NYC Cops shoot at killer 84 times at fair distance... [Archive]

TCinVA

04-25-2012, 10:43 AM

I don't believe most officers on patrol in NYPD have routine access to long guns. If they do, I'm sure the deployment of them is covered by a number of policies that would probably have prohibited preemptively grabbing one on what appears to be an instance where the cops happened upon the bad man in question.

...and I have to say that if NYPD was going to expend that kind of ammo I can't think of a better candidate than a dude who murdered his sister while she slept and then shot his mother in the head. That he survived that sort of expenditure of ammunition is yet another example of what I refer to as Scumbag Survival Syndrome. Like roaches these bastards just won't have the decency to die when they should.

I don't like sociopaths because sociopaths would literally kill their own mother. In debates with others (a fruitless activity, usually) I'm often accused of hyperbole, making these people sound worse than they are. I submit this genius as evidence that if anything I'm far too bloody kind in describing these bastards.

peterb

04-25-2012, 10:46 AM

It's my understanding that NYPD doesn't issue long guns to patrol units.

Not even a shotgun? 70 feet(if the article is accurate) is well within the effective range for tight-patterning buckshot, and certainly for slugs.

TGS

04-25-2012, 10:48 AM

Not even a shotgun? 70 feet(if the article is accurate) is well within the effective range for tight-patterning buckshot, and certainly for slugs.

Only certain detective units serving warrants and ESU are trained or authorized to use shotguns.

Jay Cunningham

04-25-2012, 10:48 AM

“[Murray] still had the gun in his hand. He wouldn’t obey orders. He was pointing [the gun] at the cops, and he wouldn’t respond,” the source said. “After he finally went down, he still had the gun in his hand, and he was still moving."

We covered a lot of this kind of thing in a recent Tom Givens class. The police were justified in continuing to shoot the guy until he stopped being a threat to them. So that part is pretty clear.

I won't comment on the rest of it.

peterb

04-25-2012, 10:53 AM

Only certain detective units serving warrants and ESU are trained or authorized to use shotguns.

Interesting. Thanks.

David Armstrong

04-25-2012, 10:56 AM

Only certain detective units serving warrants and ESU are trained or authorized to use shotguns.
Sadly, that is not so unusual. A number of agencies still do not allow their patrol officers to carry long guns, reserving them for special units or details.

EMC

04-25-2012, 02:16 PM

Sadly, that is not so unusual. A number of agencies still do not allow their patrol officers to carry long guns, reserving them for special units or details.

I keep thinking back to the North Hollywood shootout. You would think they learned from that. Then again, a lot of folks keep complaining about the militarization of the police force.

peterb

04-25-2012, 02:55 PM

Then again, a lot of folks keep complaining about the militarization of the police force.

Which is a valid point. But you can be a friendly neighborhood beat cop and still have good tools available.

Our town is tiny. Our police spend more time checking on elderly folks and attending town functions than they do dealing with violent crime, but there's a carbine and a shotgun in the rack in the cruiser. Backup can be a long way away. They also need a good way to deal with large wildlife that's aggressive or has been injured.

ToddG

04-25-2012, 03:08 PM

There is a Grand Canyon sized gap between giving a cop a carbine or shotgun for dealing with dangerous threats when possible, and sending a ninja-masked eight man team through the wall of a house to serve a search warrant for an ounce of pot or some tax records.

We've come such a long way since the entire concept of the no-knock warrant was only questionably constitutional...

Dr. No

04-25-2012, 07:16 PM

LtDave

04-25-2012, 10:06 PM

TGS

04-25-2012, 10:28 PM

Just getting all of NYPD to the range once a year has to be a monumental undertaking. Figure 100 people a day, 365 days a year, firing 50 rounds each. So that is 5000 rounds/day or roughly 1.8 million rounds/yr just for quals. Also figure they're going to have a fair number of reshoots for failures to qualify.

It really is amazing to think about how big NYPD is. Their academy classes are bigger than the entire force of most "large" LE agencies....and they have multiple classes per year. They've got more sworn officers than Australia has active duty soldiers. The next biggest local LE agency in America is 1/3 the size of NYPD.

737

Nuts.

LittleLebowski

04-26-2012, 01:19 PM

I keep thinking back to the North Hollywood shootout. You would think they learned from that. Then again, a lot of folks keep complaining about the militarization of the police force.

It's not the weapons that most folks (including myself) complain about. It's tactics and the reasoning behind them.

derekb

04-26-2012, 04:08 PM

It's not the weapons that most folks (including myself) complain about. It's tactics and the reasoning behind them.

And the recent series of police arresting grade schoolers incidents.

Dr. No

04-26-2012, 09:41 PM

And the recent series of police arresting grade schoolers incidents.

No offense, but what does any of that stupidity have anything to do with good cops shooting at a murderer and attempted cop killer ?

Kindly keep that crap in its own lane.

I, for one, wish my brothers had the tools they desperately needed that day in order to take the fight to evil and win. I'm thankful they were able to stop this POS before anyone else got hurt.

Doc

Gray222

04-26-2012, 10:09 PM

I have a NY1 trigger in my G21. It BLOWS. My "on the buzzer" speed draw and shoot are always low and left, which is either me or the crappy trigger. I tend to believe its the crappy trigger since I don't shoot low and left on the buzzer from a draw with any other gun with any lighter trigger - maybe I'm wrong.

As for quals, what a joke. I took the last yearly qual, scoring a -2 (out of a 100 point scale) for winging two out of the "hit zone" (which is the size of a person) because I did not aim at all really, just put the front sight over the target and let one rip.

There were people who failed, and failed hard. So any more difficult of a qual they would not have a gun. Not its a bad thing, its just a lot of work for a lot of people who have nothing to do with real police work.

I am surprised with the 12# NYPD trigger they have in those guns they can hit anything.

This also goes to prove that pistols suck at killing people. Especially drunk and crazy people. It's amazing the types of injuries they can sustain and still fight.

