Doubts about 9mm

[GlorifiedMailman]

I’ve been pouring over this subject for years now (particularly DocGKR’s work), but keep coming back to the same conundrum at one point or another. It’s obvious that 9mm has taken the world by storm once more in LE, military, and self-defense use. However, looking back over the past several decades, the pendulum seems to swing back and forth between larger/heavier calibers like the .40, .45, and 10mm (for a brief time), and 9mm. There was a time when 9mm was thought to be king, but then it was determined not to be enough and a larger caliber was needed.

Who’s to say that there won’t be another tragic event of brave LEOs getting killed while using 9mm pistols that fail to end the threat, and precipitate a move back to larger calibers like .40 and .45 (or some new caliber entirely)? That’s not to say that I think such a tragedy would actually be the fault of 9mm; more than likely it would be the fault of something else entirely or the inadequacies of service pistol calibers in general. But that wouldn’t necessarily stop a large exodus from 9mm to a larger caliber, as has happened before.

As well, to this day it seems like larger calibers such as .40 are preferred by LE for dispatching injured animals, such as deer. If 9mm is less effective at putting down injured deer, how can it be as effective as the larger calibers to take down a 200+ pound determined human attacker?

This is coming from someone who has been carrying a 9mm Glock 19 for years and shoots in competition, but every once in a while I have my doubts about 9mm having negligible differences in effectiveness compared to .40 or .45.

I realize that the 9mm loads of today are scores more effective than 9mm loads of yesteryear, but it seems that only in the past decade has 9mm started to have loads determined to be excellent. Is it really, truly proven to be close enough in incapacitation potential to .40 or .45 to make no difference in regards to ending a posed threat quickly and effectively?

I don’t mean to start a caliber debate or focus on the wrong things, but it’s something that’s been gnawing at me for a while. It’s really the main reason I haven’t sold off my .45’s. Meanwhile I will continue my 9mm shooting schedule as normal, I will not let this compromise my effectiveness.

Thanks to all who help a OCD soul.

[El Cid]

Do what makes you happy. If you want to ignore science and evidence that’s your right. The 1986 Miami shootout you make veiled reference to was not a failure of the 9mm. It was a failure to get long guns into the fight.

[Joe in PNG]

People tend to forget that .40 & .45 also have some pretty well documented failures to stop baddies.
I often bring up the Battle of Barrington during caliber wars, and that somehow, Baby Face Nelson somehow didn't get the memo that "They All Fall To Hardball" .45acp.
Seems that whole "shot placement trumps caliber" thing just might be important.

Even full power battle rifle calibers have been known to be less than effective- the military annual are full of men who took multiple hits from 7.92, 6.5, 7.7, and assorted similar calibers, yet were able to do some damage afterwards.

[Default.mp3]

As well, to this day it seems like larger calibers such as .40 are preferred by LE for dispatching injured animals, such as deer. If 9mm is less effective at putting down injured deer, how can it be as effective as the larger calibers to take down a 200+ pound determined human attacker?I think there's a slight difference between trying to execute an animal with a single bullet versus probably engaging a target multiple times.

Obviously bullet for bullet, the 9mm will be inferior, physics dictates that. The question is, do the rest of the advantages of 9mm outweigh that small difference in single bullet performance, and is that performance in the "good enough" category? Sure, if I'm running around with a single shot derringer, I'd definitely choose .40 S&W or .45 ACP over 9mm... but I ain't.

[10mmfanboy]

I wouldn't lose sleep over it, all handgun calibers pretty much blow for an immediate death ray round. If dispatching deer is what worries you I have dispatched them with 9,40,10mm,357 mag and I can't say one was all that better than the other at the ranges I was in. A good shot is a good shot.

Keep in mind that most of those were after a deer took a 308 round and still didn't die.

[HopetonBrown]

I wonder if there's a correlation between obsession with caliber debates and proficiency?

Preferred round, per Bill Wilson in 2015

BJ Norris 9mm
Bill Rogers 9mm
Bill Wilson 9mm
David Bahde 9mm
Ernest Langdon 9mm
Frank Proctor 9mm
Ken Hackathorn 9mm
Larry Vickers 9mm
Mike Seeklander 9mm
Paul Markel 9mm
Paul Howe 9mm
Paul Buffoni 9mm
Super Dave Harrington 9mm

[GlorifiedMailman]

Do what makes you happy. If you want to ignore science and evidence that’s your right. The 1986 Miami shootout you make veiled reference to was not a failure of the 9mm. It was a failure to get long guns into the fight.

Actually, I would be happier sticking with 9mm. I suppose just once in a while I re-evaluate my positions regarding caliber, platform, technique, etc. and consult with others more knowledgeable than I.

Thanks for the replies so far, all. I suppose it comes to whether the advantages of 9mm outweigh the advantages of .40 or .45. Considering my primary .45's are Glock 21 Gen 4's, I don't think that it's giving up much in capacity compared to a G19, though there's no contest that I can shoot faster with accuracy with the 9mm. The split times are clear. And obviously, I can practice far more with any given ammo budget with 9mm.

If there is no noticeable effectiveness difference between 9mm and .45 shot-for-shot, that would make 9mm the obvious choice for all the normal reasons. (Though of course, as was mentioned, .45 will do more damage than 9mm. The question is whether that difference is enough to matter)

[Totem Polar]

I believe that the .45 still has adherents in rural and colder climates (eg, Anchorage, or my own region’s Sheriff —not to be confused with the city PD’s current 9mms), but for mainstream LE? Probably settled, until someone invents better tech. JMO.

[Robinson]

There's nothing wrong with .40 and .45, and using it because you like a pistol that shoots one or the other is a valid reason. I don't carry a 1911 because it's a .45, I carry .45 because I think it's the best cartridge for my 1911s even after seriously experimenting with 9mm 1911s multiple times.

But there's probably not much reason to doubt the effectiveness of quality defensive 9mm ammunition compared to the larger calibers at this point.

[Navin Johnson]

Really?

[RevolverRob]

I still carry a .45 fairly frequently. Not because I think it is more effective than a 9mm, but because I like it. It gives me some warm and fuzzy inside, that a “Forty-fives don’t shrink.” Besides Federal HST and/or Speer Gold Dot and/or Winchester Ranger Bonded come in all major calibers worth giving a damn about.

[JRB]

The 12 step P-F sidearm selection cycle:

Step 1 - Buy/Own a pistol
Step 2 - Take it to the range, shoot it until you trust it and feel confident; CHL permit+McHolster.
Step 3 - blahblahblahblahblahblah
Step 4 - Get a Glock 19/Beretta 92 and take a class; realize shot timer phone apps are garbage; McHolsters suck
Step 5 - Realize you shoot a Beretta 92/Glock/(Other Gun) better during the class
Step 6 - Buy six flavors of Beretta/Glock/(Other Gun) and holsters
Step 7 - 1911...oooo shiny
Step 8 - Take another class; how did I end up with so many holsters; dot torture
Step 9 - Distracted diversion to HK/CZ/Sig/M&P/[Other Gun]; sell off guns and holsters to buy more guns and holsters
Step 10 - REVOLVERS, BY GOD!
Step 11 - Carry Optics/Red Dots/All the Widgets and Gizmos
Step 12 - Return to Step 1.

This is Step 3 thinking. Spend as little time on Step 3 as possible. Enjoy all the other steps.

[HopetonBrown]

If there is no noticeable effectiveness difference between 9mm and .45 shot-for-shot, that would make 9mm the obvious choice for all the normal reasons.

"There is no appreciable difference in the effectiveness of the 9mm and 45 ACP cartridges"

-Vincent J. M. Di Maio, GUNSHOT WOUNDS: Practical Aspects of Firearms, Ballistics, and Forensic Techniques SECOND EDITION, Page 150.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_Di_Maio

(I believe I was first made aware of the quote above by Chuck Haggard)

[Bucky]

Do what makes you happy. If you want to ignore science and evidence that’s your right. The 1986 Miami shootout you make veiled reference to was not a failure of the 9mm. It was a failure to get long guns into the fight.

There were many failures, an autopsy results indicated that had the 115 STHP penetrated further, the fight might have ended sooner. A .40 or .45 likely would have made a difference..., but then again same could be said about the 124 +P Gold Dot or similar.

ETA: ignore the smiley, not sure how that got there.

[0ddl0t]

Who’s to say that there won’t be another tragic event of brave LEOs getting killed while using 9mm pistols that fail to end the threat, and precipitate a move back to larger calibers like .40 and .45 (or some new caliber entirely)? That’s not to say that I think such a tragedy would actually be the fault of 9mm; more than likely it would be the fault of something else entirely or the inadequacies of service pistol calibers in general.

There is no predicting on what administrators will blame the failures of future events. But the FBI Miami Shootout was not a failure of 9mm. It was a primarily failure of planning/preparation/tactics: The agents, hoping to encounter deadly bank robbers known to use a mini 14 & shotgun, had largely equipped themselves with .38 revolvers. Other agents also had 2 .357s, 3 9mm, & two shotguns. None of the involved agents had smgs, rifles or rifle-rated body armor.

Way, way, way down the list of failures was the Winchester silvertip for not penetrating that extra 1.5 inches. Other 9mm ammo, including regular ball, would have done so. Still, that silvertip wound was ultimately fatal - it just didn't stop a very motivated assailant immediately.

Finally, there is no magic bullet. I was just looking over an autopsy from a controversial 2015 police shooting where a psychotic methhead wearing a thick jacket, hoodie, and thermal undershirt was hit over 20 times by .40 Winchester Ranger T at <5 yards. None of the bullets performed that well - more than half failed to fully expand and those that did expand shed jackets & fragments. Had his CNS not been hit, the perp probably would have kept on fighting until blood loss caught up with him.

[Hambo]

A few years ago a nearby city PD changed from .40 Glocks to .45 Glocks. They might have had two OIS in the last fifteen years and prevailed in both, so it wasn't a caliber/ammo problem. Somebody liked .45, Glock gave them a deal, and now 200+ officers get to carry .45s.

[GlorifiedMailman]

I believe that the .45 still has adherents in rural and colder climates (eg, Anchorage, or my own region’s Sheriff —not to be confused with the city PD’s current 9mms), but for mainstream LE? Probably settled, until someone invents better tech. JMO.


Why is .45 still better for those in rural or colder climates; is it because of animals, or penetration through thick winter clothing?

[GlorifiedMailman]

The 12 step P-F sidearm selection cycle:

Step 1 - Buy/Own a pistol
Step 2 - Take it to the range, shoot it until you trust it and feel confident; CHL permit+McHolster.
Step 3 - blahblahblahblahblahblah
Step 4 - Get a Glock 19/Beretta 92 and take a class; realize shot timer phone apps are garbage; McHolsters suck
Step 5 - Realize you shoot a Beretta 92/Glock/(Other Gun) better during the class
Step 6 - Buy six flavors of Beretta/Glock/(Other Gun) and holsters
Step 7 - 1911...oooo shiny
Step 8 - Take another class; how did I end up with so many holsters; dot torture
Step 9 - Distracted diversion to HK/CZ/Sig/M&P/[Other Gun]; sell off guns and holsters to buy more guns and holsters
Step 10 - REVOLVERS, BY GOD!
Step 11 - Carry Optics/Red Dots/All the Widgets and Gizmos
Step 12 - Return to Step 1.

This is Step 3 thinking. Spend as little time on Step 3 as possible. Enjoy all the other steps.

This is frighteningly accurate. I suppose this is my 3rd time to repeat the process and I'm on step 3. I'd like to get past it as soon as possible after putting some doubts to rest.

[Zincwarrior]

Really?

Its important to remember a .45 acp can go right through an engine block. Just throwing one with you hand at a car will blow the door right off. :cool:

[parishioner]

1) Hole size =/= rate of bleed. The body can swell and cut off blood flow. It's designed to fight wounded but that capacity can obviously be overcome. Different areas of the body have different amounts of pressure behind them and different sizes of blood vessels and different tissue types that respond differently to injury. The body isn't a bucket where a bigger hole leaks faster. The body is more of a hydraulic system wrapped in sponge that can swell or contract.

2) Bullet selection matters. Most shootings involve shitty ammunition because most shootings are criminal on criminal and criminals *tend* to run shitty ammunition. If I want to know how WWB ball does, I'll consult my files.

3) Who lives and who dies is a function of two things. Shot placement and time lapse to medical treatment. Some would argue for three with 'will to live' being the third, and that's probably valid for many injuries as well.

4) My own case files contain hundreds of people shot. I have access to thousands of people shot. My (former) office got roughly 600 people shot a year. I rapidly learned that tracking caliber for purposes other than linking cases was useless. The variables of ammunition used, shot placement, distance to emergency services, etc. vastly overwhelmed any trend for calibers. It also doesn't tell you who's fighting determined attackers and who's engaged in assassination style shootings. Literally nobody carries a .32 for duty use here, but it's used in plenty of dope-rip shootings/assassinations. If you have 50 shootings with a .32 and 50 shootings with the .40, the most common duty round for most of the time I was a detective, is that a valid comparison? Does shooting someone then having immediate medical aid compare to shooting someone and leaving them in a car unreported match up or does that change the data?

No, a more valid comparison is when entire departments switch. Then you should have the variables controlled. Quality ammunition, same training level so (in theory) same level of good shot placement, same geographic area being policed so same access to medical care, etc. Do you see any statistically relevant change in how many officers win gun fights? The answer is...no, you don't. Or at least we haven't locally and nearly everyone has switched to 9mm except the state police.

Believe whatever you like. I used to be an arch-bishop in the Holy Church of the .45, carried a 1911 then a Sig P220, and still own more copies of the P220 then any other specific model. However after seeing countless people shot, dead or alive, and a modicum of research I've gotten over it. I will, and have, confront determined and deadly enemies with any of the common duty calibers because they all work and they all work in a measure so equal that the differences aren't even quite angels on pinheads.

And it might be, but not with the tech we have now. The current .380 cartridges can't "do it all": penetrate, expand, and be barrier blind. It's the smallest commonly used cartridge that can consistently break adult bones, though.

[Hambo]

This is frighteningly accurate. I suppose this is my 3rd time to repeat the process and I'm on step 3.

People are easily bored, and the culture encourages rapid change/replacement. Fuck that kind of thinking. Get whatever 9mm you like and shoot it until you're competent. Then push yourself to be an expert shooter with it.

A friend of mine changes carry guns every 1-2 years depending on what's the new hotness or his whim. He rarely goes to the range, has never been to training, and can't shoot any of them worth a damn. Don't be that guy.

[spinmove_]

There are scores of dudes that have been put in the ground with the original loading of 9mm out of the original Luger pistol. It’s only gotten better with age.

There are a whole plethora of great reasons to like 9mm, but I think my favorite reason to like it is that it’s so freaking cost effective. No other service caliber allows me to get the amount of live fire behind a gun than 9mm. Training, practice, and familiarity behind whatever platform you’re shooting breeds competence. The more competence you have with a given platform, the more effective you’ll be with it. If another caliber magically became cheaper in bulk and gained widespread acceptance, I’d probably move to that caliber so that I can maintain or increase my level of practice.

Your software is far and away more important in how effective any given weapon is going to be. The hardware is merely a commodity. Some of those commodities are more opulent than others, but it still boils down to being a commodity.

[45dotACP]

.

I realize that the 9mm loads of today are scores more effective than 9mm loads of yesteryear, but it seems that only in the past decade has 9mm started to have loads determined to be excellent. Is it really, truly proven to be close enough in incapacitation potential to .40 or .45 to make no difference in regards to ending a posed threat quickly and effectively?


Look up Tim Gramins. He was involved in a shooting with a bank robber and scored 17 hits on a perp with 230gr gold dots, several of them fatal, but the fight wasn't over until the CNS hit. At the time of his shooting he was a SWAT sniper, trained a ton, and carried a G21. He scored something like 50% of the shots he fired but he went through almost his entire duty loadout.

Would 9mm have worked better for him then?

Yeah, probably. The shot was ended by a CNS hit and more bullets is more time in the fight. You'll probably be OK with 9mm for most situations.

But then there are guys who say they have never seen more than a few shots being fired for dudes running 230gr HST+P so anecdotes can be twisted to suit any preconceived notion.

I'd stick with the data and trust in your skill over whether you're carrying the latest greatest JHP

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[El Cid]

There were many failures, an autopsy results indicated that had the 115 STHP penetrated further, the fight might have ended sooner. A .40 or .45 likely would have made a difference..., but then again same could be said about the 124 +P Gold Dot or similar.

ETA: ignore the smiley, not sure how that got there.

Oh, I'm well aware of the blame placed on that lone silvertip bullet. But in my view the bullet was the scapegoat. The agents set their handguns on the seat to be "quicker" but lost them during the resulting car crash. But even had they not done that, they would still have been using handguns (mostly revolvers) to engage known violent robbers/murderers who had a shotgun and rifle. The real lesson from that day was to keep your long gun close by and when going after bad people have it in your hands. The only agent to get a long gun into the fight (and he used it to end the fight) had the shotgun in the passenger compartment. The other agents had their long guns in their trunks. I've successfully used the 86 shootout to campaign for electronic rifle racks that allows us to reach our M-4's from the driver's seat.

The good news is that by blaming that single 9mm bullet, the LE community started to study and test ammunition like never before. And we all benefit today from those efforts. But saying that .40 or .45 would have likely made a difference is pure conjecture. The .40 didn't exist back then and was born out of the ammo developments. And .45 is typically a slower bullet. Bottom line is all handguns suck at stopping a determined, violent predator. If you expect a fight, have a long gun.

[Totem Polar]

Why is .45 still better for those in rural or colder climates; is it because of animals, or penetration through thick winter clothing?

I’m not convinced it’s better, but both of the above is probably part of the thinking.

[Guerrero]

Jared Reston

[El Cid]

Why is .45 still better for those in rural or colder climates; is it because of animals, or penetration through thick winter clothing?

Personally I don't believe it is better. That was often the line back in the 90's when hollowpoints were often clogged by winter clothing and failed to expand. The thought then being, if the bullets don't expand you might as well use a bigger bullet. You could drop me off in the frozen tundra of the North Pole and I'd be fine with my 9mm for human threats.

