Would you trust a P320?

[zpelletier]

I really like the look and feel of some of the never P320s, like the X-Compact. However, I feel like SIG is just one problem after another with these guns. It just seems like there’s some issues popping up all the time, and maybe SIG handles them well, but I don’t want to be a test dummy with the tools I trust my life to. How do you feel? Or is it better sticking with a more reliable brand like HK (not glock since I live in CT)?

[NPV]

I really like the look and feel of some of the never P320s, like the X-Compact. However, I feel like SIG is just one problem after another with these guns. It just seems like there’s some issues popping up all the time, and maybe SIG handles them well, but I don’t want to be a test dummy with the tools I trust my life to. How do you feel? Or is it better sticking with a more reliable brand like HK (not glock since I live in CT)?

I live in CT as well. I’m wondering what the issue with owning a Glock is?

[voodoo_man]

p320's are a NO GO.

[LockedBreech]

Honestly? I probably would. Most of them are probably fine.

But I wouldn’t buy and carry one, because I don’t want to support the kind of underhanded corporate behavior and doublespeak Sig seems fond of these days.

I’d feel much, much better with a M2.0, VP9, Gen4 or Gen5 Glock.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[98z28]

I do, but I don't recomend them to anyone. I'm still training with and carrying upgraded 320's that I had before Dropgate. The examples in my posession have performed just fine. I don't think they'll spontaneously discharge...anymore.

[farscott]

If I was in a position to be issued one, I would not be concerned about it as long as I know it to have been through the upgrade program. The sheer amount of attention that comes along with a DoD-issue handgun means the level of scrutiny is high and issues are found quickly. I remember when the M9 entered DoD service and the concerns about cracked slides. That pistol went on to serve with no major issues, and most of the issues were caused by bad magazines or a total lack of lube. I expect the M17 guns to be much the same. There will be some initial issues, fixes will be found, and the guns will work just fine.

That being said, I am not going to spend my money on one as there are other designs that work better for me.

[t1tan]

No, that goes for all Sig products.

[El Cid]

I despise Sig for how they behave and won’t give them any more of my money. I would not be comfortable carrying a P320.

[Clusterfrack]

I was happy shooting p320s, and like a lot about the design. They are impressively durable, reliable, and accurate. The ergos work well for a wide variety of shooters.

There are a few weak points, including an ejector that can be bent by forceful magazine over insertion, and cannot be replaced (it is part of the FCU). There is a small spring in the striker assembly that is easy to lose. But not a bad design overall.

I sold all of mine because I prefer Glocks and CZs.

[Totem Polar]

Not that anyone should care what I think, but: one, I am of the belief that anyone trying to make a Glock with "a lighter/better trigger" will get just that, with all that implies, so, no. And 2, fuck Sig Mgmt. for the way they handled the whole thing.

OMMV, obviously. I’m not going to unfriend any Sig owners on FB over it. Or series 70 Colt owners, or Colt SAA owners...

[jbrimlow]

Would I trust a P320? Maybe? They got a lot of attention, plus the DoD contract/scrutiny, so I think they probably got the engineering right eventually.

I guess I'm wondering why I'd give it a second look when there are so many other options out there.

I have a P320 FS, but I don't shoot it very much. My VP9, PPQ, and 2011s are more fun to shoot, handle better, and haven't given me reason to question them. Or make me feel like I'm a beta tester who paid for the "privilege".

[tlong17]

You won't find many, if any, in support of anything Sig here. You can tell by my post count I don't post often (or at all) but I read here frequently. My feeling is, unless you have something important to contribute, keep your mouth shut.

Having had a P320 since 2017 and 35k rounds through it to date, I have not had any issues other than needing to replace recoil springs and sending it in for the slide and disconnector "upgrade". The same can be said for the P365 I purchased last year in April. It only has about 6k rounds through it but I have not had any issues with it either, including the failure to return to battery and striker issues others have reported.

Both of these firearms have performed well. I do not hesitate carrying either one with me, which I can also say about my gen 3 G19 and G17 which are of course great pistols.

A lot of the hate for Sig also stems from the perception of their poor business practices. Regarding their marketing related practices, I don't know why people get so worked up over a business trying to make money and stay in business. Many seem to think it's better to not market at all and just expect to buy your product based on it being under the glass at the gun shop.

My one concern with Sig is what some call using consumers as "beta testers" by pushing out a product so that we can find out what isn't working, and then create a new model or "upgrade" to fix it. I don't like the idea of being a beta tester either, at the same time, I appreciate their willingness to listen and make changes. They have also been very quick to innovate by introducing things like the P365 and X-series of P320's. A common modern business strategy is to create a product you can bring to market quickly, and then improve from there. A "minimum viable product" type of approach, which is fine for software, but not so much for a defensive firearm many will trust their life with and the lives of their family members/squad members.

Just remember that most here don't really appreciate Sig and have been long-time users of other platforms (Glock, HK, Berretta DA/SA, etc.) and may have a confirmation bias they may not be aware of, regardless of how much they try to say otherwise.

[Squib308]

it's an interesting design
mine have been reliable and accurate
I am able to shoot them fine but when speeding up I find the trigger requires far more attention to detail than other more forgiving SFAs
if I were selecting an SFA (thank god I don't have to) it would be a glock or perhaps APX

with regards to the P320, when I took armorer course in NH I recall being puzzled how the sear resets without a disconnector. I brought this up but was told the platform doesn't need them...well I guess they learned otherwise!

two objective reasons I am annoying with Sig and thus got out of the P320s:
1) with the "upgrade" Sig's machining of the slide to facilitate the disconnector function resulted in two odd consequences:
a) the OOB disconnector does not function
b) the sear does not reset to upward position until the slide is fully rearward in its cycle

I found both of these issues unacceptable particularly the introduction of a safety mechanism that is not functional. once i pointed this out to Sig I magically had all 3 of my slides replaced by Sig. it's BS that a customer has to push a manufacturer to do what is obviously right...replace parts that are anything less than 100%.

2) with the new sear disconnector and OOB disconnect, my armorer manual and course learning are out-of-date. Sig should offer us either a free or heavily discounted course, or better off send us a new armorer manual with some electronic method to learn the new platform.

[GardoneVT]

I wouldn’t trust anything with a SIG SAUER rollmark, including the P-320.

I know enough about business management to realize decisions like “Dropgate” don’t happen in a vacuum. A well led company knows profit is earned by gaining and retaining customers. It is NOT the goal of the organization.

Profit is in fact a byproduct of making happy customers. But if that metric becomes the only goal, it leads to all kinds of strife and havoc. Hell, you don’t even need a customer to have profit- just cut your expenses enough, or invent customers by creating fraudulent transactions or inventory management. It’s unethical and will kill your org, but the short term profit metrics look good!

When management of a company decides its metrics are more important then healthy or happy customers, it points to a systemic decision process around that philosophy. What other “dropgate” skeletons lurk in Sigs closet we don’t know about? The P320s just the most visible of Sigs multitude of SKUs. Since their corporate legal and product resolution team are now the same department, I’m done with the House of Sauer.

[zpelletier]

I live in CT as well. I’m wondering what the issue with owning a Glock is?

Oh I’ve had them in the past and always had reliability issues with the 10 round mags. I’ve read about other people doing much more extensive testing than I have and coming up with the same issues. If I could find it I would link it.

[NPV]

Oh I’ve had them in the past and always had reliability issues with the 10 round mags. I’ve read about other people doing much more extensive testing than I have and coming up with the same issues. If I could find it I would link it.

I’m fairly sure that was resolved with a different follower. Though I could be wrong I just happened to browse a thread about it a while ago.

Paging Larry Sellers, I know he has experience with this subject.

[cornstalker]

I do, but I don't recommend them to anyone. The examples in my possession have performed just fine. I don't think they'll spontaneously discharge...anymore.

Same boat here. I have repeatedly wished that they did not seem like they were custom made for my hand. No other pistol I have tried indexes as naturally, yet still allows me to reach all of the controls without breaking my grip. The form factor has dramatically improved my WHO shooting due to trigger reach and grip shape.

I have ordered the Agency tabbed trigger to solve one problem, now I have to worry about the OOB disconnector issue. FML...


I will migrate back to HK if "optics ready" ever becomes a thing, and would recommend HK to the OP.

[M2CattleCo]

No.

I think the guns are junk and Sig is a despicable company.

[psalms144.1]

I would not, based on knowledge and experience of Sig's utter and complete lack of QC and basic morals as a company. I LOVE the design of the P320, but I don't trust Sig to make them correctly. The one (X-Carry) that I had went back to Sig twice in two months for warranty repair (after some fighting), then went down the road with full disclosure because I just won't trust it.

On top of that, fuck Cohen and his total lack of morality.

[RevolverRob]

No, I would not trust a P320.

In fact, for the most part, I have an innate distrust of most new striker guns. The fact that the P320, PPQ, VP9, FN 509 can all drop the striker with a sharp rap is a enough for me to say, "No." It appears the APX and M&P 2.0 are better, but I'm cautious.

Then again, you're talking to a guy whose preference is to carry a gun that was designed almost 110 years ago. So...I'm not exactly a guy who is fast to trust or adopt anything.

[ratter75]

No way, no how. Especially not AIWB. Which is a shame because the form factors of the XC, 365 and 365XL are outstanding. And they have really embraced the idea of optics ready.

[zpelletier]

I’m fairly sure that was resolved with a different follower. Though I could be wrong I just happened to browse a thread about it a while ago.

Paging Larry Sellers, I know he has experience with this subject.

I have read about swapping followed fixing the issue, I just don’t think that should be my responsibility as the consumer to modify a product to make it reliable. If Glock themselves fixed the issue that’s a different story.

[zpelletier]

I would not, based on knowledge and experience of Sig's utter and complete lack of QC and basic morals as a company. I LOVE the design of the P320, but I don't trust Sig to make them correctly. The one (X-Carry) that I had went back to Sig twice in two months for warranty repair (after some fighting), then went down the road with full disclosure because I just won't trust it.

On top of that, fuck Cohen and his total lack of morality.

This is basically how I feel about it. I just wasn’t sure if I was overthinking it or something like that. It’s winter so I’m currently carrying my P30L (which I love). I want to try a striker fired that isn’t Glock and I looked at the P320 and just didn’t feel like I could trust it. I know some people have had issues with the VP9 as well though.

[YVK]

Funny thread.

SIG has certainly made it easy to be hated. Starting from.this gem Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.
U.S. GAO-B-402339.3 and to its abhorrent behavior after finding out the drop safety problem. I am no exception, I despise the company.

As to the merits of their products,
- Their latest duty offering went neck in neck in the trials supposedly done for shooters and with shooters direct involvement
- They won trials of a no BS European military
- Their competition models are raining lead on paper and steel without hiccups, practicality taking over divisions and winning matches from locals to Nats
- A number of us here, not necessarily complete rookies, have not had any troubles with 365XL. At all.
- Their gen3 PCC is the best out of box PCC.

Hate and emotions aside, I'd have zero problems carrying a post upgrade P320. I am a Glock guy, but I dont think that the P320 is inferior to Glock.

[TGS]

Would I trust the P320?

I would trust a personal example I had a chance to put 1,000 rounds through.

I don't trust the company, however, and would not opt to put my own money into a P320 when I can choose any number of alternatives. If I were on the selection committee for an agency, I wouldn't vote for the P320, either.



- They won trials of a no BS European military

Who dat?

[TheNewbie]

Would I trust the P320?

I would trust a personal example I had a chance to put 1,000 rounds through.

I don't trust the company, however, and would not opt to put my own money into a P320 when I can choose any number of alternatives. If I were on the selection committee for an agency, I wouldn't vote for the P320, either.



Who dat?

The Danes maybe? Replaced the P210.

[M2CattleCo]

What Sig sells to mil/le is NOT the same quality they sell to us peasants, so the adoption of the pistol by them, should have no influence on us.

[OlongJohnson]

I wouldn't carry a cocked single action with no safety, and the M17 safety looks possibly awkward to use and like it would interfere with actuating the slide catch tab. And there's no Gadget for it. So no, I don't own one and wouldn't carry it.

However, I find the way it points for me and the grip module ecosystem compelling enough I'm contemplating going all in on the P250. It shares magazines, barrels and grip modules with the P320, so it should feed just as reliably. Its trigger makes it a lot like a really nice K frame with 12, 15, 17 or 21 rounds on board and a Pic rail ahead of the trigger guard. And it has a built-in Gadget. (Sorry, Tom, but I think that's actually your way of expressing it.)

[MGW]

I really like the look and feel of some of the never P320s, like the X-Compact. However, I feel like SIG is just one problem after another with these guns. It just seems like there’s some issues popping up all the time, and maybe SIG handles them well, but I don’t want to be a test dummy with the tools I trust my life to. How do you feel? Or is it better sticking with a more reliable brand like HK (not glock since I live in CT)?

The 320 might be fine. Sigs customer service probably won’t be fine if you get a bad one. A VP9 and VP9sk would cover all your bases if you want something other than Glock.

[TheNewbie]

I wouldn't carry a cocked single action with no safety, and the M17 safety looks possibly awkward to use and like it would interfere with actuating the slide catch tab. And there's no Gadget for it. So no, I don't own one and wouldn't carry it.

However, I find the way it points for me and the grip module ecosystem compelling enough I'm contemplating going all in on the P250. It shares magazines, barrels and grip modules with the P320, so it should feed just as reliably. Its trigger makes it a lot like a really nice K frame with 12, 15, 17 or 21 rounds on board and a Pic rail ahead of the trigger guard. And it has a built-in Gadget. (Sorry, Tom, but I think that's actually your way of expressing it.)


I wish I had bought 4 P250s when they were being sold cheap.

[El Cid]

- Their competition models are raining lead on paper and steel without hiccups, practicality taking over divisions and winning matches from locals to Nats


Perhaps. But competitive shooters - especially high performers - don’t treat (mistreat) their pistols the way LE/mil personnel will.

[YVK]

Who dat?


This little infomercial made its way here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ANG0e6N6aQ&feature=youtu.be

[-ad-]

I purchased a P320-RX - the original. Maybe it's the way things were handled that's left a bad taste in my mouth and I'm being unfairly biased - but after the whole P320 thing that I observed I'm struggling to trust the whole company now, not just the P320.

[YVK]

Perhaps. But competitive shooters - especially high performers - don’t treat (mistreat) their pistols the way LE/mil personnel will.

They do shoot a lot more though. Regardless, I didn't get a feeling that the original post was about merits of this pistol as a mass issued item. I thought it was a private ownership that was being discussed here.

[Borderland]

No, I would not trust a P320.

In fact, for the most part, I have an innate distrust of most new striker guns. The fact that the P320, PPQ, VP9, FN 509 can all drop the striker with a sharp rap is a enough for me to say, "No." It appears the APX and M&P 2.0 are better, but I'm cautious.

Then again, you're talking to a guy whose preference is to carry a gun that was designed almost 110 years ago. So...I'm not exactly a guy who is fast to trust or adopt anything.


Say no more.;)

[kwb377]

What Sig sells to mil/le is NOT the same quality they sell to us peasants, so the adoption of the pistol by them, should have no influence on us.

What are the differences?

The agency I just retired from was contemplating swapping to the P320 from GG22's about 2 years ago. I currently own a fullsize .45, an X-Carry, a sub compact (w/ X-Compact grip module), and just sold my M17. I was able to fieldstrip the agency gun and finger-bang it briefly when we had it, and I can't see any obvious differences in my personal weapons (purchased either new retail or used...not LEO program).

I've been carrying my X-Carry for about a year at my new job, but just replaced it with a VP9...not due to any safety/reliability concerns, I just found that I like/shoot the H&K a little better. The X-Carry is now my bedside handgun.

I can't comment on Sig's leadership or business practices, as I don't have any knowledge of what's been going on (I know about Dropgate). But I suspect they're as shady and underhanded as the management practices of numerous large corporations.

[Zman001]

No. BIL bought a 226 legion, sat in a dehumidified safe for a week, had surface rust

Friend bought a 320 X-carry, carried if for 2 weeks, and the mag release was so rusted that it would stick open. It wasn't even light surface stuff, you can see pitting. They also wanted him to pay shipping and a service fee for fixing the gun

[JRB]

There's a whole lot of M17's in holsters worn by combat arms guys out in this neck of the woods. A lot of them look pretty rough already. I talked to an E5 carrying one in a chow hall not long ago; he's with an Armored element and he said the first 30-40 or so pistols they had got the shit ran out of them to get the whole Brigade through a familiarization fire/qualifications, and they were reputedly very reliable and the Soldiers overwhelmingly preferred the M17 to the M9.

Which is about what I expected, to be honest. I'm hoping this means I can be that codger that's okay with keeping an M9 while everyone else gets M17's, when it's finally our turn to get M17's.

[medmo]

Would I Trust a 320?

Yes. No more or less that any other striker fired action. I read through the posts and see a lot of subjective bashing. Subjective, meaning that the actual use of the pistol in the field doesn’t reflect an increased rate of an unexpected loud noise than any other striker fired action. If someone knows where that data is please point us to it. FYI - I don’t own one and have no dog in the fight.

[fixer]

I wouldn’t trust anything with a SIG SAUER rollmark, including the P-320.

I know enough about business management to realize decisions like “Dropgate” don’t happen in a vacuum. A well led company knows profit is earned by gaining and retaining customers. It is NOT the goal of the organization.

Profit is in fact a byproduct of making happy customers. But if that metric becomes the only goal, it leads to all kinds of strife and havoc. Hell, you don’t even need a customer to have profit- just cut your expenses enough, or invent customers by creating fraudulent transactions or inventory management. It’s unethical and will kill your org, but the short term profit metrics look good!

When management of a company decides its metrics are more important then healthy or happy customers, it points to a systemic decision process around that philosophy. What other “dropgate” skeletons lurk in Sigs closet we don’t know about? The P320s just the most visible of Sigs multitude of SKUs. Since their corporate legal and product resolution team are now the same department, I’m done with the House of Sauer.

This 100x...

[spinmove_]

I don’t see the point of going out of my way to put myself in the position to trust it in the first place. If you have one or are issued one, make sure it works properly and is maintained properly as well. There are other and better SFA pistols out on the market currently.

If the issue is that you need something that has reliable 10 round magazines then I’d look at something other than Glock or SIG. CZ, Beretta, HK, and maybe S&W have better options IMHO.

As long as Ron Cohen is head of SIG, SIG isn’t worth the trouble.

[98z28]

Warning: Thread drift follows. I apologize up front, though Sig's poor handling of Drogate is likely a good example of the problem discussed below.


...A well led company knows profit is earned by gaining and retaining customers. It is NOT the goal of the organization.

Profit is in fact a byproduct of making happy customers. But if that metric becomes the only goal, it leads to all kinds of strife and havoc...

No, and yes. Profit is in fact the primary goal of a corporation, though it cannot be the only meaningful metric by which managers are judged. Otherwise, you get what we've seen with Sig.

Corporations exist as stewards of owners' (shareholders') resources (money). They exist to maximize the lifetime value to owners. That means maximizing the lifetime profit of the corporation. Period. Full stop. Any other goals serve that one goal.

It turns out that treating customers and other stakeholders well is the best way we've found to maximize lifetime profit, but stating the goals the other way around leads to problems. Managers know they are judged on financial performance. Stating the corporate goals as otherwise can lead to managers treating "feel good" goals as fiction. Forgetting that the primary goal of a corporation is to maximize lifetime profit is part of what leads to poor governance and poor oversight.

This current push to define corporations as primarily fiduciaries of non-financial stakeholders is going to make problems worse, not better. Managers know that they are and will be judged and compensated otherwise. Let's be honest about the goal of the corporate form of organization so we can have an honest conversation about how to serve that goal...and so we can govern it well (referring to corporate governance, not necessarily state/federal regulation).

Dammit. I can't believe I'm drifting a thread to feed GardoneVT...

Getting this backwards matters. Corporations have too much power and influence over society to get this wrong. If Sig's board kept in mind that the managers have a strong incentive to screw customers in order to show a strong short-term profit, they'd (hopefully) keep a closer eye on things. They might even set compensation metrics that serve that goal, like the number of repeat/returning customers in addition to raw sales. Thinking that a corporation is basically good and will treat non-financial stakeholders well without strong management incentives and governance is a fantasy. It doesn't matter how you reword the vision/mission. It matters how you incentivise and oversee managers. You're only going to get that right if you are honest about the primary goal of the corporate form of organization.

[BigT]

What are the differences?

The agency I just retired from was contemplating swapping to the P320 from GG22's about 2 years ago. I currently own a fullsize .45, an X-Carry, a sub compact (w/ X-Compact grip module), and just sold my M17. I was able to fieldstrip the agency gun and finger-bang it briefly when we had it, and I can't see any obvious differences in my personal weapons (purchased either new retail or used...not LEO program).

I've been carrying my X-Carry for about a year at my new job, but just replaced it with a VP9...not due to any safety/reliability concerns, I just found that I like/shoot the H&K a little better. The X-Carry is now my bedside handgun.

I can't comment on Sig's leadership or business practices, as I don't have any knowledge of what's been going on (I know about Dropgate). But I suspect they're as shady and underhanded as the management practices of numerous large corporations.

I know military and I assume LE guns have different SKU's which apparently denote a higher(or maybe just an actual)level of QC.

When we were dealing with them a rep was adamant we had to only demo those SKu's to LE/mil clients. The models were identical otherwise.

[GJM]

For those who would not trust a 320, I wonder for how many it is because of Sig’s reputation, and for how many it is because they have actual experience shooting a 320 for thousands of rounds?

I don’t like Sig’s business style, but I see my wife’s Legion, and the Legions of my friends, successfully shooting thousands of rounds in a competitive environment.

[GlockenSpiel]

I'm not interested in carrying a single action pistol with no safety (and I'm not interested in a manual safety gun either). Minimum for me is da/sa or Glock type with a stock or heavier trigger, and maybe a SCD as well.

The P320 is *probably* reliable at this point, but even without the above criteria there is nothing to me to put it above or even on par with its competitors. I think Sig was wise to sell it to the military for so little, or else we'd be seeing it start to fade from relevance.

[kwb377]

I know military and I assume LE guns have different SKU's which apparently denote a higher(or maybe just an actual)level of QC.

When we were dealing with them a rep was adamant we had to only demo those SKu's to LE/mil clients. The models were identical otherwise.

Or maybe those SKU's indicated models specifically packaged w/ night sights and three magazines (like other manufacturers "LE" guns)?

[psalms144.1]

For those who would not trust a 320, I wonder for how many it is because of Sig’s reputation, and for how many it is because they have actual experience shooting a 320 for thousands of rounds?

I don’t like Sig’s business style, but I see my wife’s Legion, and the Legions of my friends, successfully shooting thousands of rounds in a competitive environment.Sample size of one, but my LE-SKU P320 never got CLOSE to 1,000 rounds before it had to go back to the factory, twice, then went down the road to someone else who's more impressed with the Sig name than I am.

I've got an EXTENSIVE list of parts breakages and failures of M17 and M18 pistols in the field, most of which were NOT subjected to thousands of rounds of shooting (or ANY dry fire - God Forbid) before they went TU.

I think we're seeing the opposite of confirmation bias here, when a single sample or small number of individual pieces operate better than the whole population. If you hang out with the kinds of folks you shoot with, George, you can get a slightly skewed view of what the "average" shooter is capable of.

On the question of LE SKUs/.mil contract guns, they are exactly the same as civilian models, UNLESS the SKU or contract calls for specific deviations from base (e.g. sights, internal/external coatings, etc). That's not just for P320s, but all current production Sigs. More likely your rep has a fleet of vetted and carefully maintained "T&E" guns (or Sig maintains a pool of same) to make sure T&E guns are the best possible performers when they go out the door.

[TGS]

Of maybe those SKU's indicated models specifically packaged w/ night sights and three magazines (like other manufacturers "LE" guns)?

I guess it would be that simple if they didn't tell students in armorer classes that LEOs should only carry duty guns from LEO SKUs, not commercial, and if SIG didn't use exclusively Mec-Gar mags with LEO guns while commercial guns get a mix of Mec-Gar and lower quality Checkmate mags that are pretty well understood at this point to be problematic in the P320.

[CWM11B]

I wouldn't trust them for several reasons:

1. The company has unethical business practices
2. The head of their LE sales told me in a large group (when pressed) that there is a difference in parts and quality with their .gov/mil/le guns and the commercial offerings
3. I saw one fire when dropped (pulled bullet, primed case from a Speer GD duty round)
4. Sig knew about the issue and silently kept selling them to LE agencies, even after there had been gunshot injuries.
5. Never admitted the problem via a recall. To hell with your "voluntary upgrade"

And I have levied all of my criticism against Sig with a heavy heart. I have several West German 22x guns with thousands of rounds through them. I took a 226 to Roger's school years ago, carried and managed a fleet of about 600 2340s then 2022s (which was a superlative service pistol). The company I dealt with ceased to exist years ago.

Those are my reasons, and mine alone. Plenty disagree and I'm good with that. Plenty of folks buy their products and happily carry them. I'm fine with that too (unless you have a 320 which has not been updated, you are in range of me and have the dropsies). I'm not going to get rid of my old classics, but I'll damn sure not buy one (unless I need a training exemplar) nor recommend them for agency adoption unless and until there is a complete 180 in their corporate culture. Trust is a hard thing to regain once lost.

[BigT]

Or maybe those SKU's indicated models specifically packaged w/ night sights and three magazines (like other manufacturers "LE" guns)?

Nope not with a rifle , or a MK25 which comes with that anyway.

[RevolverRob]

More likely your rep has a fleet of vetted and carefully maintained "T&E" guns (or Sig maintains a pool of same) to make sure T&E guns are the best possible performers when they go out the door.

<Nostalgic Sarcasm>

I long for the good old days - when any old thing off the assembly line was more than acceptable for T&E, because everything was well made.

</Sarcasm>

Seriously though, that should be the quality goal of any manufacturer of anything. That an independent entity can pick up anything and evaluate it. No special SKUs no special deliveries, etc. The firearms world is one of the few where independent testing is still quite rare. Most LE agencies allow Reps to bring in T&E materials. It should not happen this way.

[GJM]

Sample size of one, but my LE-SKU P320 never got CLOSE to 1,000 rounds before it had to go back to the factory, twice, then went down the road to someone else who's more impressed with the Sig name than I am.

I've got an EXTENSIVE list of parts breakages and failures of M17 and M18 pistols in the field, most of which were NOT subjected to thousands of rounds of shooting (or ANY dry fire - God Forbid) before they went TU.

This is the kind of information that is helpful — what year was your 320 manufactured and what were the problems you had to return your pistol for? I would also be curious on the information on M17/18 failures.

Not sure how you define sample size, but as I understand it, Sig sold 2,000 Legions in just the first few days it became available, and a high percentage of those are used in competition with corresponding high round counts. Since then, they have sold a lot more, and the Legion is probably the single most common CO pistol in USPSA these days. There are ten of them I am quite familiar with, as they are being shot by my wife and a small group of friends. None have needed to go back to Sig. Reading Enos, while there are the occasional problems, all in all, they seem to be running.

As to corporate ethics and customer service, while I would never encourage someone to buy a Sig based on their conduct lately, I still remember the same day some years back when I called S&W and Glock. When I reported accuracy problems with my M&P, the rep said that was the first he had heard of that. When I reported reliability issues with a new released Gen 4, the Glock rep said that was the first time he had heard of such a thing, but he would send me a new RSA. HK took just five years to get me a V7 plate into the US, rendering my multiple HK45 pistols not carry-able as I would decock the hammer with my normal firing grip.

[psalms144.1]

George - my X-Carry was a 2018 production. Dead trigger issues initially after disassembly/reassembly, and a variety of extraction/ejection issues.

In the field with issued pistols, lots of magazine-related reliability issues, parts breakages (RSAs, safeties are the two biggies). We've seen one pistol turn into component parts of the FCU on the range (cause still TBD), and have heard of several other LE guns failing spectacularly, including one that had to be literally hammered open after being immersed in silty creek water.

I totally concur that no maker is stink-less - I sold all my Glocks in 2012 after the Gen4 roll out fiasco, but if I had to grab a striker fired 9mm out of the box today, it would be a Gen5 G19. I just don't think, in my heart of hearts, that the P320 is ready for prime time today. In a couple more years, as folks (including LE and military) continue to serve as unpaid beta testers, and all the bugs shake out, I think it will be a strong contender. Of course, that's what I thought about the P250 as well, and we know how that ended up...

Meanwhile, just to be contrarian, I'm carrying a DW Guardian or CCO nowadays, becuz 'Merica!

[GJM]

George - my X-Carry was a 2018 production. Dead trigger issues initially after disassembly/reassembly, and a variety of extraction/ejection issues.

In the field with issued pistols, lots of magazine-related reliability issues, parts breakages (RSAs, safeties are the two biggies). We've seen one pistol turn into component parts of the FCU on the range (cause still TBD), and have heard of several other LE guns failing spectacularly, including one that had to be literally hammered open after being immersed in silty creek water.

I totally concur that no maker is stink-less - I sold all my Glocks in 2012 after the Gen4 roll out fiasco, but if I had to grab a striker fired 9mm out of the box today, it would be a Gen5 G19. I just don't think, in my heart of hearts, that the P320 is ready for prime time today. In a couple more years, as folks (including LE and military) continue to serve as unpaid beta testers, and all the bugs shake out, I think it will be a strong contender. Of course, that's what I thought about the P250 as well, and we know how that ended up...

Meanwhile, just to be contrarian, I'm carrying a DW Guardian or CCO nowadays, becuz 'Merica!

I think you make a great point as to product maturity, and a Glock today is a lot better than a early gen 4, and a M&P is likely a better pistol today. Sig, like many companies, uses us as their beta testers and early adopters take lots of arrows. Of course, there can also be the problem where cost cutters go at things like a post 64 model 70 or the P series pistols.

[Alpha Sierra]

I know military and I assume LE guns have different SKU's which apparently denote a higher(or maybe just an actual)level of QC.

There's probably a dozen reasons why something has a different SKU based on the customer. I've never (in 25 yrs in mfg) seen a different SKU assigned to a product just because it has a higher level of "QC" (another overused, little understood gun forum acronym).

Not saying you're wrong. Just saying it's unlikely you're right.

[CWM11B]

What came of the calls, if I may ask? Your one call may have been the first. When I asked Smith about the accuracy issue in the 9mm, I was told they guaranteed 3"@ 25 yards. The guns did that. When we transitioned to the M&P 9 from the .40, Smith botched the order by not putting an upgraded fire control group in. Two days as after being notified our district sales rep, another territory guy, and the national director of LE sales showed up with parts bins and tool boxes. For two days they went through every single new pistol and replaced the parts that needed. No questions asked, and profuse apologies given, along with the big guy delivering a solid tounge lashing via phonecon to Springfueld.

Contrast with a very good friend and colleague in another agency with the 320. Drop fire denied until he showed them with one of their fielded pistols. Runaround until legal got involved and a threat to drop the gun. Sig replaced every single pistol, but with significant hassle (300+ units). To be fair, they are otherwise happy with the platform. It's not my city, tax dollars, or business so I dont care. I'd have ditched them though.

Second agency nearby had significant issues with delivery and function. I dont know anybody there but my bud does a lot of things with and for them. They got the run around on the drop issue too. Finally came down to top brass, city legal and Sig corporate at the table. Long and short of it, 320s stayed in the agency's holsters only for the time it took 800 G17s to be delivered. Sig was required by contract to take the 320s back.

I'm sure there are guns out there running. I know plenty if folks like them. Maybe they are finally good to go now and kicking ass all over the competition circuit (which I attribute to the shooter, not the gun, regardless of make). But I know Sig cuts corners and denies/lies about issues. I've also noticed a couple of well known industry names were pimping it pretty hard but have gone pretty quiet of late. The original question was over trusting the platform. I dont, nor, frankly, any of their offerings of the last several years. And it is going a lot to change my mind

[Navyguns]

If you put all the sentiments aside, the P320 with the recall upgrades are good to go but I think it is important to get those upgrades performed. One of the recurring themes with the P320 I noticed was that they are accurate pistols.

Now, this is where I add in the emotional sentiments because humans are not exclusively logical. Sig Sauer has done a lot of things to erode people's confidence in their products. Carrying a pistol for protection is serious issue and you have to feel completely confident in your equipment. However, not all emotional based opinions are rational. All my Glock's I feel rock solid about. My Beretta Elite LTT is based on one of the top three most tested and proven pistols in the world. The M&P had been around since 2005 and internally hasn't changed and it's a rock solid pistol. We are in a glut for pistol choices in every configuration you could think of.

If you go with the P320 don't worry about it and make sure you fully inspect the pistol for defects. Especially the barrel crown. Follow firearms safety and you'll be fine.

[KevH]

Would you trust a P320?

Short answer? No

[JonInWA]

Some background-In the 1990s/early 2000s, I owned and used a significant portion of the P-Series offerings-2 P220s (a 9mm and a .45 ACP), 2 P229s, a P228, a Sigpro2340, a P225, a GSR XO and a P210-6. The P229s and Sigpro 2340 were in both .40 and .357 SIG.

Gradually, I drifted away from SIGs and into Glocks. My most heavily used (and preferred) SIG out of the bunch was the P225, but that developed systemic magazine feed lip spread, inducing feed jams when reloading; which after much effort and analysis, SIG advised that the best course of action was to download the magazines by 1-2 rounds (the current P225 apparently uses a magazine modified from the previous P239). SIG was totally supportive, and most of mine had action jobs performed by the Custom Ship, providing superb triggerpulls. Other than the P225 magazine issues, reliability and durability was excellent.

While my GSR XO was one of the earlies of the "Series 2" GSR, possessing all the OEM high grade components (no MIM), I observed the slippery slope SIG speedily went down post 2006 with the GSR/1911 and then the other P-Series guns, substituting increasing amounts of mid-quality MIM components and reportedly decreased QC. Then came the initial P250 debacles, with the gun adopted and then quickly dropped by FAM and the Dutch National Police (although my understanding from p-f members is that the revised P250 was actually a pretty decent gun). Then came the P320; while I don't blame the M17/M18 oddities and kerfluffles on SIG (that burden lies squarely on DoD and the testers/testing protocols), I was pretty incensed over not just the P320 Dropgate, but how 1) SIG knew about the issue(s), fixed the military ones, but knowledgeably , if not in fact deliberately let unmodified ones into the commercial/LEO market stream, and then went into the denial mode and 2) Came up with a half-assed end-user voluntary retro-fit program rather than a full-blown recall.

For the past several years, the only SIG that I felt I could unequivocally recommend was the SP2022 Sigpro, due to it's inherent quality, and continuous QC apparently piggy-backing on French government contract.

Jump to October 2019. I won a NSSF Gearbox-the SIG-Sauer Gearbox contest, which provided me with a P320 RX Compact and a M400 Tread AR15, complete with a heavy number of upgrades from SIG. I decided, thanks to SIGs and NSSFs largesse that I would give these two SIGs a fair and open-minded review. So far, I'm much more impressed than I expected to be, with both weapons.

The P320 has proven to be a flawless pistol to date, although I have a relatively low roundcount on it, around 450 rounds. I'm noticeably and quantifiably shooting better (faster, and almost as accurately) with it than some of my other preferred platforms-primarily doubtlessly due to the Romeo1 RDS, but I'll give the basic gun its due. I'm impressed that the BUIS are not just suppressor height, but with tritium inserts, a nice low-light use feature.

My experiences with the M400 Tread rifle are similar, once I got an improperly assembled bolt carrier assembly issue resolved (the firing pin cotter pin was jammed in and bent, making bolt disassembly impossible and possibly inducing operational issues, but since I discovered it as part of my initial reception inspect/clean/lube protocol and took it to a gunsmith who speedily resolved it, I'll never know if in fact there would have been operational issues). Other than that hiccup, the M400 Tread strikes me as being a high quality, accurate, ergonomic well made and assembled rifle, all the more impressive in that it's a sub-$1K rifle intended to be an entry-level AR15.

So, given my sample size of 1, I would say that yes, I do trust the current P320, and am comfortable carrying it for EDC, duty and IDPA. Mine is an October 2019 production gun, with Italian MecGar magazines.

Best, Jon

[Nephrology]

How do you feel? Or is it better sticking with a more reliable brand like HK (not glock since I live in CT)?

Born and raised in CT. Left shortly after new AWB. I thought about what I would have done if I had stayed. Likely would be rocking G48s/26s and M&P45s. M&P9s for range time. HK is a good alternative, too.

As for SIG, I have a buddy that was an engineer for them. He had lots of horror stories. I would not trust the P320 or any other new SIG product for self-defense, and don't plan to give them any of my money any time soon.

[Runt1122]

Yes, I do trust the 320...it has not given me a reason not to. It has the voluntary upgrade as well, which was handled quickly and efficiently for me. Mine has been absolutely 100% flawless with better accuracy in my hands bone stock than the Gen 4 Glock 19 I used to have. Plus I don’t get the casings on top of my head like the 19 used to give me. As far as Sig’s ethics and in particular Mr. Cohen....I don’t know enough to comment on that. What I do know is that Mr. Glock has not been a perfect angel in his business and personal decisions and most big corporations could be accused of bad ethics at one point or another.

[medmo]

Beretta M9 slides fracturing and breaking. Glock failing DEA frisbee tests with slides coming off the frames and discharging. Now this for Sig. Just saying.

[JDH]

. You can tell by my post count I don't post often (or at all) but I read here frequently. My feeling is, unless you have something important to contribute, keep your mouth shut.

Soon as I starded reading this post I thought Who the hell does this guy think he's not... Stay in yer lane bruh!!

I hope i dont have to say it, but just in case. I'm completely just joking:D




ETA: dont know why the quoted part didn't show as such, sorry.

[Yung]

To answer the opening question only, yes. Like with any other model from any other company, buy two, shoot a couple cases each through both. One for carry, one for practice and training.

For example, even though I was part of the pre-order for the LTT 92 Compacts/Centurions, I'm still currently carrying a full-size because I still haven't finished vetting the new guns yet. That may take a while through to next year since my budget has taken the holiday hit, but that's okay.

I did have a couple of the earlier P320s that had to go through the voluntary. I ended up going to other guns for different reasons, but they were still okay.

[BigT]

There's probably a dozen reasons why something has a different SKU based on the customer. I've never (in 25 yrs in mfg) seen a different SKU assigned to a product just because it has a higher level of "QC" (another overused, little understood gun forum acronym).

Not saying you're wrong. Just saying it's unlikely you're right.


I mean the most likely explanation is that the guy who had the conversations was wrong and the dude on the other side of the world is right.

But maybe its the extra QC step that ensures your P320 Compacts don't have P320 Sub Compact barrels in them. But what would I know.

[BehindBlueI's]

For those who would not trust a 320, I wonder for how many it is because of Sig’s reputation, and for how many it is because they have actual experience shooting a 320 for thousands of rounds?

I don’t like Sig’s business style, but I see my wife’s Legion, and the Legions of my friends, successfully shooting thousands of rounds in a competitive environment.

I don't have thousands of rounds. I do know that they fared poorly in our T&E that ultimately selected Glock. I do know the particular example I shot grouped well but POI was not at POA, although other examples with the exact same supposed set up were. Something like an 8" spread at 25y between various examples for POI vs POA.

I am not saying I wouldn't trust one. I'm saying that for me there's no compelling reason for me to make the experiment to find out.

[LockedBreech]

For my two cents the real sleeper remains the Smith M2.0, which is crazy to me given how much I disliked the loose, slippery 1.0 guns. I've shot a 320 and I fail to see how the 2.0 is its lesser in any way (I guess the chassis thing, but what percentage of end users actually use that) and better RDO support. The 2.0s have actually made me a bit of a Smith fanboy. We'll see how that holds up over long term round counts.

Even as a M2.0 fanboy, though, I have zero issue with agencies choosing Glock, which remains pistol-for-pistol probably the most drama-free wide-issue pistol out there. If I was making an agency level decision, for a few hundred officers, I'd probably choose the Gen5 Glocks, my own personal M2.0 fandom notwithstanding.

[MrInox]

The security arm of the French national railway company just chose the p320 compact in 9mm to replace their ruger sp101s.

[LockedBreech]

The security arm of the French national railway company just chose the p320 compact in 9mm to replace their ruger sp101s.

I wonder what the odds are of those 101s making it to the surplus market...

[Galbraith]

I never trust any firearm right out of the box. I get more confident with it after I have put 500-1000rds through it and push its abilities. I "generally" trust the P320s offered as LE/Military purchase(has specific SKU), or flagship guns like the P320 X5 Legion. Any Sigs outside of that I would give a greater degree of skepticism until I had put over 1000rds through it, detail stripped it, and was satisfied that nothing seemed abnormal.

[JonInWA]

I wonder what the odds are of those 101s making it to the surplus market...

Ruger recently provided brand new ones to the market, 3" with a lanyard loop incorporated into the butt. Best, Jon

[LockedBreech]

Ruger recently provided brand new ones to the market, 3" with a lanyard loop incorporated into the butt. Best, Jon

I'm just a sucker for former police guns of quixotic make. Thanks for the 411 though, neat that's available as a factory option.

Sorry for the thread drift OP.

[Joe in PNG]

I'm in the "trust no gun until it's had a couple of hundred rounds go through, and been through a shooting match" camp.

Personally, I put plastic Sigs in the same bracket as Kimber or Remlin. I'd take a free one, but wouldn't spend money to get one.

[zpelletier]

To answer the opening question only, yes. Like with any other model from any other company, buy two, shoot a couple cases each through both. One for carry, one for practice and training.

For example, even though I was part of the pre-order for the LTT 92 Compacts/Centurions, I'm still currently carrying a full-size because I still haven't finished vetting the new guns yet. That may take a while through to next year since my budget has taken the holiday hit, but that's okay.

I did have a couple of the earlier P320s that had to go through the voluntary. I ended up going to other guns for different reasons, but they were still okay.

I think the standard practice would be to test every gun with a couples cases of ammo, no matter what it is. No company is perfect and if you’re going to trust your life to it you should test it for reliability. But at the same time I don’t think it’s reasonable to drop it hundred times in hundred different ways to see if it will fire when dropped.

[OlongJohnson]

Ruger recently provided brand new ones to the market, 3" with a lanyard loop incorporated into the butt. Best, Jon

If it had the drift-adjustable rear sight that some of the older SP101s have, I'd probably own one already.

[CWM11B]

[QUOTE=zpelletier;959735]I think the standard practice would be to test every gun with a couples cases of ammo, no matter what it is. No company is perfect and if you’re going to trust your life to it you should test it for reliability. But at the same time I don’t think it’s reasonable to drop it hundred times in hundred different ways to see if it will fire when dropped.[/QUOTE

Would you feel the same way if you took a bullet through the leg like the cop in CT did? His got dropped once. The re-creation I saw wasn't dropped nearly 100 times or 100 ways. Like I've said before, I dont care what folks buy or carry. But the emotional attachment to these tools never ceases to amaze me. If my carry gun craps out and the company lies to me about it, or all of a sudden their QC takes a dump, I'll move on to another platform. If Sig had admitted the problem, issued a recall, fixed the issue, and didnt give folks the run around I'd have a positive I've opinion of them because shit does indeed happen. Sig didnt (and doesnt) own up to these situations and hasn't for at least a decade.

[JonInWA]

I get the impression that some companies haven't quite realized the immediacy of the effect of information flow from the internet, or that there are respected forums/sites that truly do have credibility that resonates.

SIG, and with Bruce Gray attaching himself as self-inflicted collateral damage, has fallen victim to that. It's a hard road back, and requires genuinely good products, excellence in the entire manufacturing process, customer support, and transparent honesty and accountability.

Ideally, the P320 issues and hiccups have successfully been identified and systemically and individually fixed. Assuming that's the case, credibility next falls on QC, and on customer support and reputation.

My personal P320 was a fortuitous win from a NSSF contest. My contacts with SIG in its acquisition and subsequent amicable upgrading of my winning with the SIG exec attached as my point of contact were exceptionally pleasant and effective. The SIG executive that I dealt with throughout the process was very knowledgeable, savvy and accommodating; to me, that's a very good sign of corporate health. My personal P320 RX Compact has run impeccably to date, and so far I think it's a very good basic gun and overall package.

As Todd G famously pointed out, EVERY company has warts if you dig deeply enough. Hopefully, SIG has learned; we'll see.

Or. if they're driven by a pure bean-counter mentality, that will eventually come back to bite them. My impression is that the bulk of profits comes from retail purchases, not governmental/LEO contracts, and the retail gun buyer has more potential information for decision-making than ever before.

Best, Jon

[TGS]

My impression is that the bulk of profits comes from retail purchases, not governmental/LEO contracts, and the retail gun buyer has more potential information for decision-making than ever before.

That's a point that Todd had made about government contracts in general. Everyone thinks they're so lucrative, but even the largest government contract possible is still much smaller than the potential of the commercial market. A quick example is the 19X, which sold over 100,000 units in the first 180 days of sales......regardless of Glock losing the MHS contract.

I'm curious how much they've sold on the commercial market to date. The Glock 19X's biggest government contract so far, IIRC, is 104 pistols.

[zpelletier]

Would you feel the same way if you took a bullet through the leg like the cop in CT did? His got dropped once. The re-creation I saw wasn't dropped nearly 100 times or 100 ways. Like I've said before, I dont care what folks buy or carry. But the emotional attachment to these tools never ceases to amaze me. If my carry gun craps out and the company lies to me about it, or all of a sudden their QC takes a dump, I'll move on to another platform. If Sig had admitted the problem, issued a recall, fixed the issue, and didnt give folks the run around I'd have a positive I've opinion of them because shit does indeed happen. Sig didnt (and doesnt) own up to these situations and hasn't for at least a decade.

I think you misunderstood what I meant. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think that most people buy a pistol and take it home and start dropping it to see what happens. I think in general most people trust that the companies producing these guns have done their own testing and are confident in what they are buying. But my original question I guess was more intended to be about trusting SIG as a company than trusting a specific pistol. I feel like SIG isn’t trustworthy and hasn’t fully tested their products before they release them. And when problems did arise they were not forthcoming about it, thus proving that they can’t be trusted.

Do you guys drop your guns over and over to see what happens?

[JonInWA]

My guess is that the G45 has slighter greater potential for LEO sales in the G19X/G45 niche, based simply on the black vs. coyote finish. Additionally, the G19X is self limiting to a degree, in that due to the frontstrap lip (an offshoot of the MHS contract specs) while it can use earlier magazines (and the coyote-colored G19X magazines) with the shorter baseplate front protrusion, it can't use Gen5 magazines-that could be an issue with interchangeability in the future. The G45 (and other Gen5 Glocks) can use both magazine baseplate types.

I suspect that while few contract-specific LEO sales have resulted for the 19X, I'll bet a p-f dollar that it's seen success in being listed as an approved gun for officer private purchase by departments.

Best, Jon

[hiro]

That's a point that Todd had made about government contracts in general. Everyone thinks they're so lucrative, but even the largest government contract possible is still much smaller than the potential of the commercial market. A quick example is the 19X, which sold over 100,000 units in the first 180 days of sales......regardless of Glock losing the MHS contract.

I'm curious how much they've sold on the commercial market to date. The Glock 19X's biggest government contract so far, IIRC, is 104 pistols.

From a commercial point of view, isn't the marketing value of equipping a major Federal or DOD branch part of why they do it? How many 320s have been sold because it's "good enough for the Army"?

I don't know if Id' go as far to say major contracts are loss leaders but there's an element of it.

[hiro]

the retail gun buyer has more potential information for decision-making than ever before.

True, the task tho is sorting the wheat from the chaff. As witnessed in this thread people react differently to the information available. I understand why people wouldn't buy from Sig for the fiasco that was Drop Gate but the idea that any other major corporation is any better I don't get or that a pistol shouldn't be vetted with an appropriate number of rounds.

[LockedBreech]

I suspect that while few contract-specific LEO sales have resulted for the 19X, I'll bet a p-f dollar that it's seen success in being listed as an approved gun for officer private purchase by departments.

Best, Jon

At least 3 of the officers at one of my local agencies carry 19X so I think there's something to that.

[CWM11B]

@zepellitier thanks for the clarification. It did read differently to me.

No one started dropping these things until the discharge reports came out. I was aware of two I incidents before this became public. And when selecting duty pistols, yep, I dropped them, kicked them across pavement, rolled them in mud, spilled sodas and beverages on them and all manner of crap that could be reasonably expected to happen to them once issued to people who aren't dedicated gun handlers and shooters. And I agree with you on sig's handling of this situation 100%.

[zpelletier]

@zepellitier thanks for the clarification. It did read differently to me.

No one started dropping these things until the discharge reports came out. I was aware of two I incidents before this became public. And when selecting duty pistols, yep, I dropped them, kicked them across pavement, rolled them in mud, spilled sodas and beverages on them and all manner of crap that could be reasonably expected to happen to them once issued to people who aren't dedicated gun handlers and shooters. And I agree with you on sig's handling of this situation 100%.

That’s what I mean, there were no drop test videos until there was suspicion of an issue. But I believe people should be able to trust a company and their products to the point that every single person who buys one doesn’t have to do extensive testing like mil/le agencies do because honestly most people won’t Out of curiosity, did you test every single gun that same way? I thought that when guns were tested there were a certain number tested and then if they passed the testing and were selected then more were purchased. For this to be possible, you would have to trust the company making them that each one would be made as well as the test batch. I don’t think SIG is trustworthy in that way.

[CWM11B]

Not every gun, just examples. And yes, you have to trust the company to do the right thing post selection. And like you, I dont trust Sig. And at one point I did, without reservation. That was pre Cohen.

[HCM]

Do you guys drop your guns over and over to see what happens?

I do when somebody pays me to do it

Along those lines if you shoot the P3 20 better than anything else I would trust an individual vetted sample but I don’t trust SIG as a company.

So far the GOV contract P320s I’ve seen have all been good to go but I’ve had light strikes / failures to fire with both an early (first month of production) commercial compact and a recent production 320 X carry.

My Agency requires us to order a DHS specific sku if we want to use a POW 320 on duty. They have also been good to go so far but that is a clue as to potential issues with commercial 320s.

They are allowing us to use commercially purchased p365s and I have seen a couple fail Armorer inspection even though they were purchased via SIGs IOP program.

It’s worth noting that she is pumping out all kinds of hot crap like SAS models without sites but two years on we still have not seen the size small in size large X grip frames that SIG is required to supply us with under the DHS contract. Wow you could points a finger at SIG or at our CO pTR, you would think SIG would want one of their largest non-military customers to be satisfied with their product.

[CanineCombatives]

Milwaukee PD is the latest high profile agency to adopt the P320 for all personnel, help me understand why they are trusting it when none of the posters in this thread do?

[TOTS]

Milwaukee PD is the latest high profile agency to adopt the P320 for all personnel, help me understand why they are trusting it when none of the posters in this thread do?

Im betting it has a large part to do with the price point.

[spinmove_]

Im betting it has a large part to do with the price point.

Definitely this. This is why Glock is as widespread across Law Enforcement agencies. Price. And Glock gives departments a hell of a discount if I’m not mistaken.

[CanineCombatives]

Stop parroting what you read online and seek some real facts, this is a public organization, the selection testing, bidding process and contract award are all publicly accessible.

[JBP55]

Definitely this. This is why Glock is as widespread across Law Enforcement agencies. Price. And Glock gives departments a hell of a discount if I’m not mistaken.

All LEA Pistols sold are discounted. Glock has no monopoly on that.

[El Cid]

Milwaukee PD is the latest high profile agency to adopt the P320 for all personnel, help me understand why they are trusting it when none of the posters in this thread do?

Serious question - do you work for, or are you associated with Sig in any way? Your constant unwavering defense of the company seems odd to me. But maybe you’re just their number one fan?

As for agency purchases I imagine we’re all aware that isn’t always an indicator of a true vetting process. Plenty of instances where the adopted gun is merely the favorite of the chief/sheriff/head FI. Even when agencies have a selection committee, there’s no guarantee you’ll see technically proficient shooters involved. Lots of LE admin types think they know what’s best. They seldom do however.

[CWM11B]

Milwaukee PD is the latest high profile agency to adopt the P320 for all personnel, help me understand why they are trusting it when none of the posters in this thread do?

It's their business what they select, and they have their reasons I'm sure.A lot of agencies buy, issue, or approve Serpa holsters. I'm not going to run out and buy one of them because some large agency did. The FBI tested the 320 and didn't select it. I trust their firearms training unit more than the military or any other municipal agency.

I've laid out why I dont trust them: Personal observation and negative experience with the company (pre 320). If they fixed it, fine by me. If an agency not supported by my my tax dollars wants it, fine by me. If an individual wants to buy them for carry, again, fine by me. With plenty of other choices out there that are as good or better that dont have the fleas this one has or the corporate culture of Sig, I choose not to carry new offerings from them. Not happy that my tax dollars bought them for the military, especially after some conversations I've had with people I'm satisfied have legitimate insight into that selection the rest of us aren't privy to, but there is nothing I can do about that. I'm not a brand loyalist. I do expect honesty. If Sig fessed up and fixed the problem instead of covering it up, I'd be in the "nothing to see here, move along" camp. They didn't. So I dont trust them, which was the question posed by the OP.

[TGS]

Stop parroting what you read online and seek some real facts, this is a public organization, the selection testing, bidding process and contract award are all publicly accessible.

huh?

[HCM]

Milwaukee PD is the latest high profile agency to adopt the P320 for all personnel, help me understand why they are trusting it when none of the posters in this thread do?


Im betting it has a large part to do with the price point.


Definitely this. This is why Glock is as widespread across Law Enforcement agencies. Price. And Glock gives departments a hell of a discount if I’m not mistaken.


All LEA Pistols sold are discounted. Glock has no monopoly on that.

JBP55 is spot on here. All LE Agency pistols are sold discounted. They all cut deals on price, trade ins on guns and ammo etc. and now that everyone else has polymer framed striker guns Glock has no monopoly on low price.

The SIG 320 has done well in several large agency tests. It passed the testing by the TX DPS, US ICE and US CBP. It was also the last competitor to Glock in the FBIs testing. Although CBP wound up adopting the Glock, the fact that the P320 was the only other gun to pass CBPs testing, which was conducted by an outside lab to minimize the biases El Cid referred to is significant. It proves the current P320, properly executed, is a viable design.

The modular pistol concept and the fact it avoids the Glock “Achilles heel” of pulling the trigger to disassembled make it attractive to Agencies. Especially those who are anti Glock.

The question is not whether the current P320 a viable design when properly executed, but rather, do we trust SIG to properly execute it ?

[spinmove_]

All LEA Pistols sold are discounted. Glock has no monopoly on that.

I never said other manufacturers didn’t sell at a discount. My understanding, from reading the posts of the people in the know here, is that due to Glock’s low manufacturing costs, they can offer some pretty deep discounts which make them attractive. But, given that I don’t have first hand knowledge of that, I fully admit that I’m stepping out of my lane. I’ll cease and desist and, if I’m incorrect, please feel free to correct me.

[BehindBlueI's]

I never said other manufacturers didn’t sell at a discount. My understanding, from reading the posts of the people in the know here, is that due to Glock’s low manufacturing costs, they can offer some pretty deep discounts which make them attractive.

Glock doesn't have any lock on that these days. The bid is usually to take all the old guns at $X value, then provide all new guns at $Z-$X. For us, officers have the option of buying their gun at $X as well since it's a wash for the department. We write a check and the gun takes a little trip but ends up back at a local FFL for us to do the transfer. Sig threw in new duty leather for the Indiana State Police when they switched from Glock 21s to Sig P227s. I don't know what ISP paid per unit but I have a good idea of what new leather costs and doubt Sig made much of a profit on that. They did get to claim a large contract for the then-new P227s, though. Some speculate that these early contracts can be loss leaders for the advertising value.

[Rex G]

I really like the look and feel of some of the never P320s, like the X-Compact. However, I feel like SIG is just one problem after another with these guns. It just seems like there’s some issues popping up all the time, and maybe SIG handles them well, but I don’t want to be a test dummy with the tools I trust my life to. How do you feel? Or is it better sticking with a more reliable brand like HK (not glock since I live in CT)?

How do I feel? Well, I feel like having a cup of coffee. Oh, this is a pistol forum; OK, uh, SIG? Well, with so many other good choices, I think I’d rather trust another product.

My personally-purchased 2004-manufactured P229 DAK, carried as a duty pistol 2004-2015, did well. Two SAS (factory carry-beveled) non-railed DAK P229 pistols, that I added for better off-the-clock concealability, did well. I stopped using them because .40 muzzle flip becoming too much for my aging hands, so I switched to a lower-bore-axis system. A P220, personally-purchased in 1991, and carried on duty 1991-1993, also did well, except for the heel-clip magazine retention device snagging on things, allowing a partial mag drop, about four times. So, I have trusted SIG in the past. Not generally being a collector, for the sake of collecting, I have only kept the P229R DAK that rode so long in my duty rig. I am unlikely to shoot it again, unless I convert it to a kinder, gentler cartridge. Having said that, I trust this one SIG pistol, now, as much as I ever did.

One could say that I was a SIG “fan,” in the past, and I would not dispute that.

It has been reported, by people I trust, that SIG had, and is having, some significant problems. A variety of problems. Based upon an abundance of caution, I would not spend money on anything SIG, in 2019, and, perhaps, never again.

Fully-cocked strikers give me an uneasy feeling. When I started handgunning, in the early Eighties, striker-fired handguns were considered unsafe for carry, unless carried in Condition Three. Glocks popularized striker-fired carry guns, but the Glock striker is not fully-cocked, as the pistol rides in one’s holster. The user finishes cocking the striker, during the trigger pull. The little tab on the face of the Glock trigger adds a further prevention to the possibility of inertia-firing. I trust a Glock to be drop-safe. I understand that the OP is in a non-Glock state, so am not recommending Glock, but simply using an example with which I am familiar.

That is how I “feel.”

[call_me_ski]

The Sig makes the short list of striker fired guns I would trust. I was given a choice between a Gen 5 Glock, SW MP9 2.0 and a P320. I chose a Glock but a majority of my coworkers chose Sig. No one went with SW. As expected there were few problems across the board.

I am partial to the MCX and think Sig has a winner on their hands despite my previous reservations with the company and leadership. They are an industry leader and thousands of professionals rely on their products and out side of some small bobbles that every company experiences, their professional products seem to work. Just ignore their gimmicky Spartan P238 SAS bullshit and their optics line.

[zaitcev]

Milwaukee PD is the latest high profile agency to adopt the P320 for all personnel, help me understand why they are trusting it when none of the posters in this thread do?

The department had their selection criteria, and a certain product satisfies them. Trust does not enter the process. Only the mean number of shots fired before failure and the tests passing (including drop tests).

This whole topic is just absurd. Do I trust my Glocks? Absolutely not. They are mechanical devices that can fail. There's only a probability of that failure with a certain use.

[358156hp]

I trust my P320 CC, it has always worked perfectly for me. I went the "responsible gunowner" route and sent it in for the update, even though I didn't believe it needed it. The drop issue could only be duplicated by making a special sling in order to suspend the pistol at just the right angle, at the right height in order to work. There are still a large number of guns out there that are not drop safe because they don't have a firing pin block, but few people seem to notice that little tidbit. Series 70 1911s come to mind first. Put an older S&W revolver in the same sling the P320 is being crucified on and do the same thing. Even some of the later S&Ws with the firing pin block can fire because that flimsy little piece of mild steel generously called a hammer block can break, and some of them actually have broken. BTW, I also own and have owned a large number of the two examples I mentioned, and will continue to buy as many of them as I can afford. They're machines, none of them can be infallible, and none of them will ever be infallible.

The best safety of all is between our ears.

Now, the part about SIG management being a bunch of greedy asses. Okay, you got me there...:D, aren't they all?

[CWM11B]

... The drop issue could only be duplicated by making a special sling in order to suspend the pistol at just the right angle, at the right height in order to work...l?

Where did you get this information? I only ask because it is flat out wrong. I've seen it done with a drop on to concrete from below shoulder height.

[JAD]

The drop issue could only be duplicated by making a special sling in order to suspend the pistol at just the right angle, at the right height in order to work.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, that’s factually incorrect. Furthermore, the issue came to light because an officer was injured.


Series 70 1911s come to mind first.
What is important to me about the way the 320 fails is that it goes off when the rear of the slide is struck. If that’s from a drop, under normal circumstances that means the muzzle is pointed at the user. That’s why the officer was injured. With an S70, the gun will go off (if it has a steel firing pin and a weak fp spring) if it is dropped on its muzzle. While that’s not safe, it’s a lot better.



The best safety of all is between our ears.

Which includes making good choices. If SIG hasn’t yet admitted that they made and sold a gun with a deadly defect, what else aren’t they telling us? Are there really no better choices?

[HCM]

Where did you get this information? I only ask because it is flat out wrong. I've seen it done with a drop on to concrete from below shoulder height.

This ^^^^.

[BehindBlueI's]

There are still a large number of guns out there that are not drop safe because they don't have a firing pin block, but few people seem to notice that little tidbit. Series 70 1911s come to mind first. Put an older S&W revolver in the same sling the P320 is being crucified on and do the same thing. Even some of the later S&Ws with the firing pin block can fire because that flimsy little piece of mild steel generously called a hammer block can break, and some of them actually have broken. BTW, I also own and have owned a large number of the two examples I mentioned, and will continue to buy as many of them as I can afford. They're machines, none of them can be infallible, and none of them will ever be infallible.

The best safety of all is between our ears.

Now, the part about SIG management being a bunch of greedy asses. Okay, you got me there...:D, aren't they all?

Not all guns are drop safe so we should be satisfied choosing a non-drop safe gun? Pass. I'll go ahead and choose one of the myriad drop safe options.

You're correct the best safety is between our ears. Part of that is confronting the fact we are not infallible. I can drop things. Ask my last cell phone.

I've no idea where you're getting this sling information from. Several real world injuries have resulted from the pre-"voluntary upgrade" guns, including some Sig knew about well before it became public.

[spinmove_]

I trust my P320 CC, it has always worked perfectly for me. I went the "responsible gunowner" route and sent it in for the update, even though I didn't believe it needed it. The drop issue could only be duplicated by making a special sling in order to suspend the pistol at just the right angle, at the right height in order to work. There are still a large number of guns out there that are not drop safe because they don't have a firing pin block, but few people seem to notice that little tidbit. Series 70 1911s come to mind first. Put an older S&W revolver in the same sling the P320 is being crucified on and do the same thing. Even some of the later S&Ws with the firing pin block can fire because that flimsy little piece of mild steel generously called a hammer block can break, and some of them actually have broken. BTW, I also own and have owned a large number of the two examples I mentioned, and will continue to buy as many of them as I can afford. They're machines, none of them can be infallible, and none of them will ever be infallible.

The best safety of all is between our ears.

Now, the part about SIG management being a bunch of greedy asses. Okay, you got me there...:D, aren't they all?

In order to get a Series 70 1911 to fail as spectacularly as a Pre-voluntary upgrade P320, more parts have to mechanically fail. Can it happen? Sure, but it’s quite a bit less likely.

I still think that a thumb safety-less P320 needs at least a trigger safety and I honestly would prefer both on that platform. So I’ll use the safety between my ears to make the better decision to buy, maintain, and carry something else.

[Beat Trash]

All LEA Pistols sold are discounted. Glock has no monopoly on that.

Yep.

Some manufacturers (not Glock) have even been know to do a 1 for 1 swap of old pistols for new pistols, aka: free guns just so they don’t loose that agency’s contract.

[358156hp]

Where did you get this information? I only ask because it is flat out wrong. I've seen it done with a drop on to concrete from below shoulder height.

Watching Outdoors videos. They showed it quite clearly. One point they made was that the rear of the frame and the rear of the slide had to hit simultaneously.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ch7si_VQsGA

[358156hp]

In order to get a Series 70 1911 to fail as spectacularly as a Pre-voluntary upgrade P320, more parts have to mechanically fail. Can it happen? Sure, but it’s quite a bit less likely.

I still think that a thumb safety-less P320 needs at least a trigger safety and I honestly would prefer both on that platform. So I’ll use the safety between my ears to make the better decision to buy, maintain, and carry something else.

Drop it so it strikes the ground muzzle first. No firing pin block in the Series 70s, but Colt has been trashed ever since they changed over to the Series 80 with a firing pin block. So now they offer both.

One suggested solution was to go to a lightweight firing pin and a heavier firing pin spring.

[spinmove_]

Drop it so it strikes the ground muzzle first. No firing pin block in the Series 70s, but Colt has been trashed ever since they changed over to the Series 80 with a firing pin block. So now they offer both.

One suggested solution was to go to a lightweight firing pin and a heavier firing pin spring.

When you drop a thing, it’s rare that you get to choose how it lands. That said, if it does strike the muzzle, a lightweight firing pin and heavier firing pin spring does strike me as a better than nothing.

I’m more concerned with when the gun lands muzzle up and/or pointed at something it shouldn’t be. The grip safety and half-cock notch should help a ton there. If the thumb safety is also engaged, that can’t hurt.

[HopetonBrown]

Watching Outdoors videos. They showed it quite clearly. One point they made was that the rear of the frame and the rear of the slide had to hit simultaneously.


I believe he is talking about your assertion:


The drop issue could only be duplicated by making a special sling in order to suspend the pistol at just the right angle, at the right height in order to work.

[CWM11B]

Yeah, saw that vid when it came out. Where is the special sling required to replicate the drop issue?

[Zman001]

I mean, a duty holster and belt could be seen as a "sling" i suppose...

[M2CattleCo]

When you drop a thing, it’s rare that you get to choose how it lands. That said, if it does strike the muzzle, a lightweight firing pin and heavier firing pin spring does strike me as a better than nothing.

I’m more concerned with when the gun lands muzzle up and/or pointed at something it shouldn’t be. The grip safety and half-cock notch should help a ton there. If the thumb safety is also engaged, that can’t hurt.


1911 has an inertial firing pin with a spring holding it back. With a grip safety blocking the triggers rearward movement, and the thumb safety blocking the sear, it would literally require smashing the gun until you broke multiple parts to make it fire with the muzzle up.

[spinmove_]

1911 has an inertial firing pin with a spring holding it back. With a grip safety blocking the triggers rearward movement, and the thumb safety blocking the sear, it would literally require smashing the gun until you broke multiple parts to make it fire with the muzzle up.

Yeah, I thought I remembered reading something along those lines somewhere else on this forum because I literally asked that question before, but couldn’t remember all the specific mechanics at the time of my reply. Thank you.

But yes, essentially you’d have to have multiple hardware failures simultaneously to get the same issue you’d see with a P320 pre-“Voluntary Upgrade”. Can it happen? I suppose. But you’d have to be so ridiculously negligent with maintaining that gun that it would literally be the end users fault. Unless of course that happened with a relatively new unit, then I’d say it more than qualifies as a “lemon”.

[Trooper224]

You expect a pistol design over a hundred years old, like the 1911, that was created when they were still figuring basic stuff out, to have a few quirks. You don't expect that from a new design made at the end of the second decade of the 21st century. 1911 v. P320 isn't a valid comparison in any form.

[M2CattleCo]

Exactly.

It's almost 2020.


If it uses the Browning action and a cartridge that's 100 years old, it had damn well be perfect and better than the last one they made. At a minimum.

[Clusterfrack]

Where did you get this information? I only ask because it is flat out wrong. I've seen it done with a drop on to concrete from below shoulder height.

I was easily able to make my 320s fire primed cases by dropping them 24” on carpeted concrete.

[cornstalker]

I was easily able to make my 320s fire primed cases by dropping them 24” on carpeted concrete.

Including the P320c post upgrade model?

[Clusterfrack]

Including the P320c post upgrade model?

No. Definitely not! Only the pre-upgrade ones.

[Doc_Glock]

I was easily able to make my 320s fire primed cases by dropping them 24” on carpeted concrete.


1.8M, Stall mat.


https://youtu.be/7kqlH2kdxsI

[Clusterfrack]

1.8M, Stall mat.


Yep. It's easy once you know the trick.

That was the end of 320s for me, and I switched to CZs for competition and carry--at significant financial cost. I find the CZs suit me better anyway, so at least that was a good outcome.

[Vista461]

Milwaukee PD is the latest high profile agency to adopt the P320 for all personnel, help me understand why they are trusting it when none of the posters in this thread do?

I’m glad they did, I bought one of their trade in M&P 40 with bright night sights, not much finish wear, talon grips, and a decent reset for $279. Lol.

[cornstalker]

1.8M, Stall mat.


https://youtu.be/7kqlH2kdxsI

Sorry to sound like a broken record...

Was that also a pre-upgrade gun?

[CWM11B]

Who cares? Sig KNOWINGLY put guns that had this flaw in the holsters and hands of law enforcement and private citizens. This was discovered in the MHS trials. An HONORABLE company would not have let a known product with a potentially DEADLY defect be released on the market. The fact that they did tells me they are morally bankrupt.

If this had been any other product, would there be such tolerance or excuses? Until Cohen and everyone who thinks like him is gone and the company fumigated to remove this mindset, they are a solid NFE for me.

[cornstalker]

Who cares?

Well, I do. My interest has nothing to do with protecting Sig or justifying what they did, and my motivation for asking is purely selfish.

[CWM11B]

Got you. I'm pretty sure I understand your motivation. If it's what I think it is, I'd be looking for a trade to another platform. That, or if I had an upgraded one, I'd buy a kinetic bullet puller and satisfy myself my sample was good to go.

[358156hp]

I mean, a duty holster and belt could be seen as a "sling" i suppose...

:D That's pretty good... I originally thought the Omaha video was the one made by a guy who made a special harness out of cord so he could drop his SIG the exact same way every time so it would go off. I will search for that video, and I should be able to find it, but everybody and their parakeets started making P320 drop videos about that time. I'll post it when I find it. The harness thingamajig was actually the first video I saw on the subject and I erroneously credited it to the first Omaha video. I should have said this when I added the video to my post.

[CWM11B]

And all those "parakeet" (parroted, perhaps?) videos, plus the first hand observations of members here, negate your assertion that one needs some Rube Goldberg contraption to produce a drop fire.

[BK14]

Got you. I'm pretty sure I understand your motivation. If it's what I think it is, I'd be looking for a trade to another platform. That, or if I had an upgraded one, I'd buy a kinetic bullet puller and satisfy myself my sample was good to go.


For the sake of us that don’t get the option to sell certain guns due to work frowning on selling gov property, can you clarify if this is a pre or post modification gun?

[CWM11B]

Beats me. Not my video. I took cornstalker's reason for asking as that he had a post modification gun. If I was required to carry one, I would make sure it had the "upgrade" and I would drop the hell out of it with primed cases from my carry ammo. The one I saw was pre modified. Fortunately for me, I get to choose what I carry these days. And it isn't going to be a Sig made during the Cohen era.

[Doc_Glock]

Sorry to sound like a broken record...

Was that also a pre-upgrade gun?


Yes. It would not do that post repair.

[HCM]

:D That's pretty good... I originally thought the Omaha video was the one made by a guy who made a special harness out of cord so he could drop his SIG the exact same way every time so it would go off. I will search for that video, and I should be able to find it, but everybody and their parakeets started making P320 drop videos about that time. I'll post it when I find it. The harness thingamajig was actually the first video I saw on the subject and I erroneously credited it to the first Omaha video. I should have said this when I added the video to my post.

There were known issues and warning signs about the P320’s In the lawn Forssman community due to issues with weapons being dropped on firing range is during training. What really broke the story was the Connecticut SWAT cop who dropped a duty belt containing a loaded SIG P320 while loading gear into his vehicle after training. The holstered gun discharged striking him in the knee at an upward angle. After months of unsuccessfully Attempting to settle with Zac privately the Connecticut cop and his attorney filed suit in federal court.

This turned out to be the first of four known instances of dropped original design P320’s going off including one other that resulted in injury to an LEO.

All the Internet video drama b******t came later. The video you were talking about with a sling contraption to control the angle at which a dropped pistol strikes was actually produced and released by SIG later in an attempt to minimize the issue.

Your argument that the drop safety issue with the original Sigg P320 design was some sort of fake issue or parlor trick is horseshit.

As to your earlier comments about not worrying about a drop safe gun because of “safety being between your ears” If you have never dropped a handgun, fallen with a handgun in your hand or been in a physical altercation with a handgun in your hand then maybe you don’t have the practical experience to be commenting on these matters.

[John Hearne]

Yes, every day.

[ddown]

If you look at the complexity of a P320 FCU and slide components. Compared to any other striker Fired gun it's insanely complex. Good luck with long term environmental survival as the size and tolerance are far above anything else. A Glock, Beretta APX, and many others went for reduced components and bigger parts to aid in reliability long term.

[kcevans]

WOW. What I find amazing is the utter hate for a firearm and a company most on here have not experienced any issue with. This reminds me of the Beretta PX4 back around 4 to 5 years ago when the majority of the post on this form was hate concerning the design. I remember posting about how happy I was with the two I had and how well they were performing only to be told the design was junk and that I had better carry a rubber mallet for when they would seize up.

It was only after Mr. Langdon began testing and discussing the PX4 that all the hate vanished. So how long before some well know writer or competitor begins working with the P320 that everyone here falls in love with the design.

[LockedBreech]

WOW. What I find amazing is the utter hate for a firearm and a company most on here have not experienced any issue with. This reminds me of the Beretta PX4 back around 4 to 5 years ago when the majority of the post on this form was hate concerning the design. I remember posting about how happy I was with the two I had and how well they were performing only to be told the design was junk and that I had better carry a rubber mallet for when they would seize up.

It was only after Mr. Langdon began testing and discussing the PX4 that all the hate vanished. So how long before some well know writer or competitor begins working with the P320 that everyone here falls in love with the design.

The big difference is that Beretta’s guns never fired when they were dropped, and Beretta didn’t then try to hush that up and keep selling non-drop-safe firearms to end users including entire law enforcement agencies. And sell less reliable magazines to non-LE users. And similar shady practice.

PF is a levelheaded forum, and evidence based. We didn’t all wake up deciding to hate the P320 mindlessly. In fact, in the midst of the P320 controversy I purchased an SP2022 because it’s a reliable, quality controlled design.

It’s very easy to dismiss the skepticism as “Haters n’ Fanboys” but Sig themselves have created this controversy through continuing corner cutting and corporate decision making that has lost sight of the end goal of delivering a reliable, safe service weapon. When they turn back from that, I be more than willing to put my money down again. But there’s a reason I once owned 6 Sigs and now own 1, and it ain’t because I’m a hater.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Alpha Sierra]

If you look at the complexity of a P320 FCU and slide components. Compared to any other striker Fired gun it's insanely complex. Good luck with long term environmental survival as the size and tolerance are far above anything else. A Glock, Beretta APX, and many others went for reduced components and bigger parts to aid in reliability long term.

Is this a professional assessment or a layman's opinion?

[kcevans]

The big difference is that Beretta’s guns never fired when they were dropped, and Beretta didn’t then try to hush that up and keep selling non-drop-safe firearms to end users including entire law enforcement agencies. And sell less reliable magazines to non-LE users. And similar shady practice.

PF is a levelheaded forum, and evidence based. We didn’t all wake up deciding to hate the P320 mindlessly. In fact, in the midst of the P320 controversy I purchased an SP2022 because it’s a reliable, quality controlled design.

It’s very easy to dismiss the skepticism as “Haters n’ Fanboys” but Sig themselves have created this controversy through continuing corner cutting and corporate decision making that has lost sight of the end goal of delivering a reliable, safe service weapon. When they turn back from that, I be more than willing to put my money down again. But there’s a reason I once owned 6 Sigs and now own 1, and it ain’t because I’m a hater.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Has Sig corrected the issue with firearms discharging when being dropped?
Has Sig corrected the magazine concerns?

I would like to know because I have been considering purchasing one.

As far as fact base, the PX4 hate that was going on several years ago had no fact but just several posters posting about what they had heard from their brother's friends cousins brother in laws shooting friend.

I'm not saying Sig did not have concerns with product quality concerning the P320 line just the fact most if the haters are just haters not becasue of direct knowledge only just what they heard or read on the internet.

[pangloss]

CDNN has had a bunch of P320s lately, and there's no way I'd trust one of those pistols. A newer current production pistol would be a maybe for me. However, with so many other good striker fired pistols on the market, what's the point in chancing it?

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using Tapatalk

[WobblyPossum]

Has Sig corrected the issue with firearms discharging when being dropped?
Has Sig corrected the magazine concerns?


Sig has corrected the drop fire issue in new production guns and guns sent back to the factory for the fix. There are probably many old-stock guns at distributors and dealers that haven’t been fixed though. Same with guns already purchased by people who never heard about the fix.

As far as I know, Sig still recommends that only the “Made in Italy” mags are used for carry/duty and the “Made in USA” mags shouldn’t be.

A newly produced P320 will probably work just fine but basically everything Sig has done as a company regarding this pistol has left a really bad taste in my mouth. I won’t carry one as long as I’m given the option not to. If the option is taken away from me, then I’ll grudgingly carry one.

[DocGKR]

"Is this a professional assessment or a layman's opinion?"

The Sig Armorer Course recommendations regarding FCS maintenance and repair are not confidence inspiring in this regard.

For that matter, neither were the results of the MHS testing nor some real world issues that have cropped up, at least one of which I believe CWM11B is aware of....

[GJM]

Here is my take. Sig, at one point, made fantastic quality P series pistols. The Glock, and other polymer pistols, put Sig at a price disadvantage, and Sig tried to compete by cheapening the P series. That didn’t go well, because the quality of the P series pistols suffered, and these pistols, even cheapened, were still too expensive to comepete with strikers. Sig’s polymer DA/SA pistols were pretty good, but the market wanted strikers. The 250 intro didn’t go well. All of that, caused people through direct experience, or from what they learned through whatever predated the “gun internet” to sour (sorry) on Sig. Sig’s CEO became a controversial figure, who was easy to dislike.

Sig was trying to survive, and that caused them to innovate. Without the luxury of other successful product lines to allow them to be patient, they pushed a number of “Gen 1” products out the door, like the 320 and MPX, using customers as their beta testers. The products have gotten a lot better, but early adopters got burned. Either through oversight or willful negligence, the 320 had a problem where it would fire when dropped at a certain angle. Sig certainly learned of it before the “collective we,” but it is unclear whether they tried to hide behind “drop safe per industry standards,” or hoped the problem was isolated enough they could slide through it.

As to the 320 design, my wife and many friends are shooting the crap out of them in daily or nearly daily sessions as USPSA CO pistols. Other than needing a periodic spray cleaning of the FCU, there is no trend of problems with them. The latest Gen MPX is much better. The current 365 and 365 XL pistols are mostly good. The Sig optics are still a work in process, but in fairness so is most every other red dot product. The Cross rifle is very interesting.

Sig is an easy company to hate, especially by folks that are not using and enjoying their products. Most people using Sig firearms are less vocal than those hating on Sig.

[Will Fennell]

SIG aside,
Reading this thread makes me trust my 1911's, BHP's and Beretta 92's much more!

YMMV,

Will

[tlong17]

Here is my take. Sig, at one point, made fantastic quality P series pistols. The Glock, and other polymer pistols, put Sig at a price disadvantage, and Sig tried to compete by cheapening the P series. That didn’t go well, because the quality of the P series pistols suffered, and these pistols, even cheapened, were still too expensive to comepete with strikers. Sig’s polymer DA/SA pistols were pretty good, but the market wanted strikers. The 250 intro didn’t go well. All of that, caused people through direct experience, or from what they learned through whatever predated the “gun internet” to sour (sorry) on Sig. Sig’s CEO became a controversial figure, who was easy to dislike.

Sig was trying to survive, and that caused them to innovate. Without the luxury of other successful product lines to allow them to be patient, they pushed a number of “Gen 1” products out the door, like the 320 and MPX, using customers as their beta testers. The products have gotten a lot better, but early adopters got burned. Either through oversight or willful negligence, the 320 had a problem where it would fire when dropped at a certain angle. Sig certainly learned of it before the “collective we,” but it is unclear whether they tried to hide behind “drop safe per industry standards,” or hoped the problem was isolated enough they could slide through it.

As to the 320 design, my wife and many friends are shooting the crap out of them in daily or nearly daily sessions as USPSA CO pistols. Other than needing a periodic spray cleaning of the FCU, there is no trend of problems with them. The latest Gen MPX is much better. The current 365 and 365 XL pistols are mostly good. The Sig optics are still a work in process, but in fairness so is most every other red dot product. The Cross rifle is very interesting.

Sig is an easy company to hate, especially by folks that are not using and enjoying their products. Most people using Sig firearms are less vocal than those hating on Sig.

Great post. While not shooting them daily, more like weekly, I am in the camp of those using the products and don't see any problems in my use of them. At the same time, I can certainly admit that Sig is not perfect either.

[HopetonBrown]

As far as fact base, the PX4 hate that was going on several years ago had no fact but just several posters posting about what they had heard from their brother's friends cousins brother in laws shooting friend.



The founder of this forum reporting back from training with RCMPs is not "brother's friends cousins brother in laws shooting friend."


mostif the haters are just haters becasue of direct knowledge only just what they heard or read on the internet.

Fools say that they learn by experience. I prefer to profit by others experience. -Otto Von Bismark

[HCM]

Has Sig corrected the issue with firearms discharging when being dropped?
Has Sig corrected the magazine concerns?

I would like to know because I have been considering purchasing one.

As far as fact base, the PX4 hate that was going on several years ago had no fact but just several posters posting about what they had heard from their brother's friends cousins brother in laws shooting friend.

I'm not saying Sig did not have concerns with product quality concerning the P320 line just the fact most if the haters are just haters not becasue of direct knowledge only just what they heard or read on the internet.

Early PX4s had issues. Period. We had posters here whose LE agencies issued the PX4 and reported from first hand experience and people who conducted training for agencies that issued them.

Companies make inline changes all the time. The PX4, (or insert model here) you buy today may, or may not be the same as an example from 10 years ago.

Another factor is the PX4’s rotating barrel lock up requires a unique lubrication procedure for best results.

Having tried a couple of PX4, including a Langdon model I still hate them despite being a big 92 fan.

As for the P320, SIG has “fixed” the drop safety issue and the issue with magazines disassembling if dropped loaded or partially loaded. The new mags have a square, rather than round take down hole in the base pad.

The SIG P320 design, when properly executed, is safe, accurate and reliable.

Now, SIG continued selling non drop safe guns for more than 6 months after they knew about and had engineered a fix for the drop safe issue. It took a federal lawsuit for them to acknowledge there was a problem.

They also have both US and Italian made mags but only recommend the Italian mags for Duty use.

Thus the question is not has the design been corrected ? It has, but rather, do you trust SIG to execute it properly ?

[HCM]

The founder of this forum reporting back from training with RCMPs is not "brother's friends cousins brother in laws shooting friend."



Fools say that they learn by experience. I prefer to profit by others experience. -Otto Von Bismark

CBSA (Canadian Border Services Agency) rather than RCMP. Specifically PX4 DAO’s in .40. Todd was not a the only source for the issues CBSA experienced.

Companies don’t like to advertise inline changes but they are common. Though I have thus far chosen to exercise my option to stick with Glock, the P320s my Agency currently issue are significantly more refined than the first 320 I bought in 2014.

[MrInox]

The founder of this forum reporting back from training with RCMPs is not "brother's friends cousins brother in laws shooting friend."



Fools say that they learn by experience. I prefer to profit by others experience. -Otto Von Bismark




The RCMP has never been issued PX4s (they still carry 5906s). The Canadian customs and border agents were.....

[zpelletier]

I think the issues stem from SIGs actions causing a lack of trust in the company itself. Issues with new products isn’t the end of the world, I think the P320 is an interesting idea and I think could be a great firearm, I just don’t trust SIGs quality control to continuously produce reliable pistols.

[Bucky]

Just remember that most here don't really appreciate Sig and have been long-time users of other platforms (Glock, HK, Berretta DA/SA, etc.) and may have a confirmation bias they may not be aware of, regardless of how much they try to say otherwise.

It should also be noted there are several long time Sig fans, “classic Sig’s” (P226, 228/9, etc), that are also less than pleased with Sig’s current offerings.

[Bucky]

Even as a M2.0 fanboy, though, I have zero issue with agencies choosing Glock, which remains pistol-for-pistol probably the most drama-free wide-issue pistol out there. If I was making an agency level decision, for a few hundred officers, I'd probably choose the Gen5 Glocks, my own personal M2.0 fandom notwithstanding.

Kabooms with factory ammo, issues with rail mounted lights on .40s, weak ejection on early Gen 4 9mms, frisbee test fail, early issues with NYC guns which included one that would fire when the slide was dropped. Seems Glock has had quite a fair share of drama.

For the record, not a Glock hater and frequently carry one.

My official answer to the initial question, is the same I’d give all guns, not at first. For example, I wouldn’t trust an unknown 19, but I’d trust MY 19 because it’s been vetted by me.

[Alpha Sierra]

Kabooms with factory ammo, issues with rail mounted lights on .40s, weak ejection on early Gen 4 9mms, frisbee test fail, early issues with NYC guns which included one that would fire when the slide was dropped. Seems Glock has had quite a fair share of drama.

It's amazing how many forget all of Glock's mistakes.

[newyork]

Are the majority of the 320 mags Italian? Is there a way to differentiate when buying? Are they offered in standard and neutered capacities?

Are Sigs classic line suffering lately?

[ddown]

Is this a professional assessment or a layman's opinion?

I guess Panama, three tours Iraq, Afghanistan 26 years total service. I am not a Laymen but expert at what GIs will do or attempt to do to a gun. And I owned 2 Sig P320s that both required repair at the mothership So not just an opinion. Compare the Myriad # of parts in FCU and slide remember P320 was designed to fit a 250 frame. Not design FCU then the gun.

[kcevans]

Early PX4s had issues. Period. We had posters here whose LE agencies issued the PX4 and reported from first hand experience and people who conducted training for agencies that issued them.

Companies make inline changes all the time. The PX4, (or insert model here) you buy today may, or may not be the same as an example from 10 years ago.

Another factor is the PX4’s rotating barrel lock up requires a unique lubrication procedure for best results.

Having tried a couple of PX4, including a Langdon model I still hate them despite being a big 92 fan.

As for the P320, SIG has “fixed” the drop safety issue and the issue with magazines disassembling if dropped loaded or partially loaded. The new mags have a square, rather than round take down hole in the base pad.

The SIG P320 design, when properly executed, is safe, accurate and reliable.

Now, SIG continued selling non drop safe guns for more than 6 months after they knew about and had engineered a fix for the drop safe issue. It took a federal lawsuit for them to acknowledge there was a problem.

They also have both US and Italian made mags but only recommend the Italian mags for Duty use.

Thus the question is not has the design been corrected ? It has, but rather, do you trust SIG to execute it properly ?


And to my point, 99.0% of the negative postings come from posters who have NEVER had any experience with what is being discussed, just hear say. Personal choice is subjective and we all must find what we like and what works for us.

[TeflonDon]

There are both valid concerns and reasons NOT two trust Sig and the P320, and an argument can be made for why you currently can trust them.. The solution is simple. If you trust them, buy one and stop worrying about what others think. If you don't trust them, buy a Beretta APX. Me personally, I'm more fond of the APX. The P320 never appealed to me, and even if the P320 is fixed now, I don't like the way the company handled the situation.

[HCM]

And to my point, 99.0% of the negative postings come from posters who have NEVER had any experience with what is being discussed, just hear say. Personal choice is subjective and we all must find what we like and what works for us.

First hand reports from the founder of this forum and a firearms instructor for an agency that issues a particular gun or not hearsay.

Maybe other places but on PF you have 1) people who actually shoot and 2) people who do this for a living. Along those lines There is a difference between personal choice and objective choice of weapons for everyone in an organization. We have several people here including myself who have experience with the latter. Unfortunately not all information from professional sources can be cited or shared publicly. Issues with the SIG P320 not being dropped safe Were known in certain circles prior to it going public but could not be disclosed due to NDA.

Not everyone has the option of finding what works for them. Many people are issued or mandated to use a particular handgun and have to make it work. However, that assumes a handgun that has passed objective testing to establish mechanical accuracy and reliability.

It works for me it’s fine when it’s only your ass on the line. If I have to depend on you as part of a team then you overlooking the flaws of your pet handgun because you’re a fan boy is unacceptable.

[CWM11B]

The question posed in this thread was whether one would trust the 320, not hate it. The majority of critical posts I've read here are from first hand experience, and a lot of it from folks who are responsible for veritable fleets of the things, not personally owned samples of one. I dont hate Sig, I dont hate the 320. I don't trust them. Big difference. There are six classic P series in my safe. Used to be 10, and there was a time I recommended them whole heartedly. If I had to carry my 226 or 228, it would be without hesitation. If i had to carry a brand new Sig, I would opt for a 2022 (and pray they are still as solid as they were when I was issued one).

On the 320, the company lied. People got hurt. They covered it up. I've been lied to by the company more than once under the current leadership. It is far more complex to maintain at the unit/armorer level than a Glock or M&P. The 320s FCU has damn near as many parts as the two I mentioned do in total. I've seen one that took a roll in a sand creek during a post foot chase fight. It was frozen and had to be detail stripped to get it back in action. Would have sucked if the officer had to shoot it prior to getting it to an armorer.

As far as famous (in the firearms world) endorsing it, Bruce Gray (whose work I've seen, and was considering for my P series) pimped this gun HARD. So much so that when the issues surfaced he went on several internet rants, accused the folks who discovered the flaws of being liars, and quickly devolved into childish behavior. He ate a ton of crow, has virtually disappeared from online posting, and I suspect his business has suffered. I dont hate him either (never met him) but he's no longer under my consideration for work because of his behavior. Kyle Lamb is pushing them now. I have all of his videos, published works, and have actually met him. I also know a couple of guys in his former community pretty well who have nothing but respect for him, and so do I. I will jump at any chance to train with him, but I wont take his suggestion of buying a 320 (or 365, he pushes them too).

Whether the gun is "fixed" is moot to me. There are plenty of other platforms available that are more than capable of the task at hand. The trust is gone, and it will take a lot for them to re-earn it. Luckily, now I get to choose. For almost my entire LE career I did not, and absolutely had no choice in the military. Brand loyalty is fine, and I will give it myself, until the brand no longer deserves it. FWIW, Sig had that from me for over a decade, and then they didn't. And neither will my current provider should the product performance decline or the corporate ethics take a dump.

[KevH]

My previous answer was a simple, “No.”

Let me expand on that a bit.

I own several older P series SIG pistols and have owned (and let go) a bunch more. I watched, much to my dismay, as quality plummeted in the mid-2000’s and had a front seat watching neighboring agencies (one in particular) receive an entire lot (110 pistols I believe) of new P220R’s in 2009 to replace their mid-1990’s P220’s only to have that entire batch replaced within a couple months because of broken parts (particularly the takedown levers). Within a year this previously die-hard SIG agency had been burned so bad that they ditched SIG all together and went to Glock 21’s (they now Glock 17’s).

While all this was happening SIG repeatedly changed their customer service/sales structure for LE. Locally, we have had the same excellent Glock factory rep since the 2006 or so. The guy before him we had for at least a decade before that. S&W? Same guy has been our rep since at least 2006 (he worked for Glock before that). They always answer the phone and they typically show up fast when there is an issue. SIG? We’re at a dozen or more guys in the same time period. I know when dealing with Glock or S&W when I have an issue either the factory rep will show up in person and fix it or they will send me a tag to make shipping easy. I’ll send it to the factory and have the gun back fixed within a week or two. I can’t even get parts for some SIG models from the factory any more.

As a side note, I work for a S&W agency. We issued 659’s, then 5906’s, then the abomination of a gun the SW99, followed by the M&P 40, and now the M&P 9. I can tell you, without reservation, that they are an excellent company for an LE agency to do business with and they stand by their product. So much so that the company gave us (yes, for free) the M&P 40’s to replace the SW99’s. As an armorer I can tell you the M&P line (and the Glock) are easy to maintain and require very little maintenance and will continue to function even when they probably shouldn’t. It’s nice to know your gun will work when needed.

I’ve met Bruce Gray personally and own a couple guns worked over by him from back when he was in the Elk Grove/Sacramento area and have gone to a couple classes taught by Kyle Lamb. I like Bruce a lot, but I think he was done dirty a bit by SIG. He helped develop the platform and SIG’s production certainly didn’t quite meet his expectations. I think he took it all a bit personally and will leave it at that. Kyle Lamb is a sponsored shooter. He was sponsored previously by S&W and helped sell their products and now he’s sponsored by SIG. That’s just business and you have to realize it for what it is.

I won’t even go into the Kimber-esque bazillion variations of the P320 and P365 released and trying to figure out what works with what. If I have to sit and look at date codes to try to figure out if I have gun that will work or not there is a problem and the product should not have been released to the public to begin with.

Is the P320 a bad gun? No, the small sample size I played with I actually liked.

To answer the OP’s question, do I trust the P320 or the company that makes it? Not at all.

For a reliable out of the box gun that I know will work and that I know I will be able to get factory support from I’ll stick with Glock and S&W.

[CWM11B]

KevH's experience pretty much mirrors mine. And a bunch of other dudes in our biz.

[LockedBreech]

Kabooms with factory ammo, issues with rail mounted lights on .40s, weak ejection on early Gen 4 9mms, frisbee test fail, early issues with NYC guns which included one that would fire when the slide was dropped. Seems Glock has had quite a fair share of drama.

For the record, not a Glock hater and frequently carry one.

My official answer to the initial question, is the same I’d give all guns, not at first. For example, I wouldn’t trust an unknown 19, but I’d trust MY 19 because it’s been vetted by me.

A very valid point, thanks for the correction. TG had it right, unless YOUR pistol runs, nothing else matters.

[kcevans]

First hand reports from the founder of this forum and a firearms instructor for an agency that issues a particular gun or not hearsay.

Maybe other places but on PF you have 1) people who actually shoot and 2) people who do this for a living. Along those lines There is a difference between personal choice and objective choice of weapons for everyone in an organization. We have several people here including myself who have experience with the latter. Unfortunately not all information from professional sources can be cited or shared publicly. Issues with the SIG P320 not being dropped safe Were known in certain circles prior to it going public but could not be disclosed due to NDA.

Not everyone has the option of finding what works for them. Many people are issued or mandated to use a particular handgun and have to make it work. However, that assumes a handgun that has passed objective testing to establish mechanical accuracy and reliability.

It works for me it’s fine when it’s only your ass on the line. If I have to depend on you as part of a team then you overlooking the flaws of your pet handgun because you’re a fan boy is unacceptable.

LMAO, Dude, take a pill. Just because statements are questioned is no need to become a jacka##. For your information I have and do shoot regularly, 16 years of military service and shooting an average of 4k to 6k rounds per year does entitle me to ask a question concerning all the hate for the P320 and Sig in general. As for what has been stated on the internet, whether it is this site or any other, I will question it, heck my teenager can post on the internet she can fly the space shuttle, does that make it true?

Depending on me when your ass is on the line, WTF is this, GROW THE F%%K UP. Yes I am a fanboy of the P2## series Sigs and have been for years and will not apologize for it.

[HCM]

LMAO, Dude, take a pill. Just because statements are questioned is no need to become a jacka##. For your information I have and do shoot regularly, 16 years of military service and shooting an average of 4k to 6k rounds per year does entitle me to ask a question concerning all the hate for the P320 and Sig in general. As for what has been stated on the internet, whether it is this site or any other, I will question it, heck my teenager can post on the internet she can fly the space shuttle, does that make it true?

Depending on me when your ass is on the line, WTF is this, GROW THE F%%K UP. Yes I am a fanboy of the P2## series Sigs and have been for years and will not apologize for it.

SIG, the company, has earned the hate.

It was a general statement but Thank God I don’t have to depend on a POS like you.

[kcevans]

SIG, the company, has earned the hate.

It was a general statement but Thank God I don’t have to depend on a POS like you.

LOL, Dido for you too Bro.

[JBP55]

Here is my take. Sig, at one point, made fantastic quality P series pistols. The Glock, and other polymer pistols, put Sig at a price disadvantage, and Sig tried to compete by cheapening the P series. That didn’t go well, because the quality of the P series pistols suffered, and these pistols, even cheapened, were still too expensive to comepete with strikers. Sig’s polymer DA/SA pistols were pretty good, but the market wanted strikers. The 250 intro didn’t go well. All of that, caused people through direct experience, or from what they learned through whatever predated the “gun internet” to sour (sorry) on Sig. Sig’s CEO became a controversial figure, who was easy to dislike.

Sig was trying to survive, and that caused them to innovate. Without the luxury of other successful product lines to allow them to be patient, they pushed a number of “Gen 1” products out the door, like the 320 and MPX, using customers as their beta testers. The products have gotten a lot better, but early adopters got burned. Either through oversight or willful negligence, the 320 had a problem where it would fire when dropped at a certain angle. Sig certainly learned of it before the “collective we,” but it is unclear whether they tried to hide behind “drop safe per industry standards,” or hoped the problem was isolated enough they could slide through it.

As to the 320 design, my wife and many friends are shooting the crap out of them in daily or nearly daily sessions as USPSA CO pistols. Other than needing a periodic spray cleaning of the FCU, there is no trend of problems with them. The latest Gen MPX is much better. The current 365 and 365 XL pistols are mostly good. The Sig optics are still a work in process, but in fairness so is most every other red dot product. The Cross rifle is very interesting.

Sig is an easy company to hate, especially by folks that are not using and enjoying their products. Most people using Sig firearms are less vocal than those hating on Sig.


What is your take on the Sig P320 Professional Model L320CA-9-BXR3-PRO sold to Military and LEA supposedly made on a separate production line?
Mags made in Italy with square notch on bottom.

[GJM]

What is your take on the Sig P320 Professional Model L320CA-9-BXR3-PRO sold to Military and LEA supposedly made on a separate production line?
Mags made in Italy with square notch on bottom.

I don’t know anything about that model, but my wife and I have been using MecGar mags, whenever possible with Sig pistols. That started with the P series years ago.

While I like all sorts of handguns, Glock strikers and HK hammer guns are my own go to, in terms of trust. For Glock, the 43X and Gen 4 9mm models, and for HK, the USP FS and HK45C. With the popularity of the 320 Legion, that model is accumulating many rounds in practice and competition. I suspect between that, and the military, we will have a good idea of how the 320 is doing fairly soon.

[psalms144.1]

What is your take on the Sig P320 Professional Model L320CA-9-BXR3-PRO sold to Military and LEA supposedly made on a separate production line?
Mags made in Italy with square notch on bottom.
No matter the SKU, the guns are all made with the same parts, by the same folks, unless there's a contract specifying something special (MHS pistols have coatings on some parts that aren't on commercial P320s, for instance).

[Alpha Sierra]

supposedly made on a separate production line

An empty phrase

[HCM]

What is your take on the Sig P320 Professional Model L320CA-9-BXR3-PRO sold to Military and LEA supposedly made on a separate production line?
Mags made in Italy with square notch on bottom.


No matter the SKU, the guns are all made with the same parts, by the same folks, unless there's a contract specifying something special (MHS pistols have coatings on some parts that aren't on commercial P320s, for instance).

This ^^.

Outside of contracts specifying specific parts, most gun companies don’t have a separate production line for law-enforcement guns. They may get some additional quality control checks or in the case of SIG they get Italian /Mecgar made magazines.

[Texaspoff]

To answer the original question, I would trust my P320's, but only to a point. While I have not had a parts failure, there are areas that could be prone to a higher or earlier failure rate than some other manufacturers. It's not that the 320 is a POS, but it does have a more complicated firing system, with some smallish parts compared to some of the other brands, even the venerable 1911.

Only time will tell which parts are prone to failure if any and at what cycle rate they fail. Glocks, 1911's and several others have many years of testing behind them, and parts that are prone to failure are known. I honestly don't think are many at Sig that could even tell you they honestly trust the 320 without reservation. Even my last 320 armorers course instructor agreed, time is the only telling factor of the 320's success.

Glock went so far as to redesign their internals in the Gen5 guns to make them even less prone to failure than they already are, trigger return spring, slide lock spring, etc.

Depending on what if anything pops up, Sig would likely build a revised version of the 320. They essentially revised it when they did the voluntary upgrade, albeit the timing and circumstances weren't what they wanted.

The 320 will get there, in time, but it isn't there yet. It needs some seriously high round counts, be used and abused in combat theaters where it is exposed to elements and fiddling soldiers to really give it a shake out.

What do you think the answer would be if you had asked this question about Glock back in the 80's. I would have given the same response since Glocks were in the same boat at the time. They had their issues and growing pains as well, and it took quite a while for them to build the reliability reputation that have.

Ask me this again about the 320 in 10 years and at that point I can give you an educated and completely informed answer.


TXPO

[John Hearne]

Only time will tell which parts are prone to failure if any and at what cycle rate they fail. Glocks, 1911's and several others have many years of testing behind them, and parts that are prone to failure are known. I honestly don't think are many at Sig that could even tell you they honestly trust the 320 without reservation. Even my last 320 armorers course instructor agreed, time is the only telling factor of the 320's success.


Sig did have a hefty contingent of folks on their shooting team when the P320 was first released. Those folks ran a lot of rounds, live and dry, through the P320 system so I suspect we have some idea about what will fail.

With all due respect, its a polymer frame 9mm pistol. It's not like this is territory that has never been trod upon. If the P320 was being fielded in large number in 357 Sig, 40 S&W, or 45 ACP, I'd be more worried. We're not talking huge stresses from the 9mm cartridge. Am I the only one who remembers the 100,000 round P226s???

It seems that Sig wanted to make the agency friendly pistol with the best striker fired trigger. They put a lot of engineering into optimizing the trigger pull. I'd argue that this design priority is what led to the drop-safe issues. I suspect that for an agency gun, fielded by LE in the United States, that may see 5,000 rounds in it's life time, the P320 will be fine. High round counts, different cartridges or use in super dusty/sandy environments may be a different story.

[AMC]

Sig did have a hefty contingent of folks on their shooting team when the P320 was first released. Those folks ran a lot of rounds, live and dry, through the P320 system so I suspect we have some idea about what will fail.

With all due respect, its a polymer frame 9mm pistol. It's not like this is territory that has never been trod upon. If the P320 was being fielded in large number in 357 Sig, 40 S&W, or 45 ACP, I'd be more worried. We're not talking huge stresses from the 9mm cartridge. Am I the only one who remembers the 100,000 round P226s???

It seems that Sig wanted to make the agency friendly pistol with the best striker fired trigger. They put a lot of engineering into optimizing the trigger pull. I'd argue that this design priority is what led to the drop-safe issues. I suspect that for an agency gun, fielded by LE in the United States, that may see 5,000 rounds in it's life time, the P320 will be fine. High round counts, different cartridges or use in super dusty/sandy environments may be a different story.

So far, the only high round counts on these guns that I am aware of are with competition folks....who are generally using the X5/X5 Legion variants. Maybe HCM or one of the other folks at an agency issuing these guns can give a better perspective on that, if they have some high round counts guys running them.

This is one of the guns our agency is looking at to replace our legacy P226R .40's. I will also say the Sig has been.....difficult to deal with. I was somewhat surprised, frankly, how well they were received by our cops in our "hands on" shoot. 100% preferred the 320 Pro over the other pistol they shot it with. We scored their targets, and virtually all of them were more accurate with the 320 Pro as well. This process (picking a new agency sidearm) has probably been the least rewarding, most frustrating circle jerk I've ever been involved with. Ultimately someone's pet pistol isnt considered and butthurt ensues. And ultimately, we likely won't be able to pick the damn thing. Some 30 year old soft handed millenial accountants will do that for us. The constant "We're fools for not going with CZ/HK/STI!" we get from people who don't understand the importance of product support from both the manufacturer and industry (holsters, sights, etc.) is tiring. Two years.....and counting.

ETA: this is for a 2200 officer agency.....which makes the logistical support factor fairly important.

[HCM]

So far, the only high round counts on these guns that I am aware of are with competition folks....who are generally using the X5/X5 Legion variants. Maybe HCM or one of the other folks at an agency issuing these guns can give a better perspective on that, if they have some high round counts guys running them.

This is one of the guns our agency is looking at to replace our legacy P226R .40's. I will also say the Sig has been.....difficult to deal with. I was somewhat surprised, frankly, how well they were received by our cops in our "hands on" shoot. 100% preferred the 320 Pro over the other pistol they shot it with. We scored their targets, and virtually all of them were more accurate with the 320 Pro as well. This process (picking a new agency sidearm) has probably been the least rewarding, most frustrating circle jerk I've ever been involved with. Ultimately someone's pet pistol isnt considered and butthurt ensues. And ultimately, we likely won't be able to pick the damn thing. Some 30 year old soft handed millenial accountants will do that for us. The constant "We're fools for not going with CZ/HK/STI!" we get from people who don't understand the importance of product support from both the manufacturer and industry (holsters, sights, etc.) is tiring. Two years.....and counting.

We have only tested the P320 is up to 10,000 rounds In 250 round increments. If we get to 10,000 rounds we are supposed to turn the gun in and get another one.

[AMC]

We have only tested the P320 is up to 10,000 rounds In 250 round increments. If we get to 10,000 rounds we are supposed to turn the gun in and get another one.

Interesting. Is that schedule something your armorers came up with based on small parts breakage, wear, etc.? Or was that the practice with your previous issued sidearm? Preventative replacement?

[KevH]

This process (picking a new agency sidearm) has probably been the least rewarding, most frustrating circle jerk I've ever been involved with.

ETA: this is for a 2200 officer agency.....which makes the logistical support factor fairly important.

I'm guessing you're in CA and can almost guess which agency you are with...I pity you.

If you have any input, any at all, I would recommend Glock. Even if you need to have an NY1 trigger to make the jackasses that run your city happy.

I can give you (if you don't already have it) your local Glock rep's info. Larry is local and is one of of the best.

[HCM]

Interesting. Is that schedule something your armorers came up with based on small parts breakage, wear, etc.? Or was that the practice with your previous issued sidearm? Preventative replacement?

That has been standard and practice since since the mid 1990s when we adopted the Beretta 96D Brigadier but I don’t necessarily agree with it. Other than the HK USP Compact, which were beasts, 10k rounds was an unrealistic service life for .40 cal pistols to go without PMCS. Our P229s were breaking takedown levers at 6-7k. The breakages stopped when the recoil springs were changed En-mass. Prior to the 229 we issued a weapons record book and required individual users to keep round counts on all duty weapons.

The 250 round intervals are based on the average minimum rounds extended during quarterly training and qualification.

[AMC]

I'm guessing you're in CA and can almost guess which agency you are with...I pity you.

If you have any input, any at all, I would recommend Glock. Even if you need to have an NY1 trigger to make the jackasses that run your city happy.

I can give you (if you don't already have it) your local Glock rep's info. Larry is local and is one of of the best.

We have it. Had the Gen5 guns for T&E for awhile. Range staff liked them.....they're definitely the best guns Glock has produced yet. Good triggers, grip texture nice, finish good, and the Ameriglo Agent sights as a factory option is nice, too. There is a strong anti Glock bias in some quarters in our upper ranks....and I don't feel it's a fight worth having, in that it would likely extend this process for a couple more years. There's also the age old problem of pulling the trigger to field strip the gun....not a problem for dedicated shooters, but maybe an issue for gun carriers who can barely figure out how to insert a magazine into their weapon.

I'm well aware this is a training issue.....but training is a dirty word here, unless it includes the term "Implicit Bias". For my entire career, there has been zero in service firearms training offered to officers in our agency. You qualify twice a year on a 36 round course, with 75% passing score. I've recommended strongly a new qual, a minimum quarterly shoot, and in service training to accompany the qual. I recently instituted a training component with the qual. Two short, skill based drills. Some folks seem to think that training is unnecessary and punitive, that if an officer passes the (C-) qual, making them train is punishing them. That it is an officers own responsibility to seek out "practice", not the ranges responsibility to provide training. Sadly, some of that attitude comes from within the range staff.....and is being filtered to members of the command staff. I may be forced to stop providing firearms training to officers if that view prevails. The memo will be long and on fire, and cc'd widely, if that happens. But our problems are way bigger than what 9mm pistol we end up with.....

[AMC]

That has been standard and practice since since the mid 1990s when we adopted the Beretta 96D Brigadier but I don’t necessarily agree with it. Other than the HK USP Compact, which were beasts, 10k rounds was an unrealistic service life for .40 cal pistols to go without PMCS. Our P229s were breaking takedown levers at 6-7k. The breakages stopped when the recoil springs were changed En-mass. Prior to the 229 we issued a weapons record book and required individual users to keep round counts on all duty weapons.

The 250 round intervals are based on the average minimum rounds extended during quarterly training and qualification.

Nice to have resources! Our SWAT guys would be switching guns twice a year on that schedule. Our armorers have gotten better at educating our high round counts shooters on preventative maintenance. We've been breaking the 226 .40s at an accelerated rate.....cracking the frames under the grip, right side under the tang. Sig had modified the frame here to have one frame to accommodate both the traditional and DAK trigger bar, which required removing some metal. Apparently created a weak point which is showing up on our .40s. The newer guns, after they discontinued the DAK system, are beefier in that area. But we've broken everything that can be broken on a P series gun....even locking blocks.

[HCM]

Nice to have resources! Our SWAT guys would be switching guns twice a year on that schedule. Our armorers have gotten better at educating our high round counts shooters on preventative maintenance. We've been breaking the 226 .40s at an accelerated rate.....cracking the frames under the grip, right side under the tang. Sig had modified the frame here to have one frame to accommodate both the traditional and DAK trigger bar, which required removing some metal. Apparently created a weak point which is showing up on our .40s. The newer guns, after they discontinued the DAK system, are beefier in that area. But we've broken everything that can be broken on a P series gun....even locking blocks.

The guns that hit 10k or break are either re-built or converted into Red guns or blue SIMS guns.

It’s kind of a welfare program for our national armory. We have a field Armorer program and try to keep the guns of SRT guys etc properly maintained. The most common issue has been the takedown levers which goes away when the recoils paring is changed. However, I’ve had at least one SRT guy (who should have known better) who ran a 229 to about 25k without a recoil spring change and broke the nose off the spring box on the slide. Haven’t seen many frame cracks in the 229 DAKs.

If y’all are looking at P320s see if they can get you one of the DHS SKU models. They are the ones we issue and the only ones authorized for POW carry. My understanding is the primary difference is the internals have the same coatings as the actual M17/18 gun’s. I can tell you I have seen multiple issues with commercial P320s including my own two expels but the GOV contract guns have been 100% so far. If Glock can supply M models to state and local LE agencies SIG should be motivated do the same with the DHS SKU.

[AMC]

The guns that hit 10k or break are either re-built or converted into Red guns or blue SIMS guns.

It’s kind of a welfare program for our national armory. We have a field Armorer program and try to keep the guns of SRT guys etc properly maintained. The most common issue has been the takedown levers which goes away when the recoils paring is changed. However, I’ve had at least one SRT guy (who should have known better) who ran a 229 to about 25k without a recoil spring change and broke the nose off the spring box on the slide. Haven’t seen many frame cracks in the 229 DAKs.

If y’all are looking at P320s see if they can get you one of the DHS SKU models. They are the ones we issue and the only ones authorized for POW carry. My understanding is the primary difference is the internals have the same coatings as the actual M17/18 gun’s. I can tell you I have seen multiple issues with commercial P320s including my own two expels but the GOV contract guns have been 100% so far. If Glock can supply M models to state and local LE agencies SIG should be motivated do the same with the DHS SKU.

Sig has indicated a willingness to work with us on building exactly what we want in terms of feature set. Not sure if the LE 320 Pro series guns also have the milspec internal coatings or not. They are nice shooting, accurate pistols, and the samples I've seen have been 100% reliable so far....but this is over the course of a few thousand rounds only. Not at all sure how they'll fare at 20,000 rounds.

On a separate but related note.....the M&P 2.0 we have for T&E ran for 17 rounds without a hitch....with a Sig 320 mag mistakenly loaded into it by a non shooter officer. Didn't lock back the slide on empty, but shot without a hitch. Nice.

[Clusterfrack]

https://www.classactionsreporter.com/consumer/sig-sauer-model-p320-pistol-out-battery-firing-incidents-class-action

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200105/31fd0c4e8f1aabfd1eb524cb872df745.jpg

[TheNewbie]

Sig has indicated a willingness to work with us on building exactly what we want in terms of feature set. Not sure if the LE 320 Pro series guns also have the milspec internal coatings or not. They are nice shooting, accurate pistols, and the samples I've seen have been 100% reliable so far....but this is over the course of a few thousand rounds only. Not at all sure how they'll fare at 20,000 rounds.

On a separate but related note.....the M&P 2.0 we have for T&E ran for 17 rounds without a hitch....with a Sig 320 mag mistakenly loaded into it by a non shooter officer. Didn't lock back the slide on empty, but shot without a hitch. Nice.


That’s a great story. lol

We are getting a new chief. As of now there is no issued pistol and you can carry almost anything you want.

My concern is that this will change. Hopefully it doesn’t but if it does, then I am rooting for the M&P 2.0 or Gen 5 Glock.

[John Hearne]

If y’all are looking at P320s see if they can get you one of the DHS SKU models. They are the ones we issue and the only ones authorized for POW carry. My understanding is the primary difference is the internals have the same coatings as the actual M17/18 gun’s. I can tell you I have seen multiple issues with commercial P320s including my own two expels but the GOV contract guns have been 100% so far. If Glock can supply M models to state and local LE agencies SIG should be motivated do the same with the DHS SKU.

I have a friend who is a serious Sig LE dealer. The DHS guns are locked up tighter than a nun's ass.

Request needs to come from an ICE e-mail address per Proven Outfitters.

[HCM]

I have a friend who is a serious Sig LE dealer. The DHS guns are locked up tighter than a nun's ass.

Request needs to come from an ICE e-mail address per Proven Outfitters.

There are two designated distributors for ice officers to buy personally owned DHS SKU POW. I’m well aware of that. That is for individuals. It has nothing to do with what I’m talking about.

2200 guns is enough for SIG to make whatever they want.

If need be they can assign it a new SKU number and sell it to AMC’s PD as the AMC PD SKU gun.

[AMC]

There are two designated distributors for ice officers to buy personally owned DHS SKU POW. I’m well aware of that. That is for individuals. It has nothing to do with what I’m talking about.

2200 guns is enough for SIG to make whatever they want.

If need be they can assign it a new SKU number and sell it to AMC’s PD as the AMC PD SKU gun.

That is exactly what we were discussing. Same thing we did with our P226's. 2200+ guns is enough for some extra consideration when you buy. But who knows.....we may get stuck with Ruger SR9's. Our city's purchasing folks flat out don't understand that buying guns and ammunition is not like buying light bulbs and toilet paper at Costco. You can't just buy the Kirkland store brand.

[TheNewbie]

That is exactly what we were discussing. Same thing we did with our P226's. 2200+ guns is enough for some extra consideration when you buy. But who knows.....we may get stuck with Ruger SR9's. Our city's purchasing folks flat out don't understand that buying guns and ammunition is not like buying light bulbs and toilet paper at Costco. You can't just buy the Kirkland store brand.

A mysterious roll (different brand) of what seems to be soiled toilet paper appeared in the men's restroom. No one has touched it yet, though I am thinking of gloving up and disposing of the disturbing object.


Back on topic....


Are your P226s DAK or DA/SA? Are DAK guns even an agency option now?

[AMC]

A mysterious roll (different brand) of what seems to be soiled toilet paper appeared in the men's restroom. No one has touched it yet, though I am thinking of gloving up and disposing of the disturbing object.


Back on topic....


Are your P226s DAK or DA/SA? Are DAK guns even an agency option now?

They are DA/SA. I don't believe DAK is any kind of option for a new gun at this point. I believe Sig stopped manufacturing DAK guns. We were very seriously looking at just going to 9mm P226's. No conversion course, same holsters and mag pouches, etc. Trying to deal with Sig on that plan was less than ideal. They very clearly don't want to be selling agencies the P series classic guns anymore. Sad because a legacy slide P226 9mm with an SRT is a badass gun.

[TheNewbie]

They are DA/SA. I don't believe DAK is any kind of option for a new gun at this point. I believe Sig stopped manufacturing DAK guns. We were very seriously looking at just going to 9mm P226's. No conversion course, same holsters and mag pouches, etc. Trying to deal with Sig on that plan was less than ideal. They very clearly don't want to be selling agencies the P series classic guns anymore. Sad because a legacy slide P226 9mm with an SRT is a badass gun.


Kind of surprising. With that amount of guns, it seems like a good deal for Sig.


Is your off duty carry policy permissive of what you carry?



My wish is that the CZ P-07 takes off and gets all the support you need to sell it to a major agency. I live in reality though.

[KevH]

AMC

Like I said...I pity you.

[GJM]

Trend observed at USPSA matches — the Legion 320 is the single most common pistol being used for Production/Carry Optics. Glocks use, relative to the Legion, is about like in years past, the use of the XD compared to a Glock.

I walked into a gun store in Scottsdale, and overheard an interaction between gun sales guy and customer. Question — “how is Sig’s quality?” Answer — the” best of any gun we sell, and they even improved the design of the 1911 with an external extractor.” Not kidding. Looking around, I see where Sig is a retailer’s dream, between handguns, long guns, optics and ammo.

[45dotACP]

Trend observed at USPSA matches — the Legion 320 is the single most common pistol being used for Production/Carry Optics. Glocks use, relative to the Legion, is about like in years past, the use of the XD compared to a Glock.


That's fairly representative of my area as well. Glock is always doing well, but there's also a load of CO guys running some sort of Sig 320. Couple guys running XDs, maybe like one shooting M&Ps, the wannabe GMs run CZ shadows and the tactical timmies have a Zev Glock in a retention holster.

As for Sigs "Improvement of the 1911" I don't know whether to retch or admit that they have a point...

I bet if JMB designed today's service handgun, it would be a lot like the M17. The thumb safety is intuitive, the trigger is short and light in travel, and it has a magazine of appropriate capacity compared to it's contemporaries... it's the modern day 1911

And this is from one of the only single stack shooters who shows up to matches in my area [emoji23]

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[CWM11B]

Trend observed at USPSA matches — the Legion 320 is the single most common pistol being used for Production/Carry Optics. Glocks use, relative to the Legion, is about like in years past, the use of the XD compared to a Glock.

I walked into a gun store in Scottsdale, and overheard an interaction between gun sales guy and customer. Question — “how is Sig’s quality?” Answer — the” best of any gun we sell, and they even improved the design of the 1911 with an external extractor.” Not kidding. Looking around, I see where Sig is a retailer’s dream, between handguns, long guns, optics and ammo.

That is interesting, and makes me wonder if pistol preferences, like LE, is regional. My LGS can barely move Sigs and typically will only order them with cash up front. Around here one would think Glock was the hammer of Thor and bestowed upon the land by every deity known to man (I'm not in that crowd, but not a hater).

I tried to like the thing, and when our area rep came to my old shop we put it through the paces. It shot fine, but felt cheap to me (subjective, I acknowledge). This was before the drop debacle became public. We were two years into our new M&Ps, so there was no way we were going to switch. I did tell him that if it had been available when we were looking it would have been considered. Doubtful it would have been selected based on our past experience with them, but it would have gotten a fair shake from the evaluation team.

[Bucky]

CO in my area is a really mixed bag, the most diverse I’ve seen. We have Glocks, Sig P320s, M&Ps, and CZs as expected. More than a few people are running Walther. Seen at least three guys running classic Sig DA/SA guns. I know I’ve also seen at least one of the following, 92 variant, FN, XDm, and Tanfos.

[YVK]

That is interesting, and makes me wonder if pistol preferences, like LE, is regional.


It is, in my experience. I am not seeing the X5/Legion dominating the CO game in my area. We've maybe three guys shooting it, which is on par with Canik or CZ representation. Glock still holds the majority.

[Jared]

That is interesting, and makes me wonder if pistol preferences, like LE, is regional. My LGS can barely move Sigs and typically will only order them with cash up front. Around here one would think Glock was the hammer of Thor and bestowed upon the land by every deity known to man (I'm not in that crowd, but not a hater).

I tried to like the thing, and when our area rep came to my old shop we put it through the paces. It shot fine, but felt cheap to me (subjective, I acknowledge). This was before the drop debacle became public. We were two years into our new M&Ps, so there was no way we were going to switch. I did tell him that if it had been available when we were looking it would have been considered. Doubtful it would have been selected based on our past experience with them, but it would have gotten a fair shake from the evaluation team.

I’m all but certain it’s regional. One LGS I know will not stock new SIGs with the exception of the P365. The other keeps SIGs in stock, but they don’t move them with anywhere near the frequency they do Glocks. The first shop seems to move more Beretta 92s than SIGs. The second shop seems to move 92s and SIGs about equally.

Every shop I’ve seen close to me that really did well always makes sure to have at least a G17, G19, G43, and G42 in stock at all times.

[tlong17]

My LGSs seem to be opposite. Hard to find a 365XL in the case or any of the X-Series P320s. P320 Legion's are gone the day they come in. They've had the same stock of Glock 17's, 43x's and 48's for the last 2 months, along with the non X-Series P320 variants. They do seem to sell a lot of 19's. Don't even stock XD anymore.

[Sammy1]

Trend observed at USPSA matches — the Legion 320 is the single most common pistol being used for Production/Carry Optics. Glocks use, relative to the Legion, is about like in years past, the use of the XD compared to a Glock.

I walked into a gun store in Scottsdale, and overheard an interaction between gun sales guy and customer. Question — “how is Sig’s quality?” Answer — the” best of any gun we sell, and they even improved the design of the 1911 with an external extractor.” Not kidding. Looking around, I see where Sig is a retailer’s dream, between handguns, long guns, optics and ammo.

P320 dominates IDPA in my area. There are still a few Glocks and an occasional Beretta but mostly P320s.

[zaitcev]

I'm sure it's the price. Otherwise, I prefer Walther Q5 SF. Both fit my hands okay, iron sights are the same, but the trigger is better on the Walther. Seems easier to feel through take-up and the squeeze. Although admittedly it's my low level of experience speaking. But either way, the SIG is way cheaper.

SIG has factory 21-round magazines, while Walther tops out at 17. Perhaps that is a factor too.

[GJM]

It is, in my experience. I am not seeing the X5/Legion dominating the CO game in my area. We've maybe three guys shooting it, which is on par with Canik or CZ representation. Glock still holds the majority.

Do another survey when the snow stops falling, and the CO shooters come out to play again. :p

[AMC]

Its definitely regional...here its Glock and Cz with some M&P COREs as well. Almost no 320's, but that's because folks can't buy them except at jacked up prices on the second hand market. Cop sales are a different thing though. They're buying up every 365/365XL and X series 320 that comes down the pipe. They're hugely popular in these parts. Of course, these are mostly "gun buyer" and "gun carrier" type cops....but one of our pretty decent shooters, who's a big M&P (owns 4) and CZ (owns 5) guy, said he preferred shooting the 320 Pro. He was surprised how much he liked it. If only Sig could stop acting like dicks and get their act straightened out. They have a lot of really good, talented people working for them.....but the Gods of the Copybook pages rule....

[CWM11B]

I suspect I may be able to get some good info on how robust the design really is soon. The NCSHP just ordered 1800 of them. In .357 Sig.

[ccmdfd]

I suspect I may be able to get some good info on how robust the design really is soon. The NCSHP just ordered 1800 of them. In .357 Sig.

NCSHP loves them some .357 SIG.

cc

[John Hearne]

The NCSHP just ordered 1800 of them. In .357 Sig.

https://media.giphy.com/media/tFK8urY6XHj2w/giphy.gif

[CWM11B]

NCSHP loves them some .357 SIG.

cc

They sure do. It's damn near religion for them.
I wont bag on these guns if they dont pan out, seeing as how that cartridge seems to beat the hell out of damn near every pistol that feeds it. Especially polymer framed ones.

[TheNewbie]

I suspect I may be able to get some good info on how robust the design really is soon. The NCSHP just ordered 1800 of them. In .357 Sig.

Is NCHP the agency that still wears long sleeves and tie year round ?

[CWM11B]

It is. And probably always will

[TheNewbie]

It is. And probably always will


I think the modern LE uniform has gone too far the other way in many instances, but long sleeves and ties all year is silly and doesn’t even look good.



If my agency decides to adopt an issued weapon, I’m going to do my best to make it not the P320.

Even in 9mm, there is no reason to choose it over the G17, G45, or M&P 2.0.

[JonInWA]

I think the modern LE uniform has gone too far the other way in many instances, but long sleeves and ties all year is silly and doesn’t even look good.



If my agency decides to adopt an issued weapon, I’m going to do my best to make it not the P320.

Even in 9mm, there is no reason to choose it over the G17, G45, or M&P 2.0.

Actually, there might be-If current production stands the gaff for accuracy, durability and reliability, if you want a duty gun with an OEM RDS, a P320 RX may be a valid, and very cost-effective solution. My understanding is that current ones are coming with the Romeo1Pro.

Best, Jon

[PNWTO]

May I tangent this thread briefly and ask where the hivemind is on trusting the P365 series?

[Mitch]

May I tangent this thread briefly and ask where the hivemind is on trusting the P365 series?

I wouldn’t. I had one that wouldn’t consistently make it through a mag of 147 HST. One of the failures it blew the back plate off the slide. I was done with it after that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JodyH]

Our local PD (110 sworn officers) have carried Sigs for decades.
They switched to the P320 9mm around two years back.
They traded them all in on Glock 45 9mm's a few weeks ago.
Significant durability issues, drop safe concerns (even after upgrades) and terrible support were the primary factors.
One of the FD guys who's also sworn LE and attached to SWAT as a medic shoots with me quite a bit. He's broken three P320's so far (mostly small internal parts).

[HCM]

May I tangent this thread briefly and ask where the hivemind is on trusting the P365 series?

Much like other SIGs, It’s a crapshoot. If you get a good one made properly it will be fine. We’ve had a few fail Armorers inspection due to defects.

[0ddl0t]

May I tangent this thread briefly and ask where the hivemind is on trusting the P365 series?

I love mine. It was an early model and went back to Sig twice in the first year, but has been problem free for the last ~7,000 rounds (initially it was a little ammo sensitive when hot, dirty, or limp wristed). It now has ~15,000 rounds on it and is carried daily. Small enough to pocket carry, yet shoots like a bigger gun.

So I say go for it if you're willing to shoot it a bunch to vet yours, but really that goes for any gun (especially pocket pistols). If there is something wrong with it, Sig will fix it for free (with shipping, it typically takes about 2-3 weeks).

[Le Français]

I saw a TX DPS special agent (what they call their detectives) yesterday carrying a P320 AIWB without a holster. That’s a bit too much trust, IMO.

[WobblyPossum]

I saw a TX DPS special agent (what they call their detectives) yesterday carrying a P320 AIWB without a holster. That’s a bit too much trust, IMO.

I don’t think I have that much trust in any striker fired gun.

[TheNewbie]

I saw a TX DPS special agent (what they call their detectives) yesterday carrying a P320 AIWB without a holster. That’s a bit too much trust, IMO.



Uhhhhh no. That borders on the unbelievable. I believe you but I don't want to.


DPS Troopers go through, or at least they used to, a tough hiring process and a difficult academy. You still get some real goofballs though, some funny some concerning.

[Shoresy]

I saw a TX DPS special agent (what they call their detectives) yesterday carrying a P320 AIWB without a holster. That’s a bit too much trust, IMO.

It's a bold strategy, Cotton.

[Texaspoff]

I saw a TX DPS special agent (what they call their detectives) yesterday carrying a P320 AIWB without a holster. That’s a bit too much trust, IMO.

I have known some Rangers that would carry their pistols this way, 1911's and 226's but never seen one of their investigators do it. I certainly wouldn't carry this way, no matter what pistol it was.



TXPO

[Le Français]

Uhhhhh no. That borders on the unbelievable. I believe you but I don't want to.


DPS Troopers go through, or at least they used to, a tough hiring process and a difficult academy. You still get some real goofballs though, some funny some concerning.

You’ve probably been around enough cops, long enough, to have seen worse.

ETA: I’d estimate that special agent’s skill with a pistol at around USPSA B-class, and he’s good with a rifle. He’s not clueless about guns, but I made careful note of nearby tourniquets after seeing his carry method.

[TheNewbie]

You’ve probably been around enough cops, long enough, to have seen worse.

ETA: I’d estimate that special agent’s skill with a pistol at around USPSA B-class, and he’s good with a rifle. He’s not clueless about guns, but I made careful note of nearby tourniquets after seeing his carry method.

True. I had a cop show me his gun by pointing it at me (not on purpose). When I became upset he said “it’s not loaded”.

[CanineCombatives]

This has become a great comic relief thread, and it’s still delivering🤟🏼

[AMC]

Our local PD (110 sworn officers) have carried Sigs for decades.
They switched to the P320 9mm around two years back.
They traded them all in on Glock 45 9mm's a few weeks ago.
Significant durability issues, drop safe concerns (even after upgrades) and terrible support were the primary factors.
One of the FD guys who's also sworn LE and attached to SWAT as a medic shoots with me quite a bit. He's broken three P320's so far (mostly small internal parts).

This is something I'd be interested in hearing about. I contacted the East Coast Transit PD that had a supposed "spontaneous misfire" in a holster without handling from a 320, but the description and explanation of the event I received was.....not well informed. I'd like to talk to someone in that department about their experiences, if possible. If necessary, could you PM me with the name of the department, etc?

[CWM11B]

There have been genuine drop fire incidents, but there have also been gun go bang whilst finger fookin' it , but I'll cover it up with the dropped it/banged into a wall story.

[Jimichanga]

Would you trust a P320?

No, not for duty use.

My agency issues the P320 and I choose not to carry one. Ours are the law enforcement SKUs referenced previously. I have shot the govt P320 quite a bit and it is a huge improvement over the previously issued Sig. It is light, accurate and functions well. In short, I am uncomfortable with the way Sig has dealt with safety and quality control issues as they have arisen. In my opinion, their decisions are good for their shareholders but not necessarily the individuals using their products. The drop safety recall fiasco and firearm components sourced from India would just be a couple of examples.

Awhile back we were sent the MPX to T&E. This did nothing to alleviate my concerns with Sig's quality control.

For USPSA or some other gun game?

Sure, it is a nice pistol.

[LockedBreech]

No, not for duty use.

My agency issues the P320 and I choose not to carry one. Ours are the law enforcement SKUs referenced previously. I have shot the govt P320 quite a bit and it is a huge improvement over the previously issued Sig. It is light, accurate and functions well. In short, I am uncomfortable with the way Sig has dealt with safety and quality control issues as they have arisen. In my opinion, their decisions are good for their shareholders but not necessarily the individuals using their products. The drop safety recall fiasco and firearm components sourced from India would just be a couple of examples.

Awhile back we were sent the MPX to T&E. This did nothing to alleviate my concerns with Sig's quality control.

For USPSA or some other gun game?

Sure, it is a nice pistol.

What alternate options does your agency authorize and what did you select? Pure curiosity, if you can't answer it's cool.

[tlong17]

No, not for duty use.

My agency issues the P320 and I choose not to carry one. Ours are the law enforcement SKUs referenced previously. I have shot the govt P320 quite a bit and it is a huge improvement over the previously issued Sig. It is light, accurate and functions well. In short, I am uncomfortable with the way Sig has dealt with safety and quality control issues as they have arisen. In my opinion, their decisions are good for their shareholders but not necessarily the individuals using their products. The drop safety recall fiasco and firearm components sourced from India would just be a couple of examples.

Awhile back we were sent the MPX to T&E. This did nothing to alleviate my concerns with Sig's quality control.

For USPSA or some other gun game?

Sure, it is a nice pistol.

I’ve seen multiple references to “shareholders” of Sig and other firearm manufacturers. I’m assuming most mean non-owner/employee shareholders which confuses me since only a few big manufacturers are public companies. (S&W and Ruger)

Ultimately, whether it’s public shareholders or owners and employees, they all stand to benefit from a successful company. If they produce firearms that put peoples lives at risk (more than any other firearm) then they are not going to find long term success as the product will eventually be passed over. I think the incentive to build a durable, safe, and high performing product is there. No company is trying to intentionally create a crappy product.

[John Hearne]

firearm components sourced from India would just be a couple of examples.


I was under the impression, and I can't remember why, that Sig had moved all of its parts acquisition back to the U.S. (Maybe the interview Cohen did with Mas?)

Unlike what the radical leftists believe, economics reflect objective reality. There are hard limits to the economic viability of metal framed pistol in a world where your competition is building polymer framed pistols. My educated guess is that Sig's reliance on Indian/Israeli* sourced parts was when the classic Sigs were the majority of their sales. With their victory in the U.S. military pistol trials, I'd say Sig has cracked the code for making a pistol that is price competitive with the offerings from other manufacturers. I'd also point out that the annual "clean-ups" of the Sig pistol line tend to fall much more heavily on the metal framed pistol designs.

With the rise of P320, it is suddenly economically viable to bring the small parts manufacture back to the United States. Though I doubt they'll admit it, the efforts to use off-shore MIM parts in a design not created from scratch to use them was a disaster or at least not as profitable as expected. IIRC, Sig always machined the slides and frames state side. It was the small parts that were outsourced. With the P320, the slide is still made state side. If you pull apart the firing control group, there are a lot of stainless steel parts that are not MIM. There are probably a small enough number of small parts and since the future viability of Sig rode on the P320, that they decided to avoid cutting corners. We can certainly argue that the firing control design is overly complex but that is a different discussion.

Sig is still willing to play games to shave a few pennies - that is how I see the issue of the Checkmate magazines versus the Mecgars.

I also wonder how much of the way that Sig handled the drop-safe issues were driven by their lawyers and designed to limit their legal exposure. If you offer a voluntary upgrade, that is arguably different from a mandatory recall. One is indicative of a fundamental design flaw and the other is a polite suggestion. The fact remains, that the P320 passed all of the industry standard drop tests in existence at the time.

*-it is my understanding that Sig never intended to buy Indian sourced parts. They contracted with an Israeli company who had expertise in MIM. The Israeli company also realized they could make a lot more money if they subcontracted the parts out to the Indian company.

[HCM]

No, not for duty use.

My agency issues the P320 and I choose not to carry one. Ours are the law enforcement SKUs referenced previously. I have shot the govt P320 quite a bit and it is a huge improvement over the previously issued Sig. It is light, accurate and functions well. In short, I am uncomfortable with the way Sig has dealt with safety and quality control issues as they have arisen. In my opinion, their decisions are good for their shareholders but not necessarily the individuals using their products. The drop safety recall fiasco and firearm components sourced from India would just be a couple of examples.

Awhile back we were sent the MPX to T&E. This did nothing to alleviate my concerns with Sig's quality control.

For USPSA or some other gun game?

Sure, it is a nice pistol.

I agree the MPX is not ready for duty use. The MPXs we T&E’ed were Gen 2 and sig has unofficially moved on to Gen 3 via internal changes to the 16” PCC model.

In all honesty, SIG dealt with the drop safe and QC issuses in a very similar manner to Glock after incidents in the early 1990s, to include failing a DEA drop test. Glock did the whole it’s an upgrade, not a recall thing decades before SIG.

On another note, have you seen or experienced any failures of the LE SKU P320 with Mecgar mags ? I have not.

[DpdG]

On another note, have you seen or experienced any failures of the LE SKU P320 with Mecgar mags ? I have not.

In the fleet of 25 I maintain I’ve seen one RSA go south, plus the chrome plating on a sear began flaking/chipping off. These are LE guns delivered (but not issued) prior to dropgate that subsequently went through the upgrade program prior to being issued/fired. Round counts on both guns were fairly low- around 500 for the RSA, 2-2.5k for the sear.

[HCM]

In the fleet of 25 I maintain I’ve seen one RSA go south, plus the chrome plating on a sear began flaking/chipping off. These are LE guns delivered (but not issued) prior to dropgate that subsequently went through the upgrade program prior to being issued/fired. Round counts on both guns were fairly low- around 500 for the RSA, 2-2.5k for the sear.

To clarify I was specifically interested in the DHS SKU guns which are all post drop hate design. They also have the M17/18 coatings on the small parts.

[DpdG]

Sorry should have picked upon that.

Mine are bog standard Carry config- just through the LE side of the house. Nothing special about them. Not saying they’re bad, but hopefully the DHS ones are mo’ betta.

[HCM]

Sorry should have picked upon that.

Mine are bog standard Carry config- just through the LE side of the house. Nothing special about them. Not saying they’re bad, but hopefully the DHS ones are mo’ betta.

The coating / M17 internals are the only real difference AFAIK but so far the DHS guns have been GTG vs my somewhat mixed experience with commercial guns.

[DpdG]

The coating / M17 internals are the only real difference AFAIK but so far the DHS guns have been GTG vs my somewhat mixed experience with commercial guns.

Refresh my memory- y’all went with the XCarry-ish configuration, minus the slide cuts? Any chance of small or large X Carry grip modules?

[HCM]

Refresh my memory- y’all went with the XCarry-ish configuration, minus the slide cuts? Any chance of small or large X Carry grip modules?

That is the basic issue. The FS slide with X carry grip and the SC are also optional.

This question likely belongs in the have you seen a Bigfoot thread....

We were told small and Large X carry grips would be available and measured all our troops hands for the appropriate size when ordering their new guns. Have not seen any other sized X grips.

June 2019 factory Armorers course I was told the large exist but are hard to come by even within SIG. They said they would try to get us one. Never heard back.

My Agency recently advised that all factory OEM grip shells are authorized other than the grey one with the tungsten which SIG does not recommend for duty use. I don’t know how much the factory’s failure to deliver the small / large X grips played into it.

They changed /improved the shape of the X grip when the X Compact was released. I don’t know if that played a part in delaying the other sizes.

[Jimichanga]

What alternate options does your agency authorize and what did you select? Pure curiosity, if you can't answer it's cool.

The agency authorizes 9mm Glocks 17,19,26, 43. Sig P365 and the DHS SKU P320 if you are willing to purchase at retail price. There are a smattering of older guns grandfathered in that I don't recall. I carry the G17. It is an uninspiring tool like an Estwing hammer that you buy at Home Depot. It just does what it was designed to do.


I was under the impression, and I can't remember why, that Sig had moved all of its parts acquisition back to the U.S. (Maybe the interview Cohen did with Mas?)

***

With the rise of P320, it is suddenly economically viable to bring the small parts manufacture back to the United States. Though I doubt they'll admit it, the efforts to use off-shore MIM parts in a design not created from scratch to use them was a disaster or at least not as profitable as expected. IIRC, Sig always machined the slides and frames state side. It was the small parts that were outsourced. With the P320, the slide is still made state side. If you pull apart the firing control group, there are a lot of stainless steel parts that are not MIM. There are probably a small enough number of small parts and since the future viability of Sig rode on the P320, that they decided to avoid cutting corners. We can certainly argue that the firing control design is overly complex but that is a different discussion.

Sig is still willing to play games to shave a few pennies - that is how I see the issue of the Checkmate magazines versus the Mecgars.

I also wonder how much of the way that Sig handled the drop-safe issues were driven by their lawyers and designed to limit their legal exposure. If you offer a voluntary upgrade, that is arguably different from a mandatory recall. One is indicative of a fundamental design flaw and the other is a polite suggestion. The fact remains, that the P320 passed all of the industry standard drop tests in existence at the time.

*-it is my understanding that Sig never intended to buy Indian sourced parts. They contracted with an Israeli company who had expertise in MIM. The Israeli company also realized they could make a lot more money if they subcontracted the parts out to the Indian company.

I reread my post and I did sound overly harsh there. A Sig was my first gun, a P226 of West German origin. I still have the old girl.

I was not aware that Sig moved away from the Indian MIM sourced parts. That is definitely a step in the right direction. My reluctance stems from the track record rushing products to market and the corner cutting. That said the SKUs with rainbow, gold or diamond plate cringe-worthy big pimpin' P-series pistols did not help either. It seems for awhile there they were embracing the market of dudes who buy their guns, shoot them once and then carry them like a talisman.

As of late they have been back to innovating, the P320's modularity really is a remarkable design.

I would agree that the "voluntary upgrade" is all about the lawyers. Much like Glock did when they had issues with their NYPD G19s without an admission of fault.




In all honesty, SIG dealt with the drop safe and QC issues in a very similar manner to Glock after incidents in the early 1990s, to include failing a DEA drop test. Glock did the whole it’s an upgrade, not a recall thing decades before SIG.

On another note, have you seen or experienced any failures of the LE SKU P320 with Mecgar mags ? I have not.

I agree with you on the Glock issues. I seem to recall some shenanigans with Glock and the NYPD pistols having problems as well.

The issued P320s have run very well. I have not observed and have not been told of any malfunctions or stoppages. I was expecting more problems with the dirty training ammo and lackadaisical maintenance schedule that most of the guys have. We received a shipment of spare magazines and they were all Mecgar.

I have seen some malfunctions with personally purchased P365s. I did not think to check the origin of the magazines in those guns.

[ccmdfd]

It seems for awhile there they were embracing the market of dudes who buy their guns, shoot them once and then carry them like a talisman.



That's a pretty large group to market to; lots of money to be made with them.

cc

[KeeFus]

There have been genuine drop fire incidents, but there have also been gun go bang whilst finger fookin' it , but I'll cover it up with the dropped it/banged into a wall story.

From speaking to someone at High Point PD they've had a few issues with their 320's but CS was good. Since you're out that way...is that true? They've got a couple hundred of them I think...?

[HCM]

The agency authorizes 9mm Glocks 17,19,26, 43. Sig P365 and the DHS SKU P320 if you are willing to purchase at retail price. There are a smattering of older guns grandfathered in that I don't recall. I carry the G17. It is an uninspiring tool like an Estwing hammer that you buy at Home Depot. It just does what it was designed to do.



I reread my post and I did sound overly harsh there. A Sig was my first gun, a P226 of West German origin. I still have the old girl.

I was not aware that Sig moved away from the Indian MIM sourced parts. That is definitely a step in the right direction. My reluctance stems from the track record rushing products to market and the corner cutting. That said the SKUs with rainbow, gold or diamond plate cringe-worthy big pimpin' P-series pistols did not help either. It seems for awhile there they were embracing the market of dudes who buy their guns, shoot them once and then carry them like a talisman.

As of late they have been back to innovating, the P320's modularity really is a remarkable design.

I would agree that the "voluntary upgrade" is all about the lawyers. Much like Glock did when they had issues with their NYPD G19s without an admission of fault.



I agree with you on the Glock issues. I seem to recall some shenanigans with Glock and the NYPD pistols having problems as well.

The issued P320s have run very well. I have not observed and have not been told of any malfunctions or stoppages. I was expecting more problems with the dirty training ammo and lackadaisical maintenance schedule that most of the guys have. We received a shipment of spare magazines and they were all Mecgar.

I have seen some malfunctions with personally purchased P365s. I did not think to check the origin of the magazines in those guns.

I’ve had two commercial P365’s fail Armorer inspection due to manufacturing defects.

The disparity between the commercial and Govt P320s is interesting.

Glock’s drop safe issues and “not a recall” predated the NYPD Issues. They had to set up a trailer with a machine shop at the NYPD range to fix their G19s. Not to mention the shenanigans with G22 gen3s not running with WML.

[CWM11B]

Generally. Their RM and I are very good friends, and I speak with him pretty much daily. CS was handled to their satisfaction, but ultimatums were given. Their concerns have been addressed and they are driving on, and as I alluded to upthread, the officers are happy with it. I stand by my opinions. I think the QC is still spotty, and corporate is a shitshow. The only way I'd buy one is if I needed a training exemplar, and I would vet the hell out of it. And leave it to range work only.

I am going to be very interested in seeing how it holds up to .357 when SHP gets them.

[John Hearne]

They changed /improved the shape of the X grip when the X Compact was released. I don’t know if that played a part in delaying the other sizes.

If you measure the X Compact, it is actually smaller than the normal small module. Don't know if they can get it much smaller.

[JonInWA]

I'm pleased and impressed with my X Carry grip; I went from a standard Compact on my RX to the X Carry
Best, Jon

[HCM]

If you measure the X Compact, it is actually smaller than the normal small module. Don't know if they can get it much smaller.

The trigger reach is but it feels like they also added or reshaped some material at the tang. It feels better than the original X frame.

[KeeFus]

Generally. Their RM and I are very good friends, and I speak with him pretty much daily. CS was handled to their satisfaction, but ultimatums were given. Their concerns have been addressed and they are driving on, and as I alluded to upthread, the officers are happy with it. I stand by my opinions. I think the QC is still spotty, and corporate is a shitshow. The only way I'd buy one is if I needed a training exemplar, and I would vet the hell out of it. And leave it to range work only.

I am going to be very interested in seeing how it holds up to .357 when SHP gets them.

Parvin told us about the CS issues and the ultimatum when I took his shoot house instructor class. He’s a solid instructor and has the best job in the world. Seriously.

And yea, it’ll be interesting when SHP gets the 357Sig in the 320. Aside from the short departure to the M&P they’ve been heavily invested in Sig for awhile. They need to switch to Glock and 9mm but they’re too heavily invested in the 357.

[CWM11B]

Hes good people. We had the same job, but his facility is way more versatile than mine.
Yeah, .357 is absolute religion with those guys. Any disparaging word about it will damn near lead to fisticuffs :D
Getting my old place, and the current one I reserve for, into 9s from .40 were great accomplisments for me.

[zaitcev]

What sobered me about the .357 SIG is the realization that .40 keeps the energy better at range. It seemed so counter-intuitive, because the projectile has a larger frontal area, but is a fact. The bullets in .357 are not long enough to offset the difference, and their shape does not add any performance. When it became apparent that despite the same diameter the expanding projectiles for .357 must have a different design from the 9mm bullets, and thus are not compatible, it really was a cherry on top. The idea of using the high-tech bullets from 9mm was a lie from the start.

[Bratch]

If you measure the X Compact, it is actually smaller than the normal small module. Don't know if they can get it much smaller.

John

The only X Compact grip I’m finding is listed as a medium everywhere. Is this the module that measures out smaller than the regular small module? The baby 365xl grip is treating me well so if the xcompact is smaller than a regular module I’d like to try it.

[mistertwo]

John

The only X Compact grip I’m finding is listed as a medium everywhere. Is this the module that measures out smaller than the regular small module? The baby 365xl grip is treating me well so if the xcompact is smaller than a regular module I’d like to try it.

I've got both the P365 XL and a X Compact and love the grips on both since I have small hands. I don't believe I've seen any other size other than the medium for the X Compact grip. I know the grip that came on my X Compact was a medium. It might be my favorite pistol grip at this point.

[John Hearne]

The only X Compact grip I’m finding is listed as a medium everywhere. Is this the module that measures out smaller than the regular small module? The baby 365xl grip is treating me well so if the xcompact is smaller than a regular module I’d like to try it.

My chief just left and I had set her up with the compact, small module. I wanted to get her a custom module and the customizer only uses X frames as the sides are flatter. I had concerns and he measured the X-Compact module for me and reported that it was no bigger than the "small" in any dimensions and smaller than the "small" in a lot of dimensions.

FWIW, I'm just really annoyed they designed it to only work with compact and sub-compact frames. I really want to drop my full size slide on an X-Compact but it leaves a gap. My off-duty gun has been a compact module with full-size slide and I really like it.