Bersa Thunder 380

[warnerj2118]

Anyone own or have known someone who owns a bersa thunder 380? Im reading mostly good reviews on this pistol. Thinking about buying one this weekend.

[TGS]

Try and be objective on buying pistols.

My thought: Why buy a Bersa 380 when you can have a 9mm with 10-13 rounds in the same size? What does the Bersa do that a double stack subcompact 9 such as the Glock 26, HK P2000sk, M&Pc or P99c don't?

If you're after slim, is that slim actually necessary? If so, then what does a Bersa 380 do that a Walther PPS, M&P Shield, Ruger LC9, SIG P239, S&W 3913 or Kahr P9/K9 don't?

[warnerj2118]

I just want comfort while wearing concealed. And the big difference would be a bit of money. I dont have alot of gun shops around so its hard to find used guns. There also isnt alot of gun shows around so that option is out too. If you know a website where i can find these options cheaper then please show me the way!

[jmjames]

Also keep in mind the cost and availability of .380. It is much, much more expensive than 9mm, and there are many fewer options. As someone who mentioned that they are looking for their first concealed carry gun in another thread, that's the gun of thing that matters.

I've learned that if you spend enough time at the range to learnt to shoot well and handle a gun properly, the up-front cost of the firearm is a relatively small part of the equation compared to ammo. You'd rather be shooting, so you are better off spending more on the gun and less on ammo than less on a gun and more on ammo.

Finally, since you are looking to carry, you should be aware that .380 is not a good round for self defense compared to 9mm, .40, etc.

J.Ja

[jmjames]

I just want comfort while wearing concealed. And the big difference would be a bit of money. I dont have alot of gun shops around so its hard to find used guns. There also isnt alot of gun shows around so that option is out too. If you know a website where i can find these options cheaper then please show me the way!

Some suggestions:

www.gunbroker.com
www.budsgunshop.com
www.cheaperthandirt.com
www.cdnninvestments.com

People carry full sized and compact guns all the time quite comfortably. You'd be surprised how comfortable it can be with the right holster in the right position. I carry a P30 which is much bigger than what you are looking at, and it is no more bothersome than carrying a wallet in the back pocket to me.

J.Ja

[warnerj2118]

Okay so my next question would be is there anything worth buying under $300? I feel like anytime I ask about something cheap people talk it down and tell me to go buy something that it $300 more than what I want to spend. I understand that the money shouldnt matter if im using it as self defense, but the price actually does matter. I currently have a hi point 9mm which has terrible reviews but i havent had a problem at all with it. The problem is that its quite heavy to use as a ccw.

[LittleLebowski]

Okay so my next question would be is there anything worth buying under $300? I feel like anytime I ask about something cheap people talk it down and tell me to go buy something that it $300 more than what I want to spend. I understand that the money shouldnt matter if im using it as self defense, but the price actually does matter. I currently have a hi point 9mm which has terrible reviews but i havent had a problem at all with it. The problem is that its quite heavy to use as a ccw.

Sell the HiPoint and save up for a used Glock.

Or, start doing the Drills of the Week here with the HiPoint and publish your results. Take a training class with it.

I'll tell you something; being proficient with a pistol is not a cheap undertaking. If you're happy with how your HiPoint treats you now and are seriously too broke to spend over $300 for a decent pistol; you clearly cannot afford to shoot the thing more than a few boxes of ammo a few times a year. So, walk away from this forum unless you either enjoy being abused or are ready to to expend the time and money needed to become a proficient pistol shooter.

[derekb]

Or, start doing the Drills of the Week here with the HiPoint and publish your results. Take a training class with it.

You could be a rare, rare thing if you started publishing real data about moderate-heavy use of a hipoint.

[warnerj2118]

Wow and youre staff? Im a new member to this site and im new to buying pistols and shooting them. And atm i am focusing more on finishing the semester at school so im not working atm. I figured joining a forum would help me out figuring out what to buy and what not to buy, but it your previous statement has proven me completely wrong. You honestly are telling me to leave the website if I cannot afford something more expensive? Thats awesome help. Thank you so much for a wonderful forum experience. Ill be sure to let customer service know

[TGS]

Below $300? Sure.

You can get a used Beretta 92D from CDNN for $289. Go into the mid $300's and you can get a S&W 6906 or SigPro from CDNN, all 3 of which are very capable pistols that will serve you well.

The real cost will be buying ammo and spending money on quality training. Don't lose hope, because you can still pull this off! If you really don't have the money, then a dedication to bettering yourself with dry-fire drills and quality training regimen (not plinking!) with live ammo will do.

You can get a used Makarov or CZ82 for around $200. They're not top of the line pistols, and your ammo selection is abysmal, but they are viable tools. If you put forth the effort to better yourself by spending $200 for a CZ82 and using what leftover you have for a course, then IMHO you'd be better off than someone with a Glock who doesn't have the money for a course. You'd still be able to confidently defend yourself. Proper training and mindset is more important than anything.

The real question is whether you're after a talisman to stick in your pocket on the cheap, or whether you're dedicated to defending yourself.

ETA: Link to surplus CZ's http://www.jgsales.com/handguns-c-16_155.html

[warnerj2118]

I would be willing to give some data about the hi point but im not going to keep getting on the website if im going to be harrassed everytime I post something. This is the second thing I posted where i have gotten nothing but crap. And nothing against you derek

[LittleLebowski]

Wow and youre staff? Im a new member to this site and im new to buying pistols and shooting them. And atm i am focusing more on finishing the semester at school so im not working atm. I figured joining a forum would help me out figuring out what to buy and what not to buy, but it your previous statement has proven me completely wrong. You honestly are telling me to leave the website if I cannot afford something more expensive? Thats awesome help. Thank you so much for a wonderful forum experience. Ill be sure to let customer service know

Hey bud, you're clearly focused on pinching pennies. I'm telling as the voice of experience that shooting pistols costs money. Ammo, sights, holsters, time. Take a look at the training journals posted on here and do a little math based upon the amount of shooting documented. This hobby costs money. Making a commitment to be a better shooter means spending money and time. Not agonizing over what is the best pistol under $300. However, I did mention that you could train with your HiPoint.

Apostrophes.

[jetfire]

To the OP: The Bersa Thunder .380 is a pile of scrap metal. I had one and broke various bits off it in under 300 rounds. I'd avoid it at all costs.

Let me flip the script here on you for a second: you say you don't want to spend more than $300 on a carry gun. A carry gun that you're going to bet your life on if, god forbid you should ever need it. So my question to you, "Is your life really only worth 300 bucks to you?"

[HeadHunter]

I have a Bersa .380 and a Bersa .22. I shoot them both quite a bit. They're very reliable pistols; I use the .380 as my demo gun for Concealed Carry classes and it hasn't malfunctioned yet. The trigger is actually quite good for a DA/SA. The sights are decent and windage adjustable. It's a noticeably thinner package than any double column 9mm.

There is about a 50% premium on ammo cost for .380 but the flip side is that .22 ammo is inexpensive practice ammo.

[warnerj2118]

I have also been looking at a SCCY CPX-1 9mm. Never heard of the brand so im not sure of it? Like anything else I have looked at they are up and down reviews. Thoughts?

