Purse gun reflections.

[Trooper224]

My youngest son arrived home on leave a few days ago. So, today was my first day off for the holidays and we, of course, went shooting. Since I had several baby guns he'd never shot, ie. the Browning BDA, the Beretta 70S and the Manurhin/Walther PP, he was keen to try those out. He also brought along his new manufacture Beretta 84 to add to the mix.

Between the BDA and the 84, the BDA wins the sexy contest hands down. It's sleek, shiny and blued, with pretty wood grips. The sights also suck sweaty camel balls compared to the 84, which are a bit small themselves. The 84 was far more controllable with its black plastic checkered grips and fore and aft serrations on the frame. I'm going to have to obtain an 84 and leave the BDA on the "ain't it cool" shelf. The frame mounted safety/decocker on the 84 is also an improvement.

We both agree, the Beretta 70S is by far the coolest of all the pistols present and also the biggest hand slapper. The recoil is actually pretty snappy when compared to the larger Beretta/Browning guns. I intended for that one to remain on the "cool" shelf from the get go, so no concerns over performance. It's just all style and it is accurate. If I ever find myself driving an Alfa Romeo I may slap it on in a shoulder rig, but otherwise: cool stuff.

The PP was the biggest nail driver of the bunch. I've only shot it twice, but at ten yards it really lays those .32 BBs in there. It also abrades the top of my hand like a cheese grader as Walthers always have. Too bad, as it's got a great trigger and is quite fun to shoot otherwise. I bought it because every collection needs a 007 gun. I may never shoot it again.

Everything was pretty accurate in my hands, because I've been fooling around with these little guns lately. My son wasn't so lucky. His 84 was fine, but he really pulled off to the left with the others. They're obviously too small for his hands and I sympathize. I was standing behind him while he was throwing his shots, with comments consisting of, "oh my", "good god magnum!", "did you spring from my loins?" and the like. He's a pretty good shot and he's been spending his off time training with some Devgru and MARSOC guys. On the other hand, he's 25 and becoming a bit arrogant, so I take every opportunity to prick his bubble. :) He says, "I tell the guys, every time I start getting happy with myself I go home and some old guy puts me in my place." I then dumped nine rounds out of the PP, at ten yards one-handed and managed to put them into a single dime sized hole. My instant gratification was the response of, "you suck old man." :) He then had his first opportunity to shot my Centac. His opinion agreed with mine: it's nice, but not twice the price of a standard 92 nice.

I didn't have the heart to tell him his older brother, who isn't a gun guy or regular shooter, previously out shot him with all of them.

After a three hundred or so round session, we both left with red, lacerated and swollen hands. I was also reminded why I tend to favor full size service pistols.

[MattyD380]

The old school blowbacks will always have a place in my heart. And often my hand. The Mak is my personal favorite. Stoopid accurate (for me) while still being fairly small. Yet, subjectively, it feels robust enough to be service pistol. Which it is, I guess.

I keep a Sig P230 in my glovebox. It's a nice shooter too--and slightly more svelte--but the Mak handles better for me. I've had a PPK and a PP. Both were accurate. But ended up selling both.

Always wanted to try a Cheetah. One day I'll have to grab one.

[Caballoflaco]

The old school blowbacks will always have a place in my heart. And often my hand. The Mak is my personal favorite. Stoopid accurate (for me) while still being fairly small. Yet, subjectively, it feels robust enough to be service pistol. Which it is, I guess.

I keep a Sig P230 in my glovebox. It's a nice shooter too--and slightly more svelte--but the Mak handles better for me. I've had a PPK and a PP. Both were accurate. But ended up selling both.

Always wanted to try a Cheetah. One day I'll have to grab one.

Please don’t. Five of the six cops killed here in Alabam this year were killed with stolen guns.

[Clay1]

One forum that I frequent lays the love down for the Seacamp 32. Just looking for another view of the small pocket carry piece. Anyone have an opinion of a Seacamp?

