.45 Minor Defense

[Jim Watson]

1. Tolerance. My nerves and arthritis let me shoot 9mm regularly. USPSA Minor isn't winning me anything but a Major Flinch wouldn't either and be a lot less fun. Major or full power .45 hurts and will kick me into a flinch in short order. I load .45s way down to keep from retiring the guns. My carry and house guns are mostly 9mm.

2. Recommendations. A lot of people consider .38 Wadcutter to be suitable for self defense.

3. So what about .45 Midrange? Would I be reasonably well armed with a 185 gr at 775 fps? That's about all the fun I can stand for a reasonable practice with the Commander.

[45dotACP]

I run a barely major PF load in my Springfield RO that I use in USPSA. The government model 45 auto I shoot it through has less felt recoil than a Commander framed 9mm IMO.

Most handgun rounds are not great, so I would focus on being able to get good hits and focus on the ammo as a secondary concern. If the lessened recoil of a .45 minor load improves your shooting I can't imagine it being bad in any way except that you might need to change springs.

Why not carry a 9mm government model though? That would be even easier to shoot.

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[358156hp]

It seems to me that one of the military shooting teams is shooting 185 gr 45 ACP loads that use a Nolser hollowpoint bullet, but I'll be darned if I can remember which branch is using it. Somebody like Wilson Combat, or Georgia Arms might have a version of it. I'm hoping somebody here will see this and fill in the blanks for me.

ETA- Nosler offers such a match load but doesn't list the velocity.

[BehindBlueI's]

3. So what about .45 Midrange? Would I be reasonably well armed with a 185 gr at 775 fps? That's about all the fun I can stand for a reasonable practice with the Commander.

Assuming a non-expanding bullet, probably be just fine. I think an expanding bullet likely wouldn't do very well in that combination of light-for-caliber and slow speeds. With a non-deforming bullet I'd be surprised if you didn't get 18" or so of penetration in soft tissue only hits, so I would plan on over penetration.

I thought Buffalo Bore offered something like this, and a quick Google later: https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=340 A touch faster and they claim about 20" of penetration.

[Jim Watson]

Asym 185 JHP at 775 fps f 143 is what I was looking at. Unlikely to expand, probably penetrate ok.
Atlanta AMU is a good deal hotter, 185 at 910, f 168.
Wilson has a 200 HAP at 770, f 154 but only in "remanufactured."

Of course I can handload (gasp!) anything that seems suitable.

Over the past few years, I have slid from Hornady 9112, a 200 XTP at 900 fps (Mr Browning's 1905 load) to Barely Major, 200 at 840 or 230 at 750 and now looking Minor.

Sure, I can - do - do a lot with 9mm, but I'd like to keep the .45s working.

[jetfire]

If you can 1) find it, and 2) your gun will feed them, the Federal Gold Medal Match 185gr JSWC is an incredibly easy to shoot round that is about a 140 PF, if memory serves. I ran them the year I shot a .45 ACP at Bianchi Cup and they were quite accurate and fun to shoot.

[HCM]

1. Tolerance. My nerves and arthritis let me shoot 9mm regularly. USPSA Minor isn't winning me anything but a Major Flinch wouldn't either and be a lot less fun. Major or full power .45 hurts and will kick me into a flinch in short order. I load .45s way down to keep from retiring the guns. My carry and house guns are mostly 9mm.

2. Recommendations. A lot of people consider .38 Wadcutter to be suitable for self defense.

3. So what about .45 Midrange? Would I be reasonably well armed with a 185 gr at 775 fps? That's about all the fun I can stand for a reasonable practice with the Commander.

A lot of people consider .38 wadcutter the best compromise for lightweight 5 shot revolvers or extremely recoil sensitive people in larger guns. But it’s a compromise.

Improved shot placement is what makes the compromise worthwhile.

I would say your midrange 45 load would be viable for the same reason. Assuming your gun runs it (or can be made to run it) reliably.

Just understand the compromise you are making vs a 9mm with modern ammunition.

