Japanese Military adopts HK SFP9 (VP9)

[HCM]

The Japanese Military has announced they are replacing their aging folded slide SIG P220s with the HK SFP9. The SFP9 is HK’s designation for the VP9 outside the U.S.. the selection was made after trials including the HK, The Glock 17 and the Beretta APX.

They are also apparently replacing their 5.56 Howa model 89s with an updated Howa 5.56 rifle that looks a lot like the HK 433.

Source: https://www.mod.go.jp/j/press/news/2019/12/06b.html

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[RAM Engineer]

Million Yen question: Paddle or button? 😉

[Doc_Glock]

Is this like Toyota using the a BMW as the base for their new Supra;)

Link not helpful. I was able to get it in English, but do you have a more specific one?

[JRB]

Is this like Toyota using the a BMW as the base for their new Supra;)

Link not helpful. I was able to get it in English, but do you have a more specific one?

Ooof. That's a sore subject for me as a Supra guy that has worked on entirely too many 335, 235i, 135, M4, etc sorts of late model turbo BMW's before leaving the performance industry. BMW is emphatically NOT HK when it comes to reliable and sensible design.

The Japanese are surprisingly reasonable and pragmatic in how they choose small arms, though. The S&W 360J is on my 'short list' of guns-I-don't-need-but-want-anyway for that reason.

I'd love to see the adoption of this new Howa-made HK433 translate into Howa 64 and Howa 89 parts kits, but I believe they have a national policy against selling de-milled weapon systems even as chopped up parts.

[Borderland]

I have a few Howa rifles. One I use as a precision benchrest rifle. It's a good company.

[TheNewbie]

I wonder if they will use one of the safety equipped versions.


Too bad Japan will not sell us used P220s in 9mm.

[HCM]

Is this like Toyota using the a BMW as the base for their new Supra;)

Link not helpful. I was able to get it in English, but do you have a more specific one?

I think so. I can see Japan wanting to maintain domestic production of their primary military rifle for strategic reasons.

No other sources yet.

[JonInWA]

I'm very curious as to why they choose the SFP/VP over the Glock. Both are great guns; I have and heavily use both, but from an organizational maintenance standpoint, Glock pretty much trumps the competition for ease of disassembly, parts replacements and reassembly, and resources required (time and component costs).

From a a strictly shooting standpoint, good as the Glock is, the SFP/VP I believe intrinsically shoots a bit more accurately (but that's a difference more in degree not kind) and is is easier to individually beneficially configure to an individual shooter.

Perhaps JSDF has some highly motivated and skilled unit and higher echelon armorers....or the HKs based on testing are simply forecast to last longer/break less.

Best, Jon

[HCM]

I'm very curious as to why they choose the SFP/VP over the Glock. Both are great guns; I have and heavily use both, but from an organizational maintenance standpoint, Glock pretty much trumps the competition for ease of disassembly, parts replacements and reassembly, and resources required (time and component costs).

From a a strictly shooting standpoint, good as the Glock is, the SFP/VP I believe intrinsically shoots a bit more accurately (but that's a difference more in degree not kind) and is is easier to individually beneficially configure to an individual shooter.

Perhaps JSDF has some highly motivated and skilled unit and higher echelon armorers....or the HKs based on testing are simply forecast to last longer/break less.

Best, Jon

The Glock 17 resonates with Americans because it is a tool but is not really in keeping with the Japanese cultural ideas of quality and tools as functional art.

[RAM Engineer]

Also could have had something to do with domestic production/licensing. I will suspect the Howa will just be a Japanese licensed HK433. Maybe Glock didn't want to license production to Howa, or set up a domestic factory.

[HCM]

Also could have had something to do with domestic production/licensing. I will suspect the Howa will just be a Japanese licensed HK433. Maybe Glock didn't want to license production to Howa, or set up a domestic factory.

There was no indication the Sfp9s will be domestically produced.

This again illustrates the strategic insignificance of handguns to military operations.

[JonInWA]

The Glock 17 resonates with Americans because it is a tool but is not really in keeping with the Japanese cultural ideas of quality and tools as functional art.

That make complete sense. And the need to do detailed disassemblies on a frequent basis is probably fairly minimal-or the armorer skill level is such that it's a low-impact event.

Best, Jon

[ranger]

I spent some time in the field with the Japanese Infantry in 1984. I remember they had some huge 308 semiauto rifle (HK?) and bayonets that looked 2 ft long. They loved our M16A1s and puny bayonets. Glad I di not have to carry those heavy rifles and bayonets!

[MrInox]

This was a pretty small order....3,000 rifles and 300 pistols.......my guess is this stuff is for the "tip of the naginata" guys and not so much rank and file.





Also could have had something to do with domestic production/licensing. I will suspect the Howa will just be a Japanese licensed HK433. Maybe Glock didn't want to license production to Howa, or set up a domestic factory.



The sigs that are being replaced were license produced by minebea, not howa.

[JRB]

I'm very curious as to why they choose the SFP/VP over the Glock. Both are great guns; I have and heavily use both, but from an organizational maintenance standpoint, Glock pretty much trumps the competition for ease of disassembly, parts replacements and reassembly, and resources required (time and component costs).

From a a strictly shooting standpoint, good as the Glock is, the SFP/VP I believe intrinsically shoots a bit more accurately (but that's a difference more in degree not kind) and is is easier to individually beneficially configure to an individual shooter.

Perhaps JSDF has some highly motivated and skilled unit and higher echelon armorers....or the HKs based on testing are simply forecast to last longer/break less.

Best, Jon

The Japanese are very focused on accuracy. The S&W 360J as issued to Japanese police officers is fired in single-action mode only for their qualification (at 25M IIRC) and they're taught to use single action exclusively whenever possible for accurate shots. Same for the Beretta 92's issued in limited quantities to their SWAT equivalent officers.

Anecdotally, I've found the VP9 to be more comfortable and more accurate for a novice to moderately skilled shooter than a G4 G19 or G4 G17, (I have little G5 experience) and moderately skilled shooters surrender little if anything to a Glock with the VP9.
I strongly doubt there are many 'P-F level' pistol shooters in Japan (I say that while also feeling that I'm not a 'P-F' level shooter myself) and those few that are in Japan are all doubtlessly in a very specific tactical team in LE or the military. I think one would have to be at a high level with a Glock to get to a point where they did worse with a VP9.

So my best Semi-Wild-Ass-Guess is three things led to the HK over the Glock:

-Near as makes no difference as reliable and accurate in their testing
-More comfortable for them with existing grip options
-No trigger pull for weapon takedown; this in particular may have been the deciding factor, as Japanese thinking would find that incredibly non-ideal and non-optimized, and the Japanese are all about optimization.

Now, putting on my bureaucrat thinking cap on, I could see the JSDF wide adoption of the HK SFP9 leading to a substantially reduced cost for the HK licensing to domestically produce their HK433-esque rifle. In the end, it's all about the money.


I spent some time in the field with the Japanese Infantry in 1984. I remember they had some huge 308 semiauto rifle (HK?) and bayonets that looked 2 ft long. They loved our M16A1s and puny bayonets. Glad I di not have to carry those heavy rifles and bayonets!

Howa Type 64:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howa_Type_64

Runs a Japanese-only 'light' version of 7.62 NATO that's reputed to be ~15% lighter than regular NATO spec, and the rifle has an adjustable gas system to run either load.

In 1989 they went to the Type 89 in 5.56, but the Type 64 is still issued and used widely.

I'm jealous that you had a chance to train with them. I'd love to have such an opportunity someday!

[HCM]

I spent some time in the field with the Japanese Infantry in 1984. I remember they had some huge 308 semiauto rifle (HK?) and bayonets that looked 2 ft long. They loved our M16A1s and puny bayonets. Glad I di not have to carry those heavy rifles and bayonets!

Those were the Type 64, domestically produced rifle loosely based on the SIG AMT. They were replaced in frontline service in 1989 with the 5.56 Type 89 which looks kind of like the SIG 550 series. The Japanese Coast Guard and second line / reserve units still use the Type 64.

Some of the Type 89s were upgraded with a weaver accessory rail and optics mount with a Tasco made red dot for the JSDF troops who deployed to Iraq.

[Doc_Glock]

Anecdotally, I've found the VP9 to be more comfortable and more accurate for a novice to moderately skilled shooter than a G4 G19 or G4 G17, (I have little G5 experience) and moderately skilled shooters surrender little if anything to a Glock with the VP9.
I strongly doubt there are many 'P-F level' pistol shooters in Japan (I say that while also feeling that I'm not a 'P-F' level shooter myself) and those few that are in Japan are all doubtlessly in a very specific tactical team in LE or the military. I think one would have to be at a high level with a Glock to get to a point where they did worse with a VP9.

So my best Semi-Wild-Ass-Guess is three things led to the HK over the Glock:

-Near as makes no difference as reliable and accurate in their testing
-More comfortable for them with existing grip options
-No trigger pull for weapon takedown; this in particular may have been the deciding factor, as Japanese thinking would find that incredibly non-ideal and non-optimized, and the Japanese are all about optimization.


Very well worded post on the differences between VP9 and Glock. I 100% agree.

I also think the VP9 seems to be built at a quality level the Glock does not match if that is important to the Japanese.

[ranger]

Those were the Type 64, domestically produced rifle loosely based on the SIG AMT. They were replaced in frontline service in 1989 with the 5.56 Type 89 which looks kind of like the SIG 550 series. The Japanese Coast Guard and second line / reserve units still use the Type 64.

Some of the Type 89s were upgraded with a weaver accessory rail and optics mount with a Tasco made red dot for the JSDF troops who deployed to Iraq.

I saw some of the Japanese troops while I was in Iraq. If I remember correctly - they had Australians pulling security for them and I think the Japanese were under strictest orders not to become engaged. They were working on humanitarian projects.

[TheNewbie]

They should have adopted the Glock 44.

[JBP55]

With the Gen 4 Glocks I shot the VP9 better than any of my Glocks but the G34. I think the 9mm Gen 5 Glocks shoot as well as the VP9. YMMV

[HCM]

I saw some of the Japanese troops while I was in Iraq. If I remember correctly - they had Australians pulling security for them and I think the Japanese were under strictest orders not to become engaged. They were working on humanitarian projects.

That doesn’t surprise me. Although I thought maybe like the Chinese they saw the effects of a military that never sought real world use and hope to knock a little rust off in case of trouble in their own part of the world. The Chinese military actually causes the “peace disease. “

[HopetonBrown]

With the Gen 4 Glocks I shot the VP9 better than any of my Glocks but the G34. I think the 9mm Gen 5 Glocks shoot as well as the VP9. YMMVWhen I took the slide off a VP9 I saw what looked like a Rube Goldberg machine hiding within the frame.

[TGS]

With the Gen 4 Glocks I shot the VP9 better than any of my Glocks but the G34. I think the 9mm Gen 5 Glocks shoot as well as the VP9. YMMV

Yup.

Highest score I ever made on the 200-Drill with a semi-auto pistol was a 180 with a 19M.

With the P229 I averaged around 140. With the Beretta 92 in the 170s. The only other gun I've shot so accurately with is my S&W Model 19-5s.

(Ooo. I just noticed. 5th Generation for both guns. Coincidence?! :cool: )

[HCM]

The Japanese Military has announced they are replacing their aging folded slide SIG P220s with the HK SFP9. The SFP9 is HK’s designation for the VP9 outside the U.S.. the selection was made after trials including the HK, The Glock 17 and the Beretta APX.

They are also apparently replacing their 5.56 Howa model 89s with an updated Howa 5.56 rifle that looks a lot like the HK 433.

Source: https://www.mod.go.jp/j/press/news/2019/12/06b.html

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FIRST LOOK: Japan’s New Type 20 Rifle


https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/05/18/first-look-japanese-armys-new-type-20-rifle/?fbclid=IwAR2xxtp2le_Xgw4rBPmUedla3cMVfCha2AmpFNR_ GFz6MHSJYwnf0iordmA


54337

Looks like they also adopting a 1-8x LPVO made by Deon of Japan - known in the U.S. as March Optics.

https://marchscopes.com/scopes/d8sv24fiml/

[Cyberpunk1981]

That doesn’t surprise me. Although I thought maybe like the Chinese they saw the effects of a military that never sought real world use and hope to knock a little rust off in case of trouble in their own part of the world. The Chinese military actually causes the “peace disease. “
I've never actually thought about that. It seems pretty interesting an idea.

[Bucky]

They should have adopted the Glock 44.

I wonder if the 46 was considered, if no trigger pull take down was desired.

[HCM]

I wonder if the 46 was considered, if no trigger pull take down was desired.

That was not part of the requirements and the Glock 17 was one of the contenders, along with the APX.

I believe TheNewbie was being facetious.

[HCM]

I've never actually thought about that. It seems pretty interesting an idea.

The concept of “The Peace Disease” dovetails with Von Clausewitz’s concepts of “friction” and to a lesser extent the “fog of war.”

Similar to how little kids immune systems need some exposure to dirt and germs to be truely effective.

https://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/modern-fog-and-friction

https://warontherocks.com/2016/01/living-with-fog-and-friction-the-fallacy-of-information-superiority/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.army.mil/article-amp/185864/fog_friction_and_logistics


According to Clausewitz, friction "is the force that makes the apparently easy so difficult." Friction is the interaction of chance and action and can be caused by many factors, including enemy forces, friendly actions, or the environment.