.22 TCM as a low recoil defensive cartridge

[spyderco monkey]

Lately I've been thinking about "what caliber and gun for recoil sensitive shooters." The elderly, some women, and just those who don't deal well with recoil being the target demographic.

And looking at it, it really seems like .22 TCM would be one of the best off the shelf options for a low recoil defensive pistol.

Using a 4" barrel as a velocity basis, we get the following:

.22 TCM = 40gr @ 2000fps = 355 ftlbs / Power Factor 80

.380 = 90gr @ 1000fps = 200 ftlbs / Power Factor 90

9x19 = 124gr @ 1150fps = 364 ftlbs / Power Factor 142

9x19 = 147gr @ 1000fps = 326 ft/lbs / Power Factor 147

With a power factor of 80, .22 TCM would have a bit less recoil then .380, and 45% less recoil them 9x19, while still retaining comparable energy to 9x19. This is born out by reviews, all of which comment favorably on the low recoil of .22 TCM.

In terms of ballistics performance, while we don't have much data, the data we do have is encouraging:
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/06/getting-to-know-22-tcm-through-clear.html

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/BDSBruce/Blog%20Photos%204/f4fd8f0e-f1df-4c6c-add4-3cf19e5b7193_zpsd488b35f.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/BDSBruce/Blog%20Photos%204/c99741d5-2915-47e8-a07f-fc7711a66092_zps7e5e6f30.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/d5wwT1t/Screen-Shot-2019-12-09-at-7-15-35-AM.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UZWRsUXZWc

The round produces good penetration and reliable expansion, even through 4 layers denim - something we typically dont see with .380. And of course, thats using the absolute cheapest projectiles possible. Loaded with a 40gr Gold Dot or Federal Fusion JSP, and expansion would likely be even better.

As far as ammo costs, .22 TCM JHP is going for around $0.29-$0.30 per shot. Thats more then 9x19 FMJ, but less expensive then 9x19 JHP. Its right at the point where it would be economically viable to use JHP as your primary training ammo.

The other advantage - especially for women or the elderly - is that the low recoil of the .22 TCM results in a correspondingly light weight recoil spring. Standard Glock is 16lbs; .22 TCM Glock conversion kit uses an 11lb recoil spring, making it that much easier to rack the slide. Similar in concept to the Shield EZ in that regard.

All in all, I think the .22 TCM would make for a really promising alternate caliber for low recoil shooters.

I'd personally love to see a 4" slimline pistol chambered in .22 TCM. Something like the Glock 48, or Kahr TP9:
https://i.ibb.co/XjBcXRx/TP9-NOVAK.jpg

[BehindBlueI's]

I suppose the counterargument is the .380 is available in a lot more guns the target demographic is more likely to carry or shoot. Are there affordable options the target demographic is willing to invest in, and what's the incentive over something like the Shield .380? Ammunition for a .380 is readily available at brick and mortar locations and there's plenty of data on how it deals with bone, etc. I wonder how many people who couldn't handle a .380 in a given gun could handle the .22 TCM instead? That's a fairly narrow envelope, I think.


I'm not saying it's not an option, just that it seems like an uphill argument.

[peterb]

How’s the noise and muzzle blast? a quick search found this:

“Recoil was next to negligible, but the muzzle blast was more than magnificent. Fireballs of .44 Mag. proportions were generated, but there was no intense pressure slap in the face. More importantly, I was hitting what I aimed at.”

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2018/3/28/review-the-22-tcm-cartridge/

Blast tends to increased the impression of recoil, especially for inexperienced shooters.

It does sound fun. :-)

[BehindBlueI's]

How’s the noise and muzzle blast? a quick search found this:

“Recoil was next to negligible, but the muzzle blast was more than magnificent. Fireballs of .44 Mag. proportions were generated, but there was no intense pressure slap in the face. More importantly, I was hitting what I aimed at.”

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2018/3/28/review-the-22-tcm-cartridge/

Blast tends to increased the impression of recoil, especially for inexperienced shooters.

It does sound fun. :-)

I've shot one but it's been awhile. It's a hoot at 100y steel since it's traveling so fast. I don't remember the noise or muzzle blast one way or the other so I left that metric out.

