Help Me HK

[RevolverRob]

My first foray into the land of HK was with LEM P30s. I liked them for the most part, but never really warmed up to the “spiderman” grip and finger grooves. I’ve always liked the way the square HKs fit in the hand. Options I am considering:

Full size USP in .45 or 9mm
Compact USP in 9mm
P2000 9mm
HK45 Compact

All of them would either be V1 (TDA), or LEMs of some variant.

I’m leaning HK45C, with the main advantage being the feel and that it uses the same sights as the VP9/P30/HK45 giving me lots of sight options. Con is it’s a .45 and lower capacity. But I have 1911s in .45 and plenty of ammo. Plus the ability to acquire reliable 10-round mags is an advantage over a 1911. Advantage over USP is being able to attach any WML without a special adapter.

The P2000 seems to kind of walk the line between the two, but not sharing the same sights as the later guns, but being easier to attach a light to, and in 9mm.

USP is awesome, by being awesome and also having the best LEM available. Downside it either needs a light with a special adapter or a rail mounted. And holster options with the rail mounted are highly limited and the USP holster market isn’t exactly jammed. It also has limited sight availability compared the VP9/P30/HK45.

[Bigghoss]

You just kinda need a fullsize USP .45 because reasons.

Pretty bummed I missed AIM's trade-ins for $500.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/hkusa/20140509153029/HK-USP-45-leftt.jpg

[HCM]

My first foray into the land of HK was with LEM P30s. I liked them for the most part, but never really warmed up to the “spiderman” grip and finger grooves. I’ve always liked the way the square HKs fit in the hand. Options I am considering:

Full size USP in .45 or 9mm
Compact USP in 9mm
P2000 9mm
HK45 Compact

All of them would either be V1 (TDA), or LEMs of some variant.

I’m leaning HK45C, with the main advantage being the feel and that it uses the same sights as the VP9/P30/HK45 giving me lots of sight options. Con is it’s a .45 and lower capacity. But I have 1911s in .45 and plenty of ammo. Plus the ability to acquire reliable 10-round mags is an advantage over a 1911. Advantage over USP is being able to attach any WML without a special adapter.

The P2000 seems to kind of walk the line between the two, but not sharing the same sights as the later guns, but being easier to attach a light to, and in 9mm.

USP is awesome, by being awesome and also having the best LEM available. Downside it either needs a light with a special adapter or a rail mounted. And holster options with the rail mounted are highly limited and the USP holster market isn’t exactly jammed. It also has limited sight availability compared the VP9/P30/HK45.

The 45c won’t take “any” WML. though it doesn’t have the USP’s proprietary rail, the rail on the 45C is too short for standard WMLs like the SF X300 or TLR-1.

[WOLFIE]

The HK45 compact is an awesome firearm. I have two. One TDA and one LEM. I prefer the TDA. Follow up shots with the single action trigger pull is easier. O ring barrel is cool. Mag release is much easier to use than the USP release. The USP release is too dang small. It also has a flat sided grip.

[10mmfanboy]

I had a usp 45 compact, but I don't anymore, wish I didn't sell it. That was my first pistol actually.
I do have a p2000 v3 and I love it. Not much sight options but between dawson a trijicon sights it's enough for me. I find it to be very accurate and probably shoot it the best of all my pistols. It's less than one ounce heavier loaded than my g19 and slightly smaller overall dimensions. I honestly can't tell much of a difference carrying the two of them. But the p2000 does conceal effortless for me, more so than a g19. I just wish there were more light bearing aiwb holster options.

[Salamander]

Commenting only on the alternatives you've identified:




Full size USP in .45 or 9mm
Compact USP in 9mm
P2000 9mm
HK45 Compact



I have a pair of full size USP 45s, one is set up LEM and is my woods gun, the other is set up DA/SA match trigger and is range use only. I love both of them for their intended purposes. I have no issues concealing the woods gun in field clothes or in cool weather but might hesitate to carry it in town on a warm day in business attire, just a little on the large size for that.

Compact USP... I have only the 45 version, had it set up LEM for a long time but converted it back to DA/SA recently and find I shoot it better that way. I'm tempted to get one in 9mm, and actually fondled one way back when I bought my first HK and was really tempted then. Given a do over I'd get it in 9mm instead of 45 although both are fine pistols. Way easier to conceal than the FS version, and the 9mm version uses the same mags as the 9mm P2000.

P2000, I have two of them, three if you count the sk, and a P2000 9mm LEM with Trijicon HDs has been my primary carry pistol for years. I'm very happy with it, fits my hand nicely, super reliable (one stoppage ever in thousands of rounds, attributable to an out-of-round WWB), easy to conceal. Actually all my HKs have been reliable, no surprise there, this one has seen some pretty intense off-trail backcountry use though including sand, salt spray, rain, snow at high elevations, wind, mud, and it just keeps running.

HK45c... the only one I have essentially no experience with, held one but have never fired it, they are off roster in California and thus pricey on the used market.

So I guess you can't go wrong, it comes down to personal preference. I don't use lights so can't comment on that. The USP vs P2000/HK45c grips are of course very different, I'm one of quite a few people who initially had a strong preference for the newer more "ergonomic" grip (and still like them) while gradually finding that I actually shot the older blockier USP grip a little more accurately, and give the USP trigger the edge. There are adequate holster choices for the P2000, not so much for the older USP.

[10mmfanboy]

I always heard you couldn't mill a hk slide for a red dot. The other night I looked up a few internet searches and I actually saw a lot of p30 with the slides milled. So far I haven't gotten into red dots on pistols, but I figured the day will eventually come and I am excited to see that it is an option. I hope you can mill the slides on all of the HK lineup.

[GardoneVT]

You just kinda need a fullsize USP .45 because reasons.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/hkusa/20140509153029/HK-USP-45-leftt.jpg

"Yo Homie, is that my breifcase?"

[JAH 3rd]

My first HK was the P2000 TDA 9mm. Outside the horrendous trigger pull ( long DA pull and weight ) I like it. I shoot it well and it carries well due to weight and size.

My next HK was a USP 45 full-size TDA. For me, a survey of one, I am not thrilled with it. As the grip goes, I much prefer my S&W M&P 2.0 45 full-size. The texture of the M&P secures it better in my hand. Plus the grip panels allow for adjustment to the shooter. The USP is just a bit blocky in the grip area for me. I like the M&P's grip angle too. As far as function goes, it been 100%, but so has my M&P.

In the end it is the shooter's choice of what to purchase. This has been my opinion coupled with experience.

[fatdog]

I think the choice is a very personal one, based on the grip and trigger, having owned all of those platforms and shot thousands of rounds through each.

In the timers and targets don't lie category, I cannot shoot as well with the P30/VP9 platforms, no matter what combination of sides and backstraps. I do not shoot the P2000/HK45 or 45c grips and LEM triggers as well as the USP/c or full size USP, which just work well for me because of whatever ergonomic reason. I sold off everything else HK this year except the USP and USP/c family.

My HK's are all LEM light. I have no use for their conventional DA/SA trigger system. I don't CCW with a mounted light so that is not a consideration for me and the GGG adapter takes care of the USP full size bedside gun, the only one with a light. All my sights have been Trijicon HD the last 5 years which are available for all the platforms. JMCK once again makes holsters for the full size USP and they never quit on the USP/c, if I feel like using leather I have the Privateer brand handy. Every other holster is a waste of money for me.

My opinion of the whole HK tribe is they are all excellent, but which one is best is an absolutely personal thing based on your use case and personal performance with any particular platform/trigger system. Available holster and sights just ended up being a non-consideration for me since my favorites are available.

I know that others love the P30/VP9 or P2000 platforms and perform well with them. Now that my competition years are mostly behind me, if I were forced to own only one handgun, period, for all use cases, it would a USP/c LEM. And their 10 round magazines work flawlessly if our sinking freedoms ever leave me there.

[Tom Duffy]

I own a P30L and an HK45C, both in light LEM. Both have been flawlessly reliable with about 8,000 rounds each. I prefer the HK45C as I think it has a slightly better trigger release and I prefer the grip, especially with Talon grips. If I shoot fast, I'd have to give the edge to the P30L because of recoil recovery. It's been pointed out that the rail on the HK45C is short enough to be pretty much useless. If it came down to owning only one gun, I'd pick the HK45C.

[OlongJohnson]

...if I were forced to own only one handgun, period, for all use cases, it would a USP/c LEM. And their 10 round magazines work flawlessly if our sinking freedoms ever leave me there.

This is where I am right now. I've said before that if for some reason I had to start all over, and I was in CA, a pair of USP9c's and a 1301 would be how I started. Apart from Fudd guns and rimfires, there wouldn't really be much reason to go farther.

Start with a 9mm Compact. It's CC-able, it has the USP trigger system so you can figure out your Goldilocks version, mags are compatible with P2000/P30/VP9 series. It's only two rounds less than the FS standard system.

Or just go big. (https://gunprime.com/products/hk-usp-expert-45ap-as-10rd-ca)

[Clusterfrack]

You are trying to solve an equation with too many variables. What caliber do you want? If it was me, the answer would be 9mm for almost every application. I don’t care what state I’m in. I have no use for .45, even in a 10 round state.

