Sub compacts and micro compacts

[Polecat]

Was out goofin’ today looked at the new Canik sub Compact and M&P 2.0 sub. I have been carryin my P365 lately and just got a Hellcat. The subs seem huge by comparison, realize it just relative, but man Sig was on to something! Can’t wait to see what Walther, S&W, and others would bring out. Also just picked up a SIG Romeo Zero and stuck it on my Hellcat. Looking forward to trying a red dot. I have only tried them on larger guns as rentals and like the concept. They are different to get used to, but I have an open mind.

[Tensaw]

See? Now you know what all the cool kids have been talking about!

[SoCalDep]

Where did you get a Romeo Zero?

[Polecat]

Where did you get a Romeo Zero?

Local dealer had a few, I was surprised. Well see.

[SoCalDep]

Local dealer had a few, I was surprised. Well see.

Nice! I’m looking for one to try. I’ll need to order it on line.

[spence]

I don't get why the heck the teeny tiny guns are so dang popular. I've shot a friend's 365 a couple times, and it's surprisingly accurate for such a small gun, but why?

Not trying to detract, just blathering.

[camsdaddy]

I don't get why the heck the teeny tiny guns are so dang popular. I've shot a friend's 365 a couple times, and it's surprisingly accurate for such a small gun, but why?

Not trying to detract, just blathering.
I think they are so popular because they allow someone to carry 10+ rounds of 9mm in a very small package. Many can't carry a full size firearm every day. Some don't want to carry a full size firearm everyday. We live in an age where manufactures are selling small accurate capable weapons.
That said I find many of the micro 9's too small to shoot other than slow deliberate fire. I find they twist in my hand under quicker fire. They carry twice as many rounds and are faster to reload. I find them harder to draw from the pocket than a j frame.

[gato naranja]

That said I find many of the micro 9's too small to shoot other than slow deliberate fire. I find they twist in my hand under quicker fire. They carry twice as many rounds and are faster to reload. I find them harder to draw from the pocket than a j frame.

I have found the same to be true for me, more or less...

Once I drop below my Beretta PX4 Subcompact - or Glock 26, for that matter - in grip size, I find that fast shooting opens up the groups to a far greater extent. I have shot remarkably small groups with "micro" handguns... but not in rapid fire. After renting the latest and greatest micro du jour, some shooting sessions have left me thinking I might be as well off with a .41 RF Remington derringer at my current level of shooting ability.

(Age, wear and tear have left more valleys than peaks.)

As for the J-frames, I agree. They pocket draw better for me, and what is more, the grips and triggers on them apparently keep me from "overdriving." I wish S&W would produce a no-lock, no-frills 640 so I could pick up a new one. At 60+, I may be a dinosaur, yet I can appreciate the new micros and why they are the new "cool;" I also know that there are no free lunches, and everything is a trade-off. I have one micro 9 because it fills a need, but it remains a compromise, not a magic wand.

gn

[ratter75]

As a longtime P30 user, I've always coveted the P30SK. But man...when you hold the 10-rd P30SK (or VP9SK or even P2000SK) next to a 10-rd 365, or even a 43x...the size/weight difference is completely insane. If size-efficiency factors into your decision making process at all, the disparity between the "subcompact" of 2-3 years ago versus what's available today is impossible to ignore.

[BillSWPA]

I don't get why the heck the teeny tiny guns are so dang popular. I've shot a friend's 365 a couple times, and it's surprisingly accurate for such a small gun, but why?

Not trying to detract, just blathering.

Anyone who carries regularly in a non permissive environment, or in the summer in business casual attire, will understand the appeal.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[spence]

Anyone who carries regularly in a non permissive environment, or in the summer in business casual attire, will understand the appeal.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for that reminder. I will admit I can forget about the not so friendly environments some folks are in regularly. I could see the appeal to a P365 sized gun much more then. I've been full circle, carried itty bitty guns for a long time, partly because I was too fat to carry much else, and/or too lazy to learn how to carry something bigger effectively, largely due to not using quality holsters/gear. Now that I carry a full size pretty much all the time, and can conceal it in a t shirt, I hit this spot where I forget these facts and ask myself why anyone wants to carry guns that are so hard to shoot.

I never understood why the Glock 19 sized gun was considered the optimal size, now I do and can forget why some actually do need something smaller.

[psalms144.1]

I've been down this rabbit hole quite a bit over the last several years, and, here are my thoughts:

1. I COMPLETELY understand the appeal of the microcompact pistols - 10+ in a package the size of the 365 is amazing.
2. I COMPLETELY agree with the comments that the micros are VERY difficult to shoot "at gunfight speed." This is based on fairly extensive shooting/training with Kahr PM9, G43, 365, M&P Shield, and, I'm sure, some others I've forgotten.

I think the cognitive disconnect here, for me, is the capacity. When I had a G43/PM9 or smaller I never thought of those pistols as anything except "get off me" guns for close range, designed to break contact to allow me to get out of a danger area or fight my way to a "real gun." The P365, with it's borderline "real gun" capacity made me think it was more of a "fighting" gun than the other micros. And, it's VERY accurate, and very easy to shoot well on accuracy drills.

Where the wheels come off is when I try to shoot the P365 on timed drills and compare results to a G26, let alone the G19. To be able to maintain anywhere near the level of speed with the larger pistols, shot placement goes to hell in a hand-basket. So, while the P365 gives me "gun fight" capacity, it doesn't give me "gun fight" CAPABILITY.

