Glock 21 Gen 4 Lack of Reliability/Durability?

[GlorifiedMailman]

I've fallen in love with my Glock 21 Gen 4 and it's 14 shots of .45 Auto. Over 2200 rounds without cleaning and no stoppages/malfunctions/breakages has made me start to consider it as a contender for a serious use pistol.

However, upon reading about it more, I see where over the years the G21 has been poo-poo'd on by two high-profile individuals in particular, and two large police agencies. Portland PD and the LAPD withdrew their G21's from service because of malfunctions, and in Portland's case, some Kaboom incidents. This was in the 2005-2006 time period from what I can gather.

I've found posts in the same time period from our very own DocGKR in various places also talking about the G21 not being a durable and reliable service-grade pistol. However, I have seen where he's said in more recent years that the G21 Gen 4 is a good pistol, and he recommends it as one of the best choices if an LE agency/department is going to use a .45 Auto pistol (along with the M&P 45 and HK45).

I've also seen where Larry Vickers decried the G21 in the early 2000's as being "the worst gun Glock makes" and "a dog" after a non-scientific sand test.

It seems that even DocGKR has given the G21 Gen 4 the stamp of approval, but it's made me start to wonder about it. I thought I'd tap into the pool of experience shared by many here who may have dealt with the G21 professionally (particularly interested in the Gen 4). It's my understanding that certain SWAT teams have used it extensively, and it has been widely issued to many PD's over the years?

Is this a durable, reliable .45 Auto for the long haul? I would like the answer to be yes based on my very limited sample of the several I've owned over the years, but I'd like to hear the thoughts of those with perhaps more experience than I. I like the idea of a tough, reliable, proven 14-shot .45

[HopetonBrown]

I'm just not seeing the point in 2019 to a gun designed around a different caliber, shooting a 50% more expensive bullet.

[GlorifiedMailman]

I'm just not seeing the point in 2019 to a gun designed around a different caliber, shooting a 50% more expensive bullet.

This isn't really about caliber so much as the pistol's durability and reliability itself irrespective of all other factors. I know that 9mm will serve just as well with far less expense.

[Totem Polar]

Last I heard, Anchorage PD issued the 21. It’s been a while though.

At any rate, you might enjoy this:

http://www.survival-spot.com/survival-blog/glock-21-torture-test/

[HopetonBrown]

I know that 9mm will serve just as well with far less expense.

Can I ask what's the point then?

[call_me_ski]

I always assumed that because the large frame Glock started life as a 10mm and was then rechambered for the relatively easy going .45 that they should be bomb proof. Never really cared enough to look into beyond that.

[pooty]

I'm just not seeing the point in 2019 to a gun designed around a different caliber, shooting a 50% more expensive bullet.

Haven't yet done this myself, but I've read that 45ACP is not only easier to reload (fewer steps). the brass can be safely reused over twenty times.

[SW CQB 45]

We have been in G21 (Gen 2) since 1992.

My first issued G21 was replaced at 17 years.

Originally we had issues with old squared nose Hydra-shoks not feeding but it miraculously it fixed itself.

We were part of the group that had to send the slides in for 15 degree cuts for new extractors since we were breaking them.

We upgraded around 2011 with SF and later Gen 4.

I always got complaints that the G21 was too big..... so me and the SWAT Commander were the driving force to slowly switch out to G17/19. It was a 5 year program and I was part of the last to be issued. I just got my Gen G19 Ameriglo.

Two die hards are buying their 2011 issued G21s to continue to carry on duty.

My original AFN710 G21 had alot of rounds through the tube in 17 years. It had a plus trigger bar to pass inspection.

Just make sure to get your G21 inspected annually. I have seen fails to fire due to ammo quality. The tight wad captain back then would buy commercial bagged reloads, Wolff and other off brands that would not go bang. Never had that issue with quality FMJ like Federal or Speer.

[GlorifiedMailman]

Can I ask what's the point then?

Pooty got some of it.

I recently inherited a large amount of .45 Auto ammunition and reloading supplies. An ungodly amount of factory-loaded rounds, and enough reloading components to last me years of a relatively brisk shooting schedule. The Glock 21 Gen 4 is the only pistol I have that can shoot it at the moment, and so far it's the most "tested" .45 I've ever had with over 4k rounds without a single stoppage, malfunction, or breakage. However, I prefer to look at not only how my personal experience with a small sample size performs, but also how a pistol model performs in large issued numbers to determine whether it's truly proven to be durable and reliable or not.

Another factor is that, after months of shooting my G21 Gen 4 side by side with several examples of G17's and G19's, I find it noticeably easier to shoot more accurately with the 21. I don't know why this is considering I have many thousands of more rounds through 9mm Glocks than the 21, but there's no arguing that my hits are better despite the larger recoil. Maybe this will change in the future, but as of now this is the way things are.

SW CQB 45: Thank you for the feedback. That's good to hear.