[Tokarev]

An interesting little cartridge.

Ballistically it looks pretty close to the 5.7X28. One is a stretched out .25 ACP case (the 5.7) while the other is a chopped and trimmed .223 (the TCM). One would have an advantage of higher mag capacity with the other would have the advantage of a smaller grip.

Down side to both is lack of ammo followed by lack of guns. As far as I know, RIA is the only source for .22 TCM pistols outside of having something custom made. And ammo, again as far as I know, is only available from Armscor. The FN is no better although there is a slightly better selection of ammo.

I read somewhere recently that FN had always purposefully kept Five SeveN production to a minimum to keep prices up and market demand high. I don't know if that's true or not. More likely is the gun is oddball enough that higher production rates aren't really needed.

[Baldanders]

By the same logic, tbe .32NAA (which I poo-poohed here recently) might make sense too, in a PM9 sized gun.

Sans giant fireball, and with more ammo availability, and a PM9-like platform...sure, I'm with you.

[Tokarev]

By the same logic, tbe .32NAA (which I poo-poohed here recently) might make sense too, in a PM9 sized gun.


I've never messed with the .32 NAA but I do find the little cartridge somewhat interesting. Would a .32 NAA JHP bullet out-penetrate a similar bullet in .380? And would the expanded .32 expand to more than .355" inches?

Here's really the only thing I've ever seen on the .32 NAA. I assume you've seen this?

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/32%20NAA/32%20NAA.html

And a possible source for barrels:

https://shop.innovativearms.com/product/32naa-conversion-barrel/

[the Schwartz]

I've never messed with the .32 NAA but I do find the little cartridge somewhat interesting. Would a .32 NAA JHP bullet out-penetrate a similar bullet in .380? And would the expanded .32 expand to more than .355" inches?

Here's really the only thing I've ever seen on the .32 NAA. I assume you've seen this?

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/32%20NAA/32%20NAA.html

And a possible source for barrels:

https://shop.innovativearms.com/product/32naa-conversion-barrel/

I wish that Brassfetcher would have provided a little more data than what existed in the linked article. Average recovered diameter, retained mass, and impact velocity along with a video of a test in 10% ordnance gelatin would have been nice to see.

[Tokarev]

I wish that Brassfetcher would have provided a little more data than what existed in the linked article.

Indeed. Not much meat there.

[Velo Dog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN0JnDn7OC4&list=ULotd57Ede070&index=226

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Ballistic%20Gelatin%20Tests/32%20NAA%2010%20Percent%20Ballistic%20Gelatin.html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Ballistic%20Gelatin%20Tests/32%20NAA%2020%20Percent%20Ballistic%20Gelatin.html

[spyderco monkey]

By the same logic, tbe .32NAA (which I poo-poohed here recently) might make sense too, in a PM9 sized gun.

Sans giant fireball, and with more ammo availability, and a PM9-like platform...sure, I'm with you.

I always liked the idea of .32 NAA. Unfortunately, while it does offer better penetration potential then .380 due to the higher sectional density of the .312 projectile, its still really of threshold level performance due to its lack of energy. And of course, for the low recoil factor, the other problem is that most .380's are tiny and have a fair amount of recoil.

But along those lines, another promising option is .30 Luger. This is the 9x19 version of the .32 NAA.

https://americanhandgunner.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/AHND17-LOAD-3.jpg

Most 9x19 pistols can be converted to .30 Luger, making it an easy low recoil option.

.30 Luger = 85gr @ 1250fps / 295 ftlbs = Power Factor 106

While this is more then the PF 80 of .22 TCM and PF 90 of .380 it's still a good bit less recoil then the PF 145 of most standard defensive 9x19.

A 85gr .308 has a sectional density of 0.128, nearly identical to the sectional density of 0.13 for a 115gr 9mm. And at 1250fps / 295 ftlbs of energy, we would have every expectation of reliable expansion and penetration using a well designed JHP.

The only fly's in the ointment being the lack of factory defensive .30 Luger JHP and .30 luger conversion barrels.....

[Tokarev]

I always liked the idea of .32 NAA. Unfortunately, while it does offer better penetration potential then .380 due to the higher sectional density of the .312 projectile, its still really of threshold level performance due to its lack of energy. And of course, for the low recoil factor, the other problem is that most .380's are tiny and have a fair amount of recoil.


The Brass Fetcher video linked above shows over 13" of penetration from a .312 85gr XTP while a 90gr .355 Gold Dot gives only 10.3"

There may have been some heavy clothing tests and/or stats given but I wasn't able to read his charts on my phone. But it seems in most cases the layers of clothing reduce bullet velocity thereby slowing initial expansion and helping with penetration. Depending of course on initial velocity the clothing can sometimes reduce bullet speed below its expansion threshold and/or plug the cavity.





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[spyderco monkey]

The Brass Fetcher video linked above shows over 13" of penetration from a .312 85gr XTP while a 90gr .355 Gold Dot gives only 10.3"

There may have been some heavy clothing tests and/or stats given but I wasn't able to read his charts on my phone. But it seems in most cases the layers of clothing reduce bullet velocity thereby slowing initial expansion and helping with penetration. Depending of course on initial velocity the clothing can sometimes reduce bullet speed below its expansion threshold and/or plug the cavity.

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As I mentioned, while .32 NAA is an improvement over .380, its still a 'threshold' caliber, where we will see some expanding and penetrating, others failing to expand, others failing to penetrate deep enough.

Brassfetcher considers it ballistically identical to .32 H&R Mag, and .32 h&r offers us some ballistic gel to show this effect:

https://i.ibb.co/Tg16xSx/32-h-r-and-32-naa-gel-test-info.png

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2019/5/30/the-underappreciated-32-magnums/

Through heavy clothing, 1x load meets penetration and expansion requirements; 1x expands and under penetrates; 1x fails to expand.

Speaking to this threshold performance, the 85gr Black Hills that did the best in the American Rifleman test above fails to expand in LuckyGunners test of the same load; only difference being 30fps.
https://loungecdn.luckygunner.com/lounge/media/32-mag-gel-test.jpg

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why-the-best-snub-nose-caliber-is-32/

We see similar threshold performance in .380 as well:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v391/BDSBruce/Blog%20Photos%205/72515396-cdb0-41f6-a9e7-edfdf179d941_zpsvfu0cubv.jpg

[Tokarev]

Different test media used. One was synthetic gel with the other being natural.

The XTP as loaded by Black Hills appeared to expand as expected while the same bullet as loaded by Federal did not. Velocity average for both is about 920 fps from the LCR. Does that mean that Hornady is making two different bullets for these or are we seeing manufacturing variables at play? A couple shots in gel really isn't enough data to fully condemn or endorse. But probably what this means is the XTP at just a tad over 900 fps is at its minimum expansion velocity.

Still, the variety of 32 H&R did as well (maybe better) than can be expected from a ridiculously short barrel and may be a better choice over the same sized firearm in 38 SPL.

These teeny tiny little guns are all a worst case scenario and are "comfortable" rather than "comforting." But if I can find something that will probably penetrate and maybe expand it would probably be my choice over some other stuff that probably won't penetrate whether it expands or not.

Interesting stuff and very fun to debate.


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[Velo Dog]

A sub-variant, the 22 TCM 9R, with a shorter, more deeply-seated bullet, is designed for use in Glock magazines limited to standard-length 9mm cartridges. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_TCM

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/1/23/armscor-introduces-22-tcm-9r-cartridge/

[Jim Watson]

I've seen one of those, shot it a little. Loud report, little recoil.

Two things to consider, do you think it is adequate or necessary? (Cooper once recommended the Jet to an expedition to a land where only .22s were legal for private possession.)
And, how much shooting will it take to establish reliability?

[Velo Dog]

https://youtu.be/oD5XVXVv0bo?t=5m9s

Around the 5 minute 9 second mark "The fireball is just unbelievable."

[TiroFijo]

I've seen one of those, shot it a little. Loud report, little recoil.

Two things to consider, do you think it is adequate or necessary? (Cooper once recommended the Jet to an expedition to a land where only .22s were legal for private possession.)
And, how much shooting will it take to establish reliability?

Most countries (all?) that restrict calibers to 38 spl, 380, or below for handguns, also prohibit expanding ammo, making high velocity/small calibers such as this moot for defensive purposes.

