View Full Version : Mexican cartel massacre: 9 Americans, including 6 children murdered
At least six children and three women living in a faith-based community of U.S. citizens in Mexico were shot to death Monday in the northern part of the country, and six more children were wounded and one missing after their convoy came under fire during a brazen daylight ambush believed to have been carried out by gunmen affiliated with the cartels.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-citizens-killed-kidnapped-in-cartel-shootout-outside-northern-mexican-mormon-community-family
Wayne Dobbs
11-05-2019, 09:53 AM
That's surely a terrible story, but the group targeted has a history themselves. They perpetrated a simultaneous quadruple murder event in different locales in TX about 30 years ago. Google Heber LeBaron on that deal.
There may be a backstory on this that's not apparent yet.
Trump seems eager to join a COIN war vs the cartels. I reckon that war would come to American streets in short order
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/trump-volunteers-u-s-army-to-wipe-out-mexican-drug-cartels-following-massacre-of-nine-americans/
Donald J. Trump
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A wonderful family and friends from Utah got caught between two vicious drug cartels, who were shooting at each other, with the result being many great American people killed, including young children, and some missing. If Mexico needs or requests help in cleaning out these.....
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....monsters, the United States stands ready, willing & able to get involved and do the job quickly and effectively. The great new President of Mexico has made this a big issue, but the cartels have become so large and powerful that you sometimes need an army to defeat an army!
5:25 AM - 5 Nov 2019
wvincent
11-05-2019, 10:18 AM
Trump seems eager to join a COIN war vs the cartels. I reckon that war would come to American streets in short order
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/trump-volunteers-u-s-army-to-wipe-out-mexican-drug-cartels-following-massacre-of-nine-americans/
Donald J. Trump
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A wonderful family and friends from Utah got caught between two vicious drug cartels, who were shooting at each other, with the result being many great American people killed, including young children, and some missing. If Mexico needs or requests help in cleaning out these.....
@realDonaldTrump
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....monsters, the United States stands ready, willing & able to get involved and do the job quickly and effectively. The great new President of Mexico has made this a big issue, but the cartels have become so large and powerful that you sometimes need an army to defeat an army!
5:25 AM - 5 Nov 2019
Oh, just FUCK NO!
This would be a nightmare.
Mexico needs to fix their shit, there is no doubt of that.
But Trumps also needs a big, steaming cup of STFU.
Oh, just FUCK NO!
This would be a nightmare.
Mexico needs to fix their shit, there is no doubt of that.
But Trumps also needs a big, steaming cup of STFU.
I guess the Mexican President quickly said "Thanks but no thanks". Which is exactly what a Mexican President WOULD say. ;)
It is an insurgency and does need a COIN, I'll grant them that.
GardoneVT
11-05-2019, 10:29 AM
That's surely a terrible story, but the group targeted has a history themselves. They perpetrated a simultaneous quadruple murder event in different locales in TX about 30 years ago. Google Heber LeBaron on that deal.
There may be a backstory on this that's not apparent yet.
I’d imagine they’re not camped out in rural Mexico for the nightlife.
wvincent
11-05-2019, 10:39 AM
I guess the Mexican President quickly said "Thanks but no thanks". Which is exactly what a Mexican President WOULD say. ;)
It is an insurgency and does need a COIN, I'll grant them that.
Sadly, i'm sure Trump will keep pressing the issue.
Probably be part of the new trade deal.
I better see Don Jr., Ivanka, and Eric as the first boots on the ground across the border. We can name it "Operation Tragic Mistake", also known as "How I lost the 2020 election in 2019 and destroyed my own County in the process"
That's surely a terrible story, but the group targeted has a history themselves. They perpetrated a simultaneous quadruple murder event in different locales in TX about 30 years ago. Google Heber LeBaron on that deal.
There may be a backstory on this that's not apparent yet.
This ^^^
The Mormon and Mennonite communities in Northern Mexico (particularly the Mennonites) do not exactly have clean hands when it comes to things like narco trafficking and money laundering.
It is not even clear at this time if this was a targeted attack or a case of mistaken identity.
Either way things like this are all too common in Mexico. The attention this is getting is largely an example of Missing White Woman Syndrome.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_white_woman_syndrome
Trump seems eager to join a COIN war vs the cartels. I reckon that war would come to American streets in short order
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/trump-volunteers-u-s-army-to-wipe-out-mexican-drug-cartels-following-massacre-of-nine-americans/
Donald J. Trump
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@realDonaldTrump
2h
2 hours ago
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A wonderful family and friends from Utah got caught between two vicious drug cartels, who were shooting at each other, with the result being many great American people killed, including young children, and some missing. If Mexico needs or requests help in cleaning out these.....
@realDonaldTrump
Follow
Follow @realDonaldTrump
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....monsters, the United States stands ready, willing & able to get involved and do the job quickly and effectively. The great new President of Mexico has made this a big issue, but the cartels have become so large and powerful that you sometimes need an army to defeat an army!
5:25 AM - 5 Nov 2019
None of these people are “from Utah.”
The Mormons in Northern Mexico are the defendants of Mormon fundamentalists who left Utah for Mexico to continue practice polygamy and other practices when the Mormon church made changes to facilitate Utah’s admission as a state.
Many of them intentionally have their kids born in the U.D. so they are still dual nationals.
I guess the Mexican President quickly said "Thanks but no thanks". Which is exactly what a Mexican President WOULD say. ;)
It is an insurgency and does need a COIN, I'll grant them that.
The Mexicans are understandably touchy about sovereignty. Any COIN effort would need to be covert and have a Mexican face.
At least six children and three women living in a faith-based community of U.S. citizens in Mexico were shot to death Monday in the northern part of the country, and six more children were wounded and one missing after their convoy came under fire during a brazen daylight ambush believed to have been carried out by gunmen affiliated with the cartels.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-citizens-killed-kidnapped-in-cartel-shootout-outside-northern-mexican-mormon-community-family
These people are the descendants of Mormons who moved to Mexico several generations back. They are Mexican citizens who maintain dual citizenship for convenience and because they have the means to do so much like the Mennonite communities in Northern Mexico.
Casual Friday
11-05-2019, 11:07 AM
Sadly, i'm sure Trump will keep pressing the issue.
Probably be part of the new trade deal.
I better see Don Jr., Ivanka, and Eric as the first boots on the ground across the border. We can name it "Operation Tragic Mistake", also known as "How I lost the 2020 election in 2019 and destroyed my own County in the process"
Yeah cause we all know that Sasha and Malia pulled a tour in Afghanistan and the Bush sisters were right there taking back Fallujah in 04.
The Mexicans are understandably touchy about sovereignty. Any COIN effort would need to be covert and have a Mexican face.
Understandably and definitely not something to be hashed out on Twitter.
Casual Friday
11-05-2019, 11:12 AM
There's a documentary on Amazon about the Mormons down there that paints them in a very positive light that is easily defeated with a google search.
That's not to make light of the fact that 6 kids, who were innocent in any current or past shady shit, got killed, but when the dust settles I'm willing to bet we'll find the group culpable to some extent.
farscott
11-05-2019, 11:19 AM
Understandably and definitely not something to be hashed out on Twitter.
Are you saying that nation states need more than 280 characters to resolve complex issues?
The fact that President Trump cannot stay away from Twitter is one of my biggest issues with his administration. Heck, even the SEC makes Elon Musk review some of his tweets. Meanwhile the man's whose medical exam is national news is tweeting without oversight on issues that make news.
blues
11-05-2019, 11:21 AM
There's no way to attach a happy face to this story regardless of who's doing what, where.
Those responsible for the slaughter deserve nothing less than to reap terrible vengeance at the hands of the Mexican police / military or other duly sanctioned op (with or without our participation).
Chance
11-05-2019, 11:25 AM
I recall Ed Calderon discussing Mormon communities in Mexico when Joe Rogan interviewed him. If I remember correctly, Ed described them as being autonomous, well-armed, and not people to screw with. So I guess that's in line with what Wayne and HCM have described.
Casual Friday
11-05-2019, 11:31 AM
I recall Ed Calderon discussing Mormon communities in Mexico when Joe Rogan interviewed him. If I remember correctly, Ed described them as being autonomous, well-armed, and not people to screw with. So I guess that's in line with what Wayne and HCM have described.
The documentary on Amazon they were very reluctant to talk about weapons other than Fudd guns like 12 gauge shot guns and deer rifles that they legally possess. There was a small part of them at a shooting range.
wvincent
11-05-2019, 11:34 AM
Yeah cause we all know that Sasha and Malia pulled a tour in Afghanistan and the Bush sisters were right there taking back Fallujah in 04.
Yeah, your right about that.
The stakes for us getting volunteered to sort out Mexico's shit is just too damn high for casual postings on Twitter.
Maybe my years of getting "voluntold" have left me just a bit jaded about the whole committing troops to other peoples problems.
TiroFijo
11-05-2019, 11:35 AM
There's no way to attach a happy face to this story regardless of who's doing what, where.
Those responsible for the slaughter deserve nothing less than to reap terrible vengeance at the hands of the Mexican police / military or other duly sanctioned op (with or without our participation).
I agree with you.
But for them, it wil be just business as usual. Gruesome vengance is part of their daily life, they expect no different from foes and are prepared for that. In the worst case someone else will take up the same position and return to "normal".
I'm sure there are some US COIN elements working with Mexico authorities. How much they can really do in these circunstances is anyone's guess.
GardoneVT
11-05-2019, 12:01 PM
The documentary on Amazon they were very reluctant to talk about weapons other than Fudd guns like 12 gauge shot guns and deer rifles that they legally possess. There was a small part of them at a shooting range.
Understandably so.If a camera crew showed up at my home,I wouldn't broadcast my whole collection either.
Yeah, your right about that.
The stakes for us getting volunteered to sort out Mexico's shit is just too damn high for casual postings on Twitter.
Maybe my years of getting "voluntold" have left me just a bit jaded about the whole committing troops to other peoples problems.
I dont need a security clearance to safely assume theres already anti-cartel groups in Mexico,both indiginous & from Up North. Trump is simply marketing to his Mormon political constituency.
okie john
11-05-2019, 12:02 PM
Trump seems eager to join a COIN war vs the cartels. I reckon that war would come to American streets in short order
This.
Plenty of Mexican cartel troops are already here, they're armed, and they don't mind killing. Fortunately, they've stuck to fratricide, but that could change within hours of Black Jack Pershing's resurrection.
Okie John
Borderland
11-05-2019, 12:22 PM
Not so far fetched.
https://www.amazon.com/Line-Valley-Chris-Hernandez-ebook/dp/B00HW1MA2G#customerReviews
Something to think about anyway.;)
I used to live in Douglas. Been down into Sonora and Chihuahua a few times. It will open your eyes to the war down there.
Won't see anything like that here in the US.
Casual Friday
11-05-2019, 12:32 PM
Yeah, your right about that.
The stakes for us getting volunteered to sort out Mexico's shit is just too damn high for casual postings on Twitter.
Maybe my years of getting "voluntold" have left me just a bit jaded about the whole committing troops to other peoples problems.
Nothing in my post suggested we get involved, just pointing out the ridiculousness of "tRuMpS kIdS bEtTeR bE fIrSt oN tHe gRoUnD".
blues
11-05-2019, 12:35 PM
I agree with you.
But for them, it wil be just business as usual. Gruesome vengance is part of their daily life, they expect no different from foes and are prepared for that. In the worst case someone else will take up the same position and return to "normal".
I'm sure there are some US COIN elements working with Mexico authorities. How much they can really do in these circunstances is anyone's guess.
We're willing to engage ISIS and other threats in the Middle East and around the world. This threat is not only closer to home, it's in our home, and arguably an equal or greater threat depending on how you frame the situation.
In any case, it's just another portion of the maelstrom sucking our country down.
A bunch of people slaughtered in Mexico? Yawn...must be a Tuesday. Or a Monday, or any day ending in y.
Casual Friday
11-05-2019, 01:07 PM
All I know is Sicario 3 is gonna be lit af fam.
Casual Friday
11-05-2019, 01:14 PM
We're willing to engage ISIS and other threats in the Middle East and around the world. This threat is not only closer to home, it's in our home, and arguably an equal or greater threat depending on how you frame the situation.
In any case, it's just another portion of the maelstrom sucking our country down.
I've asked that very question here and so far "well it's different" is all I've got for an answer.
I don't fear ISIS in my daily life, but people being arrested on a daily basis in my slow paced corner of the world with cartel and MM ties is something I worry about.
I recognize this is a no win situation for us to some degree, and I'm not a fan of sending more troops to die in battle, but I have to believe that at some point we will have to get involved in Mexico and I'm not sure this incident will be the reason.
I've asked that very question here and so far "well it's different" is all I've got for an answer.
I don't fear ISIS in my daily life, but people being arrested on a daily basis in my slow paced corner of the world with cartel and MM ties is something I worry about.
I recognize this is a no win situation for us to some degree, and I'm not a fan of sending more troops to die in battle, but I have to believe that at some point we will have to get involved in Mexico and I'm not sure this incident will be the reason.
The Mexican mafia is a prison gang, they hire out to the cartels for work in the US but compared to the Mexican drug cartel’s they are small potatoes
randyho
11-05-2019, 01:26 PM
It's Vice, so there are things in it consistent with that. But this did provide some background to which I was unaware.
https://youtu.be/LpIyaIHsJbc
willie
11-05-2019, 01:29 PM
Just a few more drops of blood to taint the dope we smoke and coke we snort.
Dagga Boy
11-05-2019, 01:34 PM
Just add to well over 30,000 murders a year in a place with the progressive dream gun laws and in a place they want to be here. Forget us going to Mexico it is all coming here. The only thing keeping more of this from happening here is that we can’t control what comes in....we can shut the border down for money going out should the beheadings, public hangings and other public violence become commonplace in the US, and particularly in Texas.
Drang
11-05-2019, 02:12 PM
Biggest issue with us getting involved is corruption. Restrict it to training Mexican Marines here, maybe. All sources I'm familiar with say they're about the only trustworthy element of the government down there.
Biggest issue with us getting involved is corruption. Restrict it to training Mexican Marines here, maybe. All sources I'm familiar with say they're about the only trustworthy element of the government down there.
The main issue is that if we get involved it will be an affront to Mexican fried insolvency and you will be fighting everybody, not just just the cartels. All this talk about overt US military intervention in Mexico is simply ignorant.
We already conduct training for carefully screened Mexican military and law-enforcement here in the United States.
Erick Gelhaus
11-05-2019, 02:56 PM
These people are the descendants of Mormons who moved to Mexico several generations back. They are Mexican citizens who maintain dual citizenship for convenience and because they have the means to do so much like the Mennonite communities in Northern Mexico.
HCM - I appreciate the experience, knowledge, and perspective you bring to threads like these and, well, one or two others as well.
The main issue is that if we get involved it will be an affront to Mexican fried insolvency and you will be fighting everybody, not just just the cartels. All this talk about overt US military intervention in Mexico is simply ignorant.
We already conduct training for carefully screened Mexican military and law-enforcement here in the United States.
* sovereignty
Caballoflaco
11-05-2019, 04:37 PM
The main issue is that if we get involved it will be an affront to Mexican fried insolvency and you will be fighting everybody, not just just the cartels. All this talk about overt US military intervention in Mexico is simply ignorant.
We already conduct training for carefully screened Mexican military and law-enforcement here in the United States.
In addition to a a strong national identity and patriotism, it’s not like the cartels haven’t been playing the COIN game for a long time too. There are plenty of places in Mexico where there wouldn’t be paved roads, schools or hospitals if it wasn’t for the cartels.
The Guzman’s have volunteered to pay “reperations” for the battle, which makes since in Culiacán is their hometown.
https://news.sky.com/story/mexico-admits-failure-as-eight-die-in-attempt-to-arrest-el-chapos-son-11839132
RevolverRob
11-05-2019, 04:44 PM
I sometimes wonder if we let Big Pharma just buy into this game, if they wouldn’t hire their own PMCs and beat the cartels at their own game...
Casual Friday
11-05-2019, 04:47 PM
The Mexican mafia is a prison gang, they hire out to the cartels for work in the US but compared to the Mexican drug cartel’s they are small potatoes
I understand the difference, but it's cartel activity nonetheless in an area where crime would otherwise be very low, and it's steadily getting worse.
When the news broke about Atomwaffen being here, half these slow mo retards around here panicked like the SS had invaded and we were balls deep in Panzers, Atomwaffen and other weekend white supremacists have been here and they are low hanging fruit that the feds and WA State used to make red flag seizures even more appealing to general public, but we have a real uptick in violent crime over the last few years and the majority of it is tied to the drug trade and people with known connections. No one wants to discuss that here though because most of WA is made up of bark eating SJW liberals who will call you a racist for pointing out the obvious and I can't wait to leave this shithole.
Casual Friday
11-05-2019, 04:47 PM
I sometimes wonder if we let Big Pharma just buy into this game, if they wouldn’t hire their own PMCs and beat the cartels at their own game...
That's Sicario 4, let's not get ahead of ourselves here.
Casual Friday
11-05-2019, 04:54 PM
In addition to a a strong national identity and patriotism, it’s not like the cartels haven’t been playing the COIN game for a long time too. There are plenty of places in Mexico where there wouldn’t be paved roads, schools or hospitals if it wasn’t for the cartels.
The Guzman’s have volunteered to pay “reperations” for the battle, which makes since in Culiacán is their hometown.
https://news.sky.com/story/mexico-admits-failure-as-eight-die-in-attempt-to-arrest-el-chapos-son-11839132
....and this is part of the problem according to people I know who have family in Mexico. Similar to how drug dealers in black communities often do toy handouts and turkey giveaways around the holidays, the cartels do enough "good" that a lot of people look to them as heroes. You take people who have literally almost nothing, with a govt who does nothing for them, and have someone come along and provide some basic necessities and it's not hard to see how their loyalty can be bought.
txdpd
11-05-2019, 05:31 PM
We're willing to engage ISIS and other threats in the Middle East and around the world. This threat is not only closer to home, it's in our home, and arguably an equal or greater threat depending on how you frame the situation.
In any case, it's just another portion of the maelstrom sucking our country down.
One of the three letter agencies, maybe DIA, used to publish an annual report on threats to the sovereignty of the United States. The short list was the collapse of the Mexican government and that was it. 300,000 military and police personnel (plus equipment), and 200,000 prisoners getting cut loose. Millions upon millions of refugees fleeing to the US. Mexican DTO, ie the cartels, were the threat to the stability of the Mexican Government. Kind of inconvenient for the Bush and Obama admins and it disappeared into obscurity.
The Mexican government has been on the brink collapse for decades. Regardless of who’s heading that government, we need them to hold it together. Our military would be brutally efficient against the cartels, it’d be foolish to think that the cartels would fight back or take the fight abroad, when they could just go all in on destabilizing the Mexican government.
Stephanie B
11-05-2019, 05:41 PM
That's surely a terrible story, but the group targeted has a history themselves. They perpetrated a simultaneous quadruple murder event in different locales in TX about 30 years ago. Google Heber LeBaron on that deal.
There may be a backstory on this that's not apparent yet.
My recollection is that the group in question first relocated to Mexico so they could do things that were prohibited in the U.S. They chose to move to a place where either the law was nonexistent or was fixable to overlook their activities.
I'm not saying that the women and children had it coming. But the adults in that community chose to live in a lawless area for their own reasons.
Drang
11-05-2019, 05:48 PM
The main issue is that if we get involved it will be an affront to Mexican sovereignty and you will be fighting everybody, not just just the cartels. All this talk about overt US military intervention in Mexico is simply ignorant.
We already conduct training for carefully screened Mexican military and law-enforcement here in the United States.
My assumption there was that the Mexican government requested our active participation, beyond training and possibly intel sharing.
I agree that such an event is highly unlikely.
I freely acknowledge that this is not my area of expertise.
blues
11-05-2019, 05:59 PM
One of the three letter agencies, maybe DIA, used to publish an annual report on threats to the sovereignty of the United States. The short list was the collapse of the Mexican government and that was it. 300,000 military and police personnel (plus equipment), and 200,000 prisoners getting cut loose. Millions upon millions of refugees fleeing to the US. Mexican DTO, ie the cartels, were the threat to the stability of the Mexican Government. Kind of inconvenient for the Bush and Obama admins and it disappeared into obscurity.
The Mexican government has been on the brink collapse for decades. Regardless of who’s heading that government, we need them to hold it together. Our military would be brutally efficient against the cartels, it’d be foolish to think that the cartels would fight back or take the fight abroad, when they could just go all in on destabilizing the Mexican government.
I've written on this topic recently...the destabilization or fall of the Mexican government and potential consequences...none good.
No doubt that none of the entities could realistically pose an existential threat to our fighting men and women in combat...but even absent a direct armed conflict we suffer the effects of erosion from within and without...like grist in a mill.
I no longer have access to the info I once had so I'm reluctant to say much on the topic...but imho, things do not bode well, and it will require some clear heads and good leadership to prepare for and address the growing problem.
Layman here... what does COIN stand for?
11B10
11-05-2019, 06:02 PM
HCM - I appreciate the experience, knowledge, and perspective you bring to threads like these and, well, one or two others as well.
This ^^^^^!!
randyho
11-05-2019, 06:03 PM
Layman here... what does COIN stand for?
COunter INsurgency. It's a rough game.
Borderland
11-05-2019, 06:06 PM
Did I miss something?
As bad as this was these people were Mexican citizens living in MX.
Lots of Americans live in Baja and Sonora. An American can even buy and sell property in MX.
I used to fish near La Paz and talked to several Americans that lived there most of the year in houses that they had purchased.