Cops ... on the other hand .... we take a .22 to the arm and fall over dead. Life is cruel that way, somehow. :(

Doc

Understatement.

We have had a guy shot at under 10y with an AK a dozen or so times in the chest, not only live, but out walking around smoking weed two days later. An Officer can get hit by a 5th ricochet of a .22 in the toe and die instantly.

NickA

04-27-2012, 09:20 AM

We have had a guy shot at under 10y with an AK a dozen or so times in the chest, not only live, but out walking around smoking weed two days later. An Officer can get hit by a 5th ricochet of a .22 in the toe and die instantly.
And sometimes it seems to be both- in the Jared Reston shooting I think he took 7 hits from a 45, including one in the jaw, and he put 7 in the BG before he thankfully prevailed. There's an excellent interview with him by Ayoob on the ProArms podcast walking through the whole thing. Scary as hell how a shoplifting can turn into a full on close range gunfight.

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TCinVA

04-27-2012, 10:01 AM

I've run into Officer Reston a couple of times in my training adventures over the years. He's a great guy.

NickA

04-27-2012, 10:10 AM

I've run into Officer Reston a couple of times in my training adventures over the years. He's a great guy.

Good to know. Google fu reveals that he's got his own training outfit now, pretty cool.

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David Armstrong

04-27-2012, 10:58 AM

I am surprised with the 12# NYPD trigger they have in those guns they can hit anything.

This also goes to prove that pistols suck at killing people. Especially drunk and crazy people. It's amazing the types of injuries they can sustain and still fight.

Cops ... on the other hand .... we take a .22 to the arm and fall over dead. Life is cruel that way, somehow. :(

Doc
I'm not sure why so many seem to think a 12# pull is that difficult to manage. When I was growing up 12# was a pretty standard weight, maybe even sort of light, for DA revolvers and the DA pull on DA/SA autos, and folks did some pretty good shooting.

David Armstrong

04-27-2012, 11:01 AM

I keep thinking back to the North Hollywood shootout. You would think they learned from that. Then again, a lot of folks keep complaining about the militarization of the police force.
I've argued at times that a good 30-30 lever action would be a great patrol weapon. Inoffensive in looks, no military connotations, quite effective for what is needed.

GJM

04-27-2012, 11:19 AM

I've argued at times that a good 30-30 lever action would be a great patrol weapon. Inoffensive in looks, no military connotations, quite effective for what is needed.

As did Jeff Cooper, and the Gunsite Gunsmithy offered a 30-30 package for a number of years, with modifications appropriate for such a use. In his commentaries, Col. Cooper also discussed a similar lever gun in .44, which he referred to as the Brooklyn Special.

DocGKR

04-27-2012, 11:22 AM

I know several rural agencies that use .30-30 lever guns--they do work reasonably well, as do the M1 carbines that were issued by a couple of agencies. Having said that, the ergonomics, versatility, and capability of the AR15 FOW is hard to beat for a patrol rifle.

GJM

04-27-2012, 11:28 AM

I can't imagine anyone wanting a 30-30 lever gun over a quality AR, for scores of reasons, but if the choice is a 30-30 or no long gun, that is a pretty easy decision. A tougher call would be the choice between a 30-30 and a shotgun.

Dr. No

04-27-2012, 11:29 AM

I have a NY1 trigger in my G21. It BLOWS. My "on the buzzer" speed draw and shoot are always low and left, which is either me or the crappy trigger. I tend to believe its the crappy trigger since I don't shoot low and left on the buzzer from a draw with any other gun with any lighter trigger - maybe I'm wrong.

As for quals, what a joke. I took the last yearly qual, scoring a -2 (out of a 100 point scale) for winging two out of the "hit zone" (which is the size of a person) because I did not aim at all really, just put the front sight over the target and let one rip.

There were people who failed, and failed hard. So any more difficult of a qual they would not have a gun. Not its a bad thing, its just a lot of work for a lot of people who have nothing to do with real police work

Understatement.

We have had a guy shot at under 10y with an AK a dozen or so times in the chest, not only live, but out walking around smoking weed two days later. An Officer can get hit by a 5th ricochet of a .22 in the toe and die instantly.

It's no greener on the other side. We have to qualify our corrections guys once a year and it's honestly the first time I've ever been thankful I've worn body armor on the range. Some of our coppers are iffy, but ....

We had a homeless guy stab another with a lock blade. Went in the top of his chest above his breast bone and cracked him open like a doc was doing open heart surgery ... all this in a Valero bathroom. The guy was holding on to his entrails and organs as he ran out and collapsed. He, of course ...... lived.

Our agency lost a SWAT Deputy a decade ago because the POS stuck his hand through a trailer door window and randomly emptied the magazine. One round of 9mm went just past the Deputy's armor and clipped his aorta. He bled out in seconds. Fucking awful.

Doc

JHC

04-27-2012, 11:33 AM

I'm not sure why so many seem to think a 12# pull is that difficult to manage. When I was growing up 12# was a pretty standard weight, maybe even sort of light, for DA revolvers and the DA pull on DA/SA autos, and folks did some pretty good shooting.

I've never felt how crappy a NY2 trigger is in a G19 but I have many years on S&W K frames in DA. I'm kinda thinking the two are quite different. 12 lbs of Glock sproing on a 22oz pistol vs 12 lbs of S&W pull on a 36-38 oz wheelie. And DA first shot on a Sig, etc somewhere in between probably.

Dr. No

04-27-2012, 11:34 AM

And sometimes it seems to be both- in the Jared Reston shooting I think he took 7 hits from a 45, including one in the jaw, and he put 7 in the BG before he thankfully prevailed. There's an excellent interview with him by Ayoob on the ProArms podcast walking through the whole thing. Scary as hell how a shoplifting can turn into a full on close range gunfight.

I will tell you, with authority, that Officer Reston is the exception rather than the rule. I'm not in any way taking away from him, because I believe he is a true warrior in every sense of the word. I hold him in the highest regard and hope that if I ever run into the devil I will fight the same way.