[JHC]

How’s the noise and muzzle blast? a quick search found this:

“Recoil was next to negligible, but the muzzle blast was more than magnificent. Fireballs of .44 Mag. proportions were generated, but there was no intense pressure slap in the face. More importantly, I was hitting what I aimed at.”

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2018/3/28/review-the-22-tcm-cartridge/

Blast tends to increased the impression of recoil, especially for inexperienced shooters.

It does sound fun. :-)

I like everything about that!

I was barely aware of the cartridge, barely on my radar.

[Tokarev]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGtjOOf1dxA&feature=emb_title

[Jim Watson]

Most countries (all?) that restrict calibers to 38 spl, 380, or below for handguns, also prohibit expanding ammo, making high velocity/small calibers such as this moot for defensive purposes.

Cooper made that recommendation over 40 years ago, regulations might have been different then.
But my main aim was to cite a big bore traditionalist who could find a use for the needle blower.

Even though Mr Harrell thinks the 1911 is a blowback action and I don't, he does point out something I have seen elsewhere, the guns don't work.

That Glock conversion with the TCM short functioned reliably while I was watching and shooting.

[octagon]

The idea of the 22TCM or 9MM version is interesting. A couple of thoughts on the idea.

Since these cartridges have a fairly significant muzzle blast and flash and a good number of defensive shooting involve psychological stops rather than physical maybe the extra blast and flash isn't such a bad thing. Also I would guess that these cartridges don't focus on low flash powder since their intended use isn't defensive as a primary concern.

Is there a reason to go with 22 TCM over one of the ultra lightweight 9MM offerings that shoot solid copper or HP 9MM projectiles in 50-60gr weights at 2000 FPS and don't require a change to the standard 9MM gun,magazine or rarer specialized ammo? It's probably a lot easier to ramp up production of 9MM in ultra light weight offerings than a newer bottleneck cartridge and projectile PLUS new barrels etc.. to run them in.

[the Schwartz]

The idea of the 22TCM or 9MM version is interesting. A couple of thoughts on the idea.

Since these cartridges have a fairly significant muzzle blast and flash and a good number of defensive shooting involve psychological stops rather than physical maybe the extra blast and flash isn't such a bad thing. Also I would guess that these cartridges don't focus on low flash powder since their intended use isn't defensive as a primary concern.

Is there a reason to go with 22 TCM over one of the ultra lightweight 9MM offerings that shoot solid copper or HP 9MM projectiles in 50-60gr weights at 2000 FPS and don't require a change to the standard 9MM gun,magazine or rarer specialized ammo? It's probably a lot easier to ramp up production of 9MM in ultra light weight offerings than a newer bottleneck cartridge and projectile PLUS new barrels etc.. to run them in.

Only if you want performance like this (taken from 5pins' testing of the load I believe that you are referencing):


45993

When shooting through heavy clothing the first round hit the block at 2043fps. The bullet’s fragmentation started at 2.5 inches and continued to the 4-inch mark. The bullet core penetrated to 11.75 inches and had a recovered weight of 29.3 grains. The recovered fragment’s weight was 16.6 grains. The second round had a velocity of 2058fps and the core penetrated to 10.25 inches. Fragmentation was 3.5 to 4.5 inches. The total weight of the fragments was 17.9 grains and the core was 27 grains.

I'd be inclined to pass on such performance.

[octagon]

Only if you want performance like this (taken from 5pins' testing of the load I believe that you are referencing):


I'd be inclined to pass on such performance.

It seems similar to the 22 TCM for depth of penetration. I would guess that the hollow point could be changed to have a smaller opening and/or going with a solid projectile to ensure enough penetration. At 10.25-11.75" it isn't way off from the recommended 12" minimum. I assume that was the HP design? The version I have seen have a pretty big HP opening and cavity which would make for really fast expansion,fragmentation at those velocities and thus shedding weight and limiting penetration. There was a solid (pointy) lightweight version but I can't seem to find it's details.

I wonder if a hollow base, hollow base with band in center of projectile or tubular design projectile (a la Blitz Action Trauma style)fluted like ARX but not fragmenting or a cross flute like Lehigh Defense Extreme Penetrator projectile could be used to keep projectile weight light but prevent excess fragmentation or eliminate fragmentation and just tumble or break in 2 pieces like some 5.56 rounds.