Now, what size gun do you want?

The USP/c would be my choice if I couldn’t have a p30 or p30sk LEM

[SecondsCount]

I carry either a P2000 or P30 LEM, 9mm, AIWB. Both are as they came with the exception of the sights.

If I had to choose only one, it would be the P30 but I like the little smaller size of the P2000 in the summer months.

[RevolverRob]

You are trying to solve an equation with too many variables. What caliber do you want?

It doesn't matter to me. I'll continue shooting 9mm for competition. If I want to shoot the HK in competition, I only shoot club matches, anyways, so it's less than 100 rounds for any match. For carry, either caliber is fine, Federal HST comes in both calibers and is 5-bucks a box different in price.


Now, what size gun do you want?

I lean more towards a compact-sized gun for carry. Which is why the only full-size gun in consideration is the USP.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

HK45 Compact
P2000
USP

In that order, fwiw.

[Squib308]

RevolverRob

If the USP feels good in the hand then definitely get one. you'll be pleased. I'm kicking myself for selling my USP 40. it shot tremendously. in 9mm it feels strange as in "underchambered". with wimpy loads it barely ejects. the gun runs reliably in 9mm but it's clearly designed around something with a bit more momentum. the USP compact models are a pistol for which I have zero use. as a compact pistol they don't check any more boxes than a P2000.

to me the primary difference between the USP 45 and an HK45 is the recoil reduction system. the USP's dual spring system is noticeably softer shooting than the delrin/plastic ring of the HK45. I'm not convinced there's much difference in durability but they do shoot differently. both are tremendous pistols. there currently appear to be some USP 45 experts on the market at decent price. i would consider that route if for no other reason the resale value is solid. the main draw to a P2000 or P30 is the decocker. I find it perfect. if the HK45 utilized a P2000/P30 rear decocker I would be even more enthusiastic towards it. the P30 or P30L appear to me like the most highly evolved HK pistol including the magazine compatibility. unless you're set on 45acp chambering I would go with a P2000 or P30. the P30L is nice too although I take the P30 out of the safe far more often than the P30L. I have found they shoot similarly but then again I'm not on a timer.

despite my attempts, I have never warmed up to LEM and have thus abandoned it. nothing wrong with it per se but I found it bizarre. TDA comes more naturally to me. with a USP if one acquires a V1 or standard model then can install the LEM. if starting with an LEM, HK has historically refused to sell the V1 parts. if i were considering an LEM I would purchase a V1 and an LEM kit separately. my primary carry is an M9A1 or 92A1. on some occasions I'll switch to a Sig P220. Despite enjoying the HK pistols I cannot much comment on their carry-ability. thankfully JMCK is now offering USP holsters so in the highly unlikely event that I fall out of love with the 92 I might go that route.

[David S.]

My only USP experience is with the Compact model in .40. I find the recoil unpleasant.

[rayrevolver]

BLUF: For purely games, the shooting dynamics of the fullsize USP 9 just didn't do it for me. It seemed like it was shooting in slow motion with a lot of flip relative to a G34.


My first foray into HK was the P30L with light LEM. End of the day, that version of the LEM was too slow for C shooter like me. This was before the TLG 4.1 and I wonder how that trigger system, or others would have changed my opinion. It was reliable and a tack driver.

BUT - I still have this idea in my head that LEM is awesome...

Fast forward a few years and I decide to sell a few Glocks and get 1 pistol to rule them all: USP 9 Tactical. I converted it Match Hybrid LEM. That trigger is fantastic. But like I say above, shooting it fast was a chore and I just couldn't make it work.

I am back to a G34 for the games. And will dip my toes in the 2011 world shortly. I am tempted by the HK45C but want to stick with 9mm.

[TGS]

I could never get as solid a grip on my P2000 as I could virtually any other gun.

If I were doing HKs again, it'd be a USP Compact for the blocky, effective grip.

My dream gun would be a USP Compact featuring a P2000 slide, universal rail and the trigger of a Beretta 92. One can dream.

FWIW, if you don't like the standard mag release on the P2000 and USP Compact, you can switch it for the HK45c mag release. Very noticeable upgrade, great bang for the buck.

[psalms144.1]

I've owned the USP (9mm and 40), USP-C (45), HK45C, HK45, VP9, P2000, and P30. All were DA/SA except the latter two, which were "V4" LEMs. My observations, based on shooting all of them quite a bit:

HKs are the "gold standard" for reliability for a reason. Accuracy tends to be good to great, despite "meh" or worse triggers. I never warmed up to the LEM, even though I ran one exclusively and trained hard with it for about 18 months. Night sight options are limited for all but the P30/HK45 dovetails.

Were I in the market for a DA/SA pistol right now, it would be the CZ P07. It's size equivalent with the P2000 with more capacity, a better trigger out of the box, and equivalent accuracy (in my experience).

If you're dead set on HKs, in 9mm I'd go for the P2000 (I strongly prefer the rear slide decocker vs the multi-use safety/decock lever of the USP), then the USPc. In 45, I slightly favor the USP-C for trigger reasons, though, again, I don't care for the safety/decock lever, personally.

[Bergeron]

I’d really like to know what a Lazy Wolf modified USP is like.

[JAD]

I presume you already have a couple of P7s. I’m not suggesting they’re practical. I think they’re bitchin’.

[OlongJohnson]

FWIW, if you don't like the standard mag release on the P2000 and USP Compact, you can switch it for the HK45c mag release. Very noticeable upgrade, great bang for the buck.

I discussed that mod in one of the other USP threads here, either the field gun or carry .45 threads. It's important to do a little material removal on the HK45c mag release if you put it in other guns to be sure it fully engages the magazine notch. If you don't do the mod to the lever and have partial engagement, you can wear the edge of the notch and get into a condition where the mags drop out at bad times. Which just might get a person kilt in da streetz. It also better aligns the paddles with the trigger guard.

Also, the mag release has pretty big paddles. I reduce them in size, so it ends up being in between the USP levers and the HK45c levers. The releases are just plastic, so it's easy to sand them down, and they're cheap if you want to start over.

--------------

I went and looked at HK45s on GunBroker because of this thread. I think you'd be able to pick up a full size HK45 pretty darned affordably. Like these:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/834490378

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/843242537

If I wasn't already elbows deep in figuring out the trigger on USPs, it would be a compelling option. (ETA: The HK45 actually uses almost all the USP trigger bits that matter, so the only part of any LEM or Match combination that wouldn't work would be the overtravel screw on the trigger, which shouldn't be used on a serious gun anyway. At least that's my takeaway from having just done a dive on HKWebShop and Brownells.) I think the grip is the least Spiderman of all the Spiderman grips. Rob should go back and read all of Todd's discussion of that fine pistol so he can stay indecisive. Heck, I may pick up one myself. Waffles are awesome, and go great with fried chicken.

[MGW]

I love my 45c V1. I shoot it well, it’s extremely accurate, and reliable. I carried it all over the mountains in Colorado summer before last in a JM AIWB. I didn’t have anything else with sub 15 round magazines at the time, other than 1911’s, so took it as my carry gun. A friend of mine can’t understand why I keep an 8 round Glock 19 size gun around. I hate Glock 19s and love the 45c that’s why. My only complaint is it needs grip tape or it feels very slippery to me.

I have considered picking up a couple P2000’s as carry guns. Basically the same size but in 9mm with a few more bb’s. I would really like another 45c too. I had another one in LEM but my brain can’t grasp that system.

[Doc_Glock]

My experience all in 9mm:

VP9: amazing shooting gun. Brings out the best in a shooter. For the few rounds I have through it, I almost always find myself performing near the top of my capability.

P30/P30l: ditto but slightly worse performance. Prefer the V3 to LEM variants slightly.

USPc: great LEM trigger. Horrible ergonomics when set up with any other trigger. But you can have about 10 variants if you want. I absolutely hated the gun and happily got rid of it.

P2000: great tweener perfect carry size. Prefer to USPc in many ways, but it is no P30.

P30Sk: another nice small gun. The V3 has a beast of a 10.5lb DA, it is otherwise good to go.

All are amazingly reliable, very accurate and apparently durable. The VP9 will drop its striker if you hit it just right, which is an unlikely real world occurrence.

[TCB]

After 7+ years being saddled with an H&K I don’t get the fascination with them. Ours are dropping like flys, not uncommon to hear of a couple going down a week. Most of my experience is with the P2000 in .40 S&W but have owned a number (5 in both 9 & 40) of the VP series guns and as good as they were the slide release was in a stupid place and the magazine capacity was underwhelming compared to its competition. The P30 series is fairly okish but with some of the same drawbacks as the VP series. People keep telling me the USP series was the best but the couple I’ve shot were meh... The MP5s and G3’s I’ve shot...yea...awesome. But the pistols have seriously never blown my skirt up. As soon as I heard we were moving away from them I dumped every personally owned one I had and don’t miss them at all. Can’t wait until I can get rid of my issues one. Sorry to be a downer and don’t take this as an insult to your favorite brand but I just don’t get the near deification of H&Ks pistol line. I tried and have 10s of thousands of rounds on various H&K platforms, they aren’t bad...they’re just not that good. Maybe it’s just me?

