124-HST Case Length Issue

[Sauer Koch]

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At the range this evening, shooting my P30SK, with 124gr HST, and I had a failure to go into battery. It was about an eighth of an inch shy, and was a little hard to open the slide to extract; I couldn't really see any issue, so I decided to put it back in the mag, mostly full, and try again, but the same thing happened and it was much harder to remove from the gun. At first, I didn't think it was going to come out, but finally got it by pushing the muzzle against the rubber mat on the table. Once I began looking harder, I was able to see the problem; it's pretty subtle, but the one with the blue x has a slightly longer case than the other one, and that was the issue. When I load fresh rounds from my stash, I always stand them up alongside each other, and verify that the OAL all match, but I have never looked at the case length in relation to the others. Lesson learned! I've probably went through about 1K of these and never ran across this, so that's not bad, I just need to be a little more careful with my screening.

[lyodbraun]

Strange, but doesn’t surprise me at all.. good eye in catching it... maybe contact federal and let them know of the issue ?

[Jim Watson]

What is the case length?

[Sauer Koch]

What is the case length?

Not sure; I don’t have a caliper.

[olstyn]

Assuming the other one is the correct 19mm, going by proportion, it looks like it's about 20mm long.

[Jim Watson]

I once did some reloads that would not let the gun breech up.
I saw they were all in Hornady brass and were markedly longer than WW. But I got them as range pickup so they shot in some gun.

Chilling to think we have to do our own quality control on "premium" factory ammo.

[Sauer Koch]

I once did some reloads that would not let the gun breech up.
I saw they were all in Hornady brass and were markedly longer than WW. But I got them as range pickup so they shot in some gun.

Chilling to think we have to do our own quality control on "premium" factory ammo.

Well, considering it's mass produced, I guess it's bound to happen. I'm not upset about it, and look at it as a valuable lesson learned! The second time i tried to cycle it, and then remove it, it was what I'd call a catastrophic failure, considering how much time it took me to remove it. Had that been in the middle of a real situation, and I NEEDED that round, I would've been better off with a hammer in my hand!

Check every single round that goes into your mag!

*Update: this is the best I could do. Bad round is 48/64” (19.05mm) and a good one was 47/64”, (18.65mm) but by a simple ruler, it was extremely hard to see much difference. You’d think the ruler would have shown a bigger difference than my eyes saw; quite odd!

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[Jim Watson]

Assuming you are eyeballing that ruler accurately, that round SHOULD chamber.
48/64 = .750" and the SAAMI maximum case length is .754", 19.15mm if you just must metricate.
Just in case of error or fouling, the SAAMI maximum chamber depth is .776" (19.71mm.)
I doubt the DIN/CIP is a whole lot shorter.

Try to get your hands on good calipers and show more reliable numbers.

[bfoosh006]

The left hand case is not as crimped either.. and with 9x19 being a tapered case, that will limit the loaded rounds ability to smooth chamber.

You can see the uncrimped portion readily in your photo.

[OlongJohnson]

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It's interesting to me that the difference in OAL seems to be matched by a difference in length of the extractor groove.

[Sauer Koch]

It's interesting to me that the difference in OAL seems to be matched by a difference in length of the extractor groove.

Well, I just took a pic with that in mind, and spent a few minutes looking at the grooves on both, and at one point, I thought I could see a difference, but in the end, I cant say that I do. I can definitively see the OAL difference, but nothing with the extractor groove, but that doesn't necessarily mean something couldn't be off there?
If someone had shown me these two rounds and asked if I thought the case length would result in what I saw happen, i'd have said no, simply because it was so minute, but I guess that's just ignorance on my part as to how well made these modern pistols really are...

No doubt, this has been a great learning experience!

[Mike C]

Good reminder to plunk test carry ammo in your carry gun.

[OlongJohnson]

Even more safety...



The Wilson Pistol Max (Cartridge) Gage is designed to check loaded pistol cartridges and is set to maximum SAAMI spec dimensions. This gage will measure Max Case Length, Max Cartridge dimensions and Max Loaded Round Length. But, more importantly it will help you to determine what is going on with your loaded ammunition. It can help to solve many issues associated with loading pistol ammunition. Such as, bowing of cases during sizing, oblong rounds, bulge on case or crimp just to name a few. The Pistol Max Gage is a must if you are loading your own ammunition for your handguns or if you need to check purchased factory ammunition. (https://lewilson.com/pistol-max-gage/)

A little more simply, if it goes in this gauge, it's inside the high limits of SAAMI spec (could still be undersize). Which means it should go in any chamber that is compatible with SAAMI spec ammo, even if it's cut exactly to SAAMI minimum chamber specs. Your carry gun is probably a little bigger than SAAMI minimum chamber specs, so using the gauge gives you a little more margin of safety. If ammo doesn't go in the gauge, it's out of spec, period.

[Sauer Koch]

Even more safety...


(https://lewilson.com/pistol-max-gage/)

A little more simply, if it goes in this gauge, it's inside the high limits of SAAMI spec (could still be undersize). Which means it should go in any chamber that is compatible with SAAMI spec ammo, even if it's cut exactly to SAAMI minimum chamber specs. Your carry gun is probably a little bigger than SAAMI minimum chamber specs, so using the gauge gives you a little more margin of safety. If ammo doesn't go in the gauge, it's out of spec, period.

