View Full Version : S&W K Frame 357 advice
Looking for some advice from the revolver gurus here. I am wanting to pickup a K frame S&W 357 for a fun/project gun. I prefer something used in decent shape with a blued finish and have been eyeing several model 13s and 19s on Gunbroker.
I'd like to have it converted to DAO with a spurless hammer and it'll serve as a range fun, occasional IDPA, and seldom carry gun.
Having never owned or fired either is there a substantial benefit to the 19 over the 13? The differences seem to be adjustable sights and a more substantial under lug for the ejector rod on the 19. Currently I'm leaning toward the 13.
Wingate's Hairbrush
12-05-2019, 05:25 PM
What barrel length we discussing?
The fundamental differences, as you note, are the 19's adjustable sights and extractor shroud; the 13 has neither. The 19's barrel is a medium contour; the 13's heavy profiled. Handling is very similar, with the 13's weight up front taming muzzle flip a bit more.
I prefer shooting the 13s a bit more, but for mostly range fun the adjustable sights might win the day.
Are you set on .357? If .38 will do, add the Model 10 to your list...
ACP230
12-05-2019, 05:30 PM
I would add the M66 to the guns listed.
They are shiny and tough, two good things, I think.
What barrel length we discussing?
4" barrel
Are you set on .357? If .38 will do, add the Model 10 to your list...
Looked at the model 10's too. They are what initially wet my appetite but would really like the 357 capabilities.
vcdgrips
12-05-2019, 06:00 PM
I shot a used Model 19 at a 2004 Thunder Ranch class in TX with much success. I found the adjustable sights to be handy as I had a hodge podge of ammo types for the class.
Given your stated goals, having the ability to zero the gun to a particular load might come in handy. I was also told by any number of "old skool shooter dudes" that you should shoot enough .357 mag out of a Model 19 so you know how it feels and where it hits but its steady diet ought not to be hotter than 38 spl +p. FWIW.
I carried that gun in a Sparks PMK with no issues at all. Sparks hit a relatively tight order window (8 weeks) knowing I needed it for a a couple of weeks of practice before heading out to class and did not charge my cc until the pkg shipped.
Alpha Sierra
12-05-2019, 06:01 PM
I honestly prefer the adjustable sight S&Ws only because the sight picture is superior to their fixed sight counterparts.
I would add the M66 to the guns listed.
They are shiny and tough, two good things, I think.
I'm watching some 65s too but am really set on blued
I dont find that i need the adjustability on my .357s. I must of lucked out with ones whose poi is so close its a moot point. My ruger m77mkll will shoot 140gr factory and 175 reloads into the same hole too. Sometimes i just get lucky.
I think the sight picture on my m66 with fixed rear sight and meprolight front has my favorite sight picture. Followed by standard(tapered) barrel sights, then m19 adjustable sights, then heavy barreled fixed sights.
Are there high visibility front sight options for either readily available?
I shot a used Model 19 at a 2004 Thunder Ranch class in TX with much success. I found the adjustable sights to be handy as I had a hodge podge of ammo types for the class.
Given your stated goals, having the ability to zero the gun to a particular load might come in handy. I was also told by any number of "old skool shooter dudes" that you should shoot enough .357 mag out of a Model 19 so you know how it feels and where it hits but its steady diet ought not to be hotter than 38 spl +p. FWIW.
I carried that gun in a Sparks PMK with no issues at all. Sparks hit a relatively tight order window (8 weeks) knowing I needed it for a a couple of weeks of practice before heading out to class and did not charge my cc until the pkg shipped.
Thinking the 13 in something like a Summer Special would be slick
Thinking the 13 in something like a Summer Special would be slick
45576
Ryan Grizzle for the win if you want to carry behind the hip.
Stephanie B
12-05-2019, 07:20 PM
.357 K (and J) frames are really .38s that can handle .357s. L and N frames are .357s which will shoot softer .38s.
Are there high visibility front sight options for either readily available?
45577
Depends. This is a m66-8 with meprolight. Sorry for the crappy pic. Some of the newer guns have easily removed pinned sights. Older guns and fixed sighted guns need a gunsmith.
.357 K (and J) frames are really .38s that can handle .357s. L and N frames are .357s which will shoot softer .38s.
Im trying really hard to figure out a lifespan of the new k frames with magnums.
.357 K (and J) frames are really .38s that can handle .357s. L and N frames are .357s which will shoot softer .38s.
It'll predominantly shoot .38s and occasionally .357. The smaller size and lighter weight seem appealing.
Im trying really hard to figure out a lifespan of the new k frames with magnums.
That's a good question. As I understand the new construction, "indefinite" is the correct answer....the trick is getting one properly assembled.
Your 2.75" 66 still working out well? What's the round count now?
Depends. This is a m66-8 with meprolight. Sorry for the crappy pic. Some of the newer guns have easily removed pinned sights. Older guns and fixed sighted guns need a gunsmith.
The one I am eyeing hardest is vintage. Early 70s I believe.
Jim Watson
12-05-2019, 07:41 PM
The current version M66 is allegedly beefed up. I think you should try to wear one out with Magnums.
Having never owned or fired either is there a substantial benefit to the 19 over the 13? The differences seem to be adjustable sights and a more substantial under lug for the ejector rod on the 19. Currently I'm leaning toward the 13.
Shoot both before you buy. A lot of people (myself included) prefer the balance of the 19 from the slight extra weight of the underlug.
For my old project guns, I had the front sight block shaved off and a Bowen DX front and Bowen Rough Country rear sight added. The FO sight is awesome.
The heart wants what the heart wants. Because you are seeking advice, why not a heavy barrel Model 10 or 64, they are plentiful on the used market with a wide price range. With all honesty do you see yourself going to the range and firing 50/100 rounds magnums, if so you should reevaluate and consider going up to the N frame size revolver.
That's a good question. As I understand the new construction, "indefinite" is the correct answer....the trick is getting one properly assembled.
Your 2.75" 66 still working out well? What's the round count now?
Good. I just sent the cylinder out to get properly honed throats. I couldn't tap .358 sized bullets through the cylinder. My normal 13.5gr 2400 under a 158gr hardcast bullet doesnt lead but everything lighter would. Besides that i have over 2krds of magnums (90% of those reloads) through it with at least that much more of .38+p through it.
Action is like butter.
Jacketed bullets always shot fine.
The heart wants what the heart wants. Because you are seeking advice, why not a heavy barrel Model 10 or 64, they are plentiful on the used market with a wide price range. With all honesty do you see yourself going to the range and firing 50/100 rounds magnums, if so you should reevaluate and consider going up to the N frame size revolver.
I do not thus the K frames. Prefer to have a blued example so a 13 or 19. I totally agree, the heart wants what it wants!
Malamute
12-05-2019, 08:36 PM
I do not thus the K frames. Prefer to have a blued example so a 13 or 19. I totally agree, the heart wants what it wants!
Agree. I happen to feel that the 19s are one of the best looking and feeling pistols Smith ever made. The fixed sight Ks are pretty uninteresting to me, other than the 3" guns. They look homely as a mud fence. The ones Ive had didnt hold my interest for long. Stainless has about the same effect on me. I prefer a well worn blued gun to a new stainless gun. Folks just have different taste in things.
45582
A 4" M19 sure feels perfect in my hands
45582
A 4" M19 sure feels perfect in my hands
Thats a handsome 19. What grips are those?
Thats a handsome 19. What grips are those?
VZ
Stephanie B
12-05-2019, 09:55 PM
The one I am eyeing hardest is vintage. Early 70s I believe.
You know not to use lightweight high-speed .357s, right?
Totem Polar
12-05-2019, 10:27 PM
Currently I'm leaning toward the 13.
A 4" 13 is a beautiful thing. If my crappy eyes could still do the sights, i’d stick with the 13s and 65s forever. The older ones tend to be well-regulated for 158 grainers across a surprisingly wide velocity range, including .357—which they will shoot for years. Accelerated wear traditionally comes from the hotter 125 magnum loads.
I have 10s of K rounds through a few fixed sight K-frames under my belt, and I have yet to bust one up. It can be done, but if you’re shooting that much, you can easily justify finding another one to repeat the process. JMO.
You know not to use lightweight high-speed .357s, right?
I do now thanks!
Bushytale
12-06-2019, 06:32 AM
My first serious handgun, bought in 1970, was a 4" blue steel model 19 Combat Magnum. I shot thousands of 158 grain Remington full power magnum rounds and had no problems. If your only going to have one I still think it is the best choice for an all around handgun. The current commercial magnum ammo is loaded lighter than the ones of that time period. You should have no problem with a model 19 that is in good working condition.
DamonL
12-06-2019, 06:55 AM
Are there high visibility front sight options for either readily available?
I remember that some model 19's had red inserts from the factory.
Here is an article about replacing the insert that will show what the factory ramp was like.
https://gunsmagazine.com/discover/secrets-of-the-red-front-sight-insert/
It usually came with a white outlined rear sight.
Stephanie B
12-06-2019, 08:16 AM
You know not to use lightweight high-speed .357s, right?I do now thanks!
Almost all Model 13/19/65/66s can crack their forcing cones if subjected to a diet of the lightweight highspeed hollowpoints that became popular in the 1970s. There were a lot of factors at play in the cracking of the forcing cones, which had a weaker spot at the bottom of the forcing cone (a flat spot). The remedy, as I understand it, is to stick with 158 grain bullets in .357 loads for K-frame magnums.
I believe that the newest model Model 19s and 66s have had the weakened forcing cone issue designed out of them.
To make a fast pass over a lot of history, the Model 19 was developed to give cops the lighter gun of a K-frame but with magnum power. Back in the day, it was common practice to train with .38 Specials (it wasn't uncommon for departments to roll their own practice ammo) and shoot magnums in the field. This proved to be a bad idea. There were issues with K frames standing up to using the popular lightweight highspeed hollowpoints.
As an aside, Ruger Security/Speed Sixes didn't have the same problem. Smith & Wesson introduced the L-frame guns to compete with Ruger for police business, then Ruger brought out the GP100 series.
My suggestion, if you haven't shot them much: Before you buy, find a place where you can try out the guns. I wouldn't worry about a rental/borrowed gun being a Model 66, just get a feel for shooting magnums through a K frame before you plunk down several hundred dollars for one.
HeavyDuty
12-06-2019, 09:04 AM
I love me a good K frame and have two (a 3” 64 and my grandfather’s K-22), but when the time came to pick up a new 4” .357 I went slightly larger - a fixed sight 619. I like it enough that I’m looking for its adjustable sighted brother, the 620. I’ll never get rid of my 64, but the 619 makes an ideal field gun for me and is a good mate to my 69.
45601
Dave T
12-06-2019, 01:05 PM
Can anyone explain why S&W called the upper gun in HeavyDuty's picture a 619 instead of a M-65, and why the lower picture isn't just a reintroduced M-66?
Dave
jtcarm
12-06-2019, 01:50 PM
My thoughts, FWIW:
On an older gun, I would go with adjustable sights because replacing or modifying the integral front sight to something more visible is a big deal that requires a gunsmith.
While a Model 19 would have the same issue with the FS, you can easily change the rear blade with an aftermarket that has a wider notch, or carefully file the notch a bit. A little more daylight helps tremendously with picking up that front sight.
S&Ws standard ramp is 1/8” thick. On a barrel shorter than 6”, I like the 1/10” to give my old eyes some more daylight (shorter the barrel, the more of the notch the front sight fills.)
Even if you were to get a custom FS installed, an adjustable rear sight gives you much more flexibility in your front sight choice.
Stephanie B
12-06-2019, 02:53 PM
Can anyone explain why S&W called the upper gun in HeavyDuty's picture a 619 instead of a M-65, and why the lower picture isn't just a reintroduced M-66?
Dave
I think the 619 and 620 are L-frames without full-lug barrels.
HeavyDuty
12-06-2019, 03:25 PM
I think the 619 and 620 are L-frames without full-lug barrels.
Dingdingdingding...
Dave T
12-06-2019, 03:56 PM
Obviously I don't get out much...and don't follow current production Smiths at all. To many after-the-fact QC testers (i.e. consumers) and then there's the IL. (smile)
Dave
Well, decision made. Just won a nice 13-1 on Gunbroker.
Stephanie B
12-06-2019, 08:29 PM
Obviously I don't get out much...and don't follow current production Smiths at all. To many after-the-fact QC testers (i.e. consumers) and then there's the IL. (smile)
It is my impression that all of the gun makers these days are using the consumers for final QC. To my mind, it is a reason why used guns can be a much better value.
Malamute
12-06-2019, 09:49 PM
My thoughts, FWIW:
On an older gun, I would go with adjustable sights because replacing or modifying the integral front sight to something more visible is a big deal that requires a gunsmith.
While a Model 19 would have the same issue with the FS, you can easily change the rear blade with an aftermarket that has a wider notch, or carefully file the notch a bit. A little more daylight helps tremendously with picking up that front sight...
The old factory red ramp wasnt very bright. Its better than blued steel, but not great. The old hack of using fingernail polish is a valid option for the front sight. After trying one brand of bright orange polish with a white undercoat, I tried the Salon Perfect "Traffic Cone" orange, its brighter in low light than the fiber optics Ive compared it to. Ive painted all my carry pistol sights (including the old 29 with factory red ramp) and winchester carbine sights with it. I carry them daily when in my normal habitat in the evening, and after a year or two am still awed by how well it shows up in dusk conditions. It can chip and wear some after months of pocket or holster carry, a little dose of acetone on a rag or paper towel and a new coat of white and orange and its back like new.
It makes the blued Vaquero a workable option for dusk skunk patrol duty, the worn blue sights pretty well disappeared well before good blued sights did. Now I can see the front long after regular blued sights are history for the day.
Wingate's Hairbrush
12-07-2019, 09:12 AM
Well, decision made. Just won a nice 13-1 on Gunbroker.Congrats -- hope it's a winner and much enjoyed; I'm particularly fond of the heavy barreled, fixed sight K-frames.
As long as the much-debated K-frame forcing cone issue is on the table, I'd suggest you read widely on it; among S&W aficionados it remains a controversial subject with no end in definitive statements for and against whether it's an actual issue in the design, a bad batch barrels that got into the wild, the result of changes in barrel fitting, a particular load no longer extant, Internet amplification of a limited issue, much ado about nothing, and so on.
There are folk who've definitely experienced the forcing cone crack, some after very limited use of .357. There are also folk who've put almost nothing but .357 of all stripes through their Ks to zero ill-effect.
Point is, there's a lot of conflicting information, opinion and evidence lending weight to both sides of the divide in this debate, and it might be best to be informed of all of it, but have a healthy dose of the agnostic on the matter rather than accept any assertions as final.
Here's in my opinion one of the better reads floating around out there on the subject: https://gunblast.com/Butch_MagnumLoads.htm
I like all K frames (and most N frames). I particularly like the Model 19, which I think was perhaps the best revolver Smith ever made, and while I like ones with 4 inch barrels, I think the crème de la crème were to 2 1/2 inch barrel models.
One simply cannot own too many 2.5 inch barrel model 19's.
Totem Polar
12-12-2019, 02:37 PM
I like all K frames (and most N frames). I particularly like the Model 19, which I think was perhaps the best revolver Smith ever made, and while I like ones with 4 inch barrels, I think the crème de la crème were to 2 1/2 inch barrel models.
One simply cannot own too many 2.5 inch barrel model 19's.
The exception, of course, being the opportunity to buy a rare 3" 19...
oregon45
12-12-2019, 02:40 PM
Or 3" Model 66's:
https://i.imgur.com/rnV8qXY.jpg?1
Or 3" Model 65's:
https://i.imgur.com/y6ywHQf.jpg?1
The exception, of course, being the opportunity to buy a rare 3" 19...
You have a Model 19 3 incher and you didn't post a photo of it?????
I think that is definitely against the rules.
Or 3" Model 66's:
https://i.imgur.com/rnV8qXY.jpg?1
Or 3" Model 65's:
https://i.imgur.com/y6ywHQf.jpg?1
I'm pretty sure that I hate you.
45854
It's all about the short barrel Combat Magnums, baby.
Only thing better are 3" Combat Magnums.
deputyG23
12-13-2019, 06:20 AM
I'm watching some 65s too but am really set on blued
Our Cabela’s here in Short Pump has a 4” M65-3 with aftermarket Hogue or Rogers stocks for $449.
Our Cabela’s here in Short Pump has a 4” M65-3 with aftermarket Hogue or Rogers stocks for $449.
Thanks, but I bought a Model 13 off of Gunbroker. Its set to arrive at my FFL tomorrow.
HeavyDuty
12-13-2019, 07:28 AM
Or 3" Model 66's:
https://i.imgur.com/rnV8qXY.jpg?1
OMG. My first new handgun love was my 3” 64, which I still have all these years later. A 3” 66 might be enough for me to jump ship. I had no idea these were ever made.
deputyG23
12-13-2019, 08:25 AM
Thanks, but I bought a Model 13 off of Gunbroker. Its set to arrive at my FFL tomorrow.
Good. Glad you won it.
Pictures, please when it arrives.
Picked her up today and was able to put a box of .38spl through it. Finish is in excellent condition with exception of some minor holster wear at the muzzle and cylinder edge (which just makes it better looking). Trigger is SCHWEET! Both DA and SA. I am going to put a little orange paint on the front sight serrations for better visibility.
Malamute
12-15-2019, 03:15 PM
Remember to use a white base coat and not heavy on the orange and it will really stand out well.
So far the Traffic Cone color of orange by Salon Perfect (neon pop line) has been brightest that Ive found.
Remember to use a white base coat and not heavy on the orange and it will really stand out well.
So far the Traffic Cone color of orange by Salon Perfect (neon pop line) has been brightest that Ive found.
Thanks! I have some white and Florescent Orange Testors paints I used for my 442 which has held up well. I'll prob use that again.
Willard
12-15-2019, 06:38 PM
Im trying really hard to figure out a lifespan of the new k frames with magnums.
What is your current round count? Thanks.
Totem Polar
12-15-2019, 08:21 PM
45854
It's all about the short barrel Combat Magnums, baby.
Only thing better are 3" Combat Magnums.
Hold on a sec here. I may well be confusing you with someone else, but didn’t you just get your first K-frame in, like, ever, and talk about it here in a separate thread over the last several years?
Hold on a sec here. I may well be confusing you with someone else, but didn’t you just get your first K-frame in, like, ever, and talk about it here in a separate thread over the last several years?
I got my first K-frame, L-frame, J-frame, and Ruger all in 2010.
I got my first 2.5" Model 19 in 2017.
Totem Polar
12-16-2019, 12:02 AM
I got my first 2.5" Model 19 in 2017.
Yah... evidently, that shit escalated quickly.
Dagga Boy
12-16-2019, 12:07 AM
Picked her up today and was able to put a box of .38spl through it. Finish is in excellent condition with exception of some minor holster wear at the muzzle and cylinder edge (which just makes it better looking). Trigger is SCHWEET! Both DA and SA. I am going to put a little orange paint on the front sight serrations for better visibility.
That brings back memories. My “bad guy” gun for force on force at the PD was a 4” Model 13 I used as my personal dedicated Sims gun. I did a ton of “gunfighting” with cops with it. A lot of .38 Sims hit a lot of face shields with that gun. I think it may be why I have such a in embedded appreciation for revolvers and do not feel as handicapped by them as so many others.
willie
12-16-2019, 12:33 AM
Removing the hammer spur and making the weapon double action only would serve no purpose on a range gun. It would reduce its value because the work would be non standard. On the other hand, this action work is a great idea on a carry weapon. I say use the money to buy a second revolver. Congratulations on the purchase. You have good taste.
Suggestions for some nice practical wood grips for my new 13?
oregon45
12-17-2019, 09:51 PM
Depends on what you mean by "nice" and "practical." One thing about revolver grips: they're very personal. Although there are common features that many, perhaps most, shooters like, I've found that I've had to modify or change almost every pair of wood grips I've ever had, so experimentation is the name of the game if this is your first S&W revolver.
You might try finding a gun shop with a box of old grips and buying a few pairs of rubber Pachmayr and Hogue grips; even better, if you are willing to do a bit of woodworking, a beater pair of wood K-frame target grips from the 70s-80s will have plenty of excess wood on them that you can sand and shape to your hand. I've done that several times. One advantage to that route is that you also can build up areas of the grip with epoxy or rifle bedding compound if you sand off too much.
Such grips are not much to look at, but will give you an idea of what types of shapes fit your hand and work best for your shooting grip. Do you intend to use speedloaders? If so, many commercially made wood grips may not clear your particular speedloaders--I have had grips that worked with HKS loaders but not Safariland loaders, and vice-versa. Again, experimentation is worth the time and keeping your cash outlay minimal by buying used grips and rubber grips can facilitate your finding out what works best for you, before you invest in a good set of wood grips.
After a decade and half of shooting and acquiring revolvers my S&W grips fall into three categories: beat up S&W factory grips sanded to fit my hands; rubber Pachmayr's for long strings of shooting magnums or shooting in inclement weather; and custom made Ivory Micarta grips on my N-frame Magnums because the material is impervious to the elements and looks really cool. Different grips for different purposes.
Oukaapie
12-17-2019, 10:31 PM
Suggestions for some nice practical wood grips for my new 13?
Ahrends.....intersection of yummy, pretty, ergonomic and cost effective.
Nice meaning quality construction and aesthetically pleasing and practical meaning thicker, able to conceal, and providing ample grip. I haven't seen anything from Altamont that catches my eye. Ahrends and Hogue both have some that look nice. What others should be considered?
fatdog
12-20-2019, 07:57 PM
What others should be considered?
Herretts
jetfire
12-20-2019, 10:01 PM
Removing the hammer spur and making the weapon double action only would serve no purpose on a range gun. It would reduce its value because the work would be non standard. On the other hand, this action work is a great idea on a carry weapon. I say use the money to buy a second revolver. Congratulations on the purchase. You have good taste.
A range gun should be double action as well. DA revolvers should all be DAO, and if someone wants an SA revolver there are plenty of Ruger Blackhawks on the market.
Retaining the SA notch on a revolver is like keeping training wheels on your bike when you're 30.
A range gun should be double action as well. DA revolvers should all be DAO, and if someone wants an SA revolver there are plenty of Ruger Blackhawks on the market.
Retaining the SA notch on a revolver is like keeping training wheels on your bike when you're 30.
But what if a burglar enters your home and you want him to know you’re super serious about home invaders?
jetfire
12-21-2019, 12:44 AM
But what if a burglar enters your home and you want him to know you’re super serious about home invaders?
Stab him with a boar spear!
willie
12-21-2019, 01:22 AM
A range gun should be double action as well. DA revolvers should all be DAO, and if someone wants an SA revolver there are plenty of Ruger Blackhawks on the market.
Retaining the SA notch on a revolver is like keeping training wheels on your bike when you're 30.
My point is that I see no point in spending money to remove the single action feature. Doing so will reduce value of a collectible handgun. This action would be in the same category as reshaping a Colt Single Action hammer, rebluing a nice 1950's Belgium Browning shotgun, installing a Poly Choke on any shotgun, cutting the barrel on a collectible Winchester Model 12 shotgun, or performing similar alterations on other collectible firearms. A fact that I did not state is the owner risks having an untrained person grinding on a fine revolver.
jetfire
12-21-2019, 02:36 AM
My point is that I see no point in spending money to remove the single action feature. Doing so will reduce value of a collectible handgun. This action would be in the same category as reshaping a Colt Single Action hammer, rebluing a nice 1950's Belgium Browning shotgun, installing a Poly Choke on any shotgun, cutting the barrel on a collectible Winchester Model 12 shotgun, or performing similar alterations on other collectible firearms. A fact that I did not state is the owner risks having an untrained person grinding on a fine revolver.
A used Model 13 is hardly a collectible, it's basically a blue steel Glock that only holds six rounds. He should definitely make it DAO.
willie
12-21-2019, 03:45 AM
15 years agoI bought a new inbox old stock M13 in the box with papers from my dealer. At the same time I bought a new in box and unfired M10. I paid $265 for the M13 and $235 for the M1O. They have almost tripled in value. 15 years from now, the op's revolver will have increased in value similarly. The reason is that sources of these handguns are drying up. If the op removes the hammer spur and has the single action notch removed, then his revolver's value will degrade. At the same time, he will be paying for a service that will reduce his weapon's value.
I do agree that revolvers carried for self defense pose fewer problems when they are double action only. Perhaps the best reason is that the shooter will less likely have a negligent discharge. A range gun does not have these requirements.
If the op chooses to remove the hammer spur, he will have more difficulty finding a holster with a retaining structure that will function with the spur removed. Thumb snap versions won't work. Straps that go under the spur won't work. But there may be a cool factor with the weapon so modified. To each his own.
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