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jmjames
04-19-2012, 07:54 PM
Over the weekend, a friend of mine and I went hunting. I'd like to do a lot more hunting, and if I get to, it will most likely be with him since he has a good amount of hunting land.

Along the ride, we were talking guns, and AR's came up. I mentioned that I really like how you can do a lot of things with ARs, including hunting. He was appalled at the idea, "that gun's only meant for one thing, killing people". He seemed practically offended that anyone would even think about pointing an AR pattern rifle at an animal.

Since I'd like to be doing more hunting and it sounds like if I want to go with him, does anyone have suggestions for a "non-threatening" semi-auto rifle for hunting? I'd be looking to do anything from coyotes to hogs to deer, so I think that anything bigger than .223 and up to .308 makes sense.

I think that the "requirements" would be:

* No pistol grip
* No protruding magazine, or *barely* protruding (he used the term "banana clip" with disgust...)
* Optic ready
* Wood stock if possible

Right now, I'm considering the Remington 750 and the Ruger Mini-30, since I really do not want to spend too much money on this. I'm not sure if I could slip an SKS or a Saiga in the "Sporter" configuration by him or not. I suppose I could try a bolt action, but considering that I am pretty new to the world of hunting, I really would want faster followup shots if possible.

Alternatively, if anyone knows of a good place that I could go hunting in the South Carolina midlands, that'll work too (and no, not joking...)... ;)

J.Ja

orionz06
04-19-2012, 07:56 PM
Are there magazine limits?

jmjames
04-19-2012, 07:58 PM
Are there magazine limits?

Not on the legal side of things, but I do think that if anything bigger than a 5 rounder was hanging down, he'd have an issue with it.

He said to me, "why don't you just get a BAR?" (that's what he shoots) I guess he hasn't seen what they are priced at lately...

J.Ja

orionz06
04-19-2012, 07:58 PM
A Larue PredatAR in .308 and a new friend?

rob_s
04-19-2012, 07:59 PM
From the little bit I know about wooden guns, I like what the Winchester Model 70 Classic brings to the table. Controlled-round feed, 5 round magazine, just about any functional caliber you can think of... not sure what more you could want in a hunting rifle. I bought the Featherweight Compact which turned out to be too small for me, so if I re-buy I'll get the standard Featherweight.

More here.

http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/projects---guns/winchester-model-70

jstyer
04-19-2012, 08:04 PM
Tell him to harden the f*** up and open his freaking mind....

But in all seriousness, maybe you could be the friend that helps guide him to the realization that these guns are no different and no more deadly than any other "safe looking" semi auto weapon. This is a pretty close relative to the stereotypes that call for the banning of these "evil looking" rifles that have no other purpose other than to gun down law-enforcement officers and children... In a non-confrontational way try and find out why he thinks his BAR is so very different from an AR? Try and acclimate him to the idea and have some open discussion and you might be the one that changes his mind on the subject.

And on the other hand... I know the Hunting BAR's of today are a far cry from the open-bolt death machines of yester-years, but it may interest your friend to know that the idea for his BAR namesake started life as a squad automatic weapon designed specifically for killin' some nazees (or huns).

Shokr21
04-19-2012, 08:10 PM
I don't understand, will he not allow you to hunt with him if you are using an AR pattern rifle?

I'd tell him if he can list the pro's and con's of an AR in a hunting role logically and the con's outweigh the pro's you'll look into something else.

Lightweight, accurate, even with a 10/20 round mag or hell 30 round mag, my AR is lighter than my buddies hunting lever/bolt actions. They are slowly coming to the light. But we don't get to hunt to often with rifles as Iowa is a shotgun state for deer unless you are in the bottom two tiers of counties.

If he's just hating on AR's cuz he's a fudd I say to hell with him, he's obviously not much of a friend if he can't respect that you prefer a different platform than him.

Buying a different platform to conform and make him happy to me is ludicrous.

jmjames
04-19-2012, 08:12 PM
From the little bit I know about wooden guns, I like what the Winchester Model 70 Classic brings to the table. Controlled-round feed, 5 round magazine, just about any functional caliber you can think of... not sure what more you could want in a hunting rifle. I bought the Featherweight Compact which turned out to be too small for me, so if I re-buy I'll get the standard Featherweight.

More here.

http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/projects---guns/winchester-model-70

If I go bolt action, it would either be a Winchester 70 or a Remington 700.

J.Ja

jmjames
04-19-2012, 08:19 PM
In terms of trying to change his mind... not happening. He is the most stubborn person I know, I learned a long time ago that trying to change his opinion is just asking for an argument, no matter how it's done. And I'm the kind of guy who can have a rational, sane, friendly conversation about politics on Facebook, and I know not to bother changing his mind.

The basic gist is that if I want to go hunting on his land with him, I should show up with something that looks like what his granddad taught him to shoot with...

J.Ja

LittleLebowski
04-19-2012, 08:35 PM
20" Remington 700.

jmjames
04-19-2012, 09:38 PM
20" Remington 700.

I have almost bought a 700 SPS Tactical or 700P LTR a number of times in the last year or two...

J.Ja

GJM
04-19-2012, 09:49 PM
It is not just a marketing slogan that the model 70 Winchester is the rifleman's rifle. If you want to class the joint up, and have a wonderful rifle at a reasonable cost, in a heart beat I would buy a Pre-64 model 70 in .30-06, add a Leupold variable scope, install a third stud, buy a Langlois Ching sling, possibly shorten the length of pull while installing a different recoil pad and carry on.

jmjames
04-19-2012, 09:59 PM
Other than the Winchester 70 and the Remington 700, which are basically my "fallback" choices as I see it (because I'd prefer a semi-auto), are there any semi-auto guns out there that make sense for this?

No comments good, bad, or indifferent on the Mini 30? I know it's not ideal (the safety for starters), but it does seem to fit the bill from where I sit.

I should probably throw this out there too, I don't plan on hunting a lot, simply due to time constraints, but if I do, I'd be willing/able to either get access on my own (and render this topic irrelevant) and/or spend more on a better rifle.

So I'm perfectly fine with a "hardly ideal" rifle, I'm just trying to get my feet wet at this point, and I either want something that if it turns out I don't get to hunt much I can enjoy at the range and learn with there, or something so cheap and/or easily resold that I don't end up feeling like I "wasted my money".

