Accuracy Diagnosis/Target Selection

[spence]

Let's see if I can convey this without being clear as mud. I started getting pretty serious about pistol shooting last spring when I bought my M9. It's got just at 7000 rounds through it now. Bought a 92 Compact the month after that, and it's got a couple thousand through it, but it fits the role of backup right now.

I've gotten to where I am extremely comfortable with the pistol, and shoot it pretty well. The Lucky Gunner "Start Shooting Better" series got me started on exercises and drills, and is the major influence to utilizing a whole lot of print off B8's and ordering (paper) IDPA targets. I've also since snagged a pile of Q targets, as well.

So, with my M9, accuracy on any target is rock solid to 10 yards. 15 is usually good. That's where I feel like it gets weird. At 15 and 25 yards (especially 25), I can start having issues with keeping groups centered when using the B8's printed on white paper. The freestyle shooting thread here has been a source of frustration. I do one or both of two things. Groups start running low, or just plain go to hell (usually while being low).

If I switch to shooting the IDPA targets, or even Q targets, I don't have the problem nearly as much. 25 yards it's much easier to keep rounds centered in the -0 zone than it is to keep them on the flipping paper using B8's. I do feel like I can't focus well on the B8s at extended range. Move out to 35 and 50 yards, it's not too terribly hard to keep in the -0 and -1 zones on the target, although the gun either starts to shoot low at 50+, or I'm doing something wrong.

I honestly haven't really shot many of my other guns that far (besides the 92 compact, and it's been on the back burner for a while, but I felt like I had less of an issue with excessive drop at 50 yards with it).

What the tar am I doing wrong to 1) shoot low at times. It's not all the time, but enough for me to question it, and 2) shoot far better on one kind of target vs another?

[Yung]

Depending on how dark those B8s are, it might be harder to see the edges of your front sight. You may also want to consider where the edges of the ring/paper are in relation to the rear sight.

[spence]

I print them in draft mode to save ink, they're still pretty dark, but not black as night black.

If I am understanding your last statement correctly, I've been wondering if that's not part of why I have better luck with a larger target. I can still see, thus hold on, the round -0 zone at 25 still.

[lwt16]

Rough guess is you are having a front sight focus issue. You are letting your vision focus on the target instead of a sharp, hard front sight focus. The larger targets you are allowing to stay fuzzy and when it comes to the B8 at 25 you are focusing too much on it and not the front sight.

Or, you have an ever so slight pre-ignition shot anticipation issue and you are pushing your shots low.

Have you tried loading 3-4 snap caps at random in a magazine and seeing what your front sight does when the hammer falls on them?

Regards.

[miller_man]

I don't see how/why guys would print off the B-8s. 100 pks at brownells are 9.99 - that's $0.10/ea. I bought 4 probably over a year ago and haven't made it past the 2nd one yet.

Yep, I shoot better groups at distance (15+yds) with a bigger target area. I have figured there is some mental connection with target size, room for error and probably just us over aiming and focusing less on the trigger press on smaller targets.

At 25 + 50yds, everything is magnified. Every little movement of the gun has greater impact on where hit's go.

Pretty usual stuff - what was the question?:D

[BN]

If I switch to shooting the IDPA targets, or even Q targets, I don't have the problem nearly as much. 25 yards it's much easier to keep rounds centered in the -0 zone than it is to keep them on the flipping paper using B8's. I do feel like I can't focus well on the B8s at extended range.

I have the same problem. It's a vision thing with me. It's easier to center my sights with the bigger target. I'm old enough that I can't focus back and forth from the sights to the target any more. I printed some of the all white B-8's and that helped a little.

[CraigS]

A couple of thoughts;
- There is no question in my mind that type of target affects how well you shoot it. Example; take a 3 inch dot and sight at it at different distances. The size of the dot in relation to the width of the front sight varies and some variations make it easier to center left to right than others.
- This will also affect shooting low or high.
https://live.staticflickr.com/1930/43193920920_b9f7f5b251.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/28NU8Qu)SIGHT Images (https://flic.kr/p/28NU8Qu) by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickr
My pistols are set for picture 2. If you are using picture 1, then distance and/or size of target circle will affect POI height.
- When shooting at longer distance or at smaller targets I only shoot maybe 3-4 shots in a string. After that last shot, it is comfortable for me to bring the pistol back to my chest, aimed up at about 45 degrees and relax my arms. I breath a few cycles to get back to normal because I was usually holding my breath while shooting.
- You don't mention if any of your shots are in double action mode. If they are, and if they happen to be the shots that hit low, welcome to the club. What helps me w/ that is increasing the grip strength of my support hand.
- I agree w/ lwt16. No matter how good your eyes are, focus on the front sight only, and let the target be fuzzy. If you wear glasses, what has really helped me was getting a pair where my dominant eye lens (the entire lens) is set to focus at front sight distance.

[spence]

Rough guess is you are having a front sight focus issue. You are letting your vision focus on the target instead of a sharp, hard front sight focus. The larger targets you are allowing to stay fuzzy and when it comes to the B8 at 25 you are focusing too much on it and not the front sight.

Or, you have an ever so slight pre-ignition shot anticipation issue and you are pushing your shots low.