[HCM]

It seems to me that one of the military shooting teams is shooting 185 gr 45 ACP loads that use a Nolser hollowpoint bullet, but I'll be darned if I can remember which branch is using it. Somebody like Wilson Combat, or Georgia Arms might have a version of it. I'm hoping somebody here will see this and fill in the blanks for me.

ETA- Nosler offers such a match load but doesn't list the velocity.

Atlanta Arms AMU load but it’s listed as being 900 Fps.

https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-45-acp-185gr-jhp.html

[Jim Watson]

I know.
Which is why I have revised my opinion of the DWX-C. Commander size, 15 tries.
I have about a 3 or 4 for one turnover in mind to get one if the live reviews match the hype.

But I'd like to keep the Commander On The Street some, too.

[Hambo]

It seems to me that one of the military shooting teams is shooting 185 gr 45 ACP loads that use a Nolser hollowpoint bullet

USMC. I'm not sure if they still use it or not, but it was about accuracy, not defense.

[Jim Watson]

I don't know if the USMC Nosler load is more accurate than FMJ SWC but I bet it feeds better.

[awp_101]

USMC. I'm not sure if they still use it or not, but it was about accuracy, not defense.
Does anyone offer it as a commercial load? All I’m finding so far is load data to roll your own.

[Hambo]

Does anyone offer it as a commercial load? All I’m finding so far is load data to roll your own.

Not that I know of. My notes on the load go back to 2003, and the data I have is for the 185gr Nosler, WST powder, and Federal 150M primers. I see that more recent versions use VV powder.

[BN]

If you can 1) find it, and 2) your gun will feed them, the Federal Gold Medal Match 185gr JSWC is an incredibly easy to shoot round that is about a 140 PF, if memory serves. I ran them the year I shot a .45 ACP at Bianchi Cup and they were quite accurate and fun to shoot.

https://www.luckygunner.com/45-acp-185-gr-fmj-swc-match-federal-gold-medal-50-rounds

[MGW]

1. Tolerance. My nerves and arthritis let me shoot 9mm regularly. USPSA Minor isn't winning me anything but a Major Flinch wouldn't either and be a lot less fun. Major or full power .45 hurts and will kick me into a flinch in short order. I load .45s way down to keep from retiring the guns. My carry and house guns are mostly 9mm.

2. Recommendations. A lot of people consider .38 Wadcutter to be suitable for self defense.

3. So what about .45 Midrange? Would I be reasonably well armed with a 185 gr at 775 fps? That's about all the fun I can stand for a reasonable practice with the Commander.

Jim, are you looking for a factory practice round or a new carry round?

I've been loading 200-grain SWC pretty light for practice and I'm really happy with them. Saves me a lot of money on practice ammo too. I also spent some time with a gunsmith tuning my 1911's to get the recoil impulse I wanted. I was really surprised at how much recoil reduction could be found just by swapping some components around. I'm sure you have already done that though.

[Lost River]

1. Tolerance. My nerves and arthritis let me shoot 9mm regularly. USPSA Minor isn't winning me anything but a Major Flinch wouldn't either and be a lot less fun. Major or full power .45 hurts and will kick me into a flinch in short order. I load .45s way down to keep from retiring the guns. My carry and house guns are mostly 9mm.

2. Recommendations. A lot of people consider .38 Wadcutter to be suitable for self defense.

3. So what about .45 Midrange? Would I be reasonably well armed with a 185 gr at 775 fps? That's about all the fun I can stand for a reasonable practice with the Commander.

PF Pistoleers have already beat me to the punch!

After reading your post, the first thought was 185 grain SWCs. I have shot a fair number of these and they are soft shooting. Plus, while I have never shot a human with them, I can attest that the SWC design is actually a rather effective design from the hunting standpoint. I have taken lots, (and I mean literal truck bed loads of game) with SWCs and they are very good at punching nice caliber size cookie cutter holes through things.

I was not even aware you could get 185s in a jacketed GMM load, so that is all the better, as all I have ever used is hard cast, but either would work. Very soft shooting, and accurate to boot in every .45 I have ever used them in.

The magic recipe btw (if you reload) is 185 grain SWC and 4.3 grains Clays.

