Trigger finger placement vs Grip

[orionz06]

I have been having some issues since switching to a G17 on October. I will occasionally throw shots to the left, consistently but will have few issues WHO or SHO.

Diagnosis #1 from a trusted SME was not enough trigger finger. Focusing on more finger yielded positive results until it didn't. Adding more finger seems to be no longer working.

Diagnosis #2 from a trusted different SME was to use less finger and shift my hand on the frame. This sort of worked until it resulted in a very inconsistent master grip and creates a lot of space under the gun hand.

Personal diagnosis is to grip the hell outta the gun and it seems to work slightly better with the pad of the finger like I used with my M&P and my standard grip, basically throwing what two different guys told me.

Thoughts?

[JHC]

What connector are you using? If still a std 5.5 then try the dot. If already a dot, try the minus. Did you see Hilton Yam's new column about his like of the M&P? He discusses Glocks and says no way does the 5.5 provide a 5.5lb trigger. Instead he says they'll range 1-3 lbs heavier . . . and he's talking about Gen 3.

http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/04/glock-vs-m-why-i-shoot-m.html

Almost everybody who does any really fancy shooting with a Glock has done some connector changing. Kyle Defoor, TigerSwan staff, TLG one would have to say, etc.

I use the crease of the 1st joint and I grip pretty hard. But I the energy of the grip primarily into the strong hand index finger and thumb - choking the grip up high. As though it was a G26. I got this tip off GT years ago and it finally helped "consistently suppress" (it always lurks in remission) the pushed left phenom. I presume by keeping the ring and esp the pinkie from interferring.

[JHC]

Also, a former Ranger, former LEO and now private security contractor friend just mentioned a tip he got from the AMU down at Benning. Rather than squeezing the grip like we do a baseball bat, they said they work to press straight back into the palm like in a lever motion. Fingers levering back into the palm. He demo'd. Made sense in explaining how to press grip straight back. Can't find better words than that at the moment.

[GJM]

Assuming your finger is properly positioned, so you are not contacting the frame as you manipulate the trigger, I associate pushing shots left (RH shooter) with insufficient support hand grip pressure?

[jstyer]

I'm not sure a lighter trigger is the answer... I find that the more rolly the trigger (as in rolling break style) the less likely I am to throw shots left. The dot connector seems to have the most roll in it out of the OEM glock connectors that I've tried and is considerably more rolly than the minus connector I sampled. With a rolling break style trigger it helps me to have a bit more finger on the trigger than say my M&P with Apex or a 1911. The other advantage of using a little more finger on the glock is that I find myself engaging the trigger safety with much more consistency. When I try and and use the tip of my finger like on my other platforms I'm much more likely to miss the trigger safety and be pulling on an immovable object. This happens even more often if I'm rushing.

To practice breaking a rolling trigger without pulling shots left I try and ignore the fact that there is a wall in the trigger pull. I try and focus strictly on more pressure, more pressure, more pressure, and more extension, more extension, more extension... until it seems like the shot just breaks the moment my arms hit full extension. Thus trying to sync in my muscle memory pressure vs. extension. Instead of trigger travel distance vs. extension. The better you get at smoothly continuing to add pressure through the wall, as opposed to against the wall the more you'll see your shots centering up.

I just read through this post... And I'm not sure I made any sense. :confused: But these things have helped me with the glock trigger to the point that I already shoot it considerably better in 1000 rounds than my M&P with 2500. As always, YMMV!

[orionz06]

Assuming your finger is properly positioned, so you are not contacting the frame as you manipulate the trigger, I associate pushing shots left (RH shooter) with insufficient support hand grip pressure?

This seemed to be more consistent solution tried, combined with the pad placement that gave me zero issues with on the M&P.

I will spend some time in the AM tomorrow and give it a shot with a clear brain.


Re connectors: While one connector over the other may be more preferable to shoot I believe that I should be able to shoot any stock Glock configuration at the rate of fire I am having issues with and not have any concerns. Sure a rolling break might be better if I am doing a pressout and a lighter pull might be better as well but I don't believe the out of the box configuration to be incredibly limiting or the source of my issues. I will save gear exploration for a point when this issue is resolved.

[jstyer]

From what I understand, in almost all the relatively recently manufactured glocks the dot connector IS the stock connector.

[JHC]

And why you don't (OP) see this exhibited SHO and WHO? Unless it's just that those are so much harder that they focus the mind better and those presses are done more carefully.

[Al T.]

Thoughts from Paul Gomez:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qahYMhDQtOA

[JHC]

From what I understand, in almost all the relatively recently manufactured glocks the dot connector IS the stock connector.

I got a standard 5.5 in my FDE Gen 3 G17. Gen 4's all got the dot.

[David S.]