In a similar vein this type of round in a PCC would reduce muzzle blast and flash(likely) while moving both a foot farther away from the eyes and ears. Use in a compensated handgun wouldn't help with blast or flash and might make it worse but would make for an even lighter recoiling gun.

[spyderco monkey]

The idea of the 22TCM or 9MM version is interesting. A couple of thoughts on the idea.

Since these cartridges have a fairly significant muzzle blast and flash and a good number of defensive shooting involve psychological stops rather than physical maybe the extra blast and flash isn't such a bad thing. Also I would guess that these cartridges don't focus on low flash powder since their intended use isn't defensive as a primary concern.

Is there a reason to go with 22 TCM over one of the ultra lightweight 9MM offerings that shoot solid copper or HP 9MM projectiles in 50-60gr weights at 2000 FPS and don't require a change to the standard 9MM gun,magazine or rarer specialized ammo? It's probably a lot easier to ramp up production of 9MM in ultra light weight offerings than a newer bottleneck cartridge and projectile PLUS new barrels etc.. to run them in.

I also think the flash isn't much of a concern; for home defense (.22 tcm granny defender - "get away from my knick knacks!") it would hopefully be employed with a weapon light, and any modern LED weapon light is far brighter then a muzzle flash.

Now as far as the 50gr Liberty / 65gr ARX and Lehigh XD.

The biggest problem I see there is cost. These are niche, premium SD loads, costing $0.75-$1.25 a shot, with no training analog (there is no 50-65gr 9x19 target fmj to train with.) As such, a recoil sensitive shooter would have no way to train effectively with these loads.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1001575929

Whereas .22 TCM, at ~$0.30-$0.40 a shot, is in line with the cost of .45 acp and brass .223, making it affordable enough to train with.

[Velo Dog]

Is there a reason to go with 22 TCM over one of the ultra lightweight 9MM offerings that shoot solid copper or HP 9MM projectiles in 50-60gr weights at 2000 FPS and don't require a change to the standard 9MM gun,magazine or rarer specialized ammo?

I don't think so. 9x19mm really is a Goldilocks cartridge.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLCsQkEL9eQ

[10mmfanboy]

I didn't even know there was a glock conversion for 22 tcm until this thread. I'd like to mess around with the caliber! My guess is it has a lot of muzzle blast like 357 sig, which for new shooters might be even worse than slightly more recoil. In the same token if they are close enough to a threat they could blind them or set their clothes on fire if they are lucky :p

[spyderco monkey]

To give a sense of just how low recoil .22 TCM is, here's a Full Auto Glock in .22 TCM:


https://youtu.be/LqCLOJAb2EY?t=12

[Velo Dog]

To give a sense of just how low recoil .22 TCM is, here's a Full Auto Glock in .22 TCM:

Of course a machine pistol is controllable with TWO hands ;)

Check this video out at 2:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc4ZTlsusTQ

[Tokarev]

Internet rumor has it that Speer is releasing a 40gr Gold Dot 5.7x28 load in 2020. Stuff 20 rounds of this in the new Ruger-57 or the Five seveN and you have a handy field pistol.

[Tokarev]

Here's something I'm curious about and I wonder about its practicality in the 5.7. It appears to be a conventional cup and core pistol bullet.

It seems most people are loading Hornet or similar varmint bullets in the 5.7 and I have not seen anyone commenting on how this Armscor bullet has worked in the FN. I'll have to buy 100 and see how they shoot at 1,700 fps. A gel test is probably also needed.

https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/73083

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[Velo Dog]

It seems most people are loading Hornet or similar varmint bullets in the 5.7 and I have not seen anyone commenting on how this Armscor bullet has worked in the FN.

I don't know how it would perform better than .22 TCM and if this clear gel test is any indication of actual terminal ballistics it may not even equal .38 Special wadcutter in penetration or wounding potential under all circumstances.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UZWRsUXZWc

Not bad for a twenty shot .22 autoloader, I guess, but unnecessary for rabbit and squirrel while still being a little underpowered for coyote or larger animals.