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View Full Version : HK P30 DA/SA at 25 yards



Robert Mitchum
04-22-2012, 03:58 PM
I am doing more shooting from the holster and trying to get better putting rounds on target at a faster pace.
Fired 2 rounds from concealment at 25 yards shooting at the head part of a standard range target.
Took about 4 to 5 seconds to get both rounds off.
22 rounds
14 inside the target
8 outside.
I started in DA for the first round.
Would I be more accurate with a LEM trigger system. ?
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s1/cjstinks/100_2987-1.jpg?t=1335127078

gtmtnbiker98
04-22-2012, 05:20 PM
And when you can't hit to your liking with LEM, will you switch again? More rounds, more dry fire, stick to one platform. Have you received any formal training? Keep what you have and focus. If you keep chasing the next "best" thing, then you'll never reach your potential.

BaiHu
04-22-2012, 05:49 PM
And when you can't hit to your liking with LEM, will you switch again? More rounds, more dry fire, stick to one platform. Have you received any formal training? Keep what you have and focus. If you keep chasing the next "best" thing, then you'll never reach your potential.

+1

I would slow down, too-advice I often don't take enough from myself. At 25 yds yesterday, I was able to draw from AIWB and hit a 5" plate at 2.53 seconds with my own P30 DA/SA and I shot it in DA. It was just for sh$*s and giggles in combination with a lucky shot, b/c I couldn't replicate it the rest of the day, but I was able to do a few more within 3 seconds. I was having a lot of fun with my new timer, the Pocket Pro 2, so I just started using it on any crazy thing I could think of-sometimes being a complete lunatic can break some barriers :p

ETA: That wasn't supposed to be a bragging post, it was meant to be a 'if I can do it, SNE, then you can do it too.' I'm a fan of the DA/SA platform and I love my P30 and it is more accurate than I'm capable of wringing out of it, but I'm sure gonna try to push that envelope as far as I can.

GJM
04-22-2012, 08:22 PM
Advice that is easier to give than receive, is it is the Indian not the arrow or bow. Reviewing TLG's scores at Rogers, it appears he shot higher best scores with a Sig and Beretta than his M&P, going contrary to the notion that a SA striker pistol is easier to shoot than DA/SA.

YVK
04-22-2012, 08:48 PM
Would I be more accurate with a LEM trigger system. ?


I find that, for the same par on timer, I am more accurate with lighter triggers than heavier ones (although trigger weight is not the only factor). Is that a deep statement or what? Seeing how 5 lbs and under trigger are so popular now - negative connectors on Glocks, Apex parts on M&Ps, PPQs etc. - I figure I am not alone here...

You're shooting at 25 yards where even minor angular muzzle deviation will play out big on the target. The drill that you have is more of a marksmanship drill then it is a "speed" drill. I say there is a reasonable chance you might get a better hit rate with lighter LEM trigger.
I'd try to figure out which shot you're missing - first or second. My guess is that if first is off, LEM might help; if second is off, then I doubt it.

Failure2Stop
04-22-2012, 10:09 PM
I found that I could be very precise with the SA trigger:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/af30a99a.jpg
B8 target. 25 yards, 20 shots (10 free style in 15 seconds, 5 right handed and 5 left handed in 10 seconds each)

*Note* This was following quite a bit of 25 yard work for standards verification. I normally do not shoot that well at that pace at 25.

BaiHu
04-22-2012, 10:42 PM
I found that I could be very precise with the SA trigger:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/af30a99a.jpg
B8 target. 25 yards, 20 shots (10 free style in 15 seconds, 5 right handed and 5 left handed in 10 seconds each)

*Note* This was following quite a bit of 25 yard work for standards verification. I normally do not shoot that well at that pace at 25.

Pretty holes! I know, PHRASING! But I couldn't resist :p

Robert Mitchum
04-23-2012, 12:22 AM
And when you can't hit to your liking with LEM, will you switch again? More rounds, more dry fire, stick to one platform. Have you received any formal training? Keep what you have and focus. If you keep chasing the next "best" thing, then you'll never reach your potential.

I will stick with the DA/SA
When I shoot slow fire I am decent at 25 & 50 yards.
Once I speed up my accuarcy is sub par.
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s1/cjstinks/x-1.jpg

30 rounds single action slow fire 25 yards
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s1/cjstinks/100_2319.jpg

Once I speed up and start in DA my shooting sucks...
I will start doing more DA/SA shooting ..
Have you received any formal training = No..

BaiHu
04-23-2012, 10:08 AM
Are these bench rest or offhand??

JHC
04-23-2012, 11:08 AM
I would not go changing yet. It's not that easy to change a P30 is it?

This drill of hitting a head in a compressed time frame at 25 yds is pretty aggressive. Basically all pretty good if shooting for the torso A zone right?

TCinVA
04-23-2012, 01:14 PM
The key to using the LEM trigger with precision is the same key to using any DA trigger with precision: A good, rolling break. Prior to using the P30 I thought I knew what a rolling break was, but it's only after having used one for a while that I've come to really understand what a good rolling break actually is....and when I can manage to not screw up the sighting bit I can shoot with some pretty spectacular accuracy. The LEM trigger may offer some benefit in that it's typically lighter and smoother than the DA trigger pull of a DA/SA configured pistol, which would make it easier to have that good rolling break...but by really focusing on applying consistent pressure and constant motion of the trigger when shooting in DA mode you should be able to get excellent results even with the DA trigger on your current P30.

The key to shooting DA "fast" is to do all the same things...only quicker. I can go reasonably "fast" and make hits if I just take that extra bit of "time" (in reality only fractions of a second) to press all the way through the break consistently rather than just hammering the trigger to the rear in one violent motion.

GJM
04-23-2012, 08:20 PM
TC speaks the truth on the rolling break. I have not shot more than a few rounds thru a P30 in the last six months, but I have shot a lot of .22 thru a Smith 317. For giggles, in light of this thread, I strapped on a LEM P30 and Shaggy, and fired four pairs from concealment at 25 yards this afternoon. No staging the trigger, just pulling through with a rolling break as TC describes. HK ought to package a .22 revolver with each P30.

729

Robert Mitchum
04-23-2012, 11:51 PM
Are these bench rest or offhand??

offhand
I have never done any bench rest shooting.
My problem is not accuarcy when I do slow fire.

Robert Mitchum
04-23-2012, 11:53 PM
"The key to shooting DA "fast" is to do all the same things...only quicker. I can go reasonably "fast" and make hits if I just take that extra bit of "time" (in reality only fractions of a second) to press all the way through the break consistently rather than just hammering the trigger to the rear in one violent motion".[/QUOTE]

Thanks !!

cutter
04-24-2012, 08:09 AM
The key to using the LEM trigger with precision is the same key to using any DA trigger with precision: A good, rolling break. Prior to using the P30 I thought I knew what a rolling break was, but it's only after having used one for a while that I've come to really understand what a good rolling break actually is....and when I can manage to not screw up the sighting bit I can shoot with some pretty spectacular accuracy. The LEM trigger may offer some benefit in that it's typically lighter and smoother than the DA trigger pull of a DA/SA configured pistol, which would make it easier to have that good rolling break...but by really focusing on applying consistent pressure and constant motion of the trigger when shooting in DA mode you should be able to get excellent results even with the DA trigger on your current P30.

The key to shooting DA "fast" is to do all the same things...only quicker. I can go reasonably "fast" and make hits if I just take that extra bit of "time" (in reality only fractions of a second) to press all the way through the break consistently rather than just hammering the trigger to the rear in one violent motion.

Ah! This seems to explain why I am not consistent when shooting my P30 V2. I'm coming from shooting a 1911 with a glass rod break and what I seem to be doing with the P30 is staging the trigger and mashing the last little bit. So what I should be doing is a smooth continuous pull? What drills outside of a dime/washer should I be doing to learn this?

JHC
04-24-2012, 09:36 AM
"The key to shooting DA "fast" is to do all the same things...only quicker. I can go reasonably "fast" and make hits if I just take that extra bit of "time" (in reality only fractions of a second) to press all the way through the break consistently rather than just hammering the trigger to the rear in one violent motion".

Thanks !![/QUOTE]

You are coming from a long history of SA shooting with 1911s and HKs. And you're in the process of transitioning to faster shooting on closer range drills vs dominant training time at longish range precision. I am not sure throwing the additional variable to changing to a "rolling" LEM trigger would be my plan A yet.

Robert Mitchum
04-24-2012, 01:08 PM
Thanks !!

You are coming from a long history of SA shooting with 1911s and HKs. And you're in the process of transitioning to faster shooting on closer range drills vs dominant training time at longish range precision. I am not sure throwing the additional variable to changing to a "rolling" LEM trigger would be my plan A yet.[/QUOTE]

I am going to stick with the DA/SA
I forgot to post about the poor lighting at the indoor range I belong too.
Plus I just cut my finger and was trying a new shooting stance out.
I bet the next time I do better :)

TCinVA
04-28-2012, 11:33 PM
Ah! This seems to explain why I am not consistent when shooting my P30 V2. I'm coming from shooting a 1911 with a glass rod break and what I seem to be doing with the P30 is staging the trigger and mashing the last little bit.


That'll nail you every time.



So what I should be doing is a smooth continuous pull?


Correct. As a mental exercise, think about a car...what happens when you mash the gas pedal? It causes a sudden weight transfer and that weight transfer changes the handling f the vehicle...with catastrophic consequences at times.

Say you're in a rear-wheel drive car with 550 horsepower. You're coming out of a tight turn. If you stomp the gas to the floor, you'll end up chasing the back end of the car with the steering wheel to keep from spinning. If, instead, you apply the throttle in a smooth and consistent fashion the rear tires will bite instead of spin and all those ponies will get applied to propelling you in the direction you want to go.

A "rolling break" is the same general concept...smooth, consistent application of pressure throughout the trigger pull directs the bullets where you want them.



What drills outside of a dime/washer should I be doing to learn this?

The dime/empty case drill is a good drill to develop a kinesthetic understanding of what a great trigger pull actually feels like. Another thing that helps is working with a DA revolver. A good .22LR DA revolver can do wonders for your understanding of how to run a double action trigger. Without one of those handy, one of the things I did was go to the range and perform the case on the front sight drill several times and then fire 3 or 4 rounds without paying much attention to the sights, but instead trying to replicate that feel on the trigger. I would repeat that (using a snap cap for the dry runs) for about a box of ammo. After a few range outings doing that I was dry-firing at home after cleaning my guns (I do occasionally clean them...honest) and I distinctly remember having a eureka moment when I went "Oh...THAT's a rolling break!"

Once you understand how it works, you'll have the foundation you need to work on speed.

TCinVA
04-28-2012, 11:37 PM
Staging the trigger will nail you every time.


So what I should be doing is a smooth continuous pull?

Correct. As a mental exercise, think about a car...what happens when you mash the gas pedal? It causes a sudden weight transfer and that weight transfer changes the handling f the vehicle...with catastrophic consequences at times.

Say you're in a rear-wheel drive car with 550 horsepower. You're coming out of a tight turn. If you stomp the gas to the floor, you'll end up chasing the back end of the car with the steering wheel to keep from spinning. If, instead, you apply the throttle in a smooth and consistent fashion the rear tires will bite instead of spin and all those ponies will get applied to propelling you in the direction you want to go.

A "rolling break" is the same general concept...smooth, consistent application of pressure throughout the trigger pull directs the bullets where you want them.


What drills outside of a dime/washer should I be doing to learn this?

The dime/empty case drill is a good drill to develop a kinesthetic understanding of what a great trigger pull actually feels like. Another thing that helps is working with a DA revolver. A good .22LR DA revolver can do wonders for your understanding of how to run a double action trigger. Without one of those handy, one of the things I did was go to the range and perform the case on the front sight drill several times and then fire 3 or 4 rounds without paying much attention to the sights, but instead trying to replicate that feel on the trigger. Not shooting for groups or with any accuracy goal beyond simply keeping it on the berm/backstop, but instead concentrating 99% of my attention on replicating that smooth, consistent feel on the trigger. I would repeat that (using a snap cap for the dry runs) for about a box of ammo. After a few range outings doing that I was dry-firing at home after cleaning my guns (I do occasionally clean them...honest) and I distinctly remember having a eureka moment when I went "Oh...THAT's a rolling break!"

Once you understand how it works, you'll have the foundation you need to work on speed. To be honest, that's something I need to do myself. When I go "fast" I tend to smash through the trigger in one violent motion. What I need to do to correct that is ignoring the sights and working on making the gun go boom faster but while feeling myself roll through the trigger instead of smashing it.

cutter
04-30-2012, 07:55 AM
Staging the trigger will nail you every time.

Thanks for the tips. I was at the range yesterday and got the chance to shoot a P30 40cal light LEM (mine's a 9mm TGS). Put all of the rounds on the card at 6 yards, so it seems my problem is trigger control. I want to keep working on the TGS springs as Todd writes that he likes it for a faster reset and I don't like the idea of a 4 1/2 lbs trigger on a carry gun without a safety.

The DA 22 is gonna have to wait until the large hole in my bank account from the purchase of a P30, mags, holster, sights..., gets filled.