J.Ja

GJM
04-19-2012, 10:05 PM
Compared to a Colt or equivalent quality AR, the semi-auto sporting rifles you are considering are basically junk.

jmjames
04-19-2012, 10:35 PM
Compared to a Colt or equivalent quality AR, the semi-auto sporting rifles you are considering are basically junk.

Anything in particular? I know that the Ruger Mini's are not well regarded, but what I've heard is more of that vague "eh, they aren't good" than actual, specific "the mags do not release properly" or "likely to miss the broad side of a barn".

But... the feedback definitely seems to be saying, "buy one of the two quality bolt actions on the market".

J.Ja

Pennzoil
04-19-2012, 10:36 PM
I'd go with the Winchester and avoid both the Remington 700/mini 30. My Remington 700 has been a disappointment with unreliable feeding and being picky accuracy wise with most hunting ammunition. I had a mini 14 and personally wouldn't go the mini 30 route either for similar reasons.

jmjames
04-19-2012, 10:40 PM
I'd go with the Winchester and avoid both the Remington 700/mini 30. My Remington 700 has been a disappointment with unreliable feeding and being picky accuracy wise with most hunting ammunition. I had a mini 14 and personally wouldn't go the mini 30 route either for similar reasons.

The Remington 700, or 750? Just want to confirm, because I've mentioned both now...

Also, your 700, about when did you buy it? My suspicion has been that Remington's quality has dropped since the big buyout/consolidation, based on comparing older 870's to newer ones.

J.Ja

bofe954
04-19-2012, 10:44 PM
You could look around for used rifle at your LGS, sporting goods stores. Bolt action hunting rifles tend to have poor resale value and are shot very little.

How about a lever? You could get a pre 64 model 94 for $500, or a modern one (or Marlin 336) for $300-$350.

I haven't found fast repeat shots to be real valuable hunting. Generally you get one shot, and that's it, but you don't mention much about what/how you're hunting.

Getting a 30-30 or a 7.63X39 will limit you on type of game and range. 308, or 30-06 pretty much gets you anything in North America.

Pennzoil
04-19-2012, 11:05 PM
Remington 700 and I got it in 2009 never handled a 750. I've seen the same decline in quality levels in 870's like you mentioned. I was less then happy when I measured the throat on my 700 to work up some loads. Factory ammo has to make a big jump to the lands and hand loads with a COL that minimizes the jump won't fit in the magazine.

I found out later Remington makes the throat on the generous size for "variations in factory ammunition." There is a lot of good info out on the interwebs regarding Remington's chamber/throat on the web by smarter people then me so may want to google it. Wish I did before I picked mine up.....

jmjames
04-19-2012, 11:14 PM
You could look around for used rifle at your LGS, sporting goods stores. Bolt action hunting rifles tend to have poor resale value and are shot very little.

How about a lever? You could get a pre 64 model 94 for $500, or a modern one (or Marlin 336) for $300-$350.

I haven't found fast repeat shots to be real valuable hunting. Generally you get one shot, and that's it, but you don't mention much about what/how you're hunting.

Getting a 30-30 or a 7.63X39 will limit you on type of game and range. 308, or 30-06 pretty much gets you anything in North America.

I had a chance over the summer to buy a used Model 70 in .30-06 for under $500, with scope... I probably should have done it! :)

The problem is, in my area, there are two kinds of LGS's: the places where folks like me shop... and the places where folks like my friend who hates EBRs hunts. The former are well priced on used stuff, but do not have much stock of used hunting guns. The latter are RIDICULOUSLY overpriced (I can often find the same gun NEW for less money than they want for used!). All the same, I'll swing by "the usual suspects" tomorrow, since I'll be out and about anyways.

I haven't thought about a lever at all, honestly. That is an option to consider. Also, good to know about the second shot.

For what I'm looking at doing, every local hunter I've talked to agrees that an intermediate round is ample, and the way I see it, if I'm into it enough that whatever gun I have isn't right, I'll go get the right one for my needs at that time.

J.Ja

jmjames
04-19-2012, 11:23 PM
Remington 700 and I got it in 2009 never handled a 750. I've seen the same decline in quality levels in 870's like you mentioned. I was less then happy when I measured the throat on my 700 to work up some loads. Factory ammo has to make a big jump to the lands and hand loads with a COL that minimizes the jump won't fit in the magazine.

I found out later Remington makes the throat on the generous size for "variations in factory ammunition." There is a lot of good info out on the interwebs regarding Remington's chamber/throat on the web by smarter people then me so may want to google it. Wish I did before I picked mine up.....

This is excellent information to know about, thanks! I wonder if that's ALL 700's, or just specific models.

I compared a used 870 that looked like it was used in the Battle of Verdun and every war since to a new 870, it was night and day.

J.Ja

JRL
04-20-2012, 01:34 AM
Other than the Winchester 70 and the Remington 700, which are basically my "fallback" choices as I see it (because I'd prefer a semi-auto), are there any semi-auto guns out there that make sense for this?

...

So I'm perfectly fine with a "hardly ideal" rifle, I'm just trying to get my feet wet at this point, and I either want something that if it turns out I don't get to hunt much I can enjoy at the range and learn with there, or something so cheap and/or easily resold that I don't end up feeling like I "wasted my money".

J.Ja

What about an M14/M1A? :D
You could get a 5 round mag for hunting, and still have a gun for the range.
It's not exactly cheap but I think they are pretty cool. With a wood stock it wouldn't look bad at all, and certainly not too tactical.

rob_s
04-20-2012, 02:24 AM
FWIW, the Remington 700 is push feed, regardless of old or new, and the controlled-round-feed of the Winchester is considered superior by those that know more than me.

GJM
04-20-2012, 02:53 AM
Unless you have a very special LGS, they are not the place to buy Pre 64 model 70 rifles. Shop Gunbroker or GunsAmerica.

Pre 64 rifles hold their value, and generally appreciate, as they are not made anymore, and are of a limited quantity. There are differences between Pre 64 model 70's and the recent controlled feed model 70's that make the Pre 64 rifles more desirable.

rob_s
04-20-2012, 03:56 AM
Unless you have a very special LGS, they are not the place to buy Pre 64 model 70 rifles. Shop Gunbroker or GunsAmerica.

Pre 64 rifles hold their value, and generally appreciate, as they are not made anymore, and are of a limited quantity. There are differences between Pre 64 model 70's and the recent controlled feed model 70's that make the Pre 64 rifles more desirable.

