Should I turn a Kimber Custom into an ICQB clone? And how?

[RAM Engineer]

Back in the mid/late nineties when Kimber was more we’ll thought of, my father and I each picked up a Custom. Mine was eventually stolen in a home burglary. When my dad passed away 3 years ago, I inherited his. It’s bone stock. I’m toying with the idea of turning it into an ICQB (Det-1) clone. I will probably pass on the Dawson rail.

1. Should I?
2. What will be required? New grip and thumb safeties, Novaks, Gunner Grips, lanyard loop. Anything else? Parkerized finish?
3. Who would be a good smith to do this work?

Thanks,
Jason

[GardoneVT]

Back in the mid/late nineties when Kimber was more we’ll thought of, my father and I each picked up a Custom. Mine was eventually stolen in a home burglary. When my dad passed away 3 years ago, I inherited his. It’s bone stock. I’m toying with the idea of turning it into an ICQB (Det-1) clone. I will probably pass on the Dawson rail.

1. Should I?
2. What will be required? New grip and thumb safeties, Novaks, Gunner Grips, lanyard loop. Anything else? Parkerized finish?
3. Who would be a good smith to do this work?

Thanks,
Jason

As I understand the history, the USMC Det-1 guns were LAPD-spec TLEs with Dawson aftermarket rails and USMC serial #s, period. No other special stuff was done to the guns as they needed a fast turnaround.
Kimbers Warrior 1911 is basically the civil equivalent, so besides converting it to Seires 70 internally and installing Novak sights I cant think of what else to change.

IMO, this calls for an original build. Its probably best to consult with a shop like Wilson Combat or similar and truly make a custom build for what YOU want.

[Bergeron]

Do it. I recently experienced a similar situation. Please accept my condolences.

Do whatever it is to the gun that will cause you to use it more.

I’d say that Step 3 will inform Step 2. Dave Sams does MEU-SOC clones, so I would think he’d know what an ICQB gun would be like.

[M2CattleCo]

Novaks and a set of military brown Gunners.

[theJanitor]

90’s Kimber make great customs. Go for whatever config makes the pistol more usable/likable to you. My first custom commission was on a Kimber

As cool as Clone pistols go, none really tickle me. We know that they were never built to be pretty, and I can’t pay custom money to purposely make guns look ugly. But that’s just me.

[LittleLebowski]

I want some gunners...

https://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/grip-parts/grips/1911-simonich-g10-gunner-grips-prod55130.aspx

[Duelist]

I want some gunners...

https://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/grip-parts/grips/1911-simonich-g10-gunner-grips-prod55130.aspx

If I ever get a 1911, I’ll probably want some...

[vcdgrips]

I thought that at least some of the DET 1 guns had both the stock rubber Kimber grips and Pacs such as these?

https://www.brownells.com/handgun-parts/grip-parts/grips/gm-45c-grip-sku692545245-9765-25188.aspx

At any rate, it is your party. Trick it out and take a class or 3 with it.

Blessings to you.

DB

[JSGlock34]

Back in the mid/late nineties when Kimber was more we’ll thought of, my father and I each picked up a Custom. Mine was eventually stolen in a home burglary. When my dad passed away 3 years ago, I inherited his. It’s bone stock. I’m toying with the idea of turning it into an ICQB (Det-1) clone. I will probably pass on the Dawson rail.

1. Should I?
2. What will be required? New grip and thumb safeties, Novaks, Gunner Grips, lanyard loop. Anything else? Parkerized finish?
3. Who would be a good smith to do this work?

Thanks,
Jason

I'm more a fan of the MEUSOC builds, but the ICQB is a neat piece of military 1911 history. The Det-1 pistols were built on Kimber Custom pistols; these were Series 70 type guns that lacked the Swartz type firing pin safety instituted in later Kimber designs like the Custom II. These were not TLEs, which have a 30LPI front strap (the Custom pistols had a smooth front strap and were issued as such), but LAPD SWAT's adoption of the TLE likely influenced the USMC to consider a Kimber solution to the lack of sufficient MEUSOC pistols to equip the Det. The Warrior was Kimber's attempt to tie their marketing into the lineage of this pistol, but it differs significantly from the ICQB (particularly in the use of the railed frame).