[RevolverRob]

After 7+ years being saddled with an H&K I don’t get the fascination with them. Ours are dropping like flys, not uncommon to hear of a couple going down a week. Most of my experience is with the P2000 in .40 S&W but have owned a number (5 in both 9 & 40) of the VP series guns and as good as they were the slide release was in a stupid place and the magazine capacity was underwhelming compared to its competition. The P30 series is fairly okish but with some of the same drawbacks as the VP series. People keep telling me the USP series was the best but the couple I’ve shot were meh... The MP5s and G3’s I’ve shot...yea...awesome. But the pistols have seriously never blown my skirt up. As soon as I heard we were moving away from them I dumped every personally owned one I had and don’t miss them at all. Can’t wait until I can get rid of my issues one. Sorry to be a downer and don’t take this as an insult to your favorite brand but I just don’t get the near deification of H&Ks pistol line. I tried and have 10s of thousands of rounds on various H&K platforms, they aren’t bad...they’re just not that good. Maybe it’s just me?

I don’t think anyone argues that H&K makes guns that are the best shooting or most concealable on the planet. And sometimes the ergos suck (e.g, spiderman grips and the slide release on the VP/P30).

The question I have for you is: In 7+ years, did you ever worry significantly about reliability of your H&Ks?

I’ll preface by saying, I don’t care much for striker fired guns. If I want a light single-action like trigger - 1911. For me, the hammer is part of the equation. And as far as hammer fired guns go HKs, CZs, and Berettas are the best choices these days.

Also, don’t get me wrong, I also sometimes don’t get the rabid HK Fanboi love. To me the P7 and P9S are two goofy solutions in search of problems. And HK makes it excessively difficult to get parts, etc (though I see it has gotten a lot better since the VP series came out).

But I don’t care about being able to shoot sub-.2 splits. I care about the gun being utterly reliable and accurate to the point of boredom. That’s it.

[JRB]

HK pistols to own:

- Fullsize USP45
- HK45C
- Anything else

My 'Anything Else' is a USP40 I recently bought because it was just too good of a deal to pass up, and it'll convert to other calibers well. That and because of that circa 1993 photo of the Counter-Terrorist guy holding a USP40 on the cover of the old Rainbow Six PC game.

I bought my HK45C as an LEM, but it's still waiting for me at my FFL and I'll give LEM the college try when I get home. If the LEM program goes well, I'll do the match hybrid LEM in my USP's and tweak the LEM in my HK45C if needed. If my LEM experiment doesn't go well, I'm leaning toward Match/Match hybridized V3's(G-Beretta style decock only) in both.

HK mag capacities never made sense to me until I considered HK's design principles in everything else. I regret that I can't remember who said it here, but one of P-F's experts said that HK was a magazine manufacturer that happened to build guns as well. I think there's a hell of a lot of truth to that.

HK's magazines and other designs have been founded on bomb-proof, end of the world longevity, and I believe they sacrifice outright magazine capacity in exchange for service life longevity in magazines and magazine springs.
My experience reflects that reliability, having been limited to two magazines for my USP45 and two magazines for my G3 clone through the AWB era, and putting cases and cases of ammo through those weapons with only those two magazines I never once saw a magazine related issue.

TCB's experience at an institutional level is of significant value to me - because you never really know how good a gun is until you issue tons of them to people that don't really maintain or care about those guns beyond having signed for that weapon.
Thanks for taking the time to share that experience, Sir!

[TCB]

Rob, our guns are fairy reliable and accurate for that matter. Although I have failure to loads regularly with mine (usually shooting one handed). I’ve been told it’s the X300U I have mounted but the problem didn’t develop on mine for a few thousand rounds after it was installed. I got a new one earlier this year and it’s been a bit better but they still happen unless my one handed grip (L & R) is perfect. I keep pretty good records on my duty gun and have never totaled the failures but I’d guess they are close to triple digits over the 12k or so rounds I had on it before it got deadline. I’ve found that new magazines help the issue for a bit but has never cured it. On magazines we go through them pretty frequently, lots of rusted out magazines and springs loosing their spring tension. There are literally piles of them in our FIs office. PAs have the reputation of being able to break a bowling ball so take that into account, we’re fairly rough on equipment.

They generally go bang and put rounds fairly close to where I want them to go. That’s really all I’m looking for in a duty gun so they do their job. I can shoot them fast, I can shoot them accurately but I’ve never been able to do both at the same time. To be fair the only pistol that really fills me with joy is a 1911, bit I have no desire to carry one on or off duty. Most of the current well known plastic pistols out there are fine for either of those rolls. Trying to chase the dragon will drive you crazy, find one you like and drive on. For gaming? Yea, incremental improvements can make a difference but for anything else the software is much more important than the hardware IMO. If you like H&K go for it. I actually really like the ergos on the P30/VP series guns...

[Doc_Glock]

I forgot to add that the giant slide releases on the VP9 and P30 series seems like a design flaw. You can pretty much expect auto forwarding with any slightly aggressive reload.

I like to swap them for the shorter version which is available from HK for another $30-50, that helps with thumb interference,
But it still auto forwards.

I love almost everything about HKs in concept, but the Glock/SCD combination is unbeatable for carry IMO. The HKs sit in the safe.

[Tokarev]

PAs have the reputation of being able to break a bowling ball so take that into account, we’re fairly rough on equipment.

They generally go bang...


Broken trigger springs are becoming a fairly common occurrence as the guns get older. One of the HK sales reps told me awhile ago that the reduced power spring will last longer but that's never been an authorized option for us.



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[OlongJohnson]

After 7+ years being saddled with an H&K I don’t get the fascination with them. Ours are dropping like flys, not uncommon to hear of a couple going down a week. Most of my experience is with the P2000 in .40 S&W...

Pretty sure it was HCM who has mentioned guys with his agency preferring the USPc if they can hang onto them. I suspect the P2000 may hold up better in 9mm, and the USP even better.


And HK makes it excessively difficult to get parts, etc (though I see it has gotten a lot better since the VP series came out).

With the new HKWebShop setup, it's actually awesomely easy, and most small parts are surprisingly inexpensive. Use TooSixy's lists, Brownells or other retailers' lookups to ID part numbers, and just search for them on the HK site. There basically is no indexing. If something doesn't come up, call them.


Broken trigger springs are becoming a fairly common occurrence as the guns get older. One of the HK sales reps told me awhile ago that the reduced power spring will last longer but that's never been an authorized option for us.

At least the trigger spring can be changed independently of any other components. It only takes a couple minutes to press the trigger axle out and put in a new spring. And they're cheap.

[RAM Engineer]

You are trying to solve an equation with too many variables. What caliber do you want? If it was me, the answer would be 9mm for almost every application. I don’t care what state I’m in. I have no use for .45, even in a 10 round state.

Now, what size gun do you want?

The USP/c would be my choice if I couldn’t have a p30 or p30sk LEM

Curious as to what factors would lead you to a USP/C vs a P2000? Thanks.

[Tokarev]

Pretty sure it was HCM who has mentioned guys with his agency preferring the USPc if they can hang onto them. I suspect the P2000 may hold up better in 9mm, and the USP even better.



With the new HKWebShop setup, it's actually awesomely easy, and most small parts are surprisingly inexpensive. Use TooSixy's lists, Brownells or other retailers' lookups to ID part numbers, and just search for them on the HK site. There basically is no indexing. If something doesn't come up, call them.



At least the trigger spring can be changed independently of any other components. It only takes a couple minutes to press the trigger axle out and put in a new spring. And they're cheap.A far less common occurrence, but even more troubling, is the occasional frozen firing pin. Depending on work environment some crud will accumulate in the firing pin channel and retard movement to the point that the gun won't fire.

Not unique to the HK I suppose but being that the firing pin is not readily removable it is something to be mindful of.



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[Clusterfrack]

Curious as to what factors would lead you to a USP/C vs a P2000? Thanks.

I’m not the best person to have an opinion because I have one HK and don’t use it. My understanding is that the USP is the most robust of the line, and lends itself to trigger changes. I also prefer a “normal” placement of the decocker.

[HCM]

A far less common occurrence, but even more troubling, is the occasional frozen firing pin. Depending on work environment some crud will accumulate in the firing pin channel and retard movement to the point that the gun won't fire.

Not unique to the HK I suppose but being that the firing pin is not readily removable it is something to be mindful of.



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Early USPC’s had issues with firing pin breakage but “frozen” FP sounds like a Maintenance issue. I mean we are talking about a group that includes someone who accidentally cooked his loaded duty gun in the oven....

[kihnspiracy]

It all boils down to personal preference. I have a USP45 Tactical LE, USP45, P30L V3, VP9. I have owned other HK pistols. The one thing that I have to add, is that in several decades of shooting, the only brand I have ever shot that never had an issue is HK.

[Tokarev]

Early USPC’s had issues with firing pin breakage but “frozen” FP sounds like a Maintenance issue.

It is a maintenance issue but also somewhat of a design flaw. The firing pin's shaft is solid and close to the same diameter as the firing pin channel. Accumulated crud can block the pin from free movement. Some type of "sand cuts" or grooves in the shaft would no doubt help the pin move under extreme circumstances.

