Robbery Intervention Gone Wrong: What can be Learned From This?

[Millenial Pistolero]

This incident occurred in my neck of the woods, and has had me reevaluate what my possible response to a situation like this would be. What can we learn from this incident? Was it right for the good guy to intervene the way that he did?


Story attached below:


https://abc13.com/video-shows-robbers-storm-pawn-shop-where-customer-was-killed/5714349/

[paherne]

Gunfights are dangerous. I am reminded of the inestimable Oscar Gamble's sage quote, "They don't think it be like it is, but it do."

[Lost River]

May he rest in peace, and May God Bless him for trying to do what he felt as right.

A steep learning curve for sure.

[Alpha Sierra]

What can we learn from this incident?

If you're going to go one against two, you better be damned near GM levels of fast and accurate?

If it ain't your shit, let it go?

Hard to glean much more from that stellar reporting.

[Totem Polar]

If you're going to go one against two, you better be damned near GM levels of fast and accurate?


Off the X, cover/concealment? If they could centerpunch him without getting through a bunch of Les Paul and Stratocaster bodies, and a rack or two of rusty snapon socket sets and worn leather jackets first, then he was F.A.S.T.ing wrong. Still sucks; he sounds like my sort of people. May justice find the two dirtbags, soon.

[Lost River]

While it is easy to be critical of this incident, as we have the luxury of knowing the outcome, many of us, especially those of us who made a profession of actually hunting the worst predators that prey on the weak of society need to bear a couple things in mind;

After watching the video the first thought was "He should have kept his hands up and visible, to show (or give the illusion) he was not a threat to the two scumbags."

Even if to mentally have them orient themselves elsewhere.

That said,

Most of us who have hunted that particular 1% of the human race can relate to the mental process of looking at a person and pre-gaming your attack mode. Maybe not necessarily in this case, but thinking "I am going to leg sweep/face grab and drive this dude's head into the dirt, followed by knee drive to the Solar Plexus (thus ending 99% of crap before it becomes a knock down drag out)

Following my personal #1 rule of "where the head goes, the body follows".

Anyways, while I would like to think I would have not done anything, kept hands visible and let these guys do their bit, and let them walk, as long as they did not get physically violent, or start shooting, I also bear in mind that some of us are wired a certain way.

In the course of 20 years I have also personally been present during two convenience store episodes where a person decided that they were going to rob the place. Once while I was in uniform (as a brand new P.O.) and once while off duty, and with my partner, who's crazy ass literally put his 1911 on the glass counter top, pulled out some scratch lottery tickets scratching them and waited to see how I was going to handle the guy :rolleyes:. I had already told the clerk to dial 911 and the local PD was running silent code to us. After the locals got there and grabbed him I was looking at my partner giving him that WTF! conversation that most guys here know and have had with co-workers. His reply was something to the effect of "I knew you had the guy so I was just going to watch and hang out with the girls (clerks)".
That was one still makes me chuckle.



Anyways, this guy got in over his head and did not have a solid plan.

Somebody was faster and that unfortunately, was the end of his story.

[Cypher]

There was a story on ARFCOM (yes I am aware ARFCOM sucks)several years ago about one of their members who was robbed at gunpoint and engaged the robber.

Now in his case the robber had already herded them into a back room and laid them down on the floor and by everything I've ever been taught that's a REALLY not a good sign. So, he may have felt that he had no option.

Every time I read the story The main thing that I got from it is that The Instant the victim showed any resistance at all the robber shot him without The Slightest hesitation.

And that's something that I think about every time I even consider if I would intervene in a robbery.

That said, I've only even ever witnessed one robbery and I didn't even realize what I was seeing till it was over. The robber ran by me so fast that I couldn't even tell you what color he was.

[Alpha Sierra]

Off the X, cover/concealment? If they could centerpunch him without getting through a bunch of Les Paul and Stratocaster bodies, and a rack or two of rusty snapon socket sets and worn leather jackets first, then he was F.A.S.T.ing wrong. Still sucks; he sounds like my sort of people. May justice find the two dirtbags, soon.

Hard to say from the video. From what I could see it seems he tried to engage once they were behind the counter. Meaning the shitbags had partial concealment and he appears to be standing in the middle of the aisle.

It went down fast for sure.

[Erick Gelhaus]

It's cliche, and also very unfortunate, the BadGuy(s) always get a vote.

Quite difficult to tell from the video what exactly was going on. Getting distance, backing down that aisle - even a bit, might well have been a better idea and had some benefit. Might.

[GardoneVT]

Off the X, cover/concealment...

Neither of which would stop a “sleeper” customer or hidden assailant behind the Samaritan. This happened in a WalMart not long ago, and the permit holder died in that incident as well.

[Totem Polar]

It's cliche, and also very unfortunate, the BadGuy(s) always get a vote.

Quite difficult to tell from the video what exactly was going on. Getting distance, backing down that aisle - even a bit, might well have been a better idea and had some benefit. Might.


At the least, sidestepping a la Givens while presenting would have kept the other dude from just point-shooting him to death on reflex—which is sort of what it looked like to me (.58 or .59 in on the vid).

[45dotACP]

The main problem I see is that the deceased (God rest his soul and bless his bravery) seemed to be operating on the assertion that most criminals (even armed ones) will flee/melt from the mere presence of a gun or the sound of a gunshot. That isn't always going to be the case...and if it isn't gonna be the case, you're gonna have a gunfight on your hands and you had better hope you're the better fighter.

The problem there is that they did flee...but he positioned himself between the armed assailants and the door, so they'd have to run past him, meaning an exchange of gunfire was inevitable...and unfortunately he wasn't able to solve the problem. A cornered animal is dangerous...especially at such close distances.

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[Jeff22]

The more training that you get, and the more that you study confrontations, the more you realize how many things can go wrong and how quickly it can happen.

[HCM]

Neither of which would stop a “sleeper” customer or hidden assailant behind the Samaritan. This happened in a WalMart not long ago, and the permit holder died in that incident as well.

That was not a robbery. It was a Domestic Terrorism incident. It was in Las Vegas about 4 years ago. A couple, both sovereign citizen/ milita types who had been kicked off the bundy ranch by the militia for being to unstable decided to murder some cops on a meal break at a CiCis pizza. The shooters then ran to Walmart where the CCW holder confronted the male and was taken out by the female.

Regardless, as the homies say “Life’s a risk Carnal!”

[HCM]

At the least, sidestepping a la Givens while presenting would have kept the other dude from just point-shooting him to death on reflex—which is sort of what it looked like to me (.58 or .59 in on the vid).

Not really.

[HCM]

Off the X, cover/concealment? If they could centerpunch him without getting through a bunch of Les Paul and Stratocaster bodies, and a rack or two of rusty snapon socket sets and worn leather jackets first, then he was F.A.S.T.ing wrong. Still sucks; he sounds like my sort of people. May justice find the two dirtbags, soon.

That seems like the logical thing to do but if you watch enough videos of actual gun fights people rarely go to cover once shots are fired.

[psalms144.1]

Lessons learned for me, based on the VERY minimal information available and crappy video:

1. BE A GOOD WITNESS. How many times do we have to hammer into off duty cops NOT to intervene barring immediate threat to life/limb? Yes, there were two BG with handguns engaged in a robbery - what triggered the requirement to intervene? I didn't see (could be the video quality) any indication that this was anything other than a robbery - let them take the cash/jewelry and get out.

2. Distance is your friend. No reason not to make space - I mean, we're ALWAYS better shots than the BGs, right? But, as previously pointed out, it looked like the fatal shot was delivered at arms length, while moving, one handed at close range - a shot that would likely NOT connect if the deceased had been 10 feet further back.

3. Combo of above. Even IF BG1 hadn't ended this fight with a possibly very lucky (for him) shot, the deceased placed himself pretty close to between two armed assailants. In the grand scheme of things, this is a BAD PLACE to start the gunfight from. Two shooters, close to me, too far apart for me to stack, I'm backing up with my hands up until I'm in cover. Then, IF the situation goes sideways, I have the advantage, not the BGs.

My prayers go out for the soul of the deceased and the family he left behind.

[Totem Polar]

Not really.

Not really as in sidestepping wouldn’t help, or not really as in BG wasn’t just point shooting?

[Alpha Sierra]

Then there's also the not inconceivable idea that the thug is as skilled (or more) as you with a handgun...…..

[HCM]

Not really as in sidestepping wouldn’t help, or not really as in BG wasn’t just point shooting?

Not really as side stepping isn’t enough movement to make a real difference. Movement is good but a single side step has little to no effect IME.

Not to be too critical of Mr. Givens but we have a lot more actual shooting videos and a lot more time watching people in force on force evolutions. Along those lines there are a lot of things that are logical for people to do like taking cover once rounds start flying or dropping things in their hand instead of shooting one handed but we don’t see them doing them under duress.

[HCM]

Then there's also the not inconceivable idea that the thug is as skilled (or more) as you with a handgun...…..

At 0 to 10 yards - yes, it is certainly possible. The type of crooks that would be up for robbing a gun store do practice IME. Many times they have been shot at and had guns pointed at them before so they are somewhat stress inoculated as well.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Since I am not a warrior, take this for what it is worth. In a class, an instructor had me hold him at gun point. He was going to demonstrate a side step and a draw. Now he didn't announce that, but that was the plan from the debrief. First, I'm lefty so he stepped towards my gun hand. Then I 'shot' him. The head instructor said you should known better to the 'shooter'. Later, he was avenged as when I had to walk through a door, they both immediately jumped me. I had to walk through the door without a tactical 'song and dance'. I shot both of them, they shot me in peripheral hits. Who knows what would have happened for real.

[blues]

^^^There are no guarantees, even in training. In SWAT school my trainer, (former SEAL Team 6), set up a night ambush of my team as we did an entry on a cement factory in the Everglades. Using non lethal ammo available back then, he managed to hit me in the weak side forearm, while I hit him center of mass while he was hiding on a stairwell.

What would happen in the real world? I'd venture to say, more times than not, he'd have dropped me.

As mentioned above, if life and limb are not immediately in dire jeopardy and you don't have the skill, or cover / concealment to effectively take on the threat, why engage?

Circumstances will dictate what follows, but we can train our minds to evaluate various scenarios beforehand.

[Totem Polar]

HCM, thanks for clarifying; duly noted.

[RevolverRob]

Those camera angles make it hard for me to tell much about what happened, let alone what to learn specifically. But generally, the decedent stood almost completely still. Which tells me he wasn’t really prepared more than having a gun.

You ever see someone freeze in a crosswalk when they think someone is going to run into them? Deer in the headlights. Same thing. When you are that far behind the processing curve you’re going to have a hard time catching up, period.

Compressed time/problem solving under duress is a difficult skill to establish, let alone master.

To me the lesson isn’t just Get Off the X - though that is part of it, it’s that we must train and push ourselves to recognize rapidly changing environments and respond quickly. Moving targets, shoots and no shoots, force on force, it’s all part of the equation.

[GJM]

Without suggesting this is advice for others, and acknowledging my lack of expertise in this area, my thought process is — Ambiguity, Alternatives, and Advantage.

Ambiguity to me means is this really what it appears to be, as in, is what I think is happening really happening, and is the bad guy really the bad guy or bad guys. It would really suck to get shot or shoot someone because you were wrong about what was happening.

Alternatives to me means, can I do something else like exit or do nothing, and is this my hill to possibly die on.

Advantage to me means, when is the best moment to act decisively.

[fixer]

Its Houston Texas... so armed robbers have already priced in at least one instance of armed resistance. So better bring two, or three, or four bros to carry out the task.

Combined with the old adage "the bad guy is advantaged because he/she/they always have the jump..."

At those distances...looked like 3-5 yds... your speed matters a lot.

Because, at it turns out, those assailants looked like real apex types, one bullet in a c or d zone isn't gonna end the fight. And with two of them that's a shit sandwich unless you are Gabe White from concealment. So...accuracy mattered a lot too...

Didn't see any good options for cover/concealment. The counter is a bust. If you duck then you lose track of the bad guys.

All in, I'd say the best option would have been to wait for a better opportunity to intervene. Combined with better speed, better accuracy, the good guy might have prevailed.

[Cypher]

I honestly don't believe I would resist against two guys in that situation unless I really thought I was going to die if I didn't.

From everything I've ever been taught this probably isn't the bad guy's first time being shot at and he's probably expecting it and has a plan.

[Alpha Sierra]

It goes without saying that the typical CCW guy isn't like everyone here who trains and competes.

The level of competence of the average gun carrier is shockingly low. Someone like that is likely to lose going against two dudes who aren't in their first rodeo.

[Lost River]

Lots of good points made.

The comments about being too close are spot on.

I remember I was co-teaching at a college LE program at the range. One of the kids said "Trooper" Can we shoot close, I am really good up close.

I chuckled and repeated what I had heard an instructor say to someone else a number of years back. " Kid, everyone shoots good up close".




Bless him for trying. For all the things he did wrong, he still stepped up.



Teddy Roosevelt.



"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."

[Russ856]

A real fight to live is always going to be dynamic.

26 years ago I was face down on a restaurant floor with a gun held over me. 100% I believed that I would be killed, but the drop was on me and the gunman was serious I believed. I was an employee of the establishment. I chose to comply yet thought about what I could do or grab to hit him with......Given the circumstance I decided my chances of fighting to stop him were low. My gun was in my car (absolutely useless) I grew up shooting guns my entire life but in no way was I mentally prepared for this situation. I ended up being forced into a freezer and wasn’t shot,,,pure luck on my part.

That experience changed me forever, how I think, my vigilance, everything.

Without numbers or spewing what can’t be or will work, I’ll just say that being prepared to fight “quickly” with the mindset of taking care of business when it occurs is pretty much your only hope in an exposed circumstance like in the video shown. There’s no way to make it safe being exposed like that. The chance of getting shot in a private business containing cash is as high or higher perhaps than working patrol.

Possessing the skill to be calm and conduct your business as needed as well as possessing the skill to be faster reacting with violence faster than the adversary both could be the difference between surviving or dying in ones daily normally peaceful environment. Displaying a firearm isn’t enough to thwart a thug. As someone else said already here, they shoot at each other and aren’t afraid.......... They don’t care.....

What can be learned here? Doing business in today’s society is dangerous, where there is money there is a draw for the thugs to come and take it. If you’re going to be exposed, learning to fight beyond target shooting is vital. It’s never going to be safe.