The same load I have used forever with my 200 grain SWCs, just with a lighter bullet.

[358156hp]

PF Pistoleers have already beat me to the punch!

After reading your post, the first thought was 185 grain SWCs. I have shot a fair number of these and they are soft shooting. Plus, while I have never shot a human with them, I can attest that the SWC design is actually a rather effective design from the hunting standpoint. I have taken lots, (and I mean literal truck bed loads of game) with SWCs and they are very good at punching nice caliber size cookie cutter holes through things.

I was not even aware you could get 185s in a jacketed GMM load, so that is all the better, as all I have ever used is hard cast, but either would work. Very soft shooting, and accurate to boot in every .45 I have ever used them in.

The magic recipe btw (if you reload) is 185 grain SWC and 4.3 grains Clays.

The same load I have used forever with my 200 grain SWCs, just with a lighter bullet.

If we're talking about handloads, H&G 68 or Lyman 452460 with the above mentioned 4.3 gr of Clays. With lower velocity loadings, self-defense loads need to revolve more on bullet design, and the best non-expanding bullet designs are found with cast bullets.

[45dotACP]

I may be wrong, but I think the NYPD stakeout unit was a big user of SWC ammo...including Bill Allard who was a proponent of the .45 caliber

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[HCM]

I may be wrong, but I think the NYPD stakeout unit was a big user of SWC ammo...including Bill Allard who was a proponent of the .45 caliber

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eh... not exactly. NYPD did eventually transition from 158 grain lead round nose to 158 grain +P LSWC as their standard .38 load but I think that was after the stakeout squad.

They were big proponents of 12 gauge slugs and .30 cal M1 carbines.

Jim Cirillo was a proponent of SWC and WC, preferably jacketed with a sharp edge so it would dig in rather than glance off when it hit bone. They had bullets glance off skulls and pelvises. They were know for shooting fleeing robbers in the buttocks / pelvis to try and prevent their escape.One squad member in particular shot so many fleeing robber's in the ass he was known as "The Proctologist."

Allard did carry a 1911 .45 national match as his "back up" to his .38 cal service weapon but it had as much to do with having used the 1911 in high level competition as it being a .45. The browning high power was the "back up" auto of choice among NYPD in those days.

The stakeout squad was primarily made up of NYPD firearms instructors who were idle/ surplus during a hiring freeze and layoff. Keep in mind NYPD hires 1500 to 2500 cops per academy class and runs a couple classes per year to keep up with attrition from injuries, retirements etc. The hiring freeze meant 30-40 of their FI staff were excess to their needs. All of whom were the competition shooters, hunters, etc.

In other words the results the stakeout squad achieved were much more the result of software than hardware.

Cirillo was also a fan of .45 and 10mm in his later years, usually in S&W Autos. Regardless, neither was using a "minor" power factor load.

[45dotACP]

Ah, my mistake. Very interesting information btw.

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[Hambo]

I may be wrong, but I think the NYPD stakeout unit was a big user of SWC ammo...including Bill Allard who was a proponent of the .45 caliber

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According to Cirillo, Allard carried .45 WC in the chamber of his .45, and SWCs in the magazine.

[jd950]

Well if we are discussing such ammo in a law enforcement or self defense context, Allard said in an interview a few years back that "unfortunately in those days ammunition was not what it is today; we didn't have good hollow points. We used ball, so we were at a slight disadvantage."

In the mid-1970's I also used ball or SWC ammo in a 1911, but that was because there was nothing better (or at least nothing better that would reliably cycle), not because it was a particularly good choice. I am not comparing myself in any manner to those guys; I am just saying that the ammo they chose then is almost certainly not what they would choose today.

FWIW.

[Lost River]

eh... not exactly. NYPD did eventually transition from 158 grain lead round nose to 158 grain +P LSWC as their standard .38 load but I think that was after the stakeout squad.

They were big proponents of 12 gauge slugs and .30 cal M1 carbines.

