Grip Strength, Gender, and Shooting Performance

[Eyesquared]

In years past, the relationship between grip strength and pistol shooting performance has been discussed at length on this forum. I think the general consensus was that the more strength the better, and that you can only go so far without above average grip strength (for a male). I don't think a lot of people would have said "You can make top 16 at production nationals, with average male grip strength." There was also some discussion about how even the top female USPSA shooters weren't particularly competitive with the top male GMs at national-level matches (finishing at around 65-75% of the winner), which could be attributed in part to a grip strength disparity.

This year, both Justine Williams (who is still a junior shooter) and Ashley Rheuark placed in the top 16 at USPSA Production nationals (13th and 14th respectively), beating out some well known shooters like Phil Strader, BJ Norris, Shannon Smith, Matt Hopkins, etc. I don't know how their grip strength compares to the top male GMs, but I suspect they outperformed many shooters who were physically stronger. All this has me thinking that maybe you don't need to close a #2 CoC to be competitive in an action pistol sport, although it might not hurt either.

Thoughts?

[Clusterfrack]

Great topic. My thinking on this has evolved significantly over the last few years. Most of the instructors I have studied with emphasized the importance of the CRUSH grip with the support hand. Crushing the gun was supposed to reduce muzzle flip and isolate the sights from the trigger press.

However, I am now convinced that beyond a minimum level, a crush grip is not required. Relaxing my grip from "max crush" to "tight enough" has allowed me significantly improve my shooting, reduce fatigue, and has largely eliminated my chronic elbow and arm pain issues.

I grip the gun hard enough to keep it from moving inside my hands during recoil, and have developed better trigger control that doesn't move the gun. As well, I have improved my wrist tension, elbow mechanics, and stance. I'm still gripping the gun hard enough that I have to stop and rest during a long dryfire session. Like a very firm handshake.

Hwansik Kim has an excellent discussion of grip strength and recoil management (https://www.practicalshootingtraininggroup.com/topic/hand-and-wrist-separation-exercise/), but it's behind a paywall.

[Gray222]

While I don't game, I do shoot pistols - a lot.

One thing I have experienced over the years is figuring out exactly what type of grip is most necessary for effectively using a pistol. The main factor has always been consistency. Years ago there was a trend of "crushing" the gun for the sake of grip and then that went away because it wasn't working (and largely doesn't). Consistently putting pressure on the grip of a pistol to provide you with the same, expected, results is the best practice in my opinion.

For example, when shooting two hand freestyle at 25 yards for accuracy, I have found that using the forward thumb of your non-trigger hand to push slightly on the frame in a 45° angel while you are pressing the trigger provides a huge accuracy benefit. I have consistently seen improvement in anyone whose tried this and it has nothing to do with crushing grip strength.

The trick, in my opinion, is to find your personal level of grip required for pistol shooting and then work to evolve that. It's never completely loose or crushing the grip, it's usually somewhere just tighter than center.

[Greg]

Did the women have fewer penalties because they were more accurate? That would be my SWAG on their placement.

I still think training hand and forearm strength is worthwhile. However hard you wish to grip the pistol, being stronger means you’ll achieve that at a lower % of maximum effort.

[blues]

I agree with above comments. I train my grip a couple of times a week with deadlifts, Ivanko Gripper, and bands for extension exercises.

Personally, I think the crush grip on the gun is overstated and overkill. A good strong grip without trying to overdo it seems to work better for me.

I'm not trying to squeeze blood from a stone.

[BigD]

. All this has me thinking that maybe you don't need to close a #2 CoC to be competitive in an action pistol sport, although it might not hurt either.

Thoughts?

Who said this in the first place?

Closing a #2 is not equal to “above average strength.” It’s more like “well above average strength”. I reckon there’s many people in the top 16 that can’t close a #2.

I’d just rephrase the last sentence to say “maybe you don’t need above average strength to be competitive.” Cause you clearly don’t need well above average strength, judging by the men in the top 16.

———-

[txdpd]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17186303/


Mean maximal hand-grip strength showed the expected clear difference between men (541 N) and women (329 N). Less expected was the gender related distribution of hand-grip strength: 90% of females produced less force than 95% of males. Though female athletes were significantly stronger (444 N) than their untrained female counterparts, this value corresponded to only the 25th percentile of the male subjects.

More men have closed a COC number 4 gripper than women have closed a number 2. I think grip is highly overrated, things like closing a No.2 gripper as an arbitrary standard, you're not even using a crush grip in shooting, it's a support grip. If grip was nearly as important as some guys make it out to be, there's no explanation for how women shoot as well as they do. Grip is important, but more importantly, unlike genetics it's something that we have control over. If there's one thing we are good at it's narrowing a broad spectrum of athletic performance down to a single factor. On a gun forum, everyone would recognize that building a 20 inch neck isn't going to make me a Formula 1 driver, what does that have to do with being born a supercomputer brain when it comes to processing visual information? Same with shooting. How are you going to know if you don't try. There's a smaller gap between an elite performer and an average Joe that tries to perform at an elite level, than an average Joe that tries and an average Joe that's content on being average.

IMO, the biggest difference is genetic. In general men's and women's brains process information differently. Women are more risk adverse, see Greg's comment on scoring. Women are better at pattern recognition. Men pick up on movement quicker, have better spatial awareness, and have better eye hand coordination. Men have more upper body mass and body mass in general, this is where grip comes into play, how that body mass is leveraged to control recoil.

[willie]

Since the early teen years I was considered a good handgun shot. A contributing factor was grip strength. From age 14 I exercised with hand grips. Later during the teen years my dad had me unloading box cars of 100 pound sacks of oil field drilling chemicals. I developed extreme grip strength and think that this trait greatly assisted me in my study of double action shooting. I have seen many poor triggers of various types but never saw one I could not manage. These comments reflect my experience. I will quickly add that there is most likely some undetermined level of minimum grip strength needed for accurate handgun shooting. However, a bone crushing grip is not necessary.

[Eyesquared]

Did the women have fewer penalties because they were more accurate? That would be my SWAG on their placement.

I still think training hand and forearm strength is worthwhile. However hard you wish to grip the pistol, being stronger means you’ll achieve that at a lower % of maximum effort.

In a sport like USPSA it's really not easy to answer if they placed where they did because of accuracy, since it's a combination of a lot of things. From looking at the results on Practiscore, Justine Williams shot a fast time, not the fastest at the match but faster than almost anyone who placed below her. Ashley Rheuark shot a very accurate match in a competitive time, with ~80% As, no misses, no no-shoots, and only 3 Ds.

I agree that training hand strength is still beneficial but I think training with grippers is getting moved significantly lower down my personal list of priorities. Going forward I am experimenting with some of Hwansik Kim's recoil control ideas (he has a great demonstration that shows how you can control recoil well with relatively little effort, and reduce muzzle dip as the slide comes back into battery) and I'm just going to consider 30 minutes of dry fire per day enough grip work for the time being.

[John Hearne]

My take is that you need at least 100 lbs of crush grip strength to shoot well. My sample size isn't huge but I have a grip strength measuring device and 100 lbs seems to be the magic number. This mirrors the same finding that Karl Rehn reached. I haven't looked at female shooters but I'm pretty sure that Karl said 80 lbs for women.

If you google for research articles on the topic, using police academy candidates, then you find research that can't find a significant relationship between shooting scores and grip strength. I attribute this to several factors. First, the typical police qualification course is a poor metric of shooting ability. It's kind of like saying if you can run 1.5 miles in 60 minutes then you "pass." If you used that same "passing" standard, you'd find no correlation between fitness and police work. Second, it is important to be able to isolate trigger finger movement from gripping with the rest of the fingers. I suspect that some police recruits were particularly well muscled, giving them high grip strength numbers but they had never developed the necessary separation between trigger finger and the rest of the hand.

I think that 100 lbs of crush grip strength in males is a minimal pre-requisite for shooting well. Once you reach 100 lbs, subsequent increases don't yield corresponding improvements in shooting.

[gomerpyle]

Great topic. My thinking on this has evolved significantly over the last few years. Most of the instructors I have studied with emphasized the importance of the CRUSH grip with the support hand. Crushing the gun was supposed to reduce muzzle flip and isolate the sights from the trigger press.

However, I am now convinced that beyond a minimum level, a crush grip is not required. Relaxing my grip from "max crush" to "tight enough" has allowed me significantly improve my shooting, reduce fatigue, and has largely eliminated my chronic elbow and arm pain issues.

I grip the gun hard enough to keep it from moving inside my hands during recoil, and have developed better trigger control that doesn't move the gun. As well, I have improved my wrist tension, elbow mechanics, and stance. I'm still gripping the gun hard enough that I have to stop and rest during a long dryfire session. Like a very firm handshake.

Hwansik Kim has an excellent discussion of grip strength and recoil management (https://www.practicalshootingtraininggroup.com/topic/hand-and-wrist-separation-exercise/), but it's behind a paywall.

The late Ron Avery also covers this - look up pliable hands on youtube, as well as vectors of force.

[GJM]

The more I shoot, the more I realize what I do not understand about shooting.

For USPSA, which is different than, for example bullseye, athleticism helps. I suspect athleticism is related to grip strength, meaning the more athletic the more likely one is to be stronger. So is it the grip strength or the overall athleticism this is at work?

For some years, I have been convinced support hand strength and technique is more important than your strong hand. Lately, at least with a Glock, I believe my strong hand wrist angle and tension is more important for me than my support hand.

[gomerpyle]

The more I shoot, the more I realize what I do not understand about shooting.

For USPSA, which is different than, for example bullseye, athleticism helps. I suspect athleticism is related to grip strength, meaning the more athletic the more likely one is to be stronger. So is it the grip strength or the overall athleticism this is at work?

For some years, I have been convinced support hand strength and technique is more important than your strong hand. Lately, at least with a Glock, I believe my strong hand wrist angle and tension is more important for me than my support hand.

A propos athleticism and grip: I can't recall where I read it, but I do recall a post where one way to diagnose the overall health of an individual is grip strength or lack thereof.

Also, Frank Proctor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aLzGZ9MHxI&t=194s) does believe Strong hand plays a larger role in grip than support hand.....check out the 3:57 mark.

[Clobbersaurus]

The more I shoot, the more I realize what I do not understand about shooting.

Yep, 100%.

I am less concerned with building grip strength; I am quite confident most able bodied adults have the required grip strength to adequately mitigate the recoil impulse of most pistols. What I do think they lack, is the ability to maintain grip pressure throughout the entire string of fire.

That’s pretty important, and it requires some training, focus, tinkering and self analysis. Because everyone grips the gun differently, discussion of amount of grip pressure and crush grip vs push pull...etc, etc... is hard for most to even understand. Students of the pistol tend to benefit better from such discussions, because they have played with their grip, but for most, the discussion is lost on them.

IMO, grip texture matters almost as much as grip pressure, but that is a discussion for a different thread maybe.

[gomerpyle]

My take is that you need at least 100 lbs of crush grip strength to shoot well. My sample size isn't huge but I have a grip strength measuring device and 100 lbs seems to be the magic number. This mirrors the same finding that Karl Rehn reached. I haven't looked at female shooters but I'm pretty sure that Karl said 80 lbs for women.

If you google for research articles on the topic, using police academy candidates, then you find research that can't find a significant relationship between shooting scores and grip strength. I attribute this to several factors. First, the typical police qualification course is a poor metric of shooting ability. It's kind of like saying if you can run 1.5 miles in 60 minutes then you "pass." If you used that same "passing" standard, you'd find no correlation between fitness and police work. Second, it is important to be able to isolate trigger finger movement from gripping with the rest of the fingers. I suspect that some police recruits were particularly well muscled, giving them high grip strength numbers but they had never developed the necessary separation between trigger finger and the rest of the hand.

I think that 100 lbs of crush grip strength in males is a minimal pre-requisite for shooting well. Once you reach 100 lbs, subsequent increases don't yield corresponding improvements in shooting.

Charlie Perez/Big Panda also came to this conclusion. he had conducted a survey of top shooters and had measured their grip strength.... check out this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=449&v=7SG01ZvkIwY&feature=emb_logo) too. the 6:46 mark onwards is especially revealing.....

Of interest to note - he was also a student of Ron Avery. All paths seem to lead to Ron Avery....

[guymontag]

I once thought that uber strength would be necessary for action pistol sports - how many have heard of Robert V’s or Jerry M’s grip strength?... but then after hearing a podcast with the greatest action pistol shooter in the world (Eric G) where he says he doesn’t really use hand strength but an isometric push pull - you gotta wonder!

Oh and read Dan John’s strength standards- his expected standards and his game changer standards are quite attainable.

[willie]

When exercising with V shaped devices under spring pressure, I inverted the device and then gripped it with 4 fingers. My trigger finger remained independent and did not engage. This tip came from Bill McMillan, a once famous bullseye shooter.

[runcible]

Literal hand strength as a contributor or detractor to shooting performance is not a simple question.

Shooters taught to grip and shoot primarily through the use of their literal hand-strength (e.g. forearm and thumb muscles) will always have a greater delta when performing at-speed between males and females, and the inathletic vs the athletic. Such methodology works well-enough for many, but that doesn't necessarily associate with them being at their best. Many perform incredibly well in-spite of such methodology, and not because of it.

Shooters taught to grip and shoot in a more whole-bodied manner, in which their shooting grip recruits the pectoral and trapezius muscles, and with an athletic stance seamlessly integrated from ground-contact to pressing trigger-finger; will have a much smaller delta and a greater difficulty in identifying the limiting factors at-hand. Details like accommodative (or, focal) ability, cognitive ability to recognize "good enough (sight picture) to press (the trigger)," and self-awareness of transitional periods really come into play then - and they are much harder to diagnose and address at any scale beyond one-on-one.

Transitional periods - such as when shooting on the move and the stance splits between movement necessities (hip orientation) and compromising shooting requirements (shoulder orientation), when accelerating out of the static or decelerating from movement, when shifting targets (laterally and longitudinally - if not vertically as well), or when shifting modalities (e.g. carry this, apply that (e.g. TQ), light to dark or dark to light, confined spaces to open spaces) - all can steal time from a shooter's final endsum of a run. But, outside of such shooting sports, time is not always the most prominent metric in play; though, to emphasize, I don't speak down to the shooting sports in the least when I say this, and the shooting world should be grateful for their existence and influence upon the craft.

Pardon the self-referencing:

Re: grip; https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?34335-Rolling-elbows-up-and-in&p=824362&viewfull=1#post824362
and; https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?33553-quot-THAT-S-What-You-re-Talking-About!-quot&p=817193&viewfull=1#post817193

Re : stance; https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39023-Stance&p=944399&viewfull=1#post944399

[Jeff S.]

When I get in the shooting zone and am doing my best, I’m not really thinking about grip (or recoil for that matter). My hands and wrists sort of absorb the recoil and the sights come right back down where they started. In my mind, it’s akin to catching a football with some heat behind it: you don’t reach out with rigid hands, but with soft hands.

[BigD]

I think grip is highly overrated, things like closing a No.2 gripper as an arbitrary standard, you're not even using a crush grip in shooting, it's a support grip.



This is true. Grippers are crush grip, and highly technical, believe it or not. I’d argue that building your open hand grip (like you’d use on a fat bar deadlift) and your pinch grip (like pinching two 35lb Olympic plates together and picking them up) are probably more useful than working on grippers. If you just want an overall strong grip, grippers are not the best approach. Check out gripboard.com or the grip strength subreddit for advice. They won’t tell you to go buy a bunch of grippers if your goal is well-rounded, useful hand strength with carryover to the real world. But grippers are fun.



A propos athleticism and grip: I can't recall where I read it, but I do recall a post where one way to diagnose the overall health of an individual is grip strength or lack thereof.

Also, Frank Proctor (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aLzGZ9MHxI&t=194s) does believe Strong hand plays a larger role in grip than support hand.....check out the 3:57 mark.

You may be thinking of multiple studies that showed a correlation between grip strength and life expectancy. Here’s one article. https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1IM1TA

But grip strength is just a stand in for overall strength. I’m sure if they had measured overhead press the stronger people would have longer lifespan. Just working your grip isn’t going to add years to your life.

——-

We are making some leaps (having a strong grip doesn’t help) just because two presumably relatively weak individuals finished 13th and 14th. If they had stronger grips, isn’t it possible that they would have finished higher?

Strength can only be an enabler. It’s not a disabler. Clearly you dont need get into the world of grip sport and develop a world class grip, but for untrained individuals bumping up your grip strength is low hanging fruit. You can make strides quickly. Plate curls, fatbar deadlifts, plate pinches and an adjustable Ivanko Super Gripper will go a long way.

[AKDoug]

I once thought that uber strength would be necessary for action pistol sports - how many have heard of Robert V’s or Jerry M’s grip strength?... but then after hearing a podcast with the greatest action pistol shooter in the world (Eric G) where he says he doesn’t really use hand strength but an isometric push pull - you gotta wonder!

Oh and read Dan John’s strength standards- his expected standards and his game changer standards are quite attainable. I have shook Jerry M's hand. Not only does he have giant hands, they are incredibly strong. I'm no wimp, but he could have easily hurt me if he wanted to.

[YVK]

This year, both Justine Williams (who is still a junior shooter) and Ashley Rheuark placed in the top 16 at USPSA Production nationals (13th and 14th respectively), beating out some well known shooters like Phil Strader, BJ Norris, Shannon Smith, Matt Hopkins, etc. I don't know how their grip strength compares to the top male GMs, but I suspect they outperformed many shooters who were physically stronger. All this has me thinking that maybe you don't need to close a #2 CoC to be competitive in an action pistol sport, although it might not hurt either.

Thoughts?

First, if you've not seen Justine, Jalice or Ashley shoot in matches, it is a sight to behold. If you've seen them, then you know how fast they move, how fearless they are in shooting on the move and in awkward spaces, how great their entries and exits and transitions are, etc, etc - basically, everything that determines match placement over raw split speed. Last hi-cap Nationals I saw Justine shoot a medium distance target falling out from the activator plate (a raised stand) towards the next array - I didn't see anyone from two all male super-squads attempt that.

Second, some of the core TPC techniques that are so effective in controlling them guns fit small-handed shooters better. For example, the quarter panel technique, which is really awesome, does make a biomechanical sense, and requires zero physical strength, is much easier to execute if one's hands are small.

[gomerpyle]

....the quarter panel technique, which is really awesome, does make a biomechanical sense, and requires zero physical strength, is much easier to execute if one's hands are small.

You previously wrote (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?30554-Tactical-Performance-Center-Handgun-Mastery-class/page7): "A point to conclude on: I didn't think that a quarter panel technique was a big deal."

Have you reconsidered? Im going back and forth between the quarter panel technique and crushing with my support hand, and would love to hear what you think....

[YVK]

I think it is a valuable technique that makes a ton of sense mechanically. My problem with it is that I can't execute it, barely with a slow deliberate placing of my hands on a gun and never with a speed draw. The size of my hands, the ergos of my guns, where my strong hand goes on a gun all lead to inability to make my support hand to go around that corner. Given that I get decent results when I do the gripping correctly even without the quarter panel, I still think that it is not a bid deal. I would've preferred to be able to do it, I think I wouldn't have had to grip as hard as I try now, but I can't and I don't have much concerns about.
My current day-to-day support grip strength is 120 lbs, as measured on a medical equipment and using the agreed on technique. I estimated Ben's grip strength (not his max, his gun gripping strength) at about maybe 140. I do grip strength exercises very carefully, making sure to avoid overuse, and I started to shoot the doubles drill with a 45 ACP as an adjunct to grip strength development. Based what I see on my sights/dots, I am still in a crush the grip camp, I just don't think that crushing means 2.5 CoC effort.

[CCT125US]

..... as measured on a medical equipment and using the agreed on technique.

What is the agreed on technique?

[YVK]

The arm hangs relaxed alongside the body, then the elbow is flexed 90 degrees so the fist points forward, then grip, hold for a couple of secs, release. We use it to assess for frailty.

[GJM]

I think it is a valuable technique that makes a ton of sense mechanically. My problem with it is that I can't execute it, barely with a slow deliberate placing of my hands on a gun and never with a speed draw. The size of my hands, the ergos of my guns, where my strong hand goes on a gun all lead to inability to make my support hand to go around that corner. Given that I get decent results when I do the gripping correctly even without the quarter panel, I still think that it is not a bid deal. I would've preferred to be able to do it, I think I wouldn't have had to grip as hard as I try now, but I can't and I don't have much concerns about.
My current day-to-day support grip strength is 120 lbs, as measured on a medical equipment and using the agreed on technique. I estimated Ben's grip strength (not his max, his gun gripping strength) at about maybe 140. I do grip strength exercises very carefully, making sure to avoid overuse, and I started to shoot the doubles drill with a 45 ACP as an adjunct to grip strength development. Based what I see on my sights/dots, I am still in a crush the grip camp, I just don't think that crushing means 2.5 CoC effort.

I think the quarter panel technique is especially helpful on lightweight pistols with rather longish and heavy triggers (read Glock).

[Doc_Glock]

I think the quarter panel technique is especially helpful on lightweight pistols with rather longish and heavy triggers (read Glock).

I also think it is better on more rectangular grips (Glock) but it is also the reason I go for the biggest grip modules on HKs so my hands have a better chance to get behind that edge.

[BigD]

My current day-to-day support grip strength is 120 lbs, as measured on a medical equipment and using the agreed on technique. I estimated Ben's grip strength (not his max, his gun gripping strength) at about maybe 140.

How did you estimate that? From a class where he used his support hand to grip your strong hand on the pistol?

[YVK]

Yes. I've done that in the past. I ask the instructor to grab my right forearm with their support hand, applying the correct pressure, and it gives me the first impression. I then ask them to keep holding it and squeeze my right forearm with my support hand, trying to replicate it. Ben's pressure didn't feel painful but I was unable to generate the same amount myself.

[Clusterfrack]

Some people’s grip strength is remarkable. My martial arts instructor can grip an arm hard enough (without obvious effort) to cause heavy bruising. I wish I could do that because while it might not improve my shooting, it is an awesome superpower.

[runcible]

Never having been exposed to the "quarter-panel" method formally, I must reserve some opinion on it.

Though, while I can appreciate it getting bone-structure in place behind the grip and that makes sense; it does seem like it shares some overlap with the "cover all of the exposed grip with skin" methodology that is pretty common in shooting instruction. My concerns with that latter body of ideas is that it's a passive method for managing the recoil impulse, and thus is unlikely to be at its best when not buttressed with active muscular engagement; and in that it requires the support hand to drift rearwards on the grip to enable such, which for many (particularly those of small hands) also requires bending the wrist in accommodation and lowering the overall position of the support-hand so as to place the meaty portion of the thumb behind the grip's prominence. Lowering the support-hand shifts any active muscular pressure away from the boreline where recoil occurs, reducing the leverage involved and the efficiency of the engagement. Bending the wrist reduces the expressed grip strength, potentially below the threshold of the shooter being able to demonstrating an enduring grip through-out a full magazine of fire. Together, those two modifications would have me looking at the method askance.

For me myself and my specific work-gun, reduced in profile as it is from the stock configuration, I would be unable to maintain a cohesive shooting grip through successive firings; Lord knows I was made to shoot in such a manner across a few ten-thousands of rounds, and my grips have served me well in other pursuits. (Though, I'll be damned if Glen Stilson in AZ doesn't have tremendous grips, himself...)

[hiro]

My search fu is weak.

Can someone please link me a description of the quarter panel grip or is it a TPC proprietary technique?

Thank you

[GJM]

My search fu is weak.

Can someone please link me a description of the quarter panel grip or is it a TPC proprietary technique?

Thank you

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?30554-Tactical-Performance-Center-Handgun-Mastery-class

[randyflycaster]

What do you mean by 45 degree angle? Thanks,

Randy



While I don't game, I do shoot pistols - a lot.

One thing I have experienced over the years is figuring out exactly what type of grip is most necessary for effectively using a pistol. The main factor has always been consistency. Years ago there was a trend of "crushing" the gun for the sake of grip and then that went away because it wasn't working (and largely doesn't). Consistently putting pressure on the grip of a pistol to provide you with the same, expected, results is the best practice in my opinion.

For example, when shooting two hand freestyle at 25 yards for accuracy, I have found that using the forward thumb of your non-trigger hand to push slightly on the frame in a 45° angel while you are pressing the trigger provides a huge accuracy benefit. I have consistently seen improvement in anyone whose tried this and it has nothing to do with crushing grip strength.

The trick, in my opinion, is to find your personal level of grip required for pistol shooting and then work to evolve that. It's never completely loose or crushing the grip, it's usually somewhere just tighter than center.

[CCT125US]

I think it is a valuable technique that makes a ton of sense mechanically. My problem with it is that I can't execute it, barely with a slow deliberate placing of my hands on a gun and never with a speed draw. The size of my hands, the ergos of my guns, where my strong hand goes on a gun all lead to inability to make my support hand to go around that corner.

Based on my understanding of the technique, this was my observation as well. It works extremely well for recoil control, but for me, did not lend itself to ease of transitions, or accuracy at distance. For example on my hit factor test, or the TPC 24, it worked very well based on the target size. However, something like the iHack or even the Garcia dot drill was a different story. I didn't have fluid movement. Shooting B8s at 25 yards was also a challenge for me while using the quarter panel technique, at least based on my understanding of it. I have since moved on.

[randyflycaster]

Here's Mike Seeklander's description of the quarter-panel grip. What I am again confused about is that he advocates locking the elbows. Many top shooters, Julie Golub included, advocate not locking the elbows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl1urjYlsZM&feature=youtu.be


Also, some top shooters, as far as I know, do not use a death grip.

Randy

[randyflycaster]

P.S. I tried the quarter-panel grip in my house. I don't see how I can keep my support hand palm on the rear quarter panel of the gun. It slides forward when I apply forward pressure.

Randy

[Clusterfrack]

There are a lot of people who don't really know why what they do works, and some of these people are very accomplished shooters. After spending serious time down Hwansik Kim's rabbit hole, I think there is:

1) Confusion between gripping hard and locking the wrist. It is not obvious that these can be done independently unless you work on it.

2) Confusion between gripping the gun hard and returning the gun after recoil. These are not the same thing, and aren't directly related unless the gun is slipping inside the grip, or the grip is coming apart.

3) Confusion between how everyone needs to grip guns, and how a particular gun fits one person's hand.

[GJM]

There are great teachers, great shooters, and sometimes both come together in one package. There are also shooters who shoot well because of their technique, and some who shoot well despite their technique. There are also a lot of ways to skin a cat, and what works for you may or may not work for me.

Go put the work in, keep an open mind to different methods, and most often you will improve.

[BigD]

Here's Mike Seeklander's description of the quarter-panel grip. What I am again confused about is that he advocates locking the elbows. Many top shooters, Julie Golub included, advocate not locking the elbows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl1urjYlsZM&feature=youtu.be


Also, some top shooters, as far as I know, do not use a death grip.

Randy

As others have said, there’s not complete consensus on how to shoot among top shooters. No doubt Seeklander has tried to shoot without elbows locked and found it didn’t work as well for him.

(Having said that, I think more top shooter than not use the slightly bent elbow technique. So when in doubt, try what most do first. Experiment as needed.)

[Gray222]

What do you mean by 45 degree angle? Thanks,

Randy

forward thumb of non-shooting hand pushes against the frame of the pistol

[runcible]

There are a lot of people who don't really know why what they do works, and some of these people are very accomplished shooters. After spending serious time down Hwansik Kim's rabbit hole, I think there is:

1) Confusion between gripping hard and locking the wrist. It is not obvious that these can be done independently unless you work on it.

2) Confusion between gripping the gun hard and returning the gun after recoil. These are not the same thing, and aren't directly related unless the gun is slipping inside the grip, or the grip is coming apart.

3) Confusion between how everyone needs to grip guns, and how a particular gun fits one person's hand.

Minus the Kim nexus, this very much matches my own experience and opinions on the matter; and the absence of both mindfulness in one's own process and the ability to articulate such, is a huge motivator on my part in approaching the skillset.

[Gio]

I still find grip strength to be very valuable, although I've backed off a little on how hard I squeeze the gun in the past year and try to focus more on locking my wrists like Hwansik has discussed. I still close a 2.5 CoC gripper though, so my ~70% of maximum grip on my support hand is still a significant amount. I also find grip strength is more important shooting a lightweight polymer gun than a 45 oz steel frame production gun.

I don't think you can look at a USPSA national championship match (or any USPSA match) and draw a conclusion about grip strength based on the overall results. There are so many factors that go into final standings and performance at a major match like that. Justine and Ashley shoot completely different match strategies. Justine really seems to swing for the fences on every stages, and as a result, she dropped a lot more points and penalties than Ashley. She connected enough to slightly edge her out in this match though. Ashley shoots very consistent and conservatively, and as a result her final performances are going to be much more consistent over the course of multiple matches.

I shot an extremely conservative match at this nationals and felt like I left a lot of time on the table being overly cautious on my sights and movement. It was good enough for a top 12 finish though, and other shooters who are often faster/more aggressive than me in matches got caught up with too many penalties. I wouldn't say that I could have finished higher or lower because of my grip strength though. I could have been more aggressive on partials, entries, and exits and possibly shaved 1-2 seconds per stage, but that could have also potentially cost me 4-5 extra penalties and a lot fewer A's in the process. This is more of a match execution strategy than a technical shooting discussion related to grip.

[Clobbersaurus]

I still find grip strength to be very valuable, although I've backed off a little on how hard I squeeze the gun in the past year and try to focus more on locking my wrists like Hwansik has discussed. I still close a 2.5 CoC gripper though, so my ~70% of maximum grip on my support hand is still a significant amount. I also find grip strength is more important shooting a lightweight polymer gun than a 45 oz steel frame production gun.

I don't think you can look at a USPSA national championship match (or any USPSA match) and draw a conclusion about grip strength based on the overall results. There are so many factors that go into final standings and performance at a major match like that. Justine and Ashley shoot completely different in match strategies. Justine really seems to swings for the fences on every stages, and as a result, she dropped a lot more points and penalties than Ashley. She connected enough to slightly edge her out in this match though. Ashley shoots very consistent and conservatively, and as a result her final performances are going to be much more consistent over the course of multiple matches.

I shot an extremely conservative match at this nationals and felt like I left a lot of time on the table being overly cautious on my sights and movement. It was good enough for a top 12 finish though, and other shooters who are often faster/more aggressive than me in matches got caught up with too many penalties. I wouldn't say that I could have finished higher or lower because of my grip strength though. I could have been more aggressive on partials, entries, and exits and possibly shaved 1-2 seconds per stage, but that could have also potentially cost me 4-5 extra penalties and a lot fewer A's in the process. This is more of a match execution strategy than a technical shooting discussion related to grip.

Top 12 is no joke. Well done!

One of the best instructors I ever trained with always said that he taught “A way. Not the way.” Meaning he taught what works for many shooters but students had to realize that it may not work best for them. GJM has it right in the post above.

[Obelisk]

I think I can offer something here. Last year I fell and hurt a nerve in my right hand. Before the injury I could rep a CoC #2 15-20 reps. After injury my strength on my right hand on my dynameter was 40#s. What was injured wasn’t affecting my flexors, it was keeping my wrist straight, because as I squeezed my wrist would tilt down. If I steadied the gripper I gripped like normal. I couldn’t even use a staple gun. My shooting got terrible, but then again I had a nerve issue so that plays several ways.

I’m healed from it now. Shoot better than before. One thing I learned on hand strength it’s not just about the grippers. I own close to a grand in gripping gear. The same muscles that made me weak can also make your grip stronger. Holding onto a sledge hammer with your arm by your side with the head forward and tilting your wrist up to raise the head of the sledge does wonders for grip strength and real world strength.

One great hand gripping tool that’s over looked is the Harbinger grip system. They look like 3 cheap silicon rings you grip. Something grandma would use. I bought then for something easier to use when I had my injury. Let me just say they are awesome. You can use one finger or two or the whole grip. You can grip and manipulate the wrist up and down and back and forth. Pinch them with your finger tips. Yes they get easier and weaken a bit with use, but still fantastic for $23. There’s three weights. Orange is easy, red is moderate, black until broken in will make you angry as it is hard to close.

I have all the CoC grippers, but if I had to buy again I’d buy the Vatiz adjustable gripper. Same grip angle and same sized handles. That gripper is a beast! I love that gripper. I don’t even touch my CoC anymore.

Back to the wrist stabilization of my injury. Let me explain how important those sledge hammer exercises are. If I take a hollow metal broom handle and slide one end of the CoC #3 in there I can rep it a lot. That’s because I’m not limited to stabilizing my grip and I can go ham on my flexors. So as a part of grip training those sledge hammer or a metal rod exercises are very important. Hammer curls while you workout help as well.