[cclaxton]

I own a Bersa Thunder 380 CC. It's a bit smaller than the regular Thunder and lightweight. I like the gun and it is very reliable and shoots straight and has a GREAT TRIGGER. It is also inexpensive and mags and parts and holsters are easy to find. It conceals really well. I have no problem with the .380 round....I have compared 9mm and .380 hollowpoints and they are very comparable. But more than that, shot placement is everything and a 22LR-HP will absolutely do the job with good shot placement. If you are going into combat, get a .45, if you are going to carry, get something you can shoot accurately and fast and is comfy to carry and easy to conceal. Now the issues: because it is so lightweight you will feel the recoil and I find that the recoil causes my grip to move around a bit and when I shoot fast I lose accuracy. Perhaps adding grip tape and more aggressive grips would help. Your hands and grip might be different and better or worse experience. Secondly, it is a cheaply made gun...the finish is not nearly as nice as other guns...but it is reliable and sturdy.

I don't carry the Bersa anymore because I have graduated to better guns. I am a fan of 9mm because I shoot IDPA and shoot over 1000 rounds a month and the ammo is cheaper.

I carry a Kimber 9mm, but it is expensive at about $1100.

For a reliable and relatively inexpensive small concealable handgun with modest recoil, consider the Taurus Millenium Pro 9mm or the Ruger LC9.

Other guns on the top of my list:
S&W M&P Compact 9mm;
Cz 2075 RAMI 9mm;
Kahr PM9 or CM9;
Walther PPK .380;
Glock 19;
Springfield XD subcompact;
Beretta Nano;

If you are willing to go with a 22LR, and you really should consider if you plan to become a good shot. These guns have low recoil and are comfy to carry and easy to conceal and cheap ammo:
Browning 1911-22 A1;
Bersa Firestorm 22LR;
Beretta Bobcat;
S&W M&P22;
Walther P22

First, you should decide if you want DA/SA, DA only Striker fired, or SA/Cocked and Locked. Personally I don't care for the Glock and XD triggers....they feel mushy to me. I love a relatively light crisp clean trigger with a short reset. That is why I hate the Kel-tec guns...horrible triggers IMHO. I don't care for the DA-only long-travel triggers...too much time for me to lose accuracy.

But you will have your own preferences, so you should try out triggers and grips until you find one that fits you.

Good Luck, be safe, and get adequate training.
CC

[HeadHunter]

So my question to you, "Is your life really only worth 300 bucks to you?"

That's a moot question when the rent is due.

[TGS]

That's a moot question when the rent is due.

True that.

If you don't have the money, then you don't have the money. As someone who was raised on powdered milk by a single disabled mother, I can sympathize with the OP.

Mindset, mindset, mindset. An attitude to better yourself and a cheapo used commie pistol is what I'm seeing in the OP's future.

[jmjames]

An attitude to better yourself and a cheapo used commie pistol is what I'm seeing in the OP's future.

Classic Arms has used Tokarevs and Makarovs for nearly nothing, that may be worth investigating too. There are few choices in GOOD ammo, but lots of cheap stuff for the range, it seems like.

J.Ja

[jetfire]

That's a moot question when the rent is due.

That's actually the point of that question - I've argued in the past that if "all you can afford" is $250 for a pistol, that perhaps a person needs to look at one's priorities instead.

[TGS]

That's actually the point of that question - I've argued in the past that if "all you can afford" is $250 for a pistol, that perhaps a person needs to look at one's priorities instead.


Maybe he could get a Glock if he actually wanted to, but has prioritized things (such as finishing school with good grades in order to at least get a job unlike most college grads) and said "I can only spend $300."

There's a thought. :rolleyes:

Or maybe he hasn't. Or maybe it's not our job to stand on a soapbox in the first place.

[jetfire]

I've been in his shoes. I was a broke college student that bought the follow guns at one time or another:

Bersa Thunder .380
Taurus PT92
Kel-Tec P32
Ruger SP101
Colt Trooper Mk III
Glock 29
non-brand name 1911


I don't remember exactly what those guns cost me, but figure about 2500 bucks worth of guns that I didn't keep or shoot very much. If, instead of buying those stupid guns I had listened when someone said "save up the extra cash and get a Glock 17", I'd have been a lot better off for it. Although I do wish I had kept the Trooper, just because it was cool. The point isn't to be on a soapbox. The point is that as a college student I can think of a lot of things that 300 bucks would be better for than some POS Bersa. If I'd been smart when I was 21 (I wasn't very) I'd have listened to my father and just bought a K-frame, which would have lasted me until I was ready to start training seriously. Or I would have saved that extra cash for a Glock.

[Moshe Dayan]

When I was broke and in school, my first handgun was a PA-63 I got for around $100. It has been an very reliable little pistol. Still carry it regularly. PA-63s, P64s, and CZ vz.82s can all be had for $250 or less and are great pistols. Sometimes your budget does not allow for $500 handgun, but that doesn't mean you have no options.

[TGS]

I've been in his shoes. I was a broke college student that bought the follow guns at one time or another:

Bersa Thunder .380
Taurus PT92
Kel-Tec P32
Ruger SP101
Colt Trooper Mk III
Glock 29
non-brand name 1911


I don't remember exactly what those guns cost me, but figure about 2500 bucks worth of guns that I didn't keep or shoot very much. If, instead of buying those stupid guns I had listened when someone said "save up the extra cash and get a Glock 17", I'd have been a lot better off for it. Although I do wish I had kept the Trooper, just because it was cool. The point isn't to be on a soapbox. The point is that as a college student I can think of a lot of things that 300 bucks would be better for than some POS Bersa. If I'd been smart when I was 21 (I wasn't very) I'd have listened to my father and just bought a K-frame, which would have lasted me until I was ready to start training seriously. Or I would have saved that extra cash for a Glock.


Okay, so he can slowly save whatever money he has and buy a Glock several months from now. Then, he still won't be able to afford training for some time after that because he's had to save so much just to be able to afford a gun. So he can have a 100% solution some time from now....let's say 6 months for the sake of argument. What about that time in between then and now? He's got a 0% solution. A 70% solution now using an unspectacular but dependable gun and training is better than a 100% solution some period of time later.

The gun prophet Tamara once said, "Getting all hung up on the gun, as opposed to the shooting thereof, seems to miss the point, and actually run counter to the ethos of this forum."

Off topic, but I'm having trouble understanding how a Ruger SP101 was "stupid" but a K-frame would have been the smart thing to do. I'm also not understanding how "broke" can be applied to a person that bought $2500 worth of guns.

[ToddG]

Ill be sure to let customer service know

Consider customer service informed.

As to your original post, try to understand what it is you're asking: "Which cheap crappy gun won't be cheap and crappy?" If all you can afford is a Yugo and you need a car right now, then you buy the Yugo... but you have to understand that you've bought a Yugo. Folks aren't being malicious, they're just being sincere. At the price point you mentioned (under $250) it's hard to recommend one brand or model over another. None of them are going to meet the expectations of the typical person you'll find here.

It's great that you want to protect yourself and take responsibility for your own well-being by choosing to go armed. But as Lil'L alluded, pistol-forum.com caters in large part to folks whose annual (or even monthly) ammo budgets significantly eclipse what you're wanting to spend on your pistol. As such, the truth is that few people on this forum will have first hand experience with the guns you're asking about. What little experience we may have will be evaluated in comparison to more expensive guns, leading in many instances to a negative opinion. Your Hi-Point is a great example: the level of reliability you report (1 stoppage per 200rd) might be acceptable to some people but will be seen as utterly suicidal around here.

Personally, I'd recommend finding a decent used Glock 26 or Glock 19. They're abundant (so prices are reasonable), hard to hurt (so a used gun is probably in good shape unless the previous owner modified it somehow), and very popular (so as your time and resources allow you'll be able to improve with the gun you bought instead of needing to buy another). If that means you need to save up an extra month or two, candidly, I think that's a better option. Of course, as I said earlier, if you're in a situation where you need it now then you get what you can afford now.

[ToddG]

Okay, so he can slowly save whatever money he has and buy a Glock several months from now. Then, he still won't be able to afford training for some time after that because he's had to save so much just to be able to afford a gun. So he can have a 100% solution some time from now....let's say 6 months for the sake of argument. What about that time in between then and now? He's got a 0% solution. A 70% solution now using an unspectacular but dependable gun and training is better than a 100% solution some period of time later.

Exactly how much training (and practice) do you expect given the stated budget? I see people taking "CCW Classes" all the time and few of them are one iota more combat ready at the end of the class than they were at the beginning.

Candidly, assuming someone has good safety habits already, a used Glock and a few hours of point shooting familiarity would beat a new Hi-Point and a one day basic marksmanship class that was all about "front sight, trigger press" and expected the student -- unrealistically -- to practice those skills to the point he could use them under stress.


The gun prophet Tamara once said, "Getting all hung up on the gun, as opposed to the shooting thereof, seems to miss the point, and actually run counter to the ethos of this forum."

Tam can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing she was assuming the guns upon which we were getting hanged (huhwha?) were all otherwise recognized, proven, reliable products. But hey, if you want to shoot a Hi-Point exclusively at AFHF later this year, I'm game. :cool:

[TGS]

Exactly how much training (and practice) do you expect given the stated budget? I see people taking "CCW Classes" all the time and few of them are one iota more combat ready at the end of the class than they were at the beginning.

In an earlier post I spoke to dry-fire practice and a live fire training regimen. I can see that I wasn't clear enough........so, lot's of dry fire, with short but sweet live fire.

I'm sure we've heard the same examples of foreign militaries being trained by US military advisers on almost a complete dry-fire regimen, and when the US advisers left these soldiers had marksmanship skills commensurate with or exceeding our T&R standards. A US Marine is already capable of hitting black at 500 yards before he/she has fired a single live round, and that's because of the extensive dry fire they do beforehand. So, while he's obviously not going to be competing for grand-master, he could still become able to defend himself with some amount of proficiency and confidence on very little money. If we were picking teams like kickball, I'd rather have someone with a CZ83 who trains than Christoper Parent with a tricked out HK45.


Tam can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing she was assuming the guns upon which we were getting hanged (huhwha?) were all otherwise recognized, proven, reliable products. But hey, if you want to shoot a Hi-Point exclusively at AFHF later this year, I'm game. :cool:

I never said the hi-point, I said a used com-bloc pistol; CZ82 specifically. They're inglorious and crude, but recognized, proven and reliable products. Not my first choice, but it's still a viable tool for exerting your will on someone.

As for AFHF, the Hi-Point is out of the running. I'm on the fence between a Jimenez JA-9 or that double .45 1911 thing. If I bring the double 1911, I'll have to bring a tweed jacket and tactical gloves like the guy in the video though.....and it's going to be August. Time to hydrate.

[CCT125US]

To the OP's original question. I have a Bersa Thunder .380 that has roughly 1k rounds through it. I have had several failure to ejects (FTE) The gun can be fairly accurate (1" at 7yds), but it is not a one hole gun. Keep in mind this is with hand loads. It developed some metal distortion on the slide rails after 500 rounds or so. When ejecting a live round the extractor lacks sufficient tension to throw the round out of the chamber, it relies somewhat on the blow back action to eject the spent cartridge. This is not ideal for a carry gun and makes any possible malfunctions hard to clear. Also it has a slide mounted safety which is less than ideal in my opinion. Capacity is limited relative to the size of the gun. Sights are adjustable but fragile. Based on your criteria of under $300, lets look at several paths that you could take. Please bear with me as I am plugging in some variables on your behalf... Path 1 BT.380 $300, 1000 rds of .380 at $18 per 50 = $360 for a total of $660. Path 2 used Glock 19 Gen 3 $400ish, 1000 rds of 9mm at $12 per 50= $240 for a total of $640. Path one is a gun that typically has to be shipped to Colorado Gun Works Att. C. Royce Honeycutt for warranty repairs. Path 2 is a gun that can be fixed by a multitude of Glock Certified Armorers all across the country. Looking at cost alone, path 2 is cheaper based on going through 1K rounds. But in the long term, path 2 will yield less trouble in shipping and handling, down time, potential of being without a gun which leads to loss of practice, and most importantly lack of ability to use that gun for self defense. Unfortunately people get focused on the initial purchase price and forget to look down the road slightly and forecast potential problems and how they might be solved. In all honesty I enjoy shooting my BT380, it is a fun plinkin' gun. But I would never carry it for self defense as I have other options available to me. And something to keep in mind is that some folks on this board make a living shooting, or teaching people how to shoot, myself included. There are many subject matter experts (S.M.E.) on this forum who have started where you are at and have the clarity of hindsight.

[lamarbrog]

After the initial bickering, I kind of lost interest and didn't read the whole thread... so if this was posted, forgive me.


http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?groupid=569&name=Czech+CZ-82+9x18+Makarov+Pistol (http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?groupid=569&name=Czech+CZ-82+9x18+Makarov+Pistol)
$220. You should come out at under $300 even with shipping and transfer.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/catalog.aspx?groupid=45&name=9x18+Makarov
Ammo costs about the same as 9mm, although you are sort of limited in choices. Everyone will curse me, but carrying ball ammo for self defense really isn't that big of a deal. Sure, a JHP is better, but they'll both get the job done if you do your part.

That's all.

PS: Forgot to add, the reason I am suggesting this is because the Bersa Thunder is a piece of trash. It's a poorly made copy of an obsolete design, plus some extra lawyer features.

Also, check any local classified ads. There are used guns out there. Often, you can run into good guns for cheap if you are patient and spend some time looking.

[ToddG]

In an earlier post I spoke to dry-fire practice and a live fire training regimen. I can see that I wasn't clear enough........so, lot's of dry fire, with short but sweet live fire.

Suggest you look into the survivability of many of the cheaper mouse guns when it comes to high volume dry-fire.


I'm sure we've heard the same examples of foreign militaries being trained by US military advisers on almost a complete dry-fire regimen, and when the US advisers left these soldiers had marksmanship skills commensurate with or exceeding our T&R standards.

There's a huge gulf between the marksmanship requirements for squad-level combat in a warzone and individual personal protection in a domestic civilian setting. There's also a lot more going on during that "almost a complete dry-fire regimen" than just marksmanship. I'd suggest that anyone who cannot afford a Glock likely cannot afford to take the kind of training that would deliver the same level of preparedness as having a team of select U.S. servicemen providing days or even weeks of intense broad spectrum combat preparation.


As for AFHF, the Hi-Point is out of the running. I'm on the fence between a Jimenez JA-9 or that double .45 1911 thing. If I bring the double 1911, I'll have to bring a tweed jacket and tactical gloves like the guy in the video though.....and it's going to be August. Time to hydrate.

I'm unfamiliar with the "double 1911 thing" but if you shoot a JA-9 throughout the entire AFHF and complete every exercise, I'll give you a full refund for the class tuition along with your certificate. :cool:

[Steve S.]

Pretty sure that double 1911 monstrosity would be considered a machine pistol by US law. Dont think it will make it stateside.

Remember what Kirk Lazarus said...

[Tamara]

To the OP: The Bersa Thunder .380 is a pile of scrap metal. I had one and broke various bits off it in under 300 rounds.

When I hired on at CCA in November of 2004, there was a Thunder 380 in the rental case. When I left in June of '07, the same Bersa was in there. Sure, it had an annoying habit of losing grip screws until we started Loc-Titing them in, but there weren't any parts breakages I can remember, despite it being rented more or less once a day. I don't recollect a bunch coming in for breakages or issues running.

I saw one make it through Day One of an Awerbuck class with no breakages or malfs; it didn't come back for day two, but that was because of the shooter. Our friend Kathy Jackson says she's never seen one complete a class without issues.

I don't doubt myself, nor do I doubt either one of y'all.

Would it be my first choice or even my tenth? No. But it definitely falls into the "better than a handful of nothing" category for the gun owner that refuses to spend more for a pistol that will hold up to getting its guts pounded out over tens of thousands of rounds. Would I sell one to my mom? Yeah, given how little she'd shoot it (were she to decide to buy a gun in the first place) I'd imagine it would probably stand up to her projected duty cycle just fine.

In the "ballistic rabbit's foot" department, one could do a lot worse.

[Tamara]

I have also been looking at a SCCY CPX-1 9mm. Never heard of the brand so im not sure of it? Like anything else I have looked at they are up and down reviews. Thoughts?
I think I wouldn't line my cat's litter box with ground-up SCCYs. :o

[Tamara]

Tam can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing she was assuming the guns upon which we were getting hanged (huhwha?) were all otherwise recognized, proven, reliable products.

No, you're right.

Still, as someone whose choice was once a $100 gun or driving home at 0130 unarmed, I can kinda sympathize with the OP. :o

[Joe in PNG]

I've been in the same boat of being a nearly broke student scratching up enough cash for a gun. Sadly, most of the time that gun has been a cheap POS that I've traded at a loss for something a little better... repeat process.

So, the best way to save money over time is to save up for something good that will last you a good while. In the meantime, learn how to shop for a good gun. Read what the folks here are shooting (mostly Glock, S&W and H&K) and check the internet and local gunshops for used versions. You may not be able to get one just yet, but you'll have a good idea of what you're looking for. And when the time comes that you have some extra cash, you'll be able to get a pretty good deal on something you'll be able to shoot a lot for a lot of years. And in the long run, you'll save a lot of green.

[TCinVA]

Not having a gun when you need one sucks. If someone has no gun I'm typically going to give advice around the idea of getting them one they can actually carry on a daily basis as quickly as possible.

A choice between a hi-point and fingernails is easy: Hipoint.

The gun thing is expensive. Unreasonably so, frankly. Todd once mentioned that a company was looking at making essentially what was a "disposable" gun with X number of rounds contained within the weapon and a lifespan designed around essentially expending the ammo built into the weapon and then it being recycled or disposed of. When he said that I thought it was the stupidest thing I'd ever heard...but now I think that having a modern, more capable repeating Liberator style pistol would make a ton of sense for lots of people. Hell, I'd buy a few myself. The BATFE would never let it happen, but that's government for you.

If somebody is in the position where they're already on a Ramen diet and they need a pistol (and odds are if you're on that kind of budget you live in a spot where you really do need a pistol), a Makarov is usually a good bet. The Makarov is the most prolific handgun on the planet. They are typically built like tanks and parts/accessories are as plentiful as it gets with commie surplus handguns. Not an ideal weapon by any stretch, but then again it doesn't have to have a great trigger and useful sights when its primary mission was shooting dissidents in the head. It's without question the best $120.00 handgun I've ever encountered even with all the faults. They cost somewhat more than that now, but if you look around you should be able to find one for less than $250...perhaps less than $200. If you can find a CZ-82 from one of the distributors that normally deals with C&R weapons, they're also pretty good handguns but tend to be a bit bulkier and don't like Wolf. They are more like a modern handgun in every other respect, though...but aren't as well supported in the aftermarket as the Makarov.

Obviously a used 9mm Glock would be great, but used Glocks are a lot like used Toyota Tacoma/Hilux trucks: They tend to command almost new prices on the market, and you never quite know what the previous owner did to the thing. The exception would be a trade-in gun from a PD. Somebody was selling former PD issue 2nd generation Glock 19 pistols a little while ago. Those would be a good option.

A good used S&W K/J frame revolver would also be a nice weapon. Something like a used model 10. Trouble is I have a hell of a time finding cheap K frames anymore. Even the police turn-in guns that look like they've been tied to somebody's bumper and taken cross country are showing up with asking prices north of $250. I like to blame people when I can't get what I want, so I blame people like Tam for buying up old revolvers. :D

S&W's SD line is essentially improved Sigmas, but they aren't too bad. The actual Sigmas kind of suck, but S&W did actually get them to go bang fairly reliably after initial teething problems. Sometimes you can find a used Sigma cheap, and if so it's not the worst option.

If I was desperate, I'd buy a used Taurus .38 revolver.

I'd only stick with a hi-point if I had absolutely no other choice. It would literally have to be a choice between the hi-point and a pointed stick...and even then I'd look pretty hard at the pointed stick.

All of the options I've listed (save for a good used Glock) have serious limitations that will become annoying if you shoot a lot or want to invest a lot of time and effort into building proficiency with a handgun. They are, however, likely to launch a bullet when you need them to, can be reasonably concealed on your person, and would work for the purposes of self defense in the absence of a better choice. I would never knock anyone who was really in desperate straits for buying something like a Makarov for self defense because they couldn't afford something else.

...but just like so many other things in life, the number of people who genuinely can't afford a better gun are typically a fairly small minority of people who make the claim that they can't. Many people just suck with priorities. I've had the experience of standing in line at Starbucks listening to someone tell me they couldn't afford a Glock. This person dropped 10 bucks in Starbucks on a drink and a pastry. They do this at least 3 times a week. The difference between a Glock they didn't purchase and the pistol they did purchase was less than a month of Starbucks visits. What they really meant when they said "I can't afford a Glock" was "I don't want to do what it takes to buy a Glock instead of pistol X." I'm not saying everyone is in that position, but just as there are lots of people who claim they can't conceal something larger than a Ruger LCP on a daily basis because they simply aren't willing to put forth the effort, there are those who simply won't do what it takes to buy a better gun. The kicker there is that every time I've encountered someone who initially bought cheap they end up regretting it pretty quickly thereafter, only now they're stuck with this gun that they hate and can't shoot worth beans...and they wish they'd just saved up a little longer and bought the better gun. That $100-150 dollar difference sure looks like a lot in the gunstore, but once they have some hands-on experience living with the thing day to day they start to understand why lots of sane, rational people happily pay that price difference.

My motivation for having the handgun proceeds from knowing what it's like to need a handgun and not have one. It was severely unpleasant. As a result I would do darn near anything to get up enough money for a decent gun and the gear I need to carry it, up to and including selling my plasma. I'd sooner go through my daily life without a cell phone than without a handgun. Truth be told, many people could buy a decent gun if they put that kind of priority on doing it. Many do not.

Self defense starts with mindset. If someone's mindset is so poor that they won't give up Starbucks to buy a decent tool of self defense they're failing from the gate. We'd rather help that individual see the error of their ways and correct instead of enabling it as some are wont to do. Invariably that stance is labeled "elitist" or "unrealistic" by some.

I don't give a **CENSORED**.

If someone isn't intelligent enough to examine what I'm saying any deeper than that, then I have absolutely no interest in their opinion because it's worthless. Trying to open closed minds isn't a vocation that I find enjoyable.

[RoyGBiv]

As has been said before in this thread, IMO, your best bet is to save up an extra $100 and buy a 9mm Glock. Trade in the HiPoint, mow a few lawns, help a neighbor move, or just save for another month or two. You'll save that $100 in ammo (9mm vs. .380) in short order and you'll have a better gun. A long-term keeper that is "professional grade". Concealment is mostly about the "how" not the "what". A Glock 9mm is definitely comfortably concealable.

Find yourself a "Law Enforcement Supply" place. There has to be one in Broome County somewhere (I lived in Bingo-land for a while, too many years ago). If you can't find one, ask a Deputy Sheriff where they buy their gear (DON'T ask a campus COP ;) ). Go in and make friends with the owner, tell them your story. Tell them you're looking for a good used Glock 9mm. I bet you get the help you need in short order.

Make some inquiries at the gun club. You're likely to find some local shooters will empathize with your situation. It's a community, and some of the best resources for the hands-on things will be found in meat-space, not the internet.

Binghamton Gun Club Inc
11 Suncrest Drive, Conklin, NY 13748
(607) 775-2178 ‎

Here in DFW, the place to go for a LE-recycled Glock is usually GT Distributors
http://www.gtdist.com/SearchResults.aspx?SubCat=HAND&SubSub=GLOCK&Category=GUNAM

The only used Glock they're listing today is a Gen-3 G22 (.40) for $330 plus shipping and transfer.
If you look at the LE-only new gun prices, a new G-19 is less than $400 plus ship & transfer.... But you need to be LE to buy new.

Good luck.!

ETA: Another place to go make friends:
Mc Lain's Sporting Goods Inc
1001 Union Center Maine Highway, Endicott, NY 13760
(607) 786-1214 ‎

[JHC]

[Redundant but sympathetic deleted]

[TGS]

Suggest you look into the survivability of many of the cheaper mouse guns when it comes to high volume dry-fire.

Good point. Add $15 to the price for snap caps with a P-64 or CZ82. Unnecessary for Makarov's, however. Even with the cost of snap caps, it's entirely possible to buy a P-64 for under or at $200.



There's a huge gulf between the marksmanship requirements for squad-level combat in a warzone and individual personal protection in a domestic civilian setting. There's also a lot more going on during that "almost a complete dry-fire regimen" than just marksmanship. I'd suggest that anyone who cannot afford a Glock likely cannot afford to take the kind of training that would deliver the same level of preparedness as having a team of select U.S. servicemen providing days or even weeks of intense broad spectrum combat preparation.

Excellent point. Still, if he saves for a Glock/SigPro/6906, he's still that much further behind the curve on being able to afford training.

I'm not saying the Glock/SigPro/6906 isn't a better gun, but the point here isn't to get the best gun. It's to get the best solution for employment of a handgun in self-defense using what's available. Not having a gun until months from now, and not being able to afford training for several months after that is a worse solution than having a reliable, serviceable gun tomorrow and getting some training when he'd otherwise just begin to be able to purchase a Glock/SigPro/6906.

I can see where people want to steer him away from cheap guns such as Taurus autos or Saturday night specials. Their aggregate reliability is abysmal, hit or miss QC, nonexistent warranty support, ect. A used ComBloc pistol isn't a Taurus or Saturday night special. They're crude, ugly and unspectacular, but they're reliable and robust. If you can squeeze out the extra dough for a Glock/SigPro/6906, yes, they're much better platforms. If squeezing out that extra dough means you're going to give up the ability to afford training for several months, then my opinion is to use a serviceable ComBloc pistol and afford any training sooner. We can't predict when a criminal chooses to target us......it could be tomorrow, it could be 6 months from now. I'd rather have a 70% solution to defend myself tomorrow rather than a 0% solution. Similarly, in 3(?) months from now I'd rather have a ComBloc pistol and 8-16 hours of training than a Glock/SigPro/6906 and no training.

[SteveK]

I'd like to second and third the Makarov. Bulgarian models are of decent quality and can be found in the $200 range. Ammo can still be found reasonably and in the original chambering (9x18) it is no slouch. I think we Americans are at times gun snobbish. Fit and finish are Ed Brown-like, but remember it served the Com-Bloc rather well for quite a few decades. If I was left in a position where I could only arm myself with one handgun and it had to be $250 or less, the Makarov would be my one and only choice in an auto pistol.

[JeffJ]

I'll second, or third, or whatever the Makarov. I had one for a while and never found it lacking really. In fact, I kinda wish I still had it. It carried easy and shot well - this was before I got serious about pistol shooting but I did a few IDPA matches with it and probably put 1000 rounds through it without a hiccup. It think its a real nice size for a carry gun as well.

[MadMax17]

Like most things in life, this subject is one of compromise. The OP is going to have to weigh what is more important to him.

Many people much more intelligent and experienced than I have advised that the most important rule of a gunfight is to bring a gun. So if the OP feels that he needs a gun "right now right now" (name the comedian), then he would probably be best served getting one of the cheaper but reliable models mentioned earlier, with the understanding that it will probably cost him more $$ in the future if he decides to get more serious in this hobby/lifestyle.

If on the other hand he feels he could safely wait and pinch pennies to get a more mainstream model some months down the road, this will probably save him $$ in the long run if he plans to get more serious.

Again, it's all about compromise, which will require the OP to take serious stock of his situation in regards to what he can or can not afford (both in terms of dollars and safety).

[Mr_White]

When I was approaching my 21st birthday and was absolutely scraping to afford a $300 pistol, plus full-capacity magazine, carry ammo, a little practice ammo, and a holster, I bought a (then just released) Ruger P95. At the time that gun was very reliable, though I don't remember how much I actually shot it. Probably about 1000 total rounds, including about 400 rounds in some initial training that I was very fortunate to get.

That gun wasn't a bad choice at the time, though there are a number of other, more expensive guns that are significantly more size-efficient.

If I had it to do over again, I'd wait for another month or two continuing to rely on the edged weapons I had been previously relying on for self defense with deadly force, save up just a little more money, and get a ~$400 used 9mm Glock 17 or 19.

I don't like the Bersa Thunder very much. That is because every time I've worked a class where a person brought that gun, they had a distinctly more difficult and more painful time manipulating the gun, creating a less fun and less productive training experience for them. I didn't see very many of them, but didn't like what I did see.

I'm also with everyone else; Bersa or whatever gun strongly beats no gun at all.

[GOP]

If all you have is $300, then I'd definitely recommend getting something like a Makarov. The first rule of a gunfight is to have a gun. Buy a Makarov, dry practice the heck out of it, spend $50 a month on ammo (shoot some bang for your buck drills like the FAST, El Prez, and 300 agg to track progress), and save up for a nicer gun. To everyone here (including mods) saying that this isn't the place for you because you don't have much money to spend on shooting, ignore them. HeadHunter sells dry fire CD's that are excellent, and he once had a German police officer shoot Advanced at Roger's (I believe) who only shot 300 rounds a month. Buy a couple of books or DVD's on the fundamentals of shooting. Get a gun and train dry until your hands hurt and are tore up. Continue saving up until you can buy a Gen 2 Glock or something similar. This is a process if doing it on a budget, and you can definitely get there in time. However, I highly recommend buying a gun of some sort soon, as getting in a gunfight without one would really suck.

As far as the Bersa, a lady at the range rented one not too long ago, and shot by me. She had repeated FTF and FTE's.

As far as books go, I'd order "Refinement and Repetition" from Steve Anderson.

As far as DVD's go, "Shooting Missology" from Tactical Response is a decent primer on the fundamentals of shooting.

[digiadaamore]

Id also add that i think a decent surplus/used walther p-1/p-38 may be a better alternative in 9mm

[TGS]

Id also add that i think a decent surplus/used walther p-1/p-38 may be a better alternative in 9mm


If you have a good source, hook a brotha' up. All the ones I've seen are about the same price as a SigPro, police trade-in Glock or 6906.

[Al T.]

I'm more than with TGS, PSA has them way over what a used solid G19 brings.

As for the CZ-82, if these were 9x17, I'd order five. As they are 9x18, I'll probably order one as my cousin needs a decent inexpensive carry gun.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F3CZ82&utm_source=AIM+Surplus+Main+List&utm_campaign=ee4f67e386-04202012&utm_medium=email

[derekb]

As for the CZ-82, if these were 9x17, I'd order five.[/url]

Why is that?

ETA: Oh, that's .380, yeah?

[TGS]

I'm more than with TGS, PSA has them way over what a used solid G19 brings.

As for the CZ-82, if these were 9x17, I'd order five. As they are 9x18, I'll probably order one as my cousin needs a decent inexpensive carry gun.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=F3CZ82&utm_source=AIM+Surplus+Main+List&utm_campaign=ee4f67e386-04202012&utm_medium=email

Your wish has been answered!

JG Sales: CZ83, .380ACP, $229 per when you order more than 2 (http://www.jgsales.com/cz-83-czech-surplus-380acp-pistol,-overall-good-to-very-good-condition.-p-5703.html)

[Chuck Haggard]

My first question would have actually been; What is the mission of this purchase? Mission drives the gear train and all.

Does the OP need a carry pistol? Is this strictly for home defense and won't be carried at all (which opens up the possibility that a handgun might not be the best purchase for the job)?



I absolutely gets where some of ya'll are coming from, but just because someone can't afford, or even handle, the best choices in carry pistols does not mean they should give up on a defensive firearm or a CCW handgun.

I note Headhunter's "Little Old Man Gun" and the very similar mission "Little Old Lady Gun" from threads over at TPI. Neither of these handguns are what Todd or I or Doc would choose for personal CCW use, but they cover the needs of the mission they were chosen for very well.

The OP in this thread may be in similar circumstances.


Having been in a position in the past where I was sleeping in the back seat of a '73 Nova for a few weeks and living on tuna and Ramen noodles I totally get being so short of funds that you have to compromise somewhere. I was lucky back then to have a previously purchased Security-Six that I could dry fire the crap out of, but if I hadn't bought it a few years before I found myself in a bad position for awhile then I sure wouldn't have been able to buy that gun when things were going badly.

[motorjon68]

I wanted a PPK or whatever. Bought the Bersa based on great reviews, better DA trigger and price. Love it. When I quit playing with it I might give it to my wife.

[ToddG]

http://9x19mm.com/photoalbum/albums/userpics/archer-phrasing.jpg

[jstyer]

Hahahaha! TLG for the win!

[peterb]

I note Headhunter's "Little Old Man Gun" and the very similar mission "Little Old Lady Gun" from threads over at TPI. Neither of these handguns are what Todd or I or Doc would choose for personal CCW use, but they cover the needs of the mission they were chosen for very well.

Link please?

[orionz06]

When I worked at the gun counter of a Gander Mountain even the fudds there knew the Bersa was crap. During the period I worked there we sold over 40 of them and more than 30 came back to be fixed because they could not even shoot their one box of ammo a year through them.

ETA: One case of 9mm is $180 from Natchezss, one case of .380 is 280. There is your $100 difference to get a Glock.

[dookie1481]

Link please?

Need to be a member to view: http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10326

[jmat]

I find this kind funny. I am on my second bersa .380. I am not a pstol marksman by any means. Both of my guns made me look good. At a distance of 50 feet, I can keep a 2" group. My first bersa was a modle 85, 7 shot. I picked it up at a gun show for 150.00. After a good cleaning I a hundred rounds of winchester flat nose ammo through it without a problem. I sold it at a gun show a couple of weeks later to pickup a new sig P250 s&w 40, I got it for 300.00. To cheep to pass up. It's a gun I wanted anyway. A couple of months later I picked up a nother bersa .380. Modle 85, 13 shot, with two clips. I gave 150.00 for it too. After a good cleaning It too is super dependable and dead on accurate. I didn't have to spend big money for good solid guns.

[TGS]

I find this kind funny. I am on my second bersa .380. I am not a pstol marksman by any means. Both of my guns made me look good. At a distance of 50 feet, I can keep a 2" group. My first bersa was a modle 85, 7 shot. I picked it up at a gun show for 150.00. After a good cleaning I a hundred rounds of winchester flat nose ammo through it without a problem. I sold it at a gun show a couple of weeks later to pickup a new sig P250 s&w 40, I got it for 300.00. To cheep to pass up. It's a gun I wanted anyway. A couple of months later I picked up a nother bersa .380. Modle 85, 13 shot, with two clips. I gave 150.00 for it too. After a good cleaning It too is super dependable and dead on accurate. I didn't have to spend big money for good solid guns.

100 rounds is hardly a large enough sample size to make any determinations, whatsoever, about a gun's reliability or longevity. It's pretty meaningless.

[DanH]

I think I'd need about that many rounds a week for at least a month to consider a gun trustworthy. And a 9mm is so much cheaper to shoot than a .380, even the 500-1000 round evaluation period would save you enough money on ammo to buy a better weapon.

[jmat]

Around here, The cost difference between 9mm, .380 and .40, is about the same. .380 and .40 is the same. Some of the 9mm rounds here are higher, some are cheeper. I personley don't Like 9mm's, I havent had good luck with them. I don't need a fancey expencive gun to carry every day. I have no problems with my bersa. I can empty booth clips in about 90sec, on target. I don't shoot thousands of rounds a year. I don't live in town either, I have to deal with rattle snakes and copper heads about every day. my gun is in the field every day, If something happens to it I am not out much. Every time I need it, it works fine. A kimber is a great looking gun don't get me wrong, The ones I have shot don't shoot any better than any thhing else. Everybody has there own tastes, thats why they make different guns. I have shot a lot of different makes and modles. I have owned quite a few. The only one I regret Selling Is the first bersa I had. He offered me twice what I had in mine, I walked down three tables and picked up my sig, with no out of pocket money. Thats the only reason I sold mine.

[Steve S.]

Around here, The cost difference between 9mm, .380 and .40, is about the same. .380 and .40 is the same. Some of the 9mm rounds here are higher, some are cheeper. I personley don't Like 9mm's, I havent had good luck with them.

I highly doubt 9mm ammo is more expensive than .380 ammo anywhere in the United States currently - if comparing apples to apples (target to target, SD to SD, Match to Match, etc.). What was the bad luck with 9mm?


I don't need a fancey expencive gun to carry every day. I have no problems with my bersa. I can empty booth clips in about 90sec, on target.

Both Magazines total something like what - 15 rounds? I think you'll find many of the folks here could do that, and holster inbetween each shot, and still have time left over. This isn't a shot at you, but as shooters we should strive to be the best we can be - no matter the hardware being used.


I don't shoot thousands of rounds a year. I don't live in town either, I have to deal with rattle snakes and copper heads about every day. my gun is in the field every day, If something happens to it I am not out much. Every time I need it, it works fine.

So in some sense, a pistol that you didn't need to worry about it's exposure to the elements affecting performance would be a good thing? If you carry a firearm around these snakes, then it is being used as some sort of protection - which means reliability and lethality are desirable, correct?


A kimber is a great looking gun don't get me wrong, The ones I have shot don't shoot any better than any thhing else.

I don't think Kimber is the brand to judge other firearms by.


Everybody has there own tastes, thats why they make different guns. I have shot a lot of different makes and modles. I have owned quite a few. The only one I regret Selling Is the first bersa I had. He offered me twice what I had in mine, I walked down three tables and picked up my sig, with no out of pocket money. Thats the only reason I sold mine.

I can understand this, but in any industry there are products that aren't the best on the market. Just because there are lots of choices, doesn't mean you have to step outside the proven winners.

I think the point most have on the Bersa 380 is that it really isn't that much less than a Glock, M&P, etc. And really, with the Shield rumored to be going down to $350 - there's no reason to get the larger, heavier, less lethal, less reliable, Bersa that has the same capacity. When you factor in the price of .380 vs 9mm, the "savings" on the Bersa 380 disappear real quick - even for gun owners who aren't "shooters".

I don't have a huge problem with the Bersa line, but more of a problem with the .380 round. I also don't know of a single thing a Bersa does better than it's competition besides initial entry price of admission and a manual of arms close the the M9 (a reason I'm told many out of the military gravitate to Bersa). My wife actually has a Bersa (don't ask :o ) , and they aren't half bad pistols. But I would never recommend it to her or anyone else as a carry gun. With the price of .380 lately, they don't even make sense a range plinker.

Again, I'd take a serious look at ballistic data before deciding to use .380 as a carry round. And honestly, I think if you decided to ever pick up something like a Glock 19, Glock 26, M&P compact, or M&P Shield - which is only about $100 more - you would be very surprised at how much you start to prefer those pistols. It's not just a reliability or ballistic issue - manufacturers like Glock have great ergonomics, nice control layouts, better sight options, better magazines (and cheaper), etc.

Happy hunting, dude. Hook me up with some snake skin and I'll figure out a way to turn it into a belt for myself. :D

[BWT]

I know people that are more comfortable using a sword for home defense than a pistol... (ETA: Let me rephrase this, they're more comfortable with the idea of using a sword versus having a firearm in the house, in one of the situations cost is a factor, the other, they just would rather have a sword.)

Because hacking a man with a sword is so much better than keeping a gun in the house.

That being said, swords can be bought for cheap, you gotta do what you gotta do, most people buy baseball bats honestly though.

Thank God I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford firearms, because I think coming at someone with a sword, even though you could probably come out ontop, would just be a terrible experience.

[PaulL]

This thread is a testament to the patience and friendly demeanor of the P-F.com membership.

You cannot logically justify with finance, performance, reliability, or aftermarket support the continued use of a Bersa .380. There are better options out there. Denying that is just being stubborn (which is fine - I'm stubborn, too sometimes).

I swear, though, I don't think the forum could be intentionally trolled any better with some of these posts...

[jmat]

Well, I have done a lot of reading on ballistac reports. I have also done lots of testing in the field. I have never been to a shooting range. I use to have lots of salvage and parts cars and trucks. My place was the shooting range for lots of people. All of the bllistac reports and training can't perpare you for the damage a firearm can do. I have an open mind and have shot most every caliber, with lots of different makes and modles. I have seen for my self how they can rip through a piece of steel. I have evean seen a .380 go through a car door, seat, floorbords and into the ground. I wouldnt want to carry anything less.
Steve s, yes I have shot several glocks, 9x19's 10mm. I could hit the target better if I just wing the gun at the target. Others had no problems, just not the gun for me. My dream gun was a .45, when I turned 21 that was the first one I got, a P90DC. It didn't take me long to sell it. then it was a blackhawk .45, I sold it too. I shot several different guns chambred in S&W .40, I got along well with them. I shot several 1911's, they are nice, I have had the chance to buy a few for a good price. The down fall to a .45 is you are limited to 8 rounds. My sig and bersa carry 13, thats plenty. I have one clip loaded with general target rounds for both and one with personal defence for both. I dought i need that many shots for personal defence. It is nice to target shoot with.
The main thing for me is that I can send a round down range and on target, every time I squeeze the trigger. If it won't do that I will get rid of it. Brand name dosen't matter to me. I don't need to show off with how much money I can spend. I nerver said I couldn't afford a "better" gun. Mine does the job I need it to do. After a good solid cleaning my bersa works good it hasent failed yet. I will keep using it untill it stopps working ro becomes unaccurate. When that happens I will repair it or replace it. I don't need to shoot a few thousand rounds to prove to me the gun will work when I need it. Any gun can fail at any time, you won't know when that is untill it happens. Is the same old story, chevy, vs ford,vs dodge, all that matters is what works for you.
.380 as personal defence, well IF I ever need to draw my wepon to defend my self, it will be at point blank range. IF my attcker is still comeing at me after 13 hallow points in the chest, I don't think a bigger gun would matter. If it's in a public place with others around, the collateral damage from a .45 will be a bad deal.
I am quite shure I will never be in a hollywood style shoot out. I don't think the brand name of my wepon will scare my attacker.

[LittleLebowski]

It's a magazine, not a clip.

It's not a brand name war; it's a quality and design war along with consideration for minimum acceptable caliber performance.

If it meets your expectations (which seems to be what you're getting at), good for you. Just don't try accuse this community of brand name snobbery because that is factually incorrect.

[jmat]

It's well stated here that without spending lots of money you can't have a good wepon or be able to use it. My opinion is different, I am being talked down to. That shure shows snobbery to me. I could really care less why you shoot what you do. Don't tell me that I am any less of a person because I don't shoot what you do. I don't spend the money you do. I can draw my wepon and hit were I aim just the same many others.
My opinion is different so I am a "troll" thats good I like that.
Nope, no snobbery here.
It's to bad that this has turned into beat down the guy with a different opinion.
Kinda funny.

[orionz06]

It's to bad that this has turned into beat down the guy with a different opinion.

Said opinion contradicts what many have seen over and over and over. If you got a good one that is great but I remember working a gun counter calling customers who bought them offering an in store credit if they wanted to return the gun and dealing with droves of them coming back because they would not shoot a box of ammo without issue.

[LittleLebowski]

It's well stated here that without spending lots of money you can't have a good wepon or be able to use it. My opinion is different, I am being talked down to. That shure shows snobbery to me. I could really care less why you shoot what you do. Don't tell me that I am any less of a person because I don't shoot what you do. I don't spend the money you do. I can draw my wepon and hit were I aim just the same many others.
My opinion is different so I am a "troll" thats good I like that.
Nope, no snobbery here.
It's to bad that this has turned into beat down the guy with a different opinion.
Kinda funny.

If you want to impress this forum, post some good times on standard drills with your gear. Folks here have ran the gamut of pistol models and if you ask for a recommendation for a pistol purchase on here, you'll get several brand and model recommendations so it isn't about snobbery. We expect a lot out of our pistols on this forum and we post the drills and training records to accompany said expectations. In other words, we expect folks who claim proficiency to post their times/standards backing said claim. This is a training and proficiency centric forum.

[jmat]

orionz06, I have herd that bersa guns have problems, thats why I started reading this. I am looking for info. both of my bersa's had problems when I got them, both were a simple fix, lack of maintents. I am happy so far with what I have. This is one of the best guns I have ever shot. I have foud this isn't the place to find info in these guns. I will contune to use this gun untill I have a reason not to. If I find that this wont work, I will carry my sig. I will keep trying different guns to add to my colection.
The problem I find with different forums, is that all the people that post tend to agree. thats why they post. Anyone that dosen't agree gets run off, they choose not to post and /or not read. With that said fairwell gentlmen. It has been fun.

[cclaxton]

I own a Bersa Thunder CC in Nickel. It is a very reliable gun, has nice features and looks nice and shoots well, has alloy frame, is lightweight, etc.
I found I needed to do a little smoothing of some edges as they are made kinda cheap.
Also, I didn't like the Mag safety, so I removed it.
It has a GREAT trigger, both DA and SA.
It has great sights in flourescent orange, and a orange chamber indicator.
It has a decent Safety and decocker.
I have no issues using the .380 HP bullet for self defense since it is truly about shot placement.
I found it works better with good gun grease rather than oil, and it tends to get dirtier more quickly due to the fixed-barrel design.
It is slim and easy to carry.
It shoots good, but has a significant recoil to consider due to small/light.
Put a nice pair of grips on it, and it's a nice looking gun, too. I have also seen ones that are blued with gold controls, and they look really nice too.

Negatives:
- I have found that it shoots great when I am slow and taking my time, but I quickly start losing accuracy when I shoot fast. I think that is due to a combination of: recoil, slim grip, my hand's design, and a bit of grip slippage as I pull the trigger.
- I bought extended magazine for it, but you can't get the full capacity, so I run it as 7+1.
- I see some wear on the alloy frame where the slide mechanism rides. This is not a problem unless you plan to put a lot of rounds through it.

I keep it in a hidden place near the front door for quick access, but it is not my primary gun.
I considered using it as a carry-gun due to size, but found the speed/accuracy issue to disconcerting. (Perhaps putting grip tape on it would help?)

It is a really good gun for the price and I do like to shoot it, but if I was to make a recommendation of a gun in this class I would go for the
Taurus Millenium Pro in 9mm.
CC

[TwoSqueeze]

The patience maintained in this thread is nothing short of amazing. I think I will keep my opinions to myself as to not feed the under bridge dwellers.

Cheers,
-Daryl

[PaulL]

This:


...It is a very reliable gun...

and this:


...This is not a problem unless you plan to put a lot of rounds through it...

seem to contradict.

How do you know it's reliable? How can you train with any regularity and not put a lot of rounds through it? How many is a lot? Did it go 2,000 rounds malfunction-free?

[cclaxton]

This:
and this:
seem to contradict.
How do you know it's reliable? How can you train with any regularity and not put a lot of rounds through it? How many is a lot? Did it go 2,000 rounds malfunction-free?

Well, there's reliability...then there's life expectancy or endurance. I think you are talking about life expectancy.
I have put probably 500 FMJ and 150 HP rounds thorugh the gun and it has only once had a FTE. I call that very reliable.
They are not contradictory statements.
I don't think you have to run a gun 2000 rounds to call it reliable...especially a gun like the Bersa Thunder.
But I am not expecting it to be a SIG or a CZ.
CC

[PaulL]

I guess I just don't get it.


I surround myself with quality things and quality people. I get diarrhea and a headache trying to understand why anyone would do anything less. If you can't afford quality things, wait until you can, and be proud of yourself for it. I've never had to buy a low-quality firearm because a high-quality one always turned up at the right price if I was patient. I know multiple people who've had the same experience, so it's not just me. If you've ended up with a low-quality firearm though ignorance and laziness, then you've got another set of problems altogether...


This logic also applies to cars, women, food, marital aids, etc.

[TGS]

I guess I just don't get it.


I surround myself with quality things and quality people. I get diarrhea and a headache trying to understand why anyone would do anything less. If you can't afford quality things, wait until you can, and be proud of yourself for it. I've never had to buy a low-quality firearm because a high-quality one always turned up at the right price if I was patient. I know multiple people who've had the same experience, so it's not just me. If you've ended up with a low-quality firearm though ignorance and laziness, then you've got another set of problems altogether...


This logic also applies to cars, women, food, marital aids, etc.



Well, you should be very proud of yourself, sport!

[digiadaamore]

Well, there's reliability...then there's life expectancy or endurance. I think you are talking about life expectancy.
I have put probably 500 FMJ and 150 HP rounds thorugh the gun and it has only once had a FTE. I call that very reliable.
They are not contradictory statements.
I don't think you have to run a gun 2000 rounds to call it reliable...especially a gun like the Bersa Thunder.
But I am not expecting it to be a SIG or a CZ.
CC

now heres the funny thing the two companies you mention are generally regarded as not being good enough, atleast not anymore for sig

[PaulL]

Well, you should be very proud of yourself, sport!

Take it however you want. You don't know me, so you perceive it as a soapbox. I just thought I'd throw it out there that it is possible to get good quality gear rather than buy junk and try to justify it on the internet to people who know better.

Maybe I should have just put it that way in the first place so my personal experience wouldn't be mistaken for bragging, or a sermon, or whatever.

[LittleLebowski]

Civility. Strive for it.

[Lomshek]

orionz06, I have herd that bersa guns have problems, thats why I started reading this. I am looking for info. both of my bersa's had problems when I got them, both were a simple fix, lack of maintents. I am happy so far with what I have. This is one of the best guns I have ever shot. I have foud this isn't the place to find info in these guns. I will contune to use this gun untill I have a reason not to. If I find that this wont work, I will carry my sig. I will keep trying different guns to add to my colection.
The problem I find with different forums, is that all the people that post tend to agree. thats why they post. Anyone that dosen't agree gets run off, they choose not to post and /or not read. With that said fairwell gentlmen. It has been fun.

Yep, the experts are a bunch of jackwagons. Why would they offer their opinion to people who ask for their opinion because they are experts? That's just crazy talk.

They haven't tested just about every option and found what works. That wouldn't be why the experts tend to agree a lot. The experts probably just get paid a kickback for every gun they pimp from "those" brands.

I can see where that kind of behavior would run folks off who ask for an opinion and don't get their choices vindicated. If you wanted an honest opinion you would have asked for it. Really you just wanted someone to agree with your choices. Those rude bastards.

[cclaxton]

now heres the funny thing the two companies you mention are generally regarded as not being good enough, atleast not anymore for sig

My Cz75 is the most reliable gun I know of. I never have failures when I use brass ammo unless the round itself was defective. I shoot an IDPA match every week and practice 1-2 times weekly, and can't remember the last time I had a malfunction. I remember buying some Aguila 9mm brass that the Cz didn't like (occasional FTF), but that was 8 months ago, and never buy Aguila. I shoot American Eagle or Lawman 147gr FMJ for IDPA matches and FreedomMunitions and Jack Ross reloaded 115gr for practice. I had one dud in the past 4000 rounds.

I don't own a Sig, but I know a number of IDPA shooters who swear by their reliability.

I have seen more malfunctions with 1911's and Glocks in IDPA matches. In all fairness, I think most of the Glock malfunctions are related to those who reload and tinker with their guns. For the 1911's...they are just fussy...keep them clean and lubed and use the correct/good mags, and they are good. (At least that the experience I have with my 1911.)

Also, for others here: I don't claim to be an expert. I share my experience and my knowlege and those of my shooting buddies.

One thing about the gun-owner community is that everybody has a unique opinion on guns, lubrication, reloading, etc. That is what makes it so interesting to share.
CC