[HCM]

I’ve been pouring over this subject for years now (particularly DocGKR’s work), but keep coming back to the same conundrum at one point or another. It’s obvious that 9mm has taken the world by storm once more in LE, military, and self-defense use. However, looking back over the past several decades, the pendulum seems to swing back and forth between larger/heavier calibers like the .40, .45, and 10mm (for a brief time), and 9mm. There was a time when 9mm was thought to be king, but then it was determined not to be enough and a larger caliber was needed.

Who’s to say that there won’t be another tragic event of brave LEOs getting killed while using 9mm pistols that fail to end the threat, and precipitate a move back to larger calibers like .40 and .45 (or some new caliber entirely)? That’s not to say that I think such a tragedy would actually be the fault of 9mm; more than likely it would be the fault of something else entirely or the inadequacies of service pistol calibers in general. But that wouldn’t necessarily stop a large exodus from 9mm to a larger caliber, as has happened before.

As well, to this day it seems like larger calibers such as .40 are preferred by LE for dispatching injured animals, such as deer. If 9mm is less effective at putting down injured deer, how can it be as effective as the larger calibers to take down a 200+ pound determined human attacker?

This is coming from someone who has been carrying a 9mm Glock 19 for years and shoots in competition, but every once in a while I have my doubts about 9mm having negligible differences in effectiveness compared to .40 or .45.

I realize that the 9mm loads of today are scores more effective than 9mm loads of yesteryear, but it seems that only in the past decade has 9mm started to have loads determined to be excellent. Is it really, truly proven to be close enough in incapacitation potential to .40 or .45 to make no difference in regards to ending a posed threat quickly and effectively?

I don’t mean to start a caliber debate or focus on the wrong things, but it’s something that’s been gnawing at me for a while. It’s really the main reason I haven’t sold off my .45’s. Meanwhile I will continue my 9mm shooting schedule as normal, I will not let this compromise my effectiveness.

Thanks to all who help a OCD soul.

The real world is a messy place and shooting people is messy. There are no guarantees. The only constants have been that “stopping power” is a myth with hand guns and shot placement is the most significant factor.

Otherwise I suggest you seek professional help for your OCD rather than re-hash the Handgun caliber debate.

[TC215]

There is no predicting on what administrators will blame the failures of future events. But the FBI Miami Shootout was not a failure of 9mm. It was a primarily failure of planning/preparation/tactics: The agents, hoping to encounter deadly bank robbers known to use a mini 14 & shotgun, had largely equipped themselves with .38 revolvers. Other agents also had 2 .357s, 3 9mm, & two shotguns. None of the involved agents had smgs, rifles or rifle-rated body armor.

There were MP-5’s, and maybe M-16’s (can’t remember), with agents on the surveillance detail. For various reasons, mostly due to Murphy’s Law, those agents weren’t able to make it to the scene in time to get in the fight.

[TGS]

There were MP-5’s, and maybe M-16’s (can’t remember), with agents on the surveillance detail. For various reasons, mostly due to Murphy’s Law, those agents weren’t able to make it to the scene in time to get in the fight.

Yes sir, both MP5s and M-16s.

________________________________


To be honest, the FBI never fully blamed the event on pistol caliber failures. It was only a contributing factor, the FBI admitted fault where fault is due with regard to tactics and planning. The idea that the FBI only blamed 9mm for that day is a falsehood.

The idea that the main, perhaps singular cause for the outcome of the shootout was the ineffectiveness of 9mm is something I think that is pedaled by people in the gun community.....in particular gun manufacturers trying to make sales during a country-wide police rearmament bonanza.



I don’t mean to ... focus on the wrong things,

but you are. :p

[HCM]

Look up Tim Gramins. He was involved in a shooting with a bank robber and scored 17 hits on a perp with 230gr gold dots, several of them fatal, but the fight wasn't over until the CNS hit. At the time of his shooting he was a SWAT sniper, trained a ton, and carried a G21. He scored something like 50% of the shots he fired but he went through almost his entire duty loadout.

Would 9mm have worked better for him then?

Yeah, probably. The shot was ended by a CNS hit and more bullets is more time in the fight. You'll probably be OK with 9mm for most situations.

But then there are guys who say they have never seen more than a few shots being fired for dudes running 230gr HST+P so anecdotes can be twisted to suit any preconceived notion.

I'd stick with the data and trust in your skill over whether you're carrying the latest greatest JHP

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Tim Grammins now carries a 9mm.

Fighting is about more than terminal ballistics. In a fight, bullets are opportunities.

[AKDoug]

Tim Grammins now carries a 9mm.

Fighting is about more than terminal ballistics. In a fight, bullets are opportunities. It's funny, I was reading this thread and your post was exactly what I was going to post.

Every time I strap on a lower capacity pistol I keep hearing "bullets are opportunities" in a calm southern drawl.. just like Frank Proctor said in the class I took with him. I balance capacity with pistol size and end up in G19 land with two G17 mags for reloads.

Somebody else mentioned Alaskan LEO carrying .40's and .45's.. I don't know what Anchorage carries, but the Alaska State Troopers still roll with Glocks in .40S&W. National Park Service also runs .40's for their LEO's. I'm not sure if it's a perceived advantage over 9's or just happenstance.

[El Cid]

Tim Grammins now carries a 9mm.

Fighting is about more than terminal ballistics. In a fight, bullets are opportunities.

Yep. I like how Defoor explains it with "timers and switches." If you can't hit a switch (CNS), then you need to speed up the timer which of course means you need more bullets.

[GlorifiedMailman]

What about .45’s increased wound channel as compared to 9mm? In the Law Enforcement Bulletin released by the FBI in November of 1989, they seemed to put some importance on the volume of tissue/gel displaced by the projectile. The 10mm and .45 produced much larger wound volumes than the 147gr 9mm load. Now I realize that these were all much more inferior projectiles than what we have today, but isn’t it still true that, with two otherwise identical well-designed loadings in both 9mm and .45, the .45 would still create a larger wound channel than the 9mm?

It seems to be something that LE doesn’t put as much emphasis on wound volume anymore. Has it just shown to be irrelevant in incapacitation? I realize the body is a essentially a hydraulic sponge as was pointed out, but all else being equal does the increased wound cavity provided by the .45 matter?

[TGS]

What about .45’s increased wound channel as compared to 9mm? In the Law Enforcement Bulletin released by the FBI in November of 1989, they seemed to put some importance on the volume of tissue/gel displaced by the projectile. The 10mm and .45 produced much larger wound volumes than the 147gr 9mm load. Now I realize that these were all much more inferior projectiles than what we have today, but isn’t it still true that, with two otherwise identical well-designed loadings in both 9mm and .45, the .45 would still create a larger wound channel than the 9mm?

It seems to be something that LE doesn’t put as much emphasis on wound volume anymore. Has it just shown to be irrelevant in incapacitation? I realize the body is a essentially a hydraulic sponge as was pointed out, but all else being equal does the increased wound cavity provided by the .45 matter?

It's insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

If it gives you the warm and fuzzy, by all means carry a .45, just like some people get a warm and fuzzy from 127gr +p+ or .357 SIG.

Don't agonize over it though. Pick something from DocGKRs list and drive on.

[spinmove_]

What about .45’s increased wound channel as compared to 9mm? In the Law Enforcement Bulletin released by the FBI in November of 1989, they seemed to put some importance on the volume of tissue/gel displaced by the projectile. The 10mm and .45 produced much larger wound volumes than the 147gr 9mm load. Now I realize that these were all much more inferior projectiles than what we have today, but isn’t it still true that, with two otherwise identical well-designed loadings in both 9mm and .45, the .45 would still create a larger wound channel than the 9mm?

It seems to be something that LE doesn’t put as much emphasis on wound volume anymore. Has it just shown to be irrelevant in incapacitation? I realize the body is a essentially a hydraulic sponge as was pointed out, but all else being equal does the increased wound cavity provided by the .45 matter?

If the projectile was traveling at rifle speeds then the temporary wound cavity would matter more. Since it’s not, it’s essentially just poking a hole through a human. Given that you're debating the differences between a 0.455” projectile vs a 0.356” projectile, I mean, yes there’s factually a difference, but the margin is so slim it’s moot.

Again, we’re just talking pistol calibers here. They, by far, are significantly underpowered compared to a rifle or shotgun load. They’re just way more convenient for John Q. Public to carry every day.

[WobblyPossum]

What about .45’s increased wound channel as compared to 9mm? In the Law Enforcement Bulletin released by the FBI in November of 1989, they seemed to put some importance on the volume of tissue/gel displaced by the projectile. The 10mm and .45 produced much larger wound volumes than the 147gr 9mm load. Now I realize that these were all much more inferior projectiles than what we have today, but isn’t it still true that, with two otherwise identical well-designed loadings in both 9mm and .45, the .45 would still create a larger wound channel than the 9mm?

It seems to be something that LE doesn’t put as much emphasis on wound volume anymore. Has it just shown to be irrelevant in incapacitation? I realize the body is a essentially a hydraulic sponge as was pointed out, but all else being equal does the increased wound cavity provided by the .45 matter?

Advances in ammunition technology over the last 20 years have greatly decreased the gap between 9mm and .45 ACP. The FBI has entirely switched to 9mm again. One of the main reasons was that the major service calibers all did pretty much the same thing, so why carry fewer rounds that recoiled more?

[Joe in PNG]

Some facts are counter-intuitive.

It may be intuitive to go home after a long day at a desk and just relax, because one feels tired. But that's not actually healthy, and it's better to get in some exercise.

Likewise, it is intuitive that a bigger bullet must make a bigger hole and do more damage, but a lot of testing and real world experience has shown that is not the case.

[Duke]

I dont doubt 9mm

But I do doubt that this Thread’s outcome will be better for ones long term self defense plan than doing a max set of burpees and pull ups instead.

[URIT]

If I were the OP with OCD playing the "What If?" game with myself, I'd still be wondering after reading this thread. The handgun and caliber of ammo play a minor role to the operator.

[Nephrology]

Never met a shot person who had a strong opinion on the caliber of the gun that shot them. Most times they were too busy being resuscitated.

[vcdgrips]

Long Post Warning

I posted the thoughts below when somebody (a relatively new shooter) was asking about a gunbelt after I noted that perhaps they were spending too much time on hardware issues v software issues.


"Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and hit an 8 inch circle at 3 yards in under 2 seconds, COLD, every time?

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform, and do a FAST Test in under 10 seconds, COLD, every time with no points down?

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform, taking a big step off line and hit an 8 inch circle at 5 yards, with 5 rounds, in under 4 secs., COLD, every time?

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and hit an 8 inch plate at 10 yrds, at will, COLD, every time with no time constraints?( bang, tink, bang, tink, bang, tink etc.)

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and shoot a 5 shoot group at 5 yrds that you can cover with a credit card, COLD, every time with no time constraints?

Have you taken any formal training beyond a CCW class in the last 24 months?"


I started shooting/carrying .45 ACP because that is the gun my first shooting mentor(s) carried because "they all fall to hardball..." etc.

I started shooting/carrying 9mm when my client agencies graciously allowed me to train with them as that is what they were using.

I started shooting/carrying .40 cal when my client agencies moved away from 9mm toward .40 cal.

Presuming I could carry a standard capacity weapon (15 +1 or 17 + 1) and I had to feed and water it myself, I would go 9mm and not look back. If I was limited to 10 rounds max, I would go back to a 1911 or perhaps pivot to an M&P with Apex Trigger goodies and drive on.

If I could NOT perform as outlined above and was serious about the uniquely American martial art of pistolcraft, I would stop worrying about secondary hardware issues and go with a 9mm, staying with it until I could perform as outlined above, COLD, ON DEMAND. YMMV Greatly.

[HCM]

There is no predicting on what administrators will blame the failures of future events. But the FBI Miami Shootout was not a failure of 9mm. It was a primarily failure of planning/preparation/tactics: The agents, hoping to encounter deadly bank robbers known to use a mini 14 & shotgun, had largely equipped themselves with .38 revolvers. Other agents also had 2 .357s, 3 9mm, & two shotguns. None of the involved agents had smgs, rifles or rifle-rated body armor.

Way, way, way down the list of failures was the Winchester silvertip for not penetrating that extra 1.5 inches. Other 9mm ammo, including regular ball, would have done so. Still, that silvertip wound was ultimately fatal - it just didn't stop a very motivated assailant immediately.

Finally, there is no magic bullet. I was just looking over an autopsy from a controversial 2015 police shooting where a psychotic methhead wearing a thick jacket, hoodie, and thermal undershirt was hit over 20 times by .40 Winchester Ranger T at <5 yards. None of the bullets performed that well - more than half failed to fully expand and those that did expand shed jackets & fragments. Had his CNS not been hit, the perp probably would have kept on fighting until blood loss caught up with him.


There were MP-5’s, and maybe M-16’s (can’t remember), with agents on the surveillance detail. For various reasons, mostly due to Murphy’s Law, those agents weren’t able to make it to the scene in time to get in the fight.


Yes sir, both MP5s and M-16s.

________________________________


To be honest, the FBI never fully blamed the event on pistol caliber failures. It was only a contributing factor, the FBI admitted fault where fault is due with regard to tactics and planning. The idea that the FBI only blamed 9mm for that day is a falsehood.

The idea that the main, perhaps singular cause for the outcome of the shootout was the ineffectiveness of 9mm is something I think that is pedaled by people in the gun community.....in particular gun manufacturers trying to make sales during a country-wide police rearmament bonanza.



but you are. :p

Re: Miami - Yes there were Agents on the area surveillance with Heavy Body Armor as well as an MP5 and an M16. They were not near the area where the suspects were spotted - on a bathroom break as I recall. John Hearne could say for sure. Murphys law definetly applies here.

At least two of the Agents present, the ones with the S&W 9mm pistols, were FBI SWAT. However, at the time the administrative procedures for checking out MP5s and M16s were enough of a PITA that the two SWAT Agents chose not to do so. Suffice to say that today take home long guns are common and that is one issue which should not be a factor today.

This was not a planned take down. It was an area surveillance with a take down as one possible contingency. Even today with all sorts of "low Vis" and "Covert" long gun cases and hard armor there is a limit to how geared up you can be and still be inconspicuous enough to be effective in conducting surveillance. 30 years the limitations were far greater.

All of this had a bigger influence on the outcome of the Miami shooting than terminal ballistics.

[HCM]

Never met a shot person who had a strong opinion on the caliber of the gun that shot them. Most times they were too busy being resuscitated.

Says the ER Doc......

Speaking of Docs, I recall Doc GKR talking about how he would happily carry 9mm FMJ if someone gave him enough practice ammo ....and something about Shot Placement being more important than caliber or bullet type ....

[GlorifiedMailman]

Advances in ammunition technology over the last 20 years have greatly decreased the gap between 9mm and .45 ACP. The FBI has entirely switched to 9mm again. One of the main reasons was that the major service calibers all did pretty much the same thing, so why carry fewer rounds that recoiled more?

Don't these same advances in ammunition technology apply to the larger calibers as well, maintaining that gap in performance?

[HCM]

What about .45’s increased wound channel as compared to 9mm? In the Law Enforcement Bulletin released by the FBI in November of 1989, they seemed to put some importance on the volume of tissue/gel displaced by the projectile. The 10mm and .45 produced much larger wound volumes than the 147gr 9mm load. Now I realize that these were all much more inferior projectiles than what we have today, but isn’t it still true that, with two otherwise identical well-designed loadings in both 9mm and .45, the .45 would still create a larger wound channel than the 9mm?

It seems to be something that LE doesn’t put as much emphasis on wound volume anymore. Has it just shown to be irrelevant in incapacitation? I realize the body is a essentially a hydraulic sponge as was pointed out, but all else being equal does the increased wound cavity provided by the .45 matter?

No, it doesn't. 1989 was 30 years ago. The study of terminal ballistics and the design of anti personnel bullets have come a long way since then.

I like .45 and own several, illogical as it is but I carry a 9mm at work by choice and have for some time.

Bullet performance being similar,or equal, I can shoot 9mm faster and it gives me more opportunities in the form of bullets before I have to reload. A particularly attractive feature if there is more than one bad guy. In articulating the logic behind his move to a Glock 35, and subsequently a G17, Tom Givens referred to the 1911s and revolvers he carried for decade as 1 to 2 bad guy guns and noted bad guys now often come in 3s (or more).

The late American Rifleman writer Finn Aagard, a former professional hunter in his native Africa opined that "shot placement is 90% of killing power."

Along those lines my personal theory on the .45 acp's reputation as a "man stopper" is based on the superior ergonomics and "shootability" of the 1911 not superior terminal performance of the 45 acp round.

45 acp is no more or less effective than comparable service calibers.Most people suck shooting handguns. The 1911 has good ergonomics, a short light trigger and the trigger moves in a track rather than a pivot mitigating lateral errors.

Compared to most anything else available prior to the 1970s and 1980s the 1911 was the easiest gun to make good hits with under stress and time pressure. This translated into more hits and better shot placement, the real impetus behind the "legendary" performance of the .45.

[HCM]

Don't these same advances in ammunition technology apply to the larger calibers as well, maintaining that gap in performance?

No. There are diminishing returns.

The new technology greatly improved 9mm, slightly improved .45 - basically bringing both on par with .40 S&W. .40 performance has stayed flat.

The real advance in ammunition technology was not expansion or bigger wound channels, though expansion has become more reliable. It's barrier blind ammunition that gives "Goldilocks" performance - that 12' to 18' of penetration needed to reach the vital structures in the human body that cause incapacitation without exiting the body. What Kyle DeFoor refers to as "timers" (significant blood loss) and "switches" (Brain, brain stem, etc)

The performance of the 9mm Silver tip in Miami clearly shows this. The issue was failure to adequately penetrate and reach the heart after passing through an intermediate barrier (arm), not failure to create a large enough wound channel.