The best sources for technical information on the ICQB the I have found are the December 2003 article in SWAT by Pat Rogers (https://www.scribd.com/document/234249589/200312-SOCOM) and the brief but comprehensive page and a half dedicated to the ICQB in Edward Scott Meadow's rare US Military Automatic Pistols Volume III (1945-2012) (https://www.amazon.com/Military-Automatic-Pistols-1945-2012-Meadows/dp/B00PHXGZF4). Page 147 of the latter includes a great "before and after" picture of the base Kimber, parts, and the resulting assembled ICQB. There is also some great information on DET-1 in general, to include the procurement of the ICQB, in DET ONE: U.S. MARINE CORPS, U.S. SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMAND DETACHMENT, 2003-2006 (https://www.marines.mil/Portals/1/Publications/DET%20ONE%20U.S.%20Marine%20Corps_U.S.%20Special%2 0Operations%20Command%20Detachment,%202003-2006%20%20PCN%2010600001300_1.pdf). This history also touches on the involvement of Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers in the training of the Detachment. Unsurprisingly considering this personal tie, the Vickers Guide: 1911 (https://www.vickersguide.com/1911) has great ICQB photos.

https://scontent-iad3-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/s640x640/18251442_685644178288617_5287154034715656192_n.jpg ?_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=109&oh=77f856a453efa9ce27e254feb655fa65&oe=5E81D047

The Dawson rail is the most difficult to source part (and you have already said you'd leave the Dawson out of the build). The ICQB used Novak night sights, a GI length guide rod, a lanyard loop mainspring housing, Simonich "Gunner" grips in Coyote, and Wilson 47 (7 round) magazines. The only other part to mention is the Ed Brown memory groove grip safety which was common to the USMC M45/MEUSOC pistols. I have seen photographs of ICQB pistols both with the Kimber part and retrofitted with the Ed Brown unit. Below depicts the Ed Brown build.

46013

Here's the ICQB requirements from the Rogers article

•Modified 1911 pistol.
•No requirement for a suppressor.
•Series 1 pistol. No passive safety is required.
•The slide has front and rear serrations.
•Rear sights are Novak Lo Mount.
•Front sight is dovetailed—sights have tritium inserts.
•Standard length guide rod.
•Sights set for M1911 Ball at twenty-five yards.
•The magazine well is beveled.
•Flat Mainspring housing with lanyard loop.
•High beavertail safety with memory pad.
•Ambidextrous thumb safety.
•Standard magazine release.
•Pachmayr GM-45CS grips. (Note that this has been superseded. The guns will be fitted with the Gunner Grips provided by Rob Simonitch/Strider Knives, in coyote brown.)
•Exterior is manganese phosphate in accordance with MIL-STD-171.
•Threshold requirement that a seven-shot group will not exceed four inches at twenty-five yards with M1911 ball.
•Trigger will be free of creep and 5 lbs. +/- 1 lb.
•The pistol will withstand the firing of 50,000 rounds without overhaul.
•Markings will conform to MIL-STD 130, Identification of U.S. Property.
•The serial numbers will be unique to the Det.

Other than installing the sights, I'm not sure there's any real need for a smith. I imagine Novaks can install their sights. I'm not sure I'd bother with the Ed Brown safety considering it appears that some were issued with the original Kimber grip safety, such as below.

46015

[BillSWPA]

The earlier Kimbers had the best designed grip safety I have seen. I suggest leaving the grip safety as is.



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[Cory]

If you facebook check out a group called Clone Resource Anonymous. They have a CRA US Side Arms group.

The first hand knowledge of things like this is astounding.

I would start fresh and keep Dad's as-is.

-Cory

[cigardad]

46040

Fine pistols.

[RAM Engineer]

Follow up questions:

1. I've heard that some "Series 1" Kimbers (ie., pre-series II), were either forged or machined construction, and that some of the blued/blackened guns were actually stainless steel instead of carbon steel. How can I determine if my particular gun is forged/machined or stainless/carbon? Is it as simple as calling up Kimber and asking them? I wish Chris Corino were still posting on forums, since he was the go-to-guy at Kimber back when Kimber was still ok.

2. Anyone with first-hand (or even second-hand) knowledge of KC's Kustom Creation guns? I see he offers replicas of each variant MEU(SOC) pistol and is an actual former USMC 2112 Rifle Team Equipment Repairman as well as the former Chief Instructor of the pistol section at the RTE shop at Quantico, Va.

Thanks again. Not sure what has spawned this single-stack 1911 service pistol obsession with me after almost 2 decades as a Glock-onlyist.

Jason

[TC215]

Follow up questions:

1. I've heard that some "Series 1" Kimbers (ie., pre-series II), were either forged or machined construction, and that some of the blued/blackened guns were actually stainless steel instead of carbon steel. How can I determine if my particular gun is forged/machined or stainless/carbon? Is it as simple as calling up Kimber and asking them? I wish Chris Corino were still posting on forums, since he was the go-to-guy at Kimber back when Kimber was still ok.

I think HCM is pretty knowledgeable about the early Kimbers...

[45dotACP]

Interestingly enough I just handled a Kimber Custom LW at the LGS and was surprised to find that it was a series 70 gun.

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[JSGlock34]

Not sure what has spawned this single-stack 1911 service pistol obsession with me after almost 2 decades as a Glock-onlyist.


The Marine Corps 1911s are a fun rabbit hole to go down, and as far as custom 1911s go, fairly easy to build. The Kimber ICQB is probably the easiest build as besides the sights and possibly the (optional) grip safety there is little smithing involved. The pistol is almost entirely a factory Kimber. The ICQB is a cool bit of history but the most distinctive things about it were the Gunner Grips and the Dawson rail.

The MEUSOC builds are much more complicated, as I think the Marines were on a mission to source parts from every manufacturer possible. Springfield (slide), Caspian (slide release/mag release), Novak (sights), Cylinder and Slide (hammer and ignition kit), Bar-Sto (barrel), Ed Brown (safety/grip safety), Wilson Combat (47 magazines), Pachmayr (grips), etc. Half the fun is tracking down all of the parts. I built one of these pistols starting with a Springfield Loaded (the PX9109L is a perfect starting point), swapping out parts over time, and eventually having a gunsmith fit the barrel and install the trigger parts. A fun project and a good shooter.

From a value proposition though, once you start crossing the $2K mark, I'd much rather purchase a Springfield Professional (which saw DET1 service) or one of the SACS USMC pistols (if SACS is accepting orders). In many ways the latter truly represents the pinnacle of the MEUSOC design.

I have a particular fascination with the SACS built 1911s that saw Army and USMC service.

[JSGlock34]

Speaking of the last of the military 1911s...not nearly as interesting as the ones that came before it, but still it is somehow fitting that the line ended with a Colt.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlZdF5Y7KPw

[Tokarev]

Fifty-two pages of stuff you may already have...

Pics in Post #1

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Handguns/The-MEU-SOC-45-ICQB-and-M45-Close-Quarters-Combat-Pistol-Updates-to-OP/49-86667/

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[JSGlock34]

One thing I've found interesting about the final evolutions of the 1911 in Army and Marine Corps service is how they diverged in certain features. The Marines favored fixed Novak sights, and eschewed magwells and front strap serrations, regardless of whether they were assembling MEUSOC pistols or purchasing factory firearms like the Kimber ICQB, SACS MARSOC, or the Colt M45A1. Even the Springfield Professionals that were procured by the USMC saw their front straps covered by the standard Pachmayr grip and the magwells replaced with a lanyard loop (not to mention having front cocking serrations added).

https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=39844&d=1562510229

Meanwhile the final 1911 in Army service (the SACS assembled PC9114) had front strap checkering, an integrated magwell, and recessed adjustable sights. 275 of these pistols were procured from SACS. Great information on this pistol in the Vickers Guide. The feature set seems somewhat contrary to conventional wisdom that equipment like adjustable sights and magwells are misplaced on a military firearm.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p403x403/29066471_1669365343151867_1544343761444667392_n.jp g?_nc_cat=106&_nc_oc=AQlkiQFRWzvMGltxJJSMsnvj4iqvlX5SXiEZQBvcIis c3Uw2m2l9Cvwri4advraRaiI&_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.xx&oh=a1e92e218b64b7da7488b63728c21347&oe=5E9C8FF4

[TOTS]

Hmm, JS, may have something to do with the fact that Marines can/will break darn near everything!!! No sense making it easier!

[03RN]

Fifty-two pages of stuff you may already have...

Pics in Post #1

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Handguns/The-MEU-SOC-45-ICQB-and-M45-Close-Quarters-Combat-Pistol-Updates-to-OP/49-86667/

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That thread always makes me switch grips to my pachymers:cool:

[Robinson]

That thread always makes me switch grips to my pachymers:cool:

The Pachmayrs actually work fine if you can deal with the added thickness. I have a set on my Rail Gun. But then, rubber grips are my favorites for 1911s even though I keep some wood stocks around. No finger grooves though -- yuck.

[45dotACP]

I do love me some pachy's

They do come in two thicknesses...one with a palm swell and one without. I like both but the palmswell version is IMO a little more unwieldy if you're trying to get at your mag release in a hurry

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[03RN]

The Pachmayrs actually work fine if you can deal with the added thickness. I have a set on my Rail Gun. But then, rubber grips are my favorites for 1911s even though I keep some wood stocks around. No finger grooves though -- yuck.

I just like having support for the plunger tube. If the pachymers did i would never take them off.

[Robinson]

I just like having support for the plunger tube. If the pachymers did i would never take them off.

Yeah I hear you on that one -- it's the real drawback of the Pachmayrs. That's one reason I've never used them on a carry gun, aside from fact my carry gun has front strap checkering. The rubber grips I use do support the plunger tube. I may even look for another solution for my Rail Gun at some point, but it wears the Pachmayrs for now.

[JSGlock34]

No idea whether the aforementioned PC9114 used the Caspian frame with the integral plunger tube, but I always thought that this was an improvement to the basic 1911 design.

[JSGlock34]

Hmm, JS, may have something to do with the fact that Marines can/will break darn near everything!!! No sense making it easier!

So, in regards to the USMC use of Novak fixed sights over the Army use of Bo-Mar adjustable, conventional wisdom is that the fixed sights would be more durable.

Pilot Mt. Arms Delta 1911 – Built By Former Member of Delta Force (https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/pilot-mt-arms-delta/)

The above linked article describes a custom 1911 builder who produces pistols that appear very similar to the PC9114; the article suggests that the pistols used by the builder while in the Army were the generation prior to the introduction of the Caspian light rail frame with the integrated magwell. I thought this excerpt was interesting...

Fire control components were improved, different operating controls were tested, and the guns got better. One such problem was that the Novak sights were shooting loose. As a result, the Unit adopted the fully adjustable Bomar rear sight that was “buried” in the slide for a low profile. The Unit transitioned to rail guns after Brian retired.

Interestingly, STI is reviving this "buried" adjustable sight design for their new Staccato Ps. They previously used this sight design for the .40 2011s that briefly succeeded the PC9114 in service.

[Robinson]

So, in regards to the USMC use of Novak fixed sights over the Army use of Bo-Mar adjustable, conventional wisdom is that the fixed sights would be more durable.

Pilot Mt. Arms Delta 1911 – Built By Former Member of Delta Force (https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/pilot-mt-arms-delta/)

The above linked article describes a custom 1911 builder who produces pistols that appear very similar to the PC9114; the article suggests that the pistols used by the builder while in the Army were the generation prior to the introduction of the Caspian light rail frame with the integrated magwell. I thought this excerpt was interesting...

Fire control components were improved, different operating controls were tested, and the guns got better. One such problem was that the Novak sights were shooting loose. As a result, the Unit adopted the fully adjustable Bomar rear sight that was “buried” in the slide for a low profile. The Unit transitioned to rail guns after Brian retired.

Interestingly, STI is reviving this "buried" adjustable sight design for their new Staccato Ps. They previously used this sight design for the .40 2011s that briefly succeeded the PC9114 in service.

I could be wrong, but I think that "buried" Bomar-style rear sight design more or less lives on in the Springfield Armory TRP Operator too.

[RAM Engineer]

I could be wrong, but I think that "buried" Bomar-style rear sight design more or less lives on in the Springfield Armory TRP Operator too.

Now that actual "Bo-Mar" sights are no more, who is the preferred maker of Bo-Mar style sights now? Dawson, Kensight, LPA, Caspian, Wilson, Ed Brown, etc?

[Robinson]

Now that actual "Bo-Mar" sights are no more, who is the preferred maker of Bo-Mar style sights now? Dawson, Kensight, LPA, Caspian, Wilson, Ed Brown, etc?

I've seen the ones made by Kensight and Fusion Firearms and they look like good parts. Colt's are excellent, but I don't know of a source for them.