Living in MX is a choice. In the back country the police patrol with M4's and wear civilian clothes. It's damn hard to tell a cartel member from a cop.
I suppose the cartel members know who the cops are so no need for a uniform. You just stand out in crowd. ;)
I believe the MX gov't puts up with the cartels as long as the money keeps going to the right individuals.
11B10
11-05-2019, 06:16 PM
Layman here... what does COIN stand for?
Counter insurgency, I do believe.
Inkwell 41
11-05-2019, 06:42 PM
I no longer have access to the info I once had so I'm reluctant to say much on the topic...but imho, things do not bode well, and it will require some clear heads and good leadership to prepare for and address the growing problem.
So, what you're saying is, we're screwed.
blues
11-05-2019, 06:56 PM
So, what you're saying is, we're screwed.
No, I won't say that. I'll never admit defeat while I draw breath. I'm saying we have some tough roads to travel one way or another. And tough choices to be made.
COunter INsurgency. It's a rough game.
Thanks
My assumption there was that the Mexican government requested our active participation, beyond training and possibly intel sharing.
I agree that such an event is highly unlikely.
I freely acknowledge that this is not my area of expertise.
If they ever did that it would never be overt. Requesting overt military intervention by the U.S. would be political suicide for any Mexican administration.
GardoneVT
11-05-2019, 08:01 PM
....and have someone come along and provide some basic necessities and it's not hard to see how their loyalty can be bought.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s “bought”. People gotta eat, and if there’s no lawful way to make a living people will feed their kids though unlawful ways. When the only way to earn a viable living is dealing with the cartels , it’s survival- not bribery.
Which cuts to the core of the problem. Americans pump billions of dollars into illegal narcotics, and are in no mood to stop anytime soon. Unless we are collectively open to the idea of Amazon and WalMart openly selling heroin (which I’m not), this revenue is going to a drug trafficking group of some sort. It does not matter which country the product comes from; with that level of demand it’s gonna come from somewhere.
Solving an economic problem with military force is up there in the “Book of Stupid Ideas, Volume I”.
Drang
11-05-2019, 08:10 PM
Edit: I might add that I believe this discussion was sparked by Trump tweeting -- what else? -- a message that basically invited the president of Mexico to invite us in.
If they ever did that it would never be overt. Requesting overt military intervention by the U.S. would be political suicide for any Mexican administration.
Agreed.
And at the risk of taking the discussion further down a non-productive rabbit hole, only a Democratic administration could get away with it on this side of the border.
Borderland
11-05-2019, 08:21 PM
Let me see if I have this correct.
Trump is on his 5th DHS director......and he just solved the cartel problem by saying we need to use US troops in Mexico.
He truly is a genius. :(
Let me see if I have this correct.
Trump is on his 5th DHS director......and he just solved the cartel problem by saying we need to use US troops in Mexico.
He truly is a genius. :(
Trump uses acting directors in many roles to maintain the type of control he is used to in the private sector.
One has no bearing on the other.
As Wayne Dobson alluded to, the LeBaron clan, the Mormon extended family of the victims has a very sordid and bloody history.
Along those lines the story just go a little weirder.
https://nypost.com/2019/11/05/women-killed-in-mexican-cartel-murders-had-alleged-ties-to-sex-cult-nxivm/?fbclid=IwAR2vwrdNXnOZQpeu8zhOcEqouXmON8n3lkZTyePU OR44JlozHHWh9f2yZWo
Women killed in Mexican cartel murders had alleged ties to sex cult Nxivm
The nine women and children slaughtered in Mexico on Monday were part of a Mormon community with ties to the alleged sex-cult Nxivm.
The outpost Mormon community in Mexico is where underlings of Nxivm leader Keith Raniere recruited young women to work as nannies in an upstate New York compound run by the accused cult — suggesting at least in part that the jobs would get the girls away from their home region’s drug violence, according a man hired by Raniere to produce a documentary about the group.
The filmmaker working with Raniere at the time, Mark Vicente, told the online magazine Slate that the documentary ultimately became a recruiting video for Nxivm, which purported to be a self-help group but morphed into what the feds called a cult that sexually, physically and emotionally abused its mainly female followers.
The film included an interview with Julian LeBaron, who identified himself as the cousin of one of the moms killed Monday and who is a leader of the Mexico Mormon community. LeBaron’s brother was kidnapped by a local drug cartel in 2009, and the family defiantly refused to pay a ransom. The cartel eventually released the abducted man.
Borderland
11-05-2019, 08:41 PM
Edit: I might add that I believe this discussion was sparked by Trump tweeting -- what else? -- a message that basically invited the president of Mexico to invite us in.
Agreed.
And at the risk of taking the discussion further down a non-productive rabbit hole, only a Democratic administration could get away with it on this side of the border.
The last time that happened was in 1916 and Mexico didn't like it much even then. It almost started a war with Mexico.
Cypher
11-05-2019, 08:56 PM
That's Sicario 4, let's not get ahead of ourselves here.
Didn't they just do a Rambo movie about this
Borderland
11-05-2019, 09:10 PM
Trump uses acting directors in many roles to maintain the type of control he is used to in the private sector.
One has no bearing on the other.
I guess I'm not quite following.
If you're running a very large corp, say 15 divisions, how is firing your division managers every 5 months productive?
What would be the point of even having managers if all you want them to do is agree with you?
Kanye Wyoming
11-05-2019, 09:20 PM
it will be an affront to Mexican fried insolvency
I pretty much like Mexican fried anything and this has induced a craving. I just got home and my frantic search for a Mexican restaurant nearby that serves this is not faring well. My wife is out of town so it's looking like PB&J.
Stephanie B
11-05-2019, 09:20 PM
Let me see if I have this correct.
Trump is on his 5th DHS director......and he just solved the cartel problem by saying we need to use US troops in Mexico.
He truly is a very stable genius. :(
FIFY.
Stephanie B
11-05-2019, 09:30 PM
The last time that happened was in 1916 and Mexico didn't like it much even then. It almost started a war with Mexico.
Not to mention the Veracruz landings in 1914. The Germans tried to take advantage, they tried to persuade Mexico to declare war. The Mexicans weren't that dumb.
Arbninftry
11-05-2019, 09:32 PM
COunter INsurgency. It's a LONG game.
FIFY
The border is as watertight as a net. No matter how it is served up, someone will have to eat a shit sandwich.
When I lived down in El Paso there was some areas that the pinche Weidos stayed away from. This is a whole new ball game if there is some retaliation.
Borderland
11-05-2019, 09:49 PM
Not to mention the Veracruz landings in 1914. The Germans tried to take advantage, they tried to persuade Mexico to declare war. The Mexicans weren't that dumb.
Neither were the Germans. Just about every rifle used by Villa's Army was a German Mauser.
The Mexicans didn't go to Germany to get them either.
Stephanie B
11-05-2019, 10:03 PM
Neither were the Germans. Just about every rifle used by Villa's Army was a German Mauser.
The Mexicans didn't go to Germany to get them either.
Weren’t the Mexicans making their own Mausers?
I guess I'm not quite following.
If you're running a very large corp, say 15 divisions, how is firing your division managers every 5 months productive?
What would be the point of even having managers if all you want them to do is agree with you?
No, you aren’t.
Permanent cabinet members and agency directors require confirmation by the Senate And can be difficult to remove even though they technically serve at the pleasure of the president.
Trump is gaming the system by rotating a series of yes-man or people he believes may be yes-man into the DHS Secretary position. Trump is getting exactly what he wants, front men to take the heat while Steven Miller pulls the strings on border and immigration issues from the Whitehouse.
I pretty much like Mexican fried anything and this has induced a craving. I just got home and my frantic search for a Mexican restaurant nearby that serves this is not faring well. My wife is out of town so it's looking like PB&J.
Predictive text, like rappers turned born again gospel singers is an abomination.
Weren’t the Mexicans making their own Mausers?
Yes, the Mexicans produced their own Mausers, in Mexico, under license begining in 1910.
Joe in PNG
11-05-2019, 10:35 PM
Weren’t the Mexicans making their own Mausers?
And wasn't Mauser selling rifles to pretty much everyone in the world at the time anyway?
And those who weren't buying Mausers from Germany were mostly making copies (hello Springfield!), or had their own arms industry.
EdSeyer211
11-05-2019, 10:46 PM
This news gave me goosebumps. They killed 6 children and nothing's right with that.
Borderland
11-05-2019, 10:52 PM
No, you aren’t.
Permanent cabinet members and agency directors require confirmation by the Senate And can be difficult to remove even though they technically serve at the pleasure of the president.
Trump is gaming the system by rotating a series of yes-man or people he believes may be yes-man into the DHS Secretary position. Trump is getting exactly what he wants, front men to take the heat while Steven Miller pulls the strings on border and immigration issues from the Whitehouse.
Got it.
GardoneVT
11-05-2019, 11:31 PM
I guess I'm not quite following
If you're running a very large corp, say 15 divisions, how is firing your division managers every 5 months productive?
What would be the point of even having managers if all you want them to do is agree with you?
Point 1: firing your staff keeps the current occupant in their place. Don’t rock the boat, or you’ll end up like the Last Guy.
Point 2: having managers/ employees as yes-men does two things. One is many managers don’t know or don’t care they’re being fed a fairy tale. They’re just fine with being told they’re the Greatest Leader Ever even if the buildings on fire and folks are running for the exits. Second, since running the org is secondary to their ego a pliable yes man isn’t a threat to their job. Again, better the org go down in flames then run the risk of an honest protege displacing your job.
If “Northern Mexico” means the Sierra Madre region that has been a rogue/outlaw area since the Aztecs were running the show down there.
RevolverRob
11-06-2019, 01:12 AM
Which cuts to the core of the problem. Americans pump billions of dollars into illegal narcotics, and are in no mood to stop anytime soon. Unless we are collectively open to the idea of Amazon and WalMart openly selling heroin (which I’m not), this revenue is going to a drug trafficking group of some sort. It does not matter which country the product comes from; with that level of demand it’s gonna come from somewhere.
Solving an economic problem with military force is up there in the “Book of Stupid Ideas, Volume I”.
I disagree.
Drug trafficking that comes from say...Burma is far less an issue to the U.S. than what is going on in Mexico. Crushing the Mexican Cartels and burning their fields may not win a lot of friends, but what it will do, is move the source and power to somewhere else. Hell, when the problem came from Colombia, it posed far less an existential threat to the U.S. the farther away the power is from our borders the more difficult it is for those who do the business to do it. The less likely they are to be able to effect destabilizing events here.
We’re not just discussing an economic issue. We’re also discussing what could become the largest refugee crisis ever. Which can tax an already over-taxed and under-supported immigration system to the breaking point.
There are very few things as important as making sure the Mexican Federal Government remains stable enough to maintain a legitimate threat to cartels. In the absence of that, we’re between rock and hard place. We either close our borders south, entirely. And turn away all refugees when Mexico collapses. Or we pour in the necessary military and civilian support to keep Mexico quasi-stable.
0ddl0t
11-06-2019, 04:27 AM
We either close our borders south, entirely. And turn away all refugees when Mexico collapses. Or we pour in the necessary military and civilian support to keep Mexico quasi-stable.
Option 3: We end drug prohibition and enact sensible immigration reform so Mexican organized crime no longer has an illicit cash cow and must transition into legit business.
TiroFijo
11-06-2019, 06:46 AM
The US citizens are the main consumers of mexican cartel's products (drugs, smuggling, and illegal labor) and the reason they are so wealthy and powerful; and on the other hand the US government is spending obscene amounts of money in the border wall, ICE, and war on drugs.
That's a double expense. And things are not improving.
farscott
11-06-2019, 06:51 AM
Option 3: We end drug prohibition and enact sensible immigration reform so Mexican organized crime no longer has an illicit cash cow and must transition into legit business.
I am not convinced that legalized drugs would stop the cartel for two reasons: 1) One of the goods controlled/impacted by the cartels using violence is avocado, and 2) large organizations with cash and weapons do not go quietly into the night when one cash cow disappears. They find more cash cows.
The cartels have proven to be willing to traffic more than just drugs, including moving agricultural goods and trafficking people.
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/02/02/582086654/mexicos-avocado-capital-says-it-s-kicked-cartels-off-the-farm
TiroFijo
11-06-2019, 06:58 AM
Stop consuming avocados and drugs, and don't hire illegal inmigrants... sounds easy.
Stephanie B
11-06-2019, 08:08 AM
The US citizens are the main consumers of mexican cartel's products (drugs, smuggling, and illegal labor) and the reason they are so wealthy and powerful; and on the other hand the US government is spending obscene amounts of money in the border wall, ICE, and war on drugs.
That's a double expense. And things are not improving.
It also gives two groups with an interest in the status quo.
Stephanie B
11-06-2019, 08:10 AM
Stop consuming avocados and drugs, and don't hire illegal inmigrants... sounds easy.
Align the sights and keep them aligned while gently increasing pressure on the trigger... sounds easy.
A suspect was arrested near the Arizona border with Mexico in connection with the deaths of nine U.S. citizens - six children and three women – Monday who were living in a Mormon community about 70 miles south of Douglas, Ariz., investigators said early Wednesday.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/suspect-arrested-in-mexican-cartel-massacre-that-claimed-9-american-lives-investigators
Borderland
11-06-2019, 09:24 AM
Stop consuming avocados and drugs, and don't hire illegal inmigrants... sounds easy.
Using immigrant labor (legal or not) goes back a long way in American culture. It's actually impossible now to deliver the meats and produce we consume every day at an affordable price without that labor.
It's a lot like the drug problem in a way because Americans also like to eat. If you want to pay 5 bucks for a head of lettuce we can stop using immigrant labor.
TiroFijo
11-06-2019, 09:33 AM
Using immigrant labor (legal or not) goes back a long way in American culture. It's actually impossible now to deliver the meats and produce we consume every day at an affordable price without that labor.
It's a lot like the drug problem in a way because Americans also like to eat. If you want to pay 5 bucks for a head of lettuce we can stop using immigrant labor.
I know that well... my comment was tongue-in-cheek.
Things are easier said than done.
Borderland
11-06-2019, 09:35 AM
I know that well... my comment was tongue-in-cheek.
Things are easier said than done.
As I suspected, just wasn't sure. ;)
txdpd
11-06-2019, 10:52 AM
don't hire illegal inmigrants
In the compendium of factors that influence cartel violence, there's a very strong inverse correlation between illegal border crossings and cartel violence. Correlation is not causation, and there's no single identifiable factor, blah blah.
With the recession in 2008, illegal border crossing slowed to a trickle and cartel violence skyrocketed, there are other factors. Currently, using border crossing apprehensions as an indicator of total illegal crossings, illegal crossings are down, and violence is through the roof.
Not many people question why the Mexican government is so intent on exporting it's productive workforce, a main ingredient in improving their economic situation. What's even worse than not having the workforce to improve their economy is having a glut of uneducated, unemployed military age males sitting around with little prospect in life. Our demand for cheap labor serves as a platform for a broad military strategy to reduce the cartel's recruiting pool. That's a system that benefited both sides of the border for a long time.
Trump has had a lot of success just letting federal law enforcement do their jobs and putting political pressure on Central American governments. Stemming the flow of immigration isn't the problem, it's that a system was developed long ago that became dependent on moving bodies to fight a war, and no new strategy was put in place.
TiroFijo
11-06-2019, 11:12 AM
Notice I said "illegal" inmigrants...
The inmigration/migrant worker issue is full of facets, with pros and cons. You surely know better than me.
The most frustrating thing for the squared engineer in me is the "illegal" part, in large numbers. In an ideal society all things should somewhere flow to "legal" by coercion into obedience of the existing laws or by change of them.
GardoneVT
11-06-2019, 12:12 PM
I disagree.
Drug trafficking that comes from say...Burma is far less an issue to the U.S. than what is going on in Mexico. Crushing the Mexican Cartels and burning their fields may not win a lot of friends, but what it will do, is move the source and power to somewhere else. Hell, when the problem came from Colombia, it posed far less an existential threat to the U.S. the farther away the power is from our borders the more difficult it is for those who do the business to do it..
Drugs don’t just come from Mexico. Unless you fix the demand and the billions of dollars behind it, some other nation will step in. Columbia , Venezuela, Panama, take your pick. Then there’s the prospect of domestic production right here in the US. Like most businesses it’s cheaper to make narcotics elsewhere then here, but if the cheaper alternative is wiped out by military operations...not so much.
Point is we can’t bomb and shoot our way to stability. Legalization isn’t a practical option either; that imposes hard to quantify social costs as well. Meth and opioids cause real harm to people and communities, but neutralizing the cartels means letting WalMart sell that shit over the counter. May as well just close down the country at that point.
So we are left with the status quo.
In the compendium of factors that influence cartel violence, there's a very strong inverse correlation between illegal border crossings and cartel violence. Correlation is not causation, and there's no single identifiable factor, blah blah.
With the recession in 2008, illegal border crossing slowed to a trickle and cartel violence skyrocketed, there are other factors. Currently, using border crossing apprehensions as an indicator of total illegal crossings, illegal crossings are down, and violence is through the roof.
Not many people question why the Mexican government is so intent on exporting it's productive workforce, a main ingredient in improving their economic situation. What's even worse than not having the workforce to improve their economy is having a glut of uneducated, unemployed military age males sitting around with little prospect in life. Our demand for cheap labor serves as a platform for a broad military strategy to reduce the cartel's recruiting pool. That's a system that benefited both sides of the border for a long time.
Trump has had a lot of success just letting federal law enforcement do their jobs and putting political pressure on Central American governments. Stemming the flow of immigration isn't the problem, it's that a system was developed long ago that became dependent on moving bodies to fight a war, and no new strategy was put in place.
That is an interesting theory but people have been heading for opportunities in El Norte since at least World War II.
It does bring up another point though. We talk about the cartels as “drug cartels” But that is only one part of their business. Their real business is smuggling routes. They control the route and anything that travels on those routes north or south gets “taxed” Drugs, people, guns, money, avocados, whatever.
When illegal border crossings are up there is plenty of money for everyone because illegal immigrants or just another commodity for the cartels to move. We see criminal groups on this side of the border hitting each others stash houses and kidnapping immigrants to ransom them back to their families. They are literally a commodity to these people.
The Narcos and other Mormons are not the only ones involved in violent clashes with the LeBaron clan. They are also involved in a long running and violent clash with neighboring ranchers and farmers over water rates.
https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Ranchers-Clash-for-Water-in-Northern-Mexico-20180502-0016.html?fbclid=IwAR3HdnhsR8OW_W1gY2xtEWIt0W8F0-NtxtNUApyXNmtYIJGaXePuQjw2KnY
TheNewbie
11-07-2019, 12:42 AM
I was in Mexico in the early part of the year, in Mexico City. I saw a convoy of Mexican Marines.
To their credit, they looked professional, competent and like a legit force. Their weapon handling also looked good, and they practiced good trigger finger discipline.
The Mexicans have the people to fight the war, but the problem is much deeper. You could eliminate the cartels tomorrow, and in a few years they would be back. I love Mexico, but there is a culture of corruption there, and until that is fixed, I don't believe you will have any long term solutions.
MickAK
11-07-2019, 01:56 AM
Ok, I keep seeing this posted in regards to this issue and I feel obligated to comment.
Avocados and cocaine have very different profit margins. They are not remotely equivalent in regards to this issue. Neither is human trafficking, or any other business cartels are involved in. The existence of the cartels is based on the extreme profits to be had in the narcotics trade. Any other opinion is fanciful and not based in fact.
runcible
11-07-2019, 09:08 AM
There are some extremely strong opinions expressed here, obverse to those espoused by some who work in fields that are professionally mindful of this whole rigamarole; and that seems interesting.
Maple Syrup Actual
11-07-2019, 11:41 AM
....and this is part of the problem according to people I know who have family in Mexico. Similar to how drug dealers in black communities often do toy handouts and turkey giveaways around the holidays, the cartels do enough "good" that a lot of people look to them as heroes. You take people who have literally almost nothing, with a govt who does nothing for them, and have someone come along and provide some basic necessities and it's not hard to see how their loyalty can be bought.
Not sure if this idea is even interesting to anyone but the question this thread puts me in mind of is this: what is difference between a cartel and a legitimate government?
If there are regions where the cartels are, essentially, governing, and the people in those areas are loyal to the cartels more so than the state of Mexico I wonder what the difference actually is - obviously one can't discern a state actor based on benevolence, since there are plenty of governments which butcher their citizens. Canada itself was originally more a system of organization for resource extraction than anything else so having a state based on a particular industry doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.
The legitimacy of a government seems to stem from its ability to project force more than anything else so I think in the areas where the cartels have unchallenged supremacy of force, thinking of them less as a criminal organization and more as a rogue state makes quite a bit of sense. Interestingly as they shift from organized crime rings to governing bodies invested in the infrastructure of an area (even if only for parasitical reasons) they actually may make a "war on drugs" more feasible than it ever used to be.
I mean really, if we actually wanted to get rid of the cartels, the big project would be building up the nation-state of Mexico. Granted I'm not super thrilled about the West's track record on nation-building and we have a lot of recent, frustrating experience with it so I'm not saying it's a good idea. It's just interesting that the elements of winning the war on drugs would actually probably align quite well with the elements of winning an actual war, and I think this is only true because the growth of the cartels has turned them into the kind of entity that we could conceivably target, destroy, and replace on an institutional level.
It also makes me think about the unnerving parallels between a parasitical criminal organization, and a parasitical governing body - and governance is necessarily parasitical, given its primary source of funding. Essentially, unless the government is willing to constrain itself to the rule of law, and willing to suffer the division of powers such that the laws cannot be easily altered or prosecutions cannot easily be politically influenced, then I don't know that there is a fundamental difference between them.
Thankfully neither Canada nor the US has seen any political interference in prosecution or legislation so no point in us all going and checking on the contents of our safes and stockpiles or anything.
Totem Polar
11-07-2019, 11:54 AM
Not sure if this idea is even interesting to anyone but the question this thread puts me in mind of is this: what is difference between a cartel and a legitimate government?
If there are regions where the cartels are, essentially, governing, and the people in those areas are loyal to the cartels more so than the state of Mexico I wonder what the difference actually is - obviously one can't discern a state actor based on benevolence, since there are plenty of governments which butcher their citizens. Canada itself was originally more a system of organization for resource extraction than anything else so having a state based on a particular industry doesn't seem like too much of a stretch.
Yup, and the US was founded on resource trafficking as well; Massachusetts bay, Plymouth, Jamestown, etc. were business companies long before they ever became townships, states or blue-leaning progressive hellholes. Total resource extraction bolstered by private, non-governmental force projection.
Thankfully neither Canada nor the US has seen any political interference in prosecution or legislation so no point in us all going and checking on the contents of our safes and stockpiles or anything.
FTW, the whole post. Of the number of things to like about you, thinking about a given topic from a long ways outside the box is right up there.
GardoneVT
11-07-2019, 12:03 PM
Not sure if this idea is even interesting to anyone but the question this thread puts me in mind of is this: what is difference between a cartel and a legitimate government?
.
I was gonna post a long statement about government structure & legitimacy, but here’s a better way to put it. Disagree with the US government and you have options to be heard. You can vote, you can protest, you can counter legislation by contacting reps and even run for office yourself .
Disagree with the local Cartel and you’ll be savagely killed...after your family and pets are tortured to death in ways that would make an ISIL enforcer puke up his meal.
OlongJohnson
11-07-2019, 12:10 PM
As our favorite hater of all people equally pointed out, there are governments recognized as legitimate and official by the UN that rule in much the same manner as the cartels.
Totem Polar
11-07-2019, 12:16 PM
I was gonna post a long statement about government structure & legitimacy, but here’s a better way to put it. Disagree with the US government and you have options to be heard. You can vote, you can protest, you can counter legislation by contacting reps and even run for office yourself .
Disagree with the local Cartel and you’ll be savagely killed...after your family and pets are tortured to death in ways that would make an ISIL enforcer puke up his meal.
You just identified the difference between the American gov’t (and a number of similar western nations) and cartels. That metric isn’t so successful when applied to other legitimate nation states. Disagree with the Saudis as a reporter, and see how far apart the govt and cartels are.
Chance
11-07-2019, 02:49 PM
Not sure if this idea is even interesting to anyone but the question this thread puts me in mind of is this: what is difference between a cartel and a legitimate government?
That was a topic discussed at length in Kidnap: Inside the Random Business (https://www.amazon.com/Kidnap-Inside-Business-Anja-Shortland/dp/0198815476/ref=sr_1_1?crid=28GQCL8SRXC7D&keywords=kidnap+inside+the+ransom+business&qid=1573155852&sprefix=kidnap+inside+the%2Caps%2C188&sr=8-1), which explored it from an economics perspective. The short version: whoever can apply superior force usually assumes the role of government for a myriad of reasons I'm not qualified to explain.
Ok, I keep seeing this posted in regards to this issue and I feel obligated to comment.
Avocados and cocaine have very different profit margins. They are not remotely equivalent in regards to this issue. Neither is human trafficking, or any other business cartels are involved in. The existence of the cartels is based on the extreme profits to be had in the narcotics trade. Any other opinion is fanciful and not based in fact.
Avocados are a protection racket for the cartels So it is all profit.
As for human trafficking, you are misinformed. It is extremely profitable. In many cases human trafficking is actually more profitable than narcotics. Gadfly Can chime in here. I mean we might just be 14-year-old girls posting on the Internet from our mom’s basement or maybe we both spent 20+ years dealing with border issues and transnational organize crime groups.
Like most things in Mexico the cartels are extensions of old money long-standing family businesses.They have been in the smuggling business for over 100 years.The commodity may change but the business stays the same. Today’s cartels are the great great grandchildren of the liquor Smugglers who are shooting it out with Charles Askins and the border patrol in the 1920s during prohibition. Prior to Prohibition it was cattle and weapons.
I was in Mexico in the early part of the year, in Mexico City. I saw a convoy of Mexican Marines.
To their credit, they looked professional, competent and like a legit force. Their weapon handling also looked good, and they practiced good trigger finger discipline.
The Mexicans have the people to fight the war, but the problem is much deeper. You could eliminate the cartels tomorrow, and in a few years they would be back. I love Mexico, but there is a culture of corruption there, and until that is fixed, I don't believe you will have any long term solutions.
This right here.One factor is at the Mexican Marines are a professional force versus the army which is a conscript force with a professional officer an NCO cadre.
People make the mistake of thinking that Mexico is a poor country and that they are not competent or efficient when they wish to be. Mexico is usually somewhere around the 15th highest GDP in the world, often equal to or greater than Australia. It’s not a poor country but it has a lot of poor people with little to lose.
You are spot on about the entrenched culture of corruption. The culture of corruption and the un-egalitarian nature of Mexican society both contribute. Go back 100 150 years and you will hear tales of Mexican bandits that the government can’t control, even with the Rurales Conducting summary executions. The cartels are just a modern version of the same phenomenon.
https://kutv.com/news/local/armed-man-arrested-in-connection-to-deadly-attack-on-us-family-in-mexico
Armed man arrested not connected to deadly attack on US family in Mexico, prosecutors say
OlongJohnson
11-07-2019, 03:16 PM
The short version: whoever can apply superior force usually assumes the role of government for a myriad of reasons I'm not qualified to explain.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
blues
11-07-2019, 04:16 PM
Might makes right.
The victors write history.
NickA
11-07-2019, 10:15 PM
Might makes right.
The victors write history."History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."- Winston Churchill [emoji41]
Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
TheNewbie
11-07-2019, 10:19 PM
I've read some of the news stories, but how often does the Mexican military cross the southern border?
I will be back in Mexico sometime next year, and I look forward to talking to residents (friends of the wife) about the issues.
Casual Friday
11-08-2019, 10:06 AM
Last year when I was in Southern CA, I noticed that in some areas you couldn't walk more than a 100 feet without running into a Hispanic person, often women, selling fruit for cheap. Mostly Mango and Pineapple. My wife's relative that we were visiting told me that it was Cartel fruit. He said they smuggle drugs into the country in fruit shipments, then they put people on the street to sell the fruit. Nothing goes to waste that can be profited from.
NEPAKevin
11-08-2019, 06:05 PM
... My wife's relative that we were visiting told me that it was Cartel fruit. He said they smuggle drugs into the country in fruit shipments, then they put people on the street to sell the fruit. Nothing goes to waste that can be profited from.
Back in the 90's, we had a semi-trailer that the State Police had impounded in our yard. The thing was full of what they referred to as "clays" but looked to me like the chimineas that were all the rage back then. Supposedly, some of the "clays" were full of dope and the rest were to be sold as yuppie fire pits. Different times, same concept.
I've read some of the news stories, but how often does the Mexican military cross the southern border?
I will be back in Mexico sometime next year, and I look forward to talking to residents (friends of the wife) about the issues.
2-3 times in my current Stations AOR in the last couple years...”on accident”. I’ve seen a Mexican Military Helo land on our side when I was in TX. It doesn’t happen too often but it’s not an unusual or surprising occurrence.
Drang
11-08-2019, 08:39 PM
Going back to us getting involved in a land war in Asia counter insurgency operations in Mexico...
I'm not actually too concerned about us invading, 'cuz that ain't happenin', nor the Mexican government inviting us to help, ditto.
I'm concerned about things getting bad enough that we have no choice but to intervene.
It seems that conditions in parts of Mexico are approaching "failed state" status. Mogadishu on our doorstep is not something we could ignore for long.
Drang
11-08-2019, 09:44 PM
Going back to us getting involved in a land war in Asia counter insurgency operations in Mexico...
I'm not actually too concerned about us invading, 'cuz that ain't happenin', nor the Mexican government inviting us to help, ditto.
I'm concerned about things getting bad enough that we have no choice but to intervene.
It seems that conditions in parts of Mexico are approaching "failed state" status. Mogadishu on our doorstep is not something we could ignore for long.
(Must have hit "edit" right at the 60 minute mark...)
And what really worries me is if some alleged peace-loving globalist gets in the Oval Office and decides to intervene, with no clear goals and absurd and/or contradictory rules of engagement.
I'm picturing something that makes LBJ directing air strikes look like strategic genius.
Nightvisionary
11-09-2019, 01:27 AM
I've read some of the news stories, but how often does the Mexican military cross the southern border?
I will be back in Mexico sometime next year, and I look forward to talking to residents (friends of the wife) about the issues.
From my experience working on the issue, routinely. Many times escorting cartel drug shipments across the border. There was one area south of Arivaca AZ that was a reported no go zone for border patrol for a time because of this. In early 2018 we received information that a mex military unit was possibly occupying a hilltop on the US side in this area. A small group of us approached the hill and confirmed it was occupied and found a water and resupply drop at the bottom. I saw them watching us through binoculars but could not determine if they were cartel spotters or mex military. Early the next morning we went up the hill and they withdrew back across the border. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it's not happening.
TheNewbie
11-09-2019, 01:46 AM
From my experience working on the issue, routinely. Many times escorting cartel drug shipments across the border. There was one area south of Arivaca AZ that was a reported no go zone for border patrol for a time because of this. In early 2018 we received information that a mex military unit was possibly occupying a hilltop on the US side in this area. A small group of us approached the hill and confirmed it was occupied and found a water and resupply drop at the bottom. I saw them watching us through binoculars but could not determine if they were cartel spotters or mex military. Early the next morning we went up the hill and they withdrew back across the border. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it's not happening.
Are these areas on public or private land?
Duelist
11-09-2019, 10:22 AM
Are these areas on public or private land?
I don’t think it matters very much. Fences get crossed or cut all over the place, and the ownership/control of pieces of land is a confusing patchwork quilt. The border crossers don’t seem to care much one way or the other, but have assassinated landowners who caused too much trouble for them.
Nightvisionary
11-09-2019, 10:42 AM
Are these areas on public or private land?
Coronado National Forest, Tumacacori Highlands/Pajarito Wilderness area.
0ddl0t
11-09-2019, 08:08 PM
There are some extremely strong opinions expressed here, obverse to those espoused by some who work in fields that are professionally mindful of this whole rigamarole; and that seems interesting.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair
Without getting in to TTPs...actions are observed, calls to relevant .Gov personnel on both sides of the border are made, various assets are put into place and into play as necessary. Most times no direct confrontation is made and the “lost” S side personnel magically turns around and goes home.
As far as knowing where the actual International Border physically is? Yes, we have a pretty good idea...there are various barriers and official monuments placed at intervals. GPS can be spotty in some areas as well as cell and handheld radio signal so I suppose if you’re not familiar with the area an incursion of a couple hundred yards could be a mistake but is unlikely for people who’s job it is to patrol those areas...very unlikely.
Stephanie B
11-10-2019, 09:28 AM
A bunch of them are giving up being able to practice polygamy in exchange for not being shot dead en masse.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-violence-sects/mexico-massacre-unites-mormon-sects-even-their-exiles-idUSKBN1XK0BD
They’re complaining about there being no law & order in Mexico after deliberately settling in a place with no/little law.
Nightvisionary
11-10-2019, 10:08 AM
A bunch of them are giving up being able to practice polygamy in exchange for not being shot dead en masse.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-violence-sects/mexico-massacre-unites-mormon-sects-even-their-exiles-idUSKBN1XK0BD
They’re complaining about there being no law & order in Mexico after deliberately settling in a place with no/little law.
So you support drug cartels murdering children then? Would you say the same thing about people who live in Chicago?
blues
11-10-2019, 10:18 AM
So you support drug cartels murdering children then? Would you say the same thing about people who live in Chicago?
Certainly you don't believe that to be the case and serves no purpose to make such a leap when you know it to be untrue.
Borderland
11-10-2019, 10:30 AM
I’m having a hard time understanding how you read that from the thread splinter you quoted. BP definitely knows where the border is. The question I commented on was about whether these border incursions were on public or private lands. My comment merely states my personal opinion that it doesn’t really matter.
None of that has anything to say about BP knowing where the US/Mexico border is.
Sorry, it wasn't clear to me who you were referring to when you said border crossers. I was assuming you were including the MX military in that group. Been known to happen. That would then require the BP to know exactly where the MX military was to know if they had actually crossed the border.
As to the matter of public or private property it does matter. Crossers are apprehended many miles from the border. If it's more than 25 the BP has to have consent or a warrant to go onto private property. Do they 100% of the time, I don't know. In that case your scenario may become a trespass issue no matter who does it.
Nightvisionary
11-10-2019, 10:30 AM
Certainly you don't believe that to be the case and serves no purpose to make such a leap when you know it to be untrue.
That's the obvious conclusion I drew from that post. There are all sorts of people that wish death upon people of religious faiths so it does not surprise me to see someone who describes themself as a "Pinko" would hold that view. Her argument basically was "Since they knew it was a high crime area they should have expected their children to be murdered in a hail of cartel automatic weapon fire". Why are you playing white knight?
Borderland
11-10-2019, 10:38 AM
A bunch of them are giving up being able to practice polygamy in exchange for not being shot dead en masse.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-violence-sects/mexico-massacre-unites-mormon-sects-even-their-exiles-idUSKBN1XK0BD
They’re complaining about there being no law & order in Mexico after deliberately settling in a place with no/little law.
That's how I see it.
One would have to travel in Chihuahua or Sonora MX to understand the situation on the ground.
I don't know what it is currently but I know what it was 10 years ago and from what I read it's a lot worse now.
rcbusmc24
11-10-2019, 10:55 AM
Disregard.... too much snark being launched at people who think they are helping.....
blues
11-10-2019, 11:00 AM
That's the obvious conclusion I drew from that post. There are all sorts of people that wish death upon people of religious faiths so it does not surprise me to see someone who describes themself as a "Pinko" would hold that view. Her argument basically was "Since they knew it was a high crime area they should have expected their children to be murdered in a hail of cartel automatic weapon fire". Why are you playing white knight?
I've read enough of her posts over the years to know that she is not one to condone the slaughter of innocents. (Especially since innocents in her own extended family have suffered that fate at the hands of other oppressors.)
I might as well ask why are you making statements simply for the purpose of getting a reaction?
Stephanie may not be entirely (what would some would consider) mainstream in some of her thoughts and lifestyle but she is far from a "pinko" or subversive. If that isn't clear then one isn't paying attention, imho.
You're right though, she doesn't require my protection or coming to her defense. Nor would she ask it.
Borderland
11-10-2019, 11:02 AM
That's the obvious conclusion I drew from that post. There are all sorts of people that wish death upon people of religious faiths so it does not surprise me to see someone who describes themself as a "Pinko" would hold that view. Her argument basically was "Since they knew it was a high crime area they should have expected their children to be murdered in a hail of cartel automatic weapon fire". Why are you playing white knight?
I don't think he is.
The homicide rate in MX is 5 times that of the US.
That means, to me anyway, that one is 5 times more likely to be murdered in MX than the US.
I think the rate may be a lot higher than that in Sonora or Chihuahua.
Jesus, go down there into the interior for a few months and tell me if you want to live there. It's like the wild west only with M4's.
I'll guarantee you that a white gringo would be a target PDQ.
GardoneVT
11-10-2019, 11:06 AM
So you support drug cartels murdering children then? Would you say the same thing about people who live in Chicago?
Chicago is not remotely comparable to northern Mexico.
BehindBlueI's
11-10-2019, 11:24 AM
They’re complaining about there being no law & order in Mexico after deliberately settling in a place with no/little law.
Everybody wants anarchy until they get anarchy. Then suddenly a functioning government isn't such a burden after all.
coldcase1984
11-10-2019, 12:11 PM
Those babies butchered and burnt look like my 4-year-old grandson.
That,as well as having tailed cartel heroin traffickers around Nashville in the early 21st century, and more recently extraditing MS13 killers, makes me feel a bit sanguine in re: saving Western Civilization.
Put me in the Charles Askins bin: MOAB every cartel HQ. Then send Predators after survivors.
Lather, Rinse, Repeat and make that wall 10 stories tall.
God will know his own.
We don't need boots on the ground to end cockroaches.
Nightvisionary
11-10-2019, 12:20 PM
Everybody wants anarchy until they get anarchy. Then suddenly a functioning government isn't such a burden after all.
What is happening in Mexico isn't anarchy. Anarchy is the absence of authority. There is no lack of authority in Mexico. In many places it just isn't the systemically corrupt government providing it that authority.
Casual Friday
11-10-2019, 12:32 PM
A bunch of them are giving up being able to practice polygamy in exchange for not being shot dead en masse.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-mexico-violence-sects/mexico-massacre-unites-mormon-sects-even-their-exiles-idUSKBN1XK0BD
They’re complaining about there being no law & order in Mexico after deliberately settling in a place with no/little law.
Yeah but to be fair when their people settled in Mexico there wasn't the daily threat of being skinned alive and hung from an overpass because someone revved their motor in front of a Quinceañera, though it's a shame they just now figured out it may be time to move.
TheNewbie
11-10-2019, 12:39 PM
So you support drug cartels murdering children then? Would you say the same thing about people who live in Chicago?
Steph B and I probably agree on very little. I’ll even say she and I probably would be political opponents in almost every case.
However, there is nothing I’ve seem from her that would indicate this. It’s my opinion that your statement was unfair to her. I appreciate your posts , but we have to be careful about how we use language .
The left has made racsist , sexist, Nazi , etc meaningless slurs. We don’t want to make evil meaningless by over accusing or mislabeling people.
What is happening in Mexico isn't anarchy. Anarchy is the absence of authority. There is no lack of authority in Mexico. In many places it just isn't the systemically corrupt government providing it that authority.
Regardless the LeBaron clan fled the US a century ago specifically to be outside the reach of US law. Choices like that have consequences.
Not to mention they are not nice people, they are involved in illegal activity and multiple conflicts, not just with the cartels. They are not the innocent victims the media is making them out to be. Not by a long shot
Those babies butchered and burnt look like my 4-year-old grandson.
That,as well as having tailed cartel heroin traffickers around Nashville in the early 21st century, and more recently extraditing MS13 killers, makes me feel a bit sanguine in re: saving Western Civilization.
Put me in the Charles Askins bin: MOAB every cartel HQ. Then send Predators after survivors.
Lather, Rinse, Repeat and make that wall 10 stories tall.
God will know his own.
We don't need boots on the ground to end cockroaches.
So all the other kids killed butchered and burn in Mexico were OK but now we should be bombing Mexico because these particular kids happen to have blond hair and blue eyes like your grandkids?
This has been going on in Mexico for nearly 20 years. But now that some white kids with blond hair and blue eyes are the victims all of a sudden Americans are outraged?
As for the other part, bombing cartel headquarters? This shows incredible ignorance about how organizations like this function. There is no fixed headquarters to bomb. If it were that simple do you think we would be going into our 20th year of war in Afghanistan?
If you really want to do something about groups like this you need to be ready to do things that would make Charles Askins puke. Personally I don’t think America in the 21st-century has the stomach for that. And before you start it be aware that a war like that will continue long enough for your four-year-old grandson to grow up and serving in it.
coldcase1984
11-10-2019, 01:14 PM
Regardless the LeBaron clan fled the US a century ago specifically to be outside the reach of US law. Tracie is like that have consequences.
Not to mention they are not nice people, they are involved in illegal activity and involved in multiple conflicts, not just with the cartels. They are not the innocent victims the media is making them out to be. Not by a long shot
So you're saying nits make lice? Set those MOABs free!
Yeah but to be fair when their people settled in Mexico there wasn't the daily threat of being skinned alive and hung from an overpass because someone revved their motor in front of a Quinceañera, though it's a shame they just now figured out it may be time to move.
That is not true. When they settled in Mexico, it was still literally the wild west.The only difference is when they moved there it would have been bandits and or bands of Indians who would do the skinning alive. Not to mention they stayed there throughout the Mexican Revolution which was also a period of chaos and mass slaughter..
And once again the LeBaron clan are not innocent victims. They are involved in conflicts with the cartels, political forces, and even conflicts with neighboring farmers because the parents steal everyone’s water. If you don’t think stealing water is something a whole family would be murdered over you don’t understand farming and ranching in a desert environment.
So you're saying nits make lice? Set those MOABs free!
The LeBarons are players in the conflicts down there, not innocent victims. This exposes them to the same risks as the other players.
coldcase1984
11-10-2019, 01:39 PM
HCM; thanks to Ancestry.com, I know I'm 33 percent Iberian Peninsula! Tanned, swarthy & loving it!
Also got a Number of high-functioning American monogamous Mormon cousins.
Personally a failed Irish Catholic (38 percent) and ex-communicated Bourbon Street Church of Christ.
My Mormon First cousins were smart enough to not pick a life of service
Point is (2% Ancient Kazakstani!) I know who the bad guys are!
They need to be maggot farms forthwith...
Killing children is an atrocity no matter how much melanin your skin contains...
Borderland
11-10-2019, 01:45 PM
I find a lot of these emotional reactions to children being killed assumes that conditions in MX should be the same as they are here in the US.
People shouldn't be killing children anywhere but they do. How many children died in Syria as civilian non combatants?
But Syria is Syria and Mexico is Mexico, even if it's on our border. It's Mexico's problem and also your problem if you want to live there. SEAL team 6 ain't coming to save your ass.
Glenn E. Meyer
11-10-2019, 01:52 PM
Killing children is against, usually, an evolutionary predispositon. Setting children on fire is horrific. So, I read a book of stories by Nagasaki survivors. One was an eight year old girl. She was playing outside with her little friend on the base of a hill when the sirens went off. There was a shelter in the side of the hill. She ran in. Her friend lagged behind. The bomb went off such that the heat ray came down over the top and down the hill. The girl was in the tunnel. Her friend was outside. She saw her friend, turn transparent, saw her skeleton, burst into flame and then totally disappear.
This was done by the USA, we knew we would burn kids alive. Certainly, we did in the fire bomb raids such as Tokyo.
That is humanity.
coldcase1984
11-10-2019, 01:58 PM
I find a lot of these emotional reactions to children being killed assumes that conditions in MX should be the same as they are here in the US.
People shouldn't be killing children anywhere but they do. How many children died in Syria as civilian non combatants?
But Syria is Syria and Mexico is Mexico, even if it's on our border. It's Mexico's problem and also your problem if you want to live there. SEAL team 6 ain't coming to save your ass.
Don't need SEALs; need good Intel for USAF STRIKES.
We Are the Good Guys! You into moral relativism? I'll loan you a knife...
farscott
11-10-2019, 01:58 PM
Killing children is against, usually, an evolutionary predispositon. Setting children on fire is horrific. So, I read a book of stories by Nagasaki survivors. One was an eight year old girl. She was playing outside with her little friend on the base of a hill when the sirens went off. There was a shelter in the side of the hill. She ran in. Her friend lagged behind. The bomb went off such that the heat ray came down over the top and down the hill. The girl was in the tunnel. Her friend was outside. She saw her friend, turn transparent, saw her skeleton, burst into flame and then totally disappear.
This was done by the USA, we knew we would burn kids alive. Certainly, we did in the fire bomb raids such as Tokyo.
That is humanity.
Killing "our" children is bad; killing "their" children can be "collateral damage". "Us" and "them" are more than just words; making someone "them" justifies "non-human(e)" treatment.
Casual Friday
11-10-2019, 02:31 PM
That is not true. When they settled in Mexico, it was still literally the wild west.The only difference is when they moved there it would have been bandits and or bands of Indians who would do the skinning alive. Not to mention they stayed there throughout the Mexican Revolution which was also a period of chaos and mass slaughter..
I didn't say it was peaceful, but it certainly was different than it is now. Did the bandits and Indians have superior weaponry at their disposal, or were the Mormons capable of being similarly armed? The Cartels have Technicals and Ma Deuces, the LeBaron's don't, probably.
And once again the LeBaron clan are not innocent victims. They are involved in conflicts with the cartels, political forces, and even conflicts with neighboring farmers because the parents steal everyone’s water. If you don’t think stealing water is something a whole family would be murdered over you don’t understand farming and ranching in a desert environment.
I've never claimed they were innocent, in fact early on in the thread I mentioned otherwise.
Drang
11-10-2019, 02:33 PM
Killing children is against, usually, an evolutionary predispositon. Setting children on fire is horrific. So, I read a book of stories by Nagasaki survivors. One was an eight year old girl. She was playing outside with her little friend on the base of a hill when the sirens went off. There was a shelter in the side of the hill. She ran in. Her friend lagged behind. The bomb went off such that the heat ray came down over the top and down the hill. The girl was in the tunnel. Her friend was outside. She saw her friend, turn transparent, saw her skeleton, burst into flame and then totally disappear.
This was done by the USA, we knew we would burn kids alive. Certainly, we did in the fire bomb raids such as Tokyo.
That is humanity.
And my High School Physics teacher was a PW in a camp outside Nagasaki, pretty sure that he and his fellow "guests of the Emperor" would be calling out your false equivalency here.
Among other things, did the narcos drop leaflets telling people to GTFO before they turn the city to ash?
HCM; thanks to Ancestry.com, I know I'm 33 percent Iberian Peninsula! Tanned, swarthy & loving it!
Also got a Number of high-functioning American monogamous Mormon cousins.
Personally a failed Irish Catholic (38 percent) and ex-communicated Bourbon Street Church of Christ.
My Mormon First cousins were smart enough to not pick a life of service
Point is (2% Ancient Kazakstani!) I know who the bad guys are!
They need to be maggot farms forthwith...
Killing children is an atrocity no matter how much melanin your skin contains...
For the record I am white, and not exactly mistaken for a leftist, but I have spent 20 plus years working on the border or border related issues to include time in MX. I have a fair appreciation for Mexico and Mexican culture, the good and the bad. In other words my outlook on these matters is much more Skeeter Skelton than Charles Askins.
As such I have seen atrocities like this many times over the years but no one gave a damn. Then, all of a sudden the same thing happens with different victims and and all the “old white gun guys” (now my demographic) are calling for blood and it pisses me off.
The completely false media narrative making the LeBarons out to be lost American tourists from Utah is aggravating as well. I’m sure that during your LE career you witnessed or participated in some event and then read news reports that bore no resemblance to what actually happened. That is very much what is going on here.
The Mexican security forces can be quite capable when they want to be and are allowed to be. If it was as simple ad dropping a bomb they could do it themselves. The other factor is it’s not 1916 anymore. The fish rots from the head and there's no way the official powers that be in Mexico City would stand for any overt U.S. Military action on their soil. It would political suicide.
Baldanders
11-10-2019, 02:41 PM
It's Vice, so there are things in it consistent with that. But this did provide some background to which I was unaware.
https://youtu.be/LpIyaIHsJbc
Lots of interesting background. Evidently you can drink liquor and swear and be a "Mormon?" I am confused about what FLDS/LDS practices these guys are keeping, if any. I can't imagine they are "in communion" with the mainstream LDS church.
Best part of the video is the bit where the "community activist" totally admits they bring in guns into the colonies and says they have told the Federales to come get 'em if you want 'em. I don't blame them a bit.
Borderland
11-10-2019, 02:44 PM
Don't need SEALs; need good Intel for USAF STRIKES.
We Are the Good Guys! You into moral relativism? I'll loan you a knife...
You aren't going to get the US military involved no matter how appealing to you that may be. These were civilians. Just because they happened to be American citizens doesn't change that. Obama even targeted US civilians with drone attacks when it was established that they also happened to be Taliban operating with the Taliban.
I already have a knife, but thanks for the offer.
I didn't say it was peaceful, but it certainly was different than it is now. Did the bandits and Indians have superior weaponry at their disposal, or were the Mormons capable of being similarly armed? The Cartels have Technicals and Ma Deuces, the LeBaron's don't, probably.
I've never claimed they were innocent, in fact early on in the thread I mentioned otherwise.
Re: what the LeBarons have or don’t have- don’t believe everything you see on Vice News.
How do you think the LeBarons have the money and political clout to get away with what they do ? They are players in Mexico’s “Narco Game of Thrones.” They just play more on the dirty money / political corruption side.
Rival Narcos are not the only enemies of the LeBarons. They have had many violent / shots fired conflicts with neighboring farmers and ranches over water rights aka the LeBarons stealing their neighbors water. Another issues is disputes between the LeBarons and other former Mormons in the area.
Baldanders
11-10-2019, 02:48 PM
COunter INsurgency. It's a rough game.
A game where we aways forget rule #1: "Are you playing this game in a venue without overwhelming local public support? You have already lost. Proceed to the 'how long does it take to withdraw' section of the rules."
Casual Friday
11-10-2019, 02:48 PM
Re: what the LeBarons have or don’t have- don’t believe everything you see on Vice News.
How do you think the LeBarons have the money and political clout to get away with what they do ? They are players in Mexico’s “Narco Game of Thrones.” They just play more on the dirty money / political corruption side.
Rival Narcos are not the only enemies of the LeBarons. They have had many violent / shots fired conflicts with neighboring farmers and ranches over water rights aka the LeBarons stealing their neighbors water. Another issues is disputes between the LeBarons and other former Mormons in the area.
That's why I said probably, and I don't watch Vice. I understand they're dirty.
Lots of interesting background. Evidently you can drink liquor and swear and be a "Mormon?" I am confused about what FLDS/LDS practices these guys are keeping, if any. I can't imagine they are "in communion" with the mainstream LDS church.
Best part of the video is the bit where the "community activist" totally admits they bring in guns into the colonies and says they have told the Federales to come get 'em if you want 'em. I don't blame them a bit.
It’s Vice News so it’s 80% bullshit starting with the claim that 90% of illegal guns in Mexico come from the U.S..
A fair number of guns and a bigger percentage of ammo come from the U.S. but 90% is a false figure. At one point 90% of the guns Mexico asked ATF to trace came from the U.S. but they only asked ATF to trace guns they already suspected came from the U.S. which was 20% (or less) of the total number of guns seized.
The LeBarons are not acknowledged / part of the LDS Church and haven’t been for a century. They are fundamentalist “Mormonish” cult similar to the one run by Warren Jeffs.
blues
11-10-2019, 02:54 PM
As such I have seen atrocities like this many times over the years but no one gave a damn. Then, all of a sudden the same thing happens with different victims and and all the “old white gun guys” (now my demographic) are calling for blood and it pisses me off.
H, I agree with your entire post but for the part I quote above. Maybe it's simply because I've always cared and now I'm one of the "old white (gun) guys".
I just think it's too broad a generalization even if I do take your meaning. (It may also be so because of former employment. Anyway...)
Glenn E. Meyer
11-10-2019, 02:56 PM
And my uncle was a pilot at Pearl Harbor when it was attacked. He was happy that the bombs were dropped as that meant he wouldn't have to fly over the invasion of Japan. He was scheduled be one of the glider pilots that were going to be towed in.
At dinner, years later, he said that he thought we should have waited for the second bomb. Thus, your false equivalency is BS. Burning children alive for your benefit, drug cartel, winning a war - is morally suspect. It can only be excused and/or justified for a goal. You can determine that your goal is justified. Others might not.
So your false equivalency is just posturing BS, as I said earlier. We do horrors for our benefit, true believers think they are always moral. Deeper thinkers understand that we do horrors and they are not noble. But we have our motives.
So the 8 year old was to blame as she didn't read a flyer. Great intellectual argument. The Mormons chose to live in a dangerous area for their own benefit.
H, I agree with your entire post but for the part I quote above. Maybe it's simply because I've always cared and now I'm one of the "old white (gun) guys".
I just think it's too broad a generalization even if I do take your meaning. (It may also be so because of former employment. Anyway...)
No group is a monolith but there is a core of a Jeff Cooper wannabe’s posting about “nuking Mexico” on the Gunsite Facebook page that I am ashamed to be associated with them.
You know, these guys...
44657
Baldanders
11-10-2019, 03:04 PM
Everybody wants anarchy until they get anarchy. Then suddenly a functioning government isn't such a burden after all.
I recommend Niven's "Cloak of Anarchy" to anyone who believes otherwise. A "genius" shuts down the robot cops at a "free park," so everyone can have "real freedom." Yes, it is exactly the story you think it is. So 100% predictable that it boggles the mind that the point needs to be made. (At least if you are LE or have the brains to understand why LE is necessary.)
Or hell, "Coventry" by Heinlein, the same "freedom" at it's logical conclusion: tyranny.
Baldanders
11-10-2019, 03:11 PM
Re: what the LeBarons have or don’t have- don’t believe everything you see on Vice News.
How do you think the LeBarons have the money and political clout to get away with what they do ? They are players in Mexico’s “Narco Game of Thrones.” They just play more on the dirty money / political corruption side.
Rival Narcos are not the only enemies of the LeBarons. They have had many violent / shots fired conflicts with neighboring farmers and ranches over water rights aka the LeBarons stealing their neighbors water. Another issues is disputes between the LeBarons and other former Mormons in the area.
The fact that they were able to get one kidnapped member back sans ransom speaks volumes.
Also the fact the that the cartels sent tokens of respect after they shot a federal cop.
Baldanders
11-10-2019, 03:17 PM
It’s Vice News so it’s 80% bullshit starting with the claim that 90% of illegal guns in Mexico come from the U.S..
A fair number of guns and a bigger percentage of ammo come from the U.S. but 90% is a false figure. At one point 90% of the guns Mexico asked ATF to trace came from the U.S. but they only asked ATF to trace guns they already suspected came from the U.S. which was 20% (or less) of the total number of guns seized.
The LeBarons are not acknowledged / part of the LDS Church and haven’t been for a century. They are fundamentalist “Mormonish” cult similar to the one run by Warren Jeffs.
They are actively practicing pural marrage? Do they have the same problem with what to do with "excess males?" The drinking and casual swearing doesn't align with what I know about other FLDS groups in the US.
I find this sort of thing fascinating.
They are actively practicing pural marrage? Do they have the same problem with what to do with "excess males?" The drinking and casual swearing doesn't align with what I know about other FLDS groups in the US.
I find this sort of thing fascinating.
That may be where the blood atonement comes in. Declare them heretics who need to be killed to save their souls.
Baldanders
11-10-2019, 03:41 PM
When I hear "blood atonement" it makes me think of Al Qaeda, ISIS, the Taliban....
When I hear "blood atonement" it makes me think of Al Qaeda, ISIS, the Taliban....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement
Do a google search on “Ervil LeBaron” and “Church of the Lamb of God.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_First_Born_of_the_Lamb_of_God
Baldanders
11-10-2019, 03:59 PM
Option 3: We end drug prohibition and enact sensible immigration reform so Mexican organized crime no longer has an illicit cash cow and must transition into legit business.
BUT THAT WOULD WOULD MEAN ADMITTING WE PURE FUCKED UP FOR OVER A CENTURY!!
Doubling down on the same strategy we have used since the beginning of the 20th century has no such pain of cognitive dissonance.
Plus WE ARE THE GOOD GUYS! WE WOULD NEVER DO ANYTHING BAD, SO THE DRUG WAR MUST BE GOOD! I mean we have good intentions, no way that leads to ...wait a minute...
Baldanders
11-10-2019, 04:03 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_atonement
Do a google search on “Ervil LeBaron” and “Church of the Lamb of God.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_First_Born_of_the_Lamb_of_God
Oh, I went down that rabbit hole watching "Big Love," back years ago. I'm pretty aware of what it means to FDLS members. It still brings to mind the aforementioned groups.
A more succinct stab at what I was trying to express: all this shit scares the piss out of me.
Stephanie B
11-10-2019, 04:32 PM
So you support drug cartels murdering children then? Would you say the same thing about people who live in Chicago?
Do I really have to say "of course not" to point one?
To your second point, most people that I have known who grew up in bad areas were there because of economics. Their parents didn't choose to live in slumland because of its accessibility to drugs, roaches, rats and street crime.
However, the history of the Mormons has been a desire to live some place where they could be a law unto themselves. What is now Salt Lake City was Mexican territory when Brigham Young set out to move there with his followers. The people who went to Mexico in the latter half of the 1800s went there for the same reason: To live in a place where the law did not reach them. My impression was that polygamy was always frowned upon in Mexican law, but the Mormons knew that Mexican law was almost nonexistent and, what law there was, could be bent with an appropriate gratuity.
There have been plenty of stories how the Mexican Mormons got along with the then-local cartel. But things seem to have changed and they changed the way things seem to change in Mexico where there is a turf/boundary dispute between the cartels (or any other criminal gang anywhere else). The cartels are a bit less discriminating about who gets killed than, for example, were the Five Families of NYC.
Stephanie B
11-10-2019, 06:39 PM
The Mexican security forces can be quite capable when they want to be and are allowed to be. If it was as simple ad dropping a bomb they could do it themselves. The other factor is it’s not 1916 anymore. The fish rots from the head and there's no way the official powers that be in Mexico City would stand for any overt U.S. Military action on their soil. It would political suicide.
I have a suspicion that if we were to invade Mexico, we'd change Mexican public opinion behind every group that took up arms to resist.
Totem Polar
11-10-2019, 06:49 PM
Totally off the table. Best we can do is keep the invasion from heading this direction. JMO.
Borderland
11-10-2019, 06:54 PM
I don't have anything against Mormons. I'm not a religious person and believe that people need to be able to practice whatever religion they want.
Mormons haven't always been exactly the most law abiding group however. They seem to have been fairly militant in the 1800's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre
I don't have anything against Mormons. I'm not a religious person and believe that people need to be able to practice whatever religion they want.
Mormons haven't always been exactly the most law abiding group however. They seem to have been fairly militant in the 1800's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_Massacre
To be clear the LeBaron / Warren Jeffs cults are not recognized by the LDS church. They are to Mormons as the Branch Davidians were to the main stream seventh Day Adventist Church.
TheNewbie
11-10-2019, 08:00 PM
And my uncle was a pilot at Pearl Harbor when it was attacked. He was happy that the bombs were dropped as that meant he wouldn't have to fly over the invasion of Japan. He was scheduled be one of the glider pilots that were going to be towed in.
At dinner, years later, he said that he thought we should have waited for the second bomb. Thus, your false equivalency is BS. Burning children alive for your benefit, drug cartel, winning a war - is morally suspect. It can only be excused and/or justified for a goal. You can determine that your goal is justified. Others might not.
So your false equivalency is just posturing BS, as I said earlier. We do horrors for our benefit, true believers think they are always moral. Deeper thinkers understand that we do horrors and they are not noble. But we have our motives.
So the 8 year old was to blame as she didn't read a flyer. Great intellectual argument. The Mormons chose to live in a dangerous area for their own benefit.
I bet those suffering under the Japanese would t agree with you either.
If your point is the US is willing to do harsh things that make a better world ok. If it’s somehow that we are morally equivalent to evil, then your post is vile and foolish.
fixer
11-10-2019, 08:27 PM
Nasty, grease-ball, Saudi Arabia level shit going down in Mexico.
Nothing new.
Don't see why we send in Marines or anything else to fix a giant pile of crap just because some dirty-ass Mormons got caught off guard.
OlongJohnson
11-10-2019, 08:38 PM
Lots of interesting background. Evidently you can drink liquor and swear and be a "Mormon?" I am confused about what FLDS/LDS practices these guys are keeping, if any. I can't imagine they are "in communion" with the mainstream LDS church.
Best part of the video is the bit where the "community activist" totally admits they bring in guns into the colonies and says they have told the Federales to come get 'em if you want 'em. I don't blame them a bit.
The thing that struck me is that was absolutely a Potemkin village tour. The visitors basically talked with one elder. No multiple interviews means no mismatched stories. They were shown what the elders wanted them to see. Those towns were shut down. Nobody coming or going, doing work, doing business. Kids playing games on a grassy field. No adults getting any work done anywhere. Everything sanitized before they got there.
Borderland
11-10-2019, 09:38 PM
The thing that struck me is that was absolutely a Potemkin village tour. The visitors basically talked with one elder. No multiple interviews means no mismatched stories. They were shown what the elders wanted them to see. Those towns were shut down. Nobody coming or going, doing work, doing business. Kids playing games on a grassy field. No adults getting any work done anywhere. Everything sanitized before they got there.
Yeah, quite a production, wasn't it. Even the Federales wanted to have a part in it.
Some of the Federales that I saw down there carrying M4's weren't wearing uniforms. They did ride around in the back of pick ups tho.
Mexican patrol vehicle (MPV).
Robinson
11-11-2019, 03:31 PM
And my uncle was a pilot at Pearl Harbor when it was attacked. He was happy that the bombs were dropped as that meant he wouldn't have to fly over the invasion of Japan. He was scheduled be one of the glider pilots that were going to be towed in.
At dinner, years later, he said that he thought we should have waited for the second bomb. Thus, your false equivalency is BS. Burning children alive for your benefit, drug cartel, winning a war - is morally suspect. It can only be excused and/or justified for a goal. You can determine that your goal is justified. Others might not.
So your false equivalency is just posturing BS, as I said earlier. We do horrors for our benefit, true believers think they are always moral. Deeper thinkers understand that we do horrors and they are not noble. But we have our motives.
So the 8 year old was to blame as she didn't read a flyer. Great intellectual argument. The Mormons chose to live in a dangerous area for their own benefit.
It is most certainly a false equivalency. Tell us what you think the motivation for bombing the shit out of Japanese cities was. Making money? Controlling trade? Just for fun? How many Japanese civilians would have been killed had we been forced to invade? What the hell?! They started that shit, we fought a long, difficult, bloody war in the Pacific to get to where we could bring the fight to the mainland, then we told them to surrender or else. They flipped us the bird. The Japanese government was responsible for the deaths of the people in those cities, not to mention the Americans (and others) who died in the fighting. They were responsible for ALL of it.
Borderland
11-11-2019, 11:08 PM
It is most certainly a false equivalency. Tell us what you think the motivation for bombing the shit out of Japanese cities was. Making money? Controlling trade? Just for fun? How many Japanese civilians would have been killed had we been forced to invade? What the hell?! They started that shit, we fought a long, difficult, bloody war in the Pacific to get to where we could bring the fight to the mainland, then we told them to surrender or else. They flipped us the bird. The Japanese government was responsible for the deaths of the people in those cities, not to mention the Americans (and others) who died in the fighting. They were responsible for ALL of it.
And lets not forget that, especially today, Veterans day.
Lex Luthier
11-11-2019, 11:24 PM
Total thread drift: my grandma's best friend (besides my dad, her son-in-law) was a Japanese woman named Kiyoko Kobayashi that Nana met in grad school at San Francisco State University in 1961.
Kiyoko was an adult survivor of Hiroshima- she would have been 23-24 years old then, and was married.
Kiyoko was *adamant* that dropping The Bomb both times was the right thing to do, given the circumstances. Having spoken to her directly about it as a young adult in the mid 1990s, I believe her.
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