Single Output EDC/Defensive/Utility Lights? I Dont Get It.

[Magsz]

So.

Watching trends on the Instagram is hilarious. New product gets released, people gush about it with pretty photos and a sentence or two about how awesome it is but rarely does anyone explain WHY its awesome.

Enter Modlight and their soon to be released handhelds featuring their OKW and PLH (I dunno if they're offering both heads) heads.

I literally CANNOT wrap my head around a single output handheld light.

I've asked people for use case explanations and no one has offered up anything compelling.

ALL of my EDC lights are dual stage high/low or low/high.

ALL of my work lights are the same.

Weaponlights are completely different and I think everyone can agree that weaponlights should be single stage.

Can anyone offer me up a compelling reason as to why a single stage light is a useful tool? Who would want this? What is the application? How is it used?

Lucy 'Splain.

[Gray222]

Just another thing opinions differ on.

For tactical operations I have never once used the low setting on any low - high lights, not once. It's always been on high all the time (with the lights that had the ability to do both).

I think the surefire "throttle" low to high types aren't that great. In fact I think it's a way for companies like SF to advertise high run-time hours.

Modlite, nightstick lighting, and even streamlight have adopted rechargeable flashlights and/or rechargeable batteries for their hand held flashlights either early on or from the get go.

I'll probably get a modlite hand held as soon as they are available. The OKW head is amazingly bright and exactly what I want from a hand held, off duty, flashlight. One button, with either click on/off or tap on/off with click on/off ability.

The nightstick lighting USB-558XL which I am currently running is awesome in the fact that I don't need to change the batteries ever, I just recharge it over night, on my drive into work, or during work if I needed it on duty, and off duty, I can go about a month or two with normal use before I need to recharge it.

[runcible]

Manual strobing of a handheld high-intensity light can get funky fast with a multi-mode switch.

If I am drawing my work light in support of the handgun or to ascertain if the handgun is dictated, then I need all of the light and preferably right now.

My handheld is effectively my weaponlight, but it is not attached to the weapon and it can desirably travel separate from it - but it does in fact illuminate in support of the weapon's usage. By your stated guidance of: "Weaponlights are completely different and I think everyone can agree that weaponlights should be single stage," than it should thus be single stage - as it is.

Your needs may not speak for nor translate well to those of others.

What do you do for a living?

[psalms144.1]

I'll take an opposite point of view from previous posters - I like having hi/lo output capability in a single tool. There are plenty of times I've used my Malkoff on "low" mode looking for something in my bedroom while trying not to wake my wife, looking for something in the glove compartment at night, etc. I COMPLETELY agree that default "low" is stupid - if I need my light in a hurry, I need it NOW and BRIGHT. Surefire's default low on multi-output, IMHO, is just stoopid. I love the Malkoff's bright default, twist to lower the output.

[RJ]

Perhaps not what you might expect but:

Dog walking. I carry a 2xCR123 light in my pocket early in the morning. I usually have my headlight on low, to see the dog on her lead. But when / if I pull out the bigger light, I want it on max, RIGHT NOW.

[randyho]

+ another for everything right now. I never have and never will use strobe and would love to not have it as an option.

[Jeff S.]

I usually carry two lights, because I don’t like tactical lights as utility lights, and vice versa. The light I always have with me is a Surefire EDCL1-T. It’s extremely simple to use, it’s crazy bright, it’s small and durable, and I’ve never had issue turning it on full brightness. My utility light is an HDS System 140 CRI. It has a ton of modes, brightness levels, and it has great color rendering.

[Magsz]

Manual strobing of a handheld high-intensity light can get funky fast with a multi-mode switch.

If I am drawing my work light in support of the handgun or to ascertain if the handgun is dictated, then I need all of the light and preferably right now.

My handheld is effectively my weaponlight, but it is not attached to the weapon and it can desirably travel separate from it - but it does in fact illuminate in support of the weapon's usage. By your stated guidance of: "Weaponlights are completely different and I think everyone can agree that weaponlights should be single stage," than it should thus be single stage - as it is.

Your needs may not speak for nor translate well to those of others.

What do you do for a living?

I'm not passing off my needs as the needs of all. I'm asking others for their opinions and their use case experience. I'm not a closed minded person. I'm just trying to get past the trendiness of the new hotness and down to the nitty gritty of why and how its supposed to be used. I'm looking to learn here.

I think my logic is sound. There is NO situation EVER where a weaponlight would be used as a Utility light whereas a handheld in MY mind, should be a double duty light. Utility function with offensive/defensive capability. Hence the original topic of this thread where I sought answers as to why people think a high only option is sufficient in a role where a handheld is OFTEN used as a utility light as well AS a defensive/offensive tool.

I'm a night shift Deputy.

Lights are for gathering data. I gather data all the time without having to use the high option on my handheld. I'm certainly glad that I have the option of a high output and can toggle between the two but I would never want to have just one or the other.

I carry four lights at work.
Weaponlight
Handheld
Backup microstream
Quiglight as a hands free task light.

I go to the same primary handheld for all searching tasks until I need to transition to the handgun.

Talk to me Goose, explain.

[Wheeler]

So.

Watching trends on the Instagram is hilarious. New product gets released, people gush about it with pretty photos and a sentence or two about how awesome it is but rarely does anyone explain WHY its awesome.

Enter Modlight and their soon to be released handhelds featuring their OKW and PLH (I dunno if they're offering both heads) heads.

I literally CANNOT wrap my head around a single output handheld light.

I've asked people for use case explanations and no one has offered up anything compelling.

ALL of my EDC lights are dual stage high/low or low/high.

ALL of my work lights are the same.

Weaponlights are completely different and I think everyone can agree that weaponlights should be single stage.

Can anyone offer me up a compelling reason as to why a single stage light is a useful tool? Who would want this? What is the application? How is it used?

Lucy 'Splain.

Some folks don't want a multifunction light to use for potential defensive applications. Having shot a couple of low/no light classes and CoFs I've come to the conclusion that if I'm planning to use a handheld light for defensive purposes it needs to remain at the high setting.

[Clusterfrack]

My current EDC is a Malkoff Bodyguard v.2 (https://malkoffdevices.com/collections/malkoff-small-led-flashlights/products/malkoff-mdc-bodyguard-v2-18650-flashlight)with a 1 cell body. It's pretty much the perfect light for defensive use. It is so bright that I cannot use it for general illumination like dropped stuff in a movie theater. But, I have an iPhone for that.

I have had so many different lights, I've pretty much lost count. Based on that large sample, the more modes a light has the more chance there is of it not being on really-fucking-bright when I need it to be. Even high quality 2-level lights like SF and Malkoff where you have to turn the tailcap or head to change brightness have failed to be on high when I needed it.

My favorite multi-level lights are:
Klarus XT2C and the Malkoff M61HOT MD2 with high/low Tricap

[Magsz]

Some folks don't want a multifunction light to use for potential defensive applications. Having shot a couple of low/no light classes and CoFs I've come to the conclusion that if I'm planning to use a handheld light for defensive purposes it needs to remain at the high setting.

There are plenty of lights that offer this without overly complicated switching mechanisms. These lights always remain on high until you deliberately switch them to another setting. I respect your needs and I agree with the fact that high output is essential but what happened in your classes where you weren't able to manipulate a light that had the OPTION of a low output?

Any specifics?

[Gray222]

What type of real world application of an EDC and/or tactical type light would required a low beam setting?

[runcible]

I gotcha, big guy; and I appreciate you telling us a bit about yourself. I'm fortunate to not have to fit my work gear onto a traditional duty belt and maintain a uniform appearance, though I have other restrictions; and I'd imagine you use your light a whole lot more broadly and often than I do.

For me, and my present workplace and old one, I'd rather split that function into two lights than have one light with two functions. While I was in the military, that meant a weaponlight on my rifle, a handheld, and a headlamp; and at my current place, a high-intensity handheld and a multi-mode micro handheld (Surefire Stiletto or Streamlight MicroStream USB). The high-intensity handheld is "always on high," and doesn't get run down from utilitarian usage; and the multi-mode stays topped off from rechargeing.

I like my high-intensity handhelds to be always on high, push-button, and with good throw; and I use\used them for searching, hunting, and to directly support shooting. Given the reactive nature of some of that, I'd really rather that they stay mono-focused on that. Though, the Surefire Stiletto and it's variant switching sort of splits the difference.

For what it's worth, I'm curious about the Modlight offering, but it's a bit bigger than I'd like, having smaller hands. As presented, one of their weapon lights with the railmount removed might be more up my alley.

[Magsz]

What type of real world application of an EDC and/or tactical type light would required a low beam setting?

You're kidding right? Please tell me you're kidding...

[randyho]

You're kidding right? Please tell me you're kidding...
Perfectly reasonable question.

[Wheeler]

There are plenty of lights that offer this without overly complicated switching mechanisms. These lights always remain on high until you deliberately switch them to another setting. I respect your needs and I agree with the fact that high output is essential but what happened in your classes where you weren't able to manipulate a light that had the OPTION of a low output?

Any specifics?

Light wasn’t at the output I needed or I’d fumble switching to get to where I wanted it. It’s really hard to maintain rational thought when pointing/aiming a loaded gun. Figuring out the settings on a light adds to that difficulty. Yeah. I can go out and buy another light that might fit all those needs in one, or I can stick with what I have and that I know works.

That’s the beauty of a free market. There are enough products available to suit us all rather than trying to force end users to use one sort of system.

[Magsz]

runcible

I hope what I did there works...

I don't think you can remove the rail mount portion of the light so for now, you're stuck with that and probably will be in perpetuity as they seem pretty set on delineating products and their handheld is...well, their hand held body at this point.

In response to your above post I do very much prefer for patrol work to keep everything in one package. We can go all combat ninja about it and say that I do it for purposes of muscle memory as I want to go to the same place all the time for my light source but that's pretty dramatic if I may say so.

It's more for the sake of simplicity as I use my light so damned much that by the end of the night its come off my belt and back onto my belt what feels like a thousand or two times. I use my quiglight for taking notes when necessary and the handheld does everything else on a low setting until I need that high setting. Building clearing, depending on barriers and obstacles inside of the enclosed structure can also be conducted on low as the emitter on my light throws fairly well and gives me enough data. This is obviously dictated by ambient light, construction of the room etc. I have zero issues when it comes to going between modes but im also using a FirstLight handheld which has VERY intuitive and VERY well constructed switching modes. Prior to the FirstLight I used a Surefire Fury, Eagletac (model name escapes me), Streamlight HL and a myriad of other lights that don't really need to be mentioned.

Off duty I carry a Surefire ED2 or whatever the hell the name of that thing is.

Judging by what ive posted I would assume that you guys can see why I struggle to understand why a high output only has any role?

[Magsz]

Perfectly reasonable question.

For a cop to ask another cop that question, it screams of trolling.

It is the internet so the tone is deaf but...yeah...

[CCT125US]

For my situation, the Surefire EDCL2T works well. The gas pedal switch provides me exactly what I require. A light press gives 5 lumens, perfect for: reviewing paperwork in my dark car, finding a street address while walking, showing a client information, bouncing light off the ceiling to check on the kids, walking the dog and avoiding stepping in it's mess, looking for files in the trunk, finding firewood, and any number of other mundane things one might use a light for. If...if I need 1200 lumens I have it on tap in one package. I have used it several times to give pause to a aggressive dogs, it also works well to stop aggressive panhandlers, search for coyotes out to 100 yards and illuminate a parking garage. Batteries get changed every 20 days under my normal use. It does exactly what I need it to do.

Find what works for you. It may not apply to everyone's situation, and that is just fine. I use 5 lumens way more than 1200, but the times I have needed the higher output, I was glad it was available.

I don't live in a world where I feel my experience trumps all else. Be nice if other's learned that as well.

[NH Shooter]

There is one school of thought that a hand held is the primary illumination tool for defensive needs, and a WML serves as secondary role. There is plenty of discussion on that topic so I won't regurgitate any of it here.

If I can carry only one light and it needs to serve both defensive purposes and finding the keys I dropped between the console and seat, I can straddle those needs with something like the Malkoff high/low bezel switch. Leave the bezel tightened down and get all-the-lumens-all-the-time with a single press of the tailcap switch. Even with that, there's still a chance the light will come on low if I forget to lock the bezel back down after looking for those keys.

As a civilian I am in the camp of having a dedicated light for defensive use that is single mode, max output without fail when the light is activated. I have several carry lights dedicated to that purpose. Since I'm a flashlight nerd, I carry a second (usually smaller) light that is more of a general purpose, multi-output light. For defensive use, I will not use a multi-output light that is controlled by multiple presses of the tail switch or any programmable light. Having attended the Low Light Pistol Operator course at the Sig Academy, I witnessed first-hand how those lights can be a liability. For general use though, they are fine.

I think part of the disconnect here is that just because it's not attached to a weapon doesn't mean it can't be a light dedicated for defensive use.

[Gray222]

For a cop to ask another cop that question, it screams of trolling.

It is the internet so the tone is deaf but...yeah...

It's trolling to ask for real world examples that support your position?

[bravo7]

What type of real world application of an EDC and/or tactical type light would required a low beam setting?

Tracking sign

[drummer]

The problem with multi-output lights are numerous...too little light, too much light, complex switching, IE most of them.

One of the best multi-output I've owned was an HDS Rotary but it gave up a bit on the tactical side (not much).

The gas pedal Surefires are an okay option, but again, it may be too little or too much on the low end.

I recently got a Valhalla Tactical body for my OKW head and it kicked the Surefire EDC1T out of my pocket. Is it an ideal EDC light, definitely not. However, the performance on the high end kicks the Surefire's butt every which way. For non-tactical emergency use, I can overcome the lack of runtime (35 mins) with spare charged batteries.

I can understand why a nightshift cop would want lower output utility lights for mundane tasks that don't need 1000 lumens. There are lots of options out there, and having many options is a good thing.

As a mostly daytime detective-type, I'll be keeping my OKW in my pocket.

[Magsz]

It's trolling to ask for real world examples that support your position?

The intent behind this thread was not to make this a versus topic. I was asking for people to post about their experiences so that perhaps I could have my own knowledge base expanded as I don't get the interest in a single output beyond the new cool hotness and the #lumenwars (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=lumenwars) . I can see how this topic sort of drifted into a versus thread as people are brand loyal, others are invested and others are just shills. Its the way of the internet, no biggie.

To answer your question, since it seems like it was fairly asked:

EDC:

Picking up dog shit
My wife and I keep different schedules so when I get home and its dark and she is asleep, I don't like to blast the room with light as I navigate around.
Finding the front key hole on the door of my house when my wife forgets to leave the outside lights on.
I drop shit in the dark at my feet and need to pick it up.
Movie theatres when im feeling all ninja like.

Work:

Reading VIN #'s on crash scenes
Looking at address's on mail boxes, houses etc without telegraphing my position by activating the sun.
Illuminating paperwork while victims/witnesses etc fill it out.
Illuminating blood/bodily fluids etc. 1500 lumens washes these things out.
Looking for shit in my car when it eats objects...its a black hole.
Identifying pretty much whatever it is I want to see in the dark without washing out what im trying to look at closely.
Building searches when a low setting is sufficient in providing me whatever data I may need to collect in the room. A high setting is not always necessary or wanted when say you're looking for a missing person and there is no immediate threat. I would never use my weapon mounted light in this setting which goes back to my earlier post about the clear difference between the two.

I can go on if you feel like you need more examples.

[Duke]

I support the hi/low function light.

Work has this light in my hand for a required - Yet non-Tactial - task daily.

350 lumens high/ 70 lumens low 2 taps later.

I don’t use my phone as an Illumination tool because I’m not a 16 year old girl.

All the lumens. Tactics. I get it.

I could surely wipe my ass with steel wool or pick my nose with pliers - but there’s a better way.


44730

[AMC]

There is a difference between a tactical light and a task light. Task lights.....whatever cool nifty features you want, go for it. I too am in the camp of "all the light right now" for a handheld light to be used as a defensive tool with a handgun. I usually carried three lights with me on duty....when I was an actual street cop, and not a training division pogue. Usually had a programmable task light with me for those "administrative" jobs....and even then it was preset to "Nova". If I needed a little light....I had time. If I needed a lot....usually not. But I only did 27 years of big city night watch cop work, so....I probably don't have enough experience to speak on this. I'm definitely at the "Whatever lights your fire" stage right now.

[SoCalDep]

There is a difference between a tactical light and a task light. Task lights.....whatever cool nifty features you want, go for it. I too am in the camp of "all the light right now" for a handheld light to be used as a defensive tool with a handgun. I usually carried three lights with me on duty....when I was an actual street cop, and not a training division pogue. Usually had a programmable task light with me for those "administrative" jobs....and even then it was preset to "Nova". If I needed a little light....I had time. If I needed a lot....usually not. But I only did 27 years of big city night watch cop work, so....I probably don't have enough experience to speak on this. I'm definitely at the "Whatever lights your fire" stage right now.

I liked it, gonna quote it, and it really should be the last word on this. I could add my two cents, but it would only be reduntent in agreeing with AMC’s post.

[Magsz]

I liked it, gonna quote it, and it really should be the last word on this. I could add my two cents, but it would only be reduntent in agreeing with AMC’s post.

Except the original intent behind this post was to foster a discussion, not create an us versus them line in the sand.

A light with utility, ie a high/low setting does NOT make it a task light.

Just like a light with a high/low setting does NOT exclude it from being a defensive/offensive tool.

Is it just me or do a lot of the posts in this thread seem overly interested in shutting down a conversation that was started in a gear/EQ subsection?

I too am all about the idea of "to each their own." I was trying to find out what makes that type of gear or doctrine "their own".

[jnc36rcpd]

My concern with multi-setting lights is the risk of the light being on low or strobe when you need all the lumens right now. I have noticed an unfortunate feature of my Streamlight Stinger and my Surefire Lawman is that one can easily get a strobe during a building search or other tactical scenario.

Magsz provided some excellent examples of the value of reduced lumens in some situations. I could argue that technique with one's gazillion lumen one-setting torch works in some of those situations (albeit not the waking significant other examples), lower lumens are an advantage in some situations.

I think switch systems such as the Surefire Lawman (no longer available) or Powertac work best. The switch to change lumen settings is separate from the activation switch. It may take longer to change settings, but it reduces the risk of accidentally toggling from one setting to another.

[SoCalDep]

Except the original intent behind this post was to foster a discussion, not create an us versus them line in the sand.

I thought I was agreeing with someone who was making good points in the discussion, but since you think I'm drawing a line in the sand....


A light with utility, ie a high/low setting does NOT make it a task light.

No... But if it's an alternating high-low with multi press of a switch it does make it a shit tactical light.


Just like a light with a high/low setting does NOT exclude it from being a defensive/offensive tool.

No... But if it's an alternating high-low with multi press of a switch it makes it a shit tactical tool.


Is it just me or do a lot of the posts in this thread seem overly interested in shutting down a conversation that was started in a gear/EQ subsection?

Maybe it's you... or maybe it's that your conversation lacks context. So I'll give you mine. I have almost a couple decades in law enforcement and train on an almost constant basis in low light tactics and techniques - My unit, which until the past couple months was less than twenty people is responsible for training over 11,000 armed personnel and now, at twenty four people, is currently at something like 13,000 training spots for the year, has had the opportunity to see a lot of people do things in low light conditions. I've seen how they do things with lights ranging from the top-of-the-line tactical lights to the cheapest Home Depot and 7-11 next-to-the-cashier flashlight display lights. I developed my department's low-light training program, adapted it to one of the most forward-thinking WML training programs in law enforcement today, and I've been passionate about low light training for over twenty years- well before I even entered law enforcement.

With the exception of many older Surefire lights, the old Streamlight Strion (original model), the Surefire Stiletto or head-twist lights like the Quark Tactical, and some other Boutique lights (which often have their own issues regarding constant-on and switching concerns), or the Surefire Tactician or EDC (and similar) series, multi-mode lights sacrifice tactical effectiveness for the ability to do stuff that isn't tactical. I hate that word (tactical) because it sounds and really is "cool guy stuff"... So let's re-define as fighting. If I need to fight as a good guy (cop, homeowner, CCW, etc.) I need to ID threats. If there is enough light then I don't need a flashlight to ID threats. If there is not enough light, then I want all the light I can get. If, under stress, I shake (because that happens under stress... to the best of us) and double tap the light into low mode... I am less effective than I was a moment ago. A tool that can fail that easily isn't what I want under stress... and it's not what you should want. I've seen it literally (that's not a colloquialism) thousands of times... the light switches to low or strobe or whatever other mode or someone hits the stupid focus bezel and the light changes and it causes delay and hesitation. All that work for a fast draw, short splits, and a bitchin' presentation or target transition and now it's all slowed because our equipment isn't meant for the fight but for reading a VIN number, or finding our keys in the dark, or being able to avoid stubbing our toe on the way to the bathroom at 2am.

If you want to be good at fighting get a single-mode light that turns on when you press the tailcap switch and turns off when you release it. Anything else is a compromise and I'll keep my compromise stuff on my ankle in my trauma kit or in my bag in the car. The go-to fighting light better turn on super-frigin-bright when I want it to and turn off when I let go.

Right now I carry a Surefire Tactician as an on-duty tactical light and a Surefire Stiletto as my primary off-duty light. Both of them fill that mission. Both of them can be tasked with a lower mode, but it requires conscious effort to get to that mode and it doesn't interfere with their ability to fulfill the mission of a fighting light.


I too am all about the idea of "to each their own." I was trying to find out what makes that type of gear or doctrine "their own".

I try to avoid absolutes, which is funny in respect to my previous statements, and I will say that everyone needs to evaluate their needs. Someone may be totally OK with a light that is geared more towards other applications than to fighting. We all need to evaluate our priorities and our own needs based on our lifestyle and personal threat assessment. At the same time, when the OP is at a loss as to why one may need a single mode light, calls out a post that simply agrees with another well experienced and thought out post, and is clearly wrong in their understanding of low light fighting...

_________________________________

There's my line.

[Magsz]

That's a pretty good line and that's the type of post that I was looking for. Thank you.

It hasn't changed my mind on the Modlight products or single stage output lights in general as I still believe we can have our cake and eat it too BUT for anyone else out there on the fence about gear selection, I think we can all agree that there are BETTER mouse traps. Certain tail caps or switching methods just WON'T work and I don't think anyone in here was debating that, at least I sure as shit wasn't. MY personal preference as far as equipment goes for fighting lights is either a gas pedal style tail cap like the Surefire EDCL2 lights or a side mounted mode selector that is PROPERLY designed, ie recessed and not easily accessed UNLESS you want to access it. I have no experience with rotating bezel's regarding output level so I cant comment on that.

As with anything, I really do believe its a training issue. Understand your gear, understand what it can and what it cant do and how to use it. Then go out and train accordingly with it.

You cant make bad gear not suck, especially under stress regardless of how much you've trained with that piece of shit. :)

[Gray222]

Magsz nothing you posted on the listed requires a low setting. Maybe your cellphone light for stuff like getting stuff done around the house while your wife is asleep but other than that, everything you posted I've done (and likely everyone else has as well) with a full power flashlight without any issues at all.

For wash out, just shine the light slightly away from the item or against another nearby item. Light, is very malleable, it bounces off things and is able to throw itself in weird angles.

As I stated originally, a low setting on a tactical light is, in my opinion, a way for companies to show a high run time hour number.

[NH Shooter]

WARNING!! Flashlight nerd post ahead!

Not to turn this into a Show 'n Tell thread, but I would like to illustrate how today we have the luxury of being able to assemble a light for specific applications - in this case, a hand held light configured specifically for defensive purposes (with or with a handgun).

As already indicated in previous posts, here are the attributes I want in a light for this purpose;

Single output mode. Regardless of the UI, a multi-output light can end up not providing maximum output in that split-second of immediate need.

Blinding output. Most make the mistake of using just the lumens rating for this measure and not consider the rated candela or lux rating (how tightly the lumens are focused in a central hot spot). Being able to "laser" the target's eyes with a column of focused light is a huge benefit. At the same time the column (hot spot) needs to be wide enough to not require precise light aiming and provide enough spill to maintain SA with periphery vision. In terms of absolute ratings I have found that more-is-better, with around 10,000 candela/lux and 600 lumens the minimum I would want for this application.

Simple UI. This is really the most important to me, and as SoCalDep stated: If you want to be good at fighting get a single-mode light that turns on when you press the tailcap switch and turns off when you release it. Based on spending a day of instruction in the dark using a hand held to engage targets with a pistol, this is truly excellent advice.

Light ergonomics. I had taken both a small (but capable) pocket light and a larger 3-cell light with me to the training. Under the stress of having to clear stoppages, make mag changes, etc. I found the larger light easier to handle and maintain a good grip on.

Built like a hammer. It's gotta be built like a tank to withstand physical abuse, whether that's being repeatedly dropped and hitting the pavement or being used as an impact tool.

Flexible power supply. Can be run on either Li-ion rechargeable cells or ordinary CR123A batteries. Being able to quickly change cells in the field is IMO a requirement.

Based on what I learned, I have since assembled the light below which checks all the boxes for this niche purpose;

https://i.ibb.co/7CGKTWB/91T-1.jpg


Starting from the back of the light;

Surefire "twisty" tailcap. Press the button to turn the light on, let it go to turn it off. If constant-on is needed, twist the tailcap tight to the body. One thing I discovered is that "clicky" tailcap switches can accidently be clicked to constant on, which sucks when I release the button and expect the light to turn off immediately.

Finger lanyard. Amazing how useful this feature is for controlling the light and retaining it when both hands are needed (clearing stoppages, mag changes, etc.). The DIY lanyard is attached to a Raven Concealment clip which due to it's split-ring construction will pull off the light if an adversary gains control of the light with my finger still in the lanyard.

Malkoff MD3 body. Holds two 18500 Li-ion cells or three CR123A batteries, and is long enough to get a full-hand grip on.

Malkoff M91T head. Single mode, 750 lumens/19,000 lux with over an hour of full output run time. The TIR lens focuses most of the lumens into a wide central hot spot while providing adequate spill.

This light rides comfortably clipped in a front pants pocket where it's readily accessible (can also be easily carried in a kydex flashlight holster). If the light needs to be deployed quickly, there is zero doubt what's going to happen when the button is pressed. Yes, it's a niche light but is IMO about as good as it gets for this purpose. When I return to the Sig Academy to take the half-day Low Light Pistol Operator refresher course, this will be the light I'll take.

If all I need to do is find the keys I dropped, a small EDC multi-mode light that rides in the bottom of my pocket is used for that;

https://i.ibb.co/7pw0pJx/malkoff-5.jpg


I hope you find this post informative.

[blues]

For a pure tactical light, I still like my old Surefire E2e or 6z (both enhanced with Malkoff head or lamp respectively). Button on-off or twist for fully on. No muss no fuss. No clickies.

I also like the compromise offered by the Malkoff Bodyguard lights which switch on high automatically and after 10 seconds revert to a 200+ lumen range.

There is no perfect light for all circumstances. Pick the one or ones that work best for you in the circumstances you anticipate facing.

[CCT125US]

Magsz nothing you posted on the listed requires a low setting.
How does this jive with wanting to maintain one's adapted night vision?

[Clusterfrack]

I’ve had good luck with using my hand to cover the bezel of a too-bright light. Let a little light leak out as needed, and a 1-mode tac light works ok as a task light. A 1100 lumen light can get hot though.

[Duelist]

I’ve had good luck with using my hand to cover the bezel of a too-bright light. Let a little light leak out as needed, and a 1-mode tac light works ok as a task light. A 1100 lumen light can get hot though.

Or up against your body or arm. Especially just navigating your own dark house without waking up the other occupants, this works very well.

[Duelist]

WARNING!! Flashlight nerd post ahead!

Not to turn this into a Show 'n Tell thread, but I would like to illustrate how today we have the luxury of being able to assemble a light for specific applications - in this case, a hand held light configured specifically for defensive purposes (with or with a handgun).

As already indicated in previous posts, here are the attributes I want in a light for this purpose;

Single output mode. Regardless of the UI, a multi-output light can end up not providing maximum output in that split-second of immediate need.

Blinding output. Most make the mistake of using just the lumens rating for this measure and not consider the rated candela or lux rating (how tightly the lumens are focused in a central hot spot). Being able to "laser" the target's eyes with a column of focused light is a huge benefit. At the same time the column (hot spot) needs to be wide enough to not require precise light aiming and provide enough spill to maintain SA with periphery vision. In terms of absolute ratings I have found that more-is-better, with around 10,000 candela/lux and 600 lumens the minimum I would want for this application.

Simple UI. This is really the most important to me, and as SoCalDep stated: If you want to be good at fighting get a single-mode light that turns on when you press the tailcap switch and turns off when you release it. Based on spending a day of instruction in the dark using a hand held to engage targets with a pistol, this is truly excellent advice.

Light ergonomics. I had taken both a small (but capable) pocket light and a larger 3-cell light with me to the training. Under the stress of having to clear stoppages, make mag changes, etc. I found the larger light easier to handle and maintain a good grip on.

Built like a hammer. It's gotta be built like a tank to withstand physical abuse, whether that's being repeatedly dropped and hitting the pavement or being used as an impact tool.

Flexible power supply. Can be run on either Li-ion rechargeable cells or ordinary CR123A batteries. Being able to quickly change cells in the field is IMO a requirement.

Based on what I learned, I have since assembled the light below which checks all the boxes for this niche purpose;

https://i.ibb.co/7CGKTWB/91T-1.jpg


Starting from the back of the light;

Surefire "twisty" tailcap. Press the button to turn the light on, let it go to turn it off. If constant-on is needed, twist the tailcap tight to the body. One thing I discovered is that "clicky" tailcap switches can accidently be clicked to constant on, which sucks when I release the button and expect the light to turn off immediately.

Finger lanyard. Amazing how useful this feature is for controlling the light and retaining it when both hands are needed (clearing stoppages, mag changes, etc.). The DIY lanyard is attached to a Raven Concealment clip which due to it's split-ring construction will pull off the light if an adversary gains control of the light with my finger still in the lanyard.

Malkoff MD3 body. Holds two 18500 Li-ion cells or three CR123A batteries, and is long enough to get a full-hand grip on.

Malkoff M91T head. Single mode, 750 lumens/19,000 lux with over an hour of full output run time. The TIR lens focuses most of the lumens into a wide central hot spot while providing adequate spill.

This light rides comfortably clipped in a front pants pocket where it's readily accessible (can also be easily carried in a kydex flashlight holster). If the light needs to be deployed quickly, there is zero doubt what's going to happen when the button is pressed. Yes, it's a niche light but is IMO about as good as it gets for this purpose. When I return to the Sig Academy to take the half-day Low Light Pistol Operator refresher course, this will be the light I'll take.

If all I need to do is find the keys I dropped, a small EDC multi-mode light that rides in the bottom of my pocket is used for that;

https://i.ibb.co/7pw0pJx/malkoff-5.jpg


I hope you find this post informative.

How much are you into that light? I really like it. It is hitting all of my flashlight nerd buttons.

[Gray222]

How does this jive with wanting to maintain one's adapted night vision?

Out door use of a standard flashlight won't kill your night vision, only if you bleach a wall or object directly in front of you.

If your adapted night vision is that important to you, use real night vision devices to assist in those tactical operations which require this level of non-white light use.

[Magsz]

Magsz nothing you posted on the listed requires a low setting. Maybe your cellphone light for stuff like getting stuff done around the house while your wife is asleep but other than that, everything you posted I've done (and likely everyone else has as well) with a full power flashlight without any issues at all.

For wash out, just shine the light slightly away from the item or against another nearby item. Light, is very malleable, it bounces off things and is able to throw itself in weird angles.

As I stated originally, a low setting on a tactical light is, in my opinion, a way for companies to show a high run time hour number.

Of course I could but why? Simplicity? Reference my earlier post regarding training and proper equipment selection.

I'm all about output, lumens, candela etc but this whole #allthelumens (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=allthelumens) movement should not be an absolute.

Proper technique helps preserve adapted night vision so im not part of THAT camp but once again, while I COULD blast the room, area etc, I choose NOT to because I dont HAVE to.

My KTM motorcycle has riding modes. In rain mode it downgrades the power from 180 horses to something like 100 and increases the traction control setting. Do I need to switch modes? No but I can, so I do when its pissing on me and I want a higher degree of safety. Its not a direct comparison but once again, options that do not have any compelling negatives are always good in my mind.

The only compelling argument anyone has offered is that a poorly designed switching mechanism can result in a light outputting on its low setting when it SHOULD be on high. The key phrase being a poorly designed switching mechanism. So...don't buy a light with a poorly designed switching mechanism.

[NH Shooter]

How much are you into that light? I really like it. It is hitting all of my flashlight nerd buttons.

My guess is I have around $175 into it.

From the Malkoff website;

MD3 body with switch (https://malkoffdevices.com/collections/parts-and-miscellaneous-items/products/md3-body-and-switch) - $63.99. If you email them you can get a link to the body without the tailcap (around $45.00 sans the switch).

M91B head (https://malkoffdevices.com/collections/large-malkoff-led-flashlights/products/m91-md3) - $95.99

Of course 15% or 20% off Malkoff coupons can be had by posting a review.

You'll have to watch ebay and/or use your Google Fu to track down the Surefire tailcap. Figure $20 to $40.

The Raven Concealment clip (https://rcsgear.com/surefire-p-and-g-series-pocket-clip/) is $14.99.

If you use the SF tailcap you MUST use IMR 18500 flat top cells - protected cells are too long for use with the shorter SF tailcap. Three CR123A batteries still fit, though.

[blues]

The only compelling argument anyone has offered is that a poorly designed switching mechanism can result in a light outputting on its low setting when it SHOULD be on high. The key phrase being a poorly designed switching mechanism. So...don't buy a light with a poorly designed switching mechanism.

Anything mechanical or electronic can fail. We risk that with any device, however.

[Mirolynmonbro]

For a pure tactical light, I still like my old Surefire E2e or 6z (both enhanced with Malkoff head or lamp respectively). Button on-off or twist for fully on. No muss no fuss. No clickies.

I also like the compromise offered by the Malkoff Bodyguard lights which switch on high automatically and after 10 seconds revert to a 200+ lumen range.

There is no perfect light for all circumstances. Pick the one or ones that work best for you in the circumstances you anticipate facing.

I usually only carry the bodyguard. It's a great light. When I need a super low setting I just cover it with my hand. The lense gets hot but after it steps down to 200 it's tolerable. I wish I got the longer 18650 version. I think it would carry easier on my pocket.

[blues]

I usually only carry the bodyguard. It's a great light. When I need a super low setting I just cover it with my hand. The lense gets hot but after it steps down to 200 it's tolerable. I wish I got the longer 18650 version. I think it would carry easier on my pocket.

I have both, and thus far have found times when one or the other may be more convenient.

[Gray222]

Of course I could but why? Simplicity? Reference my earlier post regarding training and proper equipment selection.

I'm all about output, lumens, candela etc but this whole #allthelumens (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=allthelumens) movement should not be an absolute.

Proper technique helps preserve adapted night vision so im not part of THAT camp but once again, while I COULD blast the room, area etc, I choose NOT to because I dont HAVE to.

My KTM motorcycle has riding modes. In rain mode it downgrades the power from 180 horses to something like 100 and increases the traction control setting. Do I need to switch modes? No but I can, so I do when its pissing on me and I want a higher degree of safety. Its not a direct comparison but once again, options that do not have any compelling negatives are always good in my mind.

The only compelling argument anyone has offered is that a poorly designed switching mechanism can result in a light outputting on its low setting when it SHOULD be on high. The key phrase being a poorly designed switching mechanism. So...don't buy a light with a poorly designed switching mechanism.

I'm not in the any absolute camp, my point of contention has been that the need for a "low" power option on a tactical / EDC light is very low, possibly none-existent, and the circumstances where a low power may be needed there are other options which are more applicable. I use my phone light for around the house stuff in the middle of the night, those things do not necessitate the use of a specific low power mode or light.

Everything can be done with a full power light, especially for LE work.

[Magsz]

I'm not in the any absolute camp, my point of contention has been that the need for a "low" power option on a tactical / EDC light is very low, possibly none-existent, and the circumstances where a low power may be needed there are other options which are more applicable. I use my phone light for around the house stuff in the middle of the night, those things do not necessitate the use of a specific low power mode or light.

Everything can be done with a full power light, especially for LE work.

You just said you're not in an absolute camp but you also said that EVERYTHING you're talking about can be done with a full power light.

It can ALSO be done with a low power setting.

I also strongly disagree with your statement that a full power light can accomplish all LE tasks. I cant see VIN number plates with 1500 lumens blasting against it. The same can be said for washout on mailboxes where the paint is either fading or someone happened to paint the numerical letters white against a white background. There are a million scenarios where too much light is just that, too much.

What light do you use for work?

[orionz06]

The intent behind this thread was not to make this a versus topic. I was asking for people to post about their experiences so that perhaps I could have my own knowledge base expanded as I don't get the interest in a single output beyond the new cool hotness and the #lumenwars (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=lumenwars) . I can see how this topic sort of drifted into a versus thread as people are brand loyal, others are invested and others are just shills. Its the way of the internet, no biggie.

To answer your question, since it seems like it was fairly asked:

EDC:

Picking up dog shit
My wife and I keep different schedules so when I get home and its dark and she is asleep, I don't like to blast the room with light as I navigate around.
Finding the front key hole on the door of my house when my wife forgets to leave the outside lights on.
I drop shit in the dark at my feet and need to pick it up.
Movie theatres when im feeling all ninja like.

Work:

Reading VIN #'s on crash scenes
Looking at address's on mail boxes, houses etc without telegraphing my position by activating the sun.
Illuminating paperwork while victims/witnesses etc fill it out.
Illuminating blood/bodily fluids etc. 1500 lumens washes these things out.
Looking for shit in my car when it eats objects...its a black hole.
Identifying pretty much whatever it is I want to see in the dark without washing out what im trying to look at closely.
Building searches when a low setting is sufficient in providing me whatever data I may need to collect in the room. A high setting is not always necessary or wanted when say you're looking for a missing person and there is no immediate threat. I would never use my weapon mounted light in this setting which goes back to my earlier post about the clear difference between the two.

I can go on if you feel like you need more examples.

All of this and more. Searching a car for anything with more than a few hundred lumens is bullshit if you wanna then drive away safely.

[Gray222]

You just said you're not in an absolute camp but you also said that EVERYTHING you're talking about can be done with a full power light.

It can ALSO be done with a low power setting.

I also strongly disagree with your statement that a full power light can accomplish all LE tasks. I cant see VIN number plates with 1500 lumens blasting against it. The same can be said for washout on mailboxes where the paint is either fading or someone happened to paint the numerical letters white against a white background. There are a million scenarios where too much light is just that, too much.

What light do you use for work?

Funny, I can do all those things and have zero issue using a full power light?

I'm using a streamlight led hl ds, it's very bright.

[Magsz]

Funny, I can do all those things and have zero issue using a full power light?

I'm using a streamlight led hl ds, it's very bright.

What's your point? Do you and I share eyes, brain, body type? Are all lighting conditions the same? The answer is no.

Just because YOU can, doesn't mean everyone should or can or will.

I'm still waiting on a compelling argument beyond training issues and poor light design.

[Mirolynmonbro]

My biggest issue with a high single output light is the runtime and the heat. For example the modlight has a 35min runtime. I haven't read anything about the heat but if it's anything like my Malkoff I'm sure it gets hot quick.

[Gray222]

What's your point? Do you and I share eyes, brain, body type? Are all lighting conditions the same? The answer is no.

Just because YOU can, doesn't mean everyone should or can or will.

I'm still waiting on a compelling argument beyond training issues and poor light design.

Now who is trolling?

I'm still waiting for a compelling argument for low light functionality for real world applications of lights.

[TGS]

Apparently the touchy butt-hurt topics these days are the virginia elections, everyone being a pussy, and flashlights.

What ever happened to 9mm vs 45? :cool:

FWIW, I like carrying multi-mode lights. I've been in a 9 day power outage with just a high power light, and it died in fairly short order because I had to use it for the more mundane tasks of life.

I've been through a pretty good amount of low-light/no-light training and haven't had a problem with my multi-mode lights, though I can see how some of them are problematic (in particular ones that require you to switch to get to high). I am happy with my Streamlight USB 2L-X and it's Max-Strobe-Low mode. I do not find the idea of carrying multiple lights in street clothes (and especially suits) to be pragmatic. If I was in high profile kit, my opinion might change...in fact, I know it does, because I have dedicated lights mounted to my high profile gear for specific purposes.

YMMV.

Flame on, since I'm a millennial LEO with a beard who moved to Virginia from NJ as a federal employee and use a multi-mode light......as well as every other reason according to the internet that I am the cause of all wrong in the world.

[Gray222]

Apparently the touchy butt-hurt topics these days are the virginia elections, everyone being a pussy, and flashlights.

What ever happened to 9mm vs 45? :cool:

FWIW, I like carrying multi-mode lights. I've been in a 9 day power outage with just a high power light, and it died in fairly short order because I had to use it for the more mundane tasks of life.

I've been through a pretty good amount of low-light/no-light training and haven't had a problem with my multi-mode lights, though I can see how some of them are problematic (in particular ones that require you to switch to get to high). I am happy with my Streamlight USB 2L-X and it's Max-Strobe-Low mode. I do not find the idea of carrying multiple lights in street clothes (and especially suits) to be pragmatic. If I was in high profile kit, my opinion might change.

YMMV.

Flame on, since I'm a millennial LEO with a beard who moved to Virginia from NJ as a federal employee and use a multi-mode light......as well as every other reason according to the internet that I am the cause of all wrong in the world.


https://i.imgflip.com/3g5822.jpg

[TGS]

HAHAHAHA YES!

[Magsz]

Now who is trolling?

I'm still waiting for a compelling argument for low light functionality for real world applications of lights.

I already presented several. You disregarded it and told me that your "non absolutist" stance trumped my "im all for options stance..."

You're contradicting yourself.

[Magsz]

TGS...

Go on.....

Do you use beard oil? :P

[runcible]

Hey friend, let's agree to disagree. We do different things and with different restrictions, and we both are down the line of different sets of experiences; and that's ok.

[Gray222]

I already presented several. You disregarded it and told me that your "non absolutist" stance trumped my "im all for options stance..."

You're contradicting yourself.

Not at all, you are reading what you want to read, confirmation bias is a thing.

I genuinely hope you don't need a full power light in a pinch when you only have low power options available.

[Magsz]

Two way street...voodoo. You do you.

runcible

10-4.

[NH Shooter]

My guess is I have around $175 into it.

From the Malkoff website;

MD3 body with switch (https://malkoffdevices.com/collections/parts-and-miscellaneous-items/products/md3-body-and-switch) - $63.99. If you email them you can get a link to the body without the tailcap (around $45.00 sans the switch).

M91T head (https://malkoffdevices.com/collections/large-malkoff-led-flashlights/products/m91t-md3) - $106.99

Of course 15% or 20% off Malkoff coupons can be had by posting a review.

You'll have to watch ebay and/or use your Google Fu to track down the Surefire tailcap. Figure $20 to $40.

The Raven Concealment clip (https://rcsgear.com/surefire-p-and-g-series-pocket-clip/) is $14.99.

If you use the SF tailcap you MUST use IMR 18500 flat top cells - protected cells are too long for use with the shorter SF tailcap. Three CR123A batteries still fit, though.

Correction on the head used: The M91T head as listed above, not the M91B as in my original post. Sorry for the error.

[paperman]

So.

Watching trends on the Instagram is hilarious. New product gets released, people gush about it with pretty photos and a sentence or two about how awesome it is but rarely does anyone explain WHY its awesome.

Enter Modlight and their soon to be released handhelds featuring their OKW and PLH (I dunno if they're offering both heads) heads.

I literally CANNOT wrap my head around a single output handheld light.

I've asked people for use case explanations and no one has offered up anything compelling.

ALL of my EDC lights are dual stage high/low or low/high.

ALL of my work lights are the same.

Weaponlights are completely different and I think everyone can agree that weaponlights should be single stage.

Can anyone offer me up a compelling reason as to why a single stage light is a useful tool? Who would want this? What is the application? How is it used?

Lucy 'Splain.

My take on why people prefer single output for most situations boils down to two reasons.

1) Keep It Simple Stupid aka KISS

Let’s say all of ones weapon lights are bright single output and press for momentary and click/twist for constant on. Then let’s say your weapon light fails or the battery dies, but that’s ok because your edc light is the exact same setup.

You can always adapt and find items or ways to make a bright light useful but you can’t make a dim light brighter or throw farther. Downside with bright single output is battery life.

2) Durable, reliable, and proven

Multi function multi output lights have come a long way and most are of equal quality, but most people would say that a single output simple tail cap is the most durable and dependable type. Which I would think is why almost all weapon lights are this type and why most people suggest these for hard use.

Personally I am a big fan of the 2 is one 1 is none mindset
I carry a surefire or streamlight tactical high only and an olight s1r baton







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NH Shooter]

Multi function multi output lights have come a long way and most are of equal quality, but most people would say that a single output simple tail cap is the most durable and dependable type. Which I would think is why almost all weapon lights are this type and why most people suggest these for hard use.

I concur. The gist of the OP questioned the utility of single-output lights. When purpose-built as above, they absolutely excel in this role.

Here is the same light I've described in this thread mounted on my 1187P, only change is the Malkoff shrouded tailcap;

https://i.ibb.co/n3Ld8hC/1187P-2.jpg


I've experimented with many different lights on this shotgun (including dedicated WMLs) and this setup is the best to date: the switch is within easy reach, the head is far enough forward to avoid major barrel shadow, and of course the light itself is perfectly suited for the task. I've run this setup in a shotgun training class and it performed admirably. It also fits my preference of having capable lights suitable for both hand held and weapon-mounted use.

That said...

I've never (and hopefully never will) been in a situation where the use of deadly force would be justified. Yet every day in the winter months I use a handheld light to take the dogs out for their final relief of the day, and find daily need for an illumination tool for mundane tasks. For this role, smaller multi-output lights are far more useful.

So Magsz I hear what you're saying. Though I'm not a LEO, I can understand that the vast majority of use is for those same, non life-threatening purposes. Yet, your chances of engaging in an armed confrontation are far greater than mine.

If I was in your shoes, and knowing what I've learned through this flashlight hobby, I would take the Malkoff light I've described in this thread and simply add a high/low bezel switch (https://malkoffdevices.com/collections/parts-and-miscellaneous-items/products/high-low-bezel-switch-for-md2). You would still have all the advantages of a dedicated fighting light with the ability to throttle it down for everyday tasks.

I might even make a few other changes to move it a it closer to a task light: use a drop-in that has more even illumination (better for normal use) and install a shrouded clicky tailcap so that it can tail stand and be activated constant-on with a single hand. You would lose some of the advantages of the dedicated fight light, but gain much for utilitarian purposes. In fact, this is exactly the light I use for those nightly dog walks;

https://i.ibb.co/3Bpm6Yw/M91B-2.jpg

The difference in this light is (1) the use of the M91B head (https://malkoffdevices.com/collections/large-malkoff-led-flashlights/products/m91-md3) (1,000 lumens/8,500 lux) with high/low switch and (2) Malkoff shrouded tailcap with clicky (https://malkoffdevices.com/collections/parts-and-miscellaneous-items/products/tailcap-switch-for-md2-md3-or-md4). The low setting of 30 lumens is extremely useful and gives extremely long runtimes, while the high setting is more than enough for any use (life threatening or not). It can be carried in a 6P holster (http://www.kytexgear.com/products-page/surefire-carriers/vertical-surefire-6pg2-carrier/) and is large and sturdy enough to break through a windshield.

IMO, a setup like this is ideal for uniformed LEO light who only carries one light. And as a plug for Gene and Cathy Malkoff, their products are built to last (lifetime warranty), their CS is unmatched and they are huge supporters of the LEO community.

[CCT125US]

Magsz nothing you posted on the listed requires a low setting.


How does this jive with wanting to maintain one's adapted night vision?


Out door use of a standard flashlight won't kill your night vision, only if you bleach a wall or object directly in front of you.

If your adapted night vision is that important to you, use real night vision devices to assist in those tactical operations which require this level of non-white light use.

Let me begin with a question or two, to see if further engagement is worthwile...

Are you open to the possibility you could be wrong?

Why bring up NV and "tactical operations" in a thread about EDC lights? Is that helpful to the OP's question?

[Gray222]

Let me begin with a question or two, to see if further engagement is worthwile...

Are you open to the possibility you could be wrong?

Why bring up NV and "tactical operations" in a thread about EDC lights? Is that helpful to the OP's question?

I carried ten tap streamlights, multioption flashlights on and off duty for years. They did weird things in high stress situations. I can count on one hand how many times I used the low setting or the strobe setting effectively in the last decade+. So, been there done that.

As for the rest, the point made was specific to safety, if you're worried about safety use tools which will allow you to conduct yourself safely.

[CCT125US]

I carried ten tap streamlights, multioption flashlights on and off duty for years. They did weird things in high stress situations. I can count on one hand how many times I used the low setting or the strobe setting effectively in the last decade+. So, been there done that.

As for the rest, the point made was specific to safety, if you're worried about safety use tools which will allow you to conduct yourself safely.

Does not answer my questions quoted below.

I appreciate your service and experience. You do understand your experience may not be applicable to all?


Let me begin with a question or two, to see if further engagement is worthwile...

Are you open to the possibility you could be wrong?

Why bring up NV and "tactical operations" in a thread about EDC lights? Is that helpful to the OP's question?

[Gray222]

Does not answer my questions quoted below.

I appreciate your service and experience. You do understand your experience may not be applicable to all?

If my experience isn't applicable, neither is yours, magsz or anyone else's in this thread.

[CCT125US]

If my experience isn't applicable, neither is yours, magsz or anyone else's in this thread.


Does not answer my questions quoted below.

I appreciate your service and experience. You do understand your experience may not be applicable to all?

And there is the disconnect. I used "applicable to all" in my description of your views and opinions. Most other folks are simply sharing their experience in a friendly exchange of information. When you speak in absolutes it gives off the impression you are invalidating the experience and practices of others.

Still haven't addressed my questions regarding NV and "tactical operations"......since you were the first and only one to introduce those topics, I am interested to hear how they add to the discussion of EDC lights. Of course in your experience.

[Gray222]

And there is the disconnect. I used "applicable to all" in my description of your views and opinions. Most other folks are simply sharing their experience in a friendly exchange of information. When you speak in absolutes it gives off the impression you are invalidating the experience and practices of others.

Still haven't addressed my questions regarding NV and "tactical operations"......since you were the first and only one to introduce those topics, I am interested to hear how they add to the discussion of EDC lights. Of course in your experience.

Never once spoke in absolutes and never once stated anyone else's experience is invalidated, you did however.

Anyway, I've said my part, further conversation on this is fruitless.

[Clusterfrack]

Man, you'd think we were debating which AR is the best.

As a civilian, the best I can (or want to) do is train for worst-case scenarios. Based on my nighttime training I have independently concluded that a single-mode light is the best choice for me. It's not at all surprising to me that some professionals also feel that way. I appreciate hearing from extreme users who get in fights for a living.

So can we please stop giving our SMEs a hard time for being experts? My needs are less extreme, so I don't expect I'll use all of their advice. But it's nice to hear it.

[TGS]

I may have missed it, but I don't think a single person who has posted in this thread qualifies as a SME.

[Clusterfrack]

I may have missed it, but I don't think a single person who has posted in this thread qualifies as a SME.

Seems like most LEOs should qualify for this topic? You have to find and fight bad guys at night. That works for me.

[CCT125US]

I may have missed it, but I don't think a single person who has posted in this thread qualifies as a SME.

Perhaps the answer lies within the post containing the answer to my questions? Should be around here somewhere...


Let me begin with a question or two, to see if further engagement is worthwile...

Are you open to the possibility you could be wrong?

Why bring up NV and "tactical operations" in a thread about EDC lights? Is that helpful to the OP's question?

[Hambo]

Apparently the touchy butt-hurt topics these days are the virginia elections, everyone being a pussy, and flashlights.

Flame on, since I'm a millennial LEO with a beard ...

I don't know if everyone is a pussy, but you must be, because my wife had me set her SL Protac to high power only. For decades we did well with ON-OFF, but now you millennials want 33% power so it doesn't hurt your eyes, or so you don't have to charge your batteries.

OK, I'm done. For WML or a main duty light, OFF-BLIND THEM would be all I need. As it is, cleaning up dog poo does not require 1500 lumens, so I carry a multi-function light.

Someday, kids, if you're good, I'll teach you how we were able to make a bright ON-OFF light emit just a tiny bit of light when needed.

[TGS]

I don't know if everyone is a pussy, but you must be, because my wife had me set her SL Protac to high power only. For decades we did well with ON-OFF, but now you millennials want 33% power so it doesn't hurt your eyes, or so you don't have to charge your batteries.

OK, I'm done. For WML or a main duty light, OFF-BLIND THEM would be all I need. As it is, cleaning up dog poo does not require 1500 lumens, so I carry a multi-function light.

Someday, kids, if you're good, I'll teach you how we were able to make a bright ON-OFF light emit just a tiny bit of light when needed.

My millennial batteries don't last as long on high as yours, either. :D

FWIW, I also have medical responsibilities to my job which is another reason I gravitated towards multi-mode lights about 10 years ago. I'm not just a LEO, but also a medical provider. The super high brightness settings are not so great for certain medical applications, like testing pupil response, and given carrying a specific light for each specific use in street clothes isn't something I consider sensible I'm left with my best option being multi-mode lights that are setup well.

What it really comes down to is that my light does more that just target identification, and the extended battery life of a low setting is directly applicable to my needs. A multi-mode light for a multi-mode man. What can I say?

[mtnbkr]

like testing pupil response
It's been one of those days, so the idea of testing pupil response with a high-output tactical light made me chuckle. :D

Chris

[Trukinjp13]

My favorite high/low switching is clicks switch for on and off. Head twist for low to high. I leave the light on high all the time. But when I need low. And I have needed low hundreds of times, a simple twist does it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RJ]

Someday, kids, if you're good, I'll teach you how we were able to make a bright ON-OFF light emit just a tiny bit of light when needed.

I used to shine my 8D cell Pelican "King Pelican" halogen waterproof dive light through my fingers to see the bones in my hand. True story.

Does that count?

[randyho]

I used to shine my 8D cell Pelican "King Pelican" halogen waterproof dive light through my fingers to see the bones in my hand. True story.

Does that count?
It does.

[Jeff S.]

Out door use of a standard flashlight won't kill your night vision, only if you bleach a wall or object directly in front of you.

If your adapted night vision is that important to you, use real night vision devices to assist in those tactical operations which require this level of non-white light use.



I think your first sentence is a bit disingenuous; something you’d say in an argument to make a point, but not really believe. Of course blasting 100 lumens (let alone a 1,000) from a tactical light will completely ruin your night vision, much more so than from a 20 lumen flashlight. And, good utility lights will have a sub-lumen (firefly) mode.

But I think this whole argument boils down to our preferences (and perhaps hobbies). Saying you use your single mode, tactical flashlight for every day use is akin to somebody saying they use their 4 inch fixed-blade tactical blade for every day use. I think the knife analogy is a good one: can anybody give an instance where a knife is needed but a tactical knife wouldn’t suffice? Just because a tactical blade can be used for any situation doesn’t make it the best tool for the job. A person can easily get by with just a single knife or a single flashlight (the vast majority of people, remember, carry neither).


“I'm still waiting for a compelling argument for low light functionality for real world applications of lights.”

It’s not just low light. It’s multiple brightness levels, a wider beam, longer runtimes, and better tint and high CRI. All the things that make a good tactical light (focused beam, single mode, momentary only, and 100+ lumens) are all things that distract from most other uses of a flashlight. Qualities that make a good utility light (infinite brightness levels, wider beam, high CRI, long runtimes) compliment almost every use of light.

Real world application of a utility light: checking IDs, checking eyes, checking pallor of skin, examining cables in an electrical box, opening/closing vault combos, looking for loose objects in confined spaces, when using a light for an extended period (runtime and heat), unlocking/locking doors, lighting the path on a walk, purposefully giving away your position (wanting to be seen by cars or locating friends), working on a car... I frequently use my HDS for such applications, and, IMHO, 500 lumens would be overkill to the point of inappropriate in all of them.

[Gray222]

I think your first sentence is a bit disingenuous; something you’d say in an argument to make a point, but not really believe. Of course blasting 100 lumens (let alone a 1,000) from a tactical light will completely ruin your night vision, much more so than from a 20 lumen flashlight. And, good utility lights will have a sub-lumen (firefly) mode.

But I think this whole argument boils down to our preferences (and perhaps hobbies). Saying you use your single mode, tactical flashlight for every day use is akin to somebody saying they use their 4 inch fixed-blade tactical blade for every day use. I think the knife analogy is a good one: can anybody give an instance where a knife is needed but a tactical knife wouldn’t suffice? Just because a tactical blade can be used for any situation doesn’t make it the best tool for the job. A person can easily get by with just a single knife or a single flashlight (the vast majority of people, remember, carry neither).


“I'm still waiting for a compelling argument for low light functionality for real world applications of lights.”

It’s not just low light. It’s multiple brightness levels, a wider beam, longer runtimes, and better tint and high CRI. All the things that make a good tactical light (focused beam, single mode, momentary only, and 100+ lumens) are all things that distract from most other uses of a flashlight. Qualities that make a good utility light (infinite brightness levels, wider beam, high CRI, long runtimes) compliment almost every use of light.

Real world application of a utility light: checking IDs, checking eyes, checking pallor of skin, examining cables in an electrical box, opening/closing vault combos, looking for loose objects in confined spaces, when using a light for an extended period (runtime and heat), unlocking/locking doors, lighting the path on a walk, purposefully giving away your position (wanting to be seen by cars or locating friends), working on a car... I frequently use my HDS for such applications, and, IMHO, 500 lumens would be overkill to the point of inappropriate in all of them.

You can think it's disingenuous, that's fine, it's your opinion.

I do use a 4 inch blade for nearly everything, it's called the northman blade.

I don't need multiple modes, multiple purpose, multiple whatevers from a flashlight. I need a single option light that does a lot of things okay and one very important thing well - threat ID / blinding bad guys.

All the circumstances you mentioned that you may believe requires low beams, wide beams, whatever other options, I can and have effectively done with a single output light.

There are numerous methods of restraining light flow from a flashlight, the more you use a light in the world the more you learn them.

As I stated numerous times already, low power setting on a light is, in my opinion, mainly because of the long run times the companies can market.

[M2CattleCo]

To me, if you're doing anything that requires a gun in your hand, a single output light is best as it is being used as a weapon light. If you properly use it AS a weapon light, for doing weapon things, you won't blind yourself or need a dim setting.

If you're trying to rummage through a trunk, read papers, not step in dogshit, 1K lumens could be more troublesome than 15.

I

[drummer]

My biggest issue with a high single output light is the runtime and the heat. For example the modlight has a 35min runtime. I haven't read anything about the heat but if it's anything like my Malkoff I'm sure it gets hot quick.

Since I didn't see anyone else answer it...when I first got my OKW i left it on with a new 18350. It ran about 40 minutes before flashing, indicating that it was dieing. It never got hot in the least bit. Modlites thermal management seems to be very well done.

For what its worth, I've got a Malkoff Superhoundog that I use when performing a more traditional patrol/security (off duty) function. It allows me to turn the bezel slightly and reduce the output from 1100 lumens to 60. A quick turn and it's back to full power. It works pretty well for me.

[Clusterfrack]

For what its worth, I've got a Malkoff Superhoundog that I use when performing a more traditional patrol/security (off duty) function. It allows me to turn the bezel slightly and reduce the output from 1100 lumens to 60. A quick turn and it's back to full power. It works pretty well for me.

I like that Malkoff feature as well, but I've had the bezel turn to low by itself in my pocket. It seems like it wouldn't take much impact or grappling to make it go on low. I don't like that.

[NH Shooter]

I like that Malkoff feature as well, but I've had the bezel turn to low by itself in my pocket. It seems like it wouldn't take much impact or grappling to make it go on low. I don't like that.

A combination of yellow Teflon tape (they heavy kind used for gas piping, one lap) with a coating of SuperLube grease applied to the body threads works wonders.

[JTQ]

So.

Watching trends on the Instagram is hilarious. New product gets released, people gush about it with pretty photos and a sentence or two about how awesome it is but rarely does anyone explain WHY its awesome.

Enter Modlight and their soon to be released handhelds featuring their OKW and PLH (I dunno if they're offering both heads) heads.

I literally CANNOT wrap my head around a single output handheld light.
I question the "new trends" is the single output light. The multi-function, multi-output lights are the new trends to my understanding.

I'm not LE and don't own anything over 200 lumens, so that may make a difference, but all my lights are single output. I won't own a multi-output light since I don't want to tap dance my way through a switch to get the light I expect when I push the button. I have multiple lights with different outputs and select the appropriate light for the task.

[Jeff S.]

You can think it's disingenuous, that's fine, it's your opinion.

I do use a 4 inch blade for nearly everything, it's called the northman blade.

I don't need multiple modes, multiple purpose, multiple whatevers from a flashlight. I need a single option light that does a lot of things okay and one very important thing well - threat ID / blinding bad guys.

All the circumstances you mentioned that you may believe requires low beams, wide beams, whatever other options, I can and have effectively done with a single output light.

There are numerous methods of restraining light flow from a flashlight, the more you use a light in the world the more you learn them.

As I stated numerous times already, low power setting on a light is, in my opinion, mainly because of the long run times the companies can market.



We have our preferences of course, but it’s not an opinion that 1,000 lumens will affect night vision more than 20 lumens. The reason I called it disingenuous is because I don’t think anybody, including you, believes it.


I understand, and fully agree with the idea that a tactical light needs to do one thing really well. I usually carry two lights, but when I only grab one, it’s the Surefire.

But you’re speaking strongly from an LE prospective, which is fine, but (following the knife analogy), it’s like you’re arguing with outdoorsman that your Northman blade is effective as their fillet knives at dressing fish, or as effective at woodworking as their survival knives. Sure it can be done, and even done well, but it’s not the same thing as using a tool that’s meant for the job. Can you fillet a 15 pound trout with your Northman? Sure. I wouldn’t want to fillet a 50 pound halibut with it. Could you whittle some kindling with it? Sure, but you wouldn’t want to cut branches with it. The point is, knives and flashlights are tools, and the requirement of one application can limit the usefulness of a tool for another application. You can “restrain the flow from a flashlight,” but that also translates as “there are better tools for this job.”

[Clusterfrack]

Here’s a pic of a bunch of my lights. I also have a bunch of knives and guns, but find that I carry one much more than all the others. Sometimes I’ll pocket a compact multimode light like the Nitecore or the Klarus when I really need that. The Klarus XT2C is a nice compromise because it always comes on high.

But the Malkoff BG2 has been my EDC for as long as I’ve owned it. I guess it's kind of a 2-mode light because after 10s of 1100 lumens, it kicks down to maybe half that.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191114/03305d6d9fbf435cee4ca35b8a28f127.jpg

[ssb]

I'm not quite at the level of preparedness for the movies to carry two or more lights in my pocket so I like having a low option for things that don't involve blinding people. However, I want that low option to require a deliberate movement separate from the blind people option. The Surefire gas pedal is a nice compromise for me. I think it's a poor choice for most two-handed flashlight techniques (syringe, etc.) but I've never really been able to make those work for me so it's not a problem for me.

But that's just like, my opinion man.

[TGS]

I won't own a multi-output light since I don't want to tap dance my way through a switch to get the light I expect when I push the button.

There are options on the market that will come on maximum power when you hit the button. You don't have to cycle to get the "oh shit" setting.

Your statement is akin to someone saying, "I wont own a semi-automatic pistol because I don't want to have to swipe off a safety", which is a flawed approach since there are semi-autos without manual safeties.

[Gray222]

We have our preferences of course, but it’s not an opinion that 1,000 lumens will affect night vision more than 20 lumens. The reason I called it disingenuous is because I don’t think anybody, including you, believes it.


I understand, and fully agree with the idea that a tactical light needs to do one thing really well. I usually carry two lights, but when I only grab one, it’s the Surefire.

But you’re speaking strongly from an LE prospective, which is fine, but (following the knife analogy), it’s like you’re arguing with outdoorsman that your Northman blade is effective as their fillet knives at dressing fish, or as effective at woodworking as their survival knives. Sure it can be done, and even done well, but it’s not the same thing as using a tool that’s meant for the job. Can you fillet a 15 pound trout with your Northman? Sure. I wouldn’t want to fillet a 50 pound halibut with it. Could you whittle some kindling with it? Sure, but you wouldn’t want to cut branches with it. The point is, knives and flashlights are tools, and the requirement of one application can limit the usefulness of a tool for another application. You can “restrain the flow from a flashlight,” but that also translates as “there are better tools for this job.”

I've never said that light does not effect night vision, reread what my statements were on this topic.

Your additional knife analogy is flawed, as there are "filet kits" and anyone who has ever filleted a fish knows that you need a very specific knife to do that type of work, sure a regular knife will do, but a one purpose built blade does it the right way with the least amount of room for error. So you proved my point in time in effect, one tool which does one thing really really well with not that many options to do other things.

Restricting flow of a light isn't indicative of needing another tool, of course there may be better 7lumen output lights for reading a VIN, but they can't blind a dude whose not showing his hands and they can't help me clear a dark room in a seconds blast into it. The opposite is completely true however.

[rob_s]

I’m not an LE guy, and I don’t harbor too many fantasies about nighttime gunfights at the Walmart anymore. When I carry a light it’s under the “best camera” philosophy. Which, come to think of it, is the same philosophy I apply when I carry a gun.

I came into this thread thinking I’d agree with the OP about dual-mode lights, and my “edc” light (Streamlight 66604 250 Lumen MicroStream USB Rechargable Pocket Flashlight https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077BLB1DN/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_0WsZDb1GCYXV5) is a dual mode (I think. Frankly I have so many of the little buggers floating around, I may well have an older, non-rechargeable, single-mode in my pocket from time to time). This one, I think, starts out on low and then goes to high. I have the other version of the same light, in tan, that I think starts out on high and then goes to low with some variation of clicking. I don’t carry that one.

All of that said, in the age of all the lumens (which I also think is pretty gay, in general), it’s also the age of pretty amazing amounts of light from pretty amazingly small packages. And while I’m. It a cop, if I were, I think I’d be inclined to separate my task light from my tactical light.

BTW, to whoever said “I don’t use my phone as a flashlight because I’m not a 16 year old girl”, that shit was funny as hell. Around here, in SE FL, the worse offenders are the geriatric crowd that want to go to some hip, young people, restaurant that’s poorly lit and then use their phone and reading glasses to try and scrutinize the menu, all the while swinging the goddamn thing around shining it in the eyes of everyone else in the place. Generally on,y to arrive at asking the waiter for a Michelobe Ultra anyway.

[RJ]

...the geriatric crowd that want to go to some hip, young people, restaurant that’s poorly lit and then use their phone and reading glasses to try and scrutinize the menu, all the while swinging the goddamn thing around shining it in the eyes of everyone else in the place. Generally on,y to arrive at asking the waiter for a Michelobe Ultra anyway.

Dammit Rob it was a Yuengling. :cool:



On topic: This thread made me go look for a small flashlight with a "moonlight" feature - i.e. a setting of approximately 1 Lumen. Any thoughts on one of those?

I found this one on a web search and was going to order one to check it out, unless there is a better option?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PQYH792/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A2GC9M5Y9S011X&psc=1

[JTQ]

There are options on the market that will come on maximum power when you hit the button. You don't have to cycle to get the "oh shit" setting.
Fair enough. Are there options that have more than one switch, such as a selector that lets me choose a light level, and then a button on that turns the light on?

[CCT125US]

.....further conversation on this is fruitless.

Further conversation listed below.....




I do use a 4 inch blade for nearly everything...

I don't need multiple modes, multiple purpose, multiple whatevers from a flashlight. I need a single option light that does a lot of things okay and one very important thing well - threat ID / blinding bad guys.

...I can and have effectively done with a single output light.

...the more you use a light in the world the more you learn them.

As I stated numerous times already..

Still coming up with an answer?


Let me begin with a question or two, to see if further engagement is worthwile...

Are you open to the possibility you could be wrong?

Why bring up NV and "tactical operations" in a thread about EDC lights? Is that helpful to the OP's question?

[bravo7]

Fair enough. Are there options that have more than one switch, such as a selector that lets me choose a light level, and then a button on that turns the light on?

Yes, there are many out there. I use a Fenix for those options you listed for a specific purpose.

[rob_s]

On topic: This thread made me go look for a small flashlight with a "moonlight" feature - i.e. a setting of approximately 1 Lumen. Any thoughts on one of those?

I found this one on a web search and was going to order one to check it out, unless there is a better option?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PQYH792/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A2GC9M5Y9S011X&psc=1

I swear I used to see a lot of cops with something like this in their pocket, next to their other pens, for use *with* their pens. I also seem to recollect that my seeing them with this light was when they had me pulled over for one suspected traffic infraction or another...

Streamlight 65018 Stylus 3-AAAA LED Pen Light, Black with White Light 6-1/4-Inch - 11 Lumens (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00008BFS5/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_7-uZDbA75N2PD)

[Mirolynmonbro]

Dammit Rob it was a Yuengling. :cool:



On topic: This thread made me go look for a small flashlight with a "moonlight" feature - i.e. a setting of approximately 1 Lumen. Any thoughts on one of those?

I found this one on a web search and was going to order one to check it out, unless there is a better option?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PQYH792/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A2GC9M5Y9S011X&psc=1

The Thrunite ti4 is a good looking option with
Firefly(0.3 lumens, 137hours), Low (24 lumens, 12hours), High (252 lumens, 51minutes), Strobe (252 lumens, 90 minutes)

Another is Nitecore MT06MD. Output / Runtimes:- High: 180 Lumens / 45 min - Mid: 45 Lumens / 5 hr 15 min - Low: 4 Lumens / 35 hr

[Gio]

I'm late to this thread, but here's my take (from a plain clothes LEO point of view):

I have a single output handheld (surefire 6P with Malkoff M61) on my SWAT vest. It's a backup to my weapon mounted lights and allows me to do secondary clears without pointing weapons everywhere. I don't really need or want a dual output light for this purpose, and I change the batteries before any planned operation, so I don't really need to worry about battery life either.

For everything else, I prefer a smaller, multi output light like the Streamlight Protac 2L or the Surefire EDCL-1T for all the reasons stated so far in the thread.

I like flashlights, but I don't go out and upgrade what I'm using every time a company comes out with a 100 lumen upgrade.

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

I'm not quite at the level of preparedness for the movies to carry two or more lights in my pocket so I like having a low option for things that don't involve blinding people. However, I want that low option to require a deliberate movement separate from the blind people option. The Surefire gas pedal is a nice compromise for me. I think it's a poor choice for most two-handed flashlight techniques (syringe, etc.) but I've never really been able to make those work for me so it's not a problem for me.

But that's just like, my opinion man.

Same. You said it more eloquently than I could've.

[Borderland]

I'm totally in the dark here.

I have no weapons lights. My utility lights have different modes, most of which I never use.

But I'm not normal. ;)

[RJ]

The Thrunite ti4 is a good looking option with Firefly(0.3 lumens, 137hours), Low (24 lumens, 12hours), High (252 lumens, 51minutes), Strobe (252 lumens, 90 minutes)



Much obliged. I ordered one of these.

Appreciate it!

[Clusterfrack]

The lights we've been discussing fall in three categories:

1. Single-mode: on high all the time

2. Multi-mode (High default): high output on first press, no matter what. E.g. Klarus XT2C.

3. Multi-mode (user selected default): output on first press depends on user setting. E.g. Fenix, Nitecore, Thrunite, etc.)

Since I use my EDC lights as life-safety equipment, I strongly prefer types 1 and 2. Some lights have a mechanical setting (like the bezel) to select high or low, which is a nice compromise.

Many multi-mode 'tactical' lights have special settings to activate high or strobe, like a long press of the side switch. I don't like these for the same reason I don't carry guns with manual safeties.

[Erick Gelhaus]

GJM told me not to post beyond the 5th page. I'll violate that advise but only a bit.

In terms of switchology and light employment - if in potential harm's way - I want the brightest light possible coming from a simple press-on activation. That's it. No strobe, not stepping up or don with additional presses. Just on now & bright or off now. And the low light stuff I have works along that line.

I strongly agree with the positions presented by AMC, SoCalDep, and VoodooMan.

[TGS]

In terms of switchology and light employment - if in potential harm's way - I want the brightest light possible coming from a simple press-on activation. That's it. No strobe, not stepping up or don with additional presses.

Just the same as I addressed this previously:


There are options on the market that will come on maximum power when you hit the button. You don't have to cycle to get the "oh shit" setting.

Your statement is akin to someone saying, "I wont own a semi-automatic pistol because I don't want to have to swipe off a safety", which is a flawed approach since there are semi-autos without manual safeties.

[Magsz]

Just the same as I addressed this previously:

Im not saying everyone, but a lot of people don't appear to be listening to each other.

There are plenty of lights available with non confusing interfaces that allow the end user to mode select accordingly without fear of accidentally using the wrong mode in the wrong situation. Some may read this as my own personal bias but most of the people posting uses for multi mode lights are posting actual use case to strengthen their positions.

This discussion is starting to read similar to discussions regarding fine motor skills versus gross motor skills. I'm almost to the point where i regret starting this discussion as the original intent was to try and broaden my horizons by gathering other peoples experiences to better understand why a 350 dollar single output handheld light is a thing, rather than a fad. I'm always looking for new ways to do things at work and in my every day life that may make things more efficient.

Instead, the discussion, save a few posters, has devolved into "multi mode lights will get you "kilt in da streetz".

I had no idea people were this passionate about light selection and employment doctrine.

[SoCalDep]

Im not saying everyone, but a lot of people don't appear to be listening to each other.

There are plenty of lights available with non confusing interfaces that allow the end user to mode select accordingly without fear of accidentally using the wrong mode in the wrong situation. Some may read this as my own personal bias but most of the people posting uses for multi mode lights are posting actual use case to strengthen their positions.

This discussion is starting to read similar to discussions regarding fine motor skills versus gross motor skills. I'm almost to the point where i regret starting this discussion as the original intent was to try and broaden my horizons by gathering other peoples experiences to better understand why a 350 dollar single output handheld light is a thing, rather than a fad. I'm always looking for new ways to do things at work and in my every day life that may make things more efficient.

Instead, the discussion, save a few posters, has devolved into "multi mode lights will get you "kilt in da streetz".

I had no idea people were this passionate about light selection and employment doctrine.

I am passionate, but I agree that many of us are talking past each other. I own lotsa guns... for lotsa reasons. I own lotsa lights... for lotsa reasons.

I think that trying to make a light that isn’t best for fighting into something that is OK for fighting is accepting drawbacks. That may be ok based on lifestyle, threat assessment, etc, but should not be confused as being “just as good as”. At the same time, I have a bunch of multi-mode lights, and carry them with a good fighting UI. Even without a fighting UI, multi-mode lights are far more edc practical than a fighting light... until you have to fight.

Therefore I think a lot of this is needs, but I also think there are some things we all have to truthfully reflect upon. I teach these three main failures of instruction in low light:

Conditioning and reinforcement - “I’ve done thousands of T-Stops and hundreds of entries”, or “I’ve carried a light for fifteen years and this one always worked for me”.... as Mike Pannone said, participation doesn’t equal proficiency. How many times during those stops, entries, or your daily life did someone try to kill you?

Failure to address realistic student needs - Why are we carrying a light? Are we trying to find our keys or are we integrating a hand held light with a handgun to solve a life and death problem in the dark? They are NOT the same and the proper tools, training, practice, and techniques differ.

Institutional Inertia and Tactical dogmaticism - “This is how we’ve always done it” or “We learned this from (cool-guy club) and they are rad so it must be good for us and every other less and less motivated, educated, and skilled person out there.”

If you want to find your keys and maybe fight but not really enough to have the best fighting light, get one of the many task-based multi-mode lights.

If you want to be prepared to fight, but know that you’re way more likely to need to find your keys then get one of the multi-mode lights with a “tactical” UI. Some are better than others and some suck.

If you’re concerned primarily about fighting and willing to work to make that light work for task stuff, or you are willing to carry a separate light for task stuff... Get a light that is best for fighting.

There are few to none in the way of lights that are best at everything... that’s why there are lotsa lights and why we own lotsa lights.

The primary question by the OP is why would one want a single mode light. My answer is that I carry a gun all the time on and off duty... including at home. If I expect to use the light in conjunction with a handgun I want a light that will activate on high only with a tail-cap press, and turn off when I let go. I don’t want anything else. Any other option is to support other needs at the expense of fighting with a pistol. Not a bad thing, but we all need to accept the reality of our choices.

[rob_s]

Im not saying everyone, but a lot of people don't appear to be listening to each other.

I wish I could say “it’s the internet, what did you expect would happen” but it’s not really just the internet anymore.

People are pretty stuck on what they think, and increasingly enotionally attached to their purchases and what said purchases say about their intelligence, experience, manhood, etc. usually the least confident are the loudest.

So if you keep that in mind when reading through the the thread, or in having real life conversation, you should be able to put a relative score to the various opinions, keeping in mind that the ones you see with the most vitriol are probably the least valuable.

Or, you can try to take your own emotion out of the equation, read past the posts for those that seem to have missed their nap (maybe they work nights too? ;) ) and look for the u deploying message.

It seems that the base camps here are:

Some folks see a value in having two modes in one light because they only want to carry one light
Others think that if you need a second mode beyond your gun fighting light then you should carry a second light
Still others think that you can use allthelumens for administrative tasks too if you bounce/shield/deflect/cover your bezel the right way and therefore don’t need a second mode at all



You’re unlikely to change any of their opinions (including maybe your own?) but that’s how I see the thread shaking out so far and if you’re in camp 1 then you might only want to read posts by folks that are in your same camp.

[Gray222]

I have an emotional attachment to living, and will use the tools necessary to achieve that end. Sometimes the use of such tools evolve through experience in real world circumstances, sometimes they don't.

Having a single mode flashlight for real world use falls into the evolved experience category.

[JTQ]

Im not saying everyone, but a lot of people don't appear to be listening to each other.

Instead, the discussion, save a few posters, has devolved into "multi mode lights will get you "kilt in da streetz".

I had no idea people were this passionate about light selection and employment doctrine.

It was kind of apparent in your OP...


I literally CANNOT wrap my head around a single output handheld light.

I've asked people for use case explanations and no one has offered up anything compelling.

Can anyone offer me up a compelling reason as to why a single stage light is a useful tool? Who would want this? What is the application? How is it used?

Lucy 'Splain.
I think a compelling reason would be that one prefers a single output light. However, I don't think that may be compelling enough.

It's like a "give me a compelling reason why you wouldn't choose a Glock", or "give me a compelling reason why you wouldn't carry AIWB", or "give me a compelling reason why you wouldn't choose a 9mm semi-auto". Folks have all kind of reasons for choosing something different, but their reasons may not seem compelling to someone else.

If you're deep into any of those things, pretty much no answer will sound compelling to you because you believe you've thought through the process and made the correct decision and those that choose something else have not thought through the issue properly, because if they had, they would agree with you.

I appreciate the explanations from folks that pointed out some of my misconceptions about multi-output lights, but along the line of what Gio said, I have a bunch of lights and...


I like flashlights, but I don't go out and upgrade what I'm using every time a company comes out with a 100 lumen upgrade.

Some perspectives may be age related. If you started off using MagLites with an off/on button, a 65 lumen incandescent Surefire was an incredible advancement. If you started out using a 320 lumen LED, your light perspective may be different.

In addition, since this isn't specifically in the LE sub-forum, you're going to get different answers and reasons from LE and non-LE users.

[Borderland]

If you're deep into any of those things, pretty much no answer will sound compelling to you because you believe you've thought through the process and made the correct decision and those that choose something else have not thought through the issue properly, because if they had, they would agree with you.

It's obvious to me that I haven't thought through the issue properly.

I didn't realize a light was a life or death thing.

Well, maybe, if it were coming from an alien ship. Then it's probably too late anyway.

[orionz06]

TIL: You can indeed look for your dropped pun in your car incorrectly.

[vcdgrips]

Really late to the party..but WTH...it's friday. Long winded post ahead.

At 54 knocking 55, I suspect my flashlight journey is a bit longer than most on the forum. My Groomsmen gift in 1993 was a 5 cell C Maglight because it was quite bright and handled better than the D cell of the same size.

Soon thereafter, I purchased the 65 lumen Laser Products/Surefire branded 6p and the rest is history (it resides in my work desk drawer as we speak.) Other than a slight detour with the 80-100 lumen Gladius, I carried some version of that single output light (G2s), to include upgraded 200ish lumen LED ones until 2009 when I met TLG and went to a 4 Sevens Quark with its default on high and bezel turnable to high strobe. I still carry that light today.

Ask yourself an honest question, those of you with multimode lights, how many of you got the wrong mode when you decided to light the light? I know it happened to me a few times with the Gladius and that UI, to my limited mind, seemed easier than most to navigate/manipulate.

I am in the high beam default mode camp. I suspect if I was an agent/officer and my life depended on me having as much light as possible, reliably, when I needed it, I would run something single output from surefire in 600+ lumens and drive on.

It is not that hard to "shield" it with your hand for reduced light needs.

FWIW/YMMV Greatly.

[SouthNarc]

Around here, in SE FL, the worse offenders are the geriatric crowd that want to go to some hip, young people, restaurant that’s poorly lit and then use their phone and reading glasses to try and scrutinize the menu, all the while swinging the goddamn thing around shining it in the eyes of everyone else in the place. Generally on,y to arrive at asking the waiter for a Michelobe Ultra anyway.

Not a Michelobe Ultra guy but I might have used my phone to read a menu once or twice. I snap a pic of it then expand it so I can see.

[NH Shooter]

I snap a pic of it then expand it so I can see.

Holy crap, my wife does that!

[RJ]

Not a Michelobe Ultra guy but I might have used my phone to read a menu once or twice. I snap a pic of it then expand it so I can see.

Awesome.

I literally never thought of that.

[Clusterfrack]

Not a Michelobe Ultra guy but I might have used my phone to read a menu once or twice. I snap a pic of it then expand it so I can see.

Dude, get with it. All the old blind guys do this:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191115/13ea28efef4abfe47121c24b09670007.jpg

[RJ]

Thrunite Ti4 arrived.

ThruNite Ti4 CW lm Compact LED Penlight, Cool White
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00WWOZN5E/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_TdXZDbP9E7D9G

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191115/39024cee9da537fef223c50c086ee988.jpg

(Mini-Schnauzer for scale)

It defaults to firefly, which is what I wanted by the bed. It has a multi-mode as well. I will obviously get kilt in the streetz because of that, but for $20, I’ll risk it. :cool:

[Magsz]

It was kind of apparent in your OP...

I think a compelling reason would be that one prefers a single output light. However, I don't think that may be compelling enough.

It's like a "give me a compelling reason why you wouldn't choose a Glock", or "give me a compelling reason why you wouldn't carry AIWB", or "give me a compelling reason why you wouldn't choose a 9mm semi-auto". Folks have all kind of reasons for choosing something different, but their reasons may not seem compelling to someone else.

If you're deep into any of those things, pretty much no answer will sound compelling to you because you believe you've thought through the process and made the correct decision and those that choose something else have not thought through the issue properly, because if they had, they would agree with you.

I appreciate the explanations from folks that pointed out some of my misconceptions about multi-output lights, but along the line of what Gio said, I have a bunch of lights and...



Some perspectives may be age related. If you started off using MagLites with an off/on button, a 65 lumen incandescent Surefire was an incredible advancement. If you started out using a 320 lumen LED, your light perspective may be different.

In addition, since this isn't specifically in the LE sub-forum, you're going to get different answers and reasons from LE and non-LE users.

I'm a pretty open minded person. I'm not married to my gear and as I've said, I'm always looking for more efficient ways to do things.

What spawned this discussion was an individual posting a picture of the modlight handheld and touting how awesome it was. I raised an eyebrow and asked him if he could explain his use case surrounding a single output high lumen light. His response was "it depends" with nothing more offered. That comment created this conversation as I wanted a better explanation that I was clearly not going to get from someone who got their light for free. There's also a little more to this as when the gas pedal Surefire EDC lights came out, this individual also touted how "near perfect" they were. I appreciate that this person is/was not an absolutist but I wanted more extrapolation on his thoughts which never came.

I don't mind that its not an LE sub forum. I don't want ONLY law enforcement to respond to this question as non LEO types use lights in much the same way that LEO types do. The only real difference there is that LEO types tend to use their lights A LOT more than the average civilian due to the nature of a night shift Deputy/Cop.

I like Socal's comments and I appreciate his candor here. I think that where he and I may differ is that it all comes down to priorities and what you're comfortable with using. I don't want to say that I'm prioritizing defensive or offensive use of a handheld less than say reading a VIN # because I'm not, I just haven't been limited in my uses with my current gear which at this time, affords me a TON of flexibility.

I MAY be biased as my gear is somewhat unique. I have a completely separate button for low output and high output and confusing the two is almost impossible given the design of the light. I AM limited in my chosen employment techniques as syringe style holds are not possible as well as some other modified two handed light techniques but I haven't felt hampered during FOF, low light training or simple practice not having those techniques in my repertoire.

[Gray222]

re; modlite

Having used their OKW head in the real world, it already saved me from having to shoot a dude, due to how much of a hotspot it produces in short distances. I am looking forward to using their handheld 18650 setup with the arisaka defense momentary&click on/off only.

[bravo7]

re; modlite

Having used their OKW head in the real world, it already saved me from having to shoot a dude, due to how much of a hotspot it produces in short distances. I am looking forward to using their handheld 18650 setup with the arisaka defense momentary&click on/off only.

Are you seriously saying that without this special oh so hot right now head or using any other light and the dude would’ve been shot?.......gtfo

[Magsz]

Are you seriously saying that without this special oh so hot right now head or using any other light and the dude would’ve been shot?.......gtfo

Yeah...I'm right there with you Bravo.

'Cause the rest of us have never done that with OTHER lights...

Come on man..

[NH Shooter]

Looking on the Modlight site (https://modlite.com/collections/handheld-lights) it's evident that their stuff is both very specialized and very expensive. The handheld light that is the subject of the discussion cost $350, but it's specs are indeed impressive. In terms of output, most multimode lights are toys in comparison.

The impressive specs come from being limited to a 18650 Li-ion rechargeable cell which is needed to handle the current draw of such high output. Two CR123A cells would physically fit in the body but they would literally explode and/or burn-up in short order, thus the warning on the Modlight site: "Lithium CR123 cells are not supported and if used will cause the cells to heat up and possibly explode or catch fire."

Since companies like Surefire and Malkoff keep their lights CR123A compatible, their products are restricted by how much current those batteries can handle. Higher output requires the light to be large enough to fit three or four CR123A cells in the body to keep the voltage higher and the amp draw down.

FWIW, the 69,000 lux of the OKW model is bright enough to be used as a weapon itself within pistol-fighting range. If you've never been hit in your dark-adapted eyes with such intense light, I respectfully submit that you're arguing from ignorance.

Below is my Malkoff Hound Dog Super (https://malkoffdevices.com/collections/large-malkoff-led-flashlights/products/malkoff-hound-dog-super-flashlight?variant=32257906371) which is set up on a shorter MD3 body with a pair of 18500 Li-ion cells. At 1,700 lumens/75,000 lux it only slightly exceeds the output of the much smaller Modlight OKW. If anyone wants to take the 75,000 lux-to-the-eyes challenge, don't ask me as I would not want to be held liable for the potential eye injury (think welding without goggles). These warnings on the Malkoff site for this light should be considered "a clue";

This light is capable of causing eye damage at close range. Please use the light responsibly!!!

Caution the Head of the Light WILL GET HOT (180* F after 30 minutes still air, ambient 74* F) during continuous use!!! Please use safety precautions.

Though I agree such specialized lights are nowhere near as useful for everyday tasks, they are without a doubt a huge advantage when used for hostile encounters.

https://i.ibb.co/jVLgBcy/hdsuper-3.jpg

[Magsz]

NH Shooter

I have no doubts about the specs of the light.

In a thread about use case, a post stating a user almost didn’t have to shoot someone because of a light with no other details is as useful as this statement.

“I didn’t have to shoot someone today at work because of insert tool”.

What use is either statement? What do we learn? Nothing.

[NH Shooter]

To add to the post above;

Though I have never tried to attack anyone and thus have no first-hand experience, I have experimented with viewing different lights using a large bedroom dresser mirror. Here is what I've found with daylight-adapted eyesight;

Quark pocket light - though this light has high output for its size (780 lumens in turbo mode), it has a wide even beam and low lux of around 5,000. Using the mirror to reflect the beam directly into my eyes, I find I can hold my eyes open and can still clearly see myself in the mirror (bedroom windows to my back, shades open). If I needed to get sight alignment on my reflection in the mirror it would be no problem.

Malkoff M91B - rated at 1,000 lumens and 8,500 lux. It is brighter than the Quark and a bit of squint is needed, but I could still see my reflection in the mirror.

Malkoff M91T - same head as the M61HOT only set to run at higher voltage, rated at 750 lumens and 19,000 lux this one finally deprived me of being able to see my reflection. Even with daylight-adapted vision and squinty eyes, this light is so bright I cannot look at it in the mirror without discomfort. This is IMO the threshold for a "fighting light."

Malkoff Hound Dog Super - 1,700 lumens and 75,000 lux. You're fucking kidding me; you think I could even keep my eyes open? In my bedroom with the lights on and the shades open on a sunny day, complete and total deprivation of visual input. I either have to completely shut my eyes or look away. Having that ability with your illumination tool is obviously a major advantage in a violent, low-light encounter.

I'd suggest trying the same using your preferred illumination tool to get an idea how effective it would be for that use.

[Gray222]

NH Shooter

I have no doubts about the specs of the light.

In a thread about use case, a post stating a user almost didn’t have to shoot someone because of a light with no other details is as useful as this statement.

“I didn’t have to shoot someone today at work because of insert tool”.

What use is either statement? What do we learn? Nothing.

What's the point of quoting someone and then not actually quoting that user so he would see your response?

It's becoming extremely obvious you aren't looking for knowledge, I don't know what you're looking for.

[BillSWPA]

My current EDC lights are Malkoff Bodyguards - the smaller one if pocket carried, and the larger one it belt carried. They always come on high when the tail switch is first pressed, and always switch to a medium level after about 8 seconds of constant on. That user interface provides the best of both worlds for most uses.

I agree with those that want their EDC lights to be ideal for helping them fight and are willing to accept merely acceptable for everything else. Trying to do mundane everyday tasks in high mode is far better than having a light come on in low when you really need high.

If I really need a different mode, a 3-mode FourSevens CR2 powered light is on my keychain.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NH Shooter]

My current EDC lights are Malkoff Bodyguards -

I've got one in my rotation as well, a very capable light in an EDC-friendly package. Mine is a v.2 head on a SF body with Malkoff E-series tailcap, powered by a 16650 2500mAh cell;

https://i.ibb.co/chT2z03/edc-7.jpg

You can't have too many lights!

[GAP]

I feel like LE uses overshadow most of these conversations. The needs, requirements, and situations are much different but they are always lumped together.

The point of CC is to be a gray man so I have to shake my head at the use of “tactical” lights for every day tasks. If you choose to carry a bright light for defensive uses, carry one that only blasts on high to disorient a potential threat. I have some experience with variable output lights and they are finicky; double tap this, click that, they don’t always respond perfectly. It just seems like unnecessary drama to deal with during a time when you have to rely on muscle memory while amped up on adrenaline.

Your phone has a light for basic tasks and homes have outlets for nightlights if you are that concerned with waking someone up.. Also, sneaking around a movie theater with a tactical light looks anything but normal. Some just take it way too far and miss the point.

[Blades]

Just an idea: Carry more lights? There are hundreds of small lights that are very easy to carry.
I carry a Malkoff MDC as my "emergency" light(It comes on high first, low with another push). My daily use lights are a Nitecore Tip and a Foursevens Smart Quark.
But! I'm not LE, and I'll be 52 tomorrow. So at this age, I use my daily lights on high a lot because everything seems to be getting a little darker each day.

44856

[AMC]

This was actually my practice when I worked Patrol. Usually 3 lights....all small lights. That was one of their advantages...you could carry more. For what it's worth, magz, I did carry a multi mode as one of my lights. It had a tail cap activation switch, and a separate up-front program switch. It was set on high (900 lumens) all the time, though I occasionally stepped it down for Administrative tasks. It was not the up-front draw-with-a-handgun light, which was single output momentary only switch. I was a firm believer in carrying multiple lights, having had the experience of searching the wooded areas of The Presidio Military Base at 2 am for shotgun armed robbery suspects....and having my one and only light die. A feeling of self hatred I didn't want to repeat.

[BillSWPA]

The point of CC is to be a gray man so I have to shake my head at the use of “tactical” lights for every day tasks.
. . .

Your phone has a light for basic tasks and homes have outlets for nightlights if you are that concerned with waking someone up.. Also, sneaking around a movie theater with a tactical light looks anything but normal. Some just take it way too far and miss the point.

Every time I have ever pulled out a "tactical" light for everyday tasks, everyone around me was simply happy I had a light.

[Blades]

Every time I have ever pulled out a "tactical" light for everyday tasks, everyone around me was simply happy I had a light.


It was the same while I was in the Air Force(discharged in 1997). I carried a xenon bulbed AAA Mini-Maglight. When the light was needed people were happy to see it and a few times those people went and bought one to carry. 10-15 lumens of light is better than none.

[vcdgrips]

Light, language (foreign), ammo and money-a world of difference between a little and none at all...particularly when you need one or more of the previously listed items.

[TGS]

This was actually my practice when I worked Patrol. Usually 3 lights....all small lights. That was one of their advantages...you could carry more. For what it's worth, magz, I did carry a multi mode as one of my lights. It had a tail cap activation switch, and a separate up-front program switch. It was set on high (900 lumens) all the time, though I occasionally stepped it down for Administrative tasks. It was not the up-front draw-with-a-handgun light, which was single output momentary only switch. I was a firm believer in carrying multiple lights, having had the experience of searching the wooded areas of The Presidio Military Base at 2 am for shotgun armed robbery suspects....and having my one and only light die. A feeling of self hatred I didn't want to repeat.

With respect to the thread title, what do you carry when not in a uniform? Everyday carry in street clothes?

[SoCalDep]

With respect to the thread title, what do you carry when not in a uniform? Everyday carry in street clothes?

With respect to the word “defensive” in the title, the fact that the OP has stated he works in law enforcement, and the fact that a single output light with a momentary only switch is most effective for fighting use, I wonder why people have tried to move this thread to EDC only? Is it that the initial argument has failed so we must change it to win rather than to facilitate discussion? The OP stated a challenge in effect as to the utility of a single mode light. That utility has been explained by experienced and knowledgeable individuals. The thread has either moved on or has devolved to the point of everyone trying to feel they are right or that they’ve “won”, and I’m done wasting my time with it. There are better parts of PF.

[TGS]

With respect to the word “defensive” in the title, the fact that the OP has stated he works in law enforcement, and the fact that a single output light with a momentary only switch is most effective for fighting use, I wonder why people have tried to move this thread to EDC only? Is it that the initial argument has failed so we must change it to win rather than to facilitate discussion? The OP stated a challenge in effect as to the utility of a single mode light. That utility has been explained by experienced and knowledgeable individuals. The thread has either moved on or has devolved to the point of everyone trying to feel they are right or that they’ve “won”, and I’m done wasting my time with it. There are better parts of PF.

Just askin' him a question, dude. It seems to me like a person isn't wearing 3 lights in plain clothes, so I'm curious what he's doing when not in a uniform.

I didn't realize that any argument I've made as "failed", either.

[Totem Polar]

Not a Michelobe Ultra guy but I might have used my phone to read a menu once or twice. I snap a pic of it then expand it so I can see.

OT, but, I have photos of the drink menus of a ton of local places saved in my phone. I can do a quick refresher look, then order like I’m their best regular ever when the wait staff show up.

- - -

I also carry two lights: the "look at/for stuff" light, and the "you can’t look at me" light. Lights are indeed (relatively) inexpensive, small, and easy to pocket about one’s person.

[secondstoryguy]

For a “defensive” or EDC light I carry a Streamlight ProTac-1L-1AA which will run on 123s or AA batteries. Sure, I wish it was a little brighter but it works. My experience with anything clipped to a pocket is it can catch on something and get lost pretty easily so I’d rather not drop $200 on a small flashlight. I have an LED Photon Freedom Micro squeeze light on my keychain that actually gets used a lot as my keys are generally clipped to my belt loop. My cell phone is also small utility light so I have that too.

The Modlite handheld is interesting. Ive been running a Surefire R1 Lawman for the last few years as a duty light but I’ve been looking for a smaller “jump out” light for my vest/belt. I generally run a smaller Streamllight on my vest as a backup but it’s really not bright enough to use as a primary patrol light. I’m probably gonna pick up one of the Modlites...

[Magsz]

What's the point of quoting someone and then not actually quoting that user so he would see your response?

It's becoming extremely obvious you aren't looking for knowledge, I don't know what you're looking for.

Oi vey.

Relax, I barely know how to multi quote on the computer, let alone on my phone. Sorry that I suck at the internet.

I'm still looking for exactly what I posted about in my first post. Use case scenarios. You and I are probably never going to see eye to eye on anything here as we are on two different planets apparently. I think that we should probably disengage. I do however have two more questions as I'm curious if you're willing to discuss.

Voodoo, what is your relationship with Modlight?

Would you be willing to forward the offense report/police report (whatever your agency calls it) from that particular situation that you referenced a few posts back? Unless of course its an open investigation.

[Magsz]

SoCalDep

There's no real need to differentiate unless we WANT to. I carry in an EDC capacity and I carry at work. My use of light tactics don't change but my equipment does because I'm not wearing the same uniform off duty (thank god). I think that a discussion in both realms is applicable to the original "challenge" as you call it.

[Gray222]

Oi vey.

Relax, I barely know how to multi quote on the computer, let alone on my phone. Sorry that I suck at the internet.

I'm still looking for exactly what I posted about in my first post. Use case scenarios. You and I are probably never going to see eye to eye on anything here as we are on two different planets apparently. I think that we should probably disengage. I do however have two more questions as I'm curious if you're willing to discuss.

Voodoo, what is your relationship with Modlight?

Would you be willing to forward the offense report/police report (whatever your agency calls it) from that particular situation that you referenced a few posts back? Unless of course its an open investigation.

Not agreeing on a topic does not mean we can't accept each other's stance on it. As I've already stated, I used to have the same opinions as you and then I learned through my experience.

Re: modlite - I pay for all my modlite products, some of them I have gotten a slight discount on, but any LEO can get discounts on their stuff. (And should)

This particular case is still being litigated so I cannot disclose any info beyond that which I have already.

[TQP]

I was reading this thread the other night at work, and realized that on my next call I might have 4 lights on me. Not counting the light on my phone, the light in the Motorola walkie mic, or the lanterns we have for each riding position.

I have:
A helmet light ( which is pretty much a TLR-1 with different mounting hardware).
A light on my fire coat. (Streamlight survivor)
A light on my walkie strap. (An angle head LED light from County Comm)
And a light in my pocket (Fenix PD35)

But then I'm a flashlight nerd. Way back in the mid 80s, in my basic EMT class, our instructor told a war story about looking for an EDP in a vacant house. It was daytime so he left the 3D maglight in the ambulance. It was pretty dark inside that house. I went home, took the AA Minimag off my dresser and put it in my pocket. I've been EDCing a light ever since.

Away from work, I have a streamlight solitaire for task lighting and a Quark QK-16L MKIII (https://darksucks.com/collections/foursevens/products/quark-qk16l-mkiii) set for max, one click for strobe if I want it.