P320 Paying lawyers must be cheaper than a recall

[Tokarev]

https://www.nhpr.org/post/sig-sauer-faces-more-lawsuits-over-p320-pistol?fbclid=IwAR0XYQIcgRh-Bw81tAcHzmfwci2fA1QjpOLtnojnY4mRl7JjmfvrRKaRWoo#st ream/0

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[1slow]

Ford Pinto anyone ?

[HCM]

https://www.nhpr.org/post/sig-sauer-faces-more-lawsuits-over-p320-pistol?fbclid=IwAR0XYQIcgRh-Bw81tAcHzmfwci2fA1QjpOLtnojnY4mRl7JjmfvrRKaRWoo#st ream/0

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If the guns have not been upgraded and if the plaintiff's are telling the truth.

It's not impossible, but as the recent Florida SRO/P320 debacle shows it is improbable.

[cornstalker]

Didn't the Chick-Fil-A thing happen in the shitter, with nothing on camera and a lot of trouser action likely? If so, it's tough to say what really happened under those circumstances.

Anyways, it sounds like a re-barf of old stories.

[LockedBreech]

Frankenberry? Like the cereal?


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[John Hearne]

Didn't the Chick-Fil-A thing happen in the shitter, with nothing on camera and a lot of trouser action likely? If so, it's tough to say what really happened under those circumstances.

Anyways, it sounds like a re-barf of old stories.

Not sure but I thought the Chik-Fil-A involved a dude using no holster and carrying Mexican with a striker fired pistol without a manual safety.

[Dave T]

It just warms my heart to know this is the handgun our government has chosen to arm our military.

Dave

[Trukinjp13]

All I can think of is this should have been a mandatory recall. If it was mandatory then Sig would have fixed these problems and theoretically would have killed may future issues. But by letting people decide to get their pistols fixed this is indeed on them. Also with a mandatory they could have tracked which guns were fixed and which were not. I know this is what has been said. But man.


Shit show.


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[CanineCombatives]

At this point it's just comical, but lets all pile on for another round. What do we want? Cohen's head on a spike. When do we want it? NOW!

[Old Man Winter]

It would be interesting to know what percentage of P320's have been fixed. I don't shoot or carry my P320's and haven't bothered to send them in for the fix. I suspect I'm not alone.

[LockedBreech]

I'm one of the biggest anti-current-Sig folks on the forum, but in all fairness didn't that Florida turn out to be a negligent discharge that was lied about, and the officer got terminated?

As much as I hate what Sig is choosing to be these days, I equally hate if people are being "the most qualified in the room" and then blaming the gun when it goes wrong.

[rathos]

Something about him releasing it from the holster and reseating it, basically practicing defeating the retention devices. Not sure how that would cause it to go off though. Still seems like an issue with the gun.

**edit** I think the "lie" was that he didn't touch it, but I practice defeating my retention device a lot and have never had any other gun just "go off" in the holster.


I'm one of the biggest anti-current-Sig folks on the forum, but in all fairness didn't that Florida turn out to be a negligent discharge that was lied about, and the officer got terminated?

As much as I hate what Sig is choosing to be these days, I equally hate if people are being "the most qualified in the room" and then blaming the gun when it goes wrong.

[Duelist]

Something about him releasing it from the holster and reseating it, basically practicing defeating the retention devices. Not sure how that would cause it to go off though. Still seems like an issue with the gun.

We practice this at home with unloaded guns. We practice this at the range with loaded and unloaded guns.

We do not practice this at all at the school we are supposed to be the SRO of.

[rathos]

To each their own. It should not go off but defeating the retention and slightly lifting it. If it does, the gun is defective.

You must also not be a cop, as I cannot count on one hand the number of briefings I have been in where the sound of the ALS clicking back into the locked position sounds like a symphony.


We practice this at home with unloaded guns. We practice this at the range with loaded and unloaded guns.

We do not practice this at all at the school we are supposed to be the SRO of.

[Duelist]

To each their own. It should not go off but defeating the retention and slightly lifting it. If it does, the gun is defective.

You must also not be a cop, as I cannot count on one hand the number of briefings I have been in where the sound of the ALS clicking back into the locked position sounds like a symphony.

K.

Nope, not a cop. Don’t care. Go on and play with your holster and gun in your briefing room if your leadership is cool with that.

On my school campus? Not one of the cops from 3+ agencies I’ve worked with on a school campus has ever f’d around with his or her holstered pistol in the lunch room in front of the students, or in fact at all in front of me. Ever.

There are good reasons for that, and IMHO it’s not a question of “to each their own”.

I agree, that guy’s gun should still not have gone off. He should also not have been f’ing with it.

[rathos]

Ahh, now I get it. Worked with on campus... Carry on.


K.

Nope, not a cop. Don’t care. Go on and play with your holster and gun in your briefing room if your leadership is cool with that.

On my school campus? Not one of the cops from 3+ agencies I’ve worked with on a school campus has ever f’d around with his or her holstered pistol in the lunch room in front of the students, or in fact at all in front of me. Ever.

There are good reasons for that, and IMHO it’s not a question of “to each their own”.

I agree, that guy’s gun should still not have gone off. He should also not have been f’ing with it.

[Duelist]

Ahh, now I get it. Worked with on campus... Carry on.

Apparently not.

[Poconnor]

But the Army said it’s good. It’s just a low bid thing; I didn’t know Cohen was having them made by the school for the blind.

[HCM]

To each their own. It should not go off but defeating the retention and slightly lifting it. If it does, the gun is defective.

You must also not be a cop, as I cannot count on one hand the number of briefings I have been in where the sound of the ALS clicking back into the locked position sounds like a symphony.

Just because that’s what you do you can’t presume that’s what the FL SRO did. Unless you were there or saw relevant video, which AFAIK has not been released you don’t know what the FL SRO did or didn’t do.

Plenty of cops do stupid shit.

[rathos]

I wasn't assuming anything, I was going by what was said in the last article update. They said he lifted it up in the holster. I haven't seen the video, but that is what was listed.



Just because that’s what you do you can’t presume that’s what the FL SRO did. Unless you were there or saw relevant video, which AFAIK has not been released you don’t know what the FL SRO did or didn’t do.

Plenty of cops do stupid shit.

[kwb377]

Plenty of cops do stupid shit.

Like apparently finger fucking their ALS guns/holsters during briefings (I've never heard this "clicking symphony").

When the SLS hoods first appeared, guys would rest their forearms on the hood and they'd wind up rotating downward...we'd periodically give each other a visual check on calls ("Your hood's down...").

But to play with the ALS, you have to physically grip the weapon and break retention...who thinks this is a good idea??

[Jeep]

At this point it's just comical, but lets all pile on for another round. What do we want? Cohen's head on a spike. When do we want it? NOW!


Well maybe that's what you want, but what I want is a rainbow colored M17 because real operators operate in multi-colors! Can you imagine how impressed/unnerved by, and envious of, rainbow- colored pistols Jihadi John is going to be? This could be huge! And Cohen knows just how to market it.

[HCM]

I wasn't assuming anything, I was going by what was said in the last article update. They said he lifted it up in the holster. I haven't seen the video, but that is what was listed.

How many times have you read a news article about an event you witnessed or participated in and got so much wrong you wondered if they are talking about the same event ?

I have experienced this enough to take most news articles with the proverbial grain of salt.

[Navyguns]

I'm one to allow the legal process to play out, adherence to due process is important. That said, I chose to not give Sig Sauer my money as that will be the only way in which they will learn. However, they have the military contracts now and they might not actually care about the civilian consumer market.

[CanineCombatives]

Not to mention the LE market share they’ve clawed back from glock in just 5 years, prior to the P320 glock enjoyed between 65 and 70 percent of the market across fed state and local agencies, pretty close to a monopoly.

[Navyguns]

When the issue of the Sig P320 comes up in this forum, I remember a thread with the late Todd Green. He mentioned when he worked at Sig he was in a meeting whereas the leadership discussed with Todd's team about whether or not to make the Sig P250 a hammer fired gun or striker fired gun. If I remember correctly, this meeting took place around the early 2000's and we know how that decision ended. The P250 was touted as this great modular system but it was hammer fired. A nice long but smooth 6.5 pound trigger pull.

Fast forward to today and we can clearly see the leadership at Sig is terribly lacking. Sig cares about money and military contracts.

[HCM]

When the issue of the Sig P320 comes up in this forum, I remember a thread with the late Todd Green. He mentioned when he worked at Sig he was in a meeting whereas the leadership discussed with Todd's team about whether or not to make the Sig P250 a hammer fired gun or striker fired gun. If I remember correctly, this meeting took place around the early 2000's and we know how that decision ended. The P250 was touted as this great modular system but it was hammer fired. A nice long but smooth 6.5 pound trigger pull.

Fast forward to today and we can clearly see the leadership at Sig is terribly lacking. Sig cares about money and military contracts.

Yeah, but in that thread Todd admitted he was wrong in pushing the P250 be hammer fired based on the market.

New guns, like new/1st generation anything tend to have issues. The fact that the P320 had drop safe issues is not the problem. The problem was how Sig handled those issues.

Sig was not only aware of the issues for nearly a year but had engineered a solution. Instead of issuing an immediate recall and switching all production to the new Safer design, design Sig kept quiet about it for months while they pumped out defective guns to the public and supplied the the improved version to GOV customers.

[psalms144.1]

The problem was how Sig handled those issues.

Sig was not only aware of the issues for nearly a year but had engineered a solution. Instead of issuing an immediate recall and switching all production to the new Safer design, design Sig kept quiet about it for months while they pumped out defective guns to the public and supplied the the improved version to GOV customers.Or not, on the last part of that sentence. Plenty of non-upgraded pistols were shipped to GOV and IOP customers before the Omaha Outdoors video forced Sig's hand...

[HCM]

Or not, on the last part of that sentence. Plenty of non-upgraded pistols were shipped to GOV and IOP customers before the Omaha Outdoors video forced Sig's hand...

They made sure to get the upgraded guns into GOV testing for contracts though.

And it was not really the Omaha outdoors video that forced their hand. It was the lawsuit filed by the Connecticut SWAT cop shot in the leg by his holstered P320 when it was dropped.

[Poconnor]

I think the biggest thing that bothers me about the army buying the 320 is that my daughter might get one on a deployment. I already told her if they give her a choice take the M4. The other bothersome part is police departments that buy the 320 because it’s cheap are not the agencies that provide a lot of training. They will do only the bare minimum of training required by law. If you have poor training you need all the help you can get.

[HCM]

I think the biggest thing that bothers me about the army buying the 320 is that my daughter might get one on a deployment. I already told her if they give her a choice take the M4. The other bothersome part is police departments that buy the 320 because it’s cheap are not the agencies that provide a lot of training. They will do only the bare minimum of training required by law. If you have poor training you need all the help you can get.

Agency prices on the Glock and the 320 are comparable. Most Agencies around here going SIG are doing so because they previously issued classic SIGs and/or they have a chief or range master who hates Glocks.

Speaking of minimal training there are a couple agencies near me whose only training is one day per year during which they shoot the state minimum 50 round qual course twice. A whole 100 rounds per year. Both use Glock 40s.

[CanineCombatives]

I think the biggest thing that bothers me about the army buying the 320 is that my daughter might get one on a deployment. I already told her if they give her a choice take the M4. The other bothersome part is police departments that buy the 320 because it’s cheap are not the agencies that provide a lot of training. They will do only the bare minimum of training required by law. If you have poor training you need all the help you can get.


Has the group think and misinformation really gone this far?

[HCM]

Has the group think and misinformation really gone this far?

Apparently.

It is also apparent that many people don’t understand just how low the cost is on Glock’s and other striker fired polymer guns. I’ve heard various figures running from $40-$75. Either way it cost less than 100 to make almost all of these. SIG was willing to either break even or past make minimal profit compared to their competitors in order to secure the US military contract. In the long run it is likely a very smart move.

[Tokarev]

Apparently.

It is also apparent that many people don’t understand just how low the cost is on Glock’s and other striker fired polymer guns. I’ve heard various figures running from $40-$75. Either way it cost less than 100 to make almost all of these. SIG was willing to either break even or past make minimal profit compared to their competitors in order to secure the US military contract. In the long run it is likely a very smart move.Story I heard was SIG sold the M17 for $.75 over cost.

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[NPV]

Just to weigh in on the above comments.

Having had worked/working on military contracts; yes that is a common practice. Aftermarket support of unit sales is where the money is made.

Sorry for the thread drift.

[HCM]

Story I heard was SIG sold the M17 for $.75 over cost.

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Possible. But they will make it up on the collateral sales from being the US service pistol.

[Tokarev]

Possible. But they will make it up on the collateral sales from being the US service pistol.Oh, yeah. If true it wasn't a stupid move on SIG's part.

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[10mmfanboy]

Man I really like that p365 xL but can't bring myself to buy one after the turds I had from sig. Only sig I'd buy again at this point is another sp2022. I already guessed that for shot show the legion p365 is coming. Sig really likes pumping out new models instead of perfecting what they already have.

[OlongJohnson]

When the issue of the Sig P320 comes up in this forum, I remember a thread with the late Todd Green. He mentioned when he worked at Sig he was in a meeting whereas the leadership discussed with Todd's team about whether or not to make the Sig P250 a hammer fired gun or striker fired gun. If I remember correctly, this meeting took place around the early 2000's and we know how that decision ended. The P250 was touted as this great modular system but it was hammer fired. A nice long but smooth 6.5 pound trigger pull.

I like the P250. If the P365 had a P250 action, I'd have two.

