Checkmate 320 magazines

[GJM]

I think I just figured something out. We have had ongoing reliability problems with the 17 round magazines that came with the new Legion, but never issues with the 21 round mags that came with the X5. The 21 round mags are marked “made in Italy,” and obviously made by MecGar. I read on SigForum that Checkmate makes 320 magazines. Sure enough, just checked the problematic 17 round magazines, and they are marked ”made in the USA,” no doubt by Checkmate.

Thank you Sig for trying to save a few bucks and give us crap!

[wmu12071]

I think I just figured something out. We have had ongoing reliability problems with the 17 round magazines that came with the new Legion, but never issues with the 21 round mags that came with the X5. The 21 round mags are marked “made in Italy,” and obviously made by MecGar. I read on SigForum that Checkmate makes 320 magazines. Sure enough, just checked the problematic 17 round magazines, and they are marked ”made in the USA,” no doubt by Checkmate.

Thank you Sig for trying to save a few bucks and give us crap!

Anyone know if this spills into the .mil mags?

[El Cid]

I think I just figured something out. We have had ongoing reliability problems with the 17 round magazines that came with the new Legion, but never issues with the 21 round mags that came with the X5. The 21 round mags are marked “made in Italy,” and obviously made by MecGar. I read on SigForum that Checkmate makes 320 magazines. Sure enough, just checked the problematic 17 round magazines, and they are marked ”made in the USA,” no doubt by Checkmate.

Thank you Sig for trying to save a few bucks and give us crap!

This actually makes sense regarding the alleged cease and desist order from Sig to Shield Arms. If checkmate is manufacturing mags for both they may be the common link and how Sig knew about the G43 mags that haven’t hit the market yet.

[M2CattleCo]

Check-Mate makes junky mags. Whodathunkit?

[RAM Engineer]

You know who makes the mags that come with the G19?
G43?
43X?

If you said Glock for all three, you’re correct.

[HALO51]

I think I just figured something out. We have had ongoing reliability problems with the 17 round magazines that came with the new Legion, but never issues with the 21 round mags that came with the X5. The 21 round mags are marked “made in Italy,” and obviously made by MecGar. I read on SigForum that Checkmate makes 320 magazines. Sure enough, just checked the problematic 17 round magazines, and they are marked ”made in the USA,” no doubt by Checkmate.

Thank you Sig for trying to save a few bucks and give us crap!
Typical Sig quality cutting corners under the Cohen regime...Checkmate is junk and very well known as junk mags. Mec-Gar is quality "Made in Italy" on side of mags.

[GardoneVT]

I don’t understand the hate. Checkmate builds great carry-friendly Beretta 92 flat baseplates.Theyre even nice enough to send a deadweight mag body , spring and follower set so you can practice malfunction drills. :D

[Texaspoff]

Typical Sig quality cutting corners under the Cohen regime...Checkmate is junk and very well known as junk mags. Mec-Gar is quality "Made in Italy" on side of mags.

Yup. Had some USA checkmate mags a while back with one of my 320s. Nothing but issues. Will only use Italian made one now period.





TXPO

[kwb377]

Thanks for the heads-up...I didn't realize there were U.S. made oem P320 mags.

I've got about eight 17 rounders, all Italian manufacture, zero issues...I'll be sure to pay attention next time I need to buy some.

[Greg]

Maybe try some Wolff springs in the Checkmate mags?

The issues with Checkmate mags for the P226, M14, 1911 (probably more) are always spring related.

[Kanye Wyoming]

I had a few P320 subcompact 12-round mags, half made in Italy and half made in USA. The USA mags wouldn’t drop, not a one. I called Sig and asked that they send me “made in Italy” mags in exchange. EVENTUALLY they said send them back so they can look at them, and EVENTUALLY they sent new Italy mags, which were fine.

Presumably the USA mags were Checkmate mags. NFW I’d buy these Shield mags. Disappointing.

[GardoneVT]

Maybe try some Wolff springs in the Checkmate mags?

The issues with Checkmate mags for the P226, M14, 1911 (probably more) are always spring related.

The Beretta 92s use a dry film coating that tended to stick in the grip every tenth mag ejection or so. Keeps those mag change skills sharp!

[cornstalker]

I have been lucky. All of my Sig P320c mags were made in Italy. Now I know to keep it that way.

[HCM]

Yup. Had some USA checkmate mags a while back with one of my 320s. Nothing but issues. Will only use Italian made one now period.





TXPO

I attended the SIG 320 Armorers course earlier this year. They advised the LE /IOP guns are supposed to come with the made in Italy mags and they recommended sticking to the made in Italy mags for duty use.

[Galbraith]

All of my full sized P320 .45acp mags are marked "Made in Italy". I've got 2 generations of them including ones put out within the last 6 months. The P365 series mags are all marked "Made in USA", even IOP guns.

I have also noticed over the years that the P220 .45acp mags were always either made in Germany(7rd old style), or "Made in Italy" for the 8rd later model stainless ones. Sig Sauer would contract out their 9mm magazines with Checkmate in the classic line, but never in .45acp and I do not "think" they ever did with .40S&W mags.

The problem with the 9mm cartridge is the sharp case taper. This can cause magazine feeding reliability issues in higher capacity pistol magazines, especially if the engineering and quality isn't sound. I never had problems running a full auto UZI in 20rd or 25rd magazines, but as we would bump up to 32rd or 50rd magazines the reliability of the magazine got progressively worse, even with newer springs.

[Galbraith]

I attended the SIG 320 Armorers course earlier this year. They advised the LE /IOP guns are supposed to come with the made in Italy mags and they recommended sticking to the made in Italy mags for duty use.

Yep, you will never catch me buying Sig Sauer products outside of the IOP program.

[Lon]

I attended the SIG 320 Armorers course earlier this year. They advised the LE /IOP guns are supposed to come with the made in Italy mags and they recommended sticking to the made in Italy mags for duty use.

They told me the same thing when I spoke with our rep prior to getting our guns in 2014. The 226s came w Checkmate mags. 229s came w MG made mags.

Fuck Sig. They’re a morally bankrupt company.

[Sigfan26]

Lots of P320 magazine issues randomly popping up when folks found out a company they didn’t like was making the magazines...


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[Sigfan26]

Wondering if Sig will have a “voluntary safety upgrade” on the “shitty” mags.


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[ArgentFix]

I think I just figured something out. We have had ongoing reliability problems with the 17 round magazines that came with the new Legion, but never issues with the 21 round mags that came with the X5. The 21 round mags are marked “made in Italy,” and obviously made by MecGar. I read on SigForum that Checkmate makes 320 magazines. Sure enough, just checked the problematic 17 round magazines, and they are marked ”made in the USA,” no doubt by Checkmate.

My first P320 came with two ”made in USA" stamped mags that the gun would not cycle over when loaded +1, even after leaving the mags full in the safe for a month. I bought 4 SIG branded "made in Italy" mags from an LGS shortly after and had zero mechanical problems for ~8k rounds. I sent the gun and original USA mags to SIG at 10k for service, and asked them to verify the problem. The gun was returned with two "Italy" mags.

[fixer]

I'd be interested to know of any instance of a defective MecGar mag.

[Nephrology]

They told me the same thing when I spoke with our rep prior to getting our guns in 2014. The 226s came w Checkmate mags. 229s came w MG made mags.

Fuck Sig. They’re a morally bankrupt company.

I still don't understand why people buy firearms from them at this point. The legacy P series pistols were great guns, but that's not a reason to keep giving them money in 2019...

[M2CattleCo]

I still don't understand why people buy firearms from them at this point. The legacy P series pistols were great guns, but that's not a reason to keep giving them money in 2019...

I don't either. Blatant 'We make cheap junk, but if you're not LE we make it even junkier for you AND it's more expensive without the LE/IOP discount.'

[ECVMatt]

I will admit that I am a bit dismayed by SIG. They were the gold standard not long ago and now it seems as though they want to become the American version of Taurus.....I really hope they can turn it around.

[t1tan]

I will admit that I am a bit dismayed by SIG. They were the gold standard not long ago and now it seems as though they want to become the American version of Taurus.....I really hope they can turn it around.

Nothing will change until leadership changes

[GJM]

I still don't understand why people buy firearms from them at this point. The legacy P series pistols were great guns, but that's not a reason to keep giving them money in 2019...

The 320 X5/Legion is likely the single most popular USPSA CO pistol. The MPX is one of the more popular USPSA PCC choices. The 365 is one of the more popular CCW pistols. That doesn’t even include the rest of the 320 series.

[Galbraith]

I still don't understand why people buy firearms from them at this point. The legacy P series pistols were great guns, but that's not a reason to keep giving them money in 2019...

Although I haven’t had any issues when I buy IOP products from them, indeed I would very likely buy Glock or H&K instead for personal ownership/use. I’m only authorized to carry Sigs, so I’m in this boat for the foreseeable future. I’m currently running 2 P320fs .45acps, and a P365xl off duty. I’ve had 2 P320 9mms before that. One of the 9mm guns had an overly stiff trigger pull of around 10lbs. This one was bought just after Sig put out the “upgraded” models. I put a Gray Guns trigger on it and that gave it a 4.5lb trigger pull. I’m content with what I’m using at the moment and so no reason to change.

[HCM]

I will admit that I am a bit dismayed by SIG. They were the gold standard not long ago and now it seems as though they want to become the American version of Taurus.....I really hope they can turn it around.


Nothing will change until leadership changes

And that wont change while they are making money.

[lwt16]

I'm over about 40 320s now with about 4-5 magazines per pistol as a certified Sig armorer. This aftermarket kit got our problematic CM USA mags back to running clean.

https://benstoegerproshop.com/sig-p320-magazine-spring-and-follower-kit-by-grams-engineering/

The local USPSA guys have figured out that they will only purchase MG Italian made mags and so far, I haven't heard of a failure with those. We only purchase the Italian ones now and the last order we bought was for 50 17 rounders.

Here are the issues I have seen in the last year:

1. Missing striker return spring
2. Out of spec magazine release
3. Three severely rusted magazine releases (heavy sweaty dudes)
4. Out of spec magazines (CM USA)
5. Out of spec magazine spring (15 round spring in a 17 round magazine)
6. About four out of spec extractors
7. Out of spec take down lever safety (you had to dry fire the gun to remove the slide)
8. Recoil spring assembly failure (about the 1000 round mark)
9. Out of spec rear sight to where you could push it out of the dove tail with finger pressure only.

Make sure you oil your magazine catch assembly. That is the issue I saw today when one of ours wouldn't retain a loaded magazine and I was called to "come fixy".

Regards.

[Eyesquared]

I'm over about 40 320s now with about 4-5 magazines per pistol as a certified Sig armorer. This aftermarket kit got our problematic CM USA mags back to running clean.

https://benstoegerproshop.com/sig-p320-magazine-spring-and-follower-kit-by-grams-engineering/

The local USPSA guys have figured out that they will only purchase MG Italian made mags and so far, I haven't heard of a failure with those. We only purchase the Italian ones now and the last order we bought was for 50 17 rounders.


Are you using those for the 21-round magazines or standard 17 round magazines? I know a lot of people use the Grams follower in conjunction with the Springer or TTI baseplates on the 21-rounders for carry optics, but I am shooting Production and I am sitting on some CM 17-round mags which I haven't had any issues with yet (knock on wood).

More generally, is there any way us regular joes can specifically buy the Mec Gar mags online or do I have to go to the LGS and start reading the sides of the mags through the package?

[lwt16]

Are you using those for the 21-round magazines or standard 17 round magazines? I know a lot of people use the Grams follower in conjunction with the Springer or TTI baseplates on the 21-rounders for carry optics, but I am shooting Production and I am sitting on some CM 17-round mags which I haven't had any issues with yet (knock on wood).

More generally, is there any way us regular joes can specifically buy the Mec Gar mags online or do I have to go to the LGS and start reading the sides of the mags through the package?

We used them for the 17 rounders only. We had less than 10 problematic magazines which we marked and then regulated to range use only. Once we purchased the kits, the magazines were then 100 percent.

I'll ask the guy that is over purchasing what shop he dealt with but I do know he called and specifically said he wanted the Italian marked ones and this was a 1500 +/- order we placed and they were a pleasure to deal with. He (our guy) is a die hard Sig fan and is pretty disappointed in how Sig CS handled his inquiries. As an armorer, I have been less than thrilled with parts support and have found other sources that are cheaper...even after my so-called armorer's discount applies....which didn't apply the last time I had to order parts.

Regards.

[RAM Engineer]

I will admit that I am a bit dismayed by SIG. They were the gold standard not long ago and now it seems as though they want to become the American version of Taurus.....I really hope they can turn it around.

“Not too long ago” = well over a decade ago by my reckoning. The P228 was the last GREAT gun they made.

[HCM]

I'm over about 40 320s now with about 4-5 magazines per pistol as a certified Sig armorer. This aftermarket kit got our problematic CM USA mags back to running clean.

https://benstoegerproshop.com/sig-p320-magazine-spring-and-follower-kit-by-grams-engineering/

The local USPSA guys have figured out that they will only purchase MG Italian made mags and so far, I haven't heard of a failure with those. We only purchase the Italian ones now and the last order we bought was for 50 17 rounders.

Here are the issues I have seen in the last year:

1. Missing striker return spring
2. Out of spec magazine release
3. Three severely rusted magazine releases (heavy sweaty dudes)
4. Out of spec magazines (CM USA)
5. Out of spec magazine spring (15 round spring in a 17 round magazine)
6. About four out of spec extractors
7. Out of spec take down lever safety (you had to dry fire the gun to remove the slide)
8. Recoil spring assembly failure (about the 1000 round mark)
9. Out of spec rear sight to where you could push it out of the dove tail with finger pressure only.

Make sure you oil your magazine catch assembly. That is the issue I saw today when one of ours wouldn't retain a loaded magazine and I was called to "come fixy".

Regards.

I just inspected a POW P365 with an out of spec take down lever that also required a trigger pull to get the slide off. It was purchased from an IOP dealer. Haven’t heard if the dealer is swapping it out or if the officer has to send it back to SIG.

[Nephrology]

The 320 X5/Legion is likely the single most popular USPSA CO pistol. The MPX is one of the more popular USPSA PCC choices. The 365 is one of the more popular CCW pistols. That doesn’t even include the rest of the 320 series.

the Ram 1500 is a very popular pickup... that is easily the least-reliable in class.

Where is the "putting on my flame suit" emoji?

[10mmfanboy]

Aren't the p365 mags made by check-mate? Are they having issues? I know for sure 2 of my p226 mags were check-mate but had no issues with them. They did seem harder to load though, now I think about it. I wonder if sccy mags are by check-mate? I know a guy who just bought a sccy cpx2 or something and had all kinds of malfunctions. He ended up taking apart the magazines and cleaning them thoroughly and said there was a lot of gunk in them brand new and it seemed to bind up the spring inside. He said the gun has run flawless since he cleaned the mags.

[cornstalker]

Aren't the p365 mags made by check-mate? Are they having issues? I know for sure 2 of my p226 mags were check-mate but had no issues with them. They did seem harder to load though, now I think about it. I wonder if sccy mags are by check-mate? I know a guy who just bought a sccy cpx2 or something and had all kinds of malfunctions. He ended up taking apart the magazines and cleaning them thoroughly and said there was a lot of gunk in them brand new and it seemed to bind up the spring inside. He said the gun has run flawless since he cleaned the mags.

Interesting. All of my P365 mags have had a sticker gooey finish inside and out until cleaned with brake cleaner and wiped down with an oiled rag. Never had to do that with Italian P320c mags.

[GJM]

the Ram 1500 is a very popular pickup... that is easily the least-reliable in class.

Where is the "putting on my flame suit" emoji?

I am not trying to convince anyone to buy a Sig, just explaining why people do. As much as I dislike things Sig corporate has done, the 320 Legion has cured my wife’s debilitating shooter’s elbow, and for that I am very grateful.

[10mmfanboy]

Interesting. All of my P365 mags have had a sticker gooey finish inside and out until cleaned with brake cleaner and wiped down with an oiled rag. Never had to do that with Italian P320c mags.

That is very interesting! I think some of the problems may just be how they are being manufactured, or maybe they use a packing grease when they ship them out. I am actually kind of glad to see they are using a USA made company. I don't own a 320 or 365 but I have heard a lot of complaints on the p365 mags being difficult to load. Maybe they just need a good cleaning when new.

[LockedBreech]

I am floored by the new (to me) revelation that at least to some degree Sig is packaging Mec Gar mags with LE guns and Checkmate mags with non-LE guns.

I suppose it beats the alternative - I want LE to have reliable guns - but it shows more or less conclusively that Sig was aware of a more reliable option and a less reliable option, and chose the less reliable option with general retail guns to save a few bucks per gun.

I seriously don't know why I'm surprised at this point, but I'm surprised enough to be pissed at it.

[zaitcev]

the Ram 1500 is a very popular pickup... that is easily the least-reliable in class.
There is no question that Ram is less reliable. The question is if the reliability advantage of other trucks matters.

I drove a 2010 Jeep Wrangler for 8 years and 130k miles. It was bulletproof.

When I was buying it, I went to TrueDelta and looked up at the real numbers. The JK was showing something like 40 visits per 100 per year and FJ was showing 20. So, as you can see, Toyota was twice as reliable, but so what? Both were reliable _enough_. And my experience easily validated my trust in hard data and math.

SIG was surprisingly transparent, by the standards of this wretched industry, when it came to P365. Their representative shared that 0.8% of strikers broke on P635 made in the first generation. That's about 1 in 100. I never heard of Glock, FN, or S&W share these numbers with the public. I guess the whipping SIG received during the P320 debacle has dome them good. Let's keep up the good work.

[zaitcev]

I am floored by the new (to me) revelation that at least to some degree Sig is packaging Mec Gar mags with LE guns and Checkmate mags with non-LE guns.
I have a 2019 civilian market frame set that came with 3 MG magazines. In fact, I've never seen a CM magazine in my life. So, maybe it was just a batch to test waters.

[HCM]

I have a 2019 civilian market frame set that came with 3 MG magazines. In fact, I've never seen a CM magazine in my life. So, maybe it was just a batch to test waters.

There are plenty of USA made (checkmate) 320 mags out there. SIG has been using a mix of CM and MG mags for years. I have some of the CM made P226 mags and haven’t had any issues with them but as noted the instructors at the SIG Armorers class were specific about MG for duty use.

[HCM]

I'm over about 40 320s now with about 4-5 magazines per pistol as a certified Sig armorer. This aftermarket kit got our problematic CM USA mags back to running clean.

https://benstoegerproshop.com/sig-p320-magazine-spring-and-follower-kit-by-grams-engineering/

The local USPSA guys have figured out that they will only purchase MG Italian made mags and so far, I haven't heard of a failure with those. We only purchase the Italian ones now and the last order we bought was for 50 17 rounders.

Here are the issues I have seen in the last year:

1. Missing striker return spring
2. Out of spec magazine release
3. Three severely rusted magazine releases (heavy sweaty dudes)
4. Out of spec magazines (CM USA)
5. Out of spec magazine spring (15 round spring in a 17 round magazine)
6. About four out of spec extractors
7. Out of spec take down lever safety (you had to dry fire the gun to remove the slide)
8. Recoil spring assembly failure (about the 1000 round mark)
9. Out of spec rear sight to where you could push it out of the dove tail with finger pressure only.

Make sure you oil your magazine catch assembly. That is the issue I saw today when one of ours wouldn't retain a loaded magazine and I was called to "come fixy".

Regards.

So is fair to say the issue with the CM mags was limited to weak /improper springs or were there other issues?

[lwt16]

Ours seem to have been more related to the followers.

[Trooper224]

When I lived with the 1911, the Checkmate eight round mag, with removable base pad, was my go to. I still have around thirty of them and they're great mags. On the other hand, I've found Checkmate Beretta mags to be less than stellar. Apparently, the same applies to their 320 mags. I don't understand the disconnect.

[Galbraith]

When I lived with the 1911, the Checkmate eight round mag, with removable base pad, was my go to. I still have around thirty of them and they're great mags. On the other hand, I've found Checkmate Beretta mags to be less than stellar. Apparently, the same applies to their 320 mags. I don't understand the disconnect.

Very tapered case versus less tapered case, combined with designing a magazine that angles rearward versus a SMG magazine which is straight or curved forward with the natural curvature of the case taper. Several militaries, including the Germans tested the Highpower and similar double column 9mm magazines prior and during WWII. With the materials and manufacturing limitations of the time, these magazines were found to be too unreliable unless field conditions were ideal and magazine springs were like new. Even into the 1970s, many organizations still found double column 9mm pistol magazines to have poor reliability and shied away from them. In the 1990s, the .40S&W was advertised as being more reliable in pistol magazines than the 9mm which for those of us that remember......9mm magazines did in fact become less reliable as the springs were broken in and got dirty. Modern springs, design, and manufacturing have made double column 9mm magazines more reliable, but if design, materials, and manufacturing breaks down then it is perfectly logical to expect problems.

[kwb377]

I am floored by the new (to me) revelation that at least to some degree Sig is packaging Mec Gar mags with LE guns and Checkmate mags with non-LE guns.


While used for LE work, all four of my 320's were purchase either new or used through normal retail channels (non-LE guns). All came with Italian mags, and I've purchased several mags (15, 17 and 21 rounders) individually through different retailers and all have been Italian.

Maybe I've just had a streak of fortunate dumb-luck. :)

[CanineCombatives]

Just rummaged through all mine, 19 in total all italian.

[Mjolnir]

What about ACT Magazines?


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[zaitcev]

That begs the question actually, who does make the (J) magazines? We know that (C) is Checkmate, which is fine. I'm happy that SIG make their suppliers to identify themselves. So, is (J) ACT? Why not (A)?

[JonInWA]

I honestly don't know who the (J) manufacturer is. If anyone has some knowledgeable, discloseable insight, I'd certainly be interested.

I'd also be interested to know if (J) is currently a SIG vendor, or were they a previous one. If they were a previous one, especially if they utilized the old round inner floorplate retaining peg to the basepad, they likely are the original and unimproved production spec magazines, which may be prone to issues.

Best, Jon.

[zaitcev]

The Mec-Gar magazines seem a little better made than (J) magazines, at least cosmetically (I don't have any real Checkmate (C) magazines for comparison). The front side of Italians are completely smooth and flat, including the holes for the latch as well as random round holes. But on the (J) magazines, I can see the seam where the tube was welded, and the edges of the holes are not smooth. They have the stress edges where the punch tore up the metal. Maybe the punch was a little dull. This can be seen if you hold them up to a light, but does not seem to be affecting the reliability or longevity. Of course only a department armorer with hundreds of them will have reliable data.

Bottom plate latches are square on all of them.

[Hemiram]

I bought a used Beretta 92FS years ago and in the deal came like a dozen mags. Some were Meg-Gars, some were Promags, and a couple were Checkmate's. Of all of them, the Checkmates were the only ones I had trouble with. Even the ProMag 17 round ones, worked fine. Weird thing was, my Kel-Tec SUB2000 took 92 mags and they worked in it without a hiccup. Pretty much any mag works in that gun, as long as it actually locks in solidly. A couple of the Promags didn't at first, but a little file work on the latch slot and taking them apart to clean them seemed to fix it. I ended up putting the Checkmates and Promags in my SUB 2000 case and kept the Meg-Gars for the 92FS.