The Austin Police Department who was just murdered responded to a shoplifting call and ran into an intoxicated guy who was intent on committing an armed robbery, which was proven when they pulled the film of him taking his gun out in the parking lot and chambering a round before he went into the walmart.

We had a Deputy who was working off duty at a big shopping plaza here who got into a long foot pursuit with shoplifters in the end where they ambushed him, knocked him to the ground, and all three beat him until he couldn't move so they could get away.

By empirical evidence, shoplifters are some of the most dangerous criminals in the world.

Doc

Gray222

04-27-2012, 11:39 AM

And sometimes it seems to be both- in the Jared Reston shooting I think he took 7 hits from a 45, including one in the jaw, and he put 7 in the BG before he thankfully prevailed. There's an excellent interview with him by Ayoob on the ProArms podcast walking through the whole thing. Scary as hell how a shoplifting can turn into a full on close range gunfight.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

I read about that, crazy stuff can turn out from any such situation. The stories I can share (but can't due to opsec) would blow many minds.

It's no greener on the other side. We have to qualify our corrections guys once a year and it's honestly the first time I've ever been thankful I've worn body armor on the range. Some of our coppers are iffy, but ....

We had a homeless guy stab another with a lock blade. Went in the top of his chest above his breast bone and cracked him open like a doc was doing open heart surgery ... all this in a Valero bathroom. The guy was holding on to his entrails and organs as he ran out and collapsed. He, of course ...... lived.

Our agency lost a SWAT Deputy a decade ago because the POS stuck his hand through a trailer door window and randomly emptied the magazine. One round of 9mm went just past the Deputy's armor and clipped his aorta. He bled out in seconds. Fucking awful.

Doc

We are not required to wear armor to the range, but there are literally half a dozen RSO's watching every move of every officer. It is still pathetic.

Dr. No

04-27-2012, 11:46 AM

I've argued at times that a good 30-30 lever action would be a great patrol weapon. Inoffensive in looks, no military connotations, quite effective for what is needed.

This is the problem. "Inoffensive in looks". Honestly, why does anyone give a damn what a weapon system LOOKS like??? I had a Sergeant lecture me when I and my partner (along with four other coppers) took our AR15's on an apprehension at a home where a guy had tried to kill his brother in law with a knife. He told me that "he was afraid of what the neighbors will say when they see those rifles".

I was aghast. I asked him, from a use of force perspective, what the difference was between pointing a rifle at a felony suspect vs a pistol. He, of course, said there was none. I then went into a long dissertation about how rifles were safer due to their accuracy (easier to align sights/optics under stress), lethality (less rounds fired), and that they will not over penetrate walls like pistol rounds were. I quoted numerous trainers, our own policies, and the law. In the end, I wrote about a 5 page report on something that barely should have been a page.

Needless to say, IA cleared all of us of any wrongdoing and the bad guy was sentenced to a long jail term. My Sergeant ended up going to our patrol rifle school and later had me help him build his rifle up with a light, sling, etc. About a year later he told me about how that whole incident changed his mind about rifles and then going to the school educated him about their use and how they can only help.

If my agency only had a 30-30 on the list, I would carry one. Rifles are a must because, as you all know being on this site and being students of the pistol, pistols are hard to shoot! Rifles can bring nothing but benefits not only to the Officers engaged in a deadly force encounter, but to citizens (less stray rounds off target), and to victims (I'd rather have a rifle any day than a pistol if I had to take a hostage shot).

Thankfully in the South we don't contend with 'perception' issues as much as our brothers to the north, but there are still attitudes out there that need to be changed so that everyone can be safer by getting coppers the right tools for the job.

Doc

Gray222

04-27-2012, 11:59 AM

This is the problem. "Inoffensive in looks". Honestly, why does anyone give a damn what a weapon system LOOKS like??? I had a Sergeant lecture me when I and my partner (along with four other coppers) took our AR15's on an apprehension at a home where a guy had tried to kill his brother in law with a knife. He told me that "he was afraid of what the neighbors will say when they see those rifles".

I was aghast. I asked him, from a use of force perspective, what the difference was between pointing a rifle at a felony suspect vs a pistol. He, of course, said there was none. I then went into a long dissertation about how rifles were safer due to their accuracy (easier to align sights/optics under stress), lethality (less rounds fired), and that they will not over penetrate walls like pistol rounds were. I quoted numerous trainers, our own policies, and the law. In the end, I wrote about a 5 page report on something that barely should have been a page.

Needless to say, IA cleared all of us of any wrongdoing and the bad guy was sentenced to a long jail term. My Sergeant ended up going to our patrol rifle school and later had me help him build his rifle up with a light, sling, etc. About a year later he told me about how that whole incident changed his mind about rifles and then going to the school educated him about their use and how they can only help.

If my agency only had a 30-30 on the list, I would carry one. Rifles are a must because, as you all know being on this site and being students of the pistol, pistols are hard to shoot! Rifles can bring nothing but benefits not only to the Officers engaged in a deadly force encounter, but to citizens (less stray rounds off target), and to victims (I'd rather have a rifle any day than a pistol if I had to take a hostage shot).

Thankfully in the South we don't contend with 'perception' issues as much as our brothers to the north, but there are still attitudes out there that need to be changed so that everyone can be safer by getting coppers the right tools for the job.

Doc

You are very lucky in this regard.

Here they go as far as to deny us the ability to have a SINGLE cargo pocket in our uniforms because the brass (in their infinite wisdom) thought it was too "tactical" looking and would give off the wrong impression. They outright refuse to let us carry anything besides a pistol. Our long gun policy is by all aspects very retarded.

I took a few guys to a range and showed them a few things with an AR15, how to correctly load/reload/clear issues, positions of fire from cover, etc. They said that the long gun training was a joke and only covered some stupid crap that would never help anyone.

Its pretty sad.

