How to Grip a Handgun. Robert Vogel

[Amp]

Robert Vogel of Vogel Dynamics discusses the proper technique in gripping a handgun for fast and accurate shooting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=688tyvWxaYg

[runcible]

I find this to be really concise and well presented, and very agreeable in content. Thank you for taking the time to post it!

[okie john]

I find this to be really concise and well presented, and very agreeable in content. Thank you for taking the time to post it!

This.

Thanks!


Okie John

[Whirlwind06]

I've watched this a couple of times and I get most of what he is saying. But the roll your elbows up seems to reduce the support hand palm contact with the grip.

He's not saying roll elbows up to the point that the bottom hands aren't on the grip is he? I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something.


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[Bergeron]

I find that when I follow this guidance of rolling the elbows, the very bottom of my support hand is not touching the grip, but I do get extra-heavy contact at the top of the pistol's grip with the meaty part of the base of my thumb/palm area. I think that this is a worthwhile trade.

I try to use Vogel's grip, except that my thumbs remain more parallel, with my support thumb along the dust cover instead of all the way down onto my support hand index finger.

[Tokarev]

I find that when I follow this guidance of rolling the elbows, the very bottom of my support hand is not touching the grip, but I do get extra-heavy contact at the top of the pistol's grip with the meaty part of the base of my thumb/palm area. I think that this is a worthwhile trade.

I try to use Vogel's grip, except that my thumbs remain more parallel, with my support thumb along the dust cover instead of all the way down onto my support hand index finger.Depends on the gun in my experience.

For example I can use the upward elbow roll on a Glock but it doesn't work as well on the P2000. The extra piece of hand pushing on the upward side of the roll interferes with the slide catch. For the P2000 a downward elbow roll works best.

I think the key is the inward pressure from the support hand vs what part of the gun it is particularly applied to.

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[Alpha Sierra]

Robert Vogel of Vogel Dynamics discusses the proper technique in gripping a handgun for fast and accurate shooting.


I would call his technique "one of the techniques that work really well" rather than "the proper technique". There are other shooters who are even more accomplished than him and they don't do everything like he does.

[Clusterfrack]

I recommend trying the Vogel technique, because it can be instructive to do things even if you don't like the results.

For me, rolling the elbows

1) Is unnecessary for producing sufficient force on the gun
2) Causes tension and fatigue in my arms and shoulders
3) Because of (2) reduces my ability to transition quickly, smoothly, and precisely
4) Doesn't work well in a leaning position where one arm can't be extended as much as the other

[Alpha Sierra]

I recommend trying the Vogel technique, because it can be instructive to do things even if you don't like the results.

For me, rolling the elbows

1) Is unnecessary for producing sufficient force on the gun
2) Causes tension and fatigue in my arms and shoulders
3) Because of (2) reduces my ability to transition quickly, smoothly, and precisely
4) Doesn't work well in a leaning position where one arm can't be extended as much as the other

Absolutely try and test everything from everyone. That's how we end up adapting various microtechniques to form our own.

[jeep45238]

I've watched this a couple of times and I get most of what he is saying. But the roll your elbows up seems to reduce the support hand palm contact with the grip.

He's not saying roll elbows up to the point that the bottom hands aren't on the grip is he? I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something.


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No, he isn't saying that. I'd counter that if your hands are loosing contact with the gun at all when you roll your elbows up, you aren't gripping hard enough (or your grip strength isn't sufficient to begin with). It acts to change the force vectors at the hand/gun interface itself, favoring the top of the grip, which increases the PSI, which increases the friction, all else being the same. Rotating inwards would have the same effect with the friction bias being towards the base of the grip, versus the top.

[Alpha Sierra]

No, he isn't saying that. I'd counter that if your hands are loosing contact with the gun at all when you roll your elbows up, you aren't gripping hard enough (or your grip strength isn't sufficient to begin with). It acts to change the force vectors at the hand/gun interface itself, favoring the top of the grip, which increases the PSI, which increases the friction, all else being the same. Rotating inwards would have the same effect with the friction bias being towards the base of the grip, versus the top.

Losing contact between the gun and the bottom of the support hand when rolling the elbows outwards is also a sign that the support hand wrist isn't rotated (fwd) away from you as much as it should be. At least for me it is.

[jeep45238]

Losing contact between the gun and the bottom of the support hand when rolling the elbows outwards is also a sign that the support hand wrist isn't rotated (fwd) away from you as much as it should be. At least for me it is.

And it all goes out the window if your wrists aren't locked. Something I need to work on quite a bit ; in addition to getting my preferred high/forward grip on a 1911 without 'deactivating' the slide stop.

[Amp]

I recommend trying the Vogel technique, because it can be instructive to do things even if you don't like the results.

For me, rolling the elbows

1) Is unnecessary for producing sufficient force on the gun
2) Causes tension and fatigue in my arms and shoulders
3) Because of (2) reduces my ability to transition quickly, smoothly, and precisely
4) Doesn't work well in a leaning position where one arm can't be extended as much as the other

I agree. Rolling the elbows doesn't seem to help me grip the gun more forcefully and it is fatiguing to my arms and shoulders. It also makes me feel like I'm bound up when moving the gun from target to target. It doesn't work at all for me when shooting on the move.

[runcible]

I advocate for a similar methodology. I don’t speak for Robert.

Losing pressure and contact with the lower edges of one’s hand and the lowest portion of the pistol’s grip, incidental to rolling the elbows over, is generally a non-issue for me and those folks that I’ve taught. The gap opens up eventually, irrespective of the expressed grip strength of the hands, once the chest and back muscles are sufficiently engaged; it’s not even a contest. Maximum skin contact with the pistol is a method, not an outcome; and when measuring the efficacy of a shooting grip, outcomes are more properly measured in such terms as relative split times and/or the relative angular deviations or lack thereof in the wrist while firing.

Wringing pressure applied to the upper reaches of the pistol generally pairs best with a support-hand thumb advanced further forwards, without necessarily having to bend that wrist downwards to the limits of its range of motion. This also deconflicts most slide-stop/release levers , provides for superior trigger management, and creeps the overall shooting grip closer to the boreline thus yielding more efficient recoil management.

Given the requirement for both arms to be equally extended; whether that be at full extension, a compressed ready position at full-wring for engaging proximal threats, or anywhere in-between the two; it is desirable to work barricades with the choice in leading leg/knee being matched to what side you’re working (e.g. right leg advanced if working a right-side corner) and the shooter deepening their working of it by “lungeing” (e.g. feet remain generally put, lead knee bends more as the shooter drives off of their trailing foot raising the heel as they work deeper into it). The hips remain square with the unknown.