Another thread that is going on right now is talking about the larger Kahr, but they make a small gun as well like the PM9. I've heard the Seacamp 380 is miserable on the hand too, so many shoot the 32. I haven't shot the PM9 or the Seacamp 380 or 32.

Thanks

[TGS]

One forum that I frequent lays the love down for the Seacamp 32. Just looking for another view of the small pocket carry piece. Anyone have an opinion of a Seacamp?

Another thread that is going on right now is talking about the larger Kahr, but they make a small gun as well like the PM9. I've heard the Seacamp 380 is miserable on the hand too, so many shoot the 32. I haven't shot the PM9 or the Seacamp 380 or 32.

Thanks

A small 380 like that Seecamp is in a different world compared to a PM9.

The PM9 has brisk recoil, but it's not unpleasant or painful.

[Beat Trash]

One forum that I frequent lays the love down for the Seacamp 32. Just looking for another view of the small pocket carry piece. Anyone have an opinion of a Seacamp?

Another thread that is going on right now is talking about the larger Kahr, but they make a small gun as well like the PM9. I've heard the Seacamp 380 is miserable on the hand too, so many shoot the 32. I haven't shot the PM9 or the Seacamp 380 or 32.

Thanks

I owned a .32 Seecamp about 25 years ago. It was only useable with the Winchester Silvertip round.

It was the latest and greatest of its time. All the rage in gun magazines (a time before the internet), and according to the “expert” advice printed at the time about one shot stopping power, the .32 acp Silvertip was acceptable. So I ordered a Seecamp .32 to use as a BUG as a newer officer. About six months later it showed up. During that time the mystique for this gun went through the roof, and prices were insane for one that was actually available for sale.

I was excited about my new pocket death ray blaster. Until I discovered the rounds would keyhole at 5-7 feet! I walked into a gun show. The first dealer I showed it to offered me twice what I paid for it. I sold it and then bought a S&W J-frame.

I’ve sold a lot of guns over the years that I later ended up regretting selling. I’ve never regretted selling that Seecamp.

[MattyD380]

Please don’t. Five of the six cops killed here in Alabam this year were killed with stolen guns.

I guess it never really clicked that a gun left in a car was at higher risk of theft. I mean, that's obvious, I suppose. Just wasn't a tangible reality.

I'll reconsider that approach. Thanks.

[Ed L]

One forum that I frequent lays the love down for the Seacamp 32. Just looking for another view of the small pocket carry piece. Anyone have an opinion of a Seacamp?

Another thread that is going on right now is talking about the larger Kahr, but they make a small gun as well like the PM9. I've heard the Seacamp 380 is miserable on the hand too, so many shoot the 32. I haven't shot the PM9 or the Seacamp 380 or 32.

Seecamp .32s are not great gun choices. They often break within a few hundred rounds and then the company takes forever to fix them and is impossible to communicate with. I have had this happen with 3 different Seecamps over the years.

Mention on that forum that you have a problem with your Seecamp and your post will be deleted and you will be banned.

I have never had a Seecamp that either came from the factory that worked OR lasted more than 200 rounds without breaking.

I picked up my first Seecamp .32 in the early 1990s at an out of the way Dallas gun store that has long since closed down. It was $380 at a time when these guns were selling for something like $800+ on the open market, and the company had at least a year waiting list on orders. I put about 200 rounds of Silvertip through the gun and it worked. So when I found a second one at the same store for the same price I bought it, but it did not work. It took 8 months of faxes and letters and certified letters to the factory to get it repaired. I got it back and it worked.

A few years later I was firing the original Seecamp and it broke. I doubt the gun had more than 400 rounds through it. Sent it back to the factory for repair and went through the same thing. Finally after 10 months the factory called me back and told me that they could not fix it because they changed their machinery so they would send me a replacement. I accepted their offer, testfired it for 200 rounds, and called it good. I later wound up selling the older one, while the newer one languished in the safe. In 2013 I took it shooting and it broke within a box of ammo. Sent it back and it took forever to get repaired. It now resides somewhere in my safe. I am not really sure why I still have it, but I am afraid to test fire it for fear it may break. I probably need to sell it along with a number of other things.

I am actually a big fan of the Kahr PM-9. I have had good luck with the two that I own. They are a great gun for pocket carry in suit and dress slacks. I have somewhere north of 2000 rounds through them. I actually shoot better with them than I do with a S&W Shield. I have found them to be quite accurate for a small gun and to have a great d/a only trigger. The last comment comes from someone who dislikes d/a autos. However, I have a heard a fair number of bad stories stories about Khars.

[john c]

Ed;

What broke on your Seecamps? Was it the same thing each time, or a different problem?

[Vandal320]

I have a Manurhin PP in .32acp. One sweet shooting gun.

[JRB]

That 70S is absolutely gorgeous from the pics you posted in your other thread - I can see why it was the most charismatic of the bunch. That sounds like a fantastic range trip!

[Clay1]

Thanks for everyone's reply about the Seacamp pistols. Much appreciate the cost savings.

[MattyD380]

I had entertained the idea of a Seecamp as a pocket gun. Now I’m thinking not.

Anybody try the micro desert eagle? Are those even still being made? Also, Kel Tec P32s were literally less than $200 on GB not long ago.

[Clay1]

I've always said that I never wanted a "tactical watch Fob" and things like: "I've never met anyone that was in a real gun fight that wished that they had a smaller gun with less ammo".

My little gun is a G19.5

I would love something that is quality and small. It will be a back up to the primary, not a primary fighting firearm. Would like it the size of a Seecamp 32 but I like a compact 9 better. Don't want something to pocket carry that is striker fired, like the Kahr trigger, long and smooth but not easily accidentally discharged without a holster in the pocket.

So share your thoughts and thanks in advance.

[TGS]

I would love something that is quality and small. It will be a back up to the primary, not a primary fighting firearm. Would like it the size of a Seecamp 32 but I like a compact 9 better. Don't want something to pocket carry that is striker fired, like the Kahr trigger, long and smooth but not easily accidentally discharged without a holster in the pocket.

So share your thoughts and thanks in advance.

I think what you want needs to be hashed out a little better. Your wants are kind of all over the place.

Do you want something the size of a Seecamp, or do you want a (presumably reliable) compact 9? They're mutually exclusive.

The Kahr PM9 is probably the smallest 9mm out there that is still acceptably reliable for self defense....but anything larger than it is too big to really be called a pocket gun. I know that some people have very large pockets, there's a defunct member of the forum that used to pocket carry an M&P Compact.....but that doesn't mean an M&P Compact is a pocket gun. IMO, a Glock 42, 43, P365, LC380 or LC9 are not pocket guns either.

You might want to consider 380 with a deliberate, informed ammunition selection. The LCP, for instance, is an excellent BUG/pocket gun and reasonable choice. The Kahr CW380 and P380 are without doubt the nicest shooting micro-380s, but getting one that works is quite an endeavor, and not a journey I will go down again. The Kahr PM9 can be a little hit or miss, so don't be surprised if you buy one and it needs to be exchanged......but otherwise are generally reliable if you get a good one. I found mine by contacting a forum member that I could place some trust in, and even paid him extra to shoot another 150 rounds out of it before I bought it just to see whether it was still good to go.

That PM9 has been great for me since, and regardless of me only carrying it a handful of times per year, I can't bring myself to let it go just because I don't know if I'll easily come by another reliable one.

[Clay1]

I get it and that's why the Seecamp interested me. There really isn't anything else that small. I always thought that I heard that the LCP's were not pleasant to shoot either? For a guy who currently carries a comped 19.5 with a Surefire X300u, the pocket gun might just be a fantasy. I like the concept of one is none and while I have carried a pair of G19s in the past that is truly a PITA. This will take some more pondering for sure.

Thanks for your thoughts.