As a result, I've gotten rid of ALL my subcompacts (except for one LCR). The smallest I'll go now is the 43X, because I can shoot it the way I know I'll want to be able to if, God Forbid, today's the day for my gun fight. When I need something smaller/lighter than that, I put the LCR or LCP in a pocket holster, and I KNOW I'm not ready for anything but the briefest,most limited engagement window (going to the mailbox sort of thing).

YMMV, of course, and this is just one man's experience.

[Lost River]

For me there is a line,

I note that a lot of guys are wearing these new latest greatest micro guns in belt holsters. This is my thought process; If I am going to wear a belt holster, I am going to carry at the very least a G19. If I am carrying my G19, most the time a G17, especially IWB, is really virtually no different, and I shoot it better.

Now with that said, I like the new little blasters over what we used to be limited to. They are outstanding and we need to continue to innovate.

For years, I used to tell guys (and gals) that there were really only two types of pocket guns I would trust my life to. Those were J Frames and Baby Glocks, IE the G26 & G27.

Those were really about it from an ultra reliability standpoint, that were commonly available and affordable for the average person/young officer. Now were are absolutely living in the best of times. These really are the "Good Old Days".

The new mini Glocks like the G43, Sig 365, Hellcat, S&W Shields, all of them have really changed the game. However, I see them (for me) as pocket guns.

If they do not fit comfortably and allow a draw from the pocket, I will choose to go to a G19 sized platform and have a gun that I can perform optimally with.

The question I tend to ask myself/others is: What is the smallest gun that you would feel comfortable getting into a gunfight with?

If you are comfortable getting into a gunfight with a couple of dudes with a Ruger LC9, go for it. I am not.

I am REALLY liking my kiddo's G1 Shield. I am amazed at the performance, light weight, accuracy of the thing. Outstanding little pocket gun. Frankly I am jealous of her sweet little blaster.


If Christmas was not right around the corner I would get one for myself, and take advantage of the rebate they are currently offering. That said, kids, bills and family obligations all come first. Being off work for 2 months recovering from back surgery has not done my finances any favor, so I will continue to roll with my 442 as my pocket gun, with the 19/17 as a daily belt gun.

Maybe in 2020 though. :cool:

[TGS]

As a longtime P30 user, I've always coveted the P30SK. But man...when you hold the 10-rd P30SK (or VP9SK or even P2000SK) next to a 10-rd 365, or even a 43x...the size/weight difference is completely insane. If size-efficiency factors into your decision making process at all, the disparity between the "subcompact" of 2-3 years ago versus what's available today is impossible to ignore.

Which one can you shoot better? I imagine it might be a wash because of the shitty trigger on HK P-series, so substitute the P30SK for any number of striker fired double-stack small guns.

I see people rushing to go smaller and smaller because they hold just as many (or close) bullets as the gun they used to carry; the majority of people aren't buying P365s to replace a similarly sized pistol they used to carry...….they're buying it to replace bigger guns, but convincing themselves it's "the same thing" because of the mag capacity.

What hasn't changed in the last 2-3 years is physics, and the smaller guns get the harder they are to shoot well. I find this phenomenon an interesting thing to observe on P-F.com, a site where people self-identify as valuing applied performance more than simple paper metrics regarding their guns...…..

_________________________

Tangent:

I've seen sort of a suddle "Awakening" at my agency over the last 6 months as people start to shoot our new, stricter quals. When we switched to the Glocks, everyone got overconfident about their abilities with the 26 because the course of fire wasn't rigorous enough to show the shooter their true abilities with the two guns (G26 and G19)….add to that we fire the G26 after the G19, so you are "Warmed up" and tend to shoot better.

Now comes the new courses of fire, where we're tracking nearly double the failure rates on the qual with the G26 compared to the G19 (even after "Warming up" on the Glock 19). Previously all these people who thought they could shoot the 26 just as well as the 19 are having an, "Aha!" moment, and some are wanting to carry their 19 when on-duty for enforcement or protection ops when previously they wanted to carry the 26 because it was smaller, but with a PMAG still carried a similar amount of rounds as our previous P229 (and if that was good enough, why wouldn't this be enough?). Many agents will still carry their 26s on administrative or investigative duties, but I have noticed that people in general are more aware, and no longer are pretending they're carrying something "just as good" simply because of similar capacity.

I think the same thing will happen, and in due time people are P-F.com will come around and go back to bigger guns for carry due to the difference in applied performance, regardless of the fact they might carry a similar amount of ammunition.

*Interesting to note that the Shield Arms guy even said this as a reason you should still consider carrying a Glock 19 over a G43X w/Shield Arms 15 round mags.

[STI]

They don’t work for me and I’m not a fan.

Doesn’t matter who invents/revises what super subcompact model, my hands aren’t getting any smaller, size M/L. If it’s single or 1.5 stack then I can’t consistently keep a good grip for anything except slow fire.

I try to indulge the fact that I could be wrong each time one of these new ones comes along - I go rent and shoot it, using full house duty ammo. Every time so far the results are the same - frustratingly worse than my vetted Gen 3 26.

[Lost River]

Grin, we should sticky this and in 6-8 years say " THIS is what I was talking about..."


I had a parallel conversation about low power variable scopes on M4s circa 2006-2007 time frame.

About 98% of the guys thought I was a bit odd in my thought process for running a 1.5-5 illuminated Leupold.

https://i.imgur.com/bXpWbwL.jpg

Fast forward 10 years and it is freaking Koolaid..



Give it time, the pendulum will swing.. :cool:

[STI]

Fast forward 10 years and it is freaking Koolaid..

Give it time, the pendulum will swing.. :cool:

We’ll see, you don’t need a differently sized eyeball to use a LPVO over a dot ...