[Borderland]

Story I heard was SIG sold the M17 for $.75 over cost.

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Around $200 per pistol. I've read $180 and $207 per unit.

That can't be much of a pistol at that price but at least it's cheap to shoot.

[WobblyPossum]

Around $200 per pistol. I've read $180 and $207 per unit.

That can't be much of a pistol at that price but at least it's cheap to shoot.

How much do you think it costs a giant corporation to manufacture a polymer framed pistol once the production lines are fully operational? I bet all the popular ones cost about the same to produce, even the ones you like.

[HCM]

Around $200 per pistol. I've read $180 and $207 per unit.

That can't be much of a pistol at that price but at least it's cheap to shoot.

Yeah, but the pistol doesn’t cost that much to make. Production cost is somewhere under $100. They are supplying other stuff with the gun.

As Dan M stated, all the striker fired plastic people poppers cost about the same to make.

[TheNewbie]

Any idea what it costs Beretta to make a 92fs?


Also would be interesting to know how much it costs Wilson to make their most basic 1911.

[TheNewbie]

I like the P250. If the P365 had a P250 action, I'd have two.

If the P250 was still made, it would be my go to gun. I just don’t like using guns out of production as my main carry piece.

[YVK]

Story I heard was SIG sold the M17 for $.75 over cost.

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Story I've heard only FCU and mags were considered a gun. Everything else are separate line items.


Too many stories, too few facts.

[Old Man Winter]

It is also apparent that many people don’t understand just how low the cost is on Glock’s and other striker fired polymer guns. I’ve heard various figures running from $40-$75. Either way it cost less than 100 to make almost all of these. SIG was willing to either break even or past make minimal profit compared to their competitors in order to secure the US military contract. In the long run it is likely a very smart move.

You're right, Sig is going to sell a lot of guns because of that US Military contract. Additionally, people don't understand is how much companies like Sig and Glock spend on marketing and how that impacts unit cost. On pistols headed for retail channels it wouldn't surprise me if 25-30% of the final cost is built in specifically to fund marketing.

[Galbraith]

I already told her if they give her a choice take the M4.

You mean the M9?


The other bothersome part is police departments that buy the 320 because it’s cheap are not the agencies that provide a lot of training. They will do only the bare minimum of training required by law. If you have poor training you need all the help you can get.

Where exactly are you reading/hearing this? In DOI we have 3-4 full day trainings each year just for handgun, and we issue out 100rds of handgun ammo a month for individual training. Some of our guys shoot competition, and get additional special team training. We are in a slow process of transitioning from classic DA/SA Sigs, for P320s. We've been fielding the P320s for a couple of years now, and so far they have been better overall guns for us than our classic Sigs which we have been using since 1992. I have trained with a number of other Federal agencies(some with bigger firearms budgets than DOI) that have made the move to the P320, and the reception from the instructor staff is similar to our experiences with Glocks. I'm content with our agency switch to the P320, just as I would have been equally content if we had switched to Glock.

[HCM]

You're right, Sig is going to sell a lot of guns because of that US Military contract. Additionally, people don't understand is how much companies like Sig and Glock spend on marketing and how that impacts unit cost. On pistols headed for retail channels it wouldn't surprise me if 25-30% of the final cost is built in specifically to fund marketing.

I recall Ernest Langdon quoting Ken Hackathorn to the effect that “there are two types of gun companies, those that build good guns, and those that market well.” And something to the effect that the two will never intersect.

[HCM]

I think the biggest thing that bothers me about the army buying the 320 is that my daughter might get one on a deployment. I already told her if they give her a choice take the M4. The other bothersome part is police departments that buy the 320 because it’s cheap are not the agencies that provide a lot of training. They will do only the bare minimum of training required by law. If you have poor training you need all the help you can get.

The biggest thing that should bother you is the abysmal state of pistol training in most of the Army. It makes the state minimums for LEOs look high speed.

If it’s an actual shooting war take an M4. Given the current train and advise state of most current military ops, a pistol is preferable given the rates of green on blue and blue on blue incidents.

[Borderland]

How much do you think it costs a giant corporation to manufacture a polymer framed pistol once the production lines are fully operational? I bet all the popular ones cost about the same to produce, even the ones you like.


I wouldn't know.

I was never in the arms manufacturing business.

I do manufacture my own ammo however. ;)

[Borderland]

I'm wondering if Beretta had entered a stupid low bid for a PX4 like Sig did they could have had another 30 years of US contracts.

Maybe because a striker is the pistol of the future because of production costs, I don't know, but I sure like those polymer DA/SA pistols.

Might have to buy a PX4 to see if I can get 50K without it breaking.