Jim Cirillo was a proponent of SWC and WC, preferably jacketed with a sharp edge so it would dig in rather than glance off when it hit bone. They had bullets glance off skulls and pelvises. They were know for shooting fleeing robbers in the buttocks / pelvis to try and prevent their escape.One squad member in particular shot so many fleeing robber's in the ass he was known as "The Proctologist."

Allard did carry a 1911 .45 national match as his "back up" to his .38 cal service weapon but it had as much to do with having used the 1911 in high level competition as it being a .45. The browning high power was the "back up" auto of choice among NYPD in those days.

The stakeout squad was primarily made up of NYPD firearms instructors who were idle/ surplus during a hiring freeze and layoff. Keep in mind NYPD hires 1500 to 2500 cops per academy class and runs a couple classes per year to keep up with attrition from injuries, retirements etc. The hiring freeze meant 30-40 of their FI staff were excess to their needs. All of whom were the competition shooters, hunters, etc.

In other words the results the stakeout squad achieved were much more the result of software than hardware.

Cirillo was also a fan of .45 and 10mm in his later years, usually in S&W Autos. Regardless, neither was using a "minor" power factor load.


Speaking of Jim Cirillo,

Ken, H allowed the privilege of examining and taking a couple of pics of one of Cirillo's 3" K Frames one time not too long ago. Double cool in my book!

https://i.imgur.com/CVWpid1.jpg


Please disregard the dirty hands, we had been shooting.

:cool:

[Lost River]

I realize there is obviously better modern ammo, but I would not feel poorly armed at all if all I had was a full magazine of .45 caliber hard cast 230-250 grain SWCs pushed at typical .45 ACP velocities.

[revchuck38]

I realize there is obviously better modern ammo, but I would not feel poorly armed at all if all I had was a full magazine of .45 caliber hard cast 230-250 grain SWCs pushed at typical .45 ACP velocities.

I'd love to find a source for commercially cast 230-grain coated LSWCs. If they were useable in an autoloader, that'd be gravy.

[Hambo]

I'd love to find a source for commercially cast 230-grain coated LSWCs. If they were useable in an autoloader, that'd be gravy.

They're not 230gr, but they look interesting https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=426&category=20&secondary=13

[revchuck38]

They're not 230gr, but they look interesting https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=426&category=20&secondary=13

Yeah, they do!

[358156hp]

I realize there is obviously better modern ammo, but I would not feel poorly armed at all if all I had was a full magazine of .45 caliber hard cast 230-250 grain SWCs pushed at typical .45 ACP velocities.

LBT 230 gr LFN. Veral Smith refers to it as the best "soft target" 45 ACP design:
45626

[RevolverRob]

Dallas PD allowed officers to carry weapons of their choice for most of the 20th century. If you read the book on Holloway’s Raiders (Dallas’ longer running, even more successful stakeout squad), while their preferences were for 12-gauge buckshot from an 870, there were quite a few shootouts conducted with 1911s and various revolvers in .38/.357 during a nearly 20-year period. A lot of dead bad guys, and the long and short remains - hits count, misses don’t.

[Lost River]

Rim Rock Bullets of Montana makes a 255 grain hard cast SWC for .45 ACPs. While I have used a bunch of their bullets, I have not used that particular one. That said, a 255 SWC would be a very solid choice if one had no access to JHPs, could not afford them, or whatever the circumstances.

[03RN]

Rim Rock Bullets of Montana makes a 255 grain hard cast SWC for .45 ACPs. While I have used a bunch of their bullets, I have not used that particular one. That said, a 255 SWC would be a very solid choice if one had no access to JHPs, could not afford them, or whatever the circumstances.

I use their .45 colt one over 9 grains of unique in my blackhawk/m92. Hammers deer.

[Hambo]

LBT 230 gr LFN. Veral Smith refers to it as the best "soft target" 45 ACP design:


How did I miss those at https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-acp-lbt-230gr-lfn-pb/?

I'm going to get some next time I order from them.

[358156hp]

How did I miss those at https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-acp-lbt-230gr-lfn-pb/?

I'm going to get some next time I order from them.

I soooo want to take them deer hunting, but 45 ACP isn't a legal caliber in my state. I suppose I could buy a 45 LC revolver and load some to 45 ACP +P-ish velocities. This design does feed in stock 1911s for me, and everything else I've tried them in.