I plan to buy one, thanks!

[OlongJohnson]

Amazon has it. (https://www.amazon.com/L-Wilson-PMG-9MM-Pistol/dp/B00OTZN95A/)

[Balisong]

Even more safety...


(https://lewilson.com/pistol-max-gage/)

A little more simply, if it goes in this gauge, it's inside the high limits of SAAMI spec (could still be undersize). Which means it should go in any chamber that is compatible with SAAMI spec ammo, even if it's cut exactly to SAAMI minimum chamber specs. Your carry gun is probably a little bigger than SAAMI minimum chamber specs, so using the gauge gives you a little more margin of safety. If ammo doesn't go in the gauge, it's out of spec, period.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, and thanks to Sauer Koch for bringing up the subject.
I was vaguely aware of such devices for reloaders, but since I don't reload yet I hadn't looked into them. Never crossed my mind they'd be good for checking carry ammo also. Should someone use this in addition to a plunk test, or is just one or the other good enough would you think?

[olstyn]

I plan to buy one, thanks!

YMMV, but it's cheaper to just figure out which of your guns has the tightest chamber and use that barrel as a gauge.

[OlongJohnson]

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, and thanks to Sauer Koch for bringing up the subject.
I was vaguely aware of such devices for reloaders, but since I don't reload yet I hadn't looked into them. Never crossed my mind they'd be good for checking carry ammo also. Should someone use this in addition to a plunk test, or is just one or the other good enough would you think?

The case gauge can be expected to reject more parts than the plunk test, so one would expect it to be determining in any comparative ammo sorting strategy. However, doing the plunk test with ammo that passed the case gauge might identify issues such as this before they become problems: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39118-Kaboom!


YMMV, but it's cheaper to just figure out which of your guns has the tightest chamber and use that barrel as a gauge.

I am not coming up with any reliable way to do that without buying several pin gauges and other measuring tools, which will come close to or greatly exceed the cost of a quality case gauge.

BTW, I specifically linked the Wilson gauge because it is spec'ed the way it is. Not all of them are made to that exact spec; if you want or are considering something different, do your research.

[olstyn]

I am not coming up with any reliable way to do that without buying several pin gauges and other measuring tools, which will come close to or greatly exceed the cost of a quality case gauge.

Admittedly I'm coming at it from the perspective of someone who reloads, and uses the barrel of the intended gun(s) as the gauge. (I gauge every round that comes off of my press.) I was loading for just my Walther P99c for a long time, then bought a full size P99 and found that a few rounds that would pass the plunk test in the P99c's barrel would fail in the P99's barrel, indicating that the full size gun's chamber was just a touch tighter, so now I use that one for all of my ammo QA because I know that as the tighter of the two barrels, if it passes in the full size, it'll work in the compact as well.

I can see where if you don't have similar experience due to reloading, it would not be as easy to tell which chamber is tightest without specialized tools.

[Balisong]

I always thought of the plunk test as checking for ammo specific issues. Never crossed my mind that it could also potentially identify chamber crud problems. Good stuff, always learning stuff on this forum. Thanks again to the folks participating in this thread and sharing their experiences.

[richiecotite]

Bullet length and shape will also play a role to whether or not a loaded round will plunk


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[olstyn]

Bullet length and shape will also play a role to whether or not a loaded round will plunk

Absolutely. I can load pointy-profile round nose bullets like Berry's plated round nose a LOT longer than relatively squat JHPs like Montana Gold because the point where the Berry's shrink to less than full caliber diameter is a LOT farther from the nose of the bullet.

[CCT125US]

A word of caution for those doing the plunk test. I have seen multiple examples of factory and hand loads that will plunk fine in one chamber and bottom out in another. I would recommend a case gage to be certain. For example, my P30 chamber will pass most rounds as they seem to be generous. My P2000sk has a shorter chamber length, and longer give bullets tend to engage the rifling sooner. The Glock examples I have handled, failed more rounds than my various P30s. A good reminder to case gage the important rounds.

[olstyn]

I would recommend a case gage to be certain.

Certain of what? I've seen rounds pass a case gauge and fail in my P99's chamber because they were within SAAMI spec but the bullet shape + overall length put the bullet into the rifling before the round was fully seated in the chamber. The chamber of the gun a given round will be shot in is the only gauge that is truly meaningful.

[CCT125US]

Certain of what? I've seen rounds pass a case gauge and fail in my P99's chamber because they were within SAAMI spec but the bullet shape + overall length put the bullet into the rifling before the round was fully seated in the chamber. The chamber of the gun a given round will be shot in is the only gauge that is truly meaningful.

You did read my second sentence? Do you actually separate rounds based on the intended pistol?

Either way do what works for you.

[olstyn]

You did read my second sentence? Yes, and it didn't make much sense with your assertion that using a case gauge would make you "certain."


Do you actually separate rounds based on the intended pistol?

No. As stated earlier in the thread, I have determined which of my pistols has the tightest chamber, and I use that one to gauge rounds.