[KevH]

I've owned four Glock 21's (one that I've had continuously and three that were backups that I've been talked into selling by friends). I've had LOTS of experience with the gun. Contrary to what some have said I have found it to be an extremely reliable platform.

LAPD had issues with light strikes with some ammo. Glock's answer was an updated trigger bar (marked 4256-1, replacing 4256) which has a little longer cruciform to give the striker more oomph. In a properly maintained guns, and from reliable sources, I haven't heard about any other issues.

I personally switched from a Glock 21 to a 1911 (for no other reason than because I could) and then to a Glock 17 (I was a K9 handler than wanted the most capacity in the lightest gun to shoot one handed).

Is the Gen2 G21 a good reliable gun? Yes
Is the Gen3 G21 a good reliable gun? Yes
Is the Gen4 G21 a good reliable gun? Yes

Will I buy a Gen5 G21 if/when they make one? You bet.

[Navin Johnson]

I've fallen in love with my Glock 21 Gen 4 and it's 14 shots of .45 Auto. Over 2200 rounds without cleaning and no stoppages/malfunctions/breakages has made me start to consider it as a contender for a serious use pistol.

However, upon reading about it more, I see where over the years the G21 has been poo-poo'd on by two high-profile individuals in particular, and two large police agencies. Portland PD and the LAPD withdrew their G21's from service because of malfunctions, and in Portland's case, some Kaboom incidents. This was in the 2005-2006 time period from what I can gather.

I've found posts in the same time period from our very own DocGKR in various places also talking about the G21 not being a durable and reliable service-grade pistol. However, I have seen where he's said in more recent years that the G21 Gen 4 is a good pistol, and he recommends it as one of the best choices if an LE agency/department is going to use a .45 Auto pistol (along with the M&P 45 and HK45).

I've also seen where Larry Vickers decried the G21 in the early 2000's as being "the worst gun Glock makes" and "a dog" after a non-scientific sand test.

It seems that even DocGKR has given the G21 Gen 4 the stamp of approval, but it's made me start to wonder about it. I thought I'd tap into the pool of experience shared by many here who may have dealt with the G21 professionally (particularly interested in the Gen 4). It's my understanding that certain SWAT teams have used it extensively, and it has been widely issued to many PD's over the years?

Is this a durable, reliable .45 Auto for the long haul? I would like the answer to be yes based on my very limited sample of the several I've owned over the years, but I'd like to hear the thoughts of those with perhaps more experience than I. I like the idea of a tough, reliable, proven 14-shot .45



Once again, Really?

[KevH]

Another factor is that, after months of shooting my G21 Gen 4 side by side with several examples of G17's and G19's, I find it noticeably easier to shoot more accurately with the 21. I don't know why this is considering I have many thousands of more rounds through 9mm Glocks than the 21, but there's no arguing that my hits are better despite the larger recoil. Maybe this will change in the future, but as of now this is the way things are.

SW CQB 45: Thank you for the feedback. That's good to hear.

I remember Mas Ayoob writing in an article long ago that he thought the barrels on Glock's 45's were more accurate than their other guns.

After all my playing with G21's and also shooting a G20 with a 40 S&W barrel, I'm convinced that the large grip and heavy slide that people love to hate is what makes the guns so damn shootable.

[1slow]

I shot 10,000 rounds a year through several GL21s 1990-1998 no issues.

I shot 10,000 rounds a year through several GL30s 1998-about 2008 broke 2 slide stop springs, 3 trigger springs (on the same GL30) 2 take down springs.

I had very little trouble.

They were all pre light rail pistols.

[HCM]

I've fallen in love with my Glock 21 Gen 4 and it's 14 shots of .45 Auto. Over 2200 rounds without cleaning and no stoppages/malfunctions/breakages has made me start to consider it as a contender for a serious use pistol.

However, upon reading about it more, I see where over the years the G21 has been poo-poo'd on by two high-profile individuals in particular, and two large police agencies. Portland PD and the LAPD withdrew their G21's from service because of malfunctions, and in Portland's case, some Kaboom incidents. This was in the 2005-2006 time period from what I can gather.

I've found posts in the same time period from our very own DocGKR in various places also talking about the G21 not being a durable and reliable service-grade pistol. However, I have seen where he's said in more recent years that the G21 Gen 4 is a good pistol, and he recommends it as one of the best choices if an LE agency/department is going to use a .45 Auto pistol (along with the M&P 45 and HK45).

I've also seen where Larry Vickers decried the G21 in the early 2000's as being "the worst gun Glock makes" and "a dog" after a non-scientific sand test.

It seems that even DocGKR has given the G21 Gen 4 the stamp of approval, but it's made me start to wonder about it. I thought I'd tap into the pool of experience shared by many here who may have dealt with the G21 professionally (particularly interested in the Gen 4). It's my understanding that certain SWAT teams have used it extensively, and it has been widely issued to many PD's over the years?