[john c]

1. Tolerance. My nerves and arthritis let me shoot 9mm regularly. USPSA Minor isn't winning me anything but a Major Flinch wouldn't either and be a lot less fun. Major or full power .45 hurts and will kick me into a flinch in short order. I load .45s way down to keep from retiring the guns. My carry and house guns are mostly 9mm.

2. Recommendations. A lot of people consider .38 Wadcutter to be suitable for self defense.

3. So what about .45 Midrange? Would I be reasonably well armed with a 185 gr at 775 fps? That's about all the fun I can stand for a reasonable practice with the Commander.

Jim;

I'm sorry to hear of your arthritis. It will get us all, one day.

As others have mentioned, Federal Gold Medal Match .45 ACP SWC is what you're looking for. https://www.luckygunner.com/45-acp-185-gr-fmj-swc-match-federal-gold-medal-50-rounds

I've used it some, for Bullseye shooting, and it shoots great. A 185 gr SWC travelling at 775 fps must surely equal or surpass a 148 gr .38 spl wadcutter at 700 fps. I've also tried the ASYM .45 National Match, which is the same combination but with a JHP bullet. I don't know if it will expand at 775 fps, but you could contact Nosler or Precision Delta and ask.

You can easily load practice ammo with off-the-shelf 185 gr cast bullets and 3.8 gr to 4.1 gr of Bullseye.

Good luck!

[paherne]

Wouldn't that load pretty much be an analog of .455 Webley? The Webley round had a good reputation for putting guys down.

[LtDave]

Wouldn't that load pretty much be an analog of .455 Webley? The Webley round had a good reputation for putting guys down.

The Fiocchi .455 factory load is a 265 grain lead bullet at 660 fps.

[Wayne Dobbs]

LBT 230 gr LFN. Veral Smith refers to it as the best "soft target" 45 ACP design:
45626

What OAL are those?

[Wayne Dobbs]

They're not 230gr, but they look interesting https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=426&category=20&secondary=13

Way back in the day, Jeff Cooper advocated the similar 215 Markell SWC in .45 ACP over a very manly charge of Unique. I'm sure he was on to something there.

[358156hp]

SAECOs bowling pin bullet has a really large meplat as well. I had that before my LBT mould but it didn't feed in one of my 1911s well at all, so I sold it off and concentrated on the LBT mould.

[358156hp]

What OAL are those?

I load to roughly 1.25. LBTs are a "weight forward" design, and my guns feed them really well.

[Dave T]

Jim; I've also tried the ASYM .45 National Match, which is the same combination but with a JHP bullet. I don't know if it will expand at 775 fps...

Even if it doesn't expand, the sharper edge of the HP design "helps solve the problem of obliquity", to quote someone (who I can't remember) from years ago. It would be more inclined to dig in rather than glance off things like bones.

Dave

[LorenzoS]

Sorry to be late to the discussion, but why use a lower powered .45 ACP when there are plenty of 9mm defensive loads like HST or Gold Dot that are proven to be effective?

[john c]

Sorry to be late to the discussion, but why use a lower powered .45 ACP when there are plenty of 9mm defensive loads like HST or Gold Dot that are proven to be effective?

I'm not Jim, but from my experience 9mm recoil is much sharper than .45 acp "softball" loads. Higher velocity rounds means higher slide velocity and a sharper smack when the slide bottoms out before returning to battery.

[Jim Watson]

Even if it doesn't expand, the sharper edge of the HP design "helps solve the problem of obliquity", to quote someone (who I can't remember) from years ago. It would be more inclined to dig in rather than glance off things like bones.

Dave

Low velocity ogival JHP is probably a smoother feed than the stubby factory match SWC.


Sorry to be late to the discussion, but why use a lower powered .45 ACP when there are plenty of 9mm defensive loads like HST or Gold Dot that are proven to be effective?

Well, I do, to a good extent. But the Commander is my sweet spot in metal pistol portability and shootability, my Commander is a .45 and I like to keep it and others working without kicking.