There are, but IMO they are minimal and not worth the effort or expense involved with chasing around the collector's market for a true pre-'64. For every guy that's buying one because it's "better" there are 99 more buying them because they are rare, or expensive, or desirable. Those 99 are making the guns more expensive for no reason, and making them harder to find.

The differences are unlikely to matter for all but the most discerning buyer, and someone in the OP's position is much better served just ordering the current-production gun that fits his needs (caliber, material, barrel length, stock type).

jmjames
04-20-2012, 06:50 AM
What about an M14/M1A? :D
You could get a 5 round mag for hunting, and still have a gun for the range.
It's not exactly cheap but I think they are pretty cool. With a wood stock it wouldn't look bad at all, and certainly not too tactical.

I've looked at the Springfield "Scout" model a lot, but even with synthetic furniture it weighs an awful lot, and the scope mounting options are poor. The new CASV mount looks promising, but even then, it's $150. I'd be looking at a $1,500 total cost for a heavy gun that doesn't have much going for it (for this purpose), other than being a semi-auto in .308 with a wood, Monte Carlo stock. There was a really good discussion over at Lightfighter about the M14/M1A that someone here (Doc, I think) pointed me to... if you have any doubts about that platform, the thread will confirm them and then some... :(

J.Ja

jmjames
04-20-2012, 06:53 AM
Unless you have a very special LGS, they are not the place to buy Pre 64 model 70 rifles. Shop Gunbroker or GunsAmerica.

Pre 64 rifles hold their value, and generally appreciate, as they are not made anymore, and are of a limited quantity. There are differences between Pre 64 model 70's and the recent controlled feed model 70's that make the Pre 64 rifles more desirable.

Didn't Winchester start using the pre-64 action feed again?

From their site:

"Today's Model 70 has the all new M.O.A.™ Trigger System, improved fit and finish and enhanced accuracy to go along with its classic Pre-’64 controlled round feeding, Three-Position Safety and solid, sure handling. The M.O.A. Trigger helps the model 70 deliver the extreme accuracy benchmark 1" group at 100 yards. It’s what you deserve in your rifle."

I actually saw a 1953 pre-64 70 Featherweight on Gunbroker for $645 last night, with scope, in .308. That's not an awful deal, and certainly well within my budget.

J.Ja

jstyer
04-20-2012, 06:59 AM
I had a chance to watch a 20" Tikka CTR compact tactical rifle) in 308 in February.

No lie, that little gun shot 3/8" at 100 yards. Literally blew me away. Totally changed my perception on short barrel precision rifles. Even out to 400 it was throwing some 185 grain handloads with astonishing accuracy. I genuinely didn't think those short barreled guns could be as accurate as I was seeing.

Tikka's are known to have screaming barrels, and they have a good trigger and detachable mags out of the box. Having neither, I'd go with Tikka in a mili-second.

GJM
04-20-2012, 07:22 AM
Most all my hunting rifles are built on Pre-64 actions. Pre 64 actions have better triggers, better barrels making for a more accurate rifle, and have feed lips that are integral to the action, unlike the recent controlled feed actions, making for a better feeding rifle. Pre 64 model 70's in .06 are readily available at a modest or no premium over a classic (recent manufacture) model 70.

Just did a quick GB search, and while they are crazy expensive ones, there are a number that can be bought reasonably:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Bolt-Action-Rifles/BI.aspx?Keywords=Pre+64+.30-06

jmjames
04-20-2012, 07:28 AM
I had a chance to watch a 20" Tikka CTR compact tactical rifle) in 308 in February.

No lie, that little gun shot 3/8" at 100 yards. Literally blew me away. Totally changed my perception on short barrel precision rifles. Even out to 400 it was throwing some 185 grain handloads with astonishing accuracy. I genuinely didn't think those short barreled guns could be as accurate as I was seeing.

Tikka's are known to have screaming barrels, and they have a good trigger and detachable mags out of the box. Having neither, I'd go with Tikka in a mili-second.

I've heard vaguely good things about Tikka's in the past, but I never looked into them much. I do like that they have detachable magazines. I've read from some seemingly knowledgable folks that there are issues with the recoil lugs getting loose after time on the models with high powered loads.

J.Ja

WDW
04-20-2012, 07:57 AM
Get a 20" Rem. 700 in .308, throw out the cheapo stock, replace it with a B&C bedded stock, throw a Leupold VX-I 3-9x40 on top w/leupold mounts and enjoy.

WDW
04-20-2012, 08:01 AM
As a life long hunter, I will tell you that will rarely get a follow up shot and the speed you will have with a ruger mini 30 does not balance the accuracy you will gain with a 700. Extremely fasts follow ups are possible with a bolt gun.

ACP230
04-20-2012, 08:50 AM
My first good deer rifle was a Browning BAR. It's still a good choice. Mine is in .30-06 but there is a range of calibers, including some magnums, available.
Mine shot inside an inch at 100 yards off the bench the last time I sighted it in. Ammo was warmer reloads with H4895 and Remington Core-Lokt 150 grain pointed soft points.
With Remington factory ammo with the same bullet it shoots a consistent inch and an eighth.

My favorite deer rifle is a Ruger 77RL in .250 Savage. Accurate, light to carry (6.5 pounds with scope an sling) tang safety like my grouse gun, and the .250 is a quick killer on deer.
Lots of Ruger and Savage bolt guns available. CDNN in Texas has a lot of them on sale in every new catalog.

I own an M1A, and AR and a Garand. Have only hunted with the Garand, but have no problems with folks who hunt with those types of rifles.

jwperry
04-20-2012, 10:21 AM
Being the cheapskate hunter I am, have you thought about other com-bloc surplus rifles or a slug-gun? Also, what kind of hunting are you planning on (stalking, sitting a tree stand, sitting in a blind) and what are your requirements for optics? What are your foreseeable distances to shoot?
I wouldn't even consider a Mini-30 at their price point. An SKS in the original wood stock (sans any bayonet) looks like any innocent rifle and is exactly what you described. Effective range is out to about 120 yards (I'm sure the x39 round is capable of more, further out, but mechanical accuracy of offhand shoots with open sights limits you).
My current hog-slaying rifle is a Soviet M44; 5 round magazine, bolt action and can kill anything on 4 legs in North America with a 185gr Lapua soft tip.

jmjames
04-20-2012, 10:45 AM
Being the cheapskate hunter I am, have you thought about other com-bloc surplus rifles or a slug-gun? Also, what kind of hunting are you planning on (stalking, sitting a tree stand, sitting in a blind) and what are your requirements for optics? What are your foreseeable distances to shoot?
I wouldn't even consider a Mini-30 at their price point. An SKS in the original wood stock (sans any bayonet) looks like any innocent rifle and is exactly what you described. Effective range is out to about 120 yards (I'm sure the x39 round is capable of more, further out, but mechanical accuracy of offhand shoots with open sights limits you).
My current hog-slaying rifle is a Soviet M44; 5 round magazine, bolt action and can kill anything on 4 legs in North America with a 185gr Lapua soft tip.

Other than the SKS and Mosin-Nagant, I couldn't think of any Eastern rifles that made sense for this. Honestly, I would have been happy using an AK or an VZ58. The SKS has that top gas tube which brings the taller front sight, and makes it look AK-ish... I know, it's silly, but that's the kind of thing that my friend will pick up on, otherwise I'd consider a Saiga 308 or VEPR 308 and leave it in the sporter configuration.

His hunting is mostly sitting in a deer stand, and the range that he takes deer is typically 100 - 150 yards, which puts a slug gun out of the running (otherwise I'd just take my shotgun and call it a day).

For optics, I'd probably be putting a mid-price 3x - 9x or 1x - 4x on it. Millet has a 1 - 4 with a donut & dot that looks really nice for the ranges I'd be talking about, and is well priced. I don't need a super scope or anything!

J.Ja

secondstoryguy
04-20-2012, 10:57 AM
Just buy a short, light bolt gun in .308 and be done with it. Animals tend to haul ass after you break the first shot and most run very fast. It's very likely that you will not get a second shot and if you need one a bolt gun can be run almost as fast as a semi. I've gone 3-3 on hogs out of a pack with a bolt gun and generally bring home more game than almost everyone I hunt with. The triggers on bolt guns tend to be much better than that of semis too. Now if I was going to do hog eradication out of a helicopter a semi might work better but for generally hunting a bolt gun will cover all your bases.

Here's a couple of videos of some guys who know how to run bolt guns:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/12/german-boar-hunter-shows-rapid-fire-skills-with-sauer-202/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pslzMze9rNk

jmjames
04-20-2012, 11:26 AM
I saw a 700 SPS Tactical for $549 today at my LGS. Not sure if it was used or a demo model, because they had a new one for $649 (which is the expected price new).

Also looking at the Savage 10 Scout, and the Ruger Gunsite Scout. Anyone with experiences on them? I like the as possibilities because they are lightweight and have the 20" and 16" barrels, respectively, and detachable box magazines which I see as useful on the whole.

J.Ja

secondstoryguy
04-20-2012, 12:03 PM
Any one of those would work great. Not a big fan of heavy barrels on my hunting rifles. The Remington LTRs would be the exception as although they are heavy barreled they are a lighter contour and it keeps the weight down. The Savage's are a good value and generally shoot very well as a whole. The accutrigger type trigger works well. I personally don't care for removable magazines on my bolt guns. One more thing to loose and a lot of them sit right where the balance point of the gun is which makes them clumsy to tote around. Of savages offerings I really like the Model 11 Hog Hunter in .308.

GJM
04-20-2012, 12:14 PM
Detachable box magazines are fun on a game gun, but undesirable on a hunting rifle.

jmjames
04-20-2012, 12:26 PM
Detachable box magazines are fun on a game gun, but undesirable on a hunting rifle.

On the Savage Scout, it is flush with the stock, does that make a difference to make it less undesirable?

J.Ja

GJM
04-20-2012, 12:48 PM
Here are the main problems with a DBM:

They can fall out, they can degrade the operation of the bolt action being worked briskly, they are difficult to impossible to top off a round at a time, they are bulky to carry as a spare on the rifle, and they become a single point failure risk -- as in lose your DBM and you now have a single shot rifle. I have carried a rifle with a DBM on one week long backpack elk hunt, and will never seriously hunt animals with a DBM equipped rifle again.

NCMedic
04-20-2012, 12:49 PM
Buy the original "assault rifle"... A lever action rifle... You probably can get into a nice Marlin 336 30/30 for under $500...

Sent from this... Using that...

jmjames
04-20-2012, 12:54 PM
Here are the main problems with a DBM:

They can fall out, they can degrade the operation of the bolt action being worked briskly, they are difficult to impossible to top off a round at a time, they are bulky to carry as a spare on the rifle, and they become a single point failure risk -- as in lose your DBM and you now have a single shot rifle. I have carried a rifle with a DBM on one week long backpack elk hunt, and will never seriously hunt animals with a DBM equipped rifle again.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks! Since my plan is hunting and the occasional range trip, not gun games or covering a team from a rooftop, I think it's fair to say that there's no compelling reason for the DBM other than "nice to have the option".

It really does sound like a Remington 700 (SPS Tactical or 700P LTR) or Winchester 70 (not sure on the model yet) is in my future, just need to pick between the two and find one at a good price.

J.Ja

LHS
04-20-2012, 12:55 PM
My first thought is to tell your "friend" to kiss off. The modern hunting bolt gun evolved from the Kar98, which was designed to kill people. His argument is retarded. Find other land, hunt with what you want.

That said, if you really want a non-AR, I'd go with a good bolt or lever gun over any of the "sporting" semis. A Ruger 77 compact in '308 should do nicely.

GJM
04-20-2012, 04:49 PM
It really does sound like a Remington 700 (SPS Tactical or 700P LTR) or Winchester 70 (not sure on the model yet) is in my future, just need to pick between the two and find one at a good price.

J.Ja

Remington LTR is a terrific precision rifle, and I have had two for years -- both great shooters.

In my experience, a Remington is a poor alternative to a model 70 in the hunting field. I have had triggers freeze and fail to fire in cold weather, the two position safety does not lock the bolt which can be a problem in thick cover, and I have seen multiple Remington rifles fail to feed when the bolt is worked vigorously during shots on animals.

You might consider perusing some bolt action rifle specific forums, as the superiority of the model 70/Mauser action, and the attributes of a proper, practical hunting rifle are more or less settled science.

Al T.
04-20-2012, 06:03 PM
Palmetto on BRR has a used Marlin 336 for $225. Looks like someone refinished the stock (forgot to stain) and the scope is probably junk, but the price is right, trigger is OK and it's an older smooth Marlin.

secondstoryguy
04-20-2012, 07:59 PM
Remington LTR is a terrific precision rifle, and I have had two for years -- both great shooters.

In my experience, a Remington is a poor alternative to a model 70 in the hunting field. I have had triggers freeze and fail to fire in cold weather, the two position safety does not lock the bolt which can be a problem in thick cover, and I have seen multiple Remington rifles fail to feed when the bolt is worked vigorously during shots on animals.

You might consider perusing some bolt action rifle specific forums, as the superiority of the model 70/Mauser action, and the attributes of a proper, practical hunting rifle are more or less settled science.

This is some really good advice.

LittleLebowski
04-20-2012, 09:30 PM
I don't doubt the advice on the Remingtons failing but too many 8541s/0317s I know and respect swear by the design.

tmoore912
04-20-2012, 09:50 PM
Lot's of good information in this thread. Some rifles I have enjoyed hunting with all over Georgia are:

Ruger M77 .270 I really love this gun because I have had it since I was a teenager. Put a custom Timney trigger in it, and it's a sharp shooter.

Tikka Synthetic Stock .270 WSM Awesome all weather gun, and the drop out mag is very convenient and a nice safety feature.

Remington 700 .308

Marlin 1895 Guide Gun in .45-70 When it absolutely has to drop when shot.:D (This gun shoots less than MOA at 100 yards)

"The Original Assault Rifle" Marlin 336 Lever gun in .30-30 I like hunting in the woods, so I barely ever have a shot over 100 yards. This gun is very accurate out to 200 yards though. I hunt more deer and hogs with this rifle than any others I have. You can routinely find these guns in Pawn Shops a Gun Stores under $300 - 250.

jmjames
04-20-2012, 09:57 PM
Palmetto on BRR has a used Marlin 336 for $225. Looks like someone refinished the stock (forgot to stain) and the scope is probably junk, but the price is right, trigger is OK and it's an older smooth Marlin.

Hey, that sounds like an excuse for me to do a stock finishing project, you know those don't scare me. :D

I was right by there today when I was looking at other shops (I hit Shooter's Choice, where I saw the 700 SPS Tactical for $549 and Lexington Pawn & Gun, which had nothing...), but I didn't poke my head it.

I'm loving that price. That's like "Ruger 10/22" price. I will do my best to swing by on Monday and check it out, thanks!

J.Ja

secondstoryguy
04-20-2012, 10:14 PM
700s arn't all bad, especially when worked over by someone who knows what they are doing(like the guys in Quantico). I've personally seen two Rem 700 bolt handles fail (fall off) on newer production rifles...they are just sweated(brazed) on. That combined with Remintons tiny little thumbnail of an extractor tha has trouble with even lightly stuck cartridges makes me lean towards other brands. The armed forces and armorers love the 700 because the cylindrical reciever makes it cheap and easy to build up/make accurate rifle, not because it's the best of the bolt guns. Remington is laughing all the way to the bank with its gov contracts, you wouldn't believe what they are charging for the new M24 contract rifles...the us military is getting ripped off big time. If you want a military type precision bolt gun thats as tought as nails, Accuracy International's rifles are the Glocks of the military precision rifle world...worlds better than the Remintons. If you want a practical rifle that's tough as nails and dead reliable in a variety of conditions go with a pre-64 type Winchester.

LittleLebowski
04-20-2012, 10:31 PM
Glocks are cheap, AIs are not.

secondstoryguy
04-20-2012, 11:51 PM
Yea, AIs definitely arn't cheap. But they are durable, reliable and modular as far as parts go.

Chuck Haggard
04-21-2012, 01:28 AM
Detachable box magazines are fun on a game gun, but undesirable on a hunting rifle.


I completely disagree. I have flush to the stock detachable boxes on both of my Savage .308s (one is my Scout rifle), makes it really easy to load and unload when getting in and out of the truck at the hunting site, which may happen a few times depending on how things are going.



I got back into deer hunting with a 20 barreled Savage .308 that I picked up on a whim, it's one of those package deals from Cabela's with a no-name 3X9X40 scope, out of the box with 150gr Federal SP from Wal Mart it is a no BS five shot group inch and a half gun, at the hundred yard line from prone off of my ruck, nine days a week (I did end up upgrading the scope after awhile though).
I have shot a number of Savage bolt guns, I have yet to meet one that won't group.


The Ruger 77 mkII is also a good choice in my experience.

Al T.
04-21-2012, 07:12 AM
J.Ja, if you want the Marlin, holler and I'll have them put it in the back.

I too am a Savage fan for bolt guns. IMHO and IME, the M700 usually needs a trigger replacement to run right. I've also busted a bolt handle on a Remington.

GJM
04-21-2012, 07:16 AM
Both the Ruger and Savage are fine hobbyist grade hunting rifles, and for truck hunting deer as you describe, if there is a requirement to completely unload, the DBM may be handy. Savage makes a Scout, and in the Gunsite practical rifle world, they have not proven durable. Go hunting around the world, either dangerous game, backpack hunts, or what guide/professional hunters carry, and you would be hard pressed to find a Ruger, Savage or any rifle with a DBM.

As regards accuracy, accuracy is not the sole requirement for a hard use hunting rifle. If it was the sole requirement, all hunting rifles would be on a Remington action, since their action is conducive to making an accurate hunting rifle.

rob_s
04-21-2012, 07:48 AM
Both the Ruger and Savage are fine hobbyist grade hunting rifles, and for truck hunting deer as you describe, if there is a requirement to completely unload, the DBM may be handy. Savage makes a Scout, and in the Gunsite practical rifle world, they have not proven durable. Go hunting around the world, either dangerous game, backpack hunts, or what guide/professional hunters carry, and you would be hard pressed to find a Ruger, Savage or any rifle with a DBM.

As regards accuracy, accuracy is not the sole requirement for a hard use hunting rifle. If it was the sole requirement, all hunting rifles would be on a Remington action, since their action is conducive to making an accurate hunting rifle.

I'm no SME on this, but I agree with all of the above because when I ask those that are, the M70 is what everyone comes back to over and over again. A Kimber is sometimes mentioned as a distant second. Rugers, Savages, etc. are sometimes mentioned under the caveat of "...for the money", but nowdays some of them aren't even inexpensive so there goes that.