Being that the pin is roll-pinned in place and the one pin retains both the firing pin and spring and the safety plunger and spring, these parts are not serviceable by the employee. FMAT-trained employees have been instructed to remove the pin and clean out the channel every so often depending on when the armorer obtained his cert. In fact I seem to recall the actual P2000 armorer's manual says to clean the channel every 5,000 rounds and/or annually.

All this makes the case that a service-use pistol should have a firing pin or striker that can be removed fairly easily and without too much fuss...

[Clusterfrack]

It is a maintenance issue but also somewhat of a design flaw. The firing pin's shaft is solid and close to the same diameter as the firing pin channel. Accumulated crud can block the pin from free movement. Some type of "sand cuts" or grooves in the shaft would no doubt help the pin move under extreme circumstances.

Being that the pin is roll-pinned in place and the one pin retains both the firing pin and spring and the safety plunger and spring, these parts are not serviceable by the employee. FMAT-trained employees have been instructed to remove the pin and clean out the channel every so often depending on when the armorer obtained his cert. In fact I seem to recall the actual P2000 armorer's manual says to clean the channel every 5,000 rounds and/or annually.

All this makes the case that a service-use pistol should have a firing pin or striker that can be removed fairly easily and without too much fuss...

That does appear to be a design flaw. Do you know which if any HK models have a user serviceable firing pin and safety plunger?

[TCB]

HCM, SO...TRUE... But how else are you supposed to dry them off after a run through the dishwasher?

Having on one occasion to put my P2000 on the ground and use a power sprayer at our wash racks one night to get the mud out of every nook and cranny they do hold up fairly well to the abuse we put them through. There was a picture floating around years ago of one of our ATV guys gun that he cracked the grip off of in an accident...I’ve never seen anything like that before. It’ll be interesting to see how the Glocks hold up.

[Clusterfrack]

...which if any HK models have a user serviceable firing pin and safety plunger?

Answered my own question, at least for the p30. Full disassembly of the slide on a p30 looks straightforward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmKPgDTGQY

[Tokarev]

There was a picture floating around years ago of one of our ATV guys gun that he cracked the grip off of in an accident...I’ve never seen anything like that before. It’ll be interesting to see how the Glocks hold up.

I have a classmate who broke his P2000 while in a knock-down drag-out with a prep. Not sure how or when the pistol got broken but it broke the trigger guard off.

Regarding the "pistol in the oven" incident; the agent thought it would be a safe place to hide his firearm. Too bad he didn't tell his wife the gun was in there. In a similar incident, another employee hid his pistol inside his kitchen trash can. Again, telling the wife would have saved him a bunch of grief...

[Tokarev]

Answered my own question, at least for the p30. Full disassembly of the slide on a p30 looks straightforward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmKPgDTGQY


Same disassembly as the P2000 in this regard.

Some of our special operations guys had the 40 S&W P30 for awhile. Quite a few of them suffered from broken guide rods. They sheared off right along the hook.


That does appear to be a design flaw. Do you know which if any HK models have a user serviceable firing pin and safety plunger?

The VP9's striker comes out in a manner pretty similar to the Glock, M&P, etc.

[RevolverRob]

Answered my own question, at least for the p30. Full disassembly of the slide on a p30 looks straightforward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmKPgDTGQY

Similar to the HK45 and 45C apparently. Not as simple as a 1911...but not terribly difficult, either.

[Clusterfrack]

The VP9's striker comes out in a manner pretty similar to the Glock, M&P, etc.

Not quite like the M&P, where you have to remove the rear sight to access the safety plunger :(

[HCM]

HCM, SO...TRUE... But how else are you supposed to dry them off after a run through the dishwasher?

Having on one occasion to put my P2000 on the ground and use a power sprayer at our wash racks one night to get the mud out of every nook and cranny they do hold up fairly well to the abuse we put them through. There was a picture floating around years ago of one of our ATV guys gun that he cracked the grip off of in an accident...I’ve never seen anything like that before. It’ll be interesting to see how the Glocks hold up.

I’ve seen the ATV roll over P2k with the grip snapped off. The HK polymer is harder than the Glock material. It probably can be deformed enough to disable the gun but seems less likely to snap.

Everyone knows you keep your gun in the freezer, not the oven. Am I the only one who has seen the original Shaft ?

The USPC’s were tanks and held up very well outside the early issues with firing pin breakage which were addressed. The P2k is very similar but has some internal differences to cut manufacturing costs. That’s why the USPC’s usually have nicer trigger pulls even comparing V2 LEM to V2 LEM.

I’m not a fan of the Spider-Man grip. They feel great but flat sided guns track better for me at speed.

[Tokarev]

Not quite like the M&P, where you have to remove the rear sight to access the safety plunger :(Same with the VP9 in that regard. The safety plunger doesn't come out without a bit more work.


Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[Doc_Glock]

Answered my own question, at least for the p30. Full disassembly of the slide on a p30 looks straightforward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRmKPgDTGQY

The P Series HKs are not bad at all to disassemble and clean. Just need the TRS tool.

[Duelist]

HCM, SO...TRUE... But how else are you supposed to dry them off after a run through the dishwasher?

Having on one occasion to put my P2000 on the ground and use a power sprayer at our wash racks one night to get the mud out of every nook and cranny they do hold up fairly well to the abuse we put them through. There was a picture floating around years ago of one of our ATV guys gun that he cracked the grip off of in an accident...I’ve never seen anything like that before. It’ll be interesting to see how the Glocks hold up.

A friend of mine is an agent who rolled an ATV and broke his HK’s grip off. He was hurt pretty badly - breaking his gun was the least of his problems. I would imagine it’s the same guy.

[SecondsCount]

The P Series HKs are not bad at all to disassemble and clean. Just need the TRS tool.
A small pair of needle nosed pliers work well also.

[Toonces]

I’d really like to know what a Lazy Wolf modified USP is like.

If you are referring to the trigger, I'd say wonderful and maybe too light based on my my Lazy Wolf P2000 LEM. Sample of 1, IMO, and all that applies. I measured it when I first got it, and it was a tick under 4 lbs. It is smooth unlike any other HK I've fired (not many) or dry fired (lots). I bought it from M2CattleCo, so I didn't have to wait and got a hell of a deal.

[TCB]

A friend of mine is an agent who rolled an ATV and broke his HK’s grip off. He was hurt pretty badly - breaking his gun was the least of his problems. I would imagine it’s the same guy.

I can imagine...every bad call where an Agent was hurt that I’ve responded to as an EMT was an ATV guy. Those things want to kill you and will take every opportunity to do so.

[1slow]

I can imagine...every bad call where an Agent was hurt that I’ve responded to as an EMT was an ATV guy. Those things want to kill you and will take every opportunity to do so.

I rode off road motorcycles a lot when I was younger. It seemed that it was easier not to get hurt as badly as with ATVs, and that they were easier to get away from in a crash and lighter than ATVs. Unless you highsided you were generally OK. Sliding out was not too bad.

3 & 4 wheelers seem to inspire speed past rider skill and then roll all over you in a crash. Of course the handle mud/sand better and carry more stuff.

[J0hnny]

P2000 was my favorite carry gun but ever since I got it back from GrayGuns with the trigger bar issue I just lost confidence in it and carry a USPc instead. Also Trijicon HD’s POI on the USPc is right behind the dot whereas on the P2K it’s too low for me. For me it’s a toss up between USPc and P30 with upgraded sights, or HK45c if caliber is a consideration over capacity.

[OlongJohnson]

I rode off road motorcycles a lot when I was younger. It seemed that it was easier not to get hurt as badly as with ATVs, and that they were easier to get away from in a crash and lighter than ATVs. Unless you highsided you were generally OK. Sliding out was not too bad.

3 & 4 wheelers seem to inspire speed past rider skill and then roll all over you in a crash. Of course the handle mud/sand better and carry more stuff.

I find bikes tend to find a side and slide fairly quickly. Quads just tumble. So the sack of potatoes ends up with the giant potato on top of it at point of rest, to massively oversimplify things.

They're kind of opposites. Where quads are at their best, bikes are sketchiest. Where bikes are awesome, quads can be terrifying. They both want to hurt you, just in totally different ways.

I happen to prefer bikes.

[Bergeron]

If you are referring to the trigger, I'd say wonderful and maybe too light based on my my Lazy Wolf P2000 LEM. Sample of 1, IMO, and all that applies. I measured it when I first got it, and it was a tick under 4 lbs. It is smooth unlike any other HK I've fired (not many) or dry fired (lots). I bought it from M2CattleCo, so I didn't have to wait and got a hell of a deal.

Thank you, yes- I find the ergonomics of the USP to be excellent, but the trigger to be lacking.

I started centerfire pistol shooting with the USP, and while I can be sure that I was in sufficiently diligent in training the DA pull, it was worked away from the TJIAB Beretta 92 that I’ve recently experienced. The weight of the stock USP SA was fine, but I’ve read here on PF of a literal trigger finger injury from frequent stock USP DA practice.

The SA was also uneven, stagey, and gritty. I actually prefer a “creepy” trigger with a rolling break, but I want all the smoothness and consistency I can get.

The USP is fantastic in grip shape and texture, and in the size, shape, and location of the mag release, slide release, and thumb safeties- but I’d have to have a cleaner trigger, and lighter in DA, to try one again.

