40S&W making a comeback

[Sammy1]

I have noticed that more and more people own and shoot 40S&W handguns. It seems like everyone just bought one and or I'm seeing them at the range. Not long ago 40S&W was frowned upon and noted for it's "snappy" recoil and over priced ammunition. It hasn't been that long since 9mm became the new fad. I'm guessing it's the discounted 40 cal handguns going on sale and or police trade ins. I've never seen a cartridge turn around so quickly, going back in favor.

[Snapshot]

For low volume shooters the difference in the cost of cheap training / plinking ammunition is probably not significant compared to the reduced cost of handguns e.g. agency trade-ins. For USPSA Limited & IPSC Standard division 40 is the sweet spot and participants may also be reloading.

[rcbusmc24]

People like cheap.... and a lot of the police trade ins are available at a good price and they seem to be in pretty good shape... too bad the ammo cost is higher.

[BillSWPA]

If capacity restrictions become more common, then I would expect both .40 and .45 to become more popular. It appears that Virginia may be headed that way, and Pittsburgh’s most recent attempt was shut down in court.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LockedBreech]

I have kept my 5 .40s (PX4, M&P40, Cougar 8040, G27, G23) because I already own them so why not? They aren't worth much for trade these days.

They don't get shot a lot but my former Detroit PD M&P40 is my woods/camping handgun, I consider it an excellent woods cartridge.

I don't think .40 will ever really make a comeback, but I think it will remain on the books as a niche cartridge like .357 Sig or 10mm for at least a few decades.

[smolphry]

The only people I know shooting .40 are guys competing in Limited or guys that don't know any better. I'm sure once the cheap police trade in guns dry up so will most of the interest in .40

[CWM11B]

Define comeback. Agencies are dumping the caliber in mass in my region, and my LGSs cant sell the ones they have and wont stock them. They'll order you one for a nonrefundable deposit. Average trade in here for a G22 ( and I've seen NIB samples get this) is 150.00. The largest LE distributor in my state can barely give them away.

This is not a shot at your observations or the viability/popularity/effectiveness of the caliber. Just my observations and knowledge of the industry trends, at least in my market

[spinmove_]

It’s not going back into general favor so much as the general populace likes cheap guns. It’s big in competition circles as stated earlier for obvious reasons, but it’s not really seen that much of an uptick there for that reason.

PDs are offloading their .40S&W guns because they’re moving to 9mm. They then typically are sold used at pretty good prices. People see the deals and then scoop them up.

Managing .40S&W isn’t generally that big a deal. There’s a difference, but it’s generally not THAT big a difference. But it does wear guns out way faster in general and that’s part of why I dislike it.

[GardoneVT]

.40 S&W is more comfortable to shoot out of .45 Auto frames in its parent caliber.

[CCT125US]

Quick search online shows a used G22 for $289 and a case of Tula at $200 for a total of $489
Same vendor lists a used G17 for $429 and a case of Tula at $140 for a total of $569

Considering the .40 cal price starts with a 2, and the 9mm starts with a 4, that can be appealing.

Add in certain vendors trying to dump .40 and you can save even more on ammo.

My time spent on a sub compact .40 was well worth it. I actually sort of wish I hadn't sold it off.

[OlongJohnson]

It's a great time to pick up a USP .40 full size as a woods gun. If you aren't around big bears, there's no need for .45 Super.

[Sammy1]

Define comeback. Agencies are dumping the caliber in mass in my region, and my LGSs cant sell the ones they have and wont stock them. They'll order you one for a nonrefundable deposit. Average trade in here for a G22 ( and I've seen NIB samples get this) is 150.00. The largest LE distributor in my state can barely give them away.

This is not a shot at your observations or the viability/popularity/effectiveness of the caliber. Just my observations and knowledge of the industry trends, at least in my market

It won't make a comeback as far as a LE cartridge or serious training round (ie high volume shooters) but I've seen a complete turnaround with civilian shooters. A couple of years ago most at the range weren't shooting 40 and didn't care for it as a round. Lately, I'm seeing allot of people with 40S&W pistols.

[Trooper224]

It won't make a comeback as far as a LE cartridge or serious training round (ie high volume shooters) but I've seen a complete turnaround with civilian shooters. A couple of years ago most at the range weren't shooting 40 and didn't care for it as a round. Lately, I'm seeing allot of people with 40S&W pistols.


You'll see that change as soon as the police surplus wave of .40s dries up.

[CWM11B]

I get that, but what is the sample size? The commercial market sales numbers dont support the assertion from what I've seen from my contacts.

[ST911]

If capacity restrictions become more common, then I would expect both .40 and .45 to become more popular. It appears that Virginia may be headed that way, and Pittsburgh’s most recent attempt was shut down in court. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think that was true for AWB94, but won't be a second time around. Too many shootable compact and micro 9s in 7-10rd capacities now.

[Sammy1]

I get that, but what is the sample size? The commercial market sales numbers dont support the assertion from what I've seen from my contacts.

True, I belong to a small gun club and the sample size isn't big.

[TCB]

.40 can’t go away fast enough. Once I shoot all I have on hand and reload my stockpiled components I’ll sell off my last remaining gun in that caliber. It’s only really good (to me) for gaming to make major in the 2011 platform.

[spence]

I’ve kept a couple of my .40s even after switching to 9. I’ve become fairly high volume with Berettas and won’t be switching back any time soon, but if ammo gets hard to come by and .40 is there, I’ll shoot it. That said the XD40 got a 9 barrel put in it, and that’s on the list for the G22, as well. Better economically than trading guns, especially since I don’t care much for those platforms these days.

The public outdoor range I shoot at, somebody likes .40. I regularly find one or two brands .40 brass as I’m picking up my own.

[Bigghoss]

I've never been a .40 fan but with trade-ins being so cheap I had to buy a few. I might grab a couple more to leave with family so I can fly there to visit and just take a carry-on bag and not have to check anything.

[sparkyfender]

They seem to be gaining a bit more popularity locally. They seem to be moving, although slowly, at the 3 or 4 LGS I frequent, where a short while ago they were just gathering dust.

The price tags have seen a slight rise too, even for the used used .40 handguns. Just a few bucks, but still......

I like .40, just don't shoot it or carry it as much as I used to 10 years ago or so.

[willie]

I have a P2000 357 Sig with a second factory barrel in 40 S&W. Too I have a large quantity of ammo in each caliber and many factory mags for each. They differ very slightly but do interchange. I like the combination because I have too much money in it to dislike it. Each barrel shoots reliably.

[Sammy1]

I got away from 40cal, just got rid of my last one and then bought a red box P320 40 cal for $349.00. It appears to be NIB. Great shooter.

[JonInWA]

I agree that low market prices as opposed to true desire for the .40 over 9mm, etc. are probably significantly driving current .40 acquisitions.

A couple of my thoughts:

1. I strongly suspect that most pistol acquirers probably don't shoot their pistols in significant enough amounts after the acquisition to master them, or be able to intelligently discern the differences between them and a different caliber in the same or similar platform-the lower initial acquisition price (for admittedly decent weapons) is driving the train, before the pistol is shoved in a sock drawer...;

2. A well designed .40 can dampen down and tame the pressure spike and recoil characteristics of the .40; HKs come immediately to mind, with their purpose- and caliber-driven architectures and RSA design. A key, long suspected by p-f conoscenti seems to be the combination of a heavier slide and an intelligently designed/tuned RSA.

3. While the .40 is an established and viable cartridge for many venues/likely scenarios, I suspect that where it's starting to establish itself as a viable niche cartridge is for backcountry/wilderness use, combined with cartridges designed and manufactured by some of the boutique outfits, such as Underwood with their Underwood Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator and Defender lines, making a .40 and 9mm platform viable against dangerous game-and especially with lighter, more weather-impervious, easily and minimally maintained and higher capacity polymer-framed pistols can make for a paradigm shift in wilderness protection, away from heavier, larger-calibered, relatively limited capacity revolvers, which are generally more weather susceptible and significantly more difficult to disassemble if needed in a field environment. My personal case in point, for what it's worth: When handgun hunting with my excellent, tuned Ruger Blackhawk, I concurrently carry either my Gen 3 Glock G21 in .45 ACP or Gen4 G22 as protection backup against fast moving dangerous game...

4. While LEOs are indeed shifting in significant numbers from .40(and probably .45 ACP) platforms to 9mm ones, I would be willing to suggest that those organizations with a significant history or perceived concern where increased media penetration is desirable will continue to maintain at least partial issue of .40 platforms; I'm thinking Highway Patrol/State Police and more rural police/sheriff departments.

5. Performance rather than capacity per se will be more of a platform/caliber determinant as we move on, especially between .40 and 9mm choices.

6. While more culturally and historically embedded, I suspect that over time .45 ACP will see significantly diminished use and platform sales, as it strikes me as being effectually book-ended between 9mm and .40, without providing an inherent objectively definable performance value over either, as well as generally necessitating a larger platform for use.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

Sorry, guys-double post due to server vicissitudes...

Best, Jon

[Grouse870]

I enjoy the .40 (as well as 9mm and .45) just like above I think it will take off in more of a woods role. A 5” .40 loaded with some 200 grain hard cast or some Leigh penetrators should work for all but the biggest woods issues.

[10mmfanboy]

I like a duplicate gun in 40, because I find I start slacking with my grip shooting 9mm all the time. The right gun in 40 makes it feel not really any different than some guns in 9mm. I started at 45 acp, then 357 sig then to 10mm and 40. I am glad I did too.

[deputyG23]

I agree that low market prices as opposed to true desire for the .40 over 9mm, etc. are probably significantly driving current .40 acquisitions.

A couple of my thoughts:

1. I strongly suspect that most pistol acquirers probably don't shoot their pistols in significant enough amounts after the acquisition to master them, or be able to intelligently discern the differences between them and a different caliber in the same or similar platform-the lower initial acquisition price (for admittedly decent weapons) is driving the train, before the pistol is shoved in a sock drawer...;

2. A well designed .40 can dampen down and tame the pressure spike and recoil characteristics of the .40; HKs come immediately to mind, with their purpose- and caliber-driven architectures and RSA design. A key, long suspected by p-f conoscenti seems to be the combination of a heavier slide and an intelligently designed/tuned RSA.

3. While the .40 is an established and viable cartridge for many venues/likely scenarios, I suspect that where it's starting to establish itself as a viable niche cartridge is for backcountry/wilderness use, combined with cartridges designed and manufactured by some of the boutique outfits, such as Underwood with their Underwood Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator and Defender lines, making a .40 and 9mm platform viable against dangerous game-and especially with lighter, more weather-impervious, easily and minimally maintained and higher capacity polymer-framed pistols can make for a paradigm shift in wilderness protection, away from heavier, larger-calibered, relatively limited capacity revolvers, which are generally more weather susceptible and significantly more difficult to disassemble if needed in a field environment. My personal case in point, for what it's worth: When handgun hunting with my excellent, tuned Ruger Blackhawk, I concurrently carry either my Gen 3 Glock G21 in .45 ACP or Gen4 G22 as protection backup against fast moving dangerous game...

4. While LEOs are indeed shifting in significant numbers from .40(and probably .45 ACP) platforms to 9mm ones, I would be willing to suggest that those organizations with a significant history or perceived concern where increased media penetration is desirable will continue to maintain at least partial issue of .40 platforms; I'm thinking Highway Patrol/State Police and more rural police/sheriff departments.

5. Performance rather than capacity per se will be more of a platform/caliber determinant as we move on, especially between .40 and 9mm choices.

6. While more culturally and historically embedded, I suspect that over time .45 ACP will see significantly diminished use and platform sales, as it strikes me as being effectually book-ended between 9mm and .40, without providing an inherent objectively definable performance value over either, as well as generally necessitating a larger platform for use.

Best, Jon

My nephew is the Sheriff in a SW VA county. His was the first US agency to buy the S&W M&P .40 pistols in the mid 2000's. They have just gotten the 2.0 version and love them and .40 cartridge. His folks are almost all shooters, which helps.
.40 and .45 are dropping like flies in LE use in this part of VA. Everyone around us has traded in .40s and 45s and .357 Sigs in for 9mm pistols.
I just picked up a recently traded G22 G4 in nice shape with all accessories for $299. It needed a detail strip and clean because its prior user must have used a half bottle of Quaker State to lube it.

[Squib308]

supply v demand. everyone moving to 9mm is going to be a disaster when the next ammo panic hits. 9mm demand will spike even worse than in 2012. after sandy hook we all saw shelves with .40 and .357 but not much else. nowadays I would not be surprised if 9mm prices jumped well above .40.

the main reason to own a few pistols in .40 is that ammo will be available at least for the next 10 years. the lack of “demand spike” ensures a steady supply. as a cartridge I am ambivalent about its utility but it clanks the steel nice and is easy to fine...counts for something!

[Joe in PNG]

supply v demand. everyone moving to 9mm is going to be a disaster when the next ammo panic hits. 9mm demand will spike even worse than in 2012. after sandy hook we all saw shelves with .40 and .357 but not much else. nowadays I would not be surprised if 9mm prices jumped well above .40.

the main reason to own a few pistols in .40 is that ammo will be available at least for the next 10 years. the lack of “demand spike” ensures a steady supply. as a cartridge I am ambivalent about its utility but it clanks the steel nice and is easy to fine...counts for something!

I strongly doubt we'll see the same kind of full shelves of .40 & .357sig during the next panic as we did during 2012.

2012 was still at a point where those were a major LEO cartridge, and thus was a commonly loaded caliber. Because it wasn't all that popular with the public, there was a huge backlog of unsold ammo at the time.

With the overall swap to 9mm, I suspect that the various ammo companies have seriously cut back on producing .40 & .357sig.

[mmc45414]

I continue to kinda like it, but only have two pistols left for it. My M&P is setup pretty sweet with nice sights and Apex kit, I am not inclined to sell it for the $250 I could get for it. I also have a Kahr P-40 and it would be a better pistol if it were a P-9, but I have traveled enough miles with it (including in a pouch on my bicycle from Cincinnati to Cleveland) I am gonna keep it.

My actual plan is get a 10mm 1911 because I have always wanted one, and get a barrel for it and shoot up the 3k rounds of my reloads I had stockpiled when nine won me over. Another angle is I have always been curious about a 226 but not $600 curious, and this is interesting:
https://aimsurplus.com/leo-trade-in-sig-sauer-p226-40-sw-pistol/

[beenalongtime]

I seem to shoot my .40 better then my 9mm of the same gun. I do practice more with the nine, due to cost. I really need to take out one of the others (backup) and also try some different ammo weights, to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt to me.

I am trying to build up more ammo. I also have a few guns on my want list, and one I debate getting, is a 229 and because of the LEO cost effective trade in's, I keep thinking about this in a .40. Since it isn't going to be my carry gun, I don't think the caliber is going to be a big deal. In my carry, I prefer to have multiple calibers, in case there is an ammo shortage.

Next year, I really need to get reloading stuff. Getting ready for the holiday tax season, though, so my last big purchase are my LTT's.

[GlockenSpiel]

I'm pretty thrilled with my USP .40 police trade-in. I agree the trade-ins have been popular. Right now you can save a lot of cash with one of these barely-shot .40s, get a more effective round with only a bit more recoil in a full-size gun, at the cost of spending a bit more on ammo in the long term. It actually makes a lot of sense for many people.

And .40 probably will go up in cost a bit in the long term, but it's never going to be like .357 sig or 10mm. There are dozens of .40 guns out there for each one of those other calibers.

[HCM]

I seem to shoot my .40 better then my 9mm of the same gun. I do practice more with the nine, due to cost. I really need to take out one of the others (backup) and also try some different ammo weights, to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt to me.

I am trying to build up more ammo. I also have a few guns on my want list, and one I debate getting, is a 229 and because of the LEO cost effective trade in's, I keep thinking about this in a .40. Since it isn't going to be my carry gun, I don't think the caliber is going to be a big deal. In my carry, I prefer to have multiple calibers, in case there is an ammo shortage.

Next year, I really need to get reloading stuff. Getting ready for the holiday tax season, though, so my last big purchase are my LTT's.

Define “better.” More accurately? Faster ? Are you shooting on the clock ?

My experience across large swaths of LE shooters with 40 is they can match their own accuracy of a comparable 9mm at the expense of speed or they can shoot the 40 at 9mm speed and the wheels start coming off accuracy wise.

I still maintain a few .40s for nostalgia and OPA (Other People’s Ammo). Otherwise they tend to get 9mm conversion barrels. This reminds me I need to pick up a 10mm to 40 conversion barrel for my G20.

[beenalongtime]

Define “better.” More accurately? Faster ? Are you shooting on the clock ?



More accurately, which is why I want to test some other ammo weights at distances, etc. (thinking weight to POA/POI)

[Vista461]

My last gun purchase was a M&P 1.0 .40 former Milwaukee Police Dept gun. Got it from my local police supply store for $279. Not much finish wear, made in 2013 and the night sights still are bright. Came with the 3mags and some Talon grips already installed. Hard to go wrong for that price.

My other 40 is my first issued Duty gun, a RTF 2 G22 with gills. I bought it from my old Dept when we went to Gen 4’s.

[JRB]

The tremendous value in used USP40's piqued my interest - One can regularly find them on Gunbroker for $400-450, sometimes even cheaper for an LEM one. I don't particularly like 40, but I love inexpensive HK's.

[AKDoug]

I still shoot as much .40 as 9. One of my friends is the trainer for a federal LEO agency and the range they practice at requires them to police their brass. I have an endless supply of once fired .40 brass. Frankly, it's easier to reload .40 than 9 for me using a 550 and having to place bullets in the cases by hand. I mainly shoot it at local steel challenge matches where I can lightly load it and capacity of the pistol is not an issue.

Otherwise, .40 would be as useful to me as .45..

[Whirlwind06]

As a reloader the .40 is the bane to my existence :D
9mm fits into the .40 case and the .40 case fits into the .45 case like those Russian dolls.
I sort my brass before cleaning but a few always get into the wet tumbler.

.40 has never been on my radar and at this point it would be another round that I would have to reload for.
I guess it might be worth getting one of these LE trade-in just to have one.

Is the Beretta 96 slide beefed up enough now to handle the .40?
I seem to recall that there were problems with the 96 in the past.

[revchuck38]

I've switched to 9x19 in TDA pistols, but my M&P40 1.0 isn't going anywhere. AAMOF it's my nightstand gun, mounting a TLR-1. I'm an older guy but most of my life I've worked non-physical jobs so my wrists aren't as beat up as some here. I rarely shoot more than 150 rounds when I go to the range, and within that amount the recoil is manageable. I've got the brass and dies and a dozen mags for the gun and enough HST for a couple of years so it doesn't make sense to get rid of it. I might just get a police trade-in twin of it so I have a backup, because reasons. ;)

[HCM]

More accurately, which is why I want to test some other ammo weights at distances, etc. (thinking weight to POA/POI)

We have had the best results with 180 grain. Usually HST.

If you add time pressure you Will likely find better results with the nine.

[TNK]

It is not making a comeback, but it is settling into its place as a niche cartridge for purposes described above in several posts. Yes, there a few pistols that are good for the cartridge: The HK USP, Beretta 96A1 and PX4, and I would now toss in a late arrival, the HK VP40, if you are so inclined. Enjoy.

[Dave T]

Is the 40 S&W making a comeback? One can only hope! (smile)

Dave

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

So it's anecdotal of course... but until earlier this year I was a sales rep for (among other things) a large domestic ammunition manufacturer with a territory that covered two and a half western states. As a result, I darkened the door of just about every place in the area that sold guns and ammunition.

I'd hesitate to call the .40 "dead"... but it certainly ain't what it used to be. My customers reported sales of new and used .40 pistols being virtually nil. Ammunition orders were an order of magnitude higher for 9mm. Heck, even .45 guns and ammo outsold .40 by a significant margin. The guys I worked with that covered other lines or territories reported much the same.

[claymore504]

I would not say it is making a comeback. I think all the hating on it has just died down. When everyone decided 9mm was the way to go, 40SW bashing was cool. Overall it is a great round. Harder on weapons maybe and little more snappy. I think the M&P is excellent in 40SW and I wish I had my M2.0 5 inch 40SW still. I am down to two handguns in 40 and will not let them go, a P229 and P226.

I was much more in to 40SW when the Obama panic was going strong. I could always count on 40SW being available to buy when 9mm and 45 was always out of stock.

[OlongJohnson]

Is the Beretta 96 slide beefed up enough now to handle the .40?
I seem to recall that there were problems with the 96 in the past.

The problem with .40 was never the slide, as those were just temporary metallurgy issues that were resolved before .40 was invented. As I understand it, the 96's problem was with straight dust cover frames and .40. They would crack, which led to the slanted dust cover as a means of adding material in that area. 9mm frames will reach massively greater round counts before cracking in that area, if they ever do. AFAIK, the frames are interchangeable, so if one had an straight dust cover .40 and wanted to shoot it more, swapping frames with a slanted dust cover 9mm would result in two functional firearms.

[HCM]

The problem with .40 was never the slide, as those were just temporary metallurgy issues that were resolved before .40 was invented. As I understand it, the 96's problem was with straight dust cover frames and .40. They would crack, which led to the slanted dust cover as a means of adding material in that area. 9mm frames will reach massively greater round counts before cracking in that area, if they ever do. AFAIK, the frames are interchangeable, so if one had an straight dust cover .40 and wanted to shoot it more, swapping frames with a slanted dust cover 9mm would result in two functional firearms.

The dust cover was one issue with 96s, the other was the slide weight with .40.

You are correct that the issue of slides breaking in the 92s was a temporary and isolated issue caused by both inappropriate ammo and some bad metallurgy. It was WAY over blown.

The standard 92/96 slide was just way too light for 40 cal as was the recoil and locking system. This basically caused the guns to break parts and generally beat them selves to death.

[OlongJohnson]

So what I should do is fit a 9mm barrel and extractor (if they are different) in my 96D and use it as the practice backup for a real 92D.

[JonInWA]

So what I should do is fit a 9mm barrel and extractor (if they are different) in my 96D and use it as the practice backup for a real 92D.

True, but then again, as long as you judiciously lube, replace the springs and locking block on the 92 at prescribed (or even more conservative) intervals, and periodically clean out the extractor channel, your 92D should hold itself together pretty well over time. If nothing else, the XM9/XM10 trials of the 1980s ensured that some intrinsically good pistols were made even better. Beretta 92s, SIG P226s, and Ruger P89s are all noted for having viable longevity well beyond most forecasted expectations.

Of course, creating a 92D out of your 96D would even further the projected lifespan of you "real" 92D...As HCM said, the figurative gun junkyards are littered with 1990s manufacturers' .40s that were in many cases nothing more than re-barrelled 9mms with slightly revised springing (if that). The result was the perception that the .40 would beat a gun to death in relatively short order. Firearms specifically designed around, or thoroughly modified for the cartridge can have excellent durability-but there's no free lunch. One of the siren songs of the .40 was that you could achieve utilization of a higher-powered cartridge in the 9mm platform. While technically true, for real-world longevity, significant re-engineering was required-particularly, heavier slides with concurrently properly calibrated springing seems to be a winning formula.

Best, Jon

[Trooper224]

While at the range for my usual Wednesday session, I had a look at the store inventory.

9mm handguns took up a good 2/3 to 3/4 of the space. The rest was equally shared by pistols in .380, .45 and .22, with one lone .44 mag. The .45s were mostly 1911s, because 'murica. There wasn't a single .40 to be found, new or used. The situation was essentially the same at both Cabela's and Academy, with one lone .40 Beretta 96 at the former.

If you like your .40 by all means, rock on with it. On the other hand, if one is looking for some kind of personal validation that their .40 is what the cool kids carry, go grow a neck beard and get some sleeve tats. Your gat won't get it done.

[JonInWA]

I think the best, most likely to be drama-free and excellent performing .40s out of the box are HKs.

Best, Jon

[JTQ]

This forum is generally critical of S&W M&P 9 accuracy and also of .40 S&W in general.

The S&W M&P has a reputation for decent durability with .40S&W, and in general as a soft shooter, and the .40 S&W versions are not plagued by the 9mm versions accuracy issues.

Is the M&P the gun that may be a better choice in .40S&W than in 9mm? For instance, for somebody that really likes the feature set on the M&P, but is concerned about potential accuracy issues with the 9mm versions, would they be better off choosing the M&P in .40S&W?

[19852+]

I haven't been to my local GS recently but last time I did notice a dearth of 40's under the glass. The 40 will remain a fine game caliber for USPSA limited and single stack. Personally waiting for the long anticipated comeback of the .38 Super Auto.... Which is my favorite non-9 x 19 pistol cartridge.

[revchuck38]

This forum is generally critical of S&W M&P 9 accuracy and also of .40 S&W in general.

The S&W M&P has a reputation for decent durability with .40S&W, and in general as a soft shooter, and the .40 S&W versions are not plagued by the 9mm versions accuracy issues.

Is the M&P the gun that may be a better choice in .40S&W than in 9mm? For instance, for somebody that really likes the feature set on the M&P, but is concerned about potential accuracy issues with the 9mm versions, would they be better off choosing the M&P in .40S&W?

M&P9 accuracy issues were resolved toward the end of the 1.0 production run. Current production ones (2.0) are said to be pretty accurate. I haven't shot a 2.0 in 9x19 so I'm only repeating what I've read. I can vouch for the accuracy of the 1.0s in .40 and .45, the ones I have are excellent.

[LockedBreech]

M&P9 accuracy issues were resolved toward the end of the 1.0 production run. Current production ones (2.0) are said to be pretty accurate. I haven't shot a 2.0 in 9x19 so I'm only repeating what I've read. I can vouch for the accuracy of the 1.0s in .40 and .45, the ones I have are excellent.

My 2.0 Compact 9mm is a laser.

[fly out]

All this crazy talk of SIG LE trade ins...

So, hypothetically, is a 229 a solid vehicle for .40? Or is the 226 a better bet?

[ralph]

I can’t say the .40 cal is making a comeback, and I’m not a real fan of the round, but as was stated earlier, you can’t argue with USP’s in the $350-400 range..

[spinmove_]

All this crazy talk of SIG LE trade ins...

So, hypothetically, is a 229 a solid vehicle for .40? Or is the 226 a better bet?

Arguably the P229 is the better platform for .40S&W as it was originally designed to handle .40S&W. It’s basically a beefier upgraded P228. Not that a P226 can’t handle it, I’m sure it can just fine, but you’ll probably get a bit more life out of a P229.

[spinmove_]

M&P9 accuracy issues were resolved toward the end of the 1.0 production run. Current production ones (2.0) are said to be pretty accurate. I haven't shot a 2.0 in 9x19 so I'm only repeating what I've read. I can vouch for the accuracy of the 1.0s in .40 and .45, the ones I have are excellent.

In general, you could scoop a used 1.0 in 9mm and do some accuracy testing. If it sucks, do Apex’s match grade barrel and drive on. Unsure if the 2.0s exhibit the same issues or not, but I’ve heard a few grumblings, but nothing I can substantiate.

If I happened across a 1.0 or 2.0 used in .40S&W or .45Auto at an insane price, and I had the cash for one, I’d be tempted to scoop it if in decent condition. The .40 with a thumb safety would be a great field pistol. The .45 with a thumb safety is basically a poor man’s polymer 1911.

[fatdog]

..So, hypothetically, is a 229 a solid vehicle for .40?

Not hypothetical, I own a pair of the police trade in's I got about 3 years ago, and it is a very appropriate vehicle for the .40, probably in a tie with the full size USP for the best .40 service pistol imo. I am saying that having owned an M&P40, every size of .40 Glock, a .40 BHP, a .40 converted Colt Delta elite, and Beretta 96 in the past. I owned a .40 P226 back around the turn of the century but I don't remember enough about it to compare it to a P229, sold that one back about 2003. The only two service gun .40's I kept in the stable are the P229 and the USP LEM.

[Sammy1]

In general, you could scoop a used 1.0 in 9mm and do some accuracy testing. If it sucks, do Apex’s match grade barrel and drive on. Unsure if the 2.0s exhibit the same issues or not, but I’ve heard a few grumblings, but nothing I can substantiate.

If I happened across a 1.0 or 2.0 used in .40S&W or .45Auto at an insane price, and I had the cash for one, I’d be tempted to scoop it if in decent condition. The .40 with a thumb safety would be a great field pistol. The .45 with a thumb safety is basically a poor man’s polymer 1911.

I grabbed a police trade-in M&P45 full size for $229.00! Solid gun, fun to shoot.

[Sammy1]

This forum is generally critical of S&W M&P 9 accuracy and also of .40 S&W in general.

The S&W M&P has a reputation for decent durability with .40S&W, and in general as a soft shooter, and the .40 S&W versions are not plagued by the 9mm versions accuracy issues.

Is the M&P the gun that may be a better choice in .40S&W than in 9mm? For instance, for somebody that really likes the feature set on the M&P, but is concerned about potential accuracy issues with the 9mm versions, would they be better off choosing the M&P in .40S&W?

Kyle Lamb says M&P40 is good to go, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orf_zlp3Rdk

[OlongJohnson]

Arguably the P229 is the better platform for .40S&W as it was originally designed to handle .40S&W. It’s basically a beefier upgraded P228. Not that a P226 can’t handle it, I’m sure it can just fine, but you’ll probably get a bit more life out of a P229.

On the other hand, I feel 150 rounds of 9mm in my M11-A1 (P229 without a rail) a lot more than in my P226. Would likely be accentuated with .40. But I do have XXXL hands and the bigger handle of the P226 fits them perfectly.

[Trooper224]

I think the M&P40 is a good gun, far better than the 9mm. Might have something to do with it being designed as a .40 from the outset, hmmmmmm. The M&P45 is one of the nicest .45 plastic service pistols I've had experience with.

A friend, who's a serious shooter, bought two of the 9mm 2.0s, since the issues were supposed to be solved. They seemed to be for the first 500-600 rounds. (Combined count on both guns). They both then opened up with the previous shotgun pattern groups of 5 to 6 inches at 25 yards. He called Smith and was told he could send them in, but they'd just be returned with a note saying they were in spec.

[JBP55]

Define comeback. Agencies are dumping the caliber in mass in my region, and my LGSs cant sell the ones they have and wont stock them. They'll order you one for a nonrefundable deposit. Average trade in here for a G22 ( and I've seen NIB samples get this) is 150.00. The largest LE distributor in my state can barely give them away.

This is not a shot at your observations or the viability/popularity/effectiveness of the caliber. Just my observations and knowledge of the industry trends, at least in my market

A local LEA recently priced new Gen 5 G17 Glocks and was told they would allow about $250 each for their G35 Glocks with night sights.

[bofe954]

A local LEA recently priced new Gen 5 G17 Glocks and was told they would allow about $250 each for their G35 Glocks with night sights.

Not interested in glocks or 40's at all, but I'd be all over a $300 used G35

[revchuck38]

The .45 with a thumb safety is basically a poor man’s polymer 1911.

Except that it's not the whiny little bitch that so many 1911s are. :D

[BehindBlueI's]

All this crazy talk of SIG LE trade ins...

So, hypothetically, is a 229 a solid vehicle for .40? Or is the 226 a better bet?

I have both. A .40 P226 is my second highest round count pistol. It didn't break anything until right about the 40k mark. I broke the decocker lever, which Sig sent me a replacement for. Either slightly before or slightly after that the fiber optic in the factory fiber/night sight combo came out. Sig also replaced that.

I'd have to go back and look at my old training journal entries but I recall I was marginally faster/better with the P226 but it was very marginal. Not "get you kilt in the streetz" differences, more like a few tenths of a second here and there differences. I've switched to 9mm Glocks now so the Sigs just sit in the safe waiting, but I'm not getting rid of any of them.

[Benhou]

this makes me getting a uspc 40

[JRB]

I can’t say the .40 cal is making a comeback, and I’m not a real fan of the round, but as was stated earlier, you can’t argue with USP’s in the $350-400 range..

I just bought an AA date code USP40 V1 in excellent condition with the original grey box and 5 mags for $419 shipped. Such an insane value for the cost, even if you're not a fan of .40 S&W. But I'm buying it to be a multi-caliber project for fun.

Another thing I like about the USP40, is that the USP was designed from the ground up to be a .40 S&W, unlike many of its contemporaries that were beefed-up 9mm designs.

[Exiledviking]

I just bought an AA date code USP40 V1 in excellent condition with the original grey box and 5 mags for $419 shipped. Such an insane value for the cost, even if you're not a fan of .40 S&W.

That's the kind of deal I'm looking for on a USP40 full-size. Wow!

[jnc36rcpd]

My former agency was pretty happy with the .40 226's until we're weren't. We suddenly experienced multiple cracks in the frames beneath the grips which were discovered during annual armorer inspection and detail cleaning. There did not seem to be any correlation with the number of rounds fired. I'm not sure if the age of the weapons was actually checked. SigSauer never gave us an actual answer regarding the cause though I felt their customer service was great.

Unfortunately, I can't offer a comparison to the 229. I had a personally owned 229 and there may have been other off-duty 229's, but I doubt it. We did have a .40 239 with a cracked frame, but I have no idea on the age of the weapon (though, love them as I do, I doubt any of our 239 shooters were repeat students at ITTS or Gunsite).

[fatdog]

.... But I'm buying it to be a multi-caliber project for fun. .

Data point, sample of one, but I bought the IEK Firedragon 9mm and .357 Sig barrels for my USP40, both work just fine, they both feed every type of JHP ammo I tried. I have observed that the accuracy of the 9mm is very good. I am not going to carry either conversion barrel down the street as an EDC but nice to have for practice and making it a mulitcal gun.

I got a factory .357 barrel for my P229, it is quite accurate, and also got the IEK Firedragon 9mm barrel for it. Same results for the IEK barrel, accurate, no malfunctions with the JHP stuff I shot testing or all the practice ammo since.

Since that all worked, I got and IEK Firedragon 9mm barrel for the USP/c 40, and already had the factory .357 barrel for that.

In all three cases I use the factory 9mm magazines for the 9mm conversions and I use the factory 9mm spring in the P229 (use the same springs for 9 & 40/357 in the USP's).

When I travel out of state with one of those guns, I carry a little pouch that has both spare barrels and a pair of magazines in the other caliber plus the spring in the case of the P229. Theory being that if I am far from home and all I can find is one of those calibers for resupply, I can run it.

Being able to practice 9mm is a great side benefit. End of the day my "carry down the street "first choice for those .40 guns will always be the native calibers.

[JRB]

That's the kind of deal I'm looking for on a USP40 full-size. Wow!

It was a buy-it-now on Gunbroker! I didn't even have to bother bidding!
USP40's are priced one of two ways on GB; Never-gonna-sell NOS guns with crazy high prices, or PD/used USP40's from pawn shops, etc that gave $250ish credit and want a fast sale around $400ish. Just keep on top of the guns listed and I'm sure you'll see one worth buying. There was another one I almost got already set up as a match hybrid LEM with two mags with the nicer newer baseplates for $455-ish buy-it-now IIRC. Just a hell of a lot of pistol for the money, no doubt about it.


Data point, sample of one, but I bought the IEK Firedragon 9mm and .357 Sig barrels for my USP40, both work just fine, they both feed every type of JHP ammo I tried. I have observed that the accuracy of the 9mm is very good. I am not going to carry either conversion barrel down the street as an EDC but nice to have for practice and making it a mulitcal gun.

I got a factory .357 barrel for my P229, it is quite accurate, and also got the IEK Firedragon 9mm barrel for it. Same results for the IEK barrel, accurate, no malfunctions with the JHP stuff I shot testing or all the practice ammo since.

Since that all worked, I got and IEK Firedragon 9mm barrel for the USP/c 40, and already had the factory .357 barrel for that.

In all three cases I use the factory 9mm magazines for the 9mm conversions and I use the factory 9mm spring in the P229 (use the same springs for 9 & 40/357 in the USP's).

When I travel out of state with one of those guns, I carry a little pouch that has both spare barrels and a pair of magazines in the other caliber plus the spring in the case of the P229. Theory being that if I am far from home and all I can find is one of those calibers for resupply, I can run it.

Being able to practice 9mm is a great side benefit. End of the day my "carry down the street "first choice for those .40 guns will always be the native calibers.

Dude, this is great info! Thanks!
I'm planning on a 10mm conversion with an enlarged ejection port, modded HK45 mags, and probably a milled slide for an RMR plus a Match V3 trigger setup. The EFK 9mm conversion barrel as well as the .357 SIG barrels are also of interest to me, just from a perspective of how cool it'd be to build a 'shoot all the flavors' range gun. That and I'm an old school HK fanatic and the dream of a 10mm USP is just too freaking sexy to deny.
If it all works great, I'll likely buy a super-beater ugly USP40 just to have another 'chassis' to run with the same ensemble of parts. I figure it'd be a perfect camping/backup gun when my USP45 full of supers isn't needed.

[beenalongtime]

We have had the best results with 180 grain. Usually HST.

If you add time pressure you Will likely find better results with the nine.

Didn't know there was a 9mm 180 grain, as that is what has always shot accurately for me in the .40. That I am trying to find the 9mm ammo that will shot as well.:confused:

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Didn't know there was a 9mm 180 grain, as that is what has always shot accurately for me in the .40. That I am trying to find the 9mm ammo that will shot as well.:confused:


https://seismicammo.com/shop/185gr-9mm-21-round-bonus-pack/

[Borderland]

Haven't seen any cases in the brass bucket where I shoot. Mostly 9 mm and some 45 acp occasionally.

When it starts showing up in the bucket I'll know it's on it's way back.

I once knew a guy that bought a .40 because he had unlimited access to LE brass and that was his only reason for a 40.

I bought a .223/5.56 for the same reason, free brass. Isn't better, just too cheap to buy brass. :o

[willie]

One area of attack for the anti 2A crowd will be lethality of handgun ammo, and they will accomplish this goal state by state. We know that N.J. has been an example for a few years. That federal legislation might support this madness is not far fetched. After hollow point handgun ammo becomes illegal, and civilians are restricted to fmj ammo, and after magazine capacity is restricted, we can expect to see re-emergence of the 40 and 45 caliber handguns. So, if you are a young man or woman, keep what you have. You will need it eventually.

[HCM]

Didn't know there was a 9mm 180 grain, as that is what has always shot accurately for me in the .40. That I am trying to find the 9mm ammo that will shot as well.:confused:

I was referring to .40 cal. The 147 grain would be the equivalent 9mm load.

There are noticeable differences in time performance and “shootability” between various .40 cal loads. Shooting 135 or hot 155 vs 180 grain is similar to shooting .357 mag vs .38 spl out of the same gun.

With 9mm I have not experienced or observed any real difference between various 9mm bulletin weights or between standard and +p loads.

[HCM]

One area of attack for the anti 2A crowd will be lethality of handgun ammo, and they will accomplish this goal state by state. We know that N.J. has been an example for a few years. That federal legislation might support this madness is not far fetched. After hollow point handgun ammo becomes illegal, and civilians are restricted to fmj ammo, and after magazine capacity is restricted, we can expect to see re-emergence of the 40 and 45 caliber handguns. So, if you are a young man or woman, keep what you have. You will need it eventually.

NJ hollowpoint ban is decades old and is not supported by facts. The public safety aspect of hollowpoints not exiting the intended target out weigh that argument, this is why every significant LE Agency in the country, even in NJ and the notoriously liberal NYC issues hollow point ammunition. The better terminal ballistics are secondary but they also contribute to public safety because the few shots needed to stop a threat, the less chance of a miss since every round fired on the street actually hits something.

[willie]

The facts support very little of the anti-2A legislation. Look at anti gun sentiment that's spreading. Consider demographics and don't overlook large urban populations(Seattle is an example)whose progressive voting habits dictate policy to the rest of the state. Much maligned fuds who are knee jerk gun rights supporters are dying out. Fewer persons are buying hunting licenses so this is another segment that will have reduced influence. View the enormous list of Democratic financial supporters, reflect on their billions, reflect on their influence, and then speculate on how this force will impact firearms policy. Last, calculate the number of airheads and snow flakes.

[Jeep]

The facts support very little of the anti-2A legislation. Look at anti gun sentiment that's spreading. Consider demographics and don't overlook large urban populations(Seattle is an example)whose progressive voting habits dictate policy to the rest of the state. Much maligned fuds who are knee jerk gun rights supporters are dying out. Fewer persons are buying hunting licenses so this is another segment that will have reduced influence. View the enormous list of Democratic financial supporters, reflect on their billions, reflect on their influence, and then speculate on how this force will impact firearms policy. Last, calculate the number of airheads and snow flakes.

I have no idea what will happen politically in the future, but I do know that putting all your eggs in one basket can be a bad idea. Thus, I continue to own a few .40's and am not about to sell them.

[beenalongtime]

I was referring to .40 cal. The 147 grain would be the equivalent 9mm load.

There are noticeable differences in time performance and “shootability” between various .40 cal loads. Shooting 135 or hot 155 vs 180 grain is similar to shooting .357 mag vs .38 spl out of the same gun.

With 9mm I have not experienced or observed any real difference between various 9mm bulletin weights or between standard and +p loads.

With my .40, after using up some free ammo I had, all my shooting has been with 180, and it sights well across the guns with different size barrels.
With the 9mm, I did see a huge difference between ammo weights and barrel lengths to hitting POA/POI. While nine may be cheaper for initial practice, it ends up costing more if I have to have different weight and quantities for each gun.

[HCM]

With my .40, after using up some free ammo I had, all my shooting has been with 180, and it sights well across the guns with different size barrels.
With the 9mm, I did see a huge difference between ammo weights and barrel lengths to hitting POA/POI. While nine may be cheaper for initial practice, it ends up costing more if I have to have different weight and quantities for each gun.

POI is not an accuracy and accuracy not under time pressure has no application to the real world.

If your various 9mm pistols shoot to different POI that is a zeroing /sights issue. If they group well with one weight but not others, like the Gen 1 M&Ps that would only group with 147 grain, there is something wrong with your gun.

9mm >40 when time is a factor and in any practical application it is always a factor.

The only cogent argument I’ve seen for 40 vs 9 is slightly better performance when shooting into vehicles.

[beenalongtime]

POI is not an accuracy and accuracy not under time pressure has no application to the real world.

If your various 9mm pistols shoot to different POI that is a zeroing /sights issue. If they group well with one weight but not others, like the Gen 1 M&Ps that would only group with 147 grain, there is something wrong with your gun.

9mm >40 when time is a factor and in any practical application it is always a factor.

The only cogent argument I’ve seen for 40 vs 9 is slightly better performance when shooting into vehicles.

POI should be close to POA, should it not? To me that is an accuracy thing, when determining what you may be liable for using.
Also, it is a subcompact gun, so I expect it is the same issue that a 357 verses 38 has (not full burn before leaving the barrel).

[HCM]

POI should be close to POA, should it not? To me that is an accuracy thing, when determining what you may be liable for using.
Also, it is a subcompact gun, so I expect it is the same issue that a 357 verses 38 has (not full burn before leaving the barrel).

Guns are not magically zeroed. You need to adjust or swap sights to your chosen ammo/ammo type and chosen sight picture.

This is also part of why proper selection of a service pistol starts with selecting duty and training loads.

Expecting a gun to shoot to POI with a variety of ammo is unrealistic. So unrealistic that they make these thinks called adjustable sights to compensate for it. Not to mention with iron sights lighting and vision can play a part.

Since you want to pick nits:

44868

[beenalongtime]

This is also part of why proper selection of a service pistol starts with selecting duty and training loads.

Expecting a gun to shoot to POI with a variety of ammo is unrealistic. So unrealistic that they make these thinks called adjustable sights to compensate for it. Not to mention with iron sights lighting and vision can play a part.


Bolded my point exactly. I found what works well with the .40 and have stuck with it. Bonus, It works well in both size guns.

The same gun, in nine, my last go around as I am still trying to find range ammo, (that works well with carry ammo/cost effective), the subcompact was shooting at least six inches below my point of aim. I have not had the same luck with the brand of ammo, that works in the forty, in the nine.
In my range toy guns, the nine that I have, works fine (full size barrels). So the ammo search continues.

[10mmfanboy]

This reminds me I need to pick up a 10mm to 40 conversion barrel for my G20.

Why? I shoot 40 cal out of my g20 and 29 barrels all the time.

[jeep45238]

In general, you could scoop a used 1.0 in 9mm and do some accuracy testing. If it sucks, do Apex’s match grade barrel and drive on. Unsure if the 2.0s exhibit the same issues or not, but I’ve heard a few grumblings, but nothing I can substantiate.

If I happened across a 1.0 or 2.0 used in .40S&W or .45Auto at an insane price, and I had the cash for one, I’d be tempted to scoop it if in decent condition. The .40 with a thumb safety would be a great field pistol. The .45 with a thumb safety is basically a poor man’s polymer 1911.

I actually did this to compete in CDP for a while, just didn't load the mags beyond 8. It also has the effect of a built-in magwell due to the width difference at the top and bottom of the mag. I performed a lot better than I should have, looking back on it, with 200gr SWC over W231 out of that gun.


I was referring to .40 cal. The 147 grain would be the equivalent 9mm load.

There are noticeable differences in time performance and “shootability” between various .40 cal loads. Shooting 135 or hot 155 vs 180 grain is similar to shooting .357 mag vs .38 spl out of the same gun.

With 9mm I have not experienced or observed any real difference between various 9mm bulletin weights or between standard and +p loads.

Benefit for the handloading out there - a 135 grain .40 can recoil so little compared to a 9mm, but you do have to go below the min. recommended powder loads to achieve it, and it was still spitting fire from unburned powder (and at the higher charges too). I think it has something to do with a 9mm weight bullet, but a 1mm larger dia and running a lower operating pressure due to that, but this was way back in the day before I had a chrono. 155/165 grain loads were hot, 180 was what I expected, 135 was a walk in the park.


Why? I shoot 40 cal out of my g20 and 29 barrels all the time.

I've always heard that it makes the cartridge headspace off the extractor - never made sense to me, since during firing the case head is pushed against the rim, and then the extractor snags the rim. Not saying that it's good to have a gap there, but one of my 9mm 1911's has a larger gap than the other and it runs like a freaking top.

[HCM]

Why? I shoot 40 cal out of my g20 and 29 barrels all the time.

Just be asuse you can doesn’t mean you should.

[HCM]

I actually did this to compete in CDP for a while, just didn't load the mags beyond 8. It also has the effect of a built-in magwell due to the width difference at the top and bottom of the mag. I performed a lot better than I should have, looking back on it, with 200gr SWC over W231 out of that gun.



Benefit for the handloading out there - a 135 grain .40 can recoil so little compared to a 9mm, but you do have to go below the min. recommended powder loads to achieve it, and it was still spitting fire from unburned powder (and at the higher charges too). I think it has something to do with a 9mm weight bullet, but a 1mm larger dia and running a lower operating pressure due to that, but this was way back in the day before I had a chrono. 155/165 grain loads were hot, 180 was what I expected, 135 was a walk in the park.



I've always heard that it makes the cartridge headspace off the extractor - never made sense to me, since during firing the case head is pushed against the rim, and then the extractor snags the rim. Not saying that it's good to have a gap there, but one of my 9mm 1911's has a larger gap than the other and it runs like a freaking top.

Factory 135 grain loads as supplied to DHS were loaded to try and duplicate 125 grain 357 magnum.

Handloading below min powder levels presentsits ownsadety Issues.

[jeep45238]

Factory 135 grain loads as supplied to DHS were loaded to try and duplicate 125 grain 357 magnum.

Handloading below min powder levels presentsits ownsadety Issues.

Didn't know that on the DHS - good to know.

Absolutely agree on the hand loading part - I was much younger, dumber, and didn't know what I didn't know (still don't).

[FNFAN]

Factory 135 grain loads as supplied to DHS were loaded to try and duplicate 125 grain 357 magnum.



How did they work in the field? I like pretty much anything in a bonded 125gr or better at about 1200fps. Don't really care whether it's 9 or 40. We just got our new issue of duty rounds and they went from 165gr GD to 180gr. Asked why the change.... "It's more powerful.":rolleyes:

[HCM]

How did they work in the field? I like pretty much anything in a bonded 125gr or better at about 1200fps. Don't really care whether it's 9 or 40. We just got our new issue of duty rounds and they went from 165gr GD to 180gr. Asked why the change.... "It's more powerful.":rolleyes:

Like crap. Too much flash and blast for most shooters to hit anything and they beat the crap out of the HK’s Which even the hot 155 grain ammo had not done.

The 155 was really too hot for most shooters to control effectively. It worked in actual shootings but so does the 180 grain HST we issue now.

[HCM]

Didn't know that on the DHS - good to know.

Absolutely agree on the hand loading part - I was much younger, dumber, and didn't know what I didn't know (still don't).

For most of the time INS and border patrol issued 155 grain standard JHP, first Remington, the Winchester and federal. It worked but it was hard on guns and a little too much for most shooters to control properly.

CBP/USBP tried issuing the 135 grain for a short period of time and it was a disaster. They did this around the same time we went to the 180 grain. Long story short the 135 was a s**t show and CBP followed us to 180 grain HST.

[TCB]

I got a few boxes of that old 155gr from a salty Agent...it was stupid spicy! A fun trick is to put a single round of it buried in a random magazine full of the current load and give it to someone. I heard the 135gr was even crazier but have never had the opportunity to try any.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I still remember the published specs on the 155 grain Remington: 1200 fps @ 500 ft/lbs. Made me feel all warm and fuzzy back when I thought such things were important.

[HopetonBrown]

My friend is a manager at the local fun store.

He said the only pistols they bother stocking in 40 are G22s & G23s, and that the consignment case is full of 40 and 45, but no 9mm.

[ranger]

Like crap. Too much flash and blast for most shooters to hit anything and they beat the crap out of the HK’s Which even the hot 155 grain ammo had not done.

The 155 was really too hot for most shooters to control effectively. It worked in actual shootings but so does the 180 grain HST we issue now.

I have a couple of boxes of Corbon 40 S&Ws with 135 HPs loaded hot and fast. I bet they are a "blast" to shoot.

[OlongJohnson]

I got a few boxes of that old 155gr from a salty Agent...it was stupid spicy! A fun trick is to put a single round of it buried in a random magazine full of the current load and give it to someone. I heard the 135gr was even crazier but have never had the opportunity to try any.

I picked up a case or two of HST 155gr contract overrun a couple years back. Haven't shot it yet. At least I have a USP full size to launch it.

Note to self: Don't put it in the 96D.

[TCB]

From all reports that stuff destroyed our Berettas. 155gr at 1200FPS is getting you a USPSA power factor of 186...yea, I’m good.

[revchuck38]

Shoot, the 180 grain HST makes a 178 power factor from my full-size M&P, and my handloads are 1 fps slower with the same bullet weight. Works nicely on steel. :)

[HCM]

From all reports that stuff destroyed our Berettas. 155gr at 1200FPS is getting you a USPSA power factor of 186...yea, I’m good.

I broke 3 96D Brigadiers in 4 years and an HK USPC firing pin shooting that stuff.

I shot 100 rounds or so in my USPC a few months back and my hands felt numb like when I use the weed eater for too long.

"Pah'rful stuff."

[HCM]

Shoot, the 180 grain HST makes a 178 power factor from my full-size M&P, and my handloads are 1 fps slower with the same bullet weight. Works nicely on steel. :)

180 grain HST works nicely on people too..... but so does 124 +p Gold Dot.

[revchuck38]

180 grain HST works nicely on people too..... but so does 124 +p Gold Dot.

The M&P pulls nightstand duty, mounting a TLR-1. My carry guns (PX4 for big, P99c for small) are loaded with 124-grain +P HST. :) I'd be fine carrying the M&P again if I had to.

[OlongJohnson]

...and my hands felt numb like when I use the weed eater for too long.

White Ox cotton gloves are preferred by loggers in the PacNW. Nice and cushiony, but kinda breathable and don't get slimy when wet. Which is important when it rains in July and August and you're outside working. Washable.

Also, bicycle handle. I bought the parts and changed mine over. Helped my elbow tendonitis, too.

[AdioSS]

I broke 3 96D Brigadiers in 4 years and an HK USPC firing pin shooting that stuff.

How’d they break?

[HCM]

How’d they break?

1 trigger return spring, 1 extractor and 1 locking block.

[AdioSS]

How did the ammo break those parts?

[HeavyDuty]

One area of attack for the anti 2A crowd will be lethality of handgun ammo, and they will accomplish this goal state by state. We know that N.J. has been an example for a few years. That federal legislation might support this madness is not far fetched. After hollow point handgun ammo becomes illegal, and civilians are restricted to fmj ammo, and after magazine capacity is restricted, we can expect to see re-emergence of the 40 and 45 caliber handguns. So, if you are a young man or woman, keep what you have. You will need it eventually.

This was part of my reasoning when I picked up a G33 and a spare factory G27 barrel and a few mags for it a few years ago. I have no intention on keeping my M&P40c and Shield 40 (just too lazy to sell them in such a depressed market) but wanted the ability to shoot .40 and .357 SIG in a familiar platform. I will keep my late stepfather’s duty Walther P99, though - more as a heirloom than a shooter, though.


NJ hollowpoint ban is decades old and is not supported by facts. The public safety aspect of hollowpoints not exiting the intended target out weigh that argument, this is why every significant LE Agency in the country, even in NJ and the notoriously liberal NYC issues hollow point ammunition. The better terminal ballistics are secondary but they also contribute to public safety because the few shots needed to stop a threat, the less chance of a miss since every round fired on the street actually hits something.

Not supported by facts doesn’t enter into the equation with the antis. If I’m going to be restricted to FMJ at some point in the future, I’d rather it be something bigger and heavier than 9mm.

[Jeep]

I still remember the published specs on the 155 grain Remington: 1200 fps @ 500 ft/lbs. Made me feel all warm and fuzzy back when I thought such things were important.

Well such things can be important. You can get very nice terminal effects out those rounds, and I think the 155 gr. Gold Dot is still on Doc's list. The trouble is you can get more or less equally good effects out of easier-to-shoot rounds, such as 165 and 180 grainers, but those lack the satisfaction of breaking pistols as often.

I mean, how else are you going to convince those in charge that you need a different pistol if your old ones don't break often enough?

[Sammy1]

I broke 3 96D Brigadiers in 4 years and an HK USPC firing pin shooting that stuff.

I shot 100 rounds or so in my USPC a few months back and my hands felt numb like when I use the weed eater for too long.

"Pah'rful stuff."

A friend of mine is a design engineer for a major firearms manufacturer. He told me that when they want to break a 40 cal gun on purposes for testing they use 155 grain bullets.

[HCM]

A friend of mine is a design engineer for a major firearms manufacturer. He told me that when they want to break a 40 cal gun on purposes for testing they use 155 grain bullets.

I believe it

That is also a testament to the fact that after the fall of human civilization there will be cockroaches in HKUSP compacts...

[Stumpnav]

After the Miami shootout and we moved from 9mm to 40, who would have thought we would be back to the 9mm? If something happens and the FBI does another test, they might prove a bigger bullet would work better and we are back to the 40.

[spinmove_]

After the Miami shootout and we moved from 9mm to 40, who would have thought we would be back to the 9mm? If something happens and the FBI does another test, they might prove a bigger bullet would work better and we are back to the 40.

The FBI did do another test. That’s why they moved back to 9mm. Everyone else is following suit because they don’t have the budget to do the proper testing to make those determinations.

[Joe in PNG]

The FBI did do another test. That’s why they moved back to 9mm. Everyone else is following suit because they don’t have the budget to do the proper testing to make those determinations.

And the problem in Miami wasn't that the one bullet wasn't wide enough, but that it didn't penetrate enough, if we really want to grossly simplify.

Actually, the bigger problem is that tons and tons and tons of derp have been generated by that one incident, usually by the ignorant trying to justify their prejudices.

Had it been a .45 which had a failure to stop (like with Baby Face Nelson), the whole incident would have been deep sixed by most of the gun world- like most failures of the fotay five.

[Spartan1980]

This forum is generally critical of S&W M&P 9 accuracy and also of .40 S&W in general.

The S&W M&P has a reputation for decent durability with .40S&W, and in general as a soft shooter, and the .40 S&W versions are not plagued by the 9mm versions accuracy issues.

Is the M&P the gun that may be a better choice in .40S&W than in 9mm? For instance, for somebody that really likes the feature set on the M&P, but is concerned about potential accuracy issues with the 9mm versions, would they be better off choosing the M&P in .40S&W?

Given your criteria only of accuracy, in my experience....Probably.

In my safe resides a M&P FS, a Pro, and 2 Shields, all in 9mm and all in 1.0.

I also have a plain jane 1.0 .40 with a factory .357 Sig barrel purchased from Midway. With the Sig barrel I can pick off broken pieces of clays on the back berm at my favorite bay at will. That's not on the timer and is benched. I can't do it with any predictability with the FS or the Pro 9mm. I'm sure the 9's meet S&W design specs for accuracy in the platform, I've heard of far worse accuracy issues than mine exhibit, but they ain't bullseye guns by any stretch. My .357 is like a damn laser. Did all the tolerance stacking just align up like the stars? Who knows? But it's very distinct difference. The .40 barrel ain't bad but still not with the Sig. I won't carry the Sig, because after about 3 to 4 mags extraction drops off like a rock until I scrub the chamber. It's smooth and well machined and just shoots "lights out". I really wish I could hear why this is so. I can run 100's of rounds through the .40 barrel and not have an issue at all. Enough with the thread jack.

I sold my M&P .45 and it also was plenty accurate, it just didn't get used. It was a very early model and may have been one machined for the .gov trial requirements. And right after I sold it they start showing up as trade-ins for cheap. That's a gun that is damned hard not to just back up the truck to load up on at that pricing.

[Stumpnav]

The FBI did do another test. That’s why they moved back to 9mm. Everyone else is following suit because they don’t have the budget to do the proper testing to make those determinations.

That’s my point...at some point, the FBI will have an incident that causes them to do another test and they will come back that they need a bigger bullet.
The fact is that what the FBI does, others will follow.

[URIT]

The FBI decision to move from 40 to 9 was a cost savings decision and that is the reason other LE agencies and departments are doing the same. The real analysis was conducted by bean counters. I believe we would see a major shift in weaponry if LEOs were forced to buy their own service weapon and ammo.

[BehindBlueI's]

The FBI decision to move from 40 to 9 was a cost savings decision and that is the reason other LE agencies and departments are doing the same. The real analysis was conducted by bean counters. I believe we would see a major shift in weaponry if LEOs were forced to buy their own service weapon and ammo.

Bullshit.

My department tested several cartridges independently of the FBI and arrived at the same conclusions. Differences between our 180gr .40 Federal Tactical Bonded and the 147gr HST were angels dancing on pinheads, one would penetrate a smidge more in one protocol, the other expand a bit more in another, and at the end of the day they both worked just fine.

As far as 1986 shootouts, unless you're considering running a 115gr Silvertip, it's irrelevant. Bullet construction matters more than caliber these days.

[WobblyPossum]

Bullshit.

My department tested several cartridges independently of the FBI and arrived at the same conclusions. Differences between our 180gr .40 Federal Tactical Bonded and the 147gr HST were angels dancing on pinheads, one would penetrate a smidge more in one protocol, the other expand a bit more in another, and at the end of the day they both worked just fine.

As far as 1986 shootouts, unless you're considering running a 115gr Silvertip, it's irrelevant. Bullet construction matters more than caliber these days.

The beauty of the FBI testing is that it’s scientific, meaning that it’s repeatable. The FBI has documented the exact standards to set up calibrated ordinance gelatin and the protocols for testing ammunition through intermediate barriers. The staff of the FBI Ballistic Research Facility is also happy to share the results and testing standards with any LE agency that asks. Anyone can duplicate the testing and would arrive at the same results using ammunition that is currently available. The testing would be very expensive and time consuming though and the VAST majority of LE agencies do not have the resources to try it.

Have any of the posters criticizing the FBI’s testing actually seen the results? I’ve not met someone yet who has actually seen the results and claimed that they are anything but legit. Whether or not the results convince them that 9mm is a better choice for agency issue is a different story.

[WobblyPossum]

I believe we would see a major shift in weaponry if LEOs were forced to buy their own service weapon and ammo.

Sure, but the shift would be to the cheapest guns featured in the slickest ads chambered in whichever caliber the officer picked as their favorite based on everything except actual testing. There would be Springfield XDs or Tauruses in duty holsters from sea to shining sea. I’m disappointed to admit it but the majority of us don’t shoot outside of agency mandated training or really care enough about guns and shooting to do research, testing, or even practice on our own time and dime.

[LockedBreech]

Sure, but the shift would be to the cheapest guns featured in the slickest ads chambered in whichever caliber the officer picked as their favorite based on everything except actual testing. There would be Springfield XDs or Tauruses in duty holsters from sea to shining sea. I’m disappointed to admit it but the majority of us don’t shoot outside of agency mandated training or really care enough about guns and shooting to do research, testing, or even practice on our own time and dime.

One of the agencies I work with has a "bring your own" policy and one of my oldest deputies, who is an excellent DWUI investigator, carries a Springfield XD in .40 S&W. It provokes a degree of dismay in me since I don't consider that a duty-reliable firearm, but I keep my mouth shut because the last thing a 28-year vet cop needs is some nerdy-ass gun nut lawyer telling him his business.

....I have come real close to gifting him my HK P30 though.

[Balisong]

One of the agencies I work with has a "bring your own" policy and one of my oldest deputies, who is an excellent DWUI investigator, carries a Springfield XD in .40 S&W. It provokes a degree of dismay in me since I don't consider that a duty-reliable firearm, but I keep my mouth shut because the last thing a 28-year vet cop needs is some nerdy-ass gun nut lawyer telling him his business.

....I have come real close to gifting him my HK P30 though.

Christmas is coming up and I wouldn't mind another P30.....

[HCM]

The FBI decision to move from 40 to 9 was a cost savings decision and that is the reason other LE agencies and departments are doing the same. The real analysis was conducted by bean counters. I believe we would see a major shift in weaponry if LEOs were forced to buy their own service weapon and ammo.


Bullshit.

My department tested several cartridges independently of the FBI and arrived at the same conclusions. Differences between our 180gr .40 Federal Tactical Bonded and the 147gr HST were angels dancing on pinheads, one would penetrate a smidge more in one protocol, the other expand a bit more in another, and at the end of the day they both worked just fine.

As far as 1986 shootouts, unless you're considering running a 115gr Silvertip, it's irrelevant. Bullet construction matters more than caliber these days.

I call Bullshit as well.

My agency with 15,000 LEOs did it’s own testing of both 9mm duty ammo, the effects on officer performance with 40 vs 9mm and duty guns.

We went 9mm because is provided the same terminal ballistics in apavkage that was easier to carry and easier to shoot well under stress and time pressure. We decided to stick with 124 grain +P vs the FBIs 147 and we went Sig instead of Glock.

The TX DPS reached the same conclusion before the FBI did, going from .357 SIG to +P+ 9mm. In addition to cost and performance, the logistics of acquiring large quantities of a caliber that is made in batches rather than constant production was a factor. Like my agency DPS is large enough to do their own testing.

[HCM]

The FBI decision to move from 40 to 9 was a cost savings decision and that is the reason other LE agencies and departments are doing the same. The real analysis was conducted by bean counters. I believe we would see a major shift in weaponry if LEOs were forced to buy their own service weapon and ammo.


Sure, but the shift would be to the cheapest guns featured in the slickest ads chambered in whichever caliber the officer picked as their favorite based on everything except actual testing. There would be Springfield XDs or Tauruses in duty holsters from sea to shining sea. I’m disappointed to admit it but the majority of us don’t shoot outside of agency mandated training or really care enough about guns and shooting to do research, testing, or even practice on our own time and dime.

DanM is spot on here.

Most cops are not gun people. Some care enough to make sure they are proficient with their issues or required equipment but otherwise they are not spending money time or effort thinking about guns. As the late Francis McGee, lieutenant in charge of the NYPD firearms training section once said “the average cop would rather have a nice Parker pen than a custom pistol.”

The other issue is the only thing cheaper than a cop, is two cops .

[spinmove_]

That’s my point...at some point, the FBI will have an incident that causes them to do another test and they will come back that they need a bigger bullet.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that. Reason being is testing protocol and what they’re actually testing. Back in the 80’s bullet construction wasn’t what it is today. Therefore 115gr Silvertip didn’t and still doesn't meet today’s preferred standards. What are today’s standards? Penetration between 12” and 18” while performing through various barriers (i.e. bare gel, 4 layers of denim, heavy clothing, sheetrock, plywood, sheet metal, and auto glass).

Notice how the criteria is distinctly devoid of an expansion diameter? All they want from expansion is that it’s reliable and consistent from bullet to bullet so that it meets penetration depths and doesn’t over penetrate. Crushing, cutting, or tearing flesh is just icing on the cake and a by-product of how the bullet was constructed and designed to expand.

Who knows, maybe they will find a reason why a bigger and/or heavier bullet is needed. But my guess is that if they ever do, it’ll be WAY far down the line and it’ll be due to some crazy way how bullets are constructed in 2019 simply aren’t good enough for taking down humans which haven’t compositionally changed in quite some time or there is a new barrier material that needs to be penetrated. The funny thing about penetrating barriers is though: physics dictates that you typically need a smaller diameter while also traveling at a faster rate in order to ensure penetration.

[HCM]

I SERIOUSLY doubt that. Reason being is testing protocol and what they’re actually testing. Back in the 80’s bullet construction wasn’t what it is today. Therefore 115gr Silvertip didn’t and still doesn't meet today’s preferred standards. What are today’s standards? Penetration between 12” and 18” while performing through various barriers (i.e. bare gel, 4 layers of denim, heavy clothing, sheetrock, plywood, sheet metal, and auto glass).

Notice how the criteria is distinctly devoid of an expansion diameter? All they want from expansion is that it’s reliable and consistent from bullet to bullet so that it meets penetration depths and doesn’t over penetrate. Crushing, cutting, or tearing flesh is just icing on the cake and a by-product of how the bullet was constructed and designed to expand.

Who knows, maybe they will find a reason why a bigger and/or heavier bullet is needed. But my guess is that if they ever do, it’ll be WAY far down the line and it’ll be due to some crazy way how bullets are constructed in 2019 simply aren’t good enough for taking down humans which haven’t compositionally changed in quite some time or there is a new barrier material that needs to be penetrated. The funny thing about penetrating barriers is though: physics dictates that you typically need a smaller diameter while also traveling at a faster rate in order to ensure penetration.

Not only was bullet construction in the 1980s not what it is today but the testing process for terminal ballistics was not what it is today either.

It’s hard to pick the right answer when you aren’t even asking the right question.

The current test protocols, particularly the 4 layer denim test, have been extensively correlated with real world shooting results.

[deputyG23]

I have no idea what will happen politically in the future, but I do know that putting all your eggs in one basket can be a bad idea. Thus, I continue to own a few .40's and am not about to sell them.

I remember when 9mm was unobtainable or expensive just a few years ago. .40 was almost always available. I will try to keep at least a couple of .40s around if all possible even after my work switches to 9mm in a year or two if I haven't retired by then.

[TC215]

The FBI decision to move from 40 to 9 was a cost savings decision and that is the reason other LE agencies and departments are doing the same. The real analysis was conducted by bean counters. I believe we would see a major shift in weaponry if LEOs were forced to buy their own service weapon and ammo.


Bullshit.

My department tested several cartridges independently of the FBI and arrived at the same conclusions. Differences between our 180gr .40 Federal Tactical Bonded and the 147gr HST were angels dancing on pinheads, one would penetrate a smidge more in one protocol, the other expand a bit more in another, and at the end of the day they both worked just fine.

As far as 1986 shootouts, unless you're considering running a 115gr Silvertip, it's irrelevant. Bullet construction matters more than caliber these days.

I’m looking at the FBI study/presentation as I type this. It’s pretty well done, and mirrors the opinions of people here that know what they’re talking about. There are 5 main reasons listed for the switch, and cost is not one of them. They do mention later on that there will be cost savings on training ammunition annually, but that was hardly a driving factor.

[deputyG23]

I’m looking at the FBI study/presentation as I type this. It’s pretty well done, and mirrors the opinions of people here that know what they’re talking about. There are 5 main reasons listed for the switch, and cost is not one of them. They do mention later on that there will be cost savings on training ammunition annually, but that was hardly a driving factor.

Practice ammo costs will go down, but duty ammo costs will most likely be a wash if the same sized 9mm gun is selected as the previous .40. Two more duty rounds in each mag carried.

[URIT]

I’m looking at the FBI study/presentation as I type this. It’s pretty well done, and mirrors the opinions of people here that know what they’re talking about. There are 5 main reasons listed for the switch, and cost is not one of them. They do mention later on that there will be cost savings on training ammunition annually, but that was hardly a driving factor.

I hope this FBI study settled your earlier concerns about the 9mm cartridge.

There are very few things that stir a more passionate debate among LEOs than handgun calibers. We often hear FBI study results used to justify a position even though we know there are a lot of factors that never get discussed.

I suspect the FBI had to change back to 9mm because their agents couldn't handle the .40S&W much better than they could the 10mm. Don't forget that it was the same folks who hurriedly blessed the 10mm and subsequently claimed they invented the .40 caliber that ultimately decided that the new improved 9mm was best. I'm sure there are still some special agents that don't appear so special after range qualification even with a 9mm in hand.

Agency and department heads who want to increase their budget need to get that approved by the politicians that hold the purse strings. The budget increase is accomplished by large agencies and departments through a budget analyst (bean counter) who acts as the go-between for administrators and politicians. These two entities are often seated at opposing ends of a motivational teeter-totter and it is the analyst who clears the muddy waters.

Now, we must not forget to mention one of the agencies or departments' most valuable asset - the grant writer. There would be little hope for most real needs budget line increases without grant monies.

Here is an article that the outlines why the FBI changed... https://sofrep.com/gear/the-reasons-why-fbi-went-to-back-to-9mm/

Here is another article that discusses the history of the .40 caliber cartridge. I was surprised by some of the historical facts I learned here... https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/praise-clearly-superior-40-sw-cartridge/

[HCM]

I hope this FBI study settled your earlier concerns about the 9mm cartridge.

There are very few things that stir a more passionate debate among LEOs than handgun calibers. We often hear FBI study results used to justify a position even though we know there are a lot of factors that never get discussed.

I suspect the FBI had to change back to 9mm because their agents couldn't handle the .40S&W much better than they could the 10mm. Don't forget that it was the same folks who hurriedly blessed the 10mm and subsequently claimed they invented the .40 caliber that ultimately decided that the new improved 9mm was best. I'm sure there are still some special agents that don't appear so special after range qualification even with a 9mm in hand.

Agency and department heads who want to increase their budget need to get that approved by the politicians that hold the purse strings. The budget increase is accomplished by large agencies and departments through a budget analyst (bean counter) who acts as the go-between for administrators and politicians. These two entities are often seated at opposing ends of a motivational teeter-totter and it is the analyst who clears the muddy waters.

Now, we must not forget to mention one of the agencies or departments' most valuable asset - the grant writer. There would be little hope for most real needs budget line increases without grant monies.

Here is an article that the outlines why the FBI changed... https://sofrep.com/gear/the-reasons-why-fbi-went-to-back-to-9mm/

Here is another article that discusses the history of the .40 caliber cartridge. I was surprised by some of the historical facts I learned here... https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/praise-clearly-superior-40-sw-cartridge/

I was going to ask what you base your speculation about why the FBI “had” (your words) to “change back” to 9mm but since the FBI is not resuming use of the duty load they used in the SIG P228s and they have authorized various 9mm loads in personally owned weapons and some issued G17s and 19s for at least 15 years, they are not really going “back” to anything.

I was also going to ask your FAST times, B8 scores and scores on the FBI Handgun qual course but then I saw you cite SOFREP and TTAG as legitimate sources of information and realized you aren’t to be taken seriously.

Not to mention your tone makes it clear that you think the real issue is here is that the FBI is full of Wymenz and Accountants who can’t handle “real guns.”

The FBI is a bell curve like every other LE Agency and military unit. You have 10-15% high achievers” a big group in the middle who are competent to the level of their training and required standards and 15% of struggling shooters.

How much experience do you have dealing with “institutional” shooters? Based on thta bell curve you have to deal with three groups - 1/3 that want to be there, 1/3 who just want to check the box and 1/3 who are only there because they have to be.

[URIT]

I was going to ask what you base your speculation about why the FBI “had” (your words) to change back to 9mm and what your FAST times, B8 scores and scores on the FBI Handgun qual course are.

But then I saw you cite SOFREP and TTAG as legitimate sources of information and realized you aren’t to be taken seriously.

You're a FAST reader. Ten minutes between my post and yours. I focused on content rather than the source.

I suspect the FBI "had" to change back to maintain their leadership role in the LE community and get their agents back on target.

[TC215]

I hope this FBI study settled your earlier concerns about the 9mm cartridge.

There are very few things that stir a more passionate debate among LEOs than handgun calibers. We often hear FBI study results used to justify a position even though we know there are a lot of factors that never get discussed.

I suspect the FBI had to change back to 9mm because their agents couldn't handle the .40S&W much better than they could the 10mm. Don't forget that it was the same folks who hurriedly blessed the 10mm and subsequently claimed they invented the .40 caliber that ultimately decided that the new improved 9mm was best. I'm sure there are still some special agents that don't appear so special after range qualification even with a 9mm in hand.

Agency and department heads who want to increase their budget need to get that approved by the politicians that hold the purse strings. The budget increase is accomplished by large agencies and departments through a budget analyst (bean counter) who acts as the go-between for administrators and politicians. These two entities are often seated at opposing ends of a motivational teeter-totter and it is the analyst who clears the muddy waters.

Now, we must not forget to mention one of the agencies or departments' most valuable asset - the grant writer. There would be little hope for most real needs budget line increases without grant monies.

Here is an article that the outlines why the FBI changed... https://sofrep.com/gear/the-reasons-why-fbi-went-to-back-to-9mm/

Here is another article that discusses the history of the .40 caliber cartridge. I was surprised by some of the historical facts I learned here... https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/praise-clearly-superior-40-sw-cartridge/

I didn’t have any “earlier concerns” about 9mm. Not sure where you got that. I also don’t care about a SOFREP article, as I have the actual study.

I have good friend that TDY’d to the FBI FTU while testing was going on before the transition to 9mm. He was a diehard .45 guy (he was on the regional SWAT team at the time and issued a Pro 1911), and even he was excited about switching to 9mm after what he saw. There’s not some secret reason why they switched; they lay it all out, and it’s pretty straight forward.

[HCM]

You're a FAST reader. Ten minutes between my post and yours. I focused on content rather than the source.

I suspect the FBI "had" to change back to maintain their leadership role in the LE community and get their agents back on target.

And you would be wrong.

Speaking of LE ?

How much experience do you have in LE ? LE firearms ? With the FBI ? In other words what are you basing your speculation on ?

Because if you knew anything about the FBIs “leadership in the LE community” you would know it has a lot more to do with their National Academy program for state and local LE leadership than anything to do with firearms.

The fact the FBI is one of a dozen or two dozen agencies in the U.S. with the resources to do actual Scientific, repeatable, firearms and ammunition testing is the other. As already discussed in in this thread the other federal state and local agencies with those resources have reached the same conclusion as the FBI in their own testing.

Speculation and informed speculation are two different things. The fact that those in this thread with actual professional experience in LE firearms programs, investigating shootings and treating gunshot wounds are all reaching the same conclusions as the FBI is what even the FBI would have to call a clue.

Another factor is the Equipment replacement cycle. When you actually shoot and use guns they wear out like any other mechanical device. The FBI adopted Gen 3 .40 caliber Glocks in the mid 1990s, 20-25 years ago. Regardless of the merits of .40, the Gen 3 Glocks in 40 are nkt the most durable .40 service pistols. Many reached the end of their service life and had to be replaced with something, even if they had stuck with .40 but it certainly makes for it a logical time to switch calibers.

[TGS]

URIT,

Is this just something you're hypothesizing about, or do you have any evidence to back up your assertions?

[URIT]

I didn’t have any “earlier concerns” about 9mm. Not sure where you got that. I also don’t care about a SOFREP article, as I have the actual study.

I have good friend that TDY’d to the FBI FTU while testing was going on before the transition to 9mm. He was a diehard .45 guy (he was on the regional SWAT team at the time and issued a Pro 1911), and even he was excited about switching to 9mm after what he saw. There’s not some secret reason why they switched; they lay it all out, and it’s pretty straight forward.

Mea Copa. I saw your handle on the Doubts about 9mm thread which was probably in the last posted column when I looked. Is there a link to the actual study? The SOFREP article only listed justifications presented in a letter sent out to other agencies and departments about the change.

To answer others' questions. My opinions are based on facts, myths, and folklore like many others who post on this forum. My sister-in-law's husband was an FBI special agent when they transitioned to 10mm, and his comments at the family gatherings were not favorable. I admit that his comments influenced my belief that political pressure was a greater influence than science. I am part of a LE family. I worked for a department of 900+ sworn officers and wore the badge for over 33 years, my wife worked support-staff positions for over 20 years, my FTO recruit and later partner married one of my sisters. Yes, I can shoot a handgun and even got a department trophy.

[HCM]

Mea Copa. I saw your handle on the Doubts about 9mm thread which was probably in the last posted column when I looked. Is there a link to the actual study? The SOFREP article only listed justifications presented in a letter sent out to other agencies and departments about the change.

To answer others' questions. My opinions are based on facts, myths, and folklore like many others who post on this forum. My sister-in-law's husband was an FBI special agent when they transitioned to 10mm, and his comments at the family gatherings were not favorable. I admit that his comments influenced my belief that political pressure was a greater influence than science. I am part of a LE family. I worked for a department of 900+ sworn officers and wore the badge for over 33 years, my wife worked support-staff positions for over 20 years, my FTO recruit and later partner married one of my sisters. Yes, I can shoot a handgun and even got a department trophy.

Then you know my description of the bell curve is accurate.

No matter how elite the group there is a bell curve. Look at Delta force or seal team six. The top of their bell curve for firearms proficiency are world class shooters, the bottom of their bell curve are still pretty good. And of course those bottom of the bell curve shooters may be world class skydivers, mountain climbers etc.

Policing is regional and I have worked in several different parts of the country with several different state and local agencies. There is no more old-school no nonsense department than Texas DPS, and even they have switched to 9 mm.

The FBI’s dalliance with 10 mm was a debacle, but more on the hardware and “system” side than the ammo side. The FBI wanted a 10 mm pistol which operated like a Sig classic P series. At the time Sig could not accommodate them. Smith and Wesson had never before made a pistol with a frame mounted decocker. That meant that Smith and Wesson’s 30 years of improving and debugging their double action autos was out the window. The 1076 Was a brand new generation one gun with all the potential problems that implies. Those guns went back-and-forth to Smith and Wesson several times before the bugs were worked out and they were running somewhat reliably.

The gun was based on the 4506 Frame meaning it was large heavy and a pain in the butt to carry concealed in plainclothes. It also meant that the gun was too large for a fair portion of the workforce to shoot well regardless of recoil issues.

The original full power 10 mm loads were in the 41 Magnum range of the power spectrum. The problem with that is even the few old-school departments that issued 41 bag back in the day issued the 41 special type police loads not full power magnums.Nor did the developers of 41 magnum like Bill Jordan and Skeeter Skelton intend for cops to carry full power magnum ammo as general issue.

When the 10 mm was downloadedTo a level matching the ballistics seen in a wildcat cut down 10mm called the centimeter which eventually became 40 S&W, And could fit into medium frame service pistols, The juice just was not worth the squeeze with the 10 mm. The 10 mm was a great sub machine gun or pistol caliber carbine round and the FBI was running them up until a couple years ago when they were phased out in favor of 556 carbines across-the-board.

In another post, I mentioned that the 9mm loading the FBI just transitioned to is not the same load they issued in the 80s and 90s. This brings up two points.

The FBI of the 80s is literally not the FBI of today. Part of that is cultural changes in LE in general and the FBI and part of it is thesignificant changes in the FBI resulting from 9/11 and the GWOT.

The second is that technology advances, and not just in guns and ammo. Traffic kills more cops than guns. If you had to get in a pursuit today, would you rather have a 1989 car with seatbelts, a big block and 1980s tire tech or a modern turbo charged vehicle with modern tires, modern steering, modern brakes and air bags and crumple zones in case you wreck ?






,

[GardoneVT]

I was surprised by some of the historical facts I learned here... https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/praise-clearly-superior-40-sw-cartridge/

Historical facts and TTAG?!

:rolleyes:

[Greg]

Historical facts and TTAG?!

:rolleyes:

Amen.

[OlongJohnson]

Historical facts and TTAG?!

:rolleyes:

Hey, they have a video of a 6-inch full underlug 686 locking up due to an internal lock malfunction while firing. Thumb cocking slow fire, but still...

[HCM]

Hey, they have a video of a 6-inch full underlug 686 locking up due to an internal lock malfunction while firing. Thumb cocking slow fire, but still...

A turd with a few kernels of corn in it is still a turd.

[Trooper224]

There are very few things that stir a more passionate debate among LEOs than handgun calibers.

I wonder how well you actually know cops. During my twenty seven years, I heard passionate discussions about everything from barbeque grills to vacuum cleaners, but rarely handgun calibers.

[psalms144.1]

I wonder how well you actually know cops. During my twenty seven years, I heard passionate discussions about everything from barbeque grills to vacuum cleaners, but rarely handgun calibers.In just shy of 20 years as a Federal LE firearms instructor, I could probably count on one hand the number of agents I've worked with who know anything about guns, calibers, etc. 99.9% of the folks I've dealt with just take what's issued to them, shoot only when forced to, and clean only when the pistol starts to malfunction.

[kwb377]

I wonder how well you actually know cops. During my twenty seven years, I heard passionate discussions about everything from barbeque grills to vacuum cleaners, but rarely handgun calibers.

Except the old guy that sports the Wyatt Earp mustache, wears amber shooting glasses all the time, and carries a 1911 on duty...that guy discusses caliber (referring to every other caliber as a "poodle shooter") every chance he gets. :)

[Trooper224]

Except the old guy that sports the Wyatt Earp mustache, wears amber shooting glasses all the time, and carries a 1911 on duty...that guy discusses caliber (referring to every other caliber as a "poodle shooter") every chance he gets. :)


Snap....... :)

Every department has one of those guys. I have to admit, other than the 'stache, I might have been that guy once upon a time.

[HeavyDuty]

Except the old guy that sports the Wyatt Earp mustache, wears amber shooting glasses all the time, and carries a 1911 on duty...that guy discusses caliber (referring to every other caliber as a "poodle shooter") every chance he gets. :)

45116

[Zman001]

.40 isn't coming back. 9mm is over 100 years old, and never really went away even when .40 s&w was THE answer.

.40 will dwindle away, slowly but surely. There simply aren't enough competition shooters and people who bought a police trade in but haven't converted it to 9mm to keep it alive.

[Lost River]

Holy Cow!

URIT won a "Department Trophy" and his friend's dogs former owner was once an FBI agent!

Awesome..

I don't have those kind of credentials.

That said,when I was younger I worked for Mr. Johnson in the grocery store in a little town called Rock Ridge.

I was there when a bad guy named Mongo came to town. The biggest guy I had ever seen. I was there when the Sheriff delivered a message to Mongo.

Never forget it.

I doubt a 9mm, or an FBI agent could have done it better.

[revchuck38]

Lost River - That's one of "those" posts, eh? :)

[HCM]

Except the old guy that sports the Wyatt Earp mustache, wears amber shooting glasses all the time, and carries a 1911 on duty...that guy discusses caliber (referring to every other caliber as a "poodle shooter") every chance he gets. :)

45128


https://youtu.be/giKeix3NsKg

[awp_101]

40S&W making a comeback
45214

[Borderland]

In just shy of 20 years as a Federal LE firearms instructor, I could probably count on one hand the number of agents I've worked with who know anything about guns, calibers, etc. 99.9% of the folks I've dealt with just take what's issued to them, shoot only when forced to, and clean only when the pistol starts to malfunction.

You should have seen the condition of some of the M45A1 pistols that were returned to Colt. Those were sold on GB.

All that told me was that even elite military units don't really care about what they use or the condition.

I suspect the FBI is the same. About the only people that care about this stuff is purchasing agents and people who write about it to eat.

In a few years the FBI will come back and say they have reevaluated the 40 and it's back to the future.

It's a minor detail.

[HopetonBrown]

In a few years the FBI will come back and say they have reevaluated the 40 and it's back to the future.

Constantly disappointeded that Boomers, not the often faulted millennials or Gen Z, say the dumbest, most misinformed shit on here. It's like every few months.

[HeavyDuty]

Constantly disappointeded that Boomers, not the often faulted millennials or Gen Z, say the dumbest, most misinformed shit on here. It's like every few months.

Wow. Did you forget a smiley there, or do you just not play well with others?

[Borderland]

Constantly disappointeded that Boomers, not the often faulted millennials or Gen Z, say the dumbest, most misinformed shit on here. It's like every few months.

Well, just consider our brains endured the 60's drug culture which killed a lot of brain cells. We still have a lot of flashbacks.

Just be careful on the road. If you get hit it will probably be a boomer that takes you out.

I apologize in advance. ;)

[farscott]

The only way I see .40 S&W coming back is if there is once again legislation that limits magazine capacity. If we see a magazine capacity limit, I would expect to see a resurgence of .45 ACP, 10mm, and .40 S&W, with the latter in service pistols suitable for hands and fingers of all sizes. If the limit is low enough (say seven), I would expect a resurgence of revolvers, especially in .45 Colt and .357 Magnum.

[spinmove_]

The only way I see .40 S&W coming back is if there is once again legislation that limits magazine capacity. If we see a magazine capacity limit, I would expect to see a resurgence of .45 ACP, 10mm, and .40 S&W, with the latter in service pistols suitable for hands and fingers of all sizes. If the limit is low enough (say seven), I would expect a resurgence of revolvers, especially in .45 Colt and .357 Magnum.

If we start seeing capacity limitations across the board I’ll probably go the way of commander sized 1911s to supplement the carrying of my J-frame and pick up an LCR along the way. Yes it’ll be a little heavier than an equivalent polymer gun, but I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around neutered double stack magazines that are partially or half full.

Either way, still probably wouldn’t go .40S&W, personally.

[El Cid]

You should have seen the condition of some of the M45A1 pistols that were returned to Colt. Those were sold on GB.

All that told me was that even elite military units don't really care about what they use or the condition.

I suspect the FBI is the same. About the only people that care about this stuff is purchasing agents and people who write about it to eat.

In a few years the FBI will come back and say they have reevaluated the 40 and it's back to the future.

It's a minor detail.

I see you’ve changed threads and are spouting your uninformed nonsense here now. You’re very, very out of touch. Just because you have a keyboard doesn’t mean you should use it.

As for 40 coming back. I can’t imagine it will ever thrive again for all the reasons that have already been stated. If there is a surge in people buying 40 caliber guns it’s only because some shooters can’t resist a deal and are buying all the trade in guns from people who know better and dumped them.

[ST911]

If we've accepted that there mostly negligible and specific differences between major calibers, and that many/most shooters in 9mm guns perform demonstrably better than in larger calibers, why would .40/.45 make a comeback with new legislation? In a compact to full size gun, 10 rounds is still only ten rounds. In a subcompact or a 6-8rd 9mm, it's now 5-7. For most folks, that's the same or fewer rounds to shoot worse with.

I don't get it?

[Joe in PNG]

If we've accepted that there mostly negligible and specific differences between major calibers, and that many/most shooters in 9mm guns perform demonstrably better than in larger calibers, why would .40/.45 make a comeback with new legislation? In a compact to full size gun, 10 rounds is still only ten rounds. In a subcompact or a 6-8rd 9mm, it's now 5-7. For most folks, that's the same or fewer rounds to shoot worse with.

I don't get it?

Do remember that derp never really goes out of style.

[Galbraith]

If we've accepted that there mostly negligible and specific differences between major calibers, and that many/most shooters in 9mm guns perform demonstrably better than in other calibers, why would .40/.45 make a comeback with new legislation? In a compact to full size gun, 10 rounds is still only ten rounds. In a subcompact or a 6-8rd 9mm, it's now 5-7. For most folks, that's the same or fewer rounds to shoot worse with.

I don't get it?

I would agree, I am doubtful that the 9mm would loose popularity with a ban as it still is a much easier cartridge to shoot for most people. For a long time I carried a single stack Sig P239 9mm because it was the best viable option for off duty carry, and that was up until 3 years ago.

[Borderland]

I see you’ve changed threads and are spouting your uninformed nonsense here now. You’re very, very out of touch. Just because you have a keyboard doesn’t mean you should use it.

As for 40 coming back. I can’t imagine it will ever thrive again for all the reasons that have already been stated. If there is a surge in people buying 40 caliber guns it’s only because some shooters can’t resist a deal and are buying all the trade in guns from people who know better and dumped them.

When did it leave?

With a quick check I found 13 companies manufacturing ammo for 40 S&W.

Somebody needs to tell all of those ammo manufacturers that it's gone. Or maybe it's warehouses full of ammo they can't sell. ;)

Your logic escapes me. When the military went to 9mm the 45 ACP didn't go away. Lots of people still shoot it. I do because I don't know any better I guess.

So now that every LE agency in the country surplused their 40's it's also dead. Got It.

[TCB]

We’re not surplussing ours, we’re burning it up...prior to the switch. The 1,000’s of rounds sitting in my garage will probably just keep sitting there though. Can’t really see any point in shooting it when 9mm is a much more practical round for training, carry, duty, etc... I’m only allowing myself one out of date round, 45ACP!

[HopetonBrown]

When did it leave?

With a quick check I found 13 companies manufacturing ammo for 40 S&W.
.

With a quick check I found 13 companies manufacturing ammo for 45 GAP.

[Jeff22]

The majority of agencies where I am DO NOT issue handguns. You buy your own off the approved list. Around here Glocks are overwhelmingly the most common. A few agencies carry Smith & Wesson M&Ps and one agency had a few academy classes using MK VP9s and the current class that just graduated was trained on Sig P320s.

In retirement I work for one agency that issues the G22 Gen IV with a WML and at the other I carry a personally owned Glock 35.

The one agency used to issue the Sig P226-DAK in .40 and I have one of those, and also a Smith & Wesson M&P in .40.

I have 9mm conversion barrels for all of my .40s -- Lone Wolf for the Glocks, a Bar-Sto (spendy) for the Sig and a Storm Lake for the S&W M&P. I have shot all of those guns a little bit with the 9mm conversion barrels using both .40 and 9mm magazines and they functioned fine and were surprisingly accurate. In all of those cases, all I had to do was drop in the 9mm barrel and put the gun back together again.

I don't think I would use a .40 with a 9mm conversion barrel for defensive purposes, but it does present another way to take advantage of sales on 9mm ammo.

Other than cops and some USPSA limited class shooters, I never observed too many people using .40.

[farscott]

If we've accepted that there mostly negligible and specific differences between major calibers, and that many/most shooters in 9mm guns perform demonstrably better than in larger calibers, why would .40/.45 make a comeback with new legislation? In a compact to full size gun, 10 rounds is still only ten rounds. In a subcompact or a 6-8rd 9mm, it's now 5-7. For most folks, that's the same or fewer rounds to shoot worse with.

I don't get it?


If we start seeing capacity limitations across the board I’ll probably go the way of commander sized 1911s to supplement the carrying of my J-frame and pick up an LCR along the way. Yes it’ll be a little heavier than an equivalent polymer gun, but I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around neutered double stack magazines that are partially or half full.

Either way, still probably wouldn’t go .40S&W, personally.

I think the lower quote is an example of why we would see a move away from 9x19 if there is magazine capacity legislation, especially in Glock pistols which are known to have reliability issues with ten-round G19 and G17 magazines. I would also expect a resurgence of the 1911 which is most reliable with rounds longer than 9x19. And the 1911 is easy to shoot at speed, is easy to conceal, and has a hammer for AIWB.

Some of it may be "feels" as opposed to reasoned argument, but a lot of shooters are predisposed to like calibers that start with ".4". I also laugh when I hear the one about why the guy carries a .45; namely, "because they do not make a .46". Yet "they" do make a .50 that (almost) no one carries because the guns are too big. The compromise between round size and size of the guns is why I see .40 S&W coming back if there is a magazine capacity ban. Americans tend to trust large diameter bullets.

[Hambo]

my FTO recruit and later partner married one of my sisters.

I'm not sure WTF this has to do with anything, but all I can think of is Gunny in Full Metal Jacket.

[Bucky]

If we've accepted that there mostly negligible and specific differences between major calibers, and that many/most shooters in 9mm guns perform demonstrably better than in larger calibers, why would .40/.45 make a comeback with new legislation? In a compact to full size gun, 10 rounds is still only ten rounds. In a subcompact or a 6-8rd 9mm, it's now 5-7. For most folks, that's the same or fewer rounds to shoot worse with.

I don't get it?

Those of us that understand physics realize that a .40, with a little more muzzle energy and a lot more momentum, does indeed hit harder than a 9mm. By harder, I mean it’s ability to continue on its intended trajectory in an inconsistent medium.

Some of these same people also understand that when compared against the top performing 9mm rounds in incidents, that any power advantage is typically not as significant (if at all) as the measured differences. Any / if any difference is typically outshined by (in what I consider order of importance)
1. Capacity
2. Shootability
3. Long term cost factors (ammo, wear and tear, etc.)

So, when you take away the #1 advantage of a thing, a thinking person may tend to reconsider their options, even if they ultimately stick with their original choice.

[revchuck38]

Those of us that understand physics realize that a .40, with a little more muzzle energy and a lot more momentum, does indeed hit harder than a 9mm. By harder, I mean it’s ability to continue on its intended trajectory in an inconsistent medium.

Some of these same people also understand that when compared against the top performing 9mm rounds in incidents, that any power advantage is typically not as significant (if at all) as the measured differences. Any / if any difference is typically outshined by (in what I consider order of importance)
1. Capacity
2. Shootability
3. Long term cost factors (ammo, wear and tear, etc.)

So, when you take away the #1 advantage of a thing, a thinking person may tend to reconsider their options, even if they ultimately stick with their original choice.

I'd flip-flop Bucky's first two priorities. Given that the three main defensive calibers do about equally well when using modern ammo placed where it needs to go, IMO shootability is paramount. Being able to practice more for less money is more important than having that extra 2-3 rounds on board. Having a magazine capacity limit is abhorrent in and of itself, but as a guy who's no longer required to run to the sound of the guns, carrying more than about ten rounds in the gun is gravy. My usual carry gun is a full-size PX4 in 9x19 with a full magazine and one in the chamber, but that's because it's easier to shoot than a smaller gun.

[spence]

The majority of agencies where I am DO NOT issue handguns. You buy your own off the approved list. Around here Glocks are overwhelmingly the most common. A few agencies carry Smith & Wesson M&Ps and one agency had a few academy classes using MK VP9s and the current class that just graduated was trained on Sig P320s.

In retirement I work for one agency that issues the G22 Gen IV with a WML and at the other I carry a personally owned Glock 35.

The one agency used to issue the Sig P226-DAK in .40 and I have one of those, and also a Smith & Wesson M&P in .40.

I have 9mm conversion barrels for all of my .40s -- Lone Wolf for the Glocks, a Bar-Sto (spendy) for the Sig and a Storm Lake for the S&W M&P. I have shot all of those guns a little bit with the 9mm conversion barrels using both .40 and 9mm magazines and they functioned fine and were surprisingly accurate. In all of those cases, all I had to do was drop in the 9mm barrel and put the gun back together again.

I don't think I would use a .40 with a 9mm conversion barrel for defensive purposes, but it does present another way to take advantage of sales on 9mm ammo.

Other than cops and some USPSA limited class shooters, I never observed too many people using .40.

Redundant question time. There are conversion barrels for Sigs, like a 226 or 229? I'm in the process of getting some "official" credentials to teach classes, and I'm got a couple of converted pistols (XD and Glock), and with the price on some of the Sig trade in's in .40, I'd be really tempted to look at picking those up as other options for student to try and for me to shoot. It's a cheaper option than new Sig pistols, and if ammo gets scarce again, then I've got .40's still that can be used.

[Borderland]

Redundant question time. There are conversion barrels for Sigs, like a 226 or 229? I'm in the process of getting some "official" credentials to teach classes, and I'm got a couple of converted pistols (XD and Glock), and with the price on some of the Sig trade in's in .40, I'd be really tempted to look at picking those up as other options for student to try and for me to shoot. It's a cheaper option than new Sig pistols, and if ammo gets scarce again, then I've got .40's still that can be used.

The new 9mm Sig P229 sells for about $700. A 40 police trade sells for about half that. New 9mm CCI ammo goes for about 0.15 and new CCI 40 goes for about 0.21. $350 will buy you almost 1700 rds of ammo. After that 40 becomes more expensive to shoot but ammo will always be available. At least it was during the last banick.

I don't know about you but I don't like having ten thousand rounds of ammo stored in my basement. That's only 2 years worth of ammo for me.

[Galbraith]

Those of us that understand physics realize that a .40, with a little more muzzle energy and a lot more momentum, does indeed hit harder than a 9mm. By harder, I mean it’s ability to continue on its intended trajectory in an inconsistent medium.

Some of these same people also understand that when compared against the top performing 9mm rounds in incidents, that any power advantage is typically not as significant (if at all) as the measured differences. Any / if any difference is typically outshined by (in what I consider order of importance)
1. Capacity
2. Shootability
3. Long term cost factors (ammo, wear and tear, etc.)

So, when you take away the #1 advantage of a thing, a thinking person may tend to reconsider their options, even if they ultimately stick with their original choice.

https://lawofficer.com/exclusive/officer-down-the-peter-soulis-incident/

Officer Soulis was using .40S&W Winchester 165gr Ranger Talons rated at 1160fps, and his duty weapon was a G22. The suspect sustained a total of 22 hits, 17 hits were in the mid and upper torso. It was estimated that 11 hits in the mid and upper torso were sustained by the suspect, before he ran back to his truck, put it in reverse, and was attempting to drive away before several more rounds from Soulis' G22 finished him off. The suspect only had a small amount of alcohol in his system.

The moral of the story is, even with a more energetic pistol round like the 165gr RT which travels at around 1180fps from a G22, it did not have any more stopping effect than lower velocity projectiles. What this shooting, along with MANY other shootings is that the only reliable, measurable, and even observed method of quickly stopping an attacker with a service handgun caliber is hitting something good. Turning someone into a human sprinkler works, but it takes time. The old phrase of "shot placement is king" still rings true with the larger calibers.

Now the .40S&W tends to handle a wide variety of barriers a little better than 9mm from my experiences. I agree with Dr. Roberts when he commented that a modern, soft shooting .40S&W would be a very tempting duty pistol if I were working highway patrol again.

As for the .45acp, if works if you do your part. I will throw out 2 officer involved shootings in which both perps sustained many .45acp torso hits with modern JHPs, but they required head shots to finish the job.
Officer Keith Borders OIS:
https://lawofficer.com/special-assignment-teams/officer-safety/officer-down-a-warriors-sacrifice/

Officer Tim Grammins OIS:
https://americanhandgunner.com/the-ayoob-files/the-lessons-of-tim-gramins/

Here's a video of a civilian shooting where a pawn shop owner took down a perp with his .45acp 1911. The perp took two hits. The first hit him in his upper spine, and the second in the head. Needless to say, both shots hit something good, and worked quite well.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1389775/Armed-robber-killed-gun-shop-owner-Georgia.html


I'm currently using a .45acp duty pistol, but I've been very tempted to return to a higher capacity 9mm after injuring my strong side shoulder and performing higher volume sustained fire single handed. Now that it is doing better, I still keep the training lesson in the back of my mind that I need to be prepared to fight a gun battle when my body may not be at its best.

[BehindBlueI's]

If we've accepted that there mostly negligible and specific differences between major calibers, and that many/most shooters in 9mm guns perform demonstrably better than in larger calibers, why would .40/.45 make a comeback with new legislation? In a compact to full size gun, 10 rounds is still only ten rounds. In a subcompact or a 6-8rd 9mm, it's now 5-7. For most folks, that's the same or fewer rounds to shoot worse with.

I don't get it?

Largely because that's what happened with the Clinton AWB. However the missing piece of the puzzle is the gigantic boom in available single stack 9mm in the size "the masses" tend to actually carry and the fact that it's no longer 1994 with 1994 ammunition options.

When I first started carrying a handgun as a civilian, the Clinton AWB was in place. The price and availability of grandfathered magazines was a very real concern for those starting from scratch. I could buy a literal fist full of CZ 75 magazines for the price of one Glock magazine, but if the AWB wasn't allowed to sunset as those mags were damaged or wore out they were only going to get pricier. It was far from certain, especially in the late 90s/early 00s, that the AWB would be allowed to sunset. While I did have a CZ, I eventually bought a 1911 and sold off everything that wasn't a revolver or 1911. I carried that 1911 (with the exception of when abroad, of course) until 2006 when I got issued a Glock.

If you wanted a duty sized gun and you wanted something designed to hold 10 or less rounds, the 1911 was the only big game in town. Unlike today, it was almost always a .45. The 9mm variants just weren't out there yet. Even the smaller/bit players like the Sig P220 or the Star .45s were in .45 Auto.

[BehindBlueI's]

Those of us that understand physics realize that a .40, with a little more muzzle energy and a lot more momentum, does indeed hit harder than a 9mm. By harder, I mean it’s ability to continue on its intended trajectory in an inconsistent medium.

Energy is simply the capacity to do work. Muzzle energy does not tell you what that work will be or how it will be applied.

For example let's compare a FMJ to an ultra-light ultra fast round fragmenting round. Take Liberty Civil Defense 50gr 9mm with a muzzle energy of 444 ft/lb. That's quite high, but the energy is not used to penetrate deeply. Real world results are messy but shallow wounds. It failed to penetrate a thin late elementary shool/early middle school aged girl's arm in a near contact shot in a case I worked. (Unintended discharge resulting from a child finding a "hidden" CZ polymer pistol)

Now, let's take a look at S&B .380 FMJ ammo. Rocking a much lower 186 ft/lb of muzzle energy the humble .380 FMJ will penetrate much deeper and will completely penetrate the torso of an obese adult male or break the femur of a large athletically built male.

So what does "hitting harder" mean in the context of terminal ballistics? How can it be applied as a blanket statement to an entire caliber? How can it be determined from muzzle energy/momentum alone?

[TGS]

Redundant question time. There are conversion barrels for Sigs, like a 226 or 229? I'm in the process of getting some "official" credentials to teach classes, and I'm got a couple of converted pistols (XD and Glock), and with the price on some of the Sig trade in's in .40, I'd be really tempted to look at picking those up as other options for student to try and for me to shoot. It's a cheaper option than new Sig pistols, and if ammo gets scarce again, then I've got .40's still that can be used.

Yep.

I got a .40 P229 from a coworker about 5 years ago, and bought a P228 upper to go on it so I could shoot 9mm.

So in addition to "conversion slides", you can switch the entire upper. You just have to change out the locking block on the frame, if needed.

13 round P228 mags worked just fine in the .40 frame, as well, though you can load 9mm into the 40 mags up to a certain point and they function okay. I think it was around 10-11 rounds of 9mm and the mag spring/follower would get all wonky after that and not feed. Just fine for range use so students can get a feel, IMO.

ETA: Remembering more as I think about it, the regular capacity 40 mags were fine with 9mm. It was the 10 round .40 mags (picked up on the cheap for range use) that were binding with 9mm over a certain number.

[BehindBlueI's]

So in addition to "conversion slides", you can switch the entire upper. You just have to change out the locking block on the frame, if needed.


The conversion slides work great as well. I got a smoking deal on a Sig closeout on P226 conversion slides a few years back so that I could continue to use my "high mileage" .40 as a training gun when my department transitioned to 9mm. I ended up liking the 17M so the P226 has been left on safe guard duty and hasn't gotten a lot of rounds since, but the conversion slide worked just like a factory gun.

[ST911]

Largely because that's what happened with the Clinton AWB. However the missing piece of the puzzle is the gigantic boom in available single stack 9mm in the size "the masses" tend to actually carry and the fact that it's no longer 1994 with 1994 ammunition options.

You know what's funny... AWB94 is 25 years ago, and sunset was 15. Across the net, some discussing legislative effects weren't even alive then, more were alive but not old enough to buy a gun during that period.

[spinmove_]

I think the lower quote is an example of why we would see a move away from 9x19 if there is magazine capacity legislation, especially in Glock pistols which are known to have reliability issues with ten-round G19 and G17 magazines. I would also expect a resurgence of the 1911 which is most reliable with rounds longer than 9x19. And the 1911 is easy to shoot at speed, is easy to conceal, and has a hammer for AIWB.

Some of it may be "feels" as opposed to reasoned argument, but a lot of shooters are predisposed to like calibers that start with ".4". I also laugh when I hear the one about why the guy carries a .45; namely, "because they do not make a .46". Yet "they" do make a .50 that (almost) no one carries because the guns are too big. The compromise between round size and size of the guns is why I see .40 S&W coming back if there is a magazine capacity ban. Americans tend to trust large diameter bullets.

A double stack gun that’s limited to 10 rounds, regardless of caliber is objectively less size efficient. I was simply making the argument for a commander 1911 as it is built with that limited capacity in mind while also being size efficient regardless of what caliber you choose (typically 9mm or .45Auto).

If you have a good way of concealing a double stack magazine, a neutered mag can work just fine (so long as it’s not for a Glock). It’s just that single stack magazines conceal better due to their flatter profile. Something about being more size efficient.

[TGS]

If you have a good way of concealing a double stack magazine, a neutered mag can work just fine (so long as it’s not for a Glock).

?

[spinmove_]

?

What part of this statement are you hazy on?

[TGS]

What part of this statement are you hazy on?

"A neutered 10 round magazine will work fine, so long as it's not a Glock".

[spinmove_]

"A neutered 10 round magazine will work fine, so long as it's not a Glock".

Yeah, 10 - round REDUCED capacity Glock magazines aren’t the most reliable. This has been documented in several threads on this forum.

[TGS]

Yeah, 10 - round REDUCED capacity Glock magazines aren’t the most reliable. This has been documented in several threads on this forum.

Yeah, so don't use the Glock 19/17 OEM 10 round mags. Glock's single stack-ish 10 round neutered mag is not representative of anything but itself.

Use a blocked mag whether it's the Magpul or a Glock OEM mag permanently blocked by a vendor, which will work fine.

[Bucky]

https://lawofficer.com/exclusive/officer-down-the-peter-soulis-incident/

Officer Soulis was using .40S&W Winchester 165gr Ranger Talons rated at 1160fps, and his duty weapon was a G22. The suspect sustained a total of 22 hits, 17 hits were in the mid and upper torso. It was estimated that 11 hits in the mid and upper torso were sustained by the suspect, before he ran back to his truck, put it in reverse, and was attempting to drive away before several more rounds from Soulis' G22 finished him off. The suspect only had a small amount of alcohol in his system.

The moral of the story is, even with a more energetic pistol round like the 165gr RT which travels at around 1180fps from a G22, it did not have any more stopping effect than lower velocity projectiles. What this shooting, along with MANY other shootings is that the only reliable, measurable, and even observed method of quickly stopping an attacker with a service handgun caliber is hitting something good. Turning someone into a human sprinkler works, but it takes time. The old phrase of "shot placement is king" still rings true with the larger calibers.

Now the .40S&W tends to handle a wide variety of barriers a little better than 9mm from my experiences. I agree with Dr. Roberts when he commented that a modern, soft shooting .40S&W would be a very tempting duty pistol if I were working highway patrol again.

As for the .45acp, if works if you do your part. I will throw out 2 officer involved shootings in which both perps sustained many .45acp torso hits with modern JHPs, but they required head shots to finish the job.
Officer Keith Borders OIS:
https://lawofficer.com/special-assignment-teams/officer-safety/officer-down-a-warriors-sacrifice/

Officer Tim Grammins OIS:
https://americanhandgunner.com/the-ayoob-files/the-lessons-of-tim-gramins/

Here's a video of a civilian shooting where a pawn shop owner took down a perp with his .45acp 1911. The perp took two hits. The first hit him in his upper spine, and the second in the head. Needless to say, both shots hit something good, and worked quite well.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1389775/Armed-robber-killed-gun-shop-owner-Georgia.html


I'm currently using a .45acp duty pistol, but I've been very tempted to return to a higher capacity 9mm after injuring my strong side shoulder and performing higher volume sustained fire single handed. Now that it is doing better, I still keep the training lesson in the back of my mind that I need to be prepared to fight a gun battle when my body may not be at its best.

The problem with all these scenarios is there is no measurable constant. If it took 22 hits with a .40, we don’t know it would have taken 27 with a 9mm. Heck, maybe it would have taken 5. I know of one case where a cheap 9mm round was deflected in a very bad way, killing the victim. A .40 or a premium 9mm would likely have punched straight through and been survivable.

The only current carry I have that’s not a 9mm is my G27. At this point the only reason a 27 over a 26 is cause I already own it and it’s well vetted (and I don’t own a 26).