Have you tried loading 3-4 snap caps at random in a magazine and seeing what your front sight does when the hammer falls on them?

Regards.

I think you might be right to an extent on both counts. My snap cap population has dwindled really hard, so no, that's one thing I haven't done. However, shooting DA/SA I've spent a lot of time working the DA that I almost feel I can run it better than the SA, and I've shortened to SA up a bit more even with the TJIB from LTT.

Paul Harrel has a video out there on types of targets, and I believe he talked about the contrast of colors of targets, especially black on white vs the black on tan/off white of most NRA type targets, which is part of what sparked me thinking to pose the question versus just being frustrated.


I don't see how/why guys would print off the B-8s. 100 pks at brownells are 9.99 - that's $0.10/ea. I bought 4 probably over a year ago and haven't made it past the 2nd one yet.

Yep, I shoot better groups at distance (15+yds) with a bigger target area. I have figured there is some mental connection with target size, room for error and probably just us over aiming and focusing less on the trigger press on smaller targets.

At 25 + 50yds, everything is magnified. Every little movement of the gun has greater impact on where hit's go.

Pretty usual stuff - what was the question?:D


Problem when buying things like that is not always so much the targets but the cost of shipping. I did find that pistoleer.com isn't bad, bought 100 IPDA and 100 Q targets for $73 or something like that, puts them under .40/each. Buying them something I may consider, but I've used a bunch of them. For exercises out to ten yards, they're great. However, getting the full 10.5x10.5 could be helpful, too.

What was the question? The question really was "am I some special kind of stoopid, or do I have any kind of clue how to shoot a pistol?" I don't get to shoot with other folks very often, and the few times I typically do, I'm a far better shooter. I really need somebody to shoot with from time to time that's closer to my level. Plus the direction I'm going with pistol shooting means I need to get my crap sorted out.

[BehindBlueI's]

I have the same problem. It's a vision thing with me. It's easier to center my sights with the bigger target.

This for me as well, although it's a color/contrast issue vs a focus issue. Black sights vs a black background, especially at an indoor range, disappear for me. I have to have a colored insert or the front sight is literally invisible to my perception. I can see the rear sights, I can see the target, I can even see most of the barrel, but I can't find the front sight. So, especially on indoor ranges, I shoot light gray b-8s or other targets.

[spence]

A couple of thoughts;
- There is no question in my mind that type of target affects how well you shoot it. Example; take a 3 inch dot and sight at it at different distances. The size of the dot in relation to the width of the front sight varies and some variations make it easier to center left to right than others.
- This will also affect shooting low or high.
https://live.staticflickr.com/1930/43193920920_b9f7f5b251.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/28NU8Qu)SIGHT Images (https://flic.kr/p/28NU8Qu) by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickr
My pistols are set for picture 2. If you are using picture 1, then distance and/or size of target circle will affect POI height.
- When shooting at longer distance or at smaller targets I only shoot maybe 3-4 shots in a string. After that last shot, it is comfortable for me to bring the pistol back to my chest, aimed up at about 45 degrees and relax my arms. I breath a few cycles to get back to normal because I was usually holding my breath while shooting.
- You don't mention if any of your shots are in double action mode. If they are, and if they happen to be the shots that hit low, welcome to the club. What helps me w/ that is increasing the grip strength of my support hand.
- I agree w/ lwt16. No matter how good your eyes are, focus on the front sight only, and let the target be fuzzy. If you wear glasses, what has really helped me was getting a pair where my dominant eye lens (the entire lens) is set to focus at front sight distance.

Here's where I get to start sounding very rambling. It seems that the vast majority of my qualms are with the M9. Not with the compact version, or any other full size pistol I've picked up. I'll have to try this exercise with the PX4 compact I picked up not too long ago, although the few hundred rounds I have through it so far, it doesn't seem to have quite the same quirks, either. It's too early to tell.

I do believe that the pistol is zeroed for the second sight picture, but I could see where I have issues with the smaller targets and inadvertently focusing more on the 6 oclock.

When I bought the M9, it was a range toy. I hadn't heard of Ernest Langdon yet, or what all could be done to a 92 series to make them more shootable. It didn't take long to put grips on it, a G kit, and 14# hammer spring. That's where I made up my mind I was going to get competent with DA/SA, otherwise I probably wouldn't have spent the time and money to shoot all the thousands of rounds I have this year. :eek: In doing so, I realized a month or two ago that I've spent probably too much time running the DA trigger. I feel good rolling through that 6.5 lb long pull, but the 3.5 SA screws with me sometimes.

[spence]

This for me as well, although it's a color/contrast issue vs a focus issue. Black sights vs a black background, especially at an indoor range, disappear for me. I have to have a colored insert or the front sight is literally invisible to my perception. I can see the rear sights, I can see the target, I can even see most of the barrel, but I can't find the front sight. So, especially on indoor ranges, I shoot light gray b-8s or other targets.

I shoot exclusively outdoors, and one thing that probably doesn't help sometimes is the wind. Even at 3 yards shooting dot torture, wind can play hell.

[lwt16]

However, shooting DA/SA I've spent a lot of time working the DA that I almost feel I can run it better than the SA, and I've shortened to SA up a bit more even with the TJIB from LTT.

What was the question? The question really was "am I some special kind of stoopid, or do I have any kind of clue how to shoot a pistol?" I don't get to shoot with other folks very often, and the few times I typically do, I'm a far better shooter. I really need somebody to shoot with from time to time that's closer to my level. Plus the direction I'm going with pistol shooting means I need to get my crap sorted out.

I am the same way with revolvers....I can dial shots in much much better with DA than with the lighter, hair trigger SA.

I get my B8 repair centers bulk on the bay. You might want to check there.

Shooting B8s at 25 and 50 I have learned that trigger control is most of what the game is all about. Let the sights wobble (within reason), equal light/height, and constant trigger press allowing the gun to fire when it's ready...not when I am ready. HARD front sight focus and let all else fuzz...combining all the above with that front sight laser sharp beneath the bull. At almost 50 years old, I have to don readers to achieve this sight focus.

Then out of nowhere......BOOM/RECOIL.

Or....if I am loaded up with snap caps or dry firing.......CLICK....out of nowhere.....and that front sight had better be steady big time.

This is something you can work on alone. Start out with the basics and then work on holding 10 shots in the scoring rings. Then, 10 shots in the 8 ring.....then 10 in the black. Once you are where you can all black a B8, then you will try to 9 ring all 10. THAT is where you start working on grip pressure, different ammo, better sights, and any micro mistake will cost you a 8 ring hit.

If you and I were going to the range today to work on it, I'd load up your mags with dummy rounds and you and I would more than likely figure out it's a trigger control issue. If you were throwing shots high, we'd likely find out it's a sight/vision issue. If you were left or right.....or "all over the place" we'd likely go back to your trigger press.

One of the biggest eye openers for me was shooting someone else's pistol with a red dot on it. I could see that dot dip down on my press.....and all of the sudden I figured out I was hosing up my press. My groups started tightening up. Then, I got comfortable with sight wobble....and quickly found out that a little off wobble when the shot breaks is TONS more accurate than rushing the press to ambush the bull when the sights are perfectly aligned on it. Ambushing gets me a low left 8 or 7 ring hit whereas allowing wobble at the break keeps me in the 9 and 10 ring.

One other thing is single hand shooting allowed me to see more trigger errors than a 2 hand hold. Strong hand only shooting at 25 and 50 requires immense trigger press and front sight focus....so much so that after a session, I'm pretty wiped out.

You can improve but it won't be overnight. Dry fire is cheap and helps me tons.

Regards.

[lwt16]

I shoot exclusively outdoors, and one thing that probably doesn't help sometimes is the wind. Even at 3 yards shooting dot torture, wind can play hell.

I shoot exclusively outdoors as well. At 3, 5, 7 yards, the wind has no impact on my 9mm shooting whatsoever. Occasionally at the 50 with .45 auto I will see some wind issues in strong winds but not enough to cause me to pack up and go home.

I'll gladly take a bit of wind rather than shoot with diminished light. But then again, too much sun can be bad as well....depending on where it glares off my sights.

[thward89]

Let the sights wobble (within reason), equal light/height, and constant trigger press allowing the gun to fire when it's ready...not when I am ready. HARD front sight focus and let all else fuzz...combining all the above with that front sight laser sharp beneath the bull.


This is probably the best advice I've heard on this subject. Trying to put this into practice has improved my scores on B8s and made me much better at "shot-calling".

[psalms144.1]

Shooting low at 25 yards, in my experience, is frequently tied to a trigger snatch. At 25 yards, we get so focused on our sight picture, we can unconsciously yank the trigger when the sights look perfect, trying to make the gun go off RIGHT NOW. Usually this results in a nose dive of the front sight, and a resulting low shot.

The best way to diagnose if this is your issue is ball and dummy, preferably with someone else loading your mags so you don't know when you're going to get a click instead of a bang, and watching your front sight all the way through every trigger press. If you hit a dummy and your front sight dives like a U-Boat trying to avoid a Yankee destroyer, you know what's going on.

If you're driving the sight down unintentionally, the way to get over that is to make a conscious decision to press the trigger all the way through, no stops, no staging, once you have an acceptable - NOT PERFECT - sight picture. Double action revolvers are GREAT for this training - get your sights generally on target and then press that long, heavy trigger all the way to the rear smoothly with no stops.

[JohnO]

So, with my M9, accuracy on any target is rock solid to 10 yards. 15 is usually good. That's where I feel like it gets weird. At 15 and 25 yards (especially 25), I can start having issues with keeping groups centered when using the B8's printed on white paper. The freestyle shooting thread here has been a source of frustration. I do one or both of two things. Groups start running low, or just plain go to hell (usually while being low).

If I switch to shooting the IDPA targets, or even Q targets, I don't have the problem nearly as much. 25 yards it's much easier to keep rounds centered in the -0 zone than it is to keep them on the flipping paper using B8's. I do feel like I can't focus well on the B8s at extended range. Move out to 35 and 50 yards, it's not too terribly hard to keep in the -0 and -1 zones on the target, although the gun either starts to shoot low at 50+, or I'm doing something wrong.


First of all you should define what you mean by "rock solid". 10 Yards - everything easily in the X-ring of a B8? One ragged hole?

Ten yards and beyond is where little problems with technique that can't be seen in closer manifest themselves.

Regarding the perceived differences you are experiencing with targets. Of course I'm not inside your head but the following may apply.

The B8 has defined scoring rings. It doesn't matter if you can't see the rings at distance however psychologically the shooter is attempting to register a maximal score. The emphasis on making a perfect shot enables those little peccadillos in your technique to influence the outcome. Most notably focal shift between the sights and the target. Too much emphasis on refining the sight picture at the expense of sacrificing sight alignment. Think of it this way: If your sight picture moves up 1" and left 1" (from perfectly centered) you can still score a 10. However if your front sight goes high, low, left or right by only a few thousandths of an inch you will impact outside of the Black. Place your front sight where it needs to be on the target for your pistol. Then look and work only at perfecting sight alignment. Virtually everyone I have do this improves their score.

As I explained above the IDPA, Q and other targets with generous scoring zones are just that generous. Less pressure on the shooter to do well. It shows vs. a B8. You can see the same thing with someone ringing reduced size steel at 50 yards and struggling on a B8 at 25.

[spence]

Thanks a bunch guys. I’m starting to be able to see that I don’t have any special issues, and I can do a lot of self diagnosis, but I’ve got to develop the confidence to say “yes, this is the issue.”

And get some B8s that are 10.5x10.5 on the tan background.


This was last week. Ten yards. Squares are 1.75”, pulled the first shot high. Ran three shots, one DA, two SA, decock, repeat.

45243

[spence]

This was also last week, 25 yards. Got home and superimposed impacts on a B8 for a score.

45244
45245

[lwt16]

Right handed?

[spence]

Yes I am

[lwt16]

Your 10 yard 1.75 inch square group led me to deduce that.

See those low/left shots? Trigger press.

Snap caps randomly loaded. Also, skip the B8s for now. Go to the dollar store and buy the smallest post it sticky notes they have. Buy a black marker. Put you a dot in the center of that little note OR....a staple in the middle. Shoot at the 3/5 until you can make that dot/staple go away. Put a bunch of these sticky notes up so if you eliminate the dot/staple, move to the next one while you are in the groove. Do this with 2-3 snap caps in your mags......random....like load them the night before or load up several mags and mix them up to where you can't remember which one has the dud at shot 3 or five or whatever.

No speed in this.....matter of fact....take a lot of time focusing on the press. Speed comes later.

PM me your address. I'll send you 10 B8 repair centers. For later......when you get your press smoothed out.

Regards.

[Gio]

See those low/left shots? Trigger press.

Snap caps randomly loaded.


Respectfully disagree with these suggestions.

In my opinion, that group on a 1.75" square at 10 yards is pretty good and does not lead me to believe you have a major issue with your fundamentals. There would be a lot more fliers outside the group if there were inconsistencies in your technique. You may actually have an issue with the POI/POA of your sights or how you're observing them on target.

Ball and dummy drills are a pet peeve of mine. They are absolutely useless for anyone except shooters who have a major flinch and don't know they are flinching. For anyone else it is detrimental to progress, because it will show a subconscious post-ignition push. You can quickly separate post ignition push from a flinch if you are shooting a tight group at 10 yards on a ball and dummy drill but perceive a major dip/flinch on the dummy rounds. If you had a real flinch, you would see your hits all over the place on the target. If an instructor throws an entire class or group on a ball and dummy drill they are doing a major disservice to any shooters who don't fit this category.

There are two types of trigger press techniques: slowly/steadily increasing pressure until the shot breaks (i.e. for a bullseye target or shooting one of those 1.75" squares) or slapping/jerking the trigger (useful for action pistol and defensive shooting drills)

You can't focus on the slow/steady trigger press and ever see a significant increase in your speed. They are two completely different skill sets. If you want to shoot slowly and accurately, focus on mastering the first one and forget about time as suggested. If you want to shoot quickly but still accurately enough (i.e. ~90% -0/A zone hits) on action pistol targets like IDPA, USPSA, etc you have to learn to press/jerk/slap the trigger as fast as you can without disturbing the sights or while mitigating the effect of your imperfect trigger press with your offhand grip and locked wrists. My favorite drill to practice this is to aim for a small target like a 2" circle at 5-7 yards, set a shot timer on a random delay, and press the trigger as fast as possible when the timer goes off. You should be in the .15-.20 range, which is the limit of human reaction time. If the reaction time is slower than that then you are pressing the trigger too slow.

On the distance shooting on the B8, my guess is you are not accepting the natural wobble of the sights as you perceive them moving on the target and are trying to make the shot happen NOW when the sights cross the center of the B8. On the more open targets with less defined scoring areas you are able to ignore the wobble and execute the same fundamentals you are using at the 10 yard target. The solution here for bullseye style shooting is to mentally separate the movement of your sights on the target from your trigger press and work the trigger with steadily increasing pressure without trying to pause or speed up your trigger press based on what the sights are doing.

[GJM]

The Rogers School does ball and dummy drills differently — they alternate ball and dummy so you know which is the dummy and which is the live round. Do a perfect press dry and follow it with a live round.

[Clusterfrack]

Gio —spot on. I recommend working on other shooting skills. Your accuracy is just fine, and will improve as you develop your other skills.

[okie john]

First of all, welcome to PF. If you keep asking smart questions, then you'll improve very quickly.

The rule of thumb is that an accurate pistol with accurate ammo in the hands of an accurate shooter should group into 1” for every 10 yards of distance, so I’d like to see something more like 1” at 10 yards. The 92 is an accurate design and an example with only 7k rounds on it shouldn’t have mechanical problems so I’ll focus on other issues.

You’re mixing technique by combining DA and SA shots. I know you’ll have to shoot DA and SA on da streetz, but for now pick one and focus on it until you get a benchmark and you can begin to identify where other things becomes an issue.
Ammo selection. Have you tested loads? Did you use the load that this pistol shoots best or whatever you had on hand that day? It makes a difference, and it really shows up as distance increases. (For details on how to shoot for pure accuracy, see post 37 here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?12244-Freestyle-shooting-at-25-yds-revisited/page4)
You’re zeroed for elevation. The group superimposed on the B8 is has five hits above the horizontal centerline and five below. IF you can repeat that on demand, then you’re zeroed for elevation at that distance. Bullet drop increases with distance, and if you don’t know your zero then you won’t know how much drop to expect. Zero at 25 yards, then check POI at shorter and longer ranges. A hot 124-grain 9mm load can be 3-5 inches low at 50 from a 25-yard zero and a 147 will drop about twice that. Inside of 25 yards, POI will be a bit high but not as much higher as you’d think.
You're not zeroed for windage. That target has seven hits right of the vertical center line and three to the left. This will become more evident at longer range and less evident at closer range. Consider drifting your rear sight AFTER you complete your ammo tests, as different loads can have different points of impact.


You're on the edge of one of the biggest rabbit holes in the world. You can't see the bottom because there isn't one.

You might as well jump in with the rest of us.


Okie John

[Caballoflaco]

https://live.staticflickr.com/1930/43193920920_b9f7f5b251.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/28NU8Qu)SIGHT Images (https://flic.kr/p/28NU8Qu) by craig stuard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/152454123@N04/), on Flickr
.

There is a reason that sight picture #1 is often the preferred sight picture for folks who are bulls-eye/ NRA high-power shooters. It’s easier for most folks to center their front sight on the bottom rounded edge of the target rather than holding in the middle. The next time you shoot b8’s you might want to try shooting a group or two with that hold (not worrying about scoring rings) just to see if it makes a difference in group size.

Note: I’m not advocating changing sites to achieve a 6:00 hold (even if your groups are better than with a center hold) it’s more of an experiment just to see how your mind works when interpreting the relationship of sites to target.

Comments about ammo here are spot on too. I once showed up at a small local class with some aluminum blazer 115 gr and couldn’t shoot better than 6-8” at twenty yards. I was pretty frustrated with myself at the end of the day because I had been shooting considerably better than that, but I try not to blame equipment first so I just assumed I’d had a bad day shooting.

The next time I was at the range I had a couple boxes of the blazer and was shooting up some old carry ammo. I was able to consistently shoot 3” ish groups with the gold dots and still could not do better than 8” with the blazer because my glock hated that lot of that ammo.

[Gio]

The rule of thumb is that an accurate pistol with accurate ammo in the hands of an accurate shooter should group into 1” for every 10 yards of distance, so I’d like to see something more like 1” at 10 yards. The 92 is an accurate design and an example with only 7k rounds on it shouldn’t have mechanical problems so I’ll focus on other issues.
[/LIST]



Holding a 1” at 10 yards standing unsupported is beyond a rule of thumb... Maybe off a sandbag rest. If there was a technique issue with the shooting we’d see a lot of fliers, not just the 1 high flyer out of the whole group.

[Clusterfrack]

I recommend against investing in diminishing returns in accuracy at the cost of developing other critical shooting skills.

Unless you are a bullseye shooter. Otherwise, work on other things like recoil management, target transitions, non-threat partial targets, draws, reloads, etc.

[spence]

I recommend against investing in diminishing returns in accuracy at the cost of developing other critical shooting skills.

Unless you are a bullseye shooter. Otherwise, work on other things like recoil management, target transitions, non-threat partial targets, draws, reloads, etc.

Before I get the chance to go to the range for another extended trip (200-300 rounds is typical when I have more time/ammo/ambition, and things are rolling well, not getting fatigued, etc), I'll have to stop and take some notes out of this thread with me. There's some good info here.

As I've progressed through the last year or so of going from essentially just blasting ammo with no real plan, to actually learning to run a pistol and be accurate, I've taken a few notes about it. One being there's a huge difference between shooting precise, and practical/gaming marksmanship. It was also a huge revelation to learn that learning to shoot precise starts at 3-7 yards, not 10-25.

Among various other things, one takeaway I'm taking is if/when shooting for groups, run the trigger in either DA or SA. There's other places to run them simultaneously.

To the last comment specifically, I'm with you. I shot a bunch of untimed drills to get some precision down until I got a shot timer. It was good for me at that point, and getting to start running on a timer came about the right time, I think. The other skills you speak of are in what I'm working on a lot. It's progressive, especially when I have a bare facility so I've got to come up with the stuff to do these things myself.

As for ammo. This gun has been largely not picky, as far as I can tell. It's certainly accurate enough in a practical sense. I do have several loads that I tend to prefer, and buy by the case. That depends on what supplier I'm buying from, what they have in stock, and price. My M9 has primarily eaten
UMC 115 gr FMJ. While many don't like it, I've gotten along very well with it.
Fiocchi 115 gr FMJ
S&B 115 or 124 gr FMJ
Geco 115 or 124 gr FMJ - The case of 115 I'm about to finish out has been the first case of it that I've had, but it's been good so far.

I've also run some
Aguila 115 gr
Magtech 115 and 124
Winchester NATO 124
Federal Champion 115
10 Ring 115 (that stuff was NASTY, but it was surprisingly accurate)

They've all run well, and at least the four loads I prefer to buy at the top don't seem to have any serious accuracy issues.

[spence]

Here's a couple other reference targets from the last few weeks.

11/24 Bill Drill, two runs. 3.22 and 3.18 seconds
45264

11/13 Bill Wilson 5x5. 24.82
45265

11/20 Dot Torture @ 3 yds
45270

11/21 Slow fire @ 70 yards, using Geco 115 gr. Point of aim was right at the neck line.
45267

11/8 60 yard slow fire. Black pasties are from my PX4 compact, if I remember right, it was the first trip it made out. Dropped a couple rounds with it, but I'm still impressed what that little 3.3" barrel does. Circled rounds are out of the M9. Believe it was Geco 115, as well. Point of aim also at the neck line.
45269

I have no idea why my blank dot torture sheet attached, and I can't figure out how to make it go away.

[lwt16]

To the last comment specifically, I'm with you. I shot a bunch of untimed drills to get some precision down until I got a shot timer. It was good for me at that point, and getting to start running on a timer came about the right time, I think..

I put off purchasing a shot timer for a long, long time.

I do think it is a valuable asset to running drills from concealment as well as, in my case, duty rigs just to get a measurable result for improvement.

You are going to fit in well here and yes.....like discussed in PM....this place is full of great guys/gals and a wealth of information.

I carried a 92FS INOX for several years as an issued duty pistol and they ate everything I ever put in the magazine without issues. I did fracture a firing pin on the second copy the department issued me and didn't know it until the next shooting session. Basically I carried around a paper weight on duty for a week or so. The only other issues we had as an agency were extractor based and that was more from cops loading a round directly in the chamber instead of stripping from the magazine during inspections.

Welcome aboard.

[miller_man]

Gio —spot on. I recommend working on other shooting skills. Your accuracy is just fine, and will improve as you develop your other skills.


This is SO true, I find this to be exactly the case for me. The more I improve on all aspects of shooting, the more the accuracy just rises. But going down the super accuracy rabbit hole is probably not the best use of time and efforts. Keep it all on the paper on a b-8@25, then all black @25 then stop worrying about it but continue trying to improve it.

I think your accuracy is fine - not amazing or PF high level, but really solid and your on the right track to continue improving it. As long as your continue tracking and working on it, it will just get better. I think being super accurate is something that builds over time - not something you fix in a couple range trips with a few tweaks.

I am not super high level of skill and far from having mastered much of anything, so take this all for what its worth.

[okie john]

Here's a couple other reference targets from the last few weeks.


11/24 Bill Drill, two runs. 3.22 and 3.18 seconds


11/13 Bill Wilson 5x5. 24.82


11/20 Dot Torture @ 3 yds


11/21 Slow fire @ 70 yards, using Geco 115 gr. Point of aim was right at the neck line.


11/8 60 yard slow fire. Black pasties are from my PX4 compact, if I remember right, it was the first trip it made out. Dropped a couple rounds with it, but I'm still impressed what that little 3.3" barrel does. Circled rounds are out of the M9. Believe it was Geco 115, as well. Point of aim also at the neck line.

As clusterfrack pointed out, you're shooting pretty well so it makes sense to focus on gun handling and technique, which is what's really driving most of the variations in results on drills like these.

At the same time, the ability to consistently shoot groups that are centered on the target is the most fundamental skill of all, so it also makes sense to find loads that your pistols shoot well and get your zero squared away. Then it will be easier to identify your problems and assess their magnitude, which are the first steps to solving them. For instance, your 25-yard slow-fire targets show a bias to the right but your speed-drill targets show a bias to the left. POI can easily shift that much due to changing ammo. It can also shift that much because you're pushing shots left like most right-handed shooters do when they hit the gas. Is the problem your ammo or trying to shoot too fast? You won't know until you isolate the variables.

Adding photographs to your training journal is an excellent idea, but you should also start taking better notes (what ammo you're using, etc.).


Okie John

[spence]

As clusterfrack pointed out, you're shooting pretty well so it makes sense to focus on gun handling and technique, which is what's really driving most of the variations in results on drills like these.

At the same time, the ability to consistently shoot groups that are centered on the target is the most fundamental skill of all, so it also makes sense to find loads that your pistols shoot well and get your zero squared away. Then it will be easier to identify your problems and assess their magnitude, which are the first steps to solving them. For instance, your 25-yard slow-fire targets show a bias to the right but your speed-drill targets show a bias to the left. POI can easily shift that much due to changing ammo. It can also shift that much because you're pushing shots left like most right-handed shooters do when they hit the gas. Is the problem your ammo or trying to shoot too fast? You won't know until you isolate the variables.

Adding photographs to your training journal is an excellent idea, but you should also start taking better notes (what ammo you're using, etc.).


Okie John

The go fast button pushes rounds to the left. All the above were shot with Geco 115, if any were different it was the last one and that would have been S&B 115. I do record the number of what brand ammo was fired in each range trip.

[lwt16]

The go fast button pushes rounds to the left. All the above were shot with Geco 115, if any were different it was the last one and that would have been S&B 115. I do record the number of what brand ammo was fired in each range trip.

Happens to me too. Quicker I go the more my low/left shows up.

But still, I tend to work on speed and accuracy on just about ever trip to the range. I typically go weekly and shoot 50 rounds slow bullseye at the 25 or 50 and then the other 150-200 I work on a shot timer and do many drills that focus on speed more than accuracy. One of my favorites is the Supertest (Dobbs/Bolke) from concealment or duty rig. I strive for perfection on that one and haven't seen it yet.

I'm probably the outlier here but I have found that a focus on bullseye has cleaned up my trigger press on speed drills. Others differ. I will say that earlier in the year when I was involved in an OIS against an armed assailant I found that smooth mechanics and calmness allowed me to prevail over the ability to deliver 2 inch groups at 25. Lots of dry training involved in that as I was engaging from my driver's side while seated. Lots of dry practice in parking lots allowed me to plan for that.....and that worked well for me.

One of my partners at work (who is a skilled pistoleer) was also involved in an OIS this year (been a rough year for my squad) and he now focuses some of his training ammo on bullseye style shooting. We try to max out our duty pistol's abilities just in case we have to make precision shots under stress. Like a call I ran yesterday; domestic where a guy was holding a gun to his girlfriend's head while she held their baby.

Even though I routinely run first shot from the retention holster drills on a timer, I felt more confident driving to that call knowing that if needed, I could deliver tight shots in a confined apartment on such a cretin. Thus, my focus on bullseye style shooting is always going to be a part of my training. You may not need such as a hostage situation may be a statistical improbability for you.

I would also get involved in USPSA or IDPA if that's offered up in your neck of the woods. I've dabbled in it and found that smooth mechanics and knowing how to run the equipment afforded me more brain power to focus on the task at hand to complete the stages.

[Clusterfrack]

The go fast button pushes rounds to the left. All the above were shot with Geco 115, if any were different it was the last one and that would have been S&B 115. I do record the number of what brand ammo was fired in each range trip.

That's a very common issue, and will require some work to move past. Try this book:

Breakthrough Marksmanship: The Tools of Practical Shooting
by Ben Stoeger
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/1091416818/

Forget about differences in ammo. That's a waste of time.

[spence]

That's a very common issue, and will require some work to move past. Try this book:

Breakthrough Marksmanship: The Tools of Practical Shooting
by Ben Stoeger
https://smile.amazon.com/dp/1091416818/

Forget about differences in ammo. That's a waste of time.

Oooh, yay, book! Be a good excuse to read something again. I’m also not that concerned about ammo. That was the indirect point of 50+ yard targets. I get about the same result from any of the ammo mentioned above. I figure consistently hitting an IDPA silhouette at 60 or 70 yards is sufficiently accurate. I would like to get where they’re not outside the -1 zone.

As for competing. That’s not something that’s super close to me. I would definitely like to get into IDPA. There is a range about an hour out that does run and gun, steel challenge, and two gun each month. I’m going over for their run gun here in a week and a half. Would have gone sooner, but since I work for myself, Saturday’s don’t always have the sanctity of being days off. I’m hoping it’s a gateway into more competitive shooting.

[okie john]

I needed to make sure that I wasn’t talking out my ass yesterday, so I went to the range and made these six-shot groups at 10 yards offhand with my Model 29-2. No warmup, I just shot three groups and headed for the house.

http://i.imgur.com/UUP2hNd.jpg (https://imgur.com/UUP2hNd)

I fired the center group first. Load was American Eagle 240-grain JHP, which chronographs at 1,257 fps in this revolver. Extreme spread is 1.25”. The flyer that’s out to the left was my last shot and I felt it go bad. It’s 100% my fault. The other five shots are 0.95” center-to-center.

I fired the right-hand group second. Load was the HSM 240-grain cowboy load, which chronographs at 1,143 fps in this revolver. Extreme spread is 1.77”. Nothing spectacular.

I fired the left-hand group last. Load was the HSM 200-grain cowboy load, which chronographs 861 fps in this revolver. Extreme spread is 1.11”.

Comparing the POIs is interesting. POI for Group 1 without the flyer is 0.75” left and 0.25” low. POI for Group 2 is pretty much dead on for windage and elevation. POI for Group 3 is on for windage but 1.375” low.

For social work inside of 10 yards, all three loads are accurate enough and pretty much zeroed. But POI between the two 240-grain loads varies by about four inches inches at 25 yards and about eight inches at 50 yards. At 100, a cylinder full from one load will be on the paper but only about half of a cylinder full from the other will be on the paper. The 200-grain load shot the best group here and it groups as well as the other two at 25 yards, but it’s so bad at 50 that continued testing there or at greater distance would be a waste of time. It’s interesting that both cast-bullet loads are dead on for windage while the jacketed load hits 0.75” to the left. Not sure why that is, but I see the same dispersion at 25 and 50 yards.

Opinions vary, but I feel like this is good information to have in mind if I need to hit anything beyond about 10 yards.

Let me know if you have questions.


Okie John

[BN]

Comparing the POIs is interesting.
Okie John

People will say their pistol is sighted in, but the load makes an enormous difference. I have seen similar but slightly different loads have a significantly different POI.

[lwt16]

45305

This is an old shot from a thread about G41s being okay for indoor bullseye. Ten rounds S&b 230 grain.

Freestyle 2 handed. I rarely shoot that close for groups but do run support hand only at 15 yards to work on trigger press.

[CraigS]

Re; wobble. 20 yrs ago just started shooting pistols so I read a lot and still do. Two things I remember were from a bullseye how to article but I think they still apply to us shooting groups. His 1st point was there is always wobble so forget about it and do NOT try to time your shot to fire as the sights move across the bullseye. Get the sights lined up and do a smooth trigger pull and you will be fine. Over time wobble will decrease so you will get better groups. 2nd point was about time and hand/arm steadiness. These numbers are not exact, and would vary by person etc, but give an overall idea. Starting the time your sights first align w/ the bulls eye 0-2 to 4 seconds you haven't calmed yet from the initial movement. From the 2 to 4 seconds out to maybe 15-18 seconds you will be at your steadiest. Beyond that steadiness drops off. With this in mind, when I am shooting slow fire at small or further away targets, I usually shoot 3-4 shots, relax, and shoot 3-4 more and so on. Obviously this only applies to that one style of shooting. One other thing that works for me is my first shot I will often use that 3rd sight picture where you put the front sight covering the bulls eye. Especially in DA, I kind of know I will jerk the trigger a little which will pull the shot low, so I aim a little high.

[Alpha Sierra]

What's closer to human anatomy, an IDPA Target or a black bullseye?

[jetfire]

What's closer to human anatomy, an IDPA Target or a black bullseye?

That's not really a relevant question, since what we're concerned with is marksmanship. Besides, I can flip the question - what's closer to the size of the actual vital target area on a person: an 8 inch circle or a 4 inch circle?

The whole point of shooting things like B8s or NRA-AP targets is to improve your marksmanship ability, so that when you need to make a shot on a real target you're not devoting computer cycles to thinking about the front sight or the trigger press.

[HopetonBrown]

What's closer to human anatomy, an IDPA Target or a black bullseye?Kyle Defoor talked about where on the body to target. The triangle formed by the nipples and sternal notch. That was his reasoning for B8s.

[Alpha Sierra]

That's not really a relevant question, since what we're concerned with is marksmanship. Besides, I can flip the question - what's closer to the size of the actual vital target area on a person: an 8 inch circle or a 4 inch circle?

The whole point of shooting things like B8s or NRA-AP targets is to improve your marksmanship ability, so that when you need to make a shot on a real target you're not devoting computer cycles to thinking about the front sight or the trigger press.
I went back to the OP to make sure I didn't misread, and I didn't.

His accuracy is golden to 15 yards. He's worried about accuracy at distances that one would be hard pressed to legally defend a shot.

I stand on my point.

[jetfire]

I went back to the OP to make sure I didn't misread, and I didn't.

His accuracy is golden to 15 yards. He's worried about accuracy at distances that one would be hard pressed to legally defend a shot.

I stand on my point.

OP is concerned about improving his marksmanship skills. He didn’t mention personal defense. While that may or may not be his concern, since he asked a marksmanship question, we should address that question and not try and move the goalposts out of pedantry.

I understand that you may not have anything of value to contribute to a thread about marksmanship, so in that case why not take my father’s advice and simply say nothing?

[HopetonBrown]

He's worried about accuracy at distances that one would be hard pressed to legally defend a shot.

"As you look at the news and recent attacks, you can see a clear trend of bad guys clueing in to the effectiveness of long guns. Whether the attack is on a church, a school, an event, or an office, the trendline suggests that the man or woman in a position to stop the next one may find themselves in a standoff fight using their handgun against a killer with a rifle or shotgun.

This radically alters the 'good enough' accuracy standards that most accept in training. Barely good enough at five yards translates to 'not even close' at standoff."

-Justin Dyal

https://www.swatmag.com/article/standoff-handgun-drills-accuracy-at-situational-speed/

[spence]

I may be wrong, but I've been attempting to operate on a two pronged approach, balancing 3-10 yard speed with greater precision at ranges beyond that, even adding a little speed pressure at 25, depending on circumstances.

After being in a church safety course a couple months ago, there is indeed some validity to being able to make accurate shots at more extended ranges.

In relation to the 25 yard freestyle shooting, I'm gathering the need for much more time taken in shooting that kind of shooting.

I may also be just weird, but I find it a fun challenge to shoot long range with a pistol.