Modern barrier blind ammunition performs in this "sweet spot" even when it passes through intermediate barriers, whether vehicles, drywall, or bones. Too much penetration and the bullet punches a hole without dumping it's kinetic energy and now you have to worry about what it will hit next. Too little penetration and you create superficial wounds that do not reach the structures needed to incapacitate as seen in Miami.

.45 ACP is actually a poor performer on intermediate barriers, even with modern ammunition, because of the large frontal area of the bullet.

Prior to barrier blind bullets, 9mm rounds were usually either somewhat anemic 147 grain JHP's that were too slow to expand or penetrate reliably or fast light 115 grain bullets that either over expanded, limiting penetration when they hit flesh, or broke up when they hit intermediate barriers leaving the smaller pieces insufficient mass to penetrate adequately.

Prior to barrier blind bullets .40 and 45 had the mass to stay in one piece after passing through intermediate barriers, if the .45 made it through. .40 S&W was actually a "sweet spot" prior to barrier blind bullets as it had better penetration through intermediate barriers than .45 acp but still had enough mass to stay in one piece and adequately penetrate after passing through barriers.

Even with modern bullet technology few agencies using 9mm are carrying 115 grain. Most LE agencies carrying 9mm are carrying 124 or 147 grain +P or +P+ loads. A faster heavier bullet that stays in one piece after passing through barriers and penetrates adequately even when it expands in soft tissue.

As a youngster I started my career with a Ruger .357 revolver and could not wait to swap it out for a SIG P-220 with "by God" .45 caliber 185 grain JHP. When was that you might ask? Well, to quote Bob Valdez in Valdez is coming "Before I know better.




El Segundo : [after capturing Valdez] Like tobacco?

Bob Valdez : [quietly] No.

El Segundo : [after pausing and nervously clearing his throat] Tell me something... Who are you?

Bob Valdez : I told you once before - Bob Valdez.

El Segundo : [referring to Valdez's earlier marksmanship against his men] You know something, Bob Valdez, you hit one, I think, 700-800 yards.

Bob Valdez : [with certitude] Closer to a thousand.

El Segundo : What was it? Sharps?

Bob Valdez : [nods] My own load.

El Segundo : You ever hunt buffalo?

Bob Valdez : Apache.

El Segundo : I knew it. When?

Bob Valdez : Before I know better.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067921/characters/nm0000044

[Robinson]

Really?

To whom is your thoughtful query directed?

[Robinson]

HCM - somehow your posts remind me that I need to own a Super 38 1911 again.

[Navin Johnson]

To whom is your thoughtful query directed?

I notice my response came right after one of your posts and it was not directed at you as I did not quote you.

This is one of those bandwidth wasting threads that honest people are trying to help somebody who looks like they're trying to see how many replies they can get to a thread or how long they can keep it going.

In today's world with the information out there it is idiotic to discuss the slight variances in service caliber ammunition.

Therefore anyone doing that is just baiting or hasn't done any research. Again a waste of bandwidth.

With any luck at all this thread will descend into pressure spikes and defence of clear gel.

This is the type of discussion that drives the SMEs away instead of helping us.

[GlorifiedMailman]

No. There are diminishing returns.

The new technology greatly improved 9mm, slightly improved .45 - basically bringing both on par with .40 S&W. .40 performance has stayed flat.

The real advance in ammunition technology was not expansion or bigger wound channels, though expansion has become more reliable. It's barrier blind ammunition that gives "Goldilocks" performance - that 12' to 18' of penetration needed to reach the vital structures in the human body that cause incapacitation without exiting the body. What Kyle DeFoor refers to as "timers" (significant blood loss) and "switches" (Brain, brain stem, etc)

The performance of the 9mm Silver tip in Miami clearly shows this. The issue was failure to adequately penetrate and reach the heart after passing through an intermediate barrier (arm), not failure to create a large enough wound channel.

Modern barrier blind ammunition performs in this "sweet spot" even when it passes through intermediate barriers, whether vehicles, drywall, or bones. Too much penetration and the bullet punches a hole without dumping it's kinetic energy and now you have to worry about what it will hit next. Too little penetration and you create superficial wounds that do not reach the structures needed to incapacitate as seen in Miami.

.45 ACP is actually a poor performer on intermediate barriers, even with modern ammunition, because of the large frontal area of the bullet.

Prior to barrier blind bullets, 9mm rounds were usually either somewhat anemic 147 grain JHP's that were too slow to expand or penetrate reliably or fast light 115 grain bullets that either over expanded, limiting penetration when they hit flesh, or broke up when they hit intermediate barriers leaving the smaller pieces insufficient mass to penetrate adequately.

Prior to barrier blind bullets .40 and 45 had the mass to stay in one piece after passing through intermediate barriers, if the .45 made it through. .40 S&W was actually a "sweet spot" prior to barrier blind bullets as it had better penetration through intermediate barriers than .45 acp but still had enough mass to stay in one piece and adequately penetrate after passing through barriers.

Even with modern bullet technology few agencies using 9mm are carrying 115 grain. Most LE agencies carrying 9mm are carrying 124 or 147 grain +P or +P+ loads. A faster heavier bullet that stays in one piece after passing through barriers and penetrates adequately even when it expands in soft tissue.

As a youngster I started my career with a Ruger .357 revolver and could not wait to swap it out for a SIG P-220 with "by God" .45 caliber 185 grain JHP. When was that you might ask? Well, to quote Bob Valdez in Valdez is coming "Before I know better.

Thank you so much for this response. This actually hits about every nail on the head. Contrary to claims, I'm not seeking to just keep this subject going indefinitely. I simply wanted help with some questions that have come up after studying the wealth of information in this site and others.

This pretty much puts to rest any doubt in my mind. I will continue to carry, train, and practice with 9mm as I have before. I probably won't ever completely get rid of every .45, but they're largely retired now as I focus my efforts on my two Glock 19 Gen 5's.

[the Schwartz]

I notice my response came right after one of your posts and it was not directed at you as I did not quote you.

This is one of those bandwidth wasting threads that honest people are trying to help somebody who looks like they're trying to see how many replies they can get to a thread or how long they can keep it going.

In today's world with the information out there it is idiotic to discuss the slight variances in service caliber ammunition.

Therefore anyone doing that is just baiting or hasn't done any research. Again a waste of bandwidth.

With any luck at all this thread will descend into pressure spikes and defence of clear gel.

This is the type of discussion that drives the SMEs away instead of helping us.

There is a tremendous amount of misinformation and disinformation on the topic that contributes to the "noise" obscuring the "signal".

[Det1397]

Thanks HCM and the other SMEs that have responded- outstanding information... refer to Doc ( https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo ) and let's move on. Remember to practice, then practice more- bullet placement is KING. My one (and only OIS) back in 1999 involved a subject that was high enough on heroin and cocaine that he should have been unconscious- but he wasn't.
My G19 was loaded with old school Federal 124 grain +p+ Hydra Shok JHP. Thankfully, due to my extensive training and practice, I was able to place three rounds exactly where they needed to go and I went home to my wife and kids that day.
Remember to practice, then practice more.

[Totem Polar]

Not much to add except to tip my hat to HCM for a pretty damn good "nutshell’ summary of a long-debated, and thankfully, much-researched topic. :)

[BBMW]

I buy part of this, necessary depth of penetration, and barrier blindness for expansion (especially for LE), but I just don't buy the fact that expanded diameter doesn't matter, or that it has a point of diminishing returns. If that was the case, FMJ would would rule. It doesn't. A bullet with a bigger diameter destroys more tissue, causing more bleeding, and increases the chance of hitting something important with any give shot. If you don't hit one of the "switches" (which is exceedingly difficult in a combat situation), getting the target to bleed out more quickly is critical. And note that a small increase in expanded diameter creates a large increase in frontal area.


No. There are diminishing returns.

The new technology greatly improved 9mm, slightly improved .45 - basically bringing both on par with .40 S&W. .40 performance has stayed flat.

The real advance in ammunition technology was not expansion or bigger wound channels, though expansion has become more reliable. It's barrier blind ammunition that gives "Goldilocks" performance - that 12' to 18' of penetration needed to reach the vital structures in the human body that cause incapacitation without exiting the body. What Kyle DeFoor refers to as "timers" (significant blood loss) and "switches" (Brain, brain stem, etc)

The performance of the 9mm Silver tip in Miami clearly shows this. The issue was failure to adequately penetrate and reach the heart after passing through an intermediate barrier (arm), not failure to create a large enough wound channel.

Modern barrier blind ammunition performs in this "sweet spot" even when it passes through intermediate barriers, whether vehicles, drywall, or bones. Too much penetration and the bullet punches a hole without dumping it's kinetic energy and now you have to worry about what it will hit next. Too little penetration and you create superficial wounds that do not reach the structures needed to incapacitate as seen in Miami.

.45 ACP is actually a poor performer on intermediate barriers, even with modern ammunition, because of the large frontal area of the bullet.

Prior to barrier blind bullets, 9mm rounds were usually either somewhat anemic 147 grain JHP's that were too slow to expand or penetrate reliably or fast light 115 grain bullets that either over expanded, limiting penetration when they hit flesh, or broke up when they hit intermediate barriers leaving the smaller pieces insufficient mass to penetrate adequately.

Prior to barrier blind bullets .40 and 45 had the mass to stay in one piece after passing through intermediate barriers, if the .45 made it through. .40 S&W was actually a "sweet spot" prior to barrier blind bullets as it had better penetration through intermediate barriers than .45 acp but still had enough mass to stay in one piece and adequately penetrate after passing through barriers.

Even with modern bullet technology few agencies using 9mm are carrying 115 grain. Most LE agencies carrying 9mm are carrying 124 or 147 grain +P or +P+ loads. A faster heavier bullet that stays in one piece after passing through barriers and penetrates adequately even when it expands in soft tissue.

As a youngster I started my career with a Ruger .357 revolver and could not wait to swap it out for a SIG P-220 with "by God" .45 caliber 185 grain JHP. When was that you might ask? Well, to quote Bob Valdez in Valdez is coming "Before I know better.



https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067921/characters/nm0000044

[GlorifiedMailman]

I've also seen DocGKR and others state that, if forced to use FMJ, they would choose larger calibers like .45 Auto. That would make it seem like there actually is enough of a difference to matter between the diameters of 9mm and .45. I was always under the impression that the difference between 9mm and .45 FMJ wasn't that much, and the increased capacity, lower recoil, etc of 9mm made it better.

[0ddl0t]

A bullet with a bigger diameter destroys more tissue, causing more bleeding, and increases the chance of hitting something important with any give shot. If you don't hit one of the "switches" (which is exceedingly difficult in a combat situation), getting the target to bleed out more quickly is critical. And note that a small increase in expanded diameter creates a large increase in frontal area.

FMJ diameter:
9mm = 9mm
.40 = 10mm
.45 = 11.4mm

Expanded JHP diameter:
9mm ~= 15mm
.40 ~= 17mm
.45 ~= 19mm

But the typical artery is ~3mm wide with the largest being 10-25mm. Does a 19mm bullet really do all that much more damage to a 10mm artery than a 15mm bullet?

https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45038&stc=1&d=1574281401

[HCM]

I buy part of this, necessary depth of penetration, and barrier blindness for expansion (especially for LE), but I just don't buy the fact that expanded diameter doesn't matter, or that it has a point of diminishing returns. If that was the case, FMJ would would rule. It doesn't. A bullet with a bigger diameter destroys more tissue, causing more bleeding, and increases the chance of hitting something important with any give shot. If you don't hit one of the "switches" (which is exceedingly difficult in a combat situation), getting the target to bleed out more quickly is critical. And note that a small increase in expanded diameter creates a large increase in frontal area.

You can not buy that the earth is round but that doesn’t make it flat. Living tissue is elastic. Unless it is the rare situation where the diameter is the difference between nicking or missing a major blood vessel there is no practical difference.

The primary negative issue with FMJ is over penetration. Expanded JHP often cuts as well as crushes as it passed through tissue but that a difference in the mechanism of injury. In that case a 9mm JHP expanded to 45 could be slightly more effective than a 45 FMJ even though they are the same size. But the difference between expanded 9mm and expanded 45 acp are negligible.

[HCM]

I've also seen DocGKR and others state that, if forced to use FMJ, they would choose larger calibers like .45 Auto. That would make it seem like there actually is enough of a difference to matter between the diameters of 9mm and .45. I was always under the impression that the difference between 9mm and .45 FMJ wasn't that much, and the increased capacity, lower recoil, etc of 9mm made it better.

How long ago ?

Last I recall he said he would have no issue carrying 9mm FMJ if someone were giving him 10-20k a year of it to maintain real proficiency.

Regardless it comes down to shot placement trumping everything. And no matter how good you are even if you are Rob Latham in a real fight someone could get lucky or you could it be unlucky for that one in 1 million time. There are no guarantees and obsessing over magic bullets and which service caliber is better is a gigantic waste of time. If someone is giving you free 40 or 45 ammo go shoot it and don’t look back. If you are paying for your own ammo 9 mm will get you more training and practice which equals greater proficiency and a Greater chance of making an affective hit when you need to.

That’s as good as it gets.

There are plenty of individuals in the law-enforcement military and Intel community who work overseas and are required to use whatever equipment and ammunition is locally provided. If guys can run around Africa and southwest Asia with Glock 19 full of FM J and not get killed in the streets I’m pretty sure you’re OK here conus. Barrier blind JHP ammo is nice to have but it is not essential

It is very much the Indian not the arrow.

[HopetonBrown]

GlorifiedMailnan and BBMW, would you two care to share your average 25y B8 score or FAST test, because I'm curious if you put equal effort and energy into shooting as you do in caliber debates.

[BehindBlueI's]

Obviously bullet for bullet, the 9mm will be inferior, physics dictates that.

Any common duty caliber bullet that disrupts the right tissues/structures will work equally, biology dictates that. A .45 through the brain doesn't work any better or any worse than a 9mm through the brain or a .357 magnum through the brain, etc. A disrupted spinal cord, a severed artery, etc. All samey-same.

[0ddl0t]

I've also seen DocGKR and others state that, if forced to use FMJ, they would choose larger calibers like .45 Auto.


How long ago ?

Last I recall he said he would have no issue carrying 9mm FMJ if someone were giving him 10-20k a year of it to maintain real proficiency.

The closest I've seen is this statement from May 2015:


.45 ACP makes the most sense in states with idiotic 10 rd magazine restrictions, in departments that give you lots of free .45 Auto ammo, or in situations where modern expanding ammunition is restricted due to asinine, illogical regulations.

[GlorifiedMailman]

The closest I've seen is this statement from May 2015:

Yes, that is the instance that comes immediately to mind, though I'm pretty sure I've seen it elsewhere as well.

[BehindBlueI's]

The closest I've seen is this statement from May 2015:

I recall asking about that and it was largely a function of magazines that worked as opposed to many of the 9mm neutered mags at the time.

I often use a .45 as my out of town gun because I'd rather have a full sized single stack then a compact double stack. Hell, last trip I took a revolver and survived to tell the tale.

[El Cid]

I recall asking about that and it was largely a function of magazines that worked as opposed to many of the 9mm neutered mags at the time.

I often use a .45 as my out of town gun because I'd rather have a full sized single stack then a compact double stack. Hell, last trip I took a revolver and survived to tell the tale.

That’s what I remember as well. In fact Doc has posted pics of his G19 he carries. The grip was chopped to take G26 mags, so even when limited to 10 he had a 9mm on him.

[the Schwartz]

I recall asking about that and it was largely a function of magazines that worked as opposed to many of the 9mm neutered mags at the time.

I often use a .45 as my out of town gun because I'd rather have a full sized single stack then a compact double stack. Hell, last trip I took a revolver and survived to tell the tale.

I have the same preference for a full sized single stack over the abbreviated grip of a compact. Having even one of my fingers partially hanging off the end of the grip is irritating enough that it interferes with how I shoot. I take it you have the same preference for teh same reason as I, or is there something else that I've missed?

[Galbraith]

The simple answer is to first get good quality training, and train often......then train some more with other peoples equipment(borrow/rent/buy). Once you think you have trained well and tried a wide variety of drills, then go find a different teacher and train with them(repeat even into old age). Study, and make it a passion to gain knowledge within the box, and outside the box of everything firearms related. Be open minded, but listen to ALL opinions with a grain of salt that needs further verification. After a while, your experiences begin to lead you in a direction that will best fit within your own strengths and weaknesses regardless of what the mainstream may be following at the moment.

All the major service calibers work if you do your part and your shots hit vital anatomy. It helps more if you use modern, good quality defensive ammunition. Many people favor the 9mm now days because it is generally easier for "most" people to target that vital anatomy, and if a shot fails to hit that anatomy, the 9mm's characteristics make it easier to try to hit it again, and again, and again......usually 15 to 18 chances before the gun stops going bang and it is time to stop pulling the trigger and perform a different task. With larger/stronger calibers that task can be more difficult, particularly if you must shoot single handed. These days I use .45acp on duty, and 9mm off duty. I have my reasons, but most importantly I can shoot my duty .45acp often better in meaningful, timed courses of fire than I can with other chambering in the same platform. It doesn't hurt that I get a decent supply of free .45acp training ammo. The simple physics of 9mm give me a "tad" faster splits in follow-ups, but my accuracy and groups are measurably better all the way beyond 50yrds. Other criteria for me are that I can also shoot the .45 quite well in courses of fire where I must shoot off-hand, or primary hand only. I am of course handicapped by having only 10+1 rounds on tap, but it makes me a very accomplished reloader compared to my 9mm counterparts. These are things that I determined after thousands of rounds of testing a particular platform and caliber, thousands more rounds in other tested calibers. What works for me, may not work for you. You have to dedicate yourself to getting the experience........the instruction, the practice, and the exposure to the topic.

[GlorifiedMailman]

The simple answer is to first get good quality training, and train often......then train some more with other peoples equipment(borrow/rent/buy). Once you think you have trained well and tried a wide variety of drills, then go find a different teacher and train with them(repeat even into old age). Study, and make it a passion to gain knowledge within the box, and outside the box of everything firearms related. Be open minded, but listen to ALL opinions with a grain of salt that needs further verification. After a while, your experiences begin to lead you in a direction that will best fit within your own strengths and weaknesses regardless of what the mainstream may be following at the moment.

All the major service calibers work if you do your part and your shots hit vital anatomy. It helps more if you use modern, good quality defensive ammunition. Many people favor the 9mm now days because it is generally easier for "most" people to target that vital anatomy, and if a shot fails to hit that anatomy, the 9mm's characteristics make it easier to try to hit it again, and again, and again......usually 15 to 18 chances before the gun stops going bang and it is time to stop pulling the trigger and perform a different task. With larger/stronger calibers that task can be more difficult, particularly if you must shoot single handed. These days I use .45acp on duty, and 9mm off duty. I have my reasons, but most importantly I can shoot my duty .45acp often better in meaningful, timed courses of fire than I can with other chambering in the same platform. It doesn't hurt that I get a decent supply of free .45acp training ammo. The simple physics of 9mm give me a "tad" faster splits in follow-ups, but my accuracy and groups are measurably better all the way beyond 50yrds. Other criteria for me are that I can also shoot the .45 quite well in courses of fire where I must shoot off-hand, or primary hand only. I am of course handicapped by having only 10+1 rounds on tap, but it makes me a very accomplished reloader compared to my 9mm counterparts. These are things that I determined after thousands of rounds of testing a particular platform and caliber, thousands more rounds in other tested calibers. What works for me, may not work for you. You have to dedicate yourself to getting the experience........the instruction, the practice, and the exposure to the topic.

Thank you for the advice. I'm signed up for a reputable class this December, and I hope to learn valuable knowledge and skills.

Just out of curiosity, what 10+1 .45 do you carry on duty that you shoot better than your 9mm, and what is your 9mm?

[Navin Johnson]

GlorifiedMailnan and BBMW, would you two care to share your average 25y B8 score or FAST test, because I'm curious if you put equal effort and energy into shooting as you do in caliber debates.

[JRB]

Can we please get a mod or admin to take HCM's posts and put them in a 'read this before talking about caliber selection' sticky thread? It's some top shelf commentary that really does cover all the bases.

[Default.mp3]

Any common duty caliber bullet that disrupts the right tissues/structures will work equally, biology dictates that. A .45 through the brain doesn't work any better or any worse than a 9mm through the brain or a .357 magnum through the brain, etc. A disrupted spinal cord, a severed artery, etc. All samey-same.Sure, that's where the "good enough" comes along. A bigger bullet will give you more leeway, a little more chance to sever that artery or spinal cord; there's also the argument of more KE gives you a bit more barrier penetration. Of course, as previously noted, that size difference is pretty minuscule, and quality bonded ammo of the three main calibers don't have that much difference when it comes to barrier performance (yeah yeah, there's always the rare scenario where the 9mm won't have enough KE after a barrier to penetrate a skull or something while a .40 S&W can), so... yeah.

[hiro]

As HopetonBrown said: GlorifiedMailman and BBMW, would you two care to share your average 25y B8 score or FAST test, because I'm curious if you put equal effort and energy into shooting as you do in caliber debates.

[YVK]

FMJ diameter:
9mm = 9mm
.40 = 10mm
.45 = 11.4mm

Expanded JHP diameter:
9mm ~= 15mm
.40 ~= 17mm
.45 ~= 19mm

But the typical artery is ~3mm wide with the largest being 10-25mm. Does a 19mm bullet really do all that much more damage to a 10mm artery than a 15mm bullet?



I don't know a whole lot about bullets but I know a little about arteries. Yes, indeed we have documented well enough statistically that size of a hole in artery matters. Hemorrhagic complications from femoral artery (most fall into 6-10 mm diameter) cannulations have decreased with the use of smaller size arterial sheaths. We're talking about reducing the hole size just by 0.66-1.0 mm and in conditions when we're actively watching the site and trying to reduce the chance of bleed. So if somebody had one bullet and was going to shoot me in my groin, or armpit etc, I would've preferred to take a 9 over 45 just to decrease the odds.

The issue is not relative damage under theoretical circumstances. The issue is that small size of vital targets (by these I mean arteries) relatively to aiming target (torso, COM, whatever you call it) and small size of projectiles bring a significant amount of randomness as to whether the artery is going to get hit at all, or if it will be a partial hit, a tear, a transsection etc. Add already commented on ability of human body to sustain and survive even a major vascular trauma (we have people survive traumatic transsections of aorta or ruptured aortic aneurysms occasionally) and you get to where you cannot discern any statistical difference in outcomes. I carry 9 because I want more bullets to increase the number of attempts (hits) and hence odds of hitting a good artery, because of package form factor (weight, size, concealment) and relative shootability of 9 over 45 considering that I would only carry polymer these days. If we got a hi-cap mag ban tomorrow and weight/size weren't a consideration, I would have likely chosen a larger caliber.


Oh, and my official FAST is 5.4 or 5.6 with iron sighted P30, I don't remember exactly and I doubt Ernest wrote it down. I don't shoot B8 at 25, but I can, but then again I use dots these so it shouldn't really count.

[GlorifiedMailman]

"Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and hit an 8 inch circle at 3 yards in under 2 seconds, COLD, every time?

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform, and do a FAST Test in under 10 seconds, COLD, every time with no points down?

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform, taking a big step off line and hit an 8 inch circle at 5 yards, with 5 rounds, in under 4 secs., COLD, every time?

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and hit an 8 inch plate at 10 yrds, at will, COLD, every time with no time constraints?( bang, tink, bang, tink, bang, tink etc.)

Can you present from your preferred concealed carry system with your preferred platform and shoot a 5 shoot group at 5 yrds that you can cover with a credit card, COLD, every time with no time constraints?

Have you taken any formal training beyond a CCW class in the last 24 months?"

1. Yes
2. Not in under 10 seconds... yet. This is one that I'm working on.
3. It takes me longer than 4 seconds, but I'm slowly shaving that time down
4. Yes
5. Yes

I definitely have my work cut out for me.

[Galbraith]

Just out of curiosity, what 10+1 .45 do you carry on duty that you shoot better than your 9mm, and what is your 9mm?

I am only authorized to carry classic DA/SA Sigs or the P320 and P365 series. I am currently using the P320 full sized .45acp, and the P365xl 9mm off duty. I was using the regular P365 for a while, but found that I shot the XL model significantly better, so I switched to that. I do not have as many rounds downrange with the XL that I had with the regular model.

Prior to switching to the P320 .45, I had used two P320 full sized 9mms. The first was a pre "upgrade" model, and the second was an upgraded model. I shot both 9mm versions better than I shot my previous generation P220s, P226s, and P229s in meaningful, timed courses of fire. I had been a dedicated P226 9mm user for a number of years prior to that, and my default decision was to continue using 9mm in the P320 series. However, after giving the P320FS .45 a try, I became intrigued with its capabilities. In the standard FAST drill, I would get scores in the low 5s with the 9mm version, and my times in the .45 were only about .15s slower......yet my accuracy and groupings were tighter in the .45acp. Whether it be the Hateful 8, or Bill Drills this trend with the .45 version continued. At 50yrds with duty ammo using a rest, my accuracy and groupings were again tighter with the .45acp than the 9mm versions. Another interesting observation at that range was that in a crosswind the 9mm suffered wind drift to a degree that it threw shots off target and the .45(and .40S&W) were virtually unaffected. I added a second P320FS .45 to my inventory, and it exhibited similarly great performance. I also tested a coworkers P320FS in .40S&W with the large grip model, and if I were not already invested in the .45 models I would be VERY tempted to use that. It proved to be one of the more accurate, reliable, and soft shooting .40S&W pistols I have ever shot.

I have shot two versions of the P320 X5/Legion pistols, and they are exceptionally good 9mm guns which I would admit that I shoot better than my P320 .45s. They utilize a longer sight radius, a thicker and longer bull barrel, and a weighted frame. There are issues with the design right now so I'm not intrigued enough to buy them until they are changed. Plus, for the price of one Legion I can buy two P320s and double the magazines. However, if money were of less concern I would strongly consider going with the P320 9mm Legion.

[Borderland]

I tried to like 9mm. So far I've had two 9mm pistols in my entire life. Those I purchased in the last 3 years. I just sold one and replaced it with a 45. The other one I'll keep because it's a compact and conceals nicely. Lets just say I'm not a fan. If I had a duty pistol it wouldn't be a 9mm. The US military F'd up yugely when they decided to keep 9mm.

Don't try to confuse me with facts or endorsements. I know what I know and will never know what I don't want to know. :)


If we got a hi-cap mag ban tomorrow and weight/size weren't a consideration, I would have likely chosen a larger caliber.

That should settle the debate forever.

[Doc_Glock]

FMJ diameter:
9mm = 9mm
.40 = 10mm
.45 = 11.4mm

Expanded JHP diameter:
9mm ~= 15mm
.40 ~= 17mm
.45 ~= 19mm

Flow rate through a hole is related to the fourth power of the radius, so yeah, a little more hole goes a long way when it comes to increasing bleeding.

Example: a 19mm hole has the potential to flow 2.5 times the amount of a 15mm hole. (assuming I did the math right).

And none of that matters because clinically and historically all pistol bullets above 9mm work about the same at producing incapacitation.

[the Schwartz]

I tried to like 9mm. So far I've had two 9mm pistols in my entire life. Those I purchased in the last 3 years. I just sold one and replaced it with a 45. The other one I'll keep because it's a compact and conceals nicely. Lets just say I'm not a fan. If I had a duty pistol it wouldn't be a 9mm. The US military F'd up yugely when they decided to keep 9mm.

Don't try to confuse me with facts or endorsements. I know what I know and will never know what I don't want to know. :)

That should settle the debate forever.

*Exactly how many gun fights did you lose before concluding that you were "not a fan" of the 9mm? :o












*Disclaimer: While I am certain to a fault that Borderland will see this for the humor that I intended, for those with a broken or missing "funny bone", the material in this post is strictly intended as humor and nothing more than humor.

[the Schwartz]

Flow rate through a hole is related to the fourth power of the radius, so yeah, a little more hole goes a long way when it comes to increasing bleeding.

Example: a 19mm hole has the potential to flow 2.5 times the amount of a 15mm hole. (assuming I did the math right).

And none of that matters because clinically and historically all pistol bullets above 9mm work about the same at producing incapacitation.

As much as I favor equations and mathematical modeling of terminal ballistic phenomena, other factors should be considered when discussing the rate of flow of blood involving tissues in the human body:


Never seen any mathematical equation or computer model which accurately accounts for all the variations in physiology which can and do occur with projectile tissue interactions. As noted, tissue retraction, clotting, blood pressure, are just a few of the variables that dramatically alter the wounding effects.

I know that you (Doc_Glock) are well aware of this, but I provide Dr. Roberts' commentary for those who are unaware of these factors.

[Borderland]

*Exactly how many gun fights did you lose before concluding that you were "not a fan" of the 9mm? :o










*Disclaimer: While I am certain to a fault that Borderland will see this for the humor that I intended, for those with a broken or missing "funny bone", the material in this post is strictly intended as humor and nothing more than humor.

said Rep. Jim Jordan (R-Ohio) in a proceeding to defend the 9mm from being replaced. :D

That's some funny shit amigo. I think I'll read your book.

[the Schwartz]

said Rep. Jim Jordan (R-Ohio) in a proceeding to defend the 9mm from being replaced. :D

Now that right there is funny! :cool:

[0ddl0t]

Flow rate through a hole is related to the fourth power of the radius, so yeah, a little more hole goes a long way when it comes to increasing bleeding.
That's true if you poke a hole in a container holding fluid. But not if you completely sever a 3mm tube with either bullet (or cut a 25mm tube in half with expanded 9mm vs 62% with expanded .45)

[Doc_Glock]

That's true if you poke a hole in a container holding fluid. But not if you completely sever a 3mm tube with either bullet (or cut a 25mm tube in half with expanded 9mm vs 62% with expanded .45)

Ah, very true. I misunderstood your original point.

[spinmove_]

I tried to like 9mm. So far I've had two 9mm pistols in my entire life. Those I purchased in the last 3 years. I just sold one and replaced it with a 45. The other one I'll keep because it's a compact and conceals nicely. Lets just say I'm not a fan. If I had a duty pistol it wouldn't be a 9mm. The US military F'd up yugely when they decided to keep 9mm.

Don't try to confuse me with facts or endorsements. I know what I know and will never know what I don't want to know. :)



That should settle the debate forever.

I’m probably going to regret this, but how exactly did the military screw up by keeping pistols chambered in 9mm?

[GlorifiedMailman]

And none of that matters because clinically and historically all pistol bullets above 9mm work about the same at producing incapacitation.

Do you mean all pistol bullets 9mm and above, or starting above (larger than) 9mm?

[Doc_Glock]

Do you mean all pistol bullets 9mm and above, or starting above (larger than) 9mm?

9mm and above.

[BBMW]

You state this like it's fact without presenting any evidence. I asked Doc Roberts this question, and he agreed with me (to a certain extent, with qualifications)

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?36032-A-question-to-Doc-the-importance-of-expansion-to-incapacitation/page2

The actual expansion numbers make a difference. I used published expansion number from Speer for their gold dot loads in 9mm and .40. The frontal area difference was just under 40%. Other comparable load from other manufacturers might be different.

But if you have any REAL proof, from accepted sources, that greater expansion does NOT equal greater incapacitation capability, please put it out there.


You can not buy that the earth is round but that doesn’t make it flat. Living tissue is elastic. Unless it is the rare situation where the diameter is the difference between nicking or missing a major blood vessel there is no practical difference.


This is actively nonsense. 9mm FMJ rounds were known terrible man stoppers. This greatly slowed 9mm's acceptance for LE. Of course LE had it's own terrible round, the .38 158 gr round nose lead bullet. Both did the same thing. They drilled small, clean holes all the way through the target, causing minimal damage, allowing the target to stay up and fighting. Overpenetration was a secondary negative effect. But the primary negative was lack of performance. 9mm didn't see much real LE use until expanding rounds that fed reliably started coming into use. Of course these had underpenetration issues (usually with 115 grain loads).



The primary negative issue with FMJ is over penetration. Expanded JHP often cuts as well as crushes as it passed through tissue but that a difference in the mechanism of injury. In that case a 9mm JHP expanded to 45 could be slightly more effective than a 45 FMJ even though they are the same size. But the difference between expanded 9mm and expanded 45 acp are negligible.

[Borderland]

I’m probably going to regret this, but how exactly did the military screw up by keeping pistols chambered in 9mm?

This is the pistol they should have purchased. Reasons are there. The 45 ACP worked for the military for 69 years. Nothing much has changed in the pistol cartridge world unless I missed it.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/armys-big-mistake-why-hk45-one-best-handguns-around-26551

[HopetonBrown]

Can we just block the ballistic flat earthers so we don't have to keep going through this shit, until they can supply a video of them doing a 10 second FAST?

This is a forum for teachers and students of the pistol, not students and teachers of caliber religion.

[Borderland]

Hell, last trip I took a revolver and survived to tell the tale.

That's amazing. ;)

[Borderland]

Can we just block the ballistic flat earthers so we don't have to keep going through this shit, until they can supply a video of them doing a 10 second FAST?

This is a forum for teachers and students of the pistol, not students and teachers of caliber religion.

There are some LE, special ops and some spooks here to. :D

[jd950]

There are some LE, special ops and some spooks here to. :D

And being in such an occupation is not necessarily mutually exclusive with being "teachers and students of the pistol."

Any forum dealing with handguns and handgun ammunition will have these discussions/arguments occur. It is unavoidable short of severe moderation. Unfortunately, there are actually valid points to be discussed about caliber and bullet weight differences
and effectiveness in certain contexts, but such discussions quickly morph into the usual disagreements and thus rarely take place.

I have come close to trying to discuss calibers and bullet weights in the context of law enforcement use and intermediate barriers, and in particular auto glass and sheet metal and the increasingly common laminated side windows in vehicles, but I have resisted, knowing how such a discussion will quickly go off the rails.

[HopetonBrown]

There are some LE, special ops and some spooks here to. :DI kindly suggest you think really hard about what being a teacher or student of the pistol means in the context the forum creators intended. Maybe take a 1 or 2 day break from posting to make sure you've spent enough time reflecting.

[HCM]

You state this like it's fact without presenting any evidence. I asked Doc Roberts this question, and he agreed with me (to a certain extent, with qualifications)

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?36032-A-question-to-Doc-the-importance-of-expansion-to-incapacitation/page2

The actual expansion numbers make a difference. I used published expansion number from Speer for their gold dot loads in 9mm and .40. The frontal area difference was just under 40%. Other comparable load from other manufacturers might be different.

But if you have any REAL proof, from accepted sources, that greater expansion does NOT equal greater incapacitation capability, please put it out there.



This is actively nonsense. 9mm FMJ rounds were known terrible man stoppers. This greatly slowed 9mm's acceptance for LE. Of course LE had it's own terrible round, the .38 158 gr round nose lead bullet. Both did the same thing. They drilled small, clean holes all the way through the target, causing minimal damage, allowing the target to stay up and fighting. Overpenetration was a secondary negative effect. But the primary negative was lack of performance. 9mm didn't see much real LE use until expanding rounds that fed reliably started coming into use. Of course these had underpenetration issues (usually with 115 grain loads).

Anecdotal data about 9mm FMJ and 38 Spl Lead solids is just that- anectdotal. All hits are not created equal.

9mm NATO FMJ as used in the GWOT has proven quite effective in the hands of people who can actually shoot and hit vital structures. Over penetration is a problem but that is a separate issue from shot placement being THE factor in effectiveness.

Most military members, like most cops can’t shoot a handgun for shit. Same thing applies to .38 solids. Pat Rogers and other NYPD gun fight survivors I’m personally acquainted with all pretty much say the same thing about the NYPD’s prior Duty load, the 158 grain +P LSWC (not hollow point) - that it “worked pretty good if you could shoot.”

There are advantages to barrier blind JHP ammunition and it is preferable to FMJ. But it also flattens the differences in performance between service pistol calibers.

Marginal hits = marginal performance. People don’t want to hear that shot placement trumps magic bullets or that it’s the Indian, not the arrow because it means the outcome of lethal force encounters are always uncertain. What if I miss ?
Magic bullets / calibers are like a talisman that will make sure they come out ok. If a ballistic lucky rabbits foot makes you feel better do what you want, but that doesn’t negate decades of repeatable scientific terminal ballistics testing validated by correlation with actual shooting results.

[HCM]

There are some LE, special ops and some spooks here to. :D

And most are the “students and teachers of the pistol” within their respective groups. Those roles require a broad spectrum of skill sets beyond firearms.

That does highlight that those who do this for a living are all falling on one side and the other side is exclusively composed of arm chair theorists.

[Nephrology]

This is actively nonsense. 9mm FMJ rounds were known terrible man stoppers.

Lol, I've literally had my arm up to my elbow in the chest of a dude who got shot with 1x 9mm ball cartridge. He was pretty dead. Seemed like it worked to me!

[Hambo]

I know what I know and will never know what I don't want to know.

Honesty is the best policy.


Nothing much has changed in the pistol cartridge world unless I missed it.]

Evidently you missed the last twenty years of bullet design.

[revchuck38]

There are some LE, special ops and some spooks here to. :D

...and some "useta be" ones, too. ;)

[spinmove_]

This is the pistol they should have purchased. Reasons are there. The 45 ACP worked for the military for 69 years. Nothing much has changed in the pistol cartridge world unless I missed it.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/armys-big-mistake-why-hk45-one-best-handguns-around-26551

I saw literally nothing in that article that tells me why .45Auto would have been a better choice over 9mm for the military. Maybe you can point it out to me?

[spinmove_]

9mm FMJ rounds were known terrible man stoppers.

I’m sorry, what? Can you show me how a person shot with a 9mm bullet in the same exact place as someone else shot with a .45Auto bullet is somehow less affected? Cause I’m pretty sure there are entire swaths of dudes in graves that would disgree with your assessment.

They’re just pistols guys. All they’re doing is poking holes of various slightly different sizes. That’s it.

[Le Français]

Nothing much has changed in the pistol cartridge world unless I missed it.

You missed it.

[spinmove_]

Borderland: “Nothing much has changed in the pistol cartridge world unless I missed it.”

You missed it.

Exactly. A LOT has changed in the last 30 years. Today’s HSTs and Gold Dots are vastly different than yesterday’s Silvertips and Hydra-Shoks, regardless of caliber.

[Borderland]

I saw literally nothing in that article that tells me why .45Auto would have been a better choice over 9mm for the military. Maybe you can point it out to me?

I was basing on the fact that the military specified 45 ACP to begin in the search for a new pistol. Budget cuts killed it. So I guess if you consider budgets 9mm is your cartridge.

Anyway, some are having a melt down over cartridge discussions so I'll try not to discuss it anymore to lower their blood pressure a bit.

[HCM]

I was basing on the fact that the military specified 45 ACP to begin in the search for a new pistol. Budget cuts killed it. So I guess if you consider budgets 9mm is your cartridge.

Anyway, some are having a melt down over cartridge discussions so I'll try not to discuss it anymore to lower their blood pressure a bit.

Tne MHS program did not specify a caliber / cartridge.

While thiscan be a way to “see what’s out there.” It is problematic from a weapons selection POV. You pick a load THEN pick something g to launch it reliably and accurately.

[spinmove_]

I was basing on the fact that the military specified 45 ACP to begin in the search for a new pistol. Budget cuts killed it. So I guess if you consider budgets 9mm is your cartridge.

Anyway, some are having a melt down over cartridge discussions so I'll try not to discuss it anymore to lower their blood pressure a bit.

What HCM said. The MHS Trials never specified caliber and there was speculation at certain points that the chosen pistol could have gone back to .45Auto or even .40S&W. The article that you linked didn’t specify such a thing either. The article that you linked was really just an HK45 ad. It’s a great pistol, but it doesn’t really prove or disprove anything germane to this discussion nor did it answer any of the questions I posed to you.

You don’t like 9mm? That’s fine. I have no problem with that. But if you’re saying that 9mm is woefully insufficient as a duty grade caliber, you’re objectively incorrect. Plain and simple.

[Borderland]

Honesty is the best policy.



Evidently you missed the last twenty years of bullet design.



Do you mean stuff like this?


https://youtu.be/73Eg6lEGDIc

[El Cid]

Do you mean stuff like this?


https://youtu.be/73Eg6lEGDIc

Powerball ammo is your proof?? Lmao!

Folks I think we are just feeding the trolls at this point.

[WobblyPossum]

I think this is one of those things where some people just won’t believe unless they see the data. The data isn’t publicly available so their options are to take the words of strangers on the internet who claim to have seen the data, or to continue believing whatever they’re already comfortable with. There are numerous people posting who have seen the data. You can choose to believe them when they say that all the major service calibers do practically the same thing or you can choose not to. Too many people are emotionally invested in their preferred caliber.

[HCM]

I was basing on the fact that the military specified 45 ACP to begin in the search for a new pistol. Budget cuts killed it. So I guess if you consider budgets 9mm is your cartridge.

Anyway, some are having a melt down over cartridge discussions so I'll try not to discuss it anymore to lower their blood pressure a bit.


Tne MHS program did not specify a caliber / cartridge.

While thiscan be a way to “see what’s out there.” It is problematic from a weapons selection POV. You pick a load THEN pick something g to launch it reliably and accurately.


What HCM said. The MHS Trials never specified caliber and there was speculation at certain points that the chosen pistol could have gone back to .45Auto or even .40S&W. The article that you linked didn’t specify such a thing either. The article that you linked was really just an HK45 ad. It’s a great pistol, but it doesn’t really prove or disprove anything germane to this discussion nor did it answer any of the questions I posed to you.

You don’t like 9mm? That’s fine. I have no problem with that. But if you’re saying that 9mm is woefully insufficient as a duty grade caliber, you’re objectively incorrect. Plain and simple.

The MHS didn’t but the circa 2005 “Joint Combat Pistol” program did specify .45 acp. However despite the aspirations of some traditionalists, it was never a serious contender to replace the M9. It was really more of a SOCOM thing. The HK 45 was one of several modern .45 acp pistols, including the .45 version of the PX4 storm developed for the JCP.

Nothing much really came of it other than the study which dragged on into 2007, and possibly Mk24 which was an HK 45c set up for suppressors use. It saw limited use by NSW supplementing 9mm Mk25s. I don’t know of anyone else in SOCOM using them.

2005 is 14 years and at least two military pistol trials ago.

[ccmdfd]

It's like I've stepped into a time machine.

This thread is so much like 199X or 200X internet threads!

cc

[HCM]

I think this is one of those things where some people just won’t believe unless they see the data. The data isn’t publicly available so their options are to take the words of strangers on the internet who claim to have seen the data, or to continue believing whatever they’re already comfortable with. There are numerous people posting who have seen the data. You can choose to believe them when they say that all the major service calibers do practically the same thing or you can choose not to. Too many people are emotionally invested in their preferred caliber.

Some but I think for most it’s a ballistic woobie, i.e. “If I carry a .45 it will keep me safe.”

Besides, everyone knows that it is lanyard loops on pistols, not caliber that wards off evil spirits.

[El Cid]

I think this is one of those things where some people just won’t believe unless they see the data. The data isn’t publicly available so their options are to take the words of strangers on the internet who claim to have seen the data, or to continue believing whatever they’re already comfortable with. There are numerous people posting who have seen the data. You can choose to believe them when they say that all the major service calibers do practically the same thing or you can choose not to. Too many people are emotionally invested in their preferred caliber.

But do we really need to see it? The feds have a multi million dollar budget just to test ammo. They are always looking for the best ammo and have a vested interest since their own personnel will carry whatever they discover as the best. Why would they choose something that isn’t the ideal option? Some days I think it would be easier to teach theoretical physics to a squirrel than get the shooters like these to understand terminal effects with regard to handgun ammo.

And for the shooters who don’t trust the feds because “conspiracy” or other nonsense... look at our SOF units. They can use whatever they want and they actually shoot lots of people. They are carrying 9mm. These threads are like an overweight middle school gym teacher telling an Olympic gold medalist they aren’t exercising correctly.

[Joe in PNG]

And for the shooters who don’t trust the feds because “conspiracy” or other nonsense... look at our SOF units. They can use whatever they want and they actually shoot lots of people. They are carrying 9mm. These threads are like an overweight middle school gym teacher telling an Olympic gold medalist they aren’t exercising correctly.

The gun counter lore is that SOF guys still carry 1911's in By Gawd .45acp. Glock 19s? What Glock 19s?

[Borderland]

What HCM said. The MHS Trials never specified caliber and there was speculation at certain points that the chosen pistol could have gone back to .45Auto or even .40S&W. The article that you linked didn’t specify such a thing either. The article that you linked was really just an HK45 ad. It’s a great pistol, but it doesn’t really prove or disprove anything germane to this discussion nor did it answer any of the questions I posed to you.

You don’t like 9mm? That’s fine. I have no problem with that. But if you’re saying that 9mm is woefully insufficient as a duty grade caliber, you’re objectively incorrect. Plain and simple.

9mm's fine. I have one and reload 9mm. If I didn't like it I wouldn't spend that much time with it. Stop with the drama queen shit.

The HK45 came out of the JCP. Specs can be found here.

https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/socom-born-combat-pistols/

That was back in 2004 when the military thought they could buy 600,000 pistols and get what they actually wanted, 45 ACP. If they didn't want it they would have never wrote the spec.:)

Military purchased the cheapest pistol they could. That was a 9mm. Ammo costs matter. Same reason they won't move away from 5.56. Not the best but cheap.

[HCM]

The gun counter lore is that SOF guys still carry 1911's in By Gawd .45acp. Glock 19s? What Glock 19s?

Not just Glock 19s, Glock 19s with red dots.....

[WobblyPossum]

The HK45 came out of the JCP. Specs can be found here.

https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/socom-born-combat-pistols/

That was back in 2004 when the military thought they could buy 600,000 pistols and get what they actually wanted, 45 ACP. If they didn't want it they would have never wrote the spec.:)

Military purchased the cheapest pistol they could. That was a 9mm. Ammo costs matter. Same reason they won't move away from 5.56. Not the best but cheap.

Who is telling you this nonsense?

[Joe in PNG]

Not just Glock 19s, Glock 19s with red dots.....

I can't hear you! LALALALA 1911 LALALALA FILIPINO INSURRECTION! LALALALA THEY ALL FALL TO HARDBALL! LALALALA!!!

[El Cid]

The HK45 came out of the JCP. Specs can be found here.

https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/socom-born-combat-pistols/

That was back in 2004 when the military thought they could buy 600,000 pistols and get what they actually wanted, 45 ACP. If they didn't want it they would have never wrote the spec.:)
.

So what? The military is so resistant to change its almost a diagnosable disease. You’re talking about “big Army.” Stuck in tradition “because we’ve always done it that way.” They are not the people I’d go to for advice on anything handgun related. They still don’t do preventative maintenance on small arms. They just shoot them until something breaks. Then replace the broken part with a used part off another weapon that might be at the end of it’s service life. The people in DoD who actually use handguns for killing are in the special operations community. And they carry 9mm.

Your use of the JCP was to justify 45 caliber pistols is like saying the military should not replace their Jet Rangers (OH-58) because traffic reporters use them successfully every morning.

[El Cid]

Who is telling you this nonsense?

He read it on the Internet. Or in a gun magazine. Or the guy behind the gun store counter told him. Lol!

[Borderland]

The people in DoD who actually use handguns for killing are in the special operations community. And they carry 9mm.

OK, if you say so. :rolleyes:

[El Cid]

OK, if you say so. :rolleyes:

Lol! Oh I’m not the only one. But please - enlighten us with your knowledge of something different.

You can sit in your echo chamber and pretend all you want. You're stuck inside a fantasy.

[GlorifiedMailman]

OK, if you say so. :rolleyes:

Are you just willfully ignorant and don't care what reality actually is?

[JSGlock34]

The .45ACP holdout in the military is USMC Force Reconnaissance, which is continuing to use the M45A1. And a few USMC SRTs.

Meanwhile, their MARSOC brethren elected to turn in their M45A1s...and are using Glock 19s.

[Borderland]

He read it on the Internet. Or in a gun magazine. Or the guy behind the gun store counter told him. Lol!

So, where do you get your information? Obviously none of these places. That only leaves coworkers (military), newspapers, relatives, acquaintances or the local tavern. Did I miss any?

Which one would that be?

[El Cid]

So, where do you get your information? Obviously none of these places. That only leaves coworkers (military), newspapers, relatives, acquaintances or the local tavern.

Which one would that be?

From serving in the military and LE for well over 20 years. So yes, friends and coworkers as well as seeing it myself in some cases. I’ve also trained with several folks who have those backgrounds. Take a class with McNamara, Pannone, Defoor, etc and ask them what their former units carry.

You still haven’t told us where you get your information. When you get presented facts that don’t agree with your statements you just say things like “if you say so.” Prove us all wrong. I beg you.

[Borderland]

The .45ACP holdout in the military is USMC Force Reconnaissance, which is continuing to use the M45A1. And a few USMC SRTs.

Meanwhile, their MARSOC brethren elected to turn in their M45A1s...and are using Glock 19s.

Well no shit. It's a Colt 1911. I would take a Glock 19 any day because it runs.

[runcible]

ref: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37612-The-Border-Patrol-Hits-a-Breaking-Point-Politico-Article&p=906847&viewfull=1#post906847 :p


So, where do you get your information? Obviously none of these places. That only leaves coworkers (military), newspapers, relatives, acquaintances or the local tavern. Did I miss any?


It seems curious that you so ardently disagree with those that have direct contact with the subject matter. Is there any level of expertise or supporting information that could be provided, that might change your mind on this?


Sure, if it came from someone who actually worked for the CBP as a GS-9 or higher.

I mean, I'm sure someone could decloak as a GS-9 if that'd help. Would you accept knowledge from someone on the GL payscale as a substitute, perchance? :cool:

[spinmove_]

Do you mean stuff like this?


https://youtu.be/73Eg6lEGDIc

We’re actually alluding to something more along the lines of this from our own DocGKR.

https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/

[HCM]

The .45ACP holdout in the military is USMC Force Reconnaissance, which is continuing to use the M45A1. And a few USMC SRTs.

Meanwhile, their MARSOC brethren elected to turn in their M45A1s...and are using Glock 19s.

Plus the other USMC units that bought Glock 19Ms before the fatwa was issued in favor of the M18s.

[Baldanders]

We're doing this again?


.32 ACP was enough for John Moses Browning to EDC, so what are y'all compensating for?

Nah nah nah nah nah nah.

[HopetonBrown]

Baldanders can you shoot a 10 second FAST test?

[Joe in PNG]

Nobody's really brought up the Moros and the failure of the .38LC yet!

How can we have a proper caliber debate if nobody brings up the Moros?

[Baldanders]

Baldanders can you shoot a 10 second FAST test?
There's a reason I edited my post.


Have fun fighting.

ETA: sir, I'm pretty sure I'm in the bottom 5% of shooters here.

[Baldanders]

My awesomely scientific milk jug tests prove premium .38 and .45 beat 9mm premium loads.

Case closed.

[Baldanders]

Nobody's really brought up the Moros and the failure of the .38LC yet!

How can we have a proper caliber debate if nobody brings up the Moros?

If I went over and shot Moros now with a Taurus Judge with .410 buckshot, the whoop ass would travel back in time and kill their great-grandaddies extra dead, and we would think .38LC worked.

Dilemmas.

[Le Français]

https://media.giphy.com/media/UvwI1X7XkbXq0/giphy.gif

[Duelist]

Has anybody brought up Hitler or Kevin Bacon yet?

[Guerrero]

Has anybody brought up Hitler or Kevin Bacon yet?

Plenty of bacon over in the Thanksgiving thread

[HCM]

My awesomely scientific milk jug tests prove premium .38 and .45 beat 9mm premium loads.

Case closed.

I’ll see your milk jugs and raise you with wet phone books and blocks of clay just like in 1980s Guns And Ammo magazine.

[Guerrero]

I’ll see your milk jugs and raise you with wet phone books and blocks of clay just like in 1980s Guns And Ammo magazine.

...which is exactly where this thread belongs

[Cypher]

...which is exactly where this thread belongs

I'm glad for threads like this. I sometimes doubt the effectiveness of 9mm, then I come to this thread and I read actual data and I understand that my feelings are lying.

[Baldanders]

Has anybody brought up Hitler or Kevin Bacon yet?

.32 ACP has 100% one-shot stops on Hitlers.

[Guerrero]

.32 ACP has 100% one-shot stops on Hitlers.

Nein: Argentina

[Cypher]

Nein: Argentina


https://youtu.be/tpNy6xqoQa8

[Baldanders]

Nein: Argentina

If I went down to Argentina, and shot CyberHitler with a .44 AutoMag--- a gun so powerful it uses cut-down .308 Winchester brass necked up to ,44 caliber--the temporal warp triple whoop-ass would alter the timeline, resulting in libertarian utopia.

But most of us would be erased from the timeline.

Dilemmas.

[Joe in PNG]

If I went down to Argentina, and shot CyberHitler with a .44 AutoMag--- a gun so powerful it uses cut-down .308 Winchester brass necked up to ,44 caliber--the temporal warp triple whoop-ass would alter the timeline, resulting in libertarian utopia.

But most of us would be erased from the timeline.

Dilemmas.

Maybe a 10mm would have fewer temporal effects?

[Borderland]

From serving in the military and LE for well over 20 years. So yes, friends and coworkers as well as seeing it myself in some cases. I’ve also trained with several folks who have those backgrounds. Take a class with McNamara, Pannone, Defoor, etc and ask them what their former units carry.

You still haven’t told us where you get your information. When you get presented facts that don’t agree with your statements you just say things like “if you say so.” Prove us all wrong. I beg you.

Not trying to prove anything. What facts? The military chose a 9mm based on a very low bid.

Former Units? What does that mean? What they were issued? I think we all know what that was. 9mm has been a standard in the military since 85. All one really has to do if they want to know what the military trains with is look at the brass salvage auctions from the bases that do the training like JBLM. It's all been 9mm for a very long time. No need to ask an ex operator. Pretty hard to run a 45 when all they issue is 9mm ammo.

LE just recently switched from 40 to 9mm. Lots of surplus 40's out there from LE agencies. I've seen 55 gal drums full of 40 brass from a LE training facility when I worked for a gov't agency. 40 to 9 was another budget driven decision.

[HCM]

Not trying to prove anything. What facts? The military chose a 9mm based on a very low bid.

Former Units? What does that mean? What they were issued? I think we all know what that was. 9mm has been a standard in the military since 85. All one really has to do if they want to know what the military trains with is look at the brass salvage auctions from the bases that do the training like JBLM. It's all been 9mm for a very long time. No need to ask an ex operator. Pretty hard to run a 45 when all they issue is 9mm ammo.

LE just recently switched from 40 to 9mm. Lots of surplus 40's out there from LE agencies. I've seen 55 gal drums full of 40 brass from a LE training facility when I worked for a gov't agency. 40 to 9 was another budget driven decision.

40 to 9 is not a budget driven decision. The SIG M17/18 was chosen based on a low bid. 9mm has been the stands service round since 1986. I notice you like twisting half truths to lend credence to your .false statements

As noted up thread PF is supposed to be source of accurate information - you know, that whole “students and teachers of the pistol” thing ?

I don’t know whether you are trolling (which I suspect) or really that obtuse but either way you are posting information here as fact which has no basis in reality and which you are apparently just pulling out of your ass. You are shitting in the information stream and a detriment to the signal to noise ratio here.

[jetfire]

The 12 step P-F sidearm selection cycle:

Step 1 - Buy/Own a pistol
Step 2 - Take it to the range, shoot it until you trust it and feel confident; CHL permit+McHolster.
Step 3 - blahblahblahblahblahblah
Step 4 - Get a Glock 19/Beretta 92 and take a class; realize shot timer phone apps are garbage; McHolsters suck
Step 5 - Realize you shoot a Beretta 92/Glock/(Other Gun) better during the class
Step 6 - Buy six flavors of Beretta/Glock/(Other Gun) and holsters
Step 7 - 1911...oooo shiny
Step 8 - Take another class; how did I end up with so many holsters; dot torture
Step 9 - Distracted diversion to HK/CZ/Sig/M&P/[Other Gun]; sell off guns and holsters to buy more guns and holsters
Step 10 - REVOLVERS, BY GOD!
Step 11 - Carry Optics/Red Dots/All the Widgets and Gizmos
Step 12 - Return to Step 1.

This is Step 3 thinking. Spend as little time on Step 3 as possible. Enjoy all the other steps.

Unsurprisingly I am stopped happily at Step 10

[Unobtanium]

I’ve been pouring over this subject for years now (particularly DocGKR’s work), but keep coming back to the same conundrum at one point or another. It’s obvious that 9mm has taken the world by storm once more in LE, military, and self-defense use. However, looking back over the past several decades, the pendulum seems to swing back and forth between larger/heavier calibers like the .40, .45, and 10mm (for a brief time), and 9mm. There was a time when 9mm was thought to be king, but then it was determined not to be enough and a larger caliber was needed.

Who’s to say that there won’t be another tragic event of brave LEOs getting killed while using 9mm pistols that fail to end the threat, and precipitate a move back to larger calibers like .40 and .45 (or some new caliber entirely)? That’s not to say that I think such a tragedy would actually be the fault of 9mm; more than likely it would be the fault of something else entirely or the inadequacies of service pistol calibers in general. But that wouldn’t necessarily stop a large exodus from 9mm to a larger caliber, as has happened before.

As well, to this day it seems like larger calibers such as .40 are preferred by LE for dispatching injured animals, such as deer. If 9mm is less effective at putting down injured deer, how can it be as effective as the larger calibers to take down a 200+ pound determined human attacker?

This is coming from someone who has been carrying a 9mm Glock 19 for years and shoots in competition, but every once in a while I have my doubts about 9mm having negligible differences in effectiveness compared to .40 or .45.

I realize that the 9mm loads of today are scores more effective than 9mm loads of yesteryear, but it seems that only in the past decade has 9mm started to have loads determined to be excellent. Is it really, truly proven to be close enough in incapacitation potential to .40 or .45 to make no difference in regards to ending a posed threat quickly and effectively?

I don’t mean to start a caliber debate or focus on the wrong things, but it’s something that’s been gnawing at me for a while. It’s really the main reason I haven’t sold off my .45’s. Meanwhile I will continue my 9mm shooting schedule as normal, I will not let this compromise my effectiveness.

Thanks to all who help a OCD soul.

I am OCD to the max, so I can relate...I also did not read all 15 pages...

The 9mm has sufficient energy with current projectile design to fully penetrate to and or through the CNS and large blood bearing organs of an extremely high percentage of the population even from suboptimal angles.

This is it. This is all you need to know and accept. That. That simple thing.

Now you need to go out and train. Because now you have to be able to apply this fact to a hostile situation rapidly a d reliably.

Also keep in mind that if we had a pie chart of tissue destruction, the .30-06 would be so far removed from the 9.., .357, .40,. 45, etc. that the pie chart would look stupid and be difficult to present. Now...we all know plenty of deer that have taken a full house expanding .30 rifle round through both lungs and the heart, and kept on trucking for quite a bit further than Tueller would have ever been okay with. So keep that in mind, and stop stressing and just keep on training to make good hits with the puny option you have available (handgun), because your organic performance will far overshadow its mechanical differences between calibers regarding the outcome.

[Hambo]

Not trying to prove anything.

For someone with nothing to prove, you're doing an excellent job of proving your own ignorance on a number of topics.

[spinmove_]

Unsurprisingly I am stopped happily at Step 10

Up until you bust out that APX RDO with RMR again?

[spinmove_]

For someone with nothing to prove, you're doing an excellent job of proving your own ignorance on a number of topics.

That’s putting it mildly. I’m essentially done with this thread and it’s officially reached pants-on-head retarded levels of WTF.

[GlorifiedMailman]

That’s putting it mildly. I’m essentially done with this thread and it’s officially reached pants-on-head retarded levels of WTF.

There were several people who contributed valuable information, knowledge, and perspective in this thread, and for that I am grateful...

...But now it's gone awry.

[41magfan]

If we’re talking about personal defense against humans (not critters), I think the 9mm is adequate in most cases and here’s my reasoning .... which isn't necessarily scientific.

I’ve found that you can pigeonhole most people’s response to the defensive use of a firearm (good guys & bad guys alike) into three general categories;

Folks in Group #1 will terminate their participation in the conflict when the mere presence of a gun manifests itself. This is far and away the most frequent scenario when it comes to personal conflict. This happens all the time and few people (outside of the players involved) are ever aware it took place. No shots are fired so pretty much ANY gun/cartridge will do.

Folks in Group #2 pretty much lose all interest in continuing the fight when either, (a) ANY shots are fired or; (b) they suffer ANY meaningful hit in pretty much ANY part of their body. Again, pretty much ANY gun/cartridge will do.

Folks in Group #3 however, aren’t the least bit impressed by the presence of a gun or even being shot - they must be STOPPED by either a disruption of their CNS or a loss of blood pressure.

For most people in most circumstances, that is best accomplished with a gun/cartridge combination that allows the user to achieve multiple hits while making some reasonable allowance for multiple misses.

I happen to think that's a good role for a properly loaded hi-cap 9mm …. but that’s just my biased opinion.

[Galbraith]

There were several people who contributed valuable information, knowledge, and perspective in this thread, and for that I am grateful...

...But now it's gone awry.

Unfortunately that's what happens with any discussion on caliber choice. Ultimately, a firearm is really a customized tool to fit your particular attributes and skill sets which may follow the mainstream and may not. "Know thyself" is just as applicable to firearms as it is to boxing/martial arts. Overtime you learn how your particular body and mind reacts to extreme stress, and how that effects your ability to perform complex tasks, weapon manipulation, marksmanship, and operating/moving tactically. Everyone reacts differently and exhibits different weaknesses under those stresses, and you should know yours. Sometimes you can at least get a general idea of how your body and mind works if you have been in competitive sports.

As long as you train hard in timed, meaningful courses of fire and train often.......you can pick what ever caliber you want and can expect the platform and caliber to work well for you. At this point in time, it is simpler and easier all the way around to go with 9mm. It will receive first priority in terms of invention, logistics, and product support. In my mind it is also the better choice when it comes to civilian concealed carry which usually involve a compact, subcompact, or micro pistol. I like the heavier calibers, but .40 and .45 suffer more handicaps in smaller pistols due to capacity, durability, and weapon handling.

[Robinson]

Well no shit. It's a Colt 1911. I would take a Glock 19 any day because it runs.

Brilliantly reasoned and stated.

[Robinson]

The gun counter lore is that SOF guys still carry 1911's in By Gawd .45acp. Glock 19s? What Glock 19s?

If I've gone back to carrying a 45 1911 then so should they, dammit. Wait, you mean they don't give a rat's ass what I carry? Go figure... :)

[Greg]

Its important to remember a .45 acp can go right through an engine block. Just throwing one with you hand at a car will blow the door right off. :cool:

MOAR Knockdown Powers for the wins YO :cool:

[RevolverRob]

.38 Special from a 2.5" Colt Diamondback worked well enough for Lt. Frank Bullitt - it's good 'nuff for me. :eek: :p

[RJ]

That’s putting it mildly. I’m essentially done with this thread and it’s officially reached pants-on-head retarded levels of WTF.

In that case, I feel like I can repost my favorite piece of cinematic caliber advice...from Sgt Tackleberry.

https://youtu.be/WFUAl0Nly7Y

[RevolverRob]

Unsurprisingly I am stopped happily at Step 10

Tell that to your Beretta fetish...

F'ing Gun Hipster.

[Baldanders]

Tell that to your Beretta fetish...

F'ing Gun Hipster.

Yeah, I read that post and thought "post by Steph, but it says 'Jetfire? ' "

[jetfire]

Up until you bust out that APX RDO with RMR again?

I mean I still have two APXs with red dots on them, and if my work required me to carry a striker fired gun I'd just grab one of those, yeah.

I'm fortunate that I'm in a place where I can carry what I want most of the time. Sometimes I get told what to carry, and sometimes I get offered money to test stuff, and when that happens I carry whatever that is. But when I'm not getting paid or on the job, an LCR finds its way into my holster 99% of the time.

[Baldanders]

I mean I still have two APXs with red dots on them, and if my work required me to carry a striker fired gun I'd just grab one of those, yeah.

I'm fortunate that I'm in a place where I can carry what I want most of the time. Sometimes I get told what to carry, and sometimes I get offered money to test stuff, and when that happens I carry whatever that is. But when I'm not getting paid or on the job, an LCR finds its way into my holster 99% of the time.

Even as a S&W fetishist, I can't fault your decision.

But I had no idea you were "one of us." ☺

[LittleLebowski]

Tech forum. Not romper room.

[Cypher]

Tech forum. Not romper room.

Somebody already said it but I think it would be a really good idea to take some of the best posts from this thread and make them their own sticky.

[spinmove_]

I mean I still have two APXs with red dots on them, and if my work required me to carry a striker fired gun I'd just grab one of those, yeah.

I'm fortunate that I'm in a place where I can carry what I want most of the time. Sometimes I get told what to carry, and sometimes I get offered money to test stuff, and when that happens I carry whatever that is. But when I'm not getting paid or on the job, an LCR finds its way into my holster 99% of the time.

Apparently LOK grips is thinking about diving into the revolver grip market. I told them it would be super neato if they made a proper boot grip for an LCR and they seemed receptive. I’m now tempted to get an LCR just for this eventuality.

[GlorifiedMailman]

So then what reason is there (besides the "legacy" reasons of "department/agency still gives free .40/.45 ammo supply") to pick .40 or .45?

At this point it seems like there is no logical reason to choose any caliber other than 9mm if you're not in a communist state.

[revchuck38]

So then what reason is there (besides the "legacy" reasons of "department/agency still gives free .40/.45 ammo supply") to pick .40 or .45?

At this point it seems like there is no logical reason to choose any caliber other than 9mm if you're not in a communist state.

That assumes that only logic guides our choices. :)

If you favor the 1911 platform, .45 ACP is a better choice because 1911s are more reliable in the caliber they were designed around.

Until about four years ago, I preferred revolvers, and I still love 'em. Revolvers can be made to work with 9x19, but IMHO it's pretty Rube Goldbergian.

If you need something to defend against larger four-legged predators as well as humans, a magnum revolver or .45 Super might work better.

I'm sure there are other reasons to use something other than 9x19, I just can't think of any right now.

[Totem Polar]

Good Lord, I step over into the Malkoff and Rimfire threads for a day, and the internet goes pear shaped.

My favorite piece of wound ballistic/stopping power wisdom *ever* came from Sean M;

"Bullets do weird shit in people. People do weird shit when hit by bullets." Roughly.

Choosing something from GKR’s list might mitigate a small portion of the weirdness.

JMO, OMMV, etc.

[BehindBlueI's]

So then what reason is there (besides the "legacy" reasons of "department/agency still gives free .40/.45 ammo supply") to pick .40 or .45?

At this point it seems like there is no logical reason to choose any caliber other than 9mm if you're not in a communist state.

With the assumption we aren't talking about niche use type things like bear country carry or making a certain power factor for certain competitive events, and eliminating legacy reasons then I think being married to a certain platform is the main reason. Someone coming in fresh with no legacy to build on is almost certainly best served by the 9mm.

I've not sold any of my .40 S&W or .45 Auto Sig pistols. I have a lot of, as you put it, legacy reasons. I have a metric shit ton of ammunition and components for them, have significant supporting equipment (holsters,magazines, spare recoil springs, etc.) for guns like the P220 and P245 for which .45 Auto is the only option. I do have 9mm copies of my .40 S&W guns (P226 and P229), along with a 9mm slide conversion for the P226. I don't see any compelling reason to get rid of any of them and all the supporting equipment I've built up over the years.

[pangloss]

I'm late to this thread and have not read all of it, but the concept of thresholds is important. Years ago I was discussing some data at work, and I asked a colleague if he though a 2x difference was meaningful. He replied, "it depends on how close you are to the threshold." If I drop a 1 lb magazine on a house fly, the force will kill the fly. If I drop a three pound phone book on a housefly, that'll kill it too. The 3x increase in the mass of the object didn't affect the outcome with respect to the fly. Once you've passed the threshold, you don't gain anything by going farther past.

Biology is full of thresholds. Death from blood loss is a great example. Once a person dies from blood loss, they don't die more if they continue to bleed (to whatever extent that could occur without cardiac output). Oxygen tension in the brain and brain function is probably another relevant example of a threshold relationship. Drop too low and your brain stops. The end.

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using Tapatalk

[jetfire]

Apparently LOK grips is thinking about diving into the revolver grip market. I told them it would be super neato if they made a proper boot grip for an LCR and they seemed receptive. I’m now tempted to get an LCR just for this eventuality.

I also have some napkin drawings for a revolver grip product I plan on working on in 2020 when I get back to the world

[tlong17]

Small matter of semantics most likely but, I see many state they chose 124 grain HST because it was on “the list” from Doc. However, 124 grain HST standard pressure isn’t on the list. 147 HST is the only standard pressure on the 9mm list. Am I missing something?

[jbourneidentity]

Late to the dance, but OP, I think your points are well made. I carry a G19, 92FS or P228 most days with 9mm HST +P, but I still worry about it sometimes, too. I was 20 in 1990 when "The Big Switch" to .40 happened, and all that FBI Miami fallout is always in my mind.

I do believe this: I think the 9mm is held to a higher performance standard than any other duty round precisely because of Miami. Its shadows linger to this day. For example, we're all aware of shootings with the .40 and .45 which were slow to incapacitate even with quality shot placement and multiple rounds fired (think Tim Grammins). The .40 and .45 cartridges are rarely, if ever, called into question or doubted after such shootings. Had those same gunfights involved the 9mm, there would've been major inquiries from various sources. Frankly, the .38 LSWCHP +P didn't perform that well in Miami either, but it was the 9mm that hit Platt in the arm and chest and that was all that mattered. I know that 9mm HST will do the job, but the Ghosts of Miami Past continue to haunt me just a bit, and probably for no good reason.

However, I've said it to my friends, and I'm calling it now, one or two future high profile gunfights with the 9mm which fail to immediately incapacitate felons will lead to questions and maybe even backtracking. The .40 is not dead. Sometimes, history does repeat itself. Don't be surprised if in 5 years that the .40 will again be in American police holsters.

[DocGKR]

Both standard pressure 124 HST and Gold Dot work adequately, however the 124 +P versions are a bit better. In 147, the standard pressure is great and there is no advantage going to +P.

[STI]

However, I've said it to my friends, and I'm calling it now, one or two future high profile gunfights with the 9mm which fail to immediately incapacitate felons will lead to questions and maybe even backtracking. The .40 is not dead. Sometimes, history does repeat itself. Don't be surprised if in 5 years that the .40 will again be in American police holsters.

Here’s how history will repeat itself in your hypothetical - the LE carrying 9, that make these shots that you’re going to use to justify 40 with - they’ll be average to worse marksmen and the shot placement will be bad, too late to stop the target, or both.

And a sober, uninvested party doing an AAR would assign responsibility to the failure with the nut behind the trigger and not the ammunition or handgun. That’s the history that repeats, historically.

If you wanna carry forty, get on with your dirty self, you don’t need any pats on the back around here (and it might be hard to find them anyway)

[tlong17]

Both standard pressure 124 HST and Gold Dot work adequately, however the 124 +P versions are a bit better. In 147, the standard pressure is great and there is no advantage going to +P.

Any significant difference with a 3" barrel? My feeling is that there may be, but that it is marginal at best.

[TGS]

However, I've said it to my friends, and I'm calling it now, one or two future high profile gunfights with the 9mm which fail to immediately incapacitate felons will lead to questions and maybe even backtracking. The .40 is not dead. Sometimes, history does repeat itself. Don't be surprised if in 5 years that the .40 will again be in American police holsters.

I don't think so, and because of one reason:

Compared to the 70s and 80s chasing "magic bullets" and their incapacitation theories without supporting evidence, we have a much better understanding of terminal ballistics these days. Due to this, we also have better expectation management.

There will be more failures to stop. It's not like we're waiting for another event to happen.....we know it will happen, it's already happened, has happened this year, and will continue to happen. The difference is that we know what to expect, and what not to expect, from handgun bullets.

[Lost River]

So then what reason is there (besides the "legacy" reasons of "department/agency still gives free .40/.45 ammo supply") to pick .40 or .45?

At this point it seems like there is no logical reason to choose any caliber other than 9mm if you're not in a communist state.


If my only concern was people, I would rock a 9mm and never look back.

That said, people are not my only concern. They are not the only concern of a great many Law Officers throughout the country once you get away from the urban areas.



Typical medium to small animals, a 9mm works fine, and that includes thin skinned critters like cats (I am talking about mountain lions and bobcats not domestic kitties) and coyotes.

When you get into larger animals is where things get different.

This is where people have entrenched thinking. When they think "large animal defense" they automatically think "Bears". The fact is that the odds of going up against a bear are rather low as a lawman, or as a citizen.

You are FAR more likely to be injured or killed by a horse or cow than a bear by a substantial margin. I have put down more injured cattle than I can recall.

There are not many places in this country that do not have cattle and horses.

Cattle trucks overturn on the interstate/highway.
Trucks hauling both cattle and horse trailers are involved in vehicle accidents every single day on county roads.
Animals get frightened during storms and run through barbed wire fences, injuring themselves.
They constantly wander onto roadways, getting struck by vehicles, becoming injured and still mobile.
Huge parts of the west have land that is legally called "Open Range" where livestock have the right of way.
Sometimes they just get sick,
etc, etc.

The only time I ever actually used my straight stick on a live object was not on a person. It was on an injured cow from an overturned cattle truck. That cow had flipped one guy off his 4 wheeler, and had two people pretty much corralled in the back of their pickup bed, and had dented the side of the truck a couple times as the guys were waving the cow away from the interstate. I was running away from and smacking that mad SOB hard as I could (imagine a rodeo clown keeping in tight behind the shoulder of a bull trying to gore him and you get the picture). My ASP looked like a banana.

The supervisor (who was not there) had initially refused to let me shoot the animals, even though we had an interstate with 2 lane traffic (each direction) running full speed .

Eventually a crash happened with one of the cows that I could not prevent due to this order. I remember watching it like it happened in slow motion and there was not a thing I could do to prevent it. Everyone was doing their best to round up the few cattle that were not aggressive, and one slipped through and trotted up onto the hardball.

The man in the passenger car died as I spoke to him. An autopsy later revealed a detached aorta. After that I went to putting down the couple of remaining cattle that were loose with my .45. That caused some huge problems and internal fighting as I had chain of command both for and against my decision to disobey orders.. anyways..

My personal experience is that for large animals, a large heavy bullet gives you better penetration against heavy bone and tissue. Especially when your shots may be at a less than ideal angle.

When your average to large Angus bull weighs in at about 1 ton and a heifer at 1/2 that roughly, and you need to put one down DRT, I would rather have a larger caliber handgun than a smaller one.


You can kill the stupid things with a .22 to the ear canal, but there is a big difference between an animal in a loading chute, and a hell bent one on the loose in a town full of people who don't know any better than to get the hell away from it.

Just my experience.

[Lost River]

If your only concern is people, grab some 124 grain Gold Dot +P (or equivalent) load up and rock on.
As others have suggested.

Time spent worrying about "should I be carrying a .40/.45" etc, or this round or that would be much better spent actually determining where you weak spots are in your skill sets, and improving those.

Or do some pushups.

Or both.

[jbourneidentity]

Here’s how history will repeat itself in your hypothetical - the LE carrying 9, that make these shots that you’re going to use to justify 40 with - they’ll be average to worse marksmen and the shot placement will be bad, too late to stop the target, or both.

And a sober, uninvested party doing an AAR would assign responsibility to the failure with the nut behind the trigger and not the ammunition or handgun. That’s the history that repeats, historically.

If you wanna carry forty, get on with your dirty self, you don’t need any pats on the back around here (and it might be hard to find them anyway)


Paragraph 1, agree.

Paragraph 2, disagree somewhat. FBI Miami was and is the continued case study. The ammo and caliber almost always gets the blame first and has for decades. This is why the caliber wars never die. The only way the "nut behind the trigger" is assigned responsibility is if his actions were so egregious that there was no way to put his actions on the back-burner behind ammo performance. Newhall was and is the continued case study.

Paragraph 3, I have no desire to carry a .40. I did for 20 years every night. I'm good, thanks. As for pats on the back, I'm not looking for them from you or anyone else on this forum. I'm simply expressing my viewpoint, which is the point of forums, but if I turn out to be right, the first pat can come from you. If I'm wrong, the first "I was wrong" will come from me.

Aside from that, I'm just trying to have a friendly conversation with like-minded individuals.

[Alpha Sierra]

I don’t mean to start a caliber debate or focus on the wrong things

You're focusing on the wrong things

[BehindBlueI's]

Paragraph 1, agree.

Paragraph 2, disagree somewhat. FBI Miami was and is the continued case study. The ammo and caliber almost always gets the blame first and has for decades.

I can't say I agree with that. I distinctly remember multiple key points learned from Miami passed on to me as a rookie 20 years later. Don't put your only duty gun under your leg (note the gun-under-the-leg for a bad guy at your window was still taught, but you used your BUG), availability of long guns, confronting armored suspects and alternate aiming points, using cover (even if a curb or parking lot hump is all you can get), wounded officer evac drills, etc. that all stemmed from dissection of Miami.

[DocGKR]

BBI is correct.

[DocGKR]

"My personal experience is that for large animals, a large heavy bullet gives you better penetration against heavy bone and tissue. Especially when your shots may be at a less than ideal angle. When your average to large Angus bull weighs in at about 1 ton and a heifer at 1/2 that roughly, and you need to put one down DRT, I would rather have a larger caliber handgun than a smaller one."

Yup and a good deep penetrating shotgun slug works even better....

[revchuck38]

BBI is correct.

As usual. (Don't be gettin' the big head now, BBI. :))

[Lost River]

Yep,

I would rather have an N-Frame in my hands than a Glock at times, but life is what it is..

https://i.imgur.com/Ype8zPR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SX83JE3.jpg


For the record, I was only counting coup, no Bison were harmed in the making of these pics.

Nor were any speed goats, though Antelope are much harder to put the sneak on up to handgunning range.

My knees and elbows were in fact harmed in the making of this shot..


https://i.imgur.com/5NJJVwM.jpg

[Cypher]

Screw it

https://i.postimg.cc/mkvHv2d7/FB_IMG_1524873435145.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Go big or go home

[revchuck38]

Cypher - St. Barbara would be proud. :)

[Lost River]

Screw it

https://i.postimg.cc/mkvHv2d7/FB_IMG_1524873435145.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Go big or go home


HA! Awesome!

[Lost River]

I may know a fellow Idahoan and Brother .44 Associate who thinks the N Frame can be a good thing at times!

https://i.imgur.com/6OT6nbv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/j6Z0ZJy.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bki1cFx.jpg

But that may be for another thread, another time.


Back to our regularly scheduled DERP.

[Velo Dog]

My personal experience is that for large animals, a large heavy bullet gives you better penetration against heavy bone and tissue. Especially when your shots may be at a less than ideal angle.

I tend to agree with that statement, however 9mm can be surprisingly penetrative with certain bullets.

Inches of penetration into FBI standard 10% ballistics gelatin after 4 layers of denim https://www.lehighdefense.com/

44 Remington Magnum 220gr Xtreme Penetrator @ 1,200 FPS...32.0 inches
45 Colt 250gr 30,000 PSI High Pressure Load @1,100 FPS........32.0 inches
9mm Luger 115gr @ 1,150 FPS............................................30+ inches
45 Colt 250gr @ 850 FPS............................................... ....28.0 inches
44 Special 220gr @750 FPS............................................... .27.5 inches
45 ACP +P 200gr @950 FPS............................................... .27.0 inches
357 Mag 140gr @ 1,250 FPS from 4" barrel............................27.0 inches
357 SIG 115gr @ 1,325 FPS............................................... 27.0 inches
10mm Auto 140gr @ 1,200 FPS...........................................26.0 inches
40 S&W 140gr @ 1,050 FPS............................................... .21.5 inches
38 Special +P 140gr @ 850 FPS...........................................17.0 inches
380 Auto 90gr Xtreme Penetrator @ 950 FPS.........................17.0 inches

5pins testing showed little difference between 9mm, .40, and .45 with hard cast bullets.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?36994-Underwood-9mm-amp-40-S-amp-W-Hard-Cast-in-Clear-Ballistics-Gel
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37222-Underwood-45-ACP-and-45-Super-Hard-Cast-in-Clear-Ballistics-Gel

Finally, back in 1992 a Florida police officer used a 9mm pistol to stop a rampaging circus elephant.
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/02/03/us/circus-elephant-is-killed-after-it-goes-on-rampage.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THJrEKPecFM

[BehindBlueI's]

I tend to agree with that statement, however 9mm can be surprisingly penetrative with certain bullets.

Inches of penetration into FBI standard 10% ballistics gelatin after 4 layers of denim https://www.lehighdefense.com/


I think the "heavy bone" part was more the issue and the 4LD isn't going to expose those differences. Probably how resistant to skull deflection as well, depending on the critter. I've seen multiple instances of duty cartridges riding a pit bull's skull, for example. Bears and the like are well outside my area of expertise, but I would suppose it's similar.

[Velo Dog]

I think the "heavy bone" part was more the issue and the 4LD isn't going to expose those differences.

Correct. DocGKR has said something like "Bullets that do well against bone generally fare well against automobile windshield intermediate barrier."

9mm+P 124gr(1180fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Through Auto Glass: 12.7”/.58”

9mm 147gr(995)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Through Auto Glass: 12.6”/.55”

.357sig 125gr(1350fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Through Auto Glass: 12.8”/.62”

.40S&W 180gr(1070fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Through Auto Glass: 12.4”/.63”

.45acp 230gr(905fps)BONDED: (Penetration/Expansion)
Through Auto Glass: 12.5”/.66”

With the proper bullet construction the 9mm often compares favorably with other duty cartridges in penetration. If more penetration is needed then a large hunting revolver or long gun may be required.

[Totem Polar]

The man in the passenger car died as I spoke to him. An autopsy later revealed a detached aorta. After that I went to putting down the couple of remaining cattle that were loose with my .45. That caused some huge problems and internal fighting as I had chain of command both for and against my decision to disobey orders.. anyways..

That is a hell of a thing.




Time spent worrying about "should I be carrying a .40/.45" etc, or this round or that would be much better spent actually determining where you weak spots are in your skill sets, and improving those.

Or do some pushups.

Or both.

FWIW, the only thing I was able to do just for myself today was in/out for one dot torture with a G45 (ex-dentist providence; the other one) and pushups.

May not be much these days, but it’s something.
:)

[Lost River]

That is a hell of a thing.




It is not the ones we save. It is days like that, having your hands tied by shitty bosses who's number #1 concern is their own career, and not the welfare of the public, and feeling helpless to do anything about it when you see the catastrophe about to happen, then happen, and know it was all preventable.

[JRB]

...

....However, I've said it to my friends, and I'm calling it now, one or two future high profile gunfights with the 9mm which fail to immediately incapacitate felons will lead to questions and maybe even backtracking. The .40 is not dead. Sometimes, history does repeat itself. Don't be surprised if in 5 years that the .40 will again be in American police holsters.

I think you're missing a fundamental change in LE equipment - almost every possible 'high profile' situation will have shotguns or rifles involved now, so those sorts of problems won't be solved with handguns alone anymore.

[JRB]

It is not the ones we save. It is days like that, having your hands tied by shitty bosses who's number #1 concern is their own career, and not the welfare of the public, and feeling helpless to do anything about it when you see the catastrophe about to happen, then happen, and know it was all preventable.

Sir, as always you bring a hell of a lot to any discussion, including some outstanding photos.

Thank you for taking the time to share your experience and impressions in threads like this. We're all better off for it.

[Galbraith]

I may know a fellow Idahoan and Brother .44 Associate who thinks the N Frame can be a good thing at times!

https://i.imgur.com/6OT6nbv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/j6Z0ZJy.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bki1cFx.jpg

But that may be for another thread, another time.


Back to our regularly scheduled DERP.

What's the best place to target on those bear targets with a handgun?

[Lost River]

Right on his nose.

[GJM]

Whatever the difference is between 9mm and another cartridge, I know there is a lot greater difference between armed and unarmed, and competent and incompetent in skill of arms.

LR, great Hackathorn pictures!

[Lost River]

Ken is a stud.

I truly enjoy hanging out with him and our little crew, though I don't take a lot of pics (I need to get better about that). He is a virtual walking encyclopedia of knowledge, and his bride is an awesome cook (and a truly sweet lady). Somebody always has something fun or interesting for "adult show and tell", and there are usually stories from BTDT guys, so it is a grand time. This last time I was about to have back surgery, so I was mostly just hanging out, socializing with questionable characters, which as I get older, I find to be the best part of these little gatherings.

Ken is a class act. I know I have said it before here, but my reasons for thinking so highly of him, have very little to do with shooting. He treats people of all stripes like he is greeting an old friend, as long as they conduct themselves in a honorable manner. He could care less if you are a ditch digger for a mining company, or a Delta. That says a lot about him.

Conduct is best proof of Character.

[GlorifiedMailman]

Yup and a good deep penetrating shotgun slug works even better....

So is it true that against humans, 9mm, .40, and .45 all have roughly similar effectiveness at incapacitating people?

I've seen some say that OIS incident reports compiled over the last couple of decades have shown no difference in effectiveness at incapacitating people between the 3 major service calibers.

[Rick R]

So is it true that against humans, 9mm, .40, and .45 all have roughly similar effectiveness at incapacitating people?

I've seen some say that OIS incident reports compiled over the last couple of decades have shown no difference in effectiveness at incapacitating people between the 3 major service calibers.

1) A medical examiner once told me that he couldn’t definitively tell what handgun caliber caused a particular wound. At the time I was observing autopsies with multiple victims shot with multiple handguns in a single incident. Drug related spat solved when one side divided up a trunk full of handguns and assaulted the competition’s house. In the dozen or so shooting death autopsies I observed over the years I never saw a reason to doubt him.

2) One of the take aways from the wounding study published after the FBI Miami shooting was that handguns usually damage about a pounds worth of tissue.

Personally, I don’t completely trust my 10mm to stop everything every time with one random hit. I know 9mm or .32 or .38 or .40 or whatever reasonable caliber will eventually stop an opponent if you put enough leaks in enough critical infrastructure. That’s why we practice and have a plan.

[M2CattleCo]

There's nothing wrong with .40 and .45, and using it because you like a pistol that shoots one or the other is a valid reason. I don't carry a 1911 because it's a .45, I carry .45 because I think it's the best cartridge for my 1911s even after seriously experimenting with 9mm 1911s multiple times.

But there's probably not much reason to doubt the effectiveness of quality defensive 9mm ammunition compared to the larger calibers at this point.


This.

I always tell people to pick a gun they like and will carry, and get the gun in the caliber it works best with.

[Galbraith]

So is it true that against humans, 9mm, .40, and .45 all have roughly similar effectiveness at incapacitating people?

I've seen some say that OIS incident reports compiled over the last couple of decades have shown no difference in effectiveness at incapacitating people between the 3 major service calibers.

From my observations over the years, you have chaos on top of chaos, with a little chaos on the side. The minute you think you have found a pattern, you run into OISs that completely change you way of thinking.

One thing we can definitively correlate to the success of shootings is shot placement, followed by using a regular service caliber, followed by using a quality modern JHP. These 3 elements seem to be a good working combination which has been confirmed by the credible research done over the last few decades. If you're trying to find a measurable difference in the success rate of OISs as it relates to caliber, you'll be hard pressed to find it. Either you hit an important area of the body with a well constructed bullet, or you don't and it can take a very long time for the bad guy to become incapacitated.

[BehindBlueI's]

So is it true that against humans, 9mm, .40, and .45 all have roughly similar effectiveness at incapacitating people?

Many departments/agencies/units have made the switch one way or another between them. Zero have reported any statistical difference in outcomes. You've controlled for every other variable. It's the same officers (so same level of training, experience, etc.) patrolling the same area in the same way they were before, only the cartridges are different. If one were measurably better than the other we'd have those measurements by this point. We see no trend of higher officer survival rates, etc. with the larger calibers. The switch to 9mm has often been touted as improving range scores, but I've yet to see anyone claiming it's improved the percentage of wins at OIS. This is largely because who wins and loses gunfights isn't predicted by range scores (see various NYPD and others studies) because range scores historically are not measuring the right things, or rather are measuring one sliver of the right things. I'm not saying it's not better to be a better shot. I'm saying that a lot of losses occur for reasons that have nothing to do with shooting. Range scores don't measure aggressiveness, tactics, situational awareness, etc. A range score won't tell you who can see trouble coming earlier, who will see the need to use deadly force first, who will hesitate and who won't, etc. Those things generally matter a lot more than the tiny differences in duty calibers at this point.

Pick one, get good with it, learn all the other stuff that separates winners from losers.

[Trooper224]

To paraphrase the late Pat Rogers, "They all work pretty well, if you can shoot."

I know that doesn't make for a lengthy discussion that will run for over two hundred posts, but that's all you really need to know.

I'm as susceptible as the next guy. I was in the, "it better start with four or at least end with magnum" camp for many years. At heart I'll always be a big bore guy, I like big guns that shoot big bullets. The other day, I had a lot of fun with my S&W 4506, but that was just for fun. I'm old enough and experienced enough to realize that it's really about the software and I willingly carry a 9mm for EDC, on rare occasion even a .380! Shhhhhhh...........

[Nephrology]

To paraphrase the late Pat Rogers, "They all work pretty well, if you can shoot."

I know that doesn't make for a lengthy discussion that will run for over two hundred posts, but that's all you really need to know.

That would be my preference for how these these threads go, actually

[Nephrology]

So is it true that against humans, 9mm, .40, and .45 all have roughly similar effectiveness at incapacitating people?


Yes

[Totem Polar]

To paraphrase the late Pat Rogers, "They all work pretty well, if you can shoot."

I know that doesn't make for a lengthy discussion that will run for over two hundred posts, but that's all you really need to know.

Well then, Italian longsword v Katana? Bowie v traditional tanto?

We gotta have something to go on about.

[Nephrology]

Well then, Italian longsword v Katana? Bowie v traditional tanto?

We gotta have something to go on about.

Ford vs Chevy!

[spinmove_]

Ford vs Chevy!

Coke vs Pepsi!

[Trooper224]

Well then, Italian longsword v Katana? Bowie v traditional tanto?

We gotta have something to go on about.

Lee v. Norris, Snickers v. Milkyway. Let's get to the real life issues.

Longswords are for cake eaters and philistines.

https://a4.pbase.com/o9/64/521964/1/160947667.nw9hG23J.Maximilian002.jpg

[fly out]

At least we can finally put to bed the age-old narwhal tooth vs. chef's knife.

[RJ]

Lee v. Norris, Snickers v. Milkyway. Let's get to the real life issues.

Longswords are for cake eaters and philistines.

https://a4.pbase.com/o9/64/521964/1/160947667.nw9hG23J.Maximilian002.jpg

Remind me not to drop in unannounced.

[Oukaapie]

Well then, Italian longsword v Katana? Bowie v traditional tanto?

Italian longsword, no doubt. Dei Liberi trounces Talhoffer and Samurai alike.

Bowie because Murika, and back cuts.

[Trooper224]

Remind me not to drop in unannounced.

Not enough room in the house for that. In that case, you get stabby stabby.
https://a4.pbase.com/g12/64/521964/3/168796085.N9qtD4pq.jpg

[Spartan1980]

Lee v. Norris, Snickers v. Milkyway. Let's get to the real life issues.

Longswords are for cake eaters and philistines.

https://a4.pbase.com/o9/64/521964/1/160947667.nw9hG23J.Maximilian002.jpg

I bet sharpening that takes some serious technique. Do they do classes?

[Trooper224]

I bet sharpening that takes some serious technique. Do they do classes?

This is my sharpener, plebe.
https://i.imgflip.com/1sc9q1.jpg

[Galbraith]

I bet sharpening that takes some serious technique. Do they do classes?

Depends. Many medieval swords were given only a smooth chisel edge. In a world of iron covered shields and mail, a sharp edge didn't last long and all you have left is to rely on your blade geometry and your technique. You see this in large militaries all over the world that have seen any serious conflict. Not to worry though, a long sword with good blade geometry will still cut through a large bamboo matt or sever a limb with a moderately strong, angled swing.

[Trooper224]

Depends. Many medieval swords were given only a smooth chisel edge. In a world of iron covered shields and mail, a sharp edge didn't last long and all you have left is to rely on your blade geometry and your technique. You see this in large militaries all over the world that have seen any serious conflict. Not to worry though, a long sword with good blade geometry will still cut through a large bamboo matt or sever a limb with a moderately strong, angled swing.

That's a myth and quite frankly, bullshit. Examine any number of surviving antiques, you'll see the ones in good condition have edges that are quite sharp. Equating 18th-19th century equipment standards to the rest of edged weapons history is unproductive.

A sword like that two-hander would have been quite sharp. Every antique I've ever examined, except victorian copies, has had a very keen, knifelike edge. If dressing of the edge was required on a sword like that, it would have been done by stropping on a large, leather covered buffing wheel.

[DocGKR]

I hope you all read post #209 above, then read it again, then share it with your friends....

[Galbraith]

That's a myth and quite frankly, bullshit. Examine any number of surviving antiques, you'll see the ones in good condition have edges that are quite sharp. Equating 18th-19th century equipment standards to the rest of edged weapons history is unproductive.

A sword like that two-hander would have been quite sharp. Every antique I've ever examined, except victorian copies, has had a very keen, knifelike edge. If dressing of the edge was required on a sword like that, it would have been done by stropping on a large, leather covered buffing wheel.

Surviving examples that have changed owners hands for centuries, or museum pieces that have only been restored for preservation purposes? The later will generally have a corroded edge, or an edge that will not even cut a manila rope. I say this because the majority of privately owned relics have been restored, including a professional polish resulting in a sharpened edge. Unless you are a curator or get the special pass, you will never handle a museum piece. Yes, I have personally handled a number of privately owned blades from western Europe and Japan, and I even did apprentice work under Christopher Poor at Arms and Armor in Minnesota in the early 1990s and was fortunately enough to achieve journeyman for building/using a bloomery and creating crucible steel. Christopher Poor did indeed have access to museum pieces, and he spent the better part of almost 4 decades looking through original literature on the subject.

Yes, the time period determines the geometry, heat treat/temper, and edge as a function of the external factors of the battle field.

[Totem Polar]

Italian longsword, no doubt. Dei Liberi trounces Talhoffer and Samurai alike.

Bowie because Murika, and back cuts.

Somebody has their edgework squared away.

[Trooper224]

Surviving examples that have changed owners hands for centuries, or museum pieces that have only been restored for preservation purposes? The later will generally have a corroded edge, or an edge that will not even cut a manila rope. I say this because the majority of privately owned relics have been restored, including a professional polish resulting in a sharpened edge. Unless you are a curator or get the special pass, you will never handle a museum piece. Yes, I have personally handled a number of privately owned blades from western Europe and Japan, and I even did apprentice work under Christopher Poor at Arms and Armor in Minnesota in the early 1990s. Poor did indeed have access to museum pieces, and he spent the better part of almost 4 decades looking through original literature on the subject.

Yes, the time period determines the geometry, heat treat/temper, and edge as a function of the external factors of the battle field.


I''ve made a study of the subject for over forty years. I have relationships with many in the museum community. I've had more antiques pass through my hands than any one else on this forum has seen in pictures. Your comments are based on outmoded and obsolete beliefs. You're swerving outside your lane. Please stop.

[Galbraith]

I''ve made a study of the subject for over forty years. I have relationships with many in the museum community. I've had more antiques pass through my hands than any one else on this forum has seen in pictures. Your comments are based on outmoded and obsolete beliefs. You're swerving outside your lane. Please stop.

Frankly you began this with a dick measuring contest. Maybe you meant no disrespect, but it was taken.

[Trooper224]

Frankly you began this with a dick measuring contest. Maybe you meant no disrespect, but it was taken.



It was meant, so you took it in the correct fashion. There's no dick measuring involved in telling you you're wrong. You're perpetuating misinformation that many of us have spent decades refuting. Again, please stop.

I'm basing my opinion on hours spent in the backroom of museums, here ln the US and Europe, examining original weapons that have never been documented in publication, not from information I gained from working with a mid-tier maker of replica weapons back in the 90s. (When none of us knew much).

[Galbraith]

It was meant, so you took it in the correct fashion. There's no dick measuring involved in telling you you're wrong. You're perpetuating misinformation that many of us have spent decades refuting. Again, please stop.

I'm basing my opinion on hours spent in the backroom of museums, here ln the US and Europe, examining original weapons that have never been documented in publication, not from information I gained from working with a mid-tier maker of replica weapons back in the 90s. (When none of us didn't know much).

I've done my grunt work from iron ore all the way to the crucible 3lb block and made a number of 3' blades until I found that money was much better doing other things in life. Obviously you have limited knowledge of Poor or Ric Furrer just a state away who have worked together on a number of projects and sharing of knowledge. In case you didn't know, Furrer is one of the few smiths today who can forge an accurate recreating of the Ulfberhrt. Both are at the forefront of medieval weapons knowledge and recreation and I keep in touch with them every now and again.

I'll stop and let you have your lime light. Advertise your gear and enjoy your accolades.

[Trooper224]

I've done my grunt work from iron ore all the way to the crucible 3lb block and made a number of 3' blades until I found that money was much better doing other things in life. Obviously you have limited knowledge of Poor or Ric Furrer just a state away who have worked together on a number of projects and sharing of knowledge. In case you didn't know, Furrer is one of the few smiths today who can forge an accurate recreating of the Ulfberhrt. Both are at the forefront of medieval weapons knowledge and recreation and I keep in touch with them every now and again.

I'll stop and let you have your lime light. Advertise your gear and enjoy your accolades.

Yes, I'm familiar with Ric and any other name from the craft you'd like to drop.

Thank you for stopping.

[officerdave]

Many departments/agencies/units have made the switch one way or another between them. Zero have reported any statistical difference in outcomes. You've controlled for every other variable. It's the same officers (so same level of training, experience, etc.) patrolling the same area in the same way they were before, only the cartridges are different. If one were measurably better than the other we'd have those measurements by this point. We see no trend of higher officer survival rates, etc. with the larger calibers. The switch to 9mm has often been touted as improving range scores, but I've yet to see anyone claiming it's improved the percentage of wins at OIS. This is largely because who wins and loses gunfights isn't predicted by range scores (see various NYPD and others studies) because range scores historically are not measuring the right things, or rather are measuring one sliver of the right things. I'm not saying it's not better to be a better shot. I'm saying that a lot of losses occur for reasons that have nothing to do with shooting. Range scores don't measure aggressiveness, tactics, situational awareness, etc. A range score won't tell you who can see trouble coming earlier, who will see the need to use deadly force first, who will hesitate and who won't, etc. Those things generally matter a lot more than the tiny differences in duty calibers at this point.

Pick one, get good with it, learn all the other stuff that separates winners from losers.

Well said sir! Having been in uniform since 1985 and having carried 357 Magnum, 40 , 45 and 9 , I could not agree more. We have folks that shoot the lights out on the range, while being "attacked" by a static piece of copy paper on a cardboard backer. Those folks, I hope to never be covering me in a real fire fight. I now have settled on 9mm and carry 147 HSTs in my duty gun and 124 bonded Federals in my 938 backup.

[GlorifiedMailman]

I've seen a lot of derailed caliber discussions, but never one that derailed into vehement argument over long swords. I'd like to thank BBI and the others who've contributed so much to this thread, and thank you for popping in, Dr. Roberts. I learned some things I didn't know.

[Spartan1980]

I hope you all read post #209 above, then read it again, then share it with your friends....

I do so every chance I get to whom it may serve and I tell them to look here for your posts. You converted me some time back and I'm stacking 147 HST and Gold Dot deep. I still love my .357Sig though. :p Not because it's a mystical death ray, it just has attributes I find valuable.

[JRB]

There ain't no thread drift like P-F thread drift!

a.k.a.

Thou shalt not flex upon thine screen-names unknown - lest ye be corrected by he (she) of unexpected and profound expertise.

[M2CattleCo]

And I thought I was an antique nerd with my 1911s!

[RevolverRob]

Sword: Japanese Katana - made by the legendary Hattori Hanzo, duh.

Knife: Bowie

Car: Ford

Gun: 1911

Caliber: Centimeter.

[mmc45414]

You converted me some time back and I'm stacking 147 HST and Gold Dot deep.
It still seems odd to me, but I just bought a case of G2 so I guess I might be converted too...[emoji41]



Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[GlorifiedMailman]

It still seems odd to me, but I just bought a case of G2 so I guess I might be converted too...[emoji41]



Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Didn't the G2 have problems to the point of the FBI dropping it and replacing it with Critical Duty?

It seems like most of the professionally conducted test results I've seen of it have had problems particularly with expansion.

[mmc45414]

Didn't the G2 have problems to the point of the FBI dropping it and replacing it with Critical Duty?

It seems like most of the professionally conducted test results I've seen of it have had problems particularly with expansion.I believe it is still on the DocGKR list?

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[BehindBlueI's]

Didn't the G2 have problems to the point of the FBI dropping it and replacing it with Critical Duty?

It seems like most of the professionally conducted test results I've seen of it have had problems particularly with expansion.

I'm going from memory but I recall it being posted here before that it was a purchase contract issue, not a performance issue. The contract was awarded to multiple vendors and they would buy so much from each. Winchester also got a slice of the pie, IIRC.


I'm sure if I'm remembering incorrectly someone will come along and smack me back into my proper place soon.

[El Cid]

Didn't the G2 have problems to the point of the FBI dropping it and replacing it with Critical Duty?

It seems like most of the professionally conducted test results I've seen of it have had problems particularly with expansion.

The original batch in 2015 was as recalled. Turns out Speer’s equipment was not cutting the jackets deeply enough to expand properly. Several of us on PF bought the recalled ammo at very good prices (cheaper than FMJ at the time) for training.

The issue was fixed and the ammo went back in service where they still use it today. They maxed out the contract and when they tested for a new contract the Critical Duty did marginally better so it received the contract.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with G2 and I purchased a couple cases for myself before the prices doubled this year.

ETA - just read BBI’s post. He’s correct. Winchester is also available for purchase on their new contract.

[0ddl0t]

147 G2 has had expansion problems in clear gel, 4ld ordnance gel, etc. They ended up recalling a bunch of ammo in 2014-2015 and selling it as practice ammo.

We discussed it recently in this thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39360-Ballistic-gelatin-comparisons-Part-I



Speer was tight lipped, but the G2 V2's skive and seating depth differences are more than a single manufacturing error.

Recalled G2:
44839

Version 2 G2:
44840




Third--like some other projectiles we have tested, including early versions of Gold Dot, Ranger Talon, HST, some lots of G2 had manufacturing QC issues which proved to inhibit bullet terminal performance..........want to guess how these problems were discovered??? (Hint: see photo below showing top row of failed G2 fired through 4LD compared to known control loads)

44880


OK, think that I located the associated data:

9 mm Speer 147 gr G2 at 955 fps (accuracy 95-0x):
BG: Pen = 13.8”, RD = 0.53”, RL = 0.45”, RW = 147.5 gr
4LD: Pen = 20+”, RD = 0.35”, RL = 0.65”, RW = 147.0 gr (all rounds failed to expand)
AG: Pen = 10.5”, RD = 0.65”, RL = 0.54”, RW = 147.5 gr


Supposedly it is all better now, but you'll still sometimes come across current headstamp ammo being sold for training only: https://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-147-gr-jhp-g2-speer-gold-dot-training-only-350-rounds

[HCM]

Didn't the G2 have problems to the point of the FBI dropping it and replacing it with Critical Duty?

It seems like most of the professionally conducted test results I've seen of it have had problems particularly with expansion.

No. your info is out of date.

As El Cid stated expansion issues with G2 were "teething " issues with the initial production lots. Speer recalled that ammo and sold it in bulk as practice only. The current G2 is good to go and has been for couple years now..

In Gov't. contracting you normally cant say "I want X" you have to describe X and/or it's performance and hope you get the X you wanted.

Say a hypothetical 3 letter agency wanted critical duty 9mm so they put out s solicitation for 147 grain 9mm JHP with "goo" in the hollow point (just like critical duty). Since critical Duty is the only such ammo on the market you think you will get exactly what you want. But another company (Speer) develops a 147 grain 9mm JHP with "Goo" that meets the same standards as Critical Duty and the new load (G2) wins the contract.

However, you still want CD. so instead of renewing the initial contract you re-compete and wind up a 135 grain hollow point with goo in the JHP in the flavor you wanted.

[HCM]

https://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-147-gr-jhp-g2-speer-gold-dot-training-only-350-rounds[/url]

You had me excited but they are out of stock.

[El Cid]

No. your info is out of date.

As El Cid stated expansion issues with G2 were "teething " issues with the initial production lots. Speer recalled that ammo and sold it in bulk as practice only. The current G2 is good to go and has been for couple years now..

In Gov't. contracting you normally cant say "I want X" you have to describe X and/or it's performance and hope you get the X you wanted.

Say a hypothetical 3 letter agency wanted critical duty 9mm so they put out s solicitation for 147 grain 9mm JHP with "goo" in the hollow point (just like critical duty). Since critical Duty is the only such ammo on the market you think you will get exactly what you want. But another company (Speer) develops a 147 grain 9mm JHP with "Goo" that meets the same standards as Critical Duty and the new load (G2) wins the contract.

However, you still want CD. so instead of renewing the initial contract you re-compete and wind up a 135 grain hollow point with goo in the JHP in the flavor you wanted.

But buying guns with sights regulated for 147gr pills... and switching to 135gr+P is um... not what I would do. Lol! Most shooters may not notice the difference. But at 25 yards I see a 5 to 6” difference in elevation between 115gr and 147gr.

[El Cid]

You had me excited but they are out of stock.

Same here. Lol! I have some left and use it to vet new guns. I even snagged some of the 45 G2 training ammo.

[0ddl0t]

You had me excited but they are out of stock.


Same here. Lol! I have some left and use it to vet new guns. I even snagged some of the 45 G2 training ammo.

Yeah, it was in stock about a month ago, but went fast. If you really love the stuff, you might see if fatdog's LGS still has some. This was his post from a couple weeks back:



Pulling up this necro thread because a LGS has a mountain of this stuff, the 147gr G2, same reclassified "not for duty use" white box packaging as show above, gold primers, '18 headstamp.

Not thinking of it as carry ammo, but for 350 rounds at 69.00 per box, I am tempted to go load the bus with this stuff as practice ammo.

Just wondering if anybody has purchased and shot a quantity of the reclassified G2 and if it was worthy as practice ammo. The price is certainly right.

[GJM]

But buying guns with sights regulated for 147gr pills... and switching to 135gr+P is um... not what I would do. Lol! Most shooters may not notice the difference. But at 25 yards I see a 5 to 6” difference in elevation between 115gr and 147gr.

At 25 yards, Syntech 150, American Eagle 115 and Lawman 124 have a different enough POI in my Gen 4 34 pistols, to make for trouble shooting head box size targets. This becomes a lot more obvious with a red dot. :cool: