed. I carried both, over a period of about four years, as primary/exclusive pistols, so I've got 10-15K rounds through each trigger system in a variety of platforms.

If you told me I HAD TO pick one or the other, and it was the only pistol I was ever going to have access to again, I'd grudgingly take the LEM, because I'll take a whole bunch of weird, springy feeling but light and smooth trigger presses over the alternative.

[M2CattleCo]

A few thoughts:

Coming to a thread of enthusiasts, and trashing their gun, is guaranteed to get a poor reaction. You seem to regularly do it, and must enjoy it, as this isn’t the first instance.

As to why an HK, consider the following. While an HK hammer gun in 9mm yields less output for a given amount of skill than some other platforms, the trade off is you get a bullet proof pistol, with arguably the best OEM magazines made, and a trigger that is ideal for the non shooting aspects of gunfighting. The real “why HK” answer is .40 and .45. HK pistols are simply better in .40 and .45 than Glock, Sig, and Beretta alternatives in these calibers. I have used a P30 LEM .40 to stop a moose charge, that almost certainly would have led to serious injury or worse for my wife and I, which gives me a warm fuzzy for HK hammer pistols. Then, there is my ultimate argument for an HK hammer gun, being able to reliably launch .45 Super ammo. There is, in my experience, no better field pistol than a FS USP .45 with a match hybrid LEM trigger.


If it's highlights are moose, 45 Super, and not shooting, am I really trashing it??

I appreciate HKs mags more than most, and their pistols are engineered better than any, but they could have done a lot better with the man-machine interface.

If they made a P30&P2000 with a badass trigger-job Beretta kinda trigger, they'd be the only thing I owned.

[JonInWA]

If it's highlights are moose, 45 Super, and not shooting, am I really trashing it??

I appreciate HKs mags more than most, and their pistols are engineered better than any, but they could have done a lot better with the man-machine interface.

If they made a P30&P2000 with a badass trigger-job Beretta kinda trigger, they'd be the only thing I owned.

They do; it's the V1.5, V2, V4, V4.1 and VTLG LEM. And yes, I prefer LEM, especially for a duty/threat management HK. Best, Jon

[entropy]

Potato, potatoe. Blondes, redheads, brunettes. Pick what works for you and rock on...

I’ve carried and shot a HK LEM by requirement since 2004. As stated in another post, it’s not a fun trigger, but the gun and platform works, and gives me the highest confidence of going “bang”. Every. Single. Time. Period. I’ll take it’s shortcomings for that.

Nothing is perfect.

[Squib308]

years back i installed an LEM kit into my USP 9. felt great but was difficult for my brain to learn. can jump between TDA <-> SFA but the LEM for me was just challenging. behaved like a long SA trigger and the presence of a wall on such trigger travel for me was too different and now worth the tough learning curve. a few years later I acquired an HK45c w LEM and did the exact same experiment again w same results. I see the merits in the LEM but for me its DA/SA if I can choose. if on the fence I would go w an HK45 V1 model then get the LEM kit so can have either setup. last I checked HK doesnt sell the V1 parts to swap a factory LEM HK45 back to DA/SA.

[HCountyGuy]

I like the LEM vs HK’s TDA. I know it’s nitpicking but the DA on the HK’s I’ve fiddled with didn’t feel as nice as other TDA pistols I’d handled (Sig & Beretta).

The 4.1 LEM P30 I had was niiiiice and I’d unhesitatingly get one in that configuration again because the trigger was a smooth roll, no wall that I was able to discern. Truthfully the LEM needs a bit of configuring by the shooter and it can be made great. It’s not the most shootable trigger but it’s not designed to be and I wish people who bash it would accept what its intended purpose is.

I will say I just wish HK could get the reset across all LEMs to be like the reset on the HK45.

[David S.]

Light LEM is better, but still, why??

For many of us: Dagga Boy: Why I like the LEM as a "street trigger." (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot)

Also, the LEM can be shot pretty damn well, as demonstrated by TLG several years ago. IIRC, he set more than one PR with the LEM trigger during his year with it.

[pangloss]

I went with DA/SA (v3) because those are the pistols that I found really good deals on. I've read enough posts on this over the years that I don't think there is a "right" answer. If such an answer existed, HK would probably trim their pistol line.

I've never even had the opportunity to shoot an LEM gun of any sort. So sad.

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using Tapatalk

[LtDave]

From a left handed shooter's perspective the decock button on the DA/SA P30 is in a sub optimal place. I can't reach it with either thumb without breaking my grip. The levers on SIG DA/SA guns and on Beretta G model guns are much easier for me to reach.

I also prefer a simpler manual of arms that doesn't require decocking the gun. I don't mind the LEM trigger as I spent a lot of years shooting DA revolvers and it is very natural to me. I agree with DB that LEM is probably the best "street" trigger set up on a handgun. Not having to decock the gun is icing on the cake.

[OlongJohnson]

I went with DA/SA (v3) because those are the pistols that I found really good deals on. I've read enough posts on this over the years that I don't think there is a "right" answer. If such an answer existed, HK would probably trim their pistol line.

I didn't vote, because I still haven't figured it out. Earlier this year, I decided to focus and get on with it sorting out USPs. Started taking them apart, and have learned a bunch. I've criticized S&W 3rd Gens in the past for being a box with too many levers, etc. crammed into it. Especially in comparison to a classic Sig, which is incredibly simple and elegant with so few parts that work in a beautiful, harmonious dance. USPs are a little like the 3rd gen, but where with the 3rd gen, everything is locked into the one way it was built, the USP trigger system's complexity (and it ain't all that complicated, really) is its strength; different parts all work together properly, and you really can have it your way. Also, where a lot of things require fitting on the S&W 3rd Gen, USP is built with modern manufacturing and tolerances and stuff just drops in and works.

I've set up one pistol with LEM-Match hybrid and done all my normal deburring & smoothing of the moving parts. It's quite smooth, and really decent for LEM, but I was still disappointed with my initial results actually shooting the LEM. Lots of low & left, which is something I had gotten away from awhile ago. I'm unlikely to focus on LEM to the exclusion of all other systems, so I'm motivated to get a DA/SA setup working well. It seems like work done with a good DA/SA USP would both be more beneficial when shooting other systems, and suffer less deterioration when I spend time with other systems.

I have a pretty good hypothesis for why the DA is so crappy. There's what I would do about it if I had or wanted a firearms business and could throw money at designing parts and having them made. Then there's what I'm going to start with, trying to improve the parts that are there. Will report here when I get results. Suffice it to say at this point that the lame DA does not appear to be inherent to the geometry of the design, therefore it should be possible to improve it.

I expect that if I go with DA/SA, it will be V3. I'm also doing a variety of ergonomic mods. I've written elsewhere about the HK45c mag catch and the accommodations required to the part to make it work properly in a non-HK45c pistol. I've messed with shaving the lower corner of the decocking lever so it doesn't put that blister on the inside of my thumb knuckle (eliminating it entirely is an obvious advantage of LEM). And I'm going to try adding material to the trigger shoe to reshape it and make it more like a standard reach Sig trigger (TRIGGER-6).

One option that doesn't get talked about much is the Condition 1 that's possible with USPV1. It's another option for avoiding the DA press, and ambi levers are available for those who require them. With basic smoothing of internal components, the nickel sear spring, and choice of trigger and hammer spring, the SA can be perfectly serviceable. It will never be a good 1911, but it can be as good as most lower-end 1911s and perfectly useable for a service pistol. One good option might even be the Match hammer and standard hammer spring. As far as I can tell, the Match hammer only differs from the standard one in the cut of the sear notch; it doesn't seem to do anything for the DA. The standard blue-background variant chart indicates that V9/10 are DA/SA without decock. It's not clear how you'd ever get into DA mode after chambering a round (it would frankly be silly to choose this detent configuration if you intended to run it that way), although having a functionally SA gun with a DA restrike option might not be the end of the world. For those inclined to run Condition 1, a USP with ambi safety levers if needed and V9/10 detent plate would seem to be worthy of consideration. (Or just KISS and run the most common V1 that way.) In some aspects, kinda like a double-stack 1911 with reliability on par with the best 1911s and price on par with the cheapest single stacks that will usually actually function.

[Sauer Koch]

Potato, potatoe. Blondes, redheads, brunettes. Pick what works for you and rock on...

I’ve carried and shot a HK LEM by requirement since 2004. As stated in another post, it’s not a fun trigger, but the gun and platform works, and gives me the highest confidence of going “bang”. Every. Single. Time. Period. I’ll take it’s shortcomings for that.

Nothing is perfect.

Agree. I switched to LEM from a Sig 226 & 229, and it's been a great transition, and I've learned a lot between the two systems. As far as speed is concerned, I know GJM earned a Turbo Pin from Gabe White with a USP LEM, so that proves speed is possible, if you do the work, although it's not the intended purpose of the system. I only had my P30 V1 for about three months, when I signed up for Gabe's PSS course, and decided to go ahead and use it, even though it was new to me, but I was able to shockingly earn a Dark Pin, from concealment, IWB at 4:00. I had always focused on accuracy, and rarely tried to shoot fast, so I have no idea how I managed to squeak out a Dark Pin with a new trigger system like that, but if I can do it, anyone can. I humbly credited Gabe with being an excellent instructor, pushing us to be our best, aside from that, just a lot of practice, and a little luck!

It's interesting how GJM likes DA on one model, and LEM on another.

[Hi-Point Aficionado]

Heavy LEM preferred. Cocked and locked with ambidextrous control lever second choice.

Light LEM does not give me better timed results. Heavy LEM does allow me to feel the trigger when my hands are cold or in gloves 6-9 months of the year. So easy choice there.

[fpnunes]

From a left handed shooter's perspective the decock button on the DA/SA P30 is in a sub optimal place. I can't reach it with either thumb without breaking my grip. The levers on SIG DA/SA guns and on Beretta G model guns are much easier for me to reach.

I also prefer a simpler manual of arms that doesn't require decocking the gun. I don't mind the LEM trigger as I spent a lot of years shooting DA revolvers and it is very natural to me. I agree with DB that LEM is probably the best "street" trigger set up on a handgun. Not having to decock the gun is icing on the cake.

As a fellow lefty I was going to chime in as well but upon re-reading Lt's post I really think he nailed it. Love my LEM P30L/P30SK/P2000 far and above my USP compacts and most DA/SA guns for simple ease of left handed use. OMMV but I think it is a great system.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

On the USP FS, hybrid match LEM. On the P30, DA/SA. On the HK45/45C, light LEM. On the P2000, flip a coin to decide.

On the P30 (SK), DA/SA is not for the faint of heart. It is much heavier (though smooth) than P30L I have for example.

[M2CattleCo]

On the P30 (SK), DA/SA is not for the faint of heart. It is much heavier (though smooth) than P30L I have for example.


Same as the P2000. The trigger shoe flexes as the DA pull stacks and it all springs loose when the shot breaks.

If they could get the trigger pull weight as light as the decocker they'd have something.

[OlongJohnson]

The trigger shoe flexes as the DA pull stacks and it all springs loose when the shot breaks.

That's one of the things I've noticed is a key difference between HK and classic Sig. The big, thick, steel trigger on the Sigs is orders of magnitude more rigid, in addition to a shape I prefer. The curvature of HK trigger shoes is more like the Sig short reach trigger, which I strongly dislike. Also, because of its more typical configuration and the fact that it's not spring loaded when installing the trigger axle/pin, you can shim it to take up the lateral rattle/play in the frame, which makes it much more secure and solid feeling. Bigger difference than you'd think before trying it.

There may be even more going on with the differences between them, but I haven't had a chance to take them both apart and measure since I brainstormed the possible insight.

[Hot Cereal]

The only thing holding me back from fully jumping into HK is the lack of a true subcompact pistol. Something singlish stack and 6-8 rounds. Striker fired guns are generally all the same, at least for me switching between Glock, Smith etc isn’t a big deal. I can carry a Glock primary and Shield back up without any issues. But LEM is just different enough that if I was going to transition to it I’d have to go mostly all in on it. And yes, I have a P2000 that I threw some Lazy Wolf springs in and breaks just above 4lbs. Sweet AF.

[sparkyfender]

I have both, prefer DA/SA by a slight margin.

[UniSol]

DA/SA because I have more experience with it....my limited time on LEM (V7) reflects most others' initial experiences. The general consensus of SMEs and other in depth users not being discounted.

[2xAGM114]

Light LEM V1.