[HCM]

I can imagine...every bad call where an Agent was hurt that I’ve responded to as an EMT was an ATV guy. Those things want to kill you and will take every opportunity to do so.

They really are just like Horses.... :rolleyes:

[HCM]

I'd love to see a USP 2 with a non unicorn light rail, the USPC recoil system and taking P30/HK45 mags but keeping the USP grip instead of the spider man grip. never happen though.

[ralph]

They really are just like Horses.... :rolleyes:

You know, that’s really a good analogy....

[ralph]

I'd love to see a USP 2 with a non unicorn light rail, the USPC recoil system and taking P30/HK45 mags but keeping the USP grip instead of the spider man grip. never happen though.

The sad thing is, I don’t think it would take all that much effort to make a change to the mold used for the frame, so that it had a pic rail. I’m honestly surprised that they haven’t done it by now.. I mean, nobody uses their rail system. It was dead in the water 20years ago. I don’t understand why making a minor change that could gain them sales is so difficult for them to understand...

[RevolverRob]

I'd love to see a USP 2 with a non unicorn light rail, the USPC recoil system and taking P30/HK45 mags but keeping the USP grip instead of the spider man grip. never happen though.

Or a HK45 that has been grip reduced? Won't have the recoil system...but it would be close...

45027

[HCM]

Or a HK45 that has been grip reduced? Won't have the recoil system...but it would be close...

45027

Grip reductions are for small handed Carnival and Donald J Trump.i have man hands :-)

[OlongJohnson]

I'd love to see a USP 2 with a non unicorn light rail, the USPC recoil system and taking P30/HK45 mags but keeping the USP grip instead of the spider man grip. never happen though.

The HK45 does have the USPc recoil system. And you could always get material added to the grip, rather than reducing it.


The sad thing is, I don’t think it would take all that much effort to make a change to the mold used for the frame, so that it had a pic rail. I’m honestly surprised that they haven’t done it by now.. I mean, nobody uses their rail system. It was dead in the water 20years ago. I don’t understand why making a minor change that could gain them sales is so difficult for them to understand...

This is what the HK45 basically was. It's the same trigger system as the USP45 with a Pic rail, the USPc recoil system, ambi slide catch levers and a kinda-more-ergo control lever. By which, I'm guessing maybe it doesn't interact with the inside of the thumb as much under recoil? A new sight format that is common to P30/VP and so now well supported in the aftermarket.

I suspect the Spiderman grip (my timing might be off, but I believe the HK45 was the first one) was intended to make the cross section of the grip closer to the 1911, with its smaller front and rear radii and curved scales that everybody seems to love so much - and nobody ever complains about not being flat-sided enough for them to control the recoil.

As noted earlier, this thread has actually made me curious about the grip. It doesn't have the triangular backstrap that I believe is likely the reason people fight to control P30s and have elevation scatter. Todd G was able to get his splits right back where he thought they should be in like a week of working with it. Same trigger mechanism, more normal recoil impulse, Pic rail, more sight options. Could be very good.

[Salamander]

T

The USP is fantastic in grip shape and texture, and in the size, shape, and location of the mag release, slide release, and thumb safeties- but I’d have to have a cleaner trigger, and lighter in DA, to try one again.

What I like about the USP full size is that the trigger can be more finely tuned. The stock V1 feels OK until you've tried the V1 match trigger in an Expert or Elite, those are amazing; although the stock V1 does smooth out gradually with use and the match setup is a little light for carry.

In LEM, changes have more obvious results in the USP series than in a P2000. For example, the light LEM is too light for me in a P2000, and changing hammer springs makes little difference. On the other hand when I recently converted a V1 USP 45 to match hybrid LEM, it felt great with the light TRS. But then when I put in the match hammer spring it was too light for the street (would have been great for the range), so I put the standard one back in.

I've now been able to get two USPs exactly where I want them, but don't feel there's quite as much control over the P2000 trigger although TRS and FPBS can still do a lot.

I do usually shoot the USP and USPc more accurately in slow fire, and the trigger is at least part of that. It's all relative though, because every HK I've ever fired has been acceptably accurate or better.

[HCM]

The HK45 does have the USPc recoil system. And you could always get material added to the grip, rather than reducing it.



This is what the HK45 basically was. It's the same trigger system as the USP45 with a Pic rail, the USPc recoil system, ambi slide catch levers and a kinda-more-ergo control lever. By which, I'm guessing maybe it doesn't interact with the inside of the thumb as much under recoil? A new sight format that is common to P30/VP and so now well supported in the aftermarket.

I suspect the Spiderman grip (my timing might be off, but I believe the HK45 was the first one) was intended to make the cross section of the grip closer to the 1911, with its smaller front and rear radii and curved scales that everybody seems to love so much - and nobody ever complains about not being flat-sided enough for them to control the recoil.

As noted earlier, this thread has actually made me curious about the grip. It doesn't have the triangular backstrap that I believe is likely the reason people fight to control P30s and have elevation scatter. Todd G was able to get his splits right back where he thought they should be in like a week of working with it. Same trigger mechanism, more normal recoil impulse, Pic rail, more sight options. Could be very good.

The HK45 has a modular grip. What I hate about it is the roundness of the Spider-Man grip. I prefer flat sided grips like the USP or even the HK45C. The 45c has the original grip style but the rail is so short as to be useless.

[Clusterfrack]

Those things want to kill you and will take every opportunity to do so.


They really are just like Horses.... :rolleyes:

Actually that would be the camel.

[Exiledviking]

In LEM...On the other hand when I recently converted a V1 USP 45 to match hybrid LEM, it felt great with the light TRS. But then when I put in the match hammer spring it was too light for the street (would have been great for the range), so I put the standard one back in.



I've gone to the LEM heavy hammer springs on my full-size LEM USP pistols. They're all LEM/Match hybrids. I felt that the standard (DA/SA) HS was too light when combined with the light LEM TRS and FPBS.

I just installed a LEM heavy HS in my friend's light LEM HK45 with the nickel plated sear spring. We'll see how he likes it. We might go back to the standard DA/SA hammer spring on it.

[ralph]

The HK45 does have the USPc recoil system. And you could always get material added to the grip, rather than reducing it.



This is what the HK45 basically was. It's the same trigger system as the USP45 with a Pic rail, the USPc recoil system, ambi slide catch levers and a kinda-more-ergo control lever. By which, I'm guessing maybe it doesn't interact with the inside of the thumb as much under recoil? A new sight format that is common to P30/VP and so now well supported in the aftermarket.

I suspect the Spiderman grip (my timing might be off, but I believe the HK45 was the first one) was intended to make the cross section of the grip closer to the 1911, with its smaller front and rear radii and curved scales that everybody seems to love so much - and nobody ever complains about not being flat-sided enough for them to control the recoil.

As noted earlier, this thread has actually made me curious about the grip. It doesn't have the triangular backstrap that I believe is likely the reason people fight to control P30s and have elevation scatter. Todd G was able to get his splits right back where he thought they should be in like a week of working with it. Same trigger mechanism, more normal recoil impulse, Pic rail, more sight options. Could be very good.

I had an HK.45, and my impressions were that it’s a huge gun considering the mag capacity. Another thing I grew to hate on it was the trough in the triggerguard, my finger would rub against it to the point that it became uncomfortable to shoot alot of rounds out of. That’s primarily why I sold it, it was uncomfortable to shoot, and didn’t have any more mag capacity than the .45c does, and isn’t any more accurate than the .45c, at least in my experience. I have a .45c, .45ct, and a USPc in.45, the biggest gripe I have with the .45c,ct, is that the grip texture is the same as a P-2000, and it’s slippery, I have a set of Talons ( rough texture) coming I have a set of these on my .45ct, and the lock your hand on the grip. Between the two, I think a pic rail on the USP would IMO, make it better than the.45c, because IMO, the USP has a much better grip.

I also have a P-30 LEM, and I’ve found that putting the large grip panels, back strap, has really helped me, not that I have large hands, but I can get better grip on it.

[OlongJohnson]

Given all the other stuff that is the same part number on the insides, an interesting question occurs to me.

Has anybody looked at interchangeability of the recoil spring assembly between the USP .45 FS and the HK45? If they will interchange without issue, perhaps it would provide a safer solution for those who wish to shoot .45 Super in their HK45, and a more "normal" recoil impulse for those who shoot only .45 Automatic in their USP .45 FS. One could actually "convert" depending on intended use.

Just a question. I don't have access to an HK45, or I'd already have measured all the parts and tried it.

Just for context, I'm a guy who has a mix of WR426 and WR450 gears in his YZ250, a bunch of GSX-R stuff on his SV650, a Volvo radiator and intercooler in his Miata, and used to own a rotary-powered Datsun.

[RevolverRob]

Well, I'm gonna hold off for a bit, before I go crazy. The new-to-me FJ Cruiser is going to need a bit of work to be in tip-top shape and that's gonna sap the "fun" budget for awhile.

But of course, it should be fun all on it's own.

[Guerrero]

"Help me HK"

Is no one going to say, "...you're my only hope"?

[Balisong]

"Help me HK"

Is no one going to say, "...you're my only hope"?