David Armstrong

04-27-2012, 01:03 PM

I've never felt how crappy a NY2 trigger is in a G19 but I have many years on S&W K frames in DA. I'm kinda thinking the two are quite different. 12 lbs of Glock sproing on a 22oz pistol vs 12 lbs of S&W pull on a 36-38 oz wheelie. And DA first shot on a Sig, etc somewhere in between probably.
May be. I've used the NY2 without even realizing it when borrowing guns on the range or during training, and it seems that trigger weight doesn't make or break the shooter nearly as much as skill for gunfight purposes. Hit rates tend to be very similar even with different guns and ergonomics, AFAIK.

Jay Cunningham

04-27-2012, 01:04 PM

Is this topic really about heavy triggers?

David Armstrong

04-27-2012, 01:11 PM

David Armstrong

04-27-2012, 01:12 PM

Is this topic really about heavy triggers?
I don't think so. I'm thinking they probably would have missed just as much and hit just as little with a 5# trigger.

Gray222

04-27-2012, 01:26 PM

David Armstrong

04-27-2012, 01:53 PM

I agree, if we are talking about walking around with long guns and clearing corners looking like swat officers. But having a cargo pocket where there was none before?
FWIW, I agree, and function should generally trump form every time. But the reality is that it doesn't for many, if not most, people. Heck, IIRC some lady named Feinstein got a whole bunch of guns banned for a while based just on the way they looked.:(

ToddG

04-27-2012, 02:54 PM

Gray222

04-27-2012, 03:13 PM

Option A: friendly looking cops

Option B: cops armed adequately for the threats they're likely to face defending not only their own lives, but the public at large -- like my wife and me -- as well

I vote B.

Better cool it with that common sense, mister. You might hurt someone.

JHC

04-27-2012, 06:20 PM

Is this topic really about heavy triggers?

Well noooo but maybe yessss partly. ;) I know the NYPD don't get a lot of official range time and all. But when they get this attention about missing and stuff and in this case, at a pretty long pistol shot distance, I think the NY2 trigger is pretty relevent.

David Armstrong

04-27-2012, 06:46 PM

Option A: friendly looking cops

Option B: cops armed adequately for the threats they're likely to face defending not only their own lives, but the public at large -- like my wife and me -- as well

I vote B.
Can we consider Option C: Friendly looking cops adequately armed for the threats they're likely to face??

ToddG

04-27-2012, 07:19 PM

Can we consider Option C: Friendly looking cops adequately armed for the threats they're likely to face??

I offered the options based on the presumed premiss that having ARs and such automatically equated with not looking friendly.

My county PD has gone from Love Boat uniforms to more tactical looking (including everyone wearing body armor over their uniforms) over the past decade and I don't think it's raised any eyebrows. This is in a relatively liberal, anti-gun, anti-violence community. If the officers started foot patrolling while wearing AR15s strapped across their chest, yeah, I think people would freak out a little bit. But that's not likely to be an issue because before they could start patrolling with AR15s the department would have to spend the money to train everyone, and we can't have that...

I guess I just don't see the cops as the enemy, I see them as my allies. They may be dearly and desperately needed allies some day. As such, I'd just assume every one of them be suited up like Iron Man ready to take out a small army single-handedly.

Jac

04-27-2012, 08:37 PM

And when Iron Man decides to serve a warrant for "an ounce of pot or some tax records"?

EMC

04-27-2012, 08:47 PM

I wish to apologize for driving this thread from a good discussion about long range police marksmanship into a "cops shouldn't have military hardware" discussion. Not my intent. I'll go put on the hair shirt now.

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TGS

04-27-2012, 09:15 PM

And when Iron Man decides to serve a warrant for "an ounce of pot or some tax records"?

Oh, I don't know......

Don't commit fraud and don't possess drugs?

JHC

04-27-2012, 09:33 PM

I guess I just don't see the cops as the enemy, I see them as my allies. They may be dearly and desperately needed allies some day. As such, I'd just assume every one of them be suited up like Iron Man ready to take out a small army single-handedly.

Me too. I've been "profiled" a couple times; as somebody that looked like they might be the type to be carrying and needed checking out. Hell, I was. ;)
I had to go through some motions. Good on them to stay safe.

Dr. No

04-27-2012, 10:14 PM

And when Iron Man decides to serve a warrant for "an ounce of pot or some tax records"?

Thank you for very succinctly pointing out that you have nothing worthwhile to contribute to the adults who are talking.

The fact that you would post something as ignorant as this in a thread about Law Enforcement in an active gunfight with a murderer shows how short sighted you really are.

Doc

Dr. No

04-27-2012, 10:18 PM

Why does anyone give a damn? Because of the post directly below, from voodoo. Like it or not LE does work for the public, and thus public perception is important. Took me a while as a LEO to learn that . Support for public service is based in large part on public perception of that service.

If the public does not understand that we face people who kill, rape, steal, and carry guns on a regular basis ... then perhaps they need to be educated as to how the world really is.

I am not interested in my public perception in regards to how I dress. If they think I "look mean" because I am carrying a rifle - they are probably right. I have my rifle because a suspect has taken an action that causes me to be in fear of my safety or the safety of others to the point where I believe I need a larger more effective weapon system to safely take them into custody.

I am interested in my public's perception as to how I treat people as human beings, how I maintain myself with honesty and integrity, and how I conduct myself with regards to the safety and preservation of human life. This is what is important as a maintainer of the peace.

Doc

Dr. No

04-27-2012, 10:21 PM

You are very lucky in this regard.

Here they go as far as to deny us the ability to have a SINGLE cargo pocket in our uniforms because the brass (in their infinite wisdom) thought it was too "tactical" looking and would give off the wrong impression. They outright refuse to let us carry anything besides a pistol. Our long gun policy is by all aspects very retarded.

I took a few guys to a range and showed them a few things with an AR15, how to correctly load/reload/clear issues, positions of fire from cover, etc. They said that the long gun training was a joke and only covered some stupid crap that would never help anyone.

Its pretty sad.