Grip pressure vs. Finger placement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNVYu3koF4o

[Failure2Stop]

I am on a bone stock Gen 4 G17 right now.
I get the most consistent accuracy and accuracy at speed by:
Hooking the trigger finger around the trigger, with the face of the trigger just shy of or right on the first joint.
When pulling the trigger I lead with the fingertip, dragging the rest of the trigger finger and trigger with it. Traditionally I would press the trigger (on SA/DA guns, 1911s, ARs) in a straight path to the rear with the part of the finger that was in direct contact with the trigger. Even if I dig the trigger finger into the trigger guard, but lead the press from the joint I do not achieve the same performance. It took me a while to get accustomed to pulling the trigger like that, and it is a little counterintuitive.

My buddy dropped a Rocket trigger into his G19 a while ago, and I have to shoot it completely differently than I shoot the stock trigger for the same level of performance at 25 and 50 yards. (I really dislike that trigger, BTW)

[LOKNLOD]

I am reading on my phone so forgive me if I've misunderstood, but you're having this issue shooting freestyle with both hands, but it is not an issue when shooting SHO, or even WHO?

Is it possible you're doing something funky with your weak hand grip, causing the pulled shots? If it were purely a trigger issue I would think that removing the support of the weak hand would cause it to be magnified. Could you be anticipating the recoil with your weak hand grip strength, tightening the grip to try and man handle the gun, resulting in yoinks to the left?

I have experienced some of that effect in the past. Two handed, shots left, but Other Weak Hand Only and I'm centered back up. Improving my grip interaction between my hands (somewhat due to changing my thumbs slightly for the P30 release, also breaking the wrist further) has helped, as well as improving my weak hand strength so it's not "over achieving" to try to help control recoil.

[rsa-otc]

What is it about the Glock that this seems to be a consistant issue for some folks? I have personally seen 4 cases of this in the last 2 years. On two of the pistols the sights were pushed so far to the right they were almost off the frame. As with Orionz all 4 people never encountered this before until they bought or were issued a Glock, their pervious guns ran the gamete of XDs, M&Ps, Sigs etc. There seems to be something in the Glock trigger/frame configurations that leads to this tendicy. I got to work with the last 2 and working with their finger placement seemed to do the trick almost immediately. That was short term I will have to wait and see what the long term brings. Could it be that by changing the finger placement the shooter is concentrating on the basics of trigger press more, and then once they get confortable with the new placement they start to slack off and begin doing what they were doing before to cause shots to land left? I don't spend enough time teaching Glock shooters to have a concrete answer.

[rob_s]

I started on Glocks, went to 1911s, and have been back on Glocks for the last several years.

The reason it is pronounced, for me, with the Glock is because the 1911 masked my bad habits and every time I pulled the trigger on the 1911 and got away with it that cemented that bad habit just a little bit more.

If I thought shooting an M&P, or an XM, or whatever, would fix the issue I'd happily change but I'm not going to blame the hardware for a problem that's entirely my fault.

[Steve S.]

If you hold the gun in your hands loosely, take a sight picture, then tighten your grip, does the front sight cant to the left?

I'm no professional, but this may help.

With the strong hand, grip the glock like you would one of those stress balls or hand strengthening spring things. Squeeze the fingers and ball of the hand on the frontstrap and backstrap of the gun.

With your weak hand and the meat of your strong hand, push inwards. Picture doing a Pec Fly at the gym, but with your hands. It's important to remember to use that same pressure with the support thumb, pressing it against the frame. I find it helps make the pistol more stable when moving the trigger finger from the ejection port to the trigger.

I know it's not the most popular opinion, but I think grip can be directly related to trigger discipline as far as accuracy goes - especially under speed. That's been my experience at least.

[Chris Rhines]

Hooking the trigger finger around the trigger, with the face of the trigger just shy of or right on the first joint.
When pulling the trigger I lead with the fingertip, dragging the rest of the trigger finger and trigger with it. This is exactly what I have to do with a Glock - I think of it as 'pulling the left side of the trigger.' It seems counterintuitive, but I get much less sight movement this way.

-C

[rjohnson4405]

Changing my grip is the thing that has worked for me.

Initially changing how much trigger finger I used fixed it, but it didn't stay that way for long.

It's all about my weak hand grip. I believe it was TCinVA who said something to the effect of use the right hand to shoot the gun and the left hand to hold it/control recoil.

I hold the right hand tight enough to limit sympathetic "squeezing" (I estimate a firm handshake) when I move my trigger finger and with my left hand I grip as tight as I can without shaking.

[Sparks2112]

I too have to place the joint of my trigger finger on the face of the trigger to get consistent results. This is only with glocks. All platforms have their quirks I guess.

[orionz06]

My buddy dropped a Rocket trigger into his G19 a while ago, and I have to shoot it completely differently than I shoot the stock trigger for the same level of performance at 25 and 50 yards. (I really dislike that trigger, BTW)

I have found that to be true for me as well using a Zevtech trigger, ~2#.

[Ben Stoeger]

I have been having some issues since switching to a G17 on October. I will occasionally throw shots to the left, consistently but will have few issues WHO or SHO.

Diagnosis #1 from a trusted SME was not enough trigger finger. Focusing on more finger yielded positive results until it didn't. Adding more finger seems to be no longer working.

Diagnosis #2 from a trusted different SME was to use less finger and shift my hand on the frame. This sort of worked until it resulted in a very inconsistent master grip and creates a lot of space under the gun hand.

Personal diagnosis is to grip the hell outta the gun and it seems to work slightly better with the pad of the finger like I used with my M&P and my standard grip, basically throwing what two different guys told me.

Thoughts?

This may sound strange, but I do not think the problem is your technique.

I have found that even with a “perfect” grip and trigger finger placement and all that I can still fire bad shots. Even when your body and the gun are perfectly set up, you need to pay attention to pressing that trigger straight on back. There really is no technical magic bullet that is going to free you up from proper training.

A few elements of your post lead me to draw this conclusion. You shoot well SHO and WHO because during those times you pay attention and are extra careful with your trigger control. When you try a new technique, the same thing happens. You shoot well while you are paying attention.

Anyways… that is just my suspicion based on your post. YMMV and all of that.

[Al T.]

There really is no technical magic bullet that is going to free you up from proper training.

Excellent point. My task for tomorrow is to hit the range for some 25y work as a session last week with GA Shooter left me very disappointed in my performance.

IMHO, trigger control rules, though my hypothesis (this time anyway) is an eye issue as I'm an old guy.

[Ga Shooter]

Excellent point. My task for tomorrow is to hit the range for some 25y work as a session last week with GA Shooter left me very disappointed in my performance.

IMHO, trigger control rules, though my hypothesis (this time anyway) is an eye issue as I'm an old guy.

You still made me look like a rookie!:D

[LSP972]

IMHO, trigger control rules, though my hypothesis (this time anyway) is an eye issue as I'm an old guy.

I'm getting old too, and have been fretting over my deteriorating vision. But yesterday, I was zeroing a new carbine, and decided to see what I could do with my current carry pistol at 50 and 100.

Its been quite a while since I shot a handgun at anything over 25 yards. So I settled, concentrated on sight alignment and TRIGGER CONTROL, and proceeded to print a three inch group to POA at 50, and stayed in the 8-ring of a B-27 at 100. Granted, from 100 I was shooting off the bench, but the 50 yard group was offhand.

Point is not to boast; point is, its ALL about trigger control. I practice a lot, from concealment. When I'm manipulating the LEM properly, I'm rewarded with nice, tight little groups. When I don't...

But I'll also add my .02 to the possible cause of your problem. Just HOW MUCH finger can you get on your Glock's trigger? I have small hands, and can just get the front edge of the pad over the trigger safety on a Gen 3 pistol. IOW, I have to really pay attention when shooting a standard Glock, to avoid pushing my groups to the left.

When I had Bowie do a grip reduction on a couple of G19s, that particular issue went away because I can get more finger on the trigger now, and I'm not "stretching" to reach the damn thing.

Just something else to consider...

.

[Ga Shooter]

Excellent point. My task for tomorrow is to hit the range for some 25y work as a session last week with GA Shooter left me very disappointed in my performance.

IMHO, trigger control rules, though my hypothesis (this time anyway) is an eye issue as I'm an old guy.

How did it go?

[Ga Shooter]

I'm getting old too, and have been fretting over my deteriorating vision. But yesterday, I was zeroing a new carbine, and decided to see what I could do with my current carry pistol at 50 and 100.

Its been quite a while since I shot a handgun at anything over 25 yards. So I settled, concentrated on sight alignment and TRIGGER CONTROL, and proceeded to print a three inch group to POA at 50, and stayed in the 8-ring of a B-27 at 100. Granted, from 100 I was shooting off the bench, but the 50 yard group was offhand.

Point is not to boast; point is, its ALL about trigger control. I practice a lot, from concealment. When I'm manipulating the LEM properly, I'm rewarded with nice, tight little groups. When I don't...

But I'll also add my .02 to the possible cause of your problem. Just HOW MUCH finger can you get on your Glock's trigger? I have small hands, and can just get the front edge of the pad over the trigger safety on a Gen 3 pistol. IOW, I have to really pay attention when shooting a standard Glock, to avoid pushing my groups to the left.

When I had Bowie do a grip reduction on a couple of G19s, that particular issue went away because I can get more finger on the trigger now, and I'm not "stretching" to reach the damn thing.

Just something else to consider...

.

Since going with Al T. and his great help I have been dry firing almost every day to relearn trigger control. Something I have discovered is that I naturally index the pistol low which I believe is the sight setup so I am changing to the Cap Front and Pro Operator rears as discussed in another thread. Also I have a Gen 4 and I have the same thoughts about grip size. I have been using no backstraps just the SF frame but I am going to play around with the different backstraps to see how that changes my finger placement. Now I am not at the level of some of you so take that for what it is worth.

[LSP972]

Since going with Al T. and his great help I have been dry firing almost every day to relearn trigger control. Something I have discovered is that I naturally index the pistol low which I believe is the sight setup so I am changing to the Cap Front and Pro Operator rears as discussed in another thread. Also I have a Gen 4 and I have the same thoughts about grip size. I have been using no backstraps just the SF frame but I am going to play around with the different backstraps to see how that changes my finger placement. Now I am not at the level of some of you so take that for what it is worth.

Modular grip systems might indeed cure some of this. I can only change the backstrap on my HK45C, but the small one is definitely better for me.

All I can say is, you younger guys just getting started in all of this have it made, in terms of selection and different grip styles/shapes. When I began shooting handguns seriously, Rogers and Pachmyar had recently revolutionized revolver stock options; but the choices among auto-loaders were...limited...:D

.

[Slavex]

This is pretty much what I was going to say too. With the added comment that you need to make sure you are not losing your front sight right at the end of the trigger press.


This may sound strange, but I do not think the problem is your technique.

I have found that even with a “perfect” grip and trigger finger placement and all that I can still fire bad shots. Even when your body and the gun are perfectly set up, you need to pay attention to pressing that trigger straight on back. There really is no technical magic bullet that is going to free you up from proper training.

A few elements of your post lead me to draw this conclusion. You shoot well SHO and WHO because during those times you pay attention and are extra careful with your trigger control. When you try a new technique, the same thing happens. You shoot well while you are paying attention.

Anyways… that is just my suspicion based on your post. YMMV and all of that.

[Ga Shooter]

Just a quick update on the grip size and finger placement. I had recieved one of the new style Grip Force Adapters but had not installed it yet because it is designed to fit the Gen 4 with the Med backstrap or you fill the gap with silicon. Since it is made to fit the Med backstrap I thought I would try that out first to just see how it felt. WOW! What a difference. With the backstrap and the GFA my fingers are now just coming around the front of the grip. Like what was previously said my finger now are making more of a c clamp type pressure. This also opened the left (weak) side more open for me to get the entire heel of my weak hand on the grip and now my right index finger is naturally away from the fram when I pull the trigger ( another tip from Al T). Still have only had a chance to dry fire this way but it feels as if I will have WAY more control of the pistol. I hope to get some live fire in this weekend. I will update when I can.

[pr1042]

Just a quick update on the grip size and finger placement. I had recieved one of the new style Grip Force Adapters but had not installed it yet because it is designed to fit the Gen 4 with the Med backstrap or you fill the gap with silicon. Since it is made to fit the Med backstrap I thought I would try that out first to just see how it felt. WOW! What a difference. With the backstrap and the GFA my fingers are now just coming around the front of the grip. Like what was previously said my finger now are making more of a c clamp type pressure. This also opened the left (weak) side more open for me to get the entire heel of my weak hand on the grip and now my right index finger is naturally away from the fram when I pull the trigger ( another tip from Al T). Still have only had a chance to dry fire this way but it feels as if I will have WAY more control of the pistol. I hope to get some live fire in this weekend. I will update when I can.

Did you have any problems installing? This combo (med backstrap plus smooth GFA) feels perfect but I can't get the pin all the way through. I can install the other GFA (w/ no backstraps) in 10 seconds but this one is making me angry

[Ga Shooter]

Did you have any problems installing? This combo (med backstrap plus smooth GFA) feels perfect but I can't get the pin all the way through. I can install the other GFA (w/ no backstraps) in 10 seconds but this one is making me angry

YES! I have above average strength in my hands so I am not used to being unable to muscle something into place, but this thing was a bear. What I finally realized is that there is not enough "flex" in the GFA to install it quite like Bill does in the video with the original style. I think that is because there is give in the backstrap as well. So how I finally got it on was to push the pin from left to right through the GFA, backstrap, pistol, backstrap, and left a VERY SMALL nub on the left side. This left the smallest of protrusion on the right side. I finally was able to get the right side hole barely in place hanging on the pin. Once that was done used both hands to hold the right side in place while I pressed on the table on the left to drive the pin home. I then centered the pin with Glock tool. Mine did not need to be sanded after install because the pin was pretty flush on both sides. I also found it easier to work with the slide off. Hope this helps.

[167]

This might prove helpful.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azb3q8wOrV4

[orionz06]

Final verdict: Grip harder with the support hand.