Is this a durable, reliable .45 Auto for the long haul? I would like the answer to be yes based on my very limited sample of the several I've owned over the years, but I'd like to hear the thoughts of those with perhaps more experience than I. I like the idea of a tough, reliable, proven 14-shot .45

So, I typed out the response below, and I didn’t delete it in case someone might find it useful, but given the number of these type of threads you have started, I have to question whether you’re sincerely asking or you are trolling us.

If you are sincere, you need to read the following which was posted on the pistol training.com blog by the founder of pistol forum, the late Todd Luis Green.

http://pistol-training.com/articles/trust-no-one-an-insiders-perspective


Trust No One: an insider’s perspective
Trust No One
by Todd Louis Green, pistol-training.com

Trying to decide which pistol to buy? If so, you’re probably looking for one that is guaranteed to be durable and reliable. Well, I’ve got bad news for you. There is no such gun. The day when you could point to a particular brand or model and be certain it would work 100% out of the box and last forever is gone.

After ten years in the firearms industry, including jobs at two major prestigious gun manufacturers, I have come to a very simple conclusion: no one makes a gun that you can be certain will work. Bias and personal preferences aside, most of the major manufacturers are more or less equal nowadays in quality. It wasn’t always that way, but as price became an increasingly important factor in buying decisions of both individuals and government entities, everything changed.

As major gun companies began losing marketshare to Glock, surveys of customers made it very clear that price was one of the driving factors. So what could gun companies do? They had to start competing on price.

The result is, throughout the industry, reduced attention to quality. Both companies I worked for, when I started, had a strict policy of test-firing every single pistol that left the factory floor. Each gun was subjected to two or three full magazines of shooting before it was given the stamp of approval. By the time I left each job, both companies had stopped test-firing pistols destined for the commercial (non-law enforcement, non-military) markets … and in some cases, they stopped testing the LE guns, as well. Why? Test-firing costs a lot of money. You need a range, specially trained and equipped employees, and of course, ammo … lots of ammo. Test-firing a pistol easily adds $25 or more to the price you pay at the gun shop.

But you can guess what happens when companies skip the step in production validating that a product actually works. The number of inferior guns goes way up. Duh! But gun companies are ok with that, because so few handguns ever see 10,000 or even 1,000 rounds of use. Most problems never materialize, or they don’t appear until years down the road when it’s either too late or too bothersome for the owner to deal with. So while gun companies are going to have a higher percentage of guns showing problems, that expense is offset by the savings they get from cutting production costs. In other words, low quality saves them enough money to deal with the occasional squeaky wheel gun owner.

Some people think that brands and models which have been around a long time are not as subject to these problems. One friend of mine has adopted what he calls The Five Year Rule … he won’t carry or depend on a new design until it’s been on the market for five years so that all the bugs can be worked out. That sounds smart in theory, but in reality it just doesn’t matter. How come? Glad you asked.

Gun companies are constantly changing their dimensional specifications, materials, parts vendors, and quality control procedures. Beretta, Glock, H&K, SIG, S&W … everyone is making changes all the time and often to major components. The gun you think comes with a precise cold hammer forged barrel made in Europe now may actually come with a much less expensive and totally unproven barrel that was made on an EDM machine in Canada due to a production change made last year. Your pistol of choice might come with that brand new stainless trigger bar (which replaced the tried & tested carbon steel version used for decades) that’s too soft because the manufacturer hasn’t exactly figured out the proper heat treating process yet.

Doubt it’s true? Go to any brand-specific forum and look around. Complaints abound. Sure, there are still some who drink the kool-aid, and even some who want to force the kool-aid down other people’s throats. But you’ll hear about broken rails and springs at Glock Talk, improperly assembled guns or poor finishes at SIGForum, or mag drops and feeding problems at MP-pistol.com. Not every day, but read about the problems people have experienced over the past few months and you’ll see that no brand is immune to mistakes.

As for law enforcement agencies, it’s easy to identify departments having one serious problem or another with just about every model of every brand of gun in service if you know where to look and who to talk to. Finish flaking off firing pin blocks, out-of-spec chambers, broken hammer struts … even high-profile customers are subject to problems ranging from the annoying to the catastrophic.

So perhaps it really is worth the money to spend a fortune on a custom 1911. But wait! Within the past year I’ve seen problem guns come from the biggest and most respected names in the 1911 world like Les Baer, Wilson, and Nighthawk, too. Having a $500 service pistol experience trouble is one thing. If I just plopped down $3,000 for a custom 1911 that couldn’t reliably feed and fire, I would lose my mind.

You may think I sound like Chicken Little crying “the sky is falling,” but that’s not really true. After all, I carry one of these things (actually, two of them) every single day, too. But I don’t expect any gun to be perfect. Everything gets tested before it leaves the house in my holster. And even then, I’ve managed to suffer breakages and failures in just about every brand of handgun: Beretta, Glock, Heckler & Koch, SIG, Smith & Wesson, and Taurus.

picture borrowed from excaliburworld.comWe want to believe that the gun we carry is Excalibur, perfect in every way and indestructible. Truth is, most of the (insert your favorite brand here) guns being produced will never give you a bit of trouble. But they are all mechanical devices designed and built by humans, subject to the same Mr. Murphy as everything else in life. There are no exceptions. We should stop pretending otherwise.



The issues with LAPD and Portland G 21 or with Gen3s. Not to mention 2006 was 13 years ago. All gun companies have ups and downs in quality. During the mid to thousands all Glock models had some issues due to Glock switching out to new and cheaper suppliers of small parts. At that time clock serial numbers were three letters and three numbers. Sometime after the M prefix Glock change the finish on their slides and began having some issues attributed to tolerance stack and or quality control in their small parts. These issues have since been addressed.


The cults of personality in the gun industry are a topic for their own thread. There are gun personalities in certain circles that will tell you the Springfield Armory XD and 45 is the best polymer frame striker fired 45 auto. Personally I think that’s absolute horseshit but opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. You’ve been warned.

The reality is if you shoot anything enough It will break or experience some type of failure. If you educate yourself and perform proper preventative maintenance you can minimize this.

Everyone also has their own definition of “hard use. “ For some people 2200 rounds is a lifetime of shooting for others it is a week or so.

You also need to understand the Glock 21 is a service pistol designed to shoot full power service ammo. If you want to reload for it you will need to duplicate service ammo. If you want it to run reduced power practice loads like those discussed in the recent 45 minor thread You will need to re-spring the gun.

[Squib308]

my G30SF, G41 and G21 gen 4 have all been 100% reliable over combined ~5k rounds. zero stoppages. if 45acp is the plan I would absolutely carry any of the glock models. the M&P 45 gen 1 was also a fine shooting pistol but the G41 made it irrelevant to me.

[Cypher]

However, I prefer to look at not only how my personal experience with a small sample size performs, but also how a pistol model performs in large issued numbers to determine whether it's truly proven to be durable and reliable or not.


What does it matter what other Glock 20 ones do. If the one you have works run with it

[Hambo]

Haven't yet done this myself, but I've read that 45ACP is not only easier to reload (fewer steps). the brass can be safely reused over twenty times.

That's bullshit. The process doesn't change from one cartridge to another. As far as brass life goes, I haven't seen a huge difference between the two.

[Trooper224]

My old agency transitioned from the Sig P220 to the G21 around 1995-1996 (can't remember exactly since I've slept a time or two since then). We initially had major reliability problems with the guns. This was due entirely to a defective magazine design. Glock admitted to knowing about it after the fact and took about six months to get new mags out to us (the primary reason why I've never owned a Glock and probably never will). After the new mags arrived the guns gave good service. The only complaint came from girly handed types who didn't like the size. I was on SWAT at the time and my sample had a round count numbering in the many thousands when I turned it in years later, far more than the majority of 21s will ever see. In all that time I can only remember one light primer strike. Overall, the gun was liked enough by the troops that when replacement time came it was succeeded by the G21SF. I wouldn't worry about it.

[Alpha Sierra]

Haven't yet done this myself, but I've read that 45ACP is not only easier to reload (fewer steps). the brass can be safely reused over twenty times.

Fewer steps compared to what? Not compared to any other straight walled handgun cartridge.

45 ACP brass doesn't last any longer, on average, than any other straight walled pistol cartridge case when it comes to how many times it can be reloaded.

[JonInWA]

The earlier LAPD issues had a lot to do with sludge-induced firing pin drag/weak strikes caused by oil being added to one or both holes accessing the firing pin channel, a hold-over from the previous issue gun's (Beretta 92) cleaning and lubrication guidance. That occurred a long time ago-without checking my notes, I think around 2006. The replacement G21 triggerbar designed for LAPD later became the standard one for the G21 .

I discussed in some detail with Larry Vickers (in an email exchange) his "shake and bake sandbag test" which was the origin of his loathing of the G21. While interesting, as I recall I don't believe that he specifically knew, or recalled excactly what G21 generation was "tested;" that's important because Glock incorporated some running changes to the extractors and firing pins which might have caused the "test" to have come out differently. Glocks without the running changes probably colored Vicker's impressions, but I'm pretty sure the changes had been incorporated prior to the sandbag test, and Vickers was likely "testing" an obsolescent G21 (Glock would modify earlier versions into compliance, something Vickers neither apparently was aware of at the time or discussed) Also, the 1911 tested was tested in "hammer down" configuration, limiting the amount of media intruding into the action. Interestingly, Glock themselves provided (and publicized) Gen 3 G21s to an unidentified Tier 1 unit for at least one combat deployment in the sandbox, in which the G21s (according to Glock) were highly successful throughout.

Probably not coincidentally, Glock users in a media-intensive environment (and I'm not referencing newscasters....) use a but plug, either field-expedient (wadded up 100-mile an hour tape in the butt cavity) or purpose designed. Problem averted. According to a source in Glock US back in the day, when I referenced the intent for the butt cavity, I was told it was an intentional egress point for snow, ice or condensate, eminently possible in the European environment for which it was originally designed (Austria/Austrian Army). Use of a plug undoubtedly in my mind produced drastically different and much more operationally successful results in Vickers' "test."

Or it may have simply been a manufacturing/molding expedient to simplify/save money in the molding/manufacturing process; my supposition.

As I recall, the problems experienced by Portland PD with their G21s had everything to do with their issue cartridges, Federal Hydra Shok as I recall. I believe HP White Labs did the testing and analysis and published the findings. Again, that was many years ago, and an earlier version of the Hydra Shok .45 ACP.

I consider Gen 3 (and slightly previous Gen 2.5 ones, the ones with the Gen 3 features except the receiver rail) and subsequent to be exceptionally proven and reliable.

Yeah, they're a bit bulky, and, at least for me, a bit harder to shoot accurately with speed without some serious practice. But exceptionally durable, reliable and accurate.

Best, Jon

[LockedBreech]

The 21 is extremely popular with LE in my region. I’ve been involved with the legal end of 2 different OIS where it functioned as intended, in one case 8 rounds rapid fire with one hand while the officer was driving. That said, anecdotes are anecdotes, and I defer to anyone with replicable and controlled data points


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mjolnir]

Haven't yet done this myself, but I've read that 45ACP is not only easier to reload (fewer steps). the brass can be safely reused over twenty times.

The steps are the same. It’s s low pressure cartridge, relative to .40 & 9mm so you may get a few more reloads but WHO really wants to find the limit of reloading brass? [emoji102][emoji88][emoji2375]


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[1Rangemaster]

GlorifiedMailman-a few points:
1) If you are past 2000 rounds on any gun, IMO, clean it if you are carrying it.
2) A GLOCK Armorer should inspect yearly, and the recoil spring should be replaced at 5000 rounds(their recommendation if I recall correctly).
3) Good ammo and mags are part of the function equation. Put crap in gun, get crappy results.

I’ve had a Gen2 21 since the early 1990’s. Shot matches with it and carried it. I have a Gen3; not much shooting, but I wouldn’t hesitate to carry it with vetted mags and factory ammo. I have been issued a Gen4 which went through 1000 rounds at a GUNSITE class. It was field stripped mid week and cleaned, lightly lubed-no issues. I had better eyes several years ago, and could ring a popper at 50 yards about 90% of the time. A miss would be on me and my trigger work.
If your example works, drive on, reload ammo carefully and don’t worry so much about what is on the internet sometimes...
No thing made by humans is perfect, and ALL brands have an issue from time to time

[KevH]

Haven't yet done this myself, but I've read that 45ACP is not only easier to reload (fewer steps). the brass can be safely reused over twenty times.

Reloading 45 ACP is no different than reloading 9mm (or most other pistol cartridges for that matter). It's just a bigger piece of brass with a bigger bullet.

Brass life is dependent on lots of factors, but twenty times is pushing it in any caliber. Don't be stingy with brass unless you have no choice.

[ralph]

Haven't yet done this myself, but I've read that 45ACP is not only easier to reload (fewer steps). the brass can be safely reused over twenty times.

Yes, easily, it depends on what load you’re using but if you’re reasonable and don’t load them to +P velocities all the time. .45 brass will last a loooong time, It still takes the same number of steps to load, as say a 9mm, but it isn’t at all difficult. I usually load them until they split down the side, and then pitch that case. Somewhere around the house I’ve got a couple of cases from WWI, that I picked up somewhere, got mixed in with my brass, and probably got loaded at least twice before I caught them... I’ve been loading.45 since 1980, its one of my favorites to load..

[Lost River]

I cannot comment on the Gen 4s, but the previous gens have been discussed here plenty. They run and run. I have put many 10s of thousands through mine and trust them completely. I went to John Shaw's Mid-South school one year and burned more than 1K a day with my issued Gen 3, only gave it more oil, never really cleaned it until the end and it ran like a top.

The mag issue was solved years ago, as has been discussed.

They work like a Gen 3 G17, only bigger.

[ST911]

Have seen a great many G21s in service with stellar reliability, some with impressive round counts.
Many are now switched over to G17/G19, and more can use those.

[SW CQB 45]

Over 2200 rounds without cleaning and no stoppages/malfunctions/breakages has made me start to consider it as a contender for a serious use pistol.

I want to add something to this statement....

I am the main armorer for the dept and got called to the range twice for separate incidents where G21s were tied up. We have around 8 armorers total who help with 150 Glocks.

The first one, the trigger was seized up. I called BS and responded to the range. Absolutely..... the trigger was fwd and could not be pressed. I am a pretty big guy and could not get it to budge. I had to beat the trigger pin out. There was so much dried slugged built up on the trigger pin and grooves.... it seized the trigger. We have yearly inspections but this one had been passed over and had not been cleaned in some time. I cleaned the trigger pin, oiled the pistol properly and it ran fine.

The second time..... we had a one shot Glock. I went to the range and immediately noticed the G21 was unusually dry. In fact.... it look like the oil had been removed as the finish was very dry. I oiled the pistol properly and it ran fine.

2200 rounds w/o cleaning for a duty/defense gun is asking for trouble.

[GlorifiedMailman]

Over 2200 rounds without cleaning and no stoppages/malfunctions/breakages has made me start to consider it as a contender for a serious use pistol.

I want to add something to this statement....

I am the main armorer for the dept and got called to the range twice for separate incidents where G21s were tied up. We have around 8 armorers total who help with 150 Glocks.

The first one, the trigger was seized up. I called BS and responded to the range. Absolutely..... the trigger was fwd and could not be pressed. I am a pretty big guy and could not get it to budge. I had to beat the trigger pin out. There was so much dried slugged built up on the trigger pin and grooves.... it seized the trigger. We have yearly inspections but this one had been passed over and had not been cleaned in some time. I cleaned the trigger pin, oiled the pistol properly and it ran fine.

The second time..... we had a one shot Glock. I went to the range and immediately noticed the G21 was unusually dry. In fact.... it look like the oil had been removed as the finish was very dry. I oiled the pistol properly and it ran fine.

2200 rounds w/o cleaning for a duty/defense gun is asking for trouble.

Good point. Just to make clear, I have since cleaned the Glock 21 down to the small parts, reassembled it after, and verified function. I only went 2000+ rounds for the 2000 round test the late ToddG had posted. I wouldn't carry a gun with 2000 rounds and no cleaning. I typically keep it religiously clean but wanted to see if it could pass the 2k round test without any issues, which it did.

[GlorifiedMailman]

GlorifiedMailman-a few points:
1) If you are past 2000 rounds on any gun, IMO, clean it if you are carrying it.
2) A GLOCK Armorer should inspect yearly, and the recoil spring should be replaced at 5000 rounds(their recommendation if I recall correctly).
3) Good ammo and mags are part of the function equation. Put crap in gun, get crappy results.

I’ve had a Gen2 21 since the early 1990’s. Shot matches with it and carried it. I have a Gen3; not much shooting, but I wouldn’t hesitate to carry it with vetted mags and factory ammo. I have been issued a Gen4 which went through 1000 rounds at a GUNSITE class. It was field stripped mid week and cleaned, lightly lubed-no issues. I had better eyes several years ago, and could ring a popper at 50 yards about 90% of the time. A miss would be on me and my trigger work.
If your example works, drive on, reload ammo carefully and don’t worry so much about what is on the internet sometimes...
No thing made by humans is perfect, and ALL brands have an issue from time to time

Thank you for the input. I take it with all this that the G21 now has years of widespread use with great results.

[GlorifiedMailman]

The earlier LAPD issues had a lot to do with sludge-induced firing pin drag/weak strikes caused by oil being added to one or both holes accessing the firing pin channel, a hold-over from the previous issue gun's (Beretta 92) cleaning and lubrication guidance. That occurred a long time ago-without checking my notes, I think around 2006. The replacement G21 triggerbar designed for LAPD later became the standard one for the G21 .

I discussed in some detail with Larry Vickers (in an email exchange) his "shake and bake sandbag test" which was the origin of his loathing of the G21. While interesting, as I recall I don't believe that he specifically knew, or recalled excactly what G21 generation was "tested;" that's important because Glock incorporated some running changes to the extractors and firing pins which might have caused the "test" to have come out differently. Glocks without the running changes probably colored Vicker's impressions, but I'm pretty sure the changes had been incorporated prior to the sandbag test, and Vickers was likely "testing" an obsolescent G21 (Glock would modify earlier versions into compliance, something Vickers neither apparently was aware of at the time or discussed) Also, the 1911 tested was tested in "hammer down" configuration, limiting the amount of media intruding into the action. Interestingly, Glock themselves provided (and publicized) Gen 3 G21s to an unidentified Tier 1 unit for at least one combat deployment in the sandbox, in which the G21s (according to Glock) were highly successful throughout.

Probably not coincidentally, Glock users in a media-intensive environment (and I'm not referencing newscasters....) use a but plug, either field-expedient (wadded up 100-mile an hour tape in the butt cavity) or purpose designed. Problem averted. According to a source in Glock US back in the day, when I referenced the intent for the butt cavity, I was told it was an intentional egress point for snow, ice or condensate, eminently possible in the European environment for which it was originally designed (Austria/Austrian Army). Use of a plug undoubtedly in my mind produced drastically different and much more operationally successful results in Vickers' "test."

Or it may have simply been a manufacturing/molding expedient to simplify/save money in the molding/manufacturing process; my supposition.

As I recall, the problems experienced by Portland PD with their G21s had everything to do with their issue cartridges, Federal Hydra Shok as I recall. I believe HP White Labs did the testing and analysis and published the findings. Again, that was many years ago, and an earlier version of the Hydra Shok .45 ACP.

I consider Gen 3 (and slightly previous Gen 2.5 ones, the ones with the Gen 3 features except the receiver rail) and subsequent to be exceptionally proven and reliable.

Yeah, they're a bit bulky, and, at least for me, a bit harder to shoot accurately with speed without some serious practice. But exceptionally durable, reliable and accurate.

Best, Jon

Is there anywhere I can find where Glock publicized the G21 being used by a "Tier 1" unit? I'd be very interested in seeing that.

This answer certainly sheds light on a lot of things, especially Vickers' test. I've not been a huge fan of Vickers, especially with how he treated DocGKR, but both of them at one time had regarded the 21 as an unreliable and not durable pistol which got my attention.

It looks like I'm worrying over nothing though.

[GlorifiedMailman]

So, I typed out the response below, and I didn’t delete it in case someone might find it useful, but given the number of these type of threads you have started, I have to question whether you’re sincerely asking or you are trolling us.

If you are sincere, you need to read the following which was posted on the pistol training.com blog by the founder of pistol forum, the late Todd Luis Green.

http://pistol-training.com/articles/trust-no-one-an-insiders-perspective





The issues with LAPD and Portland G 21 or with Gen3s. Not to mention 2006 was 13 years ago. All gun companies have ups and downs in quality. During the mid to thousands all Glock models had some issues due to Glock switching out to new and cheaper suppliers of small parts. At that time clock serial numbers were three letters and three numbers. Sometime after the M prefix Glock change the finish on their slides and began having some issues attributed to tolerance stack and or quality control in their small parts. These issues have since been addressed.


The cults of personality in the gun industry are a topic for their own thread. There are gun personalities in certain circles that will tell you the Springfield Armory XD and 45 is the best polymer frame striker fired 45 auto. Personally I think that’s absolute horseshit but opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. You’ve been warned.

The reality is if you shoot anything enough It will break or experience some type of failure. If you educate yourself and perform proper preventative maintenance you can minimize this.

Everyone also has their own definition of “hard use. “ For some people 2200 rounds is a lifetime of shooting for others it is a week or so.

You also need to understand the Glock 21 is a service pistol designed to shoot full power service ammo. If you want to reload for it you will need to duplicate service ammo. If you want it to run reduced power practice loads like those discussed in the recent 45 minor thread You will need to re-spring the gun.


I swear I'm not trolling. Just... OCD about certain things regarding personal defense and job weapons. Thank you for your answer, though. Somehow I missed that blog, but it makes things make a lot of sense.

I plan on reloading duty-powered ammunition for the most part, but I also got an ungodly amount cases of factory loaded stuff. He was stockpiling .45 Auto for decades.

Part of the reason I asked this question at the start was because I'm considering getting a police trade in Glock 21 Gen 4 as a dedicated trainer, and relegating my current 21 to carry. I wouldn't mind changing the configuration of a beater training pistol to run reduced power loads. Basically, I'm about to go all in on the 21 Gen 4 and want to make sure it's a sound decision, and the durability/reliability thing is the only factor that left any question.

[JRB]

Dude, I don't say this to be snarky. But stop fuckin' worrying and just start going to the range!

Sign up for a couple of good pistol classes from P-F recognized instructors. Put your considerable attention and focus on absorbing the most you can out of those classes. Don't be that guy that's asking tons of questions all the time, either.
Just go with the flow, follow the instruction diligently, and take corrections/directions from the instructor as it's given. Ask questions ONLY to ensure clarity and understanding, then drive on. Good instructors are worth the money for a reason and their programs are set up the way they are for a reason. Roll with it when you take those classes.

Stop, stop, stop with the endless 'what if' thinking. Improve your skill with shooting the pistol; not your mind-gaming and forward planning. You seem to have that covered. Developing your shooting skill will answer virtually all of the questions and concerns you've been expressing here.

Once you complete a couple of good pistol classes like that, you'll read these threads again and enjoy an embarrassed chuckle and head-shake at yourself before getting back to your reloading press or dry fire practice.

I would 100% ban yourself from agonizing over the firearms for even 5 more seconds until you get through at least ONE P-F professional's two-day pistol class.
Get a couple of good holsters for your G21. Buy as many factory Glock magazines as you think you need- then buy 10 more. Then buy a Glock tool kit and some spare springs/parts etc and learn how to use them.

Then go to that class, stop worrying and start going to the range!

[HopetonBrown]

I swear I'm not trolling. Just... OCD about certain things regarding personal defense and job weapons.

Spend 2020 being OCD about your shooting. Respond to this post with your current average FAST score and 25 yard B8, then periodically update us on your improvements, because "doubts about 9mm" and "Glock 21 Gen 4 lack of reliability/durability" isn't covering any new ground or improving your chance of going home safe at the end of your shift.

[JonInWA]

Is there anywhere I can find where Glock publicized the G21 being used by a "Tier 1" unit? I'd be very interested in seeing that.

This answer certainly sheds light on a lot of things, especially Vickers' test. I've not been a huge fan of Vickers, especially with how he treated DocGKR, but both of them at one time had regarded the 21 as an unreliable and not durable pistol which got my attention.

It looks like I'm worrying over nothing though.



There was a brief report from Glock's in-house organ in 2003"The Glock Reporter," pp. 1-2 covering the SpecOps deployment of 10 G21s for a 6+-month deployment to what sounds like either Iraq or Afghanistan. The G21s underwent an initial 500 round administrative break-in period, followed by some 3,000 rounds per gun in the actual combat zone, with zero issues. Basic cleaning apparently only occurred some 2-4 times during the deployment. The G21s were either/both carried concealed or in drop holsters. I think there was a slightly more detailed report in one of their Harris Publication Glock Annuals (pretty much the same thing, albeit a bit slicker)

Not a huge test/T&E, but a bit interesting. I tried to scan the article and place here, but no joy. The paraphrasing above covers the essentials.

Bottom line: Yes, you're likely worrying about nothing. Apply gun to practice and training. It, and you, will do just fine.

Best, Jon

[HopetonBrown]

file:///C:/Users/Jonathan%20Stein/Documents/GlockG2103.pdf

file:///C:/Users/Jonathan%20Stein/Documents/GlockG2102%202.pdf



Hey Boomer, we don't have access to the C drive on your PC.

[JonInWA]

Hey Boomer, we don't have access to the C drive on your PC.

No shit, Sherlock! I realized after copy/paste, gave up, and just paraphrased. See revised version above.

Best, Jon

[Jim Watson]

Pooty got some of it.

I recently inherited a large amount of .45 Auto ammunition and reloading supplies. An ungodly amount of factory-loaded rounds, and enough reloading components to last me years of a relatively brisk shooting schedule. The Glock 21 Gen 4 is the only pistol I have that can shoot it at the moment,

I find it noticeably easier to shoot more accurately with the 21. .

Overstudied.
You've got the ammo, you've got the Glock. So wear it out and you tell us how long it lasts.

[HTM]

At that time clock serial numbers were three letters and three numbers. Sometime after the M prefix Glock change the finish on their slides and began having some issues attributed to tolerance stack and or quality control in their small parts. These issues have since been addressed.


FYI

Glock has never outsourced internal parts other than coil springs. All coil springs are now and have been internally made for a several years now.

[HCM]

FYI

Glock has never outsourced internal parts other than coil springs. All coil springs are now and have been internally made for a several years now.

I’d be curious to know the source for this information but regardless of source for their small parts they have had problematic batches of small parts from time to time.

[wrmettler]

Back in the day, I attended several Vickers' classes. I enjoyed his classes very much.

During one break, we discussed pistols. My 1911 just shit the bed, and I had converted to a M17.
After an "Itoldyaso" Vickers said the M21 test he'd run several years before was conducted without a butt plug, and that he thought with the plug in place the M21 would have done just fine.
He was shooting a M19.

[L-2]

deleted

[LockedBreech]

Back in the day, I attended several Vickers' classes. I enjoyed his classes very much.

During one break, we discussed pistols. My 1911 just shit the bed, and I had converted to a M17.
After an "Itoldyaso" Vickers said the M21 test he'd run several years before was conducted without a butt plug, and that he thought with the plug in place the M21 would have done just fine.
He was shooting a M19.

This was a very startling post for a few minutes until I remembered the grip plug for the Glock is called that sometimes.

[wrmettler]

Oh man, I never thought about that.
I apologize if I've offended anyone.

Also, if the moderators want to delete this, please do so.

[LockedBreech]

Oh man, I never thought about that.
I apologize if I've offended anyone.

Also, if the moderators want to delete this, please do so.

I was just kidding man! I understood whatcha meant. Takes a lot more to offend me for sure.

[Trooper224]

Deleted

[Baldanders]

Back in the day, I attended several Vickers' classes. I enjoyed his classes very much.

During one break, we discussed pistols. My 1911 just shit the bed, and I had converted to a M17.
After an "Itoldyaso" Vickers said the M21 test he'd run several years before was conducted without a butt plug, and that he thought with the plug in place the M21 would have done just fine.
He was shooting a M19.


So why didn't anyone tell me this was essential shooting gear?


I would imagine caliber selection is very important.



On topic, glad to see the Glock I now want is basically OK. Thread title had me worried.

[Nephrology]

G21s are good pistols. I'll own one again eventually.

[Totem Polar]

So why didn't anyone tell me this was essential shooting gear?


I would imagine caliber selection is very important.

Also, you might have to squeeze harder, due to the extra weight, when things start moving around rapid fire.

Or, y’know... so I’ve heard.

[Baldanders]

Also, you might have to squeeze harder, due to the extra weight, when things start moving around rapid fire.

Or, y’know... so I’ve heard.

Make sure to press check.

[Dave T]

I was gonna say something, but this thing has gone to the toilet. (smile)

Dave