We are still wearing polyester from head to toe, with two pockets on our shirts and four on our pants. I'm in the same boat. We have asked, for years, for the same pants with cargo pockets on the sides to hold such items as tourniquets, medical gloves, paperwork, evidence collection tools, etc. You know .... cargo.

Luckily our long gun policy is much smarter.

The best thing you can do is take the brass out along with the guys who are good at what they do. Sooner or later the line guys will promote... and the attitudes at the top will retire.

LittleLebowski

04-27-2012, 10:22 PM

Oh, I don't know......

Don't commit fraud and don't possess drugs?

That argument seems like it would lead to the "if you have nothing to hide" path. Not good in my book.

ToddG

04-27-2012, 10:50 PM

And when Iron Man decides to serve a warrant for "an ounce of pot or some tax records"?

I understand where you're coming from in relation to my earlier post about that. However, my response would be no different than when anyone talks about restricting weapons to people because of what they might do: it's stupid. Taking long guns away from cops just to avoid inappropriate police action is like taking CCWs away from private citizens to avoid murders and muggings.

The answer to unnecessary SWAT raids isn't disarming the cops or reducing their ability to deal with legitimate danger. The answer is to establish smarter guidelines about who what when where how raids are authorized and executed.

TGS

04-27-2012, 10:58 PM

That argument seems like it would lead to the "if you have nothing to hide" path. Not good in my book.

Whatever floats your USS Sovereignty boat, dude. I'm not going to derail this thread further by going down this road with you. If the recommendation to not commit crimes in order to stay out of trouble is too much, then we'll just finish this here and consider me a jack-booted thug out to stomp your rights with the heel of my leather boot, made with a hand-rubbed finish from the blood of the plebeians. Seriously, because I'm not that abstract of a thinker to see how not committing fraud leads to 1984, and don't care.

TGS

04-27-2012, 10:59 PM

The answer to unnecessary SWAT raids isn't disarming the cops or reducing their ability to deal with legitimate danger. The answer is to establish smarter guidelines about who what when where how raids are authorized and executed.

Wait, what? Gun control works, Todd! ;)

Dr. No

04-27-2012, 11:02 PM

I understand where you're coming from in relation to my earlier post about that. However, my response would be no different than when anyone talks about restricting weapons to people because of what they might do: it's stupid. Taking long guns away from cops just to avoid inappropriate police action is like taking CCWs away from private citizens to avoid murders and muggings.

The answer to unnecessary SWAT raids isn't disarming the cops or reducing their ability to deal with legitimate danger. The answer is to establish smarter guidelines about who what when where how raids are authorized and executed.

I would also add to that answer that a better, more effective tactic would be to require units to vet their intelligence. Require them to scout their targets, in the daylight, prior to a raid. Take the CI or agent who has been to the location before with them in order to point out the location. Take photos and video of the target so that ALL team members know where they are going. Trust, but verify.

Too many of the 'bad hits' I've seen have been when intel was given to the team prior to the hit and no verification was done. We have rolled on targets that had the same address .... and were across the street from each other. (the last # in the address had fallen off)

Training is the answer. I can't teach a judge to judge any better. I can teach cops to be better cops.

LittleLebowski

04-28-2012, 06:42 AM

Whatever floats your USS Sovereignty boat, dude. I'm not going to derail this thread further by going down this road with you. If the recommendation to not commit crimes in order to stay out of trouble is too much, then we'll just finish this here and consider me a jack-booted thug out to stomp your rights with the heel of my leather boot, made with a hand-rubbed finish from the blood of the plebeians. Seriously, because I'm not that abstract of a thinker to see how not committing fraud leads to 1984, and don't care.

Hey Marine, let's dial back the vitriol. Seriously, I don't see the cause nor need for it. You can take that as a request for politeness and evenness from one Marine to another (1st LAR and 3/1) or you can PM me in my capacity as a staff member or any other staff member for that matter.

Anyway, my point was certainly not to advocate using illegal drugs nor tax evasion and it is more than a simple stretch for you to interpret my words as such. However, did you know that 2012 brought about forty thousand new laws on the books? Can you tell me with certainty you don't ever break laws or just that you don't commit felonies? That was the point I was trying to make.

LittleLebowski

04-28-2012, 06:47 AM

A note on this thread. We strive to keep Pistol-Forum a civil and polite forum. Sure, we might get a wee bit raucous but do remember that the firearms training and competition circles are small communities. Please strive to keep things even handed and to not say anything online that you would not say in person. The jack booted enforcer and the wild eyed sovereign citizen almost always end up to be good folks in person who might get a bit heated while discussing matters. Trust me, I know from experience gained from multiple training classes and shoots.

If you feel like someone else is out of line, report the post. Do not engage, report the post. Let the Staff do their jobs.

JAD

04-28-2012, 07:17 AM

As did Jeff Cooper, and the Gunsite Gunsmithy offered a 30-30 package for a number of years, with modifications appropriate for such a use. In his commentaries, Col. Cooper also discussed a similar lever gun in .44, which he referred to as the Brooklyn Special.

It is /hilarious/ that I would think I could correct GJM about anything relating to Cooper, but in .44 it's a Kansas City Special (vol 3 no 13), coined through correspondence with Maj. Doug Smith.

The Brooklyn Special is a .30-.30, volume 5. Being from KC and a part of Maj. Smith's Team Kansas, I would claim primacy for the KC version.

TGS

04-28-2012, 08:33 AM

Anyway, my point was certainly not to advocate using illegal drugs nor tax evasion and it is more than a simple stretch for you to interpret my words as such. However, did you know that 2012 brought about forty thousand new laws on the books? Can you tell me with certainty you don't ever break laws or just that you don't commit felonies? That was the point I was trying to make.

As has already been pointed out by two others, I believe LE teams performing needless or inefficient raids has much more to do with poor planning, execution, and/or leadership. I just can't draw a connect between that and a 1984 situation.

40,000 new laws, NDAA, and the fact the Obama administration has persecuted more security breaches than all US presidents combined, and widespread destruction of the educational system is a totally separate issue, and one that I'm not denying needs to be addressed.

LittleLebowski

04-28-2012, 08:52 AM

TGS, I'm not in fear of a 1984 type situation but rather concerned about how many laws most of us break on a near daily basis and the ease with which we can be vilified and prosecuted because of such laws. Having seen first-hand in business, the use of false accusations to damage a business rival, we can all be found guilty of something. Feel free to pm me for details on what my friend went through.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

Byron

04-28-2012, 10:16 AM

And when Iron Man decides to serve a warrant for "an ounce of pot or some tax records"

Oh, I don't know......

Don't commit fraud and don't possess drugs?
If only Mayor Cheye Calvo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheye_Calvo) had heeded that advice, his dogs might still be alive today. Oh... wait...

Chief of Police Melvin High called the Calvos "innocent victims" who were caught up in the drug trafficking ring. While High said he regretted the loss of the Calvo's dogs, he did not apologize for the actions taken by his officers.

During the interrogation, Calvo repeatedly requested to see the search warrant, but his lawyer stated no copy was provided until three days later. A County Police spokesman initially stated that a no-knock warrant had been issued for Calvo's home. However, after Calvo's lawyer challenged that statement and media published copies of the warrant, the commander of the county's narcotics enforcement division stated that no-knock warrants do not exist in the county. However, no-knock warrants were clarified in a 2005 law, sponsored by Baltimore Delegate Curt Anderson, that limits their use to suspects fleeing into a house, or if a suspect is considered armed or is attempting to destroy evidence.

Prince George's County Police later arrested two men in a drug trafficking plan involving the shipment of large parcels of marijuana to addresses of uninvolved residents. After each parcel was delivered outside the addressee's home, another individual would retrieve the drugs. Police seized six packages containing 417 pounds of marijuana

So, in other words: don't just keep your nose clean. Also make sure that no one else in the country decides to ever randomly choose your address. Should be easy, right?

As has already been pointed out by two others, I believe LE teams performing needless or inefficient raids has much more to do with poor planning, execution, and/or leadership. I just can't draw a connect between that and a 1984 situation.
As a citizen, I don't really care about the motivation nearly as much as I care about the result. If my house is raided and my animals are shot, it gives me no peace of mind to hear, "Oh, whoops; bad planning, execution, and/or leadership. Our bad." The end result to me is the same, whether they did it by accident, or out of malice. In both instances, I am left with the corpses of loved ones and an enduring fear of Law Enforcement going forward.

TO MAKE IT CLEAR: I am not anti-LEO. Hopefully the multitude of friends I have in LE would gladly corroborate that. But the idea that keeping your nose clean is the magic ticket to avoid any run-ins with the law doesn't seem to always click with reality.

ford.304

04-28-2012, 01:01 PM

It is unfortunate that the two aspects of "militarization" (gear and training versus tactics and strategy) so often get conflated.

I have no issue with officer friendly showing up to my house dressed in full body armor and carrying an AR, as long as he is still very obviously wearing a police uniform under/over that body armor, and knocks on my door politely rather than blowing it open and shooting my dog. Destruction of evidence should not be a good enough reason for anything called a "raid" - only imminent threats to someone's safety. Good or bad intelligence can fix the raids of the innocent, but they are unlikely to fix the raids for enough drugs to bring nothing but minor possession charges.

Gray222

04-28-2012, 03:41 PM

We are still wearing polyester from head to toe, with two pockets on our shirts and four on our pants. I'm in the same boat. We have asked, for years, for the same pants with cargo pockets on the sides to hold such items as tourniquets, medical gloves, paperwork, evidence collection tools, etc. You know .... cargo.

Luckily our long gun policy is much smarter.

The best thing you can do is take the brass out along with the guys who are good at what they do. Sooner or later the line guys will promote... and the attitudes at the top will retire.

In a dept of around 7k, taking the brass anywhere is pointless. They do not care about the patrol level guys, only when they get shot, if then.

David Armstrong

04-28-2012, 03:47 PM

I offered the options based on the presumed premiss that having ARs and such automatically equated with not looking friendly.
Given that presumption I would still offer option C. Isn't there some way we can adequately equip the officers better without having to go with the "evil black gun" motif? That was sort of my point.

My county PD has gone from Love Boat uniforms to more tactical looking (including everyone wearing body armor over their uniforms) over the past decade and I don't think it's raised any eyebrows.
I think that is a good example. The officers can patrol with very noticeable and highly contrasting body armor. Or they can wear body armor that blends in with and actually looks like a part of the standard uniform.

I guess I just don't see the cops as the enemy, I see them as my allies. They may be dearly and desperately needed allies some day. As such, I'd just assume every one of them be suited up like Iron Man ready to take out a small army single-handedly.
I certainly agree. But given the reality of life I'd suggest we can get more officers closer to that level by recognizing the perception issues and working with them instead of alienating with no real gain.

David Armstrong

04-28-2012, 03:55 PM

If the public does not understand that we face people who kill, rape, steal, and carry guns on a regular basis ... then perhaps they need to be educated as to how the world really is.

I am not interested in my public perception in regards to how I dress. If they think I "look mean" because I am carrying a rifle - they are probably right. I have my rifle because a suspect has taken an action that causes me to be in fear of my safety or the safety of others to the point where I believe I need a larger more effective weapon system to safely take them into custody.

I am interested in my public's perception as to how I treat people as human beings, how I maintain myself with honesty and integrity, and how I conduct myself with regards to the safety and preservation of human life. This is what is important as a maintainer of the peace.

Doc
Look, I've been in the game at various levels since the 1970s, and I recognize that perspective. I've had it myself at times. But until the magic money fairy comes along and gives us all a whole bunch of greenbacks we are still dependent on the public and the politicians for pretty much anything and everything we can get and can do. Griping about reality doesn't change reality. It really doesn't matter too much what your interest is in the public's perception. The reality is that your funding, your policies, and pretty much your entire existence as a LEO is a function of the public perception. So anytime we can help that perception move to the good side, I think we should consider it. YMMV.