I think what you want needs to be hashed out a little better. Your wants are kind of all over the place.

Do you want something the size of a Seecamp, or do you want a (presumably reliable) compact 9? They're mutually exclusive.

The Kahr PM9 is probably the smallest 9mm out there that is still acceptably reliable for self defense....but anything larger than it is too big to really be called a pocket gun. I know that some people have very large pockets, there's a defunct member of the forum that used to pocket carry an M&P Compact.....but that doesn't mean an M&P Compact is a pocket gun. IMO, a Glock 42, 43, P365, LC380 or LC9 are not pocket guns either.

You might want to consider 380 with a deliberate, informed ammunition selection. The LCP, for instance, is an excellent BUG/pocket gun and reasonable choice. The Kahr CW380 and P380 are without doubt the nicest shooting micro-380s, but getting one that works is quite an endeavor, and not a journey I will go down again. The Kahr PM9 can be a little hit or miss, so don't be surprised if you buy one and it needs to be exchanged......but otherwise are generally reliable if you get a good one. I found mine by contacting a forum member that I could place some trust in, and even paid him extra to shoot another 150 rounds out of it before I bought it just to see whether it was still good to go.

That PM9 has been great for me since, and regardless of me only carrying it a handful of times per year, I can't bring myself to let it go just because I don't know if I'll easily come by another reliable one.

[Ed L]

Ed;

What broke on your Seecamps? Was it the same thing each time, or a different problem?

In reviewing some of my letters to the company, it seems to have been different issues.

According to my letter written on 5/10/1994, regarding the second Seecamp which I bought new--"The gun suffers failures to feed in which the round makes no progress on the feed ramp and the slide appears to be locked open. I've tried the gun with a number of spare magazines that all function perfectly in another Seecamp and the result is always the same. I put 200 rounds through the gun for the recommended break-in, and it is still not reliable."

It took over 8 months to be repaired and a finally a certified letter to the company. I believe they chose to send me a new gun to replace the one that I had that wasn't functioning.

Another note, back in the 1990s when I first bought the gun, they came with one magazine and it was almost impossible to buy spare magazines.

A few years later the firing pin broke on my original Seecamp with less than 400 rounds through the gun. I sent it back to the company and it took close to a year to get it repaired and numerous faxes and certified letters to the company.

I wound up selling one of the two Seecamps and putting the other one away.

Then in 2013 I took my remaining Seecamp to the range to shoot and the hammer strut broke within 20-30 rounds. This gun had about 300 rounds through it and had been in the safe for storage for over a decade I sent it back and got it repaired. I did not fire it upon getting it returned. I suppose it is in my safe somewhere.

Bottom line: I would not trust the company or the gun. This certainly isn't a gun that you take out shooting land fire lots of rounds through like a Glock/HK/ Beretta/Sig/CZ/etc. I would not expect a gun like this to have close to their level of longevity. It is a tiny gun without sights designed to be used slightly beyond arms length. But you should be able to fire enough rounds through it to make sure that it is reliable, and then take it shooting from time to time and put a few rounds through it without worrying about it breaking.

[GearFondler]

I get it and that's why the Seecamp interested me. There really isn't anything else that small. I always thought that I heard that the LCP's were not pleasant to shoot either?

"Pleasant to shoot" and "Pocket Gun" are virtually mutually exclusive terms.
A steel J frame with wad-cutters is reasonably pleasant and the airweight J's are more than tolerable as well with wad-cutters.
The LCP is tolerable but not pleasant... A Hogue grip makes it a lot better but still not pleasant.
Physics just can't be argued with... Small and light guns firing reasonably powerful ammunition are going to thump you.
If you are set on a small pocket auto the LCP is your best bet... Otherwise look into a Centennial or LCR.

[Drifting Fate]

Seecamp .32 - jewel like build quality but abysmal to shoot with my XXL hands. It's the gun I'm most happy to have sold.

Walther PP .32 - simply fantastic and pleasant to shoot provided the slide doesn't bite you. It's amazing how much difference there is between a .32 PP and a .380 PPK.

Makarov 9x19 - robust is an understatement. If I remember correctly it only has two grooves for rifling (not going to pull it out of the safe to check), but hyper-accurate and one of the fastest shooting guns I've experienced.

Berettas in general - the brand I constantly underestimate, I think I've loved everyone I've ever shot and/or owned (except the Pico, no one bats 1000). Oversized for .32/.380, they are easy to carry and easy to shoot.

[MattyD380]

There’s always the Boberg/Bond Bullpup:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E6aoJFKRX6A

It’s about the size of a PM9, maybe smaller. I actually had the Boberg version for a while. The second gun I ever owned... and I couldn’t shoot it worth a damn then. Thinking back, it had a very nice DAO trigger and the recoil wasn’t too bad. It would probably shoot very well for a pocket pistol. Apparently Bond made some minor improvements to the design... reports suggest it’s reliable with approved ammo.

[Clay1]

There’s always the Boberg/Bond Bullpup:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E6aoJFKRX6A

It’s about the size of a PM9, maybe smaller. I actually had the Boberg version for a while. The second gun I ever owned... and I couldn’t shoot it worth a damn then. Thinking back, it had a very nice DAO trigger and the recoil wasn’t too bad. It would probably shoot very well for a pocket pistol. Apparently Bond made some minor improvements to the design... reports suggest it’s reliable with approved ammo.

A thousand dollar micro - NO.

That's unreasonable for this guy.

[Whirlwind06]

A few fourm members speak well of the Kel-Tec P32. I had one years ago that I sold off in a "caliper consolidation" effort. It had decent accuracy and was very shoot able. I'm thinking of getting another.

I have the Beretta Pico first gen and it's very thin. Reading on other forums I think beretta has made some improvements on the trigger pull which is pretty bad on mine. But I can still get decent groups with it. I wish they had came out with the 32 barrel for it.

The glock 42 is actually pretty small and I pocket carry it at times. And it has the distinction of being the only 380 that I can do serious range time with. Shooting 150/200 rounds though it doesn't leave me with sore hands. Which I can't say about the Beretta or any of the other pocket. 380s I have handled.

Does anyone have experience with the NAA 32/380? They seem to be a knock of the Seecamp but maybe they actually work?

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[gato naranja]

"Pleasant to shoot" and "Pocket Gun" are virtually mutually exclusive terms.
A steel J frame with wad-cutters is reasonably pleasant and the airweight J's are more than tolerable as well with wad-cutters.
The LCP is tolerable but not pleasant... A Hogue grip makes it a lot better but still not pleasant.
Physics just can't be argued with... Small and light guns firing reasonably powerful ammunition are going to thump you.
If you are set on a small pocket auto the LCP is your best bet... Otherwise look into a Centennial or LCR.

"Too good to be true" and "no free lunches" become more applicable the smaller/lighter the pistol gets. I wish I had stocked up on new S&W 640's when I was in my 30's and not fooled around with the many "better mousetrap" pocket guns that have come and gone in this house. I'd be just as well armed - or close enough - vis-a-vis pocket carry and have a lot more in my 401k three decades later. Wear one out, go to the safe and get the top NOS one off the stack.

"Mmmmm... hindsight. It's always 20x20."

I keep my "NanX" (Nano with an APX grip frame) around partly because it is worth less on the trade-in market around here than a carton of cheap smokes, even though it works with about any 9mm ammunition a person could pick up off any given floor. I'll even pocket carry it in months that don't end in "r," but in the back of my mind I believe that there is one hell of a juggling act going on between spring rates, slide weight, angles of components, coefficients of friction, etc considering it is chambered in 9x19. Handguns much smaller than that make me nervous about where things might land on the "physics vs unicorns" spectrum.

g n

[Hambo]

I had two Seecamps and zero problems, but I didn't shoot them much. I found a spare mag at a gun show. It was not made by Seecamp, but it worked. Toward theend of my Seecamp years there was supposed to be another JHP that would feed, but I can't remember which one. IIRC it was an OAL issue.

Like Kelly LeBrock, the Seecamp was hot in the early 1990s. Now I'd look for something younger.

[BillSWPA]

A few fourm members speak well of the Kel-Tec P32. I had one years ago that I sold off in a "caliper consolidation" effort. It had decent accuracy and was very shoot able. I'm thinking of getting another.

I have the Beretta Pico first gen and it's very thin. Reading on other forums I think beretta has made some improvements on the trigger pull which is pretty bad on mine. But I can still get decent groups with it. I wish they had came out with the 32 barrel for it.

The glock 42 is actually pretty small and I pocket carry it at times. And it has the distinction of being the only 380 that I can do serious range time with. Shooting 150/200 rounds though it doesn't leave me with sore hands. Which I can't say about the Beretta or any of the other pocket. 380s I have handled.

Does anyone have experience with the NAA 32/380? They seem to be a knock of the Seecamp but maybe they actually work?

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In the early to mid 2000’s, the NAA .380 was one of the best pocket guns available, and was my most commonly carried gun.

They are reliable and built to withstand a lot of shooting. However, they are currently outclassed by the Kel-Tec and Ruger .380’s. Mine is my most heavily customized gun, with a trigger job by a well-known gunsmith (after which I started getting light strikes with some ammo), and Novak miniature tritium sights. Even so, when shooting it side by side with my Kel-Tec .380, I can make faster, more accurate hits with the Kel-Tec, even with the Kel-Tec’s terrible sights. Recoil is much less pleasant than the Kel-Tec.

I once rented a NAA .32. Recoil was surprising for a .32, and that example did not shoot to point of aim.

Customer service from NAA is excellent.



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[MistWolf]

A good friend of mine had three Keltecs- one was the folding carbine in 5.56 and the other two were identical pocket pistols which I think were chambered in 9mm. We broke all three just by shooting them at the range. The folding rifle broke in half right by the receiver and had to be replaced. I don't recall what broke on the pistols. No more Keltechs for me.

[GearFondler]

A good friend of mine had three Keltecs- one was the folding carbine in 5.56 and the other two were identical pocket pistols which I think were chambered in 9mm. We broke all three just by shooting them at the range. The folding rifle broke in half right by the receiver and had to be replaced. I don't recall what broke on the pistols. No more Keltechs for me.KelTec's.... Designed by a genius, Produced by high school Shop students.

[BillSWPA]

While I cannot speak from firsthand experience about Kel-Tec’s other products, their P-32 and P3AT are good guns for what they are. I have one of each, and both have worked well, although they required heavier recoil springs. Three other friends have P3AT pistols that work well for them.



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[LtDave]

One forum that I frequent lays the love down for the Seacamp 32. Just looking for another view of the small pocket carry piece. Anyone have an opinion of a Seacamp?

Another thread that is going on right now is talking about the larger Kahr, but they make a small gun as well like the PM9. I've heard the Seacamp 380 is miserable on the hand too, so many shoot the 32. I haven't shot the PM9 or the Seacamp 380 or 32.

Thanks

I've not tried a .380 Seecamp, but my Seecamp in .32 is unfun to shoot.

[Clay1]

I've not tried a .380 Seecamp, but my Seecamp in .32 is unfun to shoot.

I've heard the 380 is brutal and therefore one should go to the 32 but you think that the 32 is unfun. :( I get it, a small back up gun means that you already tried your primary and this is all you have left to use besides a blade. When you need this tool you are not in the "fun zone" to begin with. I always thought the little Smith Shield was OK but I am still after something smaller. I really don't mind the $550 price on a dependable firearm, but not willing to spend that on something that might work.

I keep coming back to "I've never heard of anyone who was in an actual fight that wished that they had a smaller gun with less ammo". I will admit that there is a real spot for a backup pocket gun to your primary. I have more research to do.