It's gone through my head each and every time I've seen the thread title.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

The sad thing is, I don’t think it would take all that much effort to make a change to the mold used for the frame, so that it had a pic rail. I’m honestly surprised that they haven’t done it by now.. I mean, nobody uses their rail system. It was dead in the water 20years ago. I don’t understand why making a minor change that could gain them sales is so difficult for them to understand...

It would only take them completing about 3-5 years worth of testing to revalidate that the pistol still performs as it currently does, don't count on this... EVER. The 'Just add a pic rail' thought process would definitely be something SIG would have done in a heartbeat and never tested it...

[ralph]

It would only take them completing about 3-5 years worth of testing to revalidate that the pistol still performs as it currently does, don't count on this... EVER. The 'Just add a pic rail' thought process would definitely be something SIG would have done in a heartbeat and never tested it...

True. But, HK has had about 25years to mull it over...

[Duelist]

It's gone through my head each and every time I've seen the thread title.

#me2 (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=me2)

[RevolverRob]

"Help me HK"

Is no one going to say, "...you're my only hope"?

My wife's mother was an OB-GYN Nurse and for years the kids called her, "OB-GYN-Kenobi".

But I like "Help me HK...you're my only hope." It seems like something Dagga Boy would say.

[OlongJohnson]

The 'Just add a pic rail' thought process would definitely be something SIG would have done in a heartbeat and never tested it...

Ummmm... Mk25 much?

What annoys me is that they didn't just make it universal across the board on all the classic Sigs, so agencies that wanted to stick with the lame Sig rail would have to special order.

[RevolverRob]

I keep trying to find the right phraseology -

Help me Volks-Pistol-Koch you're my only hope...

Help me Heck-Ler-Koch You're my only hope...

Wait I got it -

Help me H und K, because I suck and you hate me. :cool:

[Exiledviking]

I compared the HK USP 45 Expert recoil assembly to the HK45 assembly and they're not interchangeable. IIRC, the USP RSA is slightly shorter, around 0.30" shorter or so. Plus the forward end caps are different sizes.

SV650 with GSXR components, oh my! I'd love to have one. That 90 degree V-Twin is pure music to my ears. I miss my RC51 (not the ergonomics...).

[Shoresy]

It's gone through my head each and every time I've seen the thread title.

Same.

[entropy]

Late to the party, but my .02...

I’ve shot the USPc .40 LEM (heavy) for nearly 15 years now. As much as I hate the trigger...I love the trigger. It’s been BEYOND reliable for me. I also have one set up for medium LEM. Love that one even more. Recently purchased a USP .45 FS as a woods gun. (Thanks to GJM.) Set this up for medium pull as well. Although it has a fraction of the round count as the other two, it also has been dead nuts reliable. One reason I went with the USP is the ergos and similarity to the USPc. The grip, while obviously a bit bigger, feels the same. It’s familiar.

All that said, if I were forced to pick a single auto pistol to keep, it would be the HK. It’s not perfect, the trigger is a PITA to keep current on, but I have ZERO doubt it will still be chugging along for my great grandkids to shoot.

[Willard]

I have ZERO doubt it will still be chugging along for my great grandkids to shoot.

Not sure we have the kind of data required over the requisite time span to make that kind of assertion about polymer. Maybe, maybe not (UV deterioration, other failures).

[entropy]

Tongue in cheek.

[RevolverRob]

You know what will still be here in 200 years if it’s oiled and kept clean?

A 1911.

(This is my damn thread, I’ll make stupid comments if I want to).

Though, I deeply suspect that an HK USP may well be around for similar amount of time. Though I do worry about UV stability and solvent resistance for polymer frames.

[JRB]

You know what will still be here in 200 years if it’s oiled and kept clean?

A 1911.

(This is my damn thread, I’ll make stupid comments if I want to).

Though, I deeply suspect that an HK USP may well be around for similar amount of time. Though I do worry about UV stability and solvent resistance for polymer frames.

Not just 1911's; Beretta 92's too.



Relevant to this thread; Via a third party looking out for HK's on my behalf, I have the opportunity to buy a very minty low round count AE date coded USP Compact V1 in .40 with 3 12rnd mags for $400.

Am I an idiot for not immediately jumping on that?

If it were 9mm I'd just be talking about having bought it. I did notice that EFK makes a 9mm conversion barrel for the USPc but I haven't found anything conclusive on whether or not it works with the slide/breech face differences involved.

[Exiledviking]

Entropy, how did you set it up to be medium LEM?

[entropy]

I don’t have the part numbers handy right now, let me work on it.

[noguns]

No. But on gunbroker I've seen several HK s that are NOT 9mm going for really low prices. I'm tempted to get a hk45c because I don't need one at all. I'll justify the reasons later if I can score one for under $500.





Not just 1911's; Beretta 92's too.




Relevant to this thread; Via a third party looking out for HK's on my behalf, I have the opportunity to buy a very minty low round count AE date coded USP Compact V1 in .40 with 3 12rnd mags for $400.

Am I an idiot for not immediately jumping on that?

If it were 9mm I'd just be talking about having bought it. I did notice that EFK makes a 9mm conversion barrel for the USPc but I haven't found anything conclusive on whether or not it works with the slide/breech face differences involved.

[fatdog]

I did notice that EFK makes a 9mm conversion barrel for the USPc but I haven't found anything conclusive on whether or not it works with the slide/breech face differences involved.

I have an EFK 9mm barrel for my full size USP40 and one for my USP/c 40, both work fine, at least 1K rounds down range with no malfunctions in each platform. I do use the red 9mm spring recoil assembly in the USP/c and use the factory 9mm magazines with them in both platforms. My application is just for range practice, I won't carry either one with the EFK barrel as my CCW unless it were an emergency. But, sample of one.

[JRB]

No. But on gunbroker I've seen several HK s that are NOT 9mm going for really low prices. I'm tempted to get a hk45c because I don't need one at all. I'll justify the reasons later if I can score one for under $500.

I noticed the same on GB, which is how I scored a very near mint USP40 V1 with 5 magazines for $419 shipped, which seems like a hell of a deal even among the softer values found for .40 S&W. There has been a USP40C listed on GB for some time for $425+ shipping with one mag, which wasn't quite good enough to pique my interest.

Similarly, and the thing that started this whole game with HK pistols all over again, was considering a change for my daily carry and I stumbled on the late Todd G's 50,000 round test on the HK45. Which resulted in me buying an HK45C LEM shortly thereafter.


I have an EFK 9mm barrel for my full size USP40 and one for my USP/c 40, both work fine, at least 1K rounds down range with no malfunctions in each platform. I do use the red 9mm spring recoil assembly in the USP/c and use the factory 9mm magazines with them in both platforms. My application is just for range practice, I won't carry either one with the EFK barrel as my CCW unless it were an emergency. But, sample of one.

Hey, a sample size of one is still data! I'm glad to hear it runs well with the 9mm mags and recoil spring. Does it regulate to the existing sights well? And how was the wait time from EFK? About as they claimed? (60-90 days)
Thank you for chiming in!

[Benhou]

I have seen some affordable usp and uspc in .40 on gunbroker too.

[OlongJohnson]

Hey, a sample size of one is still data!

Technically, it's a datum.

[entropy]

Entropy, how did you set it up to be medium LEM?

Yea...I’m running late with my replies....

When I converted it to LEM from V1, I replaced the stock V1 parts with the following: (all parts from HKParts.net)

8.5lb Heavy Trigger Return Spring HKP-02265
11lb Reduced Power Hammer Spring. HKP-18147

I have not yet, but might, replace the stock FPB spring with the following:

Enhanced Firing Pin Block Spring. HKP-18110



I have put over 500 rounds of S&B 230gr hardball through it so far. Not a single misfire with the 11lb spring. I’ve read that one should prolly not go below that. The enhanced FPB lowers it another 1lb. I have one installed on a USPc and have had excellent luck with it. No misfires with all kinds of .40. I’m reluctant to shave another pound off a field pistol tho.

Hope this helps even if a bit late.

[OlongJohnson]

I suspect the Spiderman grip (my timing might be off, but I believe the HK45 was the first one) was intended to make the cross section of the grip closer to the 1911, with its smaller front and rear radii and curved scales that everybody seems to love so much - and nobody ever complains about not being flat-sided enough for them to control the recoil.

Used some free time this week to swing by an LGS, and they had an HK45 under glass. I checked it out. Found the same thing I find with many 1911s: The flatness/slimness of the grip plus its long fore-aft dimension meant that when I had a firm grip, I had minimal contact pressure on the side of the grip. The slightest relaxation, still firm, and I could actually see daylight between the side of the grip and my strong hand palm. Just the way it interacts with the size/length of my hand bones. Off my list of things to be more curious about. Back to my little USP world.

Surprisingly enough, having just commented yet again about how 1911s don't usually work well for me, I handled one of their (still available for $1899) V-Bobs and it actually did work really well. Better than the full-length frame on the Valor Commander next to it, which I have not thought was the case previously.

[awp_101]

Well, I'm gonna hold off for a bit, before I go crazy. The new-to-me FJ Cruiser is going to need a bit of work to be in tip-top shape and that's gonna sap the "fun" budget for awhile.

But of course, it should be fun all on it's own.

Any updates on a decision or are you like me and constantly distracted by other shiny objects?

[RevolverRob]

Any updates on a decision or are you like me and constantly distracted by other shiny objects?

Shiny objects distract me regularly and most of them are 1911 shaped.

I have not made a decision, but I have been sorely tempted multiple times by the sub-$700 HK45Cs out there on Gunbroker. I made up my mind to resist temptation for at least 6-months of 2020. In 2019 I actually did not buy a gun, but by Jan. 5, 2020, I had bought two...I made my resolution after that...:eek:

[awp_101]

Shiny objects distract me regularly and most of them are 1911 shaped.

I have not made a decision, but I have been sorely tempted multiple times by the sub-$700 HK45Cs out there on Gunbroker.

Understood. Oddly enough, this latest bout of .45itus I'm afflicted with is revolving around M&Ps and HKs. Errr, so to speak...

[Brian T]

Shiny objects distract me regularly and most of them are 1911 shaped.

I have not made a decision, but I have been sorely tempted multiple times by the sub-$700 HK45Cs out there on Gunbroker. I made up my mind to resist temptation for at least 6-months of 2020. In 2019 I actually did not buy a gun, but by Jan. 5, 2020, I had bought two...I made my resolution after that...:eek:

If you're still interested in my P2000v2 with all those mags, holla.;)

[GOTURBACK]

There was a nice hk45c on ar15 for $550.00

[ffhounddog]

I am looking for more p2000 mags...for my 4 p2000v3 in 9mm and I am carrying a p2000 in 40 a v2 due to a lot of 180 Winchester Rangers available to me right now.

[CCT125US]

I am looking for more p2000 mags...for my 4 p2000v3 in 9mm and I am carrying a p2000 in 40 a v2 due to a lot of 180 Winchester Rangers available to me right now.

Tempted to dig into my stock, but I will offer a link to Grab A Gun instead.

https://grabagun.com/heckler-and-koch-hk-usa-mag-p2000-usp9-cmpct-9mm-13rd.html

[javemtr]

I recommend the Teufelshund Tactical YouTube channel to everyone interested in HK. He has started putting out very informative videos, for example this one about LEM:

https://youtu.be/Op4y3HrtJa0

[javemtr]

Edit: double tap due to connection issues. Mods, please remove!

[RevolverRob]

Okay, gonna bring this one up.

Where am I at - loving my 1911s, but I’ve been doing a lot more hiking with the wife and a lot more outdoors stuff in general. I’m getting tired of an all steel gun on my belt. I think I need a plastic gun to help shed some weight. And I don’t want to worry about it in terms of reliability and I’m longing for that paddle mag release.

Currently sort of waffling between a USP9 and setting it up match hybrid LEM without match trigger or getting on the VP9 bandwagon (banned wagon?). USP9s are trading at kind of ridiculous prices right now (1k+). Where as VP9s (Pre-2020 update) are around 5-6 hundo. For the price of one USP9, I could get a VP9 fullsize and a VP9SK which is tempting.

I know from the P30 foray - I can make the spiderman grips work, I may need to just need to shave the back strap some.

—

I’m off the TDA wagon for now, and focused on either a light-match-esque LEM or striker.

[45dotACP]

Okay, gonna bring this one up.

Where am I at - loving my 1911s, but I’ve been doing a lot more hiking with the wife and a lot more outdoors stuff in general. I’m getting tired of an all steel gun on my belt. I think I need a plastic gun to help shed some weight. And I don’t want to worry about it in terms of reliability and I’m longing for that paddle mag release.

Currently sort of waffling between a USP9 and setting it up match hybrid LEM without match trigger or getting on the VP9 bandwagon (banned wagon?). USP9s are trading at kind of ridiculous prices right now (1k+). Where as VP9s (Pre-2020 update) are around 5-6 hundo. For the price of one USP9, I could get a VP9 fullsize and a VP9SK which is tempting.

I know from the P30 foray - I can make the spiderman grips work, I may need to just need to shave the back strap some.

—

I’m off the TDA wagon for now, and focused on either a light-match-esque LEM or striker.Bruh I've been on the same trip lately. Granted my answer was the CZ P-07 but yeah lugging a government model was getting a bit tiresome.

The only other thing I can contribute is to say the VP9 I shot was awesome. If you're looking for 1911-esque accuracy from a plastic gun, that's probably one of the better choices.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

Bruh I've been on the same trip lately. Granted my answer was the CZ P-07 but yeah lugging a government model was getting a bit tiresome.

The only other thing I can contribute is to say the VP9 I shot was awesome. If you're looking for 1911-esque accuracy from a plastic gun, that's probably one of the better choices.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

I saw you jumped on the P07 train and that one has been tempting, but I'm really wanting the paddle mag release, because it works so well for me. Otherwise, I'd probably get a P01 Omega.

Of course, I could get a RRA Poly...or wait for the DWX Compact - but none of those preclude me from getting an HK too.

If HK would release the thumb safety VP9 - we'd finally have the double-stack, striker fired, polymer, 1911 everyone wants...:(

[Grey]

If you arent setting it for 45 super then you hate GJM. An outdoor gun should automatically be in 45 super, you even had a bear sighting. COME ON MAN.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[SecondsCount]

No argument from me. The VP9 is my favorite striker action pistol to shoot.

[OlongJohnson]

HK45 FS. It's kinda like a 1911. You can even run it C1 if you want. They were pretty cheap not that long ago.

[RevolverRob]

I’m not likely to run into a bear in Chicagoland, unless one escapes from the zoo, or I go to a football game. In fact a coyote is probably the biggest 4-legged predator I’ll come into contact with. Since January the largest live animal we’ve had a run in with was a vole...

If I go back west for field work, that could change. But the next 2’ish years is likely to find me in a lab with tadpoles As my study organism...

[HCM]

HK45 FS. It's kinda like a 1911. You can even run it C1 if you want. They were pretty cheap not that long ago.

HK45C.

[Doc_Glock]

HK45C.

I wish I had a need for that caliber because that would be the gun.

Rob: get a VP9 and drive on. Unless you want LEM then back to P30.

[Robinson]

Where am I at - loving my 1911s, but I’ve been doing a lot more hiking with the wife and a lot more outdoors stuff in general. I’m getting tired of an all steel gun on my belt. I think I need a plastic gun to help shed some weight.

Lightweight Commanders are a thing. In fact, I am in the process of vetting a new one that I intend to use for my carry gun assuming the trial goes well (which I expect).

[RevolverRob]

HK45C.

I shouldn't listen to you. 9mm - more ammo! Cheaper!


I wish I had a need for that caliber because that would be the gun.

Rob: get a VP9 and drive on. Unless you want LEM then back to P30.

I know I know! 9mm.

BUT...I already have two .45s and...I'm setup to reload .45. And...I have a bunch of poly-coated 230-grain RNs on the way from Missouri Bullet Co...and a pound of 3N38 that basically I'm just using to load .45 at this stage (unless I figure out a good loading of it for 300BLK)....And I have a couple of thousand large pistol primers.

Anyways, I guess I'm saying - being .45 isn't the barrier for me. I just keep thinking, "Multiple badguy gun."...But I mean...a HK45C with 8+1 and then a 10-round elephant foot spare would be better than the 7+1 and 7 or 8 round mag I'm carrying with a full size 1911 right now.


Lightweight Commanders are a thing. In fact, I am in the process of vetting a new one that I intend to use for my carry gun assuming the trial goes well (which I expect).

Indeed and a CCO is on my short list. But I keep thinking I should have a polymer gun I don't care about. That said, the HK45C Tactical...gives me a 4.5" barrel in a package that is almost Officer sized...by comparison. I could go C'n'L or LEM...and get as close to a match hybrid LEM as you can get in a non-USP pistol.
__

The biggest thing that was working against the HK45C for me for the past bit has been that it's difficult to get a light on it. It appears to my eye - that the Olight Valkyrie actually mounts to the HK45C rail without an issue. I would don't usually carry a pistol with a light attached, but I like to have a light on hand for nightstand/travel. The Olight would fill that niche for me.

[rayrevolver]

The biggest thing that was working against the HK45C for me for the past bit has been that it's difficult to get a light on it. It appears to my eye - that the Olight Valkyrie actually mounts to the HK45C rail without an issue. I would don't usually carry a pistol with a light attached, but I like to have a light on hand for nightstand/travel. The Olight would fill that niche for me.

This fits as well. Midway had them on sale for $50 a few months ago. I have one and it works. I also posted in the another thread about a company in Hong Kong selling an X300 adapter.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019978141

[MGW]

All the 45C’s I’ve owned would eat anything including light 200 grain SWC reloads. I had a LEM model for a while but couldn’t rap my head around that trigger at the time and dumped it. Pretty sure 10-8 rear sights work with the factory tritium front. If you want a beater light weight 45 caliber pistol that works they’re pretty hard to beat.

[CCT125US]

May have posted this around here before.

My reasons below are the result of measured improvement, for me. My reasons certainly may not be your reasons. For example, WML capability, I don't carry with it mounted, but I do put it on before I go to bed. I don't want to unlock a safe and switch guns.... Therefore WML capability is important to me.

Reasons for switching to the P2000.

