.38 Special Snubby Ammo - Findings, Thoughts and Impressions

[revchuck38]

I thought I'd start a thread to talk about feeding .38 Special snubbies. You can talk about what you've found that works and doesn't. Factory ammo and/or handloads. Ammo for defense or plinking or practice or hunting. The more info, the better.

I'll start. I found that my 642-2 hits to POA with 125-grain bullets. I got a couple of boxes of Remington GS 125-grain +P to try based on positive experiences with the 9x19 versions and the fact that it's usually available at a good price ($19/50 from Target Sports).

I don't have the budget for factory practice ammo, so step one was to chronograph it to give me an idea of what velocity to shoot for (yeah, I wrote that :)) in my handloads. Five rounds came in at 941 fps with an SD of 15. POI was right on top of the front sight at ten yards.

Recoil was brisk but bearable. This isn't the cleanest ammo I've ever fired, but it left less residue than Federal wadcutter and in 11 cylinders full there were no issues of hard extraction, and the next rounds slid in with no binding.

I couldn't find the correct gel testing for it. The closest I could come was Lucky Gunner's tests, where the GS showed almost the exact same penetration and expansion as Winchester's RA38B in the same medium. I'll be using it for carry ammo in the 642.

[Irelander]

Me and my 642-1 like slow wadcutters. I first tried the Remington Target 148gr wadcutters. Those bad boys are awesome. Super consistent, low recoiling, and shoot POA for me.

Being the cheapskate that I am, I am currently using the Precision One 148gr copper plated wadcutters. They have a little more punch than the Remington Targets but still shoot POA and are very consistent.

I've never tried +P ammo out of a snubby and I doubt I will. The data I have seen on wadcutters and how nice they are to shoot has me sold.

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm required to carry "quality expanding ammunition" so wadcutters aren't an option for me. I like the 130gr PDX-1 from my LCR. Sample size of one, but it worked as advertised in a chest shot of a pitbull that announced it's presence by biting my forearm.

If I could carry wadcutters, I probably would.

[Duelist]

I used to carry 125gr standard velocity Gold Dots in my 642-2. They shot to point of aim, were very accurate, and pleasant to shoot. I have shot some +p 125gr Win JHP through it. They are not fun to shoot in it, and Win Ranger 130gr +p bonded are also not very fun to shoot. Full power 158gr lead factory loads, 158gr lead target level reloads, 130gr lead bunny fart handloads, 105gr mouse fart level handloads have all been shot through it. Heavy loads are not fun, most loads shoot to point of aim, and all loads function through it regardless of power level.

I currently carry Hornady 110gr Critical Defense, which are okay. I just bought a few boxes of Federal GMM wadcutters, but haven’t had a chance to shoot them yet. If they are what they are supposed to be as far as ease on my hands/joints and hit to POA, I’ll probably switch to carrying them.

I used to have a 1970 Detective Special. It was accurate and more fun to shoot than the 642, but the cylinder release was backwards and I didn’t want to ruin the finish on it, so I sold it. Just got a 60-9 Ladysmith in .357. It’s more fun to shoot heavier recoiling .38 Special loads through. I even tried 5 rounds of 110gr Winchester .357 Magnum, which weren’t as obnoxious as i thought they were going to be, but I don’t really think I’ll run many if any more magnums through it. If it gets carried in the mountains, it might have some 1100fps hard cast .357 loads in it. I didn’t get it to run magnums, though - I got it to train with instead of beating up my hand and wrist with the Airweight.

I have a 3” 13-3 that I’ve shot a little bit. It’s only sort of a snubby, though. I tried to sell it, but nobody seems to want it. I like it, it’s really the ultimate expression of a fixed sight Kframe in my mind. I’m keeping my 6” 28-2 as a fun gun, and potentially for hunting and if I need to run any heavy loads on a regular basis.

[blues]

S&W 642-1

American Eagle 130 gr FMJ for training

Winchester RA38B 130 gr +P JHP for carry

[spinmove_]

S&W 442-1

Federal 158gr. GMM Wadcutters for carry

Currently looking for a good practice load that’s FMJ. Any suggestions that’ll match my carry load fairly close?

[Duelist]

S&W 442-1

Federal 158gr. GMM Wadcutters for carry

Currently looking for a good practice load that’s FMJ. Any suggestions that’ll match my carry load fairly close?

I just paid ~$19/50 for Federal GMM wadcutters. That’s about what I’ve been seeing lately for 130gr FMJ American Eagle, so unless you don’t want to practice with lead bullets, if you want to run factory practice loads, I’d stock up on the wadcutters and just run with them.

[RJ]

Ruger LCR 5401 .38 with Federal Gold Medal Match Wadcutters. I shoot the GMM for practice as well as carry, in a pocket A Holster. Front sight replaced with a Novak Big Dot.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191122/dbb901d03718ccdaf2f00f00e9832668.jpg

[camsdaddy]

S&W 442-1

Federal 158gr. GMM Wadcutters for carry

Currently looking for a good practice load that’s FMJ. Any suggestions that’ll match my carry load fairly close?

Why do you prefer the 158 semiwadcutter over the 148 wadcutter?

[Duelist]

Why do you prefer the 158 semiwadcutter over the 148 wadcutter?

I *assumed* there was a typo - either on the bullet weight, or on which bullet shape. I haven’t seen a 158gr full wadcutter, but I’m sure it could be done.

[spinmove_]

I *assumed* there was a typo - either on the bullet weight, or on which bullet shape. I haven’t seen a 158gr full wadcutter, but I’m sure it could be done.

Totally a typo. They’re the 148gr variety.

[LtDave]

S&W 442-1

Federal 158gr. GMM Wadcutters for carry

Currently looking for a good practice load that’s FMJ. Any suggestions that’ll match my carry load fairly close?

I don't know if your POA/POI will be the same as the wadcutter, but I've had good results in several guns with Fiocchi 158 gr FMJ RN (38G) and Sellier & Bellot FMJ FP (SB38P).

[LtDave]

I have recently started testing 158 grain Semi wadcutters in several J frames and a Colt Cobra. The standard velocity 158's are pretty pleasant to shoot, maybe a little more recoil than the 148 wadcutters, but definitely less violence than the plus p rounds. So far I've tried the Federal, Remington, Winchester and Magtech SWC loads. I've also tried the Buffalo Bore non plus P 158 SWCHP. It has more recoil than the more common factory SWC loads, but not enough to be unpleasant in light weight guns.

The semi wadcutters seem to hit closer to POA. Best accuracy has been with the Federal and Remington loads. The Magtech is much smokier than the others. At this point, I'm liking the standard velocity semi wadcutters in lightweight guns.

[spinmove_]

I don't know if your POA/POI will be the same as the wadcutter, but I've had good results in several guns with Fiocchi 158 gr FMJ RN (38G) and Sellier & Bellot FMJ FP (SB38P).

I’ll see if I can give those a shot, thank you.

[Hambo]

S&W 442-1

Just as with 9mm, I'm not that particular. RA38B, Federal HST micro, and Speer Gold Dot short barrel are what I have carried. I did find some WC and they are way more fun to shoot. I'd switch to them except for the need for pointier bullets as reloads.

[Duelist]

S&W 442-1

Just as with 9mm, I'm not that particular. RA38B, Federal HST micro, and Speer Gold Dot short barrel are what I have carried. I did find some WC and they are way more fun to shoot. I'd switch to them except for the need for pointier bullets as reloads.

Some people are loading wadcutters as the admin load and carrying a pointier load for the reloads.

[WDR]

I *assumed* there was a typo - either on the bullet weight, or on which bullet shape. I haven’t seen a 158gr full wadcutter, but I’m sure it could be done.


Typo aside, there are heavier wadcutter bullets available for the handloader (pre-made, or cast your own), and Buffalo Bore and (IIRC) Double Tap make 150ish grain wadcutter ammo.

I carry either RA38B or the 135gr +P Gold Dot and practice mostly with my own lighter 148gr HBWC or 158gr SWC handloads. I wouldn't feel terrible about using either of my handloads in a pinch. I lucked into a case of RA38B for cheap, and recently found a local place selling 50rd boxes of the Gold Dot load for a reasonable price. The Ranger and Gold Dot loads shoot close enough to my sights to not worry about offset inside 20-25 yards. I also have a pile of 130gr FMJ Winchester factory ammo that I mix in to my practice routines.

I really think with snubbies, ammo isn't going to matter as much as learning how to shoot the gun well, if lighter recoiling wadcutter ammo allows you to do that, so be it.

[ACP230]

I am loading my snubnoses with Speer 135 grain Gold Dot loads.
They shoot to the same point of aim as my 158 grain LSWC reloads so
that's good. I can practice with my reloads and carry the Speer loads
with no point of aim issues.

I carried Cor-Bon 110 grain and Winchester HP loads for a while.
Switched to Speer ammo when I got some good deals on it some years
back.

[Holmes375]

Another fan of the Precision One plated 148 WCs. I use 'em for practice and carry. Affordable, consistent, slightly spirited, no leading. Speer GDs in the speed strips.

[Tokarev]

I currently carry Hornady 110gr Critical Defense, which are okay. I just bought a few boxes of Federal GMM wadcutters, but haven’t had a chance to shoot them yet. If they are what they are supposed to be as far as ease on my hands/joints and hit to POA, I’ll probably switch to carrying them.

The Hornady standard pressure load is a good option.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/6/6/testing-the-38-special-cartridge/

[Totem Polar]

FWIW, I have an LCR with an XS big dot on me now; that one has BB 150 full wadcutter in it, backed up by loaders with Speer 135gr GDHP.

The night cobra, and other all-steel .38s have the 135 GDHP in them.

In 3" or longer wheelies, I’m not opposed to Remington or even BB 158gr LSWCHP+P.

Again, FWIW.

[revchuck38]

In 3" or longer wheelies, I’m not opposed to Remington or even BB 158gr LSWCHP+P.


If 158-grain bullets hit to POA, I'd probably just use the Remington LHP that I use in my 4" guns. The recoil's not that bad.

[Tokarev]

Brass Fetcher video on various ballistic test media:

https://youtu.be/8hq9cBXvy30

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[10mmfanboy]

I have been using fiocchi classic line LWC 148 gn wadcutters in a lcrx 357 mag with a HIVIZ fiber front sight. And the pxd1 and I have some Remington 357 mag 140 gn XBP barnes bullets. Those are the only 357 mag I've shot through that gun but I like it quite a lot, not bad at all on the hand.

This may sound dumb but what are ya'll using to handload full wadcutters? Do you need a special bullet seating die? I've found quite a few wadcutters for hand loading, but I've never tried loading them before.

[revchuck38]

I have been using fiocchi classic line LWC 148 gn wadcutters in a lcrx 357 mag with a HIVIZ fiber front sight. And the pxd1 and I have some Remington 357 mag 140 gn XBP barnes bullets. Those are the only 357 mag I've shot through that gun but I like it quite a lot, not bad at all on the hand.

This may sound dumb but what are ya'll using to handload full wadcutters? Do you need a special bullet seating die? I've found quite a few wadcutters for hand loading, but I've never tried loading them before.

Most die sets come with two or three bullet punches. My ancient RCBS die came with two, one for round nose and another for flat nose; the flat nose one works for wadcutters.

[10mmfanboy]

Most die sets come with two or three bullet punches. My ancient RCBS die came with two, one for round nose and another for flat nose; the flat nose one works for wadcutters.
This helps tremendously, thank you! I haven't purchased any dies yet because I was trying to find out what to use for wadcutters. I am surprised there isn't more subject matter about reloading wadcutters out there.

[Nightvisionary]

Federal HST 130 grain +P is my go to. Few other choices will give the expansion and penetration comparable to this round.

[revchuck38]

My perception is that wadcutters in snubbies is a P-F niche thing. I'm not aware of any other group that practices as hard with snubbies or puts as much effort into finding how to use them most effectively. Then again, I rarely go to other gun forums, so it may be a lack of exposure on my part.

The trigger on my ex-police 642 is smoothing up nicely. I guess the 400+ rounds I've put through it in the month I've had it is more than its original owner shot it.

ETA: I guess the majority of folks who reload .38 Special wadcutter ammo are those Conventional Pistol shooters who use S&W M52s for the Centerfire COF.

[Totem Polar]

My perception is that wadcutters in snubbies is a P-F niche thing. I'm not aware of any other group that practices as hard with snubbies or puts as much effort into finding how to use them most effectively. Then again, I rarely go to other gun forums, so it may be a lack of exposure on my part.

I think you are right, on all counts—no need to go to other forums to confirm.

:0

[BehindBlueI's]

My perception is that wadcutters in snubbies is a P-F niche thing.

Perhaps, and perhaps in "modern times", but the concept is pretty old school. The cool kids back in the day would load HBWC backwards to make an expanding round, as well.

[revchuck38]

Perhaps, and perhaps in "modern times", but the concept is pretty old school. The cool kids back in the day would load HBWC backwards to make an expanding round, as well.

Oh, I'm old enough to remember back then. :) The resurgence seems to be P-F-specific.

Bill Nesbitt told me about the 138-grain (not a typo) WCs Bayou Bullets sells. I'll probably get some to see if they hit close enough to POA to be useful...I love those pretty round holes.

[BN]

This may sound dumb but what are ya'll using to handload full wadcutters? Do you need a special bullet seating die?

I used the same seating die, but I think I had to stack up washers on the seating punch to make it work.

[RJ]

Oh, I'm old enough to remember back then. :) The resurgence seems to be P-F-specific.

Bill Nesbitt told me about the 138-grain (not a typo) WCs Bayou Bullets sells. I'll probably get some to see if they hit close enough to POA to be useful...I love those pretty round holes.

This good video by Chris Baker is about three years old.

https://youtu.be/gPXDwi7O0jg

I also believe I’ve read an article on using WCs by Mr. Chuck Haggard, but I’d have to track it down.

[10mmfanboy]

I used the same seating die, but I think I had to stack up washers on the seating punch to make it work.

Thank you! Do you think 357 magnum dies would work too or too long for 38 wadcutters? I have to find the one video I found, the guy said he took something out of the seating die or flipped it around or something and it seemed to work good. I don't know why they don't just make a wadcutter seating die.

[BN]

Thank you! Do you think 357 magnum dies would work too or too long for 38 wadcutters? I have to find the one video I found, the guy said he took something out of the seating die or flipped it around or something and it seemed to work good. I don't know why they don't just make a wadcutter seating die.

I just looked. I'm using a Dillon 38/357 seating die and stem. It has interchangeable seating stems. I think I'm using the semi wadcutter stem with extra washers to make it long enough. Somebody probably makes a wadcutter stem that would work better.

[10mmfanboy]

I just looked. I'm using a Dillon 38/357 seating die and stem. It has interchangeable seating stems. I think I'm using the semi wadcutter stem with extra washers to make it long enough. Somebody probably makes a wadcutter stem that would work better.

That is a great help! Thank you so much for looking for me! I'll take a look at what Dillon has since I have a 550 anyway. I was probably going to use the rcbs turret press because I probably won't be pumping out as many 38s as I do other calibers, but the dies should work just fine in the rcbs.

My apologies for the thread drift. It just got me thinking about wanting to load my own wadcutters.

[CZ Man]

Another vote for Federal HST 130gr +P. Mild recoil, shoots to my J frame's sights, and I've been pleased with the gel test results I've got (11-13" with GREAT expansion).

Corbon DPX 110 gr +P is also decent in my experience, but it has a stiffer recoil and is more expensive and harder to find.

[Duelist]

Thank you! Do you think 357 magnum dies would work too or too long for 38 wadcutters? I have to find the one video I found, the guy said he took something out of the seating die or flipped it around or something and it seemed to work good. I don't know why they don't just make a wadcutter seating die.

I had a set of .357 dies at one point that were given to me. I don’t remember which one, probably the crimp? But one of them wouldn’t work at all for .38 Special. A set of .38/.357 dies works well for both.

[Mike Pipes]

I be liken Buffalo Bore 150 wadcutter. Hard lead,sharp edge, 17in penetration in gel , straight . Shoots POA in all my j's.
CYA Mike

[fatdog]

Ti cylinder J frames, Federal 148 match WC

Steel cylinder, steel frame guns, Corbon DPX

Older alloy frame airweights, specifically D frames or M12, Buffalo bore standard pressure loading of the Barnes 110gr HP

either the Buffalo Bore 110gr barnes or Corbon DPX in the speed strips as reloads for all

[Baldanders]

The Hornady standard pressure load is a good option.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/6/6/testing-the-38-special-cartridge/


Good article! I was curious to see how the new SuperVel load would perform; I have to say I'm not surprised.

I have 3 of the loads tested, and I have carried 125 grain Gold Dots and the +p version of the 110 grain Hornady load. I keep the Speer 135 grain load in my 640, with a moonclip of the 110 grain +p Hornady for a reload in my nightstand. I have accidentally mixed the standard pressure and +p versions of the Critical Defense load in a cylinder and I couldn't tell any difference between them. Chrono results on the web seem to show maybe 20-30 fps difference in a 2" barrel.

Interesting how well the boring old Remington load did--especially since it's less than half the price of the other options. I still have some on hand.

[JRV]

Tho only round that shoots to POA in my 642 is 158gr LSWC.

So, 158gr LSWC from Federal. Pretty soft shooting, reloads easily from a speedloader or strip, and a big, flat nose.

[El Cid]

Put me in the 135gr Gold Dot camp for my snubby.

[Inspector71]

Federal “38F” load for me. You know, it comes in those red & white boxes. 110 grain JHP+P. 919 FPS out of model 60 snub. Must be my Treasury heritage. For practice, I load 158 grain SWC, 4.0 grains 231, from my Dillion SDB.

[mtnbkr]

I currently run 135gr Gold Dots in my two snubbies (S&W 37-2 and Ruger LCR), but once my current stash is gone, I'll be switching over to wadcutters. The Buffalo Bore 150gr Wadcutters are good to go and I might get them as they're more available locally than target-oriented wadcutters, though expensive at $30/20. Still, they'll do for carry and I can load my own wadcutters for practice.

Chris

[Navin Johnson]

The 150 grain Buffalo bore wad cutter, to me, has as much or more recoil than the 135 grain gold dot 38 special.

The trade off of a target wad cutter is perhaps a bit less performance for a much more shootable and practice-able cartridge.

If one is inclined to deal with the recoil they are likely better off with a quality hp like the 135+p GD.

If Buffalo bore loaded that round to around 700 ft per second out of it 2 inch gun ( like the Fed GMM) with its sharp shoulder and hard cast projectile then they would have something.

I carry GMM for its shootability and the high QC provided by the manufacturer. I generally avoid boutique manufacturers for carry rounds.

[Wayne Dobbs]

The standard power (non +P) load that BB loads is really solid. You can buy the exact bullet they use from SNS Casting:

https://www.snscasting.com/38-357-148-grain-dewc-red-coated-1000ct/

Then load it with 3.5 grains of Bullseye and you have what I've found to be about the best general purpose .38 Special load out there. It shoots to sights, penetrates to about 17" in a straight line and is easy on guns and shooters. It can literally be the only load you need (except for some factory loaded BB ammo for carry).

[SeriousStudent]

The standard power (non +P) load that BB loads is really solid. You can buy the exact bullet they use from SNS Casting:

https://www.snscasting.com/38-357-148-grain-dewc-red-coated-1000ct/

Then load it with 3.5 grains of Bullseye and you have what I've found to be about the best general purpose .38 Special load out there. It shoots to sights, penetrates to about 17" in a straight line and is easy on guns and shooters. It can literally be the only load you need (except for some factory loaded BB ammo for carry).

Sweet! Thanks for the heads up!

[Holmes375]

The standard power (non +P) load that BB loads is really solid. You can buy the exact bullet they use from SNS Casting:

https://www.snscasting.com/38-357-148-grain-dewc-red-coated-1000ct/

Then load it with 3.5 grains of Bullseye and you have what I've found to be about the best general purpose .38 Special load out there. It shoots to sights, penetrates to about 17" in a straight line and is easy on guns and shooters. It can literally be the only load you need (except for some factory loaded BB ammo for carry).

I just ordered a few boxes of that stuff. Looking forward to trying it. Thanks!

[Navin Johnson]

The standard power (non +P) load that BB loads is really solid. You can buy the exact bullet they use from SNS Casting:

https://www.snscasting.com/38-357-148-grain-dewc-red-coated-1000ct/

Then load it with 3.5 grains of Bullseye and you have what I've found to be about the best general purpose .38 Special load out there. It shoots to sights, penetrates to about 17" in a straight line and is easy on guns and shooters. It can literally be the only load you need (except for some factory loaded BB ammo for carry).

Could you clarify what Buffalo Bore product you referring to. The link is for a 148 grain wad cutter.....Buffalo Bore claims there's is is 150 grains.

Also,. Is there another and wad cutter loaded by Buffalo bore that is at a lower velocity? I was unable to find one.
The 150 grain projectile at 850 ft per second has more perceived recoil than the 135 grain +GD Even though it is not rated +p by BB.

Thanks in advance

[Hambo]

Could you clarify what Buffalo Bore product you referring to. The link is for a 148 grain wad cutter.....Buffalo Bore claims there's is is 150 grains.

Same bullet. The mold is supposed to throw 148gr of a certain alloy, but it's not exact.

[mtnbkr]

Could you clarify what Buffalo Bore product you referring to. The link is for a 148 grain wad cutter.....Buffalo Bore claims there's is is 150 grains.

Also,. Is there another and wad cutter loaded by Buffalo bore that is at a lower velocity? I was unable to find one.
The 150 grain projectile at 850 ft per second has more perceived recoil than the 135 grain +GD Even though it is not rated +p by BB.

Thanks in advance

The BB load is 15 grains heavier than the GD load, so that would affect felt recoil.
That said, having fired both loads side-by-side in the same guns, at most I'd say they're equivalent in felt recoil, with the BB load being less "blasty" in comparison.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

Same bullet. The mold is supposed to throw 148gr of a certain alloy, but it's not exact.

Yup. More pure lead by percentage in the mix will increase weight.

Chris

[deputyG23]

My newer 442-2 gets Ranger bonded 130 grain +P
All my older .38s, service size or snub, get 158 grain Remington +P LHP.
Six rounds of the same on a belt pouch and four Ranger bonded on a speed strip in the same pocket as the holstered 442 pocket gun.
LHP rounds get mashed bullet noses when carried there.

[BBMW]

If I had to carry a .38 snubby for defense, it would likely be loaded with either Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P short barrel, or Buffalo Bore 158 grain +p LSWCHP.

[Totem Polar]

The BB load is 15 grains heavier than the GD load, so that would affect felt recoil.
That said, having fired both loads side-by-side in the same guns, at most I'd say they're equivalent in felt recoil, with the BB load being less "blasty" in comparison.

Chris

This is my experience of the two loads side-by-side as well.

Wayne Dobbs, are you sure you’re not thinking of the underwood loading that uses the same coated bullet?

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/38-special-150-grain-lead-wadcutter?variant=18785707556921

[mtnbkr]

I'm going to try and get out to the range this weekend while visiting my in-laws. I have an LCR, Buffalo Bore Wadcutters, Speer 135gr GDs, and Doubletap Target Wadcutters that I just found tonight at Sportsmans Warehouse. They were $28/50, so much cheaper than the BB load, but about the same as the Fed GM wadcutters.

We'll see what shoots best and to POA in the LCR.

Chris

[Wayne Dobbs]

This is my experience of the two loads side-by-side as well.

Wayne Dobbs, are you sure you’re not thinking of the underwood loading that uses the same coated bullet?

https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/38-special-150-grain-lead-wadcutter?variant=18785707556921

Underwood may use it also in their load. BB uses the uncoated version last I saw, but I clicked on the coated one because it came up first on SNS's long list of bullets on their site. If I'm not mistaken, the bullet is from the Saeco 348 mold. C.E. "Ed" Harris, an amazing ammo/firearms tech authority, has suggested this bullet over 3.5 grains of Bullseye for a great general purpose .38 Special standard pressure, full power load. I've found he is correct!

If you're a serious .38 shooter, caster or reloader go look at this:

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/Revisiting%20The%20Double-End%20Wadcutter%20and%20the%20FBI%20Load.htm

[Totem Polar]

Underwood may use it also in their load. BB uses the uncoated version last I saw, but I clicked on the coated one because it came up first on SNS's long list of bullets on their site. If I'm not mistaken, the bullet is from the Saeco 348 mold. C.E. "Ed" Harris, an amazing ammo/firearms tech authority, has suggested this bullet over 3.5 grains of Bullseye for a great general purpose .38 Special standard pressure, full power load. I've found he is correct!

If you're a serious .38 shooter, caster or reloader go look at this:

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/Revisiting%20The%20Double-End%20Wadcutter%20and%20the%20FBI%20Load.htm

Copy, thanks for the clarification. Great article^^^ thanks for that, too! As always, I appreciate your expertise.

[Borderland]

Me and my 642-1 like slow wadcutters. I first tried the Remington Target 148gr wadcutters. Those bad boys are awesome. Super consistent, low recoiling, and shoot POA for me.

Being the cheapskate that I am, I am currently using the Precision One 148gr copper plated wadcutters. They have a little more punch than the Remington Targets but still shoot POA and are very consistent.

I've never tried +P ammo out of a snubby and I doubt I will. The data I have seen on wadcutters and how nice they are to shoot has me sold.

The problem with 38 is the low MV. Basically not enough to expand much of anything. Hornady has it's critical defense but I think they had to drop down to 90 gr to get the MV up on their non plus P stuff. It's a hollow point with a plastic insert. That leaves wadcutters. Probably about as good as it gets with heavier bullets.;)

I don't own any plus P 38's but I do carry a 38. I have faith in wadcutters.

[TGS]

DocGKR's stickied post on 38 Special snubnose ammunition is probably a good thing to read before commenting in this thread.

[mtnbkr]

DocGKR's stickied post on 38 Special snubnose ammunition is probably a good thing to read before commenting in this thread.

Which one is that? There isn't a stickied post about 38 ammo in this forum or the revolver forum unless you're referring to the 380 vs 38 one (more a reference for BUGs than a deep discussion on 38spec ammo). That one recommends some of the same loads we've been suggesting here, such as the 135gr GD and the broader class of target wadcutters. There was also a suggestion for 110gr DPX.

For my own use, I'm going to switch to target wadcutters because I can duplicate that load as a handloader, but rely on factory ammo for carry. It's harder to do that using the 135gr GD load.

Chris

[RJ]

Which one is that? There isn't a stickied post about 38 ammo in this forum or the revolver forum unless you're referring to the 380 vs 38 one (more a reference for BUGs than a deep discussion on 38spec ammo). That one recommends some of the same loads we've been suggesting here, such as the 135gr GD and the broader class of target wadcutters. There was also a suggestion for 110gr DPX.

For my own use, I'm going to switch to target wadcutters because I can duplicate that load as a handloader, but rely on factory ammo for carry. It's harder to do that using the 135gr GD load.

Chris

I believe yes it’s this one:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp

[revchuck38]

I'm aware of DocGKR's recommendations. In the best of all possible worlds, I'd go with them - based on his advice I carry HST in my autoloaders. Availability of the RA38B is spotty outside of LE channels and I consider Barnes a boutique producer; additionally, Barnes advertises how "lethal" their bullets are and I don't want to have to deal with that in court in the event I'd have to defend myself. I'm open to the Speer load, I need to find some to see if it hits to POA. My guess is that the 110-grain loads would hit below POA from my gun.

I wish there were test results available outside of LE channels.

[willie]

DocGKR is the only researcher validating wadcutter use in .38 snub revolvers. Other people throughout the years have commented yea or nay, but he has supported his opinion. Until he did, I did not suggest the wadcutter and suggested hotter ammo. I was wrong.

Some .357 Mag dies work with .38 brass. Some don't. Those that don't will seat but not crimp the shorter brass. Lyman dies work with both. Others probably will.

Different bullet shapes have different seating stems. The completely flat wc stem works very well with all bullet shapes.

Lyman has made 160 grain wadcutter molds. The wc bullet can be seated farther out in the case to increase powder capacity. The experimenter can then increase charge to bump up velocity. In the past I did so and shot the ammo through a Ruger single action and thumped everything I shot with it.

[BehindBlueI's]

Some .357 Mag dies work with .38 brass. Some don't. Those that don't will seat but not crimp the shorter brass. Lyman dies work with both. Others probably will.

Lee dies will, and they don't sell a dedicated version since you just adjust for whichever you are loading. I've loaded a metric butt-ton of .38 special wadcutters with mine, but loaded plenty of "real" 158gr .357 magnum ammo as well.

[TGS]

SGAmmo.com has you covered if you're looking for the Short Barrel Gold Dot load, revchuck38.

https://www.sgammo.com/product/38-special-ammo/20-round-box-38-special-p-135-grain-gold-dot-hollow-point-gdhp-short-barrel-0

https://www.sgammo.com/product/38-special-ammo/20-round-box-38-special-p-135-grain-gold-dot-hollow-point-gdhp-short-barrel-

No idea why there's two different product codes with a $5 difference per box when they appear identical with the exception of packaging, but there's plenty to buy. :D

[revchuck38]

TGS - Thanks!

[Malamute]

Some .357 Mag dies work with .38 brass. Some don't. Those that don't will seat but not crimp the shorter brass. Lyman dies work with both. Others probably will.

Lyman has made 160 grain wadcutter molds. The wc bullet can be seated farther out in the case to increase powder capacity. The experimenter can then increase charge to bump up velocity...

I think most dies today work with 38s and 357s. I had an older die set that didnt crimp 38s, I had the boss at the bike shop turn it down shorter in the lathe so it crimped. One could also just buy a crimp or crimp seat die.

The wadcutters that stick out were fairly common in the distant past. i recall seeing them listed as factory wadcutters in 1960s and earlier Shooters Bibles. I have a Lyman mould for that type, they made them in 148 and 160-ish grain with the same number (dont recall the mould number, 360344? That one first came out in the 19-teens). They were used before there were actual flush seated wadcutter cases that were thinner walled farther back so they didnt compress the bullet base when seated. The wadcutter cases been widely described as having two knurled rings around the case, most 38 cases have one or none. Anyway, the old type wadcutters left about 1/4" of bullet sticking out, thats how they were designed and intended to be used, they had a beveled crimp groove and two lube grooves I believe.

Edit: the Lyman Ideal mould number I was thinking of is the 358432.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7575&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1403143657

[willie]

You are correct. The hot loaded ones I shot in the Blackhawk were extended beyond the case mouth about 1/2 inch and then were crimped using a lube groove. This was a young man's experiment. They were effective on the poor critters I popped with them but so would have been any other hot load. A more sensible load is seen in the bullet you cite and 3.5 to 4.0 grains of Bullseye or Red Dot.

[jandbj]

I think most dies today work with 38s and 357s. I had an older die set that didnt crimp 38s, I had the boss at the bike shop turn it down shorter in the lathe so it crimped. One could also just buy a crimp or crimp seat die.

The wadcutters that stick out were fairly common in the distant past. i recall seeing them listed as factory wadcutters in 1960s and earlier Shooters Bibles. I have a Lyman mould for that type, they made them in 148 and 160-ish grain with the same number (dont recall the mould number, 360344? That one first came out in the 19-teens). They were used before there were actual flush seated wadcutter cases that were thinner walled farther back so they didnt compress the bullet base when seated. The wadcutter cases been widely described as having two knurled rings around the case, most 38 cases have one or none. Anyway, the old type wadcutters left about 1/4" of bullet sticking out, thats how they were designed and intended to be used, they had a beveled crimp groove and two lube grooves I believe.

Edit: the Lyman Ideal mould number I was thinking of is the 358432.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7575&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1403143657
Skeeter Skelton loads...
http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt38spcl.htm

[MDFA]

Black Hills 148gr. HBWC with 110 gr. HP for reloads. In both our Ruger LCR's.

[BBMW]

Are there any properly preformed IWBA standard ballistic gelatin tests performed on the .38 Spl Gold Dot 135 grain +p short barrel load. I tried searching but in the site and through Google, and didn't find anything definitive (a fair number of amateur tests.) Anyone have a link to such (Doc?)

[TGS]

Are there any properly preformed IWBA standard ballistic gelatin tests performed on the .38 Spl Gold Dot 135 grain +p short barrel load. I tried searching but in the site and through Google, and didn't find anything definitive (a fair number of amateur tests.) Anyone have a link to such (Doc?)

He doesn't present the actual test, but in the thread mentioned on the previous page Doc states the short barrel 135gr GDHP load is one of the few that makes the cut.

[revchuck38]

Are there any properly preformed IWBA standard ballistic gelatin tests performed on the .38 Spl Gold Dot 135 grain +p short barrel load. I tried searching but in the site and through Google, and didn't find anything definitive (a fair number of amateur tests.) Anyone have a link to such (Doc?)

I’d like to see this too. Most of us have chosen our carry loads based on DocGKR’s recommendations and trust that he made them based on solid data...but we’d still like to see those results for ourselves.

[Totem Polar]

Doc has posted a link to extensive testing done on that exact load here before. I admit to being too lazy to look for the thread.

[Velo Dog]

Are there any properly preformed IWBA standard ballistic gelatin tests performed on the .38 Spl Gold Dot 135 grain +p short barrel load.

DocGKR has posted this before

.38 Sp Speer 135 gr +P JHP Gold Dot (53921), ave vel=856f/s
BG: pen=13.1”, RD=0.56”, RW=134.5gr
4 layer denim: pen=13.6”, RD=0.53”, RW=134.1gr
auto windshield: pen=9.4”, RD=0.51”, RW=129.6gr

[Velo Dog]

Are there any properly preformed IWBA standard ballistic gelatin tests performed on the .38 Spl Gold Dot 135 grain +p short barrel load.


https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/downloads/catalogs/GoldDotPoster.pdf

[BBMW]

This is what I was looking for. I tried both forum search and google search, but couldn't find it. Thanks


DocGKR has posted this before

.38 Sp Speer 135 gr +P JHP Gold Dot (53921), ave vel=856f/s
BG: pen=13.1”, RD=0.56”, RW=134.5gr
4 layer denim: pen=13.6”, RD=0.53”, RW=134.1gr
auto windshield: pen=9.4”, RD=0.51”, RW=129.6gr

[BBMW]

I've seen the poster before. But I wanted something that was independent of the manufacturer. Interestingly Doc's test seems to show better performance (at least penetration) than the poster.


https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/downloads/catalogs/GoldDotPoster.pdf

[mtnbkr]

The 150 grain projectile at 850 ft per second has more perceived recoil than the 135 grain +GD Even though it is not rated +p by BB.



The BB load is 15 grains heavier than the GD load, so that would affect felt recoil.
That said, having fired both loads side-by-side in the same guns, at most I'd say they're equivalent in felt recoil, with the BB load being less "blasty" in comparison.

Chris


Mea Culpa. At the range today, I fired both loads side-by-side. Even though last time they felt similar, this time around it wasn't even close. The BB load battered the first joint of my thumb whereas the Speer GD load was almost pleasant to shoot in comparison. I don't know how I managed to form the opinion they were similar recoil-wise because that was NOT the case today. I was shooting both loads in the same gun on both occasions. Though the first time I also included an airweight j-frame.

Chris

[mtnbkr]

I'm going to try and get out to the range this weekend while visiting my in-laws. I have an LCR, Buffalo Bore Wadcutters, Speer 135gr GDs, and Doubletap Target Wadcutters that I just found tonight at Sportsmans Warehouse. They were $28/50, so much cheaper than the BB load, but about the same as the Fed GM wadcutters.

We'll see what shoots best and to POA in the LCR.

Chris

To be honest, the GD load shot best. Recoil was between the BB load and the Doubletap Target Wadcutters. Accuracy-wise, the DT and GD loads were neck-in-neck. The DT load was filthy though. Granted, I shot more of those than the GD and BB loads combined, but the gun was a mess afterward.

So, for my use, I'll probably stick with the GD load for "in town social" purposes. I might give the BB 150gr Wadcutters another try if/when I get a 3" LCRx. If they shoot better and the larger grip makes them more comfortable to shoot, they might be a better choice for a trail gun.

[Jhp147]

I think I'm down to my last few rat-holed Federal Nyclad 125 "Chief's Special" 125 grain loads from the 1990's. I just like them because they are decent to shoot and the hollow point is huge and maybe might expand. Gold Dot short barrel loads are replacing them and I use some generic 148 wadcutters for practice. POI hasn't been a problem at the short ranges I've used them for.

[358156hp]

Ed Harris 38 Spl. articles are below. Ed is a rather prolific writer who has worked on the NRA technical departments, Sturm, Ruger & co, and as an independent consultant.

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/38wadcutterQA.htm

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/Revisiting%20The%20Double-End%20Wadcutter%20and%20the%20FBI%20Load.htm

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/Button%20nose%20vs%20Button.htm

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/theversatile38special.htm

[Totem Polar]

Mea Culpa. At the range today, I fired both loads side-by-side. Even though last time they felt similar, this time around it wasn't even close. The BB load battered the first joint of my thumb whereas the Speer GD load was almost pleasant to shoot in comparison. I don't know how I managed to form the opinion they were similar recoil-wise because that was NOT the case today. I was shooting both loads in the same gun on both occasions. Though the first time I also included an airweight j-frame.

Chris

Man, I just gave these two rounds a side-by-side go in my LCR a couple of weeks ago. Now I have to go do it again. Thanks a lot.
;)

[mtnbkr]

Man, I just gave these two rounds a side-by-side go in my LCR a couple of weeks ago. Now I have to go do it again. Thanks a lot.
;)

You're welcome. :)

For in-town-social-work, the BB load may be too much of a good thing considering how much target wadcutters penetrate. I may keep some on hand, but for trail duty only. The GD and target loads will suffice for social work.

I've got 60 rounds of the GD load left. I need to find an alternative that is readily available, but effective.

Chris

[Jamie]

I have a very old set of Lyman .38/.357 dies I use and they work well to seat and crimp both .38 spl and .357 mags.

A couple of years ago I loaded some Rainier 148 gr plated wadcutters for my 686 with a 4 inch barrel. My load data is below. They were accurate rounds, a couple on inches at 15 yards (my shooting is the issue). I tired to keep them around 1000 fps, but think they would be overly penetrative for in-town use. I think they'd be a bit snappy in an LCR .357 as well, but I haven't tried them in anything but my 686.

148 gr DEWC .357 load S&W 4” 686
OAL 1.40” Winchester Magnum Small Pistol Primers

“Hercules” 2400 powder circa 1991
11.0 grs 943-908-891-973-913-1045
12.0 grs 1061-1075-1033-1049-1013-1081

Alliant Unique powder
5.3 grs 846-864-793-768-819-865-723-816
5.8 grs 885-907-899-927-913-877

I too carry GD in my .38 LCR, but will probably switch to Fed GM Match wadcutters as these rotate out. This is a cost thing, and I handload wadcutters that match POA/POA anyway.

My offside pocket revolver is a .22 LCR and I keep CCI Stingers in it (and shoot them and replenish them weekly). The trigger on the .22 LCR, while noticeably heavier than the .38, is incredibly smooth and in no way detrimental to accurate shooting imho.

I wouldn't mind having a 3 inch LCR, but of course I want an LCR in 327 too... it'd be fun to handload for as well :)

[358156hp]

I have at least three sets of 38/357 dies, the main reason for this is that I often start out with a set, then don't like one if the dies for some reason and buy another set that has dies that may address the issue (real or imagined) I'm dealing with. Then I find something else to complain about and buy more. My resulting "user" set commonly has dies from three or more manufacturers. My current setup uses an RCBS "Cowboy" sizing die because all other "standard" dies overwork my precious cases, a Lyman "M" die to expand the case mouths, a Dillon powder charging die set to only drop powder, now additional flaring, a Hornady seating die, set up to seat only, and a Redding Profile crimp die. Since I use a 4 station 550 Dillon, I size all cases in advance in a single stage. Don't be afraid to experiment until you get what you want. See? and you thought you were picky. I use similar combinations in most handgun calibers, you should see my 357 SIG setup!

BTW, Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbooks carry some pretty hot data for wadcutters in 357 mag cases, just don't use this data with hollowbase wadcutters or you risk bullet skirt separations.

I'll stop here since this isn't the reloading board.

[El Cid]

You're welcome. :)

For in-town-social-work, the BB load may be too much of a good thing considering how much target wadcutters penetrate. I may keep some on hand, but for trail duty only. The GD and target loads will suffice for social work.

I've got 60 rounds of the GD load left. I need to find an alternative that is readily available, but effective.

Chris

I’ve found it’s usually in stock here. They have 500 round cases and 20 round boxes.

https://www.sgammo.com/product/38-special-ammo/500-round-case-38-special-p-135-grain-gold-dot-hollow-point-gdhp-short-barre

[Wayne Dobbs]

I have at least three sets of 38/357 dies, the main reason for this is that I often start out with a set, then don't like one if the dies for some reason and buy another set that has dies that may address the issue (real or imagined) I'm dealing with. Then I find something else to complain about and buy more. My resulting "user" set commonly has dies from three or more manufacturers. My current setup uses an RCBS "Cowboy" sizing die because all other "standard" dies overwork my precious cases, a Lyman "M" die to expand the case mouths, a Dillon powder charging die set to only drop powder, now additional flaring, a Hornady seating die, set up to seat only, and a Redding Profile crimp die. Since I use a 4 station 550 Dillon, I size all cases in advance in a single stage. Don't be afraid to experiment until you get what you want. See? and you thought you were picky. I use similar combinations in most handgun calibers, you should see my 357 SIG setup!

BTW, Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbooks carry some pretty hot data for wadcutters in 357 mag cases, just don't use this data with hollowbase wadcutters or you risk bullet skirt separations.

I'll stop here since this isn't the reloading board.

Does the RCBS Cowboy .38 sizing die allow for decapping at the same time? I'm with you on standard dies and especially the Dillon dies oversizing .38 brass.

[TiroFijo]

I use a Lyman (non cowboy) carbide die set for 357 in my Dillon 550. With taper crimp!
Works very well with any bullet, 90% of my reloads are cast bullets. I made spacer rings in a thickness equal to the difference in case lengths of 38 vs 357, so I use then for both calibers without reajustment.

[Holmes375]

Well I've discovered I'm not tough enough for the 1000 fps BB 150gr WC load in an Airweight J. Recovery is noticeably slower than with the Federal WC or Precision One WC loads. Recoil is enough that I'm not inclined to try and train through it for EDC carry.

The remainder of the BB WC ammo has been reassigned to the 3" Model 60 ;)

[revchuck38]

I've settled on a handload for my 642. The carry load is Remington Golden Sabre 125-grain +P, which chronos at 941 fps from my gun. The handload is a 125-grain coated LTC from Missouri Bullets over 4.8 grains of HP-38, which Hodgdon gives as a max standard-pressure load. It runs right at 800 fps. 100 rounds of this in a practice session is no problem, accuracy is fine, fouling comes out with a bore snake and it has the same POI as the GS load.

[Inspector71]

Ed Harris 38 Spl. articles are below. Ed is a rather prolific writer who has worked on the NRA technical departments, Sturm, Ruger & co, and as an independent consultant.

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/38wadcutterQA.htm

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/Revisiting%20The%20Double-End%20Wadcutter%20and%20the%20FBI%20Load.htm

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/Button%20nose%20vs%20Button.htm

https://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/theversatile38special.htm

After all these years of handgunning, I would have to agree with Ed Harris. If it really came down to just one handgun, I think I would keep my slicked up four-inch 686 and let go my G17. Both are very dependable, but I can accomplish a wider variety of tasks with that .38/357 bore. Must be the influence of all those Bill Jordan books/articles that I read as a young puppy.

[Velo Dog]

Brass Fetcher included the old Remington Multi-Ball load in the .38 Special testing. The #000 pellets went 16 inches.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/38%20Special/38%20Special%20Ammo%20Selection.html

[GAP]

Are there any known reports or experiences of the 148gr Federal Gold Medal Full Wadcutter successfully penetrating bone to stop threats? I rarely carry my 642, but when I do I prefer the wadcutters due to the obvious recoil difference.

Are there any concerns with the “softness” of the lead?

Would I be wise to select a full wadcutter that is plated?


Thank you

[revchuck38]

Actually, from what I've read, a 200-grain .38 Special at about 600 fps from a snubbie was a thing for a while.

46410

[the Schwartz]

Actually, from what I've read, a 200-grain .38 Special at about 600 fps from a snubbie was a thing for a while.

46410

Neat box and ammo...

Often referred to as "widow-makers", .38 LRN bullets (generally in the weight range of 158 - 200 grains) were known to pass through human bodies without doing much damage. Gladly, we have much better options before us these days.

[revchuck38]

Neat box and ammo...

Often referred to as "widow-makers", .38 LRN bullets (generally in the weight range of 158 - 200 grains) were known to pass through human bodies without doing much damage. Gladly, we have much better options before us these days.

That's the load I bring up any time I hear people fussing about how the twist rate in the original 9x19 M&Ps was too slow to stabilize 115-grain bullets.

[the Schwartz]

That's the load I bring up any time I hear people fussing about how the twist rate in the original 9x19 M&Ps was too slow to stabilize 115-grain bullets.

Yeah, rev, I remember those complaints―albeit kind of vaguely―what was the twist rate? 1 rotation in 16" or something along those lines?

For a 0.355" diameter 115-grain bullet having a length of 0.53", the Greehill formula says a twist rate of 1 rotation in 35 inches is needed....maybe later I'll run it through the Miller stabilization formula for grins.

[revchuck38]

Yeah, rev, I remember those complaints―albeit kind of vaguely―what was the twist rate? 1 rotation in 16" or something along those lines?

It was 1 in 18-3/4", the same as S&W .357 bore revolvers...like the M36 that stabilized the 200-grain LRN just fine at 600 fps.

[the Schwartz]

It was 1 in 18-3/4", the same as S&W .357 bore revolvers...like the M36 that stabilized the 200-grain LRN just fine at 600 fps.

Yeah, now I dismember...geez, too young to be forgetting stuff like that already. In any event, 1 rotation in 18 3/4 inches is more than enough to stabilize a very short bullet like the 115-grain 9mm FMJ/JHP against its overturning moment.

[pettypace]

Actually, from what I've read, a 200-grain .38 Special at about 600 fps from a snubbie was a thing for a while.

46410

Using the "expedient equation" from the excellent Quantitative Ammunition Selection by the Schwartz, I get a predicted penetration of 29" for one of those heavy RN bullets. And the predicted wound mass is 34 grams. Of course, without tumbling or deforming, penetration is likely through and through and much of that predicted wound mass will be wounding thin air. So, I think of it more as a "potential" wound mass.

For what it's worth, Western also once loaded the same 200 grain bullet in the .38 S&W cartridge to be used in solid frame revolvers only. Hatcher lists that load at 610 ft/s from a 6" barrel -- so, maybe 550 ft/s from a snubby. That gives a predicted 26" of penetration and potential wound mass of 31 grams. That's not bad from a cartridge some refer to as the .38 Short & Weak. But if they had simply traded that big RN for a 200 grain hard-cast wadcutter they could have dropped the penetration to about 21" and upped the wound mass to 37 grams. Loaded in the little S&W I-frame (a bit smaller than a J-frame) "Terrier" snubby, it would have made a pretty nasty pocket pistol for the mid-1930s.

[the Schwartz]

Using the "expedient equation" from the excellent Quantitative Ammunition Selection by the Schwartz, I get a predicted penetration of 29" for one of those heavy RN bullets. And the predicted wound mass is 34 grams. Of course, without tumbling or deforming, penetration is likely through and through and much of that predicted wound mass will be wounding thin air. So, I think of it more as a "potential" wound mass.

For what it's worth, Western also once loaded the same 200 grain bullet in the .38 S&W cartridge to be used in solid frame revolvers only. Hatcher lists that load at 610 ft/s from a 6" barrel -- so, maybe 550 ft/s from a snubby. That gives a predicted 26" of penetration and potential wound mass of 31 grams. That's not bad from a cartridge some refer to as the .38 Short & Weak. But if they had simply traded that big RN for a 200 grain hard-cast wadcutter they could have dropped the penetration to about 21" and upped the wound mass to 37 grams. Loaded in the little S&W I-frame (a bit smaller than a J-frame) "Terrier" snubby, it would have made a pretty nasty pocket pistol for the mid-1930s.

Thanks. :)

Running the Western .38S&W projectile as a .358", 200-grain LRN at 610 fps through all three bullet penetration models, the predicted values for maximum penetration depth (PEN in inches) and total wound mass (TWM in grams) are:

Q-model: PEN: 29.30 inches; TWM: 34.60 grams

mTHOR: PEN: 28.74 inches; TWM: 33.94 grams

MacPherson: PEN: 30.86 inches; TWM: 36.53 grams

[pettypace]

I just checked the Buffalo Bore web site and was surprised to find they offer a pretty fierce load for the .38 S&W (not the .38 Special!): a 125 grain hard cast SWC at 1030 ft/s from a 6" barrel and 874 ft/s from a snubby. From their ad:


Depending on how much clothing must be penetrated and how much bone is encountered, expect 22 to 30 inches of straight-line penetration in mammalian tissue with this load.

I'm guessing what that range of penetration really depends on is barrel length. But OK.

From a snubby I get about 24" of penetration and about 27 grams of wound mass for the BB load.

So, what if BB had instead loaded a 200 grain wadcutter at, say, just 500 ft/s? For that, I get about 20" of penetration and 34 grams of wound mass. Seems to me that would be a more effective load, except maybe through windshield glass.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned avoiding some fierce BB wadcutter load for the .38 Special because of excessive recoil. So, I wondered how the recoil energy of their 125 gr SWC @ 874 ft/s .38 S&W load would compare to a suggested 200 gr WC @ 500 ft/s. I had to go back to Hatcher to refresh my memory of recoil energy. But it looks like you just compare the squares of the momenta. So, I hope I'm doing this right:

(200*500)^2/(125*874)^2 ==> 0.84

I think that means the suggested heavy wadcutter at low velocity load would have only about 84% of the felt recoil of the fierce BB load. That looks like a win-win-win to me: less (over)penetration, less felt recoil, and more wound mass. What's not to like about that?

[4given]

I've settled on a handload for my 642. The carry load is Remington Golden Sabre 125-grain +P, which chronos at 941 fps from my gun. The handload is a 125-grain coated LTC from Missouri Bullets over 4.8 grains of HP-38, which Hodgdon gives as a max standard-pressure load. It runs right at 800 fps. 100 rounds of this in a practice session is no problem, accuracy is fine, fouling comes out with a bore snake and it has the same POI as the GS load.


Have you or anyone else seen any credible testing of the Remington Golden Sabre 125-grain +P round in a snubby? It seems to compare favorably with some of Doc's recommended rounds in the Lucky Gunner tests and performs similarly in an old tnoutdoors9 test. But of course these are amateur tests done with synthetic gel so the results are somewhat suspect.

I have several boxes of these and they shoot well in my S&W 638.

[revchuck38]

Have you or anyone else seen any credible testing of the Remington Golden Sabre 125-grain +P round in a snubby? It seems to compare favorably with some of Doc's recommended rounds in the Lucky Gunner tests and performs similarly in an old tnoutdoors9 test. But of course these are amateur tests done with synthetic gel so the results are somewhat suspect.

I have several boxes of these and they shoot well in my S&W 638.

I have not. I chose them because penetration and expansion were very close to the Winchester Ranger load in the Lucky Gunner test and they’re usually available, which can’t be said for the Winchester load. I might switch to the Winchester load when I find some, the GS load is too long to work with speedloaders. That’s not a major issue with J frames, but it’d be nice to have that option.

[jtcarm]

I *assumed* there was a typo - either on the bullet weight, or on which bullet shape. I haven’t seen a 158gr full wadcutter, but I’m sure it could be done.

I’ve cast some 171-grain .38 wadcutters by leaving the plug in an M&P hollow base mould.

I haven’t done any ballistic testing, but they shot OK.

[Velo Dog]

Have you or anyone else seen any credible testing of the Remington Golden Sabre 125-grain +P round in a snubby?

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/38%20Special/38%20Special%20Ammo%20Selection.html

[4given]

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/38%20Special/38%20Special%20Ammo%20Selection.html

The Golden Sabers seem to only penetrate around the 10" mark. Anybody here use the Double Tap Hardcast 148gr WC? They have them in stock at my LGS.

[4given]

The 150 grain Buffalo bore wad cutter, to me, has as much or more recoil than the 135 grain gold dot 38 special.

The trade off of a target wad cutter is perhaps a bit less performance for a much more shootable and practice-able cartridge.

If one is inclined to deal with the recoil they are likely better off with a quality hp like the 135+p GD.

If Buffalo bore loaded that round to around 700 ft per second out of it 2 inch gun ( like the Fed GMM) with its sharp shoulder and hard cast projectile then they would have something.

I carry GMM for its shootability and the high QC provided by the manufacturer. I generally avoid boutique manufacturers for carry rounds.

Maybe this round has the specs you desire:

DoubleTap 38 Special 148gr Full WADCUTTER MATCH
Velocity: 800fps / 4" Ruger GP-100
6.0" bbl S&W - 855fps
2.0" bbl - 740fps
Bullet: MATCH GRADE Full Wadcutter 148gr. Hardcast

[Navin Johnson]

Maybe this round has the specs you desire:

DoubleTap 38 Special 148gr Full WADCUTTER MATCH
Velocity: 800fps / 4" Ruger GP-100
6.0" bbl S&W - 855fps
2.0" bbl - 740fps
Bullet: MATCH GRADE Full Wadcutter 148gr. Hardcast


Thanks but...... Still in the violent recoil range out of a 12 oz revolver..... The purpose of a wadcutter is the ease of shooting...... With heavy recoil I'd rather just carry a quality hollow point which likely will perform better.

Not to mention earlier in the thread double taps own customer service explaining their quality.....

[4given]

Thanks but...... Still in the violent recoil range out of a 12 oz revolver..... The purpose of a wadcutter is the ease of shooting...... With heavy recoil I'd rather just carry a quality hollow point which likely will perform better.

Not to mention earlier in the thread double taps own customer service explaining their quality.....

OK. I didn't think 40 FPS would make much of a difference in recoil. Good to know.

[revchuck38]

OK. I didn't think 40 FPS would make much of a difference in recoil. Good to know.

FWIW, Federal wadcutter chronographs ~635 fps from my 642. That's a good bit more than 40 fps difference.

[4given]

FWIW, Federal wadcutter chronographs ~635 fps from my 642. That's a good bit more than 40 fps difference.

That's true. He stated around 700 FPS so I was going off of that. I was thinking about trying the DoubleTap round as I thought they were not too snappy. I think I'll pass on them now.

[badge851]

What I choose to do is to shoot THE MOST ACCURATE hollowpoint ammunition in my two 38 Special snubbies. My two guns are...
• Primary (https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-bodyguard-38-crimson-trace)
• Bug (https://charterfirearms.com/collections/undercover/products/13811-undercover-blue-dao)

They both shoot the best with Hornady® Critical Defense® 110gr FTX® ammunition; albeit with standard pressure in the primary and +p flavor in the BUG.

[4given]

That's true. He stated around 700 FPS so I was going off of that. I was thinking about trying the DoubleTap round as I thought they were not too snappy. I think I'll pass on them now.

Changed my mind and tried the Double Tap. Here is a link to my short review: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?40592-Speer-GD-38-Special-P-vs-DoubleTap-38-Special-148gr-HC-WC-in-1-7-8-quot-amp-4-quot-BBLs

[jtcarm]

Two words: wad cutters.

[revchuck38]

Two words: wad cutters.

Actually, it's one word (wadcutter). :) They're great if POA = POI. My 642 requires 125-grain bullets to do that.

[revolvergeek]

I'm required to carry "quality expanding ammunition" so wadcutters aren't an option for me. I like the 130gr PDX-1 from my LCR. Sample size of one, but it worked as advertised in a chest shot of a pitbull that announced it's presence by biting my forearm.

If I could carry wadcutters, I probably would.

I know that this is an old post, but if you want something that shoots more like wadcutters but might satisfy the stated requirement, check out the Hornady 158 XTP .38 spl load. Mild recoil and blast, and the nose typically deforms a little back towards something like a ragged wadcutter. No mushrooms, but accurate and nice to shoot with plenty penetration.

Personally for snubbies:
- Modern steel frame guns or airweights; 130 HST loaded and 130 Winchester PDX1 +p for reloads
- Older revolvers or Airlights; Remington 148 WC (because I can get it the easiest / cheapest) loaded and either Winchester 130 Defender or 158 LSW

[Chuck Haggard]

I think I'm down to my last few rat-holed Federal Nyclad 125 "Chief's Special" 125 grain loads from the 1990's. I just like them because they are decent to shoot and the hollow point is huge and maybe might expand. Gold Dot short barrel loads are replacing them and I use some generic 148 wadcutters for practice. POI hasn't been a problem at the short ranges I've used them for.

After having tested those I was never a fan. When they expanded they tended to under penetrate rather badly, like 6-7" in gelatin. They often failed to expand through heavy clothing. Weirdly enough they would still under penetrate sometimes even then.

[Chuck Haggard]

Actually, from what I've read, a 200-grain .38 Special at about 600 fps from a snubbie was a thing for a while.

46410

One of my old chiefs bounced two of those off of a bad guy's face one day, from a 4" model 10.

They were also famous being completely unable to penetrate car doors, windshields, etc.

The blunt nose shape made them very stable so they stayed nose forward during penetration, and slid through tissue with minimal disruption vs crushing it. I've shot rabbits with that round and they were unimpressed. I quickly quit using them even for that job because wounding the bunnies is inhumane.

[Jhp147]

After having tested those I was never a fan. When they expanded they tended to under penetrate rather badly, like 6-7" in gelatin. They often failed to expand through heavy clothing. Weirdly enough they would still under penetrate sometimes even then.
Appreciate the info. I think I mostly hoped they would expand based on the marketing at the time and the size of the hole. Guess I should finish them off in practice and put the modern stuff in place.

[camsdaddy]

One of my old chiefs bounced two of those off of a bad guy's face one day, from a 4" model 10.

They were also famous being completely unable to penetrate car doors, windshields, etc.

The blunt nose shape made them very stable so they stayed nose forward during penetration, and slid through tissue with minimal disruption vs crushing it. I've shot rabbits with that round and they were unimpressed. I quickly quit using them even for that job because wounding the bunnies is inhumane.

Have you shot animals with a standard wadcutter?

[Lester Polfus]

Have you shot animals with a standard wadcutter?

Not Chuck, but I have found .38 wadcutters to work great on rabbit and grouse sized game. This is one of the reasons why a 4” .357 is such a great all around outdoors gun.h

[Chuck Haggard]

Have you shot animals with a standard wadcutter?

Yes, quite a few. Rabbits mostly, but also squirrels, prairie dogs, gophers, racoons, and have put down several injured deer with them.

Small game has a distinct bang-flop effect where RNL leaves them running away.

CCI markets the SGB loading for small game, it's the Small Game Bullet, basically a flat nose .22lr 40gr high velocity solid. It also works better on small game than RN.

I believe that bullet size vs target size, on small game there is enough extra temp cavity to make a significant difference in incapacitation.

Temporary cavity effects are often looked at in just the gel blocks, when they need to be considered relative to the target. We know that something like a .22Hornet will blow a prairie dog in half out to 200 yards, drop a coyote in his tracks with a good hit, not so much with a bad hit, but if you shoot a cape buffalo with one then you're about to have a very bad day.


My other reason for favoring WCs for low recoil snub work is reading and training with Jim Cirillo. As Jim noted, and I've seen numerous times in real life, RN bullets often glance off of skulls.

I've shot a number of deer with Remington WCs. From a 642 they "stick" when they hit the skull, leave a large entry wound, don't exit, and pulp the brain. Instant lights out. On double lung shots I've noted that on the entry side WCs through a rib (deer ribs are much large and more robust that people ribs for anyone who hasn't seen one) make a splintered hole large than the bullet, will penetrate all the way through, have enough energy to penetrate the rib on the far side and get stuck under the skin. JHPs that I've made similar shots with, like Critical Defense, tend to leave a bullet sized clean hole in the rib on the entry side, like it's been hit with a drill bit.

I've seen very, very few JHPs actually expand from a snub. Even one's designed for that use. Many old school loads, such as the 110gr +P+, that do expand fail to penetrate nearly enough for my comfort.

[DocGKR]

Well said! Folks, pay attention to what Chuck stated above.

[Super77]

For those interested it looks like Modway has the HST Micro projectiles for sale as components:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1022626550?pid=683238

[SCCY Marshal]

For those interested it looks like Modway has the HST Micro projectiles for sale as components:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1022626550?pid=683238

Good lookin' out! Just ordered 500. Will play with a few in .357 brass for fun and then try velocity matching the rest to Federal's factory load in .38 brass.

[RevolverRob]

For carry, I'm working through a stash of Speer Gold Dot short barrels, which will probably be my last.

But I've loaded up a couple of hundred Hornady 148-grain hollow-based wadcutters over ~3.5 grains of VV N330 for work out of my 2.5" 638. And I have a thousand more Missouri Bullet Co. coated 148-grain WCs on the way. I'm basically at the point where I don't view anything besides wadcutters as being relevant for carrying in snub-nosed revolvers. In a 3"+ gun, I'll go to a hollowpoint bullet, but sub-3", there isn't any point. They aren't going fast enough to reliably expand AND penetrate.

[revolvergeek]

One of my old chiefs bounced two of those off of a bad guy's face one day, from a 4" model 10.

They were also famous being completely unable to penetrate car doors, windshields, etc.

The blunt nose shape made them very stable so they stayed nose forward during penetration, and slid through tissue with minimal disruption vs crushing it. I've shot rabbits with that round and they were unimpressed. I quickly quit using them even for that job because wounding the bunnies is inhumane.

Interesting. I have read a lot about those 200 Super Police loads and people either loved them or hated them. Askins talks about shooting a Nazi with one to good effect, but as I recall correctly it didn't kill the guy. I always remember reading that test in old Gun Digest Law Enforcement annual with they shot the 200 grn Super Police load at a car and it wouldn't penetrate a car window and just dented the fender.

I have never shot anything living with 200 grn .38 spl loads, but have played around with them a lot doing some handloading experiments with a friend of mine. My model 14 loved that old lyman 200 grain bullet at about 650fps and shot it more accurately than anything else that I have tried in it yet. You can get a lot of soft tissue penetration (in theory) out of a 200 grn LSW at around 700 fps from a .38. Always wanted to try them on a hog but the opportunity has not presented itself. Glynn Fryxell wrote an article about them and their use in a slaughterhouse (very specialized use). There is also a thread discussing shooting jack rabbits with the 200grn LRN over on castboolits forum, and the gist seemed to be they worked great if they stayed slow enough to be unstable, but if pushed too fast they just drilled right through like you describe.


For those interested it looks like Modway has the HST Micro projectiles for sale as components:

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1022626550?pid=683238

Thanks for that! I am going to order some to play with. I bought a bunch of 9mm 124 and 147 HST from Rocky Mountain Reloading a while back. I have been sorely tempted to pull down some old 38 +p+ 147 Hydra Shock ammo and reload it with 147 HSTs just to see what happens. Seems like it should work ...

I just picked up a box of Bayou Bullets 135 grain button nose wadcutters to play around with making practice ammo.

[Chuck Haggard]

If you are talking about Askins shooting the German soldier through his pack, pretty sure he used a hot handload for that job.

[willie]

Askins had been working for the Border Patrol when he joined the Army. He elected to carry a .38 Spl, his Border Patrol issue caliber. My guess is that in the Army he was carrying whatever ammo the BP issued. He died in San Antonio in 1999.

[Balla006]

P.154 in Unrepentent Sinner Askins states he was carrying a Colt New Service (with some custom modifications), as issued to the Border Patrol, in .38 Spl caliber. It was loaded with a 200-gr bullet put together by Winchester. He shot at the German Soldier twice. One bullet got stuck in the German Soldier’s pack. The second bullet entered his lungs.

[revolvergeek]

If you are talking about Askins shooting the German soldier through his pack, pretty sure he used a hot handload for that job.

Yes sir that might be it. I shouldn't have called him a Nazi because not all German soldiers were Nazis. Askins wrote it up in the story 'Wing Shooting' on page 93 of Colonel Askins on Pistols and Revolvers. He just says he had his custom .38 New Service loaded with 'some Winchester 200 grain loads, the bullets capped with lubaloy jackets' and that the went in below the right pectoral and exited through the left shoulder blade. Since he referenced them as Winchester I guess I just assumed that they were factory loads, but it doesn't say in this text there one way nor the other. He mentions on page 47 that he 'one time killed member of the Wehrmacht with the .38 spl' so I apparently was wrong about it not killing the soldier.

For anybody that isn't familiar with it, here is the custom New Service.
54841

[314159]

Of course, all members of the Wehrmacht pledged an oath of allegiance to Adolf Hitler. Therefore, I think it's completely fair to refer to any member of the WW II German forces as Nazis. So shooting Nazis works for me. Sorry for the drift.

[Buckshot]

Trust me, Charley Askins lost no sleep differentiating between Nazi party members and Wehrmacht draftees. He wasn't the most "politically sesnsitive" of folks.

[revchuck38]

Just FYI, chrono data from my 642: Winchester Ranger 130-grain bonded JHP (RA38B), 802 fps/SD 16. That's over 100 fps slower than the 125-grain Golden Saber it's replacing and slower than the practice handloads I made up. :rolleyes:

[03RN]

Just FYI, chrono data from my 642: Winchester Ranger 130-grain bonded JHP (RA38B), 802 fps/SD 16. That's over 100 fps slower than the 125-grain Golden Saber it's replacing and slower than the practice handloads I made up. :rolleyes:

Wow, thats slow.

[revchuck38]

Wow, thats slow.

Yeah, but if it works, who cares? :)

[The Fuzz]

I carry a 642 Smith on a regular basis as a back up. Like Chuck, I have not seen any round tested in various medias including calibrated gel expand reliably. The only round I've seen expand at all was the 130 +P Bonded Ranger and even that wasn't impressive. The 135 +P Gold Dot I've seen open just a tad but not all the way. If I could get away with carrying a Full Wad Cutter I would but I have to carry a hollow point of some kind. I have a couple boxes of 135 +P Gold Dots at home but I carry Federal 158 SWCLHP +P in my snub. It's a hollow point so it fits our policy but cuts a wad cutter hole in people. I don't expect much expansion if any at all from it. The Gold Dot 135 is a good load also just felt like going old school this year and in the end we are really splitting hairs between these rounds. They are all better than the Police Widow Makers.

Off topic I have been around for tested for the 135 357 mag from a snub and found it expanded well. So did the classic 125 SJHP 357 mag from Federal. When we clocked them they gave us a 150-250 fps boast depending on the load compared to the 38 loads that were loaded with the same bullet. That little extra velocity does help to make a bullet designed for a 38 expand. I sold my 640 Pro years back because it was beating my hands. As Pat Rogers use to say "There is no such thing as a free lunch".

[FNFAN]

If I could get away with carrying a Full Wad Cutter I would but I have to carry a hollow point of some kind. I have a couple boxes of 135 +P Gold Dots at home but I carry Federal 158 SWCLHP +P in my snub. It's a hollow point so it fits our policy but cuts a wad cutter hole in people. I don't expect much expansion if any at all from it.


Curious whether you could use the jewish HST .38 Micro's. They shoot just above point of aim in my 642 and are definitely a HP.

60739

[The Fuzz]

Curious whether you could use the jewish HST .38 Micro's. They shoot just above point of aim in my 642 and are definitely a HP.

60739

Those would fit our specs but when I asked Chuck about them. He didn't seem to impressed with them.

[peterb]

Curious whether you could use the jewish HST .38 Micro's.

?

[revchuck38]

?

Looks like an autocorrect typo.

[Buckeye63]

I have two 38spl snubbies that I will not fire +P through.. one is a Model 12 ( steel cylinder) and my older 36 (3inch ), that my Dad left me .. which I don’t see carrying them for SD .. but Id more likely carry 158gr LSWC .. both shoot point to aim ... I do have several hundred of 158gr JHP reloads , I loaded with Winchester bullets .. that I tested in wet newspaper print that deformed and somewhat expanded... these were tested in a three inch barreled 38spl revolver I owned at the time .. and were loaded at standard velocity...

I carry a 12.5 oz Charter aluminum framed revolver quite a bit .. I use Hornady 110gr FTX standard pressure ammo .. it has little recoil and expands realizability in ballistic gel ...

My two other 38spl snubbies ( 856UL & Charter Police) I carry Federal 130gr HST +P ... very soft shooting and expands excellent in ballistic gel ..

In my Ruger LCR 357 I carry Remington 125gr +P SJHP .. which is a stout round ...

This is where the LCR327 steps in .. fullhouse Federal Gold dot 327 Fed loads recoil less than 38spl +P and is a powerful round .. and with 32 H&R FTX recoils less than standard pressure 38 spl ...

To my amazement it hasn’t taken over in the snubbie world ..

[jandbj]

Buckeye63
Any updates on the 856? I keep hoping to see new posts in that thread. Especially now that the 3” UL models are making their way into the pipeline.

[Buckeye63]

Buckeye63
Any updates on the 856? I keep hoping to see new posts in that thread. Especially now that the 3” UL models are making their way into the pipeline.

Other than just 6 rounds of 158gr LRN .. nothing to share .. still down pretty much in my back.. awaiting to see a neurosurgeon later this week ...

[revchuck38]

Other than just 6 rounds of 158gr LRN .. nothing to share .. still down pretty much in my back.. awaiting to see a neurosurgeon later this week ...

Hope the doc squares you away quickly!

[Buckeye63]

Hope the doc squares you away quickly!

This is being on for 45 years ... off and on .. I afraid.. its cut time .Sorta been holding off for bionics ..
Like the 6 million dollar man ;-)

[Spartan1980]

Yes, quite a few. Rabbits mostly, but also squirrels, prairie dogs, gophers, racoons, and have put down several injured deer with them.

Small game has a distinct bang-flop effect where RNL leaves them running away.

CCI markets the SGB loading for small game, it's the Small Game Bullet, basically a flat nose .22lr 40gr high velocity solid. It also works better on small game than RN..

My other reason for favoring WCs for low recoil snub work is reading and training with Jim Cirillo. As Jim noted, and I've seen numerous times in real life, RN bullets often glance off of skulls.

I've shot a number of deer with Remington WCs. From a 642 they "stick" when they hit the skull, leave a large entry wound, don't exit, and pulp the brain. Instant lights out. On double lung shots I've noted that on the entry side WCs through a rib (deer ribs are much large and more robust that people ribs for anyone who hasn't seen one) make a splintered hole large than the bullet, will penetrate all the way through, have enough energy to penetrate the rib on the far side and get stuck under the skin. JHPs that I've made similar shots with, like Critical Defense, tend to leave a bullet sized clean hole in the rib on the entry side, like it's been hit with a drill bit.

How would a 158 SWC compare to a full WC? I have a 358156GC mold and a supply of lead. I’ve only shot paper with them so far. It drops bullets with nice flat faces and sharp corners. I’m sorely tempted to make a light target load with them for snubby work.

[Buckeye63]

Buckeye63
Any updates on the 856? I keep hoping to see new posts in that thread. Especially now that the 3” UL models are making their way into the pipeline.

Epidural.. has got me on my feet .. recently hung up the cane .. waiting on results of cervical MRI ... ran about 50 or so rounds through the little 856UL .. 158gr LSWC .. standard pressure.. and a cylinder full of 130gr HST function test ... pleasant shooting.. I replaced the stock grips with Uncle Mikes Compact grips .. I know thats not much shooting.. but tbe range got a bit crowded... and I had a couple of other guns to shoot ..

62109

[JRV]

Tho only round that shoots to POA in my 642 is 158gr LSWC.

So, 158gr LSWC from Federal. Pretty soft shooting, reloads easily from a speedloader or strip, and a big, flat nose.

Federal just confirmed via email that the 158 gr SWC loading (No. 38C) has been permanently discontinued.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/025/543/eca.png

With Remington's 158 gr "target" SWC off the market as well... that's kind of a bummer. Slow 158s are the only loads that hit the top of my front sight in either my 642 or my Agent. I guess reloading will commence once components rematerialize.

[RJ]

Ruger LCR 5401 .38 with Federal Gold Medal Match Wadcutters. I shoot the GMM for practice as well as carry, in a pocket A Holster. Front sight replaced with a Novak Big Dot.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191122/dbb901d03718ccdaf2f00f00e9832668.jpg

I’ve not been able to source any more Federal GMM, and I’m down to my last box. I did manage to order 3 boxes (the limit) of S&B 148 gr WC from sgammo.

Any inputs on where this might print, as regards POI, vs the Federal GMM?

When the S&B arrives I’ll shoot it in my LCR next chance I get, and report back, but I was just curious if anyone’s used this ammo before.

[BN]

I’ve not been able to source any more Federal GMM, and I’m down to my last box. I did manage to order 3 boxes (the limit) of S&B 148 gr WC from sgammo.

Any inputs on where this might print, as regards POI, vs the Federal GMM?

When the S&B arrives I’ll shoot it in my LCR next chance I get, and report back, but I was just curious if anyone’s used this ammo before.

Save your Federal for carry and practice with the S&B. I chronographed some S&B a few years ago and it was a good bit slower than Fed.

[4given]

How would a 158 SWC compare to a full WC? I have a 358156GC mold and a supply of lead. I’ve only shot paper with them so far. It drops bullets with nice flat faces and sharp corners. I’m sorely tempted to make a light target load with them for snubby work.

Depending on the design, a 158 gr SWC can have a nice wide flat meplat. Should work OK I would think as long as it shoots to your sights. A lot of game has been harvested with them.

[4given]

For you reloaders, I experimented with some of these 100% meplat wadcutters from Matt's bullets a while back.

64095

Here is a link https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=307&zenid=2mblm1ktftc7t5k9f5jncq3g46

This bullet has nice sharp shoulders and a handy crimp groove. I asked Matt to cast them from a hard alloy. They shot accurately from the M638 and pretty close to POA at 10 or 15 yards.

This one caught me eye as well but I have never played with them .. yet ...

64096

https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=226&zenid=2mblm1ktftc7t5k9f5jncq3g46

[WDR]

I’ve not been able to source any more Federal GMM, and I’m down to my last box. I did manage to order 3 boxes (the limit) of S&B 148 gr WC from sgammo.

Any inputs on where this might print, as regards POI, vs the Federal GMM?

When the S&B arrives I’ll shoot it in my LCR next chance I get, and report back, but I was just curious if anyone’s used this ammo before.

I bought a box once. It was accurate stuff, but dirty and smokey, and obviously "mouse fart" power factor... I have not shot FGMM to compare, but I have shot Winchester and Remington WC, and I'd consider it comparable, if a bit slow (guessing there, I didn't chrono any). Shoots about the same as other 148gr HBWC fodder, including my handloads.

[03RN]

Depending on the design, a 158 gr SWC can have a nice wide flat meplat. Should work OK I would think as long as it shoots to your sights. A lot of game has been harvested with them.
Rimrock makes a swc-wn I use
64101

[Spartan1980]

Rimrock makes a swc-wn I use
64101

My mold is quite similar to those. Might make a winter project out of it. I have a decent stash of Winchester WST which works great for Hormady 148 HBWC, so I'm betting it'll work well with these at modest velocity.

[4given]

Rimrock makes a swc-wn I use
64101

Those look real nice. 158 grain?

[03RN]

Those look real nice. 158 grain?

Yes, they shoot real nice.

[jws]

For you reloaders, I experimented with some of these 100% meplat wadcutters from Matt's bullets a while back.

64095

Here is a link https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=307&zenid=2mblm1ktftc7t5k9f5jncq3g46

This bullet has nice sharp shoulders and a handy crimp groove. I asked Matt to cast them from a hard alloy. They shot accurately from the M638 and pretty close to POA at 10 or 15 yards.

This one caught me eye as well but I have never played with them .. yet ...

64096

https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=226&zenid=2mblm1ktftc7t5k9f5jncq3g46

I have loaded about 100 of the 157 grain wadcutters. I didn’t take any pictures of the targets but if I remember correctly they were pretty spot on for my 4” M64. I have also loaded about 100 of Matt’s 160 grain RF bullets with similar results.

Link to 160 grain RF: https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=266&zenid=2mblm1ktftc7t5k9f5jncq3g46

Pic of reloads:
64129

I will add here that the customer service at Matt’s bullets is fantastic. I have ordered multiple times from him and all have been good experiences. One order contained bullets that looked to have been damaged I assume during shipping. I emailed him about it, gave an approximate number of damaged bullets, and sent a picture explaining what was going on and he sent me more than enough new bullets to replace the damaged bullets in short order. It’s probably about time to place another order...

[4given]

I have loaded about 100 of the 157 grain wadcutters. I didn’t take any pictures of the targets but if I remember correctly they were pretty spot on for my 4” M64. I have also loaded about 100 of Matt’s 160 grain RF bullets with similar results.

Link to 160 grain RF: https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=266&zenid=2mblm1ktftc7t5k9f5jncq3g46

Pic of reloads:
64129

I will add here that the customer service at Matt’s bullets is fantastic. I have ordered multiple times from him and all have been good experiences. One order contained bullets that looked to have been damaged I assume during shipping. I emailed him about it, gave an approximate number of damaged bullets, and sent a picture explaining what was going on and he sent me more than enough new bullets to replace the damaged bullets in short order. It’s probably about time to place another order...

Good looking bullets. The wadcutter looks like a sledge hammer!

[revolvergeek]

A couple years back i tried several differently slugs over 4.5 grains of Unique out of a 2" Model 15. I really like that 157 WC. I don't have notes on the OAL because I just crimped them all with a healthy roll crimp in the crimp groove. The two Matt's bullets shot better than my home cast Lee. The 178 load is probably a little into +P territory, but I was shooting them in a k-frame so I wasn't worried about that.

- 161 lee rnfp Fps:771.8 Fpe: 213
- 157 Matt's WC Fps: 805 Fpe: 226
- 178 Matt's Keith Fps: 762 Fpe: 229

[LtDave]

I’ve not been able to source any more Federal GMM, and I’m down to my last box. I did manage to order 3 boxes (the limit) of S&B 148 gr WC from sgammo.

Any inputs on where this might print, as regards POI, vs the Federal GMM?

When the S&B arrives I’ll shoot it in my LCR next chance I get, and report back, but I was just curious if anyone’s used this ammo before.

In my 640 pro at 15 yards the S&B shoots within 1/4” for elevation, about 1” different in windage than GMM. In my 642 Pro, the S&B shot to POA at 15 yards, the GMM shot 1.25” to the right. Group size definitely favors the GMM.

[RJ]

I’ve not been able to source any more Federal GMM, and I’m down to my last box. I did manage to order 3 boxes (the limit) of S&B 148 gr WC from sgammo.

Any inputs on where this might print, as regards POI, vs the Federal GMM?

When the S&B arrives I’ll shoot it in my LCR next chance I get, and report back, but I was just curious if anyone’s used this ammo before.

From my Training Journal, 12/7/20: I had not shot my little snubby in quite a while. I took a box of the new S&B 148 gr WC to try out and compare with my carry ammo, Federal Gold Medal Match 158 gr WC.

Perceived recoil between the Federal GMM and this ammo seemed about the same. Smokeyness is about the same. Maybe the S&B has a bit more smoke, but it's nothing like the Magtech I tried that one time. I give up something like 60 fps (660 vs 600) of velocity in the S&B. I haven't priced Federal GMM lately but I can't source it at the moment. So I'm going to use the S&B for practice, and keep the GMM for carry, as they seem to print the same.

Speaking of:

What I was surprised at was how consistently both ammo types printed high and left. Not very common for me lol. Perhaps I had forgotten how to shoot a revolver? I dunno. I did a couple cylinders on a B8, then a 5x5 drill, and my groups were trending about 3" up, and 3" left, using a center dot hold at 5 yards. Weird.

I adjusted my hold to compensate, and shot this group with the S&B at 5 yards, putting the fat Novak Tritium front sight about 3" low and right: (the circle on this custom target I created is an NRA B-8 black 8 ring size, 5.54" in diameter)

64719

[revchuck38]

RJ - My 642 shoots about 3" high at 5 yards as well. 125-130-grain ammo shoots to POA, so that's what I carry.

[Norville]

Hadn’t seen this posted anywhere else, some recent gel testing in ballistic gelatin:

https://revolverguy.com/38-snubby-ammo/

I wish he had used the heavy clothing or 4LD instead of bare gel, but it’s better than nothing.

[Lost River]

Yes, quite a few. Rabbits mostly, but also squirrels, prairie dogs, gophers, racoons, and have put down several injured deer with them.

Small game has a distinct bang-flop effect where RNL leaves them running away.

CCI markets the SGB loading for small game, it's the Small Game Bullet, basically a flat nose .22lr 40gr high velocity solid. It also works better on small game than RN.

I believe that bullet size vs target size, on small game there is enough extra temp cavity to make a significant difference in incapacitation.

Temporary cavity effects are often looked at in just the gel blocks, when they need to be considered relative to the target. We know that something like a .22Hornet will blow a prairie dog in half out to 200 yards, drop a coyote in his tracks with a good hit, not so much with a bad hit, but if you shoot a cape buffalo with one then you're about to have a very bad day.


My other reason for favoring WCs for low recoil snub work is reading and training with Jim Cirillo. As Jim noted, and I've seen numerous times in real life, RN bullets often glance off of skulls.

I've shot a number of deer with Remington WCs. From a 642 they "stick" when they hit the skull, leave a large entry wound, don't exit, and pulp the brain. Instant lights out. On double lung shots I've noted that on the entry side WCs through a rib (deer ribs are much large and more robust that people ribs for anyone who hasn't seen one) make a splintered hole large than the bullet, will penetrate all the way through, have enough energy to penetrate the rib on the far side and get stuck under the skin. JHPs that I've made similar shots with, like Critical Defense, tend to leave a bullet sized clean hole in the rib on the entry side, like it's been hit with a drill bit.

I've seen very, very few JHPs actually expand from a snub. Even one's designed for that use. Many old school loads, such as the 110gr +P+, that do expand fail to penetrate nearly enough for my comfort.

I have been reading through this thread this morning drinking coffee, and just wanted to comment on this.

While I don't have any experience shooting gel blocks, I do shoot a fair bit of game with handguns (as some of you who know me already know) due to where I tend to play. Lead wadcutter type bullets are quite effective, and my experience mirrors Chucks.

I have seen Jacks, both large and small hump up and hop away after being zipped right through with 230 grain FMJ ball ammo (unless you hit something structural). But if you get them with an SWC or wadcutter, its a totally different story, they flop over instantly. .38 Wadcutters are extremely effective on all manner of game. I have used them on lots of critters from skunks to vehicle struck deer, and they work well. Though if given an opportunity, I will usually use a bigger caliber/cartridge on the vehicle struck animals, such as a .45 ACP (but that's not relevant to the conversation).

Wadcutters work well.

[SCCY Marshal]

I have been reading through this thread this morning drinking coffee...if you get them with an SWC or wadcutter, its a totally different story, they flop over instantly. .38 Wadcutters are extremely effective on all manner of game...

Timely thread bump. I have work to do on the front sight of my new 3" Franken-10. Which left me with the decision of what primary load for which I want to regulate. A standard pressure 158 grain SWC or wide flat nose at moderate velocity was my decision. It should make for a dandy field gun during large and small game overlap with sufficient meplat to flop a bunny, pluck down an opportune bushytail, behead a partridge without 'sploding it should the bullet connect low, and have enough grunt for a mean dog, finish a deer, or divert a backwoods belligerent without undue muzzle blast as a bonus.

Nice to have a two-post reference regarding versatility versus single task optimization for my final brainstorm.

[03RN]

Timely thread bump. I have work to do on the front sight of my new 3" Franken-10. Which left me with the decision of what primary load for which I want to regulate. A standard pressure 158 grain SWC or wide flat nose at moderate velocity was my decision. It should make for a dandy field gun during large and small game overlap with sufficient meplat to flop a bunny, pluck down an opportune bushytail, behead a partridge without 'sploding it should the bullet connect low, and have enough grunt for a mean dog, finish a deer, or divert a backwoods belligerent without undue muzzle blast as a bonus.

Nice to have a two-post reference regarding versatility versus single task optimization for my final brainstorm.

158gr swc-wn over 11.5 2400 was 994 from my 2.75" 66 and 1089 from my 4" 64

And
66268

[UNK]

I have been reading through this thread this morning drinking coffee, and just wanted to comment on this.

While I don't have any experience shooting gel blocks, I do shoot a fair bit of game with handguns (as some of you who know me already know) due to where I tend to play. Lead wadcutter type bullets are quite effective, and my experience mirrors Chucks.

I have seen Jacks, both large and small hump up and hop away after being zipped right through with 230 grain FMJ ball ammo (unless you hit something structural). But if you get them with an SWC or wadcutter, its a totally different story, they flop over instantly. .38 Wadcutters are extremely effective on all manner of game. I have used them on lots of critters from skunks to vehicle struck deer, and they work well. Though if given an opportunity, I will usually use a bigger caliber/cartridge on the vehicle struck animals, such as a .45 ACP (but that's not relevant to the conversation).

Wadcutters work well.

Are you talking the same wadcutter as Chuck used? 148 @710 fps remington is the round he used in the post I quoted earlier.

[DocGKR]

Late response, as I just saw this.

"I wish he had used the heavy clothing or 4LD instead of bare gel, but it’s better than nothing."

Actually 4 layer denim is a better test--more predictable and offers a better evaluation of the ability of a handgun projectile to offer robust expansion.

[UNK]

I have loaded about 100 of the 157 grain wadcutters. I didn’t take any pictures of the targets but if I remember correctly they were pretty spot on for my 4” M64. I have also loaded about 100 of Matt’s 160 grain RF bullets with similar results.

Link to 160 grain RF: https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=266&zenid=2mblm1ktftc7t5k9f5jncq3g46

Pic of reloads:
64129

I will add here that the customer service at Matt’s bullets is fantastic. I have ordered multiple times from him and all have been good experiences. One order contained bullets that looked to have been damaged I assume during shipping. I emailed him about it, gave an approximate number of damaged bullets, and sent a picture explaining what was going on and he sent me more than enough new bullets to replace the damaged bullets in short order. It’s probably about time to place another order...

Can you explain to me the bullet on the right? Ive only bought 38 wadcutters already loaded.

[Bucky]

Can you explain to me the bullet on the right? Ive only bought 38 wadcutters already loaded.

It looks like the infamous upside down loaded bullet. But you have to be real old for that to be infamous. ;)

[Dov]

I have been reading through this thread this morning drinking coffee, and just wanted to comment on this.

While I don't have any experience shooting gel blocks, I do shoot a fair bit of game with handguns (as some of you who know me already know) due to where I tend to play. Lead wadcutter type bullets are quite effective, and my experience mirrors Chucks.

I have seen Jacks, both large and small hump up and hop away after being zipped right through with 230 grain FMJ ball ammo (unless you hit something structural). But if you get them with an SWC or wadcutter, its a totally different story, they flop over instantly. .38 Wadcutters are extremely effective on all manner of game. I have used them on lots of critters from skunks to vehicle struck deer, and they work well. Though if given an opportunity, I will usually use a bigger caliber/cartridge on the vehicle struck animals, such as a .45 ACP (but that's not relevant to the conversation).

Wadcutters work well.

Chuck mentions Remington WC, just wondering if anyone has seen significant difference between Federal and Remington WC on critters?

[revchuck38]

Can you explain to me the bullet on the right? Ive only bought 38 wadcutters already loaded.

I'm not jws, but the flush-seated wadcutter rounds were designed to work in autoloaders like the S&W M52 and .38 Super 1911s converted to .38 Special by folks like Jim Clark Sr. Prior to that, wadcutter bullets usually had a small portion of the bullet above the case mouth. The one in the photo just has more of the bullet above the case mouth; you can see that it's roll crimped. That portion helps align the bullet in the chamber throat of a revolver, at least theoretically aiding accuracy.

[jws]

Can you explain to me the bullet on the right? Ive only bought 38 wadcutters already loaded.

To my knowledge it’s just a different wadcutter design, it’s a little heavier weight than some. Here is a link to where I got them from:

https://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=226&zenid=2mblm1ktftc7t5k9f5jncq3g46

I just bought them to try them. They might make reloads slightly easier since they are a little smaller in diameter than the brass and stick out just a little. You could also probably load them to a higher velocity since the bullet takes up less space in the casing compared to factory wadcutters. I didn’t do that though, both if those loads in the picture were standard pressure. Matt’s Bullets has a variety of different wadcutter shapes and sizes available.


It looks like the infamous upside down loaded bullet. But you have to be real old for that to be infamous. ;)


I can assure you that I’m not that old or that infamous!

[Lost River]

Are you talking the same wadcutter as Chuck used? 148 @710 fps remington is the round he used in the post I quoted earlier.

UNK

Sorry for the late reply, been pretty busy lately cranking out ammo, raising kids, traveling, etc.

I have used some going as slow as 710, but I tend to push them faster.

That said, even the slower ones on smaller game tend to do exactly as described above.

I have two different .38 wadcutter loads.

A standard pressure, and a +P load.

The standard pressure velocity for a 4" K is 775 FPS

I cannot recall the other velocities off the top of my head at the moment.

The +P wadcutter load velocities are:

1 &7/8ths" BBL= 820 FPS
4" BBL= 885 FPS
6" BBL= 950 FPS


They do quite well, especially the +P load in penetrating straight through most things I have used them on.

https://i.imgur.com/Gn1mnjD.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/6jaYnzC.jpg?1

[BobM]

UNK

Sorry for the late reply, been pretty busy lately cranking out ammo, raising kids, traveling, etc.

I have used some going as slow as 710, but I tend to push them faster.

That said, even the slower ones on smaller game tend to do exactly as described above.

I have two different .38 wadcutter loads.

A standard pressure, and a +P load.

The standard pressure velocity for a 4" K is 775 FPS

I cannot recall the other velocities off the top of my head at the moment.

The +P wadcutter load velocities are:

1 &7/8ths" BBL= 820 FPS
4" BBL= 885 FPS
6" BBL= 950 FPS


They do quite well, especially the +P load in penetrating straight through most things I have used them on.

https://i.imgur.com/Gn1mnjD.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/6jaYnzC.jpg?1

How is the recoil of the +P load in the lightweight J frame?

[Mike Pipes]

NOT UNK............................IT HURTS....CYA MIKE

[RevolverRob]

I too like my wadcutters seated out a little bit. Over 3.2-3.3gr of VVN330 a 148-grain WC comes out of my 2" D-Frame slightly faster (no chrono, but I'd guess about 725-750fps) than a factory WC. It's a nice shooting load.

Next time Double Tap has it's 148-grain WC in stock, I'm going to buy some. They advertise 740fps from a J-Frame. Which should be a real sweet spot for J-Frames.

[JHC]

I too like my wadcutters seated out a little bit. Over 3.2-3.3gr of VVN330 a 148-grain WC comes out of my 2" D-Frame slightly faster (no chrono, but I'd guess about 725-750fps) than a factory WC. It's a nice shooting load.

Next time Double Tap has it's 148-grain WC in stock, I'm going to buy some. They advertise 740fps from a J-Frame. Which should be a real sweet spot for J-Frames.

IF you had the choice between Speed GD 135 +P or those which would it be?
Steel frame?
Alloy?

My .38s are steel frame, a 2" and a 3". Can't tell you from memory here which has the GDs and which Federal Match WC but the supply of both is pretty much tits up.

[RevolverRob]

IF you had the choice between Speed GD 135 +P or those which would it be?
Steel frame?
Alloy?

My .38s are steel frame, a 2" and a 3". Can't tell you from memory here which has the GDs and which Federal Match WC but the supply of both is pretty much tits up.

From a 3" gun the Gold Dot Short Barrel should give 12-16" of penetration and expansion. It is for sure the best non-magnum load from a 3" gun. Unfortunately, it has always been nigh unobtanium and that's not different now.

For a 2" gun - I mean, I run the GD Short Barrel in those as well and they are easier to shoot than old 158-grain +P LHPs, but not nearly as sweet as a wadcutter.

Federal has GMM's in stock - https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/gold-medal/gold-medal-handgun/11-GM38A.html

They ain't cheap at $51/50 - but I guess $1.02/round is still better than the currently Unavailable/Round of the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel.

[Lost River]

How is the recoil of the +P load in the lightweight J frame?

There is no free lunch.

The +Ps are a bit snappy. I reserve the heavy loads for carry and shooting larger game, and use my standard velocity loads (which are a bit faster than the big name brand) in most small/medium game and targets.



https://i.imgur.com/YhDotWf.jpg

[LOBO]

Any tests (not by Federal) in ballistic gel w/ 4LD of the .38 spl 130 gr HST from a snub? How about Buffalo Bore or Corbon 110 gr +P DPX from a snub n gel w/ 4 LD?

[RevolverRob]

Any tests (not by Federal) in ballistic gel w/ 4LD of the .38 spl 130 gr HST from a snub? How about Buffalo Bore or Corbon 110 gr +P DPX from a snub n gel w/ 4 LD?

Not the HST. I've seen clear gel tests, but not 10% Ordnance Gel that was properly calibrated.

For the Buffalo Bore they load the Barnes 110-grain bullet at basically the same velocity as Barnes. The Barnes load was previously recognized by DocGKR as suitable in expansion and penetration from a 2" snub. In general, it seems to be w consistent 14-18" of penetration in gel with or without 4LD. I would consider this round GTG for snubs, however at 1000fps, it's borderline shootable in Airweight guns. In all steel guns it would likely be acceptable.

[LOBO]

Not the HST. I've seen clear gel tests, but not 10% Ordnance Gel that was properly calibrated.

For the Buffalo Bore they load the Barnes 110-grain bullet at basically the same velocity as Barnes. The Barnes load was previously recognized by DocGKR as suitable in expansion and penetration from a 2" snub. In general, it seems to be w consistent 14-18" of penetration in gel with or without 4LD. I would consider this round GTG for snubs, however at 1000fps, it's borderline shootable in Airweight guns. In all steel guns it would likely be acceptable.

Thanks!! I was loading my 442 & 640 with the HST, then reloads with the 110 gr DPX. Decided to streamline & just went with the 110 gr DPX for carry n reloads.

[03RN]

Any tests (not by Federal) in ballistic gel w/ 4LD of the .38 spl 130 gr HST from a snub? How about Buffalo Bore or Corbon 110 gr +P DPX from a snub n gel w/ 4 LD?

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/testing-the-38-special-cartridge/

[LOBO]

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/testing-the-38-special-cartridge/

Thanks!!