Dr. No

04-28-2012, 07:19 PM

Look, I've been in the game at various levels since the 1970s, and I recognize that perspective. I've had it myself at times. But until the magic money fairy comes along and gives us all a whole bunch of greenbacks we are still dependent on the public and the politicians for pretty much anything and everything we can get and can do. Griping about reality doesn't change reality. It really doesn't matter too much what your interest is in the public's perception. The reality is that your funding, your policies, and pretty much your entire existence as a LEO is a function of the public perception. So anytime we can help that perception move to the good side, I think we should consider it. YMMV.

I've never seen money taken away from departments because of 'how their uniforms look' or 'because they are carrying big scary rifles'. Money gets taken away because they either don't like police as a whole, their community is failing and they have no money, or because of political pissing matches.

If the day comes that the commissioner's court comes to us and tells us they will not pay our salaries unless we stop carrying AR15's and tourniquets on our uniforms, then that is the day I will hand in my badge and go work for a community who supports our mission and trusts us to do our job the way it needs to be done, with a emphasis on results.

I'm sorry that you have been around long enough that you have given in to the politics game and think that is the way of the future. I am "new" enough to where I'm not jaded in that way. I still believe in our mission.

Doc

David Armstrong

04-29-2012, 06:27 PM

I've never seen money taken away from departments because of 'how their uniforms look' or 'because they are carrying big scary rifles'. Money gets taken away because they either don't like police as a whole, their community is failing and they have no money, or because of political pissing matches.
Nor have I. However, I have seen voters refuse to renew a tax, or not agree to fund a bond, and so on because of issues with their local PD. That means you don't get the new equipment, you don't get the votes to allow certain actions/activities, and so on. As a FWIW, if you haven't seen a political pissing match that revolves around how a uniform looks, or the type of equipment being used, you just haven't been around long enough. ;)

If the day comes that the commissioner's court comes to us and tells us they will not pay our salaries unless we stop carrying AR15's and tourniquets on our uniforms, then that is the day I will hand in my badge and go work for a community who supports our mission and trusts us to do our job the way it needs to be done, with a emphasis on results.
They probably wouldn't do that. It is more likely that they would either just prohibit the carrying of any "non-approved firearm" and then not approve the guns they don't like. Or they will mandate a particular training requirement, then not provide the training, like Todd mentioned. And you will look long and hard to find a community that says the police should be allowed to do their job any way the police want, with any tools they want, and the public should buy and support them without any questions.

I'm sorry that you have been around long enough that you have given in to the politics game and think that is the way of the future. I am "new" enough to where I'm not jaded in that way. I still believe in our mission.

Doc
I'll assume you didn't mean that in an insulting manner, so I'll not take it in that vein, but I'll point out that one should probably refrain from making wild assumptions about what another person thinks unless they have some base of knowledge to fall back on. I'm not sorry I've been around a long time. That gives me lots of experience, an extended perspective, and maybe also a wisdom that lots of young folks don't have. I firmly believe in the mission, and if someone thinks that the best way to do that mission is by pretending that the viewpoints of the citizenry we work for don't count or that they can be ignored, well they might want to reconsider both the mission and the way they think about it. But perhaps with some experience you will realize that it is not giving in to the politics game to understand how that game is played and learn to play it to your advantage. That is not giving in nor is it the way of the future. It is the way it is now. Like I said earlier, the entire LEO function is based in large part on public perception. We can use that perception to make things better or we can ignore it and then gripe about how nobody understands us. I happen to think the first alternative is better.

TGS

04-29-2012, 07:07 PM

We can use that perception to make things better or we can ignore it and then gripe about how nobody understands us. I happen to think the first alternative is better.

Perception is reality.

In the last couple months, I've seen the poh-leese chase multiple people in my neighborhood on foot, vehicles and with air support. They all wear external body armor, and from 50 feet appear to be more heavily outfitted for patrol than some SWAT teams around the country are for forcible entry. An hour ago just outside my house I watched what appeared to be a sting operation, and a bandit get his ass beat at the end of a foot chase. My perception is that our local police are kicking ass and taking names (especially with the pursuing officer yelling, "I'm gonna' beat your ass, mother******!), and I give them my vote....especially when Hamilton and Trenton PD are local guys that in my observation treat citizens like citizens, and criminals like the bane of life. They're awesome.

Obviously, that's not the way everyone perceives it, and I can imagine there's very few neighborhoods in the US that are filled with like minded persons as me which want to give the police the support they need for doing the job that needs to be done. My perception of support would certainly be different if I moved to another part of New Jersey where the cops are known to be arrogant pricks who think only they should have guns, and look at every passing citizen with a look of resentment.

Pleasing the community has got to be a tiring endeavor. MPD in DC used to chase in vehicles......citizens complained because of property damage, obvious collateral to a vehicular chase in the city. So now, they can only chase for murders, rapes, ect. So whenever a lesser crime happens, the citizens complain that the police don't do shit because the cops aren't chasing them. Gotta love that perception thing...

BaiHu

04-29-2012, 10:27 PM

If I can put a little bow on this whole conversation, since I started this brush fire, I will start and end with the fact that we are human.

Humans are flawed.

The laws we make are flawed. We make laws super-sized and generalized so that we can corral and then delineate who should/shouldn't have been caught in the net. If you're a fisherman, it's better to kill a dolphin or 2 than give up the ton of tuna you just banked. Harsh, but real.

Recently, the space in between the netting in our laws has shrunk to epic proportions, but the legislators/laws can't fight physics. The quicker they tighten the spaces, the slower the net moves around it's intended prey. So many of us face silly penalties over throwing the wrong light bulb, box, container out in the wrong recycling center while some serial murderer/rapist laughs as you get a summons. Unfortunately, many cops get caught in this gristmill having to penalize the good taxpayer/citizen when even they know they'd be better served asking that refuse ruffian about the neighborhood and who's doing what in order to get a leg up on local intel.