Compared to P30 v1:
With a Night Fision FS, and Trijicon RS, the accuracy is equal to the P30. Flat sides prevent "swimming" during recoil, provides better tracking freestyle, LHO/RHO. Reduced weight and size.

Compared to USP9c v7:
Slightly longer sight radius, barrel, ambi slide release, and easier WML capability. More sight options. Contoured rear slide profile conceals better, Reduced weight.

[Sd408]

In terms of CCW, do you guys prefer the P2000SK or P2000? I used to have a P2000 but sold it; now im debating about getting either one but not sure if the subcompact would be better since the P2000 is already not a big gun anyways.

[Hunter Rose]

HK45 Compacts are cool and I love my HK USP 45 Compact, but they're pretty damn close in size to the P30. To me 8+1 vs 17+1 in the same sized gun is a no-brainer.

If you want .45 Auto, USP Fullsize is the way to go. 12+1 is a lot more palatable to me.

[GJM]

I think a P2000 with flat base plates is so close to SK size that it argues for the P2000.

An HK45C will reliably launch Super ammo if that matters. The USP FS and HK45C are my two larger caliber field guns.

[falar]

I could never gain interest in the HK45 since the capacity was lowered from the USP.

There are a lot of "doublestack" .45s that don't add enough capacity to warrant interest over a 1911 like this---the CZ 97, P227, Tanfoglio .45s. At 10 rounds it just doesn't seem like a worthwhile increase.

I wish they would have come out with a jet funnel and jet funnel mags for the USP .45.

[JRB]

I could never gain interest in the HK45 since the capacity was lowered from the USP.

There are a lot of "doublestack" .45s that don't add enough capacity to warrant interest over a 1911 like this---the CZ 97, P227, Tanfoglio .45s. At 10 rounds it just doesn't seem like a worthwhile increase.

I wish they would have come out with a jet funnel and jet funnel mags for the USP .45.

HK parts sells a +5 mag extension for the USP45. I'm not sure how reliable they are but the idea is pretty tempting.

As an interesting aside, while tinkering with my 10mm USP project I discovered that an unmodified HK45 10 round magazine holds 16 rounds of 10mm. That has me dreaming of an HK45 or HK45C in 10mm, naturally.

GJM, thank you for chiming in here! How much 45 Super have you put through your HK45C? Does the POI shift at all with 45 Super?

[GJM]

HK parts sells a +5 mag extension for the USP45. I'm not sure how reliable they are but the idea is pretty tempting.

As an interesting aside, while tinkering with my 10mm USP project I discovered that an unmodified HK45 10 round magazine holds 16 rounds of 10mm. That has me dreaming of an HK45 or HK45C in 10mm, naturally.

GJM, thank you for chiming in here! How much 45 Super have you put through your HK45C? Does the POI shift at all with 45 Super?

I have vetted a half dozen HK45C pistols with Super ammo, first with Buffalo Bore FMJ, but then with the Underwood Lehigh Super load. Not a single stoppage. Probably several hundred rounds a pistol initially, now less. There is a compromise between vetting and beating up the pistols.

Interestingly, the USP C 45 was not reliable with Super loads.

POI was close enough at 25 not to be a factor.

I am not a fan of the HK Parts P30/VP9 extensions.

[Clusterfrack]

At a USPSA match on Sat there was a new female shooter with a VP9. She was accurate, and not super slow. But she was very weak and as the match progressed she got tired and limp wristed constantly. This caused double feeds, repeatedly. I have heard the VP9 recommended over a Glock 19 for weaker individuals with poor recoil control, but evidently this gun isn't immune to limp-wristing malfunctions. (She was using factory FMJ, so not an ammo problem.)

[SecondsCount]

At a USPSA match on Sat there was a new female shooter with a VP9. She was accurate, and not super slow. But she was very weak and as the match progressed she got tired and limp wristed constantly. This caused double feeds, repeatedly. I have heard the VP9 recommended over a Glock 19 for weaker individuals with poor recoil control, but evidently this gun isn't immune to limp-wristing malfunctions. (She was using factory FMJ, so not an ammo problem.)

It's a problem with most polymer framed autos. Alloy and steel framed guns run better because there is more mass.

[Clusterfrack]

It's a problem with most polymer framed autos. Alloy and steel framed guns run better because there is more mass.

Agree! But I'm not sure this woman could have held a Shadow2 up long enough to complete a stage :D

[RevolverRob]

May have posted this around here before.

My reasons below are the result of measured improvement, for me. My reasons certainly may not be your reasons. For example, WML capability, I don't carry with it mounted, but I do put it on before I go to bed. I don't want to unlock a safe and switch guns.... Therefore WML capability is important to me.

Reasons for switching to the P2000.

Compared to P30 v1:
With a Night Fision FS, and Trijicon RS, the accuracy is equal to the P30. Flat sides prevent "swimming" during recoil, provides better tracking freestyle, LHO/RHO. Reduced weight and size.

Compared to USP9c v7:
Slightly longer sight radius, barrel, ambi slide release, and easier WML capability. More sight options. Contoured rear slide profile conceals better, Reduced weight.

Any preferences on the various LEM variants in the P2000?

I found the P30 "wiggled" in my hands when shooting too. Especially WHO and that resulted in a lot of shifting my grip to maintain good control on the gun.


HK45 Compacts are cool and I love my HK USP 45 Compact, but they're pretty damn close in size to the P30. To me 8+1 vs 17+1 in the same sized gun is a no-brainer.

If you want .45 Auto, USP Fullsize is the way to go. 12+1 is a lot more palatable to me.

True, but still a HK45C is smaller than a Government Model 1911, which is my default right now. I'm not too concerned over capacity.


An HK45C will reliably launch Super ammo if that matters. The USP FS and HK45C are my two larger caliber field guns.

It's probably doesn't matter right now. I keep wanting to do field work on Prince of Wales Island in Alaska, which to my understanding has one of (if not the) highest density of black bears on the planet. Of course, black bears are smaller than grizzlies and avoid people more. But any field work would obviously be done at the height of the active season for bears...

But that work is pretty far down the priority list and may not come to fruition for years (if ever, depending on funding and employment). So, it's not a (good) reason to justify a .45Super launcher right now.

[2xAGM114]

I am not a fan of the HK Parts P30/VP9 extensions.

Seconded. I've purchased every variant of mag extension from HK Parts. All of them will inevitably pinch the skin on the pinky finger that protrudes through the seam between the mag and the extension. At $20 per + shipping, I have a small fortune of these which are useless.

[CCT125US]

Any preferences on the various LEM variants in the P2000?

I've settled on the v2 with light FPBS. Ran the v1 (light TRS) for a bit, and I found myself not rowing through the wall. Accuracy was not affected at 50 yards, by going to the LTRS, but 2" circles at 7 yards sometimes got the trigger snatched as it was so easy to run it to the wall.

[Salamander]

In terms of CCW, do you guys prefer the P2000SK or P2000? I used to have a P2000 but sold it; now im debating about getting either one but not sure if the subcompact would be better since the P2000 is already not a big gun anyways.

Having carried both quite a bit over the past 10+ years, most of the time and for most purposes I prefer the P2000. But there isn't all that much difference. The sk is very slightly easier to conceal and is fine for in town use. Where distances might be longer I like the P2000.

The past few years I've been moving away from P-series and toward USP series, but that's a personal thing that I'll explain when there's a bit more time and I'm caught up from todays end of fiscal year crunch.

[Salamander]

I’m not likely to run into a bear in Chicagoland, unless one escapes from the zoo, or I go to a football game. In fact a coyote is probably the biggest 4-legged predator I’ll come into contact with. Since January the largest live animal we’ve had a run in with was a vole...

If I go back west for field work, that could change. But the next 2’ish years is likely to find me in a lab with tadpoles As my study organism...

Chicagoland? Field work? Amphibians? I'm wondering how many people we know in common... although I left there a while ago.

[rayrevolver]

I am very impressed with this pistol. The sights, trigger, everything is better than my previous USP9T (HM LEM) and P30L (Light LEM). If HK made this in 9mm that would be fantastic!

Not sure I trust Mr. Crimson Trace over the venerable X300, but it looks like this below. My next range session I plan to keep the light on and see if it flickers etc while shooting.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50068328146_ba42633ba8_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jhngB1)

[Salamander]

Some interesting HK trigger info:

I was just tinkering with a recently acquired USPc 9. Out of the box the SA trigger pull wasn't too bad, 3lb 11oz and some barely perceptible grittiness. DA was not so great though, 10lb 8oz and rough.

My older USPc 45 has a nice DA/SA trigger, very smooth... described by an elderly ex-PPC shooter and federal agency firearms instructor friend as "not bad" which from him is a compliment. I have a nickel sear spring and match hammer spring in that one plus about 2,000 rounds downrange and a bunch of dry fire. So to see how much is use and how much is parts, I placed an order with HK last week and the box arrived today. Nickel sear spring and match hammer spring (215694) installed just now, about a 15 minute effort and about $14 of factory parts.

The DA pull on the USPc 9 now comes in at 6lb 15oz, and SA at about 3lb. Both are actually a bit lighter than the 45. The pull is much smoother in DA, and crisp in SA. Distinct improvement, and this pistol only has 70 rounds through it so I expect it may smooth out even a bit more over time.