SteveB
04-21-2012, 08:57 AM
Years of buying, shooting and selling bolt rifles have convinced me that the pre-64 Model 70 is the gold standard. The 70 action, for all the reasons GJM described, is rock solid dependable. I'm at the point now where I want all my rifles to be the same. Whether I'm deer hunting down the road with a .30-06, or going to Africa later this year with a .375, my serious hunting rifles will be pre-64 Model 70 actions, and will feel and work exactly the same way. Outstanding triggers, very smooth bolt actions, 3-position safeties, perfect feed reliability. I've had real accurate rifles fail me in the field. For instance, a Model 700 LTR, shot .5 MOA out of the box, failed to extract a case on two occasions. No big deal at the range, but a problem when you're miles from nowhere. Pre-64's can be great values. I recently bought a 1960 .30-06 at a local shop for $795, installed some Talley bases and a scope and got 3/4" at 100 with Federal Hi-Shok soft points. Silky smooth action and trigger, made in America by craftsmen who took pride in their work. You're not just buying a rifle when you get one of these.

jmjames
04-21-2012, 04:26 PM
J.Ja, if you want the Marlin, holler and I'll have them put it in the back.

I too am a Savage fan for bolt guns. IMHO and IME, the M700 usually needs a trigger replacement to run right. I've also busted a bolt handle on a Remington.

Al - Just took a look at it today... I was in the area. I like it. Light & short. If you say that 30-30 will take SC deer & hog in the 100 - 200 yard range, I'll be swinging by on Monday to buy it!

J.Ja

Chuck Haggard
04-21-2012, 05:24 PM
Both the Ruger and Savage are fine hobbyist grade hunting rifles, and for truck hunting deer as you describe, if there is a requirement to completely unload, the DBM may be handy. Savage makes a Scout, and in the Gunsite practical rifle world, they have not proven durable. Go hunting around the world, either dangerous game, backpack hunts, or what guide/professional hunters carry, and you would be hard pressed to find a Ruger, Savage or any rifle with a DBM.

As regards accuracy, accuracy is not the sole requirement for a hard use hunting rifle. If it was the sole requirement, all hunting rifles would be on a Remington action, since their action is conducive to making an accurate hunting rifle.


I absolutely get all that. However, comma, the OP seems to be looking for a limited use deer and pig rifle that will keep his friend happy while on his land. He appears to have ARs and such for other uses. Were it me I wouldn't be spending money in the four digits for a rifle that will get limited used for this mission profile.

If I needed a bolt gun that was very hard use and I could maybe fight with I'd likely have one built on a Mauser action, or just have my P17 converted over to that task.

I would like to hear more ref the shortcomings of the Savage rifles. I have not seen one broken yet so I curious what issues might pop up.

Chuck Haggard
04-21-2012, 05:26 PM
Al - Just took a look at it today... I was in the area. I like it. Light & short. If you say that 30-30 will take SC deer & hog in the 100 - 200 yard range, I'll be swinging by on Monday to buy it!

J.Ja

The 30-30 is almost THE American gun for that job, and has put a lot of deer and pigs in the dirt for over a hundred years.

Suggestion; Hornady LeverRevolution ammo. It pretty much turns the 30-30 into a .300Savage, which knocks on the basement door of .308Win performance on game.

Al T.
04-21-2012, 07:15 PM
Justin, I'd go for it. Let me know what time and I'll meet you there.

Agree with TPD about the Hornaday ammo. I just helped brassfetcher (provided ammo) do a video on the 325 grain ammo out of a .45-70 and it just mutilates the gel block.

GJM
04-21-2012, 08:20 PM
I absolutely get all that. However, comma, the OP seems to be looking for a limited use deer and pig rifle that will keep his friend happy while on his land. He appears to have ARs and such for other uses. Were it me I wouldn't be spending money in the four digits for a rifle that will get limited used for this mission profile.

If I needed a bolt gun that was very hard use and I could maybe fight with I'd likely have one built on a Mauser action, or just have my P17 converted over to that task.

I would like to hear more ref the shortcomings of the Savage rifles. I have not seen one broken yet so I curious what issues might pop up.

To your point, at some point the thread shifted, from what is an economical, PC looking rifle capable of harvesting deer in SC, to hard use bolt action rifles.

At Gunsite, there were issues with magazines falling out, front sights launching and, the show stopper, breakages of the bolt head retaining pin. I haven't kept track of the Savage rifles since then, as I am almost exclusively using pre-64 actions for all my serious rifles, so I can't say what the status of current production Savage rifles is. I have never seen a Savage out in the field while hunting in Canada, Africa and my home state, Alaska.

jmjames
04-21-2012, 09:04 PM
Justin, I'd go for it. Let me know what time and I'll meet you there.

Agree with TPD about the Hornaday ammo. I just helped brassfetcher (provided ammo) do a video on the 325 grain ammo out of a .45-70 and it just mutilates the gel block.

Al -

I'll be there at 10 AM on Monday to buy it. :D

That Hornady ammunition makes a lot of sense from what I've read.

Thanks to EVERYONE who took the time to reply and provide helpful information! I've lusted after a Remington bolt action for a while now... but not after reading this thread. It is disappointing that so many of our military and law enforcement personnel are being sent into action with precision rifles that sound like they have trigger and extraction reliability issues. The Marlin 336 sounds like a "good enough" answer for my mission, which GJM succinctly rephrased as "an economical, PC looking rifle capable of harvesting deer in SC". For that mission, spending $224 for a "good enough gun" that I can get relatively inexpensive ammunition for is great. In fact, that $224 rifle even includes a cheap Simmons scope (likely to be replaced ASAP).

If/when hunting becomes a more regular part of my life and these circumstances still apply, I will likely move up to a Winchester Model 70. If these circumstances change, then I'll end up with an AR-10 or a 300 BLK or 6.8 upper.

J.Ja

GJM
04-21-2012, 09:34 PM
Great news on the Marlin -- superb lever gun, especially if you want to run a conventional scope. I carry a short one in 45-70, frequently in the summer.

Don't dry fire it without a snap cap -- I learned this the hard way, as the firing pin is prone to breakage when dry fired.

No experience with the Hornady ammo, but my Marlin loved the Federal 170 soft point load. Lots of opportunities to accessorize it with a larger lever loop, butt cuff for spare ammo, piece of dehorned Weaver rail screwed to the for end so you can mount a Surefire, and on and on. A 30-30 is not just a PC deer rifle, it is a greatly underestimated defensive carbine for civilian applications.

jmjames
04-21-2012, 10:20 PM
Great news on the Marlin -- superb lever gun, especially if you want to run a conventional scope. I carry a short one in 45-70, frequently in the summer.

Don't dry fire it without a snap cap -- I learned this the hard way, as the firing pin is prone to breakage when dry fired.

No experience with the Hornady ammo, but my Marlin loved the Federal 170 soft point load. Lots of opportunities to accessorize it with a larger lever loop, butt cuff for spare ammo, piece of dehorned Weaver rail screwed to the for end so you can mount a Surefire, and on and on. A 30-30 is not just a PC deer rifle, it is a greatly underestimated defensive carbine for civilian applications.

Thanks for the tip on the snap cap! I'll be sure to toss one into my Amazon cart.

Just looking around, I'm seeing those great accessory options you are talking about. I know that I am looking forwards to getting the stock tip-top. It's a plain stock, no checkering, but Al's right, someone butchered it at some point. My can of linseed oil and supply of sandpaper is calling... :)

In terms of defensive use, I can definitely see that. I think my current HD setup is about as good as it will get, but for my wife or mother, they'd probably like shooting a relatively low recoil, "stupid simple" long arm like the 336 (the one I'm buying is so old, it doesn't have a safety on it) a LOT better than my 12 gauge, and it's probably easier for them to shoot well than a pistol. I have a feeling that when I figure out the best way to put longarms in my closet that the 336 will end up in there next to the shotgun, and the scope I am looking at (Millett DMS) would probably be excellent for HD use.

J.Ja

rob_s
04-22-2012, 08:29 AM
Randy Cain's Practical Rifle class (stay tuned for upcoming article in SWAT on same) is predicated on the idea that "bubba's hunting rifle is the last one they'll take away", and learning to fight with it. I think there's a lot of merit in that idea, but you also learn general fundamentals with the gun that apply to whatever else you're doing with it. As Randy says "there are only two practical uses for a rifle, hunting and fighting", and the lessons learned in this class apply either way. From ready positions, to marksmanship positions, to keeping the gun topped up, to running the bolt, to transitions to a handgun, I think they all apply regardless of end-use.

Did I personally want my AR back by the end of the class? You betcha! :cool: Am I glad that I learned what I did and have a better understanding of how to run a bolt gun? Absolutely. Did it, in fact, make me a better shooter with my AR? I believe that it did, or will.

jmjames
04-22-2012, 10:33 AM
Randy Cain's Practical Rifle class (stay tuned for upcoming article in SWAT on same) is predicated on the idea that "bubba's hunting rifle is the last one they'll take away", and learning to fight with it. I think there's a lot of merit in that idea, but you also learn general fundamentals with the gun that apply to whatever else you're doing with it. As Randy says "there are only two practical uses for a rifle, hunting and fighting", and the lessons learned in this class apply either way. From ready positions, to marksmanship positions, to keeping the gun topped up, to running the bolt, to transitions to a handgun, I think they all apply regardless of end-use.

Did I personally want my AR back by the end of the class? You betcha! :cool: Am I glad that I learned what I did and have a better understanding of how to run a bolt gun? Absolutely. Did it, in fact, make me a better shooter with my AR? I believe that it did, or will.

That sounds like a pretty neat class! Someone in this thread described the 336 as an "assault rifle", and I definitely see that, rapid rate of fire, intermediate cartridge, short barrel, light gun, and even optics friendly (unusual for a design of that era). Other than the relatively limited capacity, I would be "satisfied" (though not "happy"... see the recent Bersa Thunder thread...) with it as an inexpensive alternative to an AR or an AK if I were on a very strict budget and looking for an HD application (though I'd be better served by saving an additional $200 up and buying a WASR 10).

J.Ja

tmoore912
04-22-2012, 11:22 AM
I like the XS Lever Rail system for my 336 and 1895. http://xssights.com/index.php?nID=scopemounts&cID=Scope%20Mounts&pID=scopemounts Gives you plenty of choices on mounting scopes or red dots. I had my 1895 set up that way with a Leupold Scout Scope 2.5 power mounted forward with Warne quick release rings. You can take the scope off to use the irons, and then put the scope back on without losing zero. Was able to pick up on targets pretty fast. I use the Hornady Leverevolution ammo with great results in accuracy and penetration on Ga. deer.

The bigger lever loop would be ideal. I've been wanting to get one for a while.

ETA: Some more concepts you can do with a lever gun. http://www.grizzlycustom.com/packages_custom_lever_action_rifle.html

GJM
04-22-2012, 12:55 PM
1) best lever action work anywhere is by Jim Brockman at Brockman Custom.

2) Randy Cain's practical rifle course is excellent, and on par with the gold standard, API270 at Gunsite.

3) I ran a Marlin .44 lever gun thru three days of Urban Rifle at TR, until my thumb gave out loading .44 thru the gate of the Marlin, and switched to a AUG (Pre Aimpoint days).

LHS
04-22-2012, 01:06 PM
I've always liked the feel of a levergun, but I want something with a bit more oomph and reach than a .30-30 or pistol-caliber carbine, and a flatter trajectory than a .45-70. The only options I've seen for this in a levergun are some out-of-production guns like a Savage 99 or a Winchester 88 (both of which fairly well ruin the aesthetics of a classic lever) or the currently in-production Browning BLR. Does anyone have any experience with the BLR? Reliability, extraction, accuracy? The box magazine and rotary bolt intrigue me, as I could get one of these in .308 or .30-'06. I don't really fancy the take-down models, just a basic, pistol-gripped BLR in one of the classic .30-caliber hunting cartridges.

If the ammo was more available, I'd be intrigued by the notion of a BLR in .358 Winchester with a purpose-built suppressor as a pig gun.

GJM
04-22-2012, 01:24 PM
My experience is that while lever guns do well with pistol and lever gun cartridges, they don't do well as rifles. Triggers are usually second class, not as strong as a bolt action, and sling pressure sensitive making use of a proper shooting sling problematic.

rob_s
04-22-2012, 02:14 PM
Revolvers and leverguns are both things that many think are "robust" and are often surprised at how complex they can be inside and how susceptible they are to stoppages and failures.

secondstoryguy
04-22-2012, 02:42 PM
Revolvers and leverguns are both things that many think are "robust" and are often surprised at how complex they can be inside and how susceptible they are to stoppages and failures.

Yep. Bolt guns are much more durable and just as fast to load. A few years back I learned this firsthand when I dented the magazine of my Marlin 45-70 rendering it a single shot.

Little Creek
04-23-2012, 07:09 AM
All my bolt guns have left hand actions. I have a Savage Scout in 308. I have a M70 in 270 (yes they made a few in LH before the Hartford plant closed). I have two M700s, one in 243 and one in 338 Win Mag (with a scout scope and peep sights). I have 4 lever guns. 2 Marlins in 357 Mag and 44 mag with Leupold Scout scopes. Two M94 Winchester BB in 307 Winchester, one with a scout scope and one with XS peep sights. I also have an AR in 556 and one in 22RF and a 10/22 etc.

The M70 is one fine rifle. Just a 3X9 scope no sights. I like the Savage, no problems so far. It has a Leupold scout scope. I would love to get an AR in 308. The Lever Guns are good. Going forwarde all future bolt guns for me will be short action, either 243 or 308.I think the Savage is a great rifle that will not break the bank. As far as I can tell the Savage problems were from long ago and have been addressed by the factory. I also bought my wife a Savage 16 in 243. She shot a nickel sized group and killed deer at 120 and 210 yards with one shot each last season.

I suggest you sell your friend on the AR platform as the MSR.

Thats my thoughts For what they are worth.

jmjames
04-23-2012, 02:05 PM
I picked up the Marlin 336 today. $224, included a Simmons 3x9 scope on some high, see-through, no-name rings. The scope is best described as a "bonus" considering what it is. Even after I cleaned the lenses it is still a bit cloudy, dim, and even changes the color of things a bit. I guess I was spoiled by my one and only previous rifle scope, the 8x, Russian-made POSP I had on my PSL/FPK, it was crystal clear and super-sharp, and dirt cheap (something like $220).

The Marlin's stock is a bit rough, it's real walnut and is old enough for the sweat and oil from the previous owners to have discolored the wood near the receiver, it was an oil finish, no poly. It was made in 1974, so it is older than me. I picked up a box of Winchester Powerpoint 170 grain on my way home, and I'll be picking up a box of Hornady Leverevolution 160 grain as well, and maybe some Federal Vital Shok and Winchester White Box. I'd like to compare how the two shoot, since, as the LGS clerk pointed out, the micro grooves may do some funky things to modern ammunition. The action is fairly smooth for a gun that looks like the last time it was cleaned, restricted flush toilets were a current event.

Hopefully, Al and I can get out to the range in the next week or two and put it through its paces, get the scope zero'ed, figure out which ammo runs best in it, etc. Once that's done, I'll pull the stock off and refinish it to give it some weather resistance.
Nothing fancy, just some sanding, oiling, smoothing, and maybe some poly.

J.Ja

GJM
04-23-2012, 02:29 PM
I picked up the Marlin 336 today. $224, included a Simmons 3x9 scope on some high, see-through, no-name rings. The scope is best described as a "bonus" considering what it is. Even after I cleaned the lenses it is still a bit cloudy, dim, and even changes the color of things a bit. I guess I was spoiled by my one and only previous rifle scope, the 8x, Russian-made POSP I had on my PSL/FPK, it was crystal clear and super-sharp, and dirt cheap (something like $220).

The Marlin's stock is a bit rough, it's real walnut and is old enough for the sweat and oil from the previous owners to have discolored the wood near the receiver, it was an oil finish, no poly. It was made in 1974, so it is older than me. I picked up a box of Winchester Powerpoint 170 grain on my way home, and I'll be picking up a box of Hornady Leverevolution 160 grain as well, and maybe some Federal Vital Shok and Winchester White Box. I'd like to compare how the two shoot, since, as the LGS clerk pointed out, the micro grooves may do some funky things to modern ammunition. The action is fairly smooth for a gun that looks like the last time it was cleaned, restricted flush toilets were a current event.

Hopefully, Al and I can get out to the range in the next week or two and put it through its paces, get the scope zero'ed, figure out which ammo runs best in it, etc. Once that's done, I'll pull the stock off and refinish it to give it some weather resistance.
Nothing fancy, just some sanding, oiling, smoothing, and maybe some poly.

J.Ja

Don't forget to protect the inside of the stock, if you are worried about weather protection.

jmjames
04-23-2012, 03:22 PM
Don't forget to protect the inside of the stock, if you are worried about weather protection.

Yup! I pull it off the gun to do the refinish, and I always gets lots of oil in those areas that can trap water and moisture.

J.Ja

jmjames
05-05-2012, 10:55 PM
Quick follow-up to this...

Sighted in at 50 yards with Winchester Super X 170 gr. soft points, went fine. Moved out to 100 yards, went fine. Consistently saw 2" - 3" groups, no matter what ammo was used (tried the Winchester, Hornady Leverevolution 160, and Leverevolution 140). All were slightly high and to the right, so a touch more adjustment was needed. The el-cheapo Simmons scope & mount acquitted themselves well for my needs, and I see no pressing reason to replace them at this time.

It was taken out of action by a wicked jam. The mag tube is slightly bending from the clamps holding to the barrel, which bound the follower up. As a result, a round failed to chamber, and we had to remove the mag tube and partially break the action down to get it running again. The temporary solution is to only put 5 rounds in the pipe for the time being, the long term solution may be a fresh spring, a new follower, a new mag tube, or just hope it was a one-time event (it may have been).

Also, last week I re-did the furniture (just a basic job... sanded up to 220 grit, raised the grain & re-sanded, "teak oil" and boiled linseed oil, wet sanding with 800 grit and boiled linseed oil, let harden for a day, then B/C "Stock Sheen and Conditioner" followed by 4 rounds of Howard's Feed 'n Wax) and added a side saddle bag w/ammo carrier that also does a nice job at being a cheek rest and helping to get my head over the see-through rings and up to the scope.

All in all, a great buy and it definitely meets the needs!

J.Ja

MolonLabe416
05-09-2012, 12:52 AM
Winchester Model 70, Weatherby, Savage, Ruger M77, in 308.

Marlin 30/30.