All laws will have to accept this and all citizens will have to accept this until enough citizens are educated thoroughly so they may recognize reality when it comes around the corner. Then and only then can we begin to turn this 18 wheeler of a juggernaut in the name of 'keeping everyone safe'. There is no such guarantee, no matter how hard some try to legislate 'danger' out of our 'human experience.'

I for one understand that the risk of ANYONE carrying a gun, means that someone innocent, somewhere along the way will (not may/if) get killed. That goes for driving a car, riding a bike, baking a cake, peeing on a fence and waking up in the morning.

Life's a mystery and some of us are just better detectives.

BWT

04-29-2012, 10:46 PM

It boils down to this, there's two ends of the spectrums.

I think Officer's should have AR-15's. "To Serve and Protect" is the creed of L.E., I think you just have to keep in mind that it is a position of service, and people have to keep in mind they're there to protect them.

I like L.E. and I don't mind them having AR's, I own one, and I agree they're more effective for doing anything except just carrying it. What gets back to is, things that have happened in the past that just look bad.

I mean... Let's be honest, Waco was a search warrant conducted looking for illegal MG's. That went god awful. I'm not going to point at L.E. and say they were all in the wrong, or at the Citizens and say they were all in the right, but, as a citizen, that's scary, and not because I plan on breaking the law.

That was something that happened on suspicion, I look at how easy could someone say I illegally modified my AR-15 into a MG without proof and I end up in the same situation, at gun point, being raided by the ATF or SLED and treated like a "Criminal".

The thing is, I don't like the "us" and "them" mentality, I can see how it's easy to get that way when you work in L.E. and every day you deal with basically people breaking the law, you get jaded.

But anyway, I think they should have lighter trigger pulls than 12 lbs and as far as the shoot, they were scared for their lives, they hit him about 15% of the time, I mean it is what it is.

Last note on L.E.'s with AR-15's, I really think they should be issued to more officers, honestly, the reason being, SWAT Team's are so far away, and Officer's response time is usually 5-10 minutes, by the time they get there, if it's a serious shooting or organized criminal act, they wait for backup, and then they secure the area around whatever, and then SWAT arrives, and they enter, you're looking at 30-45 minutes maybe an hour.

That's one of the reasons I think people should be able to concealed carry on campus, Most officer's aren't going to go into that school, and honestly, maybe they shouldn't. But by the time a 2nd or 3rd officer gets on the scene, if they had AR-15's and if they really wanted to enter, they could.

Just the way I see it.

ToddG

04-29-2012, 11:11 PM

Given that presumption I would still offer option C. Isn't there some way we can adequately equip the officers better without having to go with the "evil black gun" motif? That was sort of my point.

So long as the equipment is as effective (in every sense) as the EBR, that's fine with me. But there is so much going for the AR platform these days that cannot be matched in toto by other options that it's hard to imagine a better choice.

I think that is a good example. The officers can patrol with very noticeable and highly contrasting body armor. Or they can wear body armor that blends in with and actually looks like a part of the standard uniform.

So case in point, the county PD I was talking about actually has khaki uniforms over which they wear black vests. It's extremely obvious even from a distance. I just don't think anyone sees a cop wearing body armor as out of place. Now if they all wore riot helmets and walked around with AR15s slung, that would much more likely generate unease among the general populace.

David Armstrong

04-30-2012, 11:05 AM

So long as the equipment is as effective (in every sense) as the EBR, that's fine with me. But there is so much going for the AR platform these days that cannot be matched in toto by other options that it's hard to imagine a better choice.
That gets us back to the eternal argument about whether one needs the "better" to accomplish the task in an effective manner, but without belaboring the point we do actually agree. My point is simply that one must consider the perspective of those who are paying the salaries and buying the equipment if one wants to have the salaries paid and the equipment purchased. As just a "for instance", would the patrolman be significantly reduced if he was given a semi-auto HK subgun instead of the EBR, and would that impact the perception in a different manner? By looking at the issue perhaps we can equip the officer to the max while not offending the public.

So case in point, the county PD I was talking about actually has khaki uniforms over which they wear black vests. It's extremely obvious even from a distance. I just don't think anyone sees a cop wearing body armor as out of place. Now if they all wore riot helmets and walked around with AR15s slung, that would much more likely generate unease among the general populace.
External body armor has become far more accepted than it was in the past, and I like that as IMO the external provides a significant improvement in protection over most concealed armor in actual use. And one of the ways more officers are getting to wear that external stuff now is because someone finally decided to make a carrier that looks like part of the uniform. That is all I'm suggesting. Not everyplace will approve/authorize the contrasting armor, so if we can provide the same thing (level "X" full-coverage for example) in uniform-compatible form then we provide the tools without coming into conflict with the perception.

SouthNarc

04-30-2012, 12:58 PM

Gray222

04-30-2012, 01:26 PM

Chuck Haggard

04-30-2012, 01:26 PM

NickA

04-30-2012, 02:39 PM

On appearance and uniforms:

Cops would look better in whatever uniform they wore, if as a profession they were more fit. If I take a turd and drop it in a foil cup and cover it with icing, that doesn't make what I have a cupcake. It's still a piece of shit with icing.

Amen to that. I have all the respect in the world for those that wear a badge, I just wish it wasn't attached to about 100 extra pounds so often. It's almost funny until you think that it may be that guy who shows up to "save" your wife or kids.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

Tamara

04-30-2012, 05:11 PM

On appearance and uniforms:

Cops would look better in whatever uniform they wore, if as a profession they were more fit. If I take a turd and drop it in a foil cup and cover it with icing, that doesn't make what I have a cupcake. It's still a piece of shit with icing.
I called this out to Shootin' Buddy the last time we visited Chicago. Considering we had been in Boone Co., IN at Sheriff Ken's range just weeks earlier, the difference was night and day. No wonder the CPD is demoralized! Do you have any idea on the backorder time of pre-rumpled XXXL vests with the optional mustard stains?!? :eek: