How Do You Decide What Bullet Weight To Use?

[Cypher]

That's my question, how do you decide which bullet weight to use?

I've said this before but I settled on Speer Gold Dot 9mm 124 grain +P because I literally sent an email to Kathy Jackson (Cornered Cat) and asked her what she used.

She told me what she used and referred me to Dr. Roberts' list.

Asking her was all the research I did.

So how do you choose? Why would you use a 115 grain over a 124 grain or why would you pick a 147 grain over a 115 grain?

[revchuck38]

For me, it's whatever weight shoots to POA in that gun. IME most 9x19s are pretty close with most common bullet weights; with my 67-year-old eyes 115s and 124s hit the same place and 147s are a bit high. I settled on 124s because about 15 years ago there was a bunch of 124-grain +P Gold Dots that came on the market cheap and my CZ-75Bs liked them. I'm currently using 124-grain +P HST for carry ammo and usually get 124-grain hardball for practice or buy 124 FMJ bullets to reload. My M&P40 shoots to POA with 180s and my .45s (M&P, Commander and S&W M22-4) are right on with 230s.

Fixed-sight revolvers are much pickier. My M10s and 681 require 158s, which is why I've stuck with old-school loads (R-P 158-grain LSWC-HP and 158-grain SJHP, respectively) with them. I recently bought a police trade-in 642 and it's REALLY picky; it wants 125-130-grain jacketed ammo, which irritates me because I have almost 3K of 148- and 158-grain lead bullet ammo sitting in ammo cans.

If your gun likes the Gold Dots, stick with them. Don't fix what ain't broke. I'd only switch if there's a POA/POI issue.

[Cypher]

For what it's worth and I honestly don't know if it changes anything or not but my practice ammunition and my self-defense ammunition are both 124 grain.

[FNFAN]

124+p Gold Dot. I was traumatized by a retired feeb that was our chief investigator. He claimed 147gr was the proverbial 'Hammer of Thor.' and it was his way or the highway. Moved away from the 9 back to a 45.

[Cypher]

124+p Gold Dot. I was traumatized by a retired feeb that was our chief investigator. He claimed 147gr was the proverbial 'Hammer of Thor.' and it was his way or the highway. Moved away from the 9 back to a 45.

FWIW THIS is the Hammer Of Thor

https://i.postimg.cc/dQy51pf5/FB_IMG_1546795767317.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

1,442,000 grains and very definitely plus P

[mmc45414]

She told me what she used and referred me to Dr. Roberts' list.
why would you pick a 147 grain over a 115 grain?
To me the 147g idea seems wacky, but DrR himself has me on the path of being convinced otherwise, and I just bought some G2 and HST and am screwing around with it to see exactly how far off it may or may not be from the common practice ammo.

I reload, but if you do not sticking closer to all of the commonly available inexpensive practice ammo might be a consideration. My current thinking is the kind of practice I do, I can make sure I am POI with the carry ammo, and if the practice ammo is a little off it will still hit an 8" plate. This is just my rather haphazard way of looking at it, but I am at least convinced enough to be trying the 147 idea.

But, I think once you get into the realm of reasonable with the stuff DrR recommends you might not worry so much more. I am a bit of a gun nerd so I am more intrigued than worried.

[revchuck38]

^^^^When I was assigned to Ft. Carson (February '75) I ended up in an 8" firing battery. (M110s, the picture above shows M110A1s.) Those guns were crazy accurate and the HE rounds had a 75 meter kill radius. We did direct fire once, shooting at old jeep and 2-1/2 hulks at 1-1.5km distance, and random pieces of vehicle were coming back to the line when we got a direct hit. Seeing them in the snow definitely brings back memories!

[sparkyv]

As a starting point, I select mid-range weight projectiles. They usually provide a good velocity and energy balance. Then I tweak from there to dial in accuracy for a given firearm.

Cypher, would you please share link to Dr. Roberts' list?

[Cypher]

^^^^When I was assigned to Ft. Carson (February '75) I ended up in an 8" firing battery. (M110s, the picture above shows M110A1s.) Those guns were crazy accurate and the HE rounds had a 75 meter kill radius. We did direct fire once, shooting at old jeep and 2-1/2 hulks at 1-1.5km distance, and random pieces of vehicle were coming back to the line when we got a direct hit. Seeing them in the snow definitely brings back memories!

I don't think those are A1s because they've got the muzzle brake on them.

[Cypher]

Cypher, would you please share link to Dr. Roberts' list?

It's right here in the ammunition sub forum

Service Caliber Handgun Duty and Self-Defense Ammo

[mmc45414]

For what it's worth and I honestly don't know if it changes anything or not but my practice ammunition and my self-defense ammunition are both 124 grain.
I figure I am like a bazillion other people that carry 124g and do most practice with 115g, I am sure you are set pretty well with 124g/124g. The only question would be if you might be slightly better off with the new fangled (just kidding, it is well established) 147g stuff, especially some of the new ones the FBI has somewhat motivated the continued development of.

IMO the free market is a great helper here, Speer and Hornady and the others are competing to sell ammo, so I am comfortable accepting that none of the major brands are going to leave themselves competitively venerable to any large degree. So I figure if I/you get some Gold Dot or HST you will be where ya need to be.

[revchuck38]

I don't think those are A1s because they've got the muzzle brake on them.

You're right, the A1s had longer tubes and the A2s had muzzle brakes.

[Hambo]

Why would you use a 115 grain over a 124 grain or why would you pick a 147 grain over a 115 grain?

Bigger hammer, Doc says it's GTG, and I'm carrying a 5" barreled pistol.


To me the 147g idea seems wacky, but DrR himself has me on the path of being convinced otherwise, and I just bought some G2 and HST and am screwing around with it to see exactly how far off it may or may not be from the common practice ammo.

I reload, but if you do not sticking closer to all of the commonly available inexpensive practice ammo might be a consideration. My current thinking is the kind of practice I do, I can make sure I am POI with the carry ammo, and if the practice ammo is a little off it will still hit an 8" plate.

My test is The Test. I shoot my 115gr reloads in my range gun and 147gr HST in my carry gun. Scores are 97-98 plus X's using both pistols and their ammo.

[GAP]

124+p in anything that has a 4”+ barrel and a full grip.

147 in subcompacts with a shorter barrel than 4” and a two-finger grip.

[EricG]

Gun manufacturers typically chamber their barrels to "optimally" perform with a certain grain. It is usually 124gr for 9mm.
From there I simply pick a couple from Doc's list, confirm function and POI and roll with it.

[OlongJohnson]

FWIW THIS is the Hammer Of Thor

https://i.postimg.cc/dQy51pf5/FB_IMG_1546795767317.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

1,442,000 grains and very definitely plus P

No, this is.

44041

[Cypher]

No, this is.

44041

Lots of luck using that in the Fulda Gap.

That said, do you see they shock wave in the water? I bet it kills fish 50 feet down

[0ddl0t]

So how do you choose? Why would you use a 115 grain over a 124 grain or why would you pick a 147 grain over a 115 grain?

Ammo weight is not a selection criterion for me. I look at gel tests others have done using pistols with the same barrel length I intend to use and exclude any ammo that fails to consistently expand and stay within 12-18" penetration. Ideally, I want to see the ammo perform well with & without heavy denim as well as through real ordinance gel & clear gel.

I'll then take that list of "good enough terminal performance" ammo and whittle it down based on price & availability.

I then take the remaining contenders and shoot under a variety of conditions and from unusual & weak positions to ensure they function properly in my guns. Then I conduct a 25 yard accuracy test and note both the group size and point of impact - giving preference to defense ammo that shoots near to the same POI as my practice ammo.

Finally I look at the top ~5 or so contenders and pick one based on a balance of price, accuracy/precision, gel tests, street cred, felt recoil, and law/litigation potential.* For my 3" barrel and low price per round requirement, the contenders wound up being Critical Defense 115 ($0.60), HST 124 ($0.40), HST 147 ($0.40), and Winchester Train & Defend 147 ($0.32) with Remington UMC 115 ($0.28) & WWB 115 ($0.30) being a distant tie for 5th. I went with HST 124 in large part due to HST's street cred (including being on Doc's list) and the fact that some HST 147 tests *looked* like the bullets were close to dropping below the expansion threshold from 3" guns...




* For instance, even if it passed all other criteria I'd exclude RIP ammo with its box proclaiming "radically invasive projectile" because it would needlessly look bad in court. And I'd exclude any ammo which is not typically sold to civilians because I sometimes travel to San Francisco where civilians cannot have:


"Ammunition designated by its manufacturer for purchase by law enforcement or military agencies only, unless other ammunition is available to the general public that has physical properties resulting in ballistics performance identical to such ammunition."




PS: Is street cred short for street credibility or street credentials?

[Balisong]

I go with 147 because of how seemingly consistent it performs out of all barrel sizes from subcompacts up to 5"+ barrels.

Now as I eventually get better at shooting, if I determine I get better accuracy out of a certain gun with a 124 +p then maybe I'll consider switching for specific guns. But for now it's 147 across the board.

[Trooper224]

I use 124 rather than 147, simply because the 124s shoot to POA whereas the 147s shoot significantly above POA in my guns. Everything else is moot.

[revchuck38]

...I'd exclude any ammo which is not typically sold to civilians because I sometimes travel to San Francisco where civilians cannot have:


"Ammunition designated by its manufacturer for purchase by law enforcement or military agencies only, unless other ammunition is available to the general public that has physical properties resulting in ballistics performance identical to such ammunition."




PS: Is street cred short for street credibility or street credentials?

Most of the ammo on Doc's list is available to non-LEOs. To the best of my knowledge, the only difference between the HST and GD loads offered to both LE and civilians is the size of the box - 50 for LE and 20 for civilians.

Street cred = street credibility.

[0ddl0t]

To the best of my knowledge, the only difference between the HST and GD loads offered to both LE and civilians is the size of the box - 50 for LE and 20 for civilians.
Yep, although I haven't yet found the +P variants in civilian packaging. It may be a byproduct of packaging/shipping, but I've also noticed better asthetic quality on the HST 20 round clear plastic civilian boxes (it is rare to find a scratched civilian bullet, but pretty common in the leo 50 round cardboard box).

[revchuck38]

<thread drift>
FWIW, the HST in my nightstand M&P40 is brass-cased, rather than nickled. I've only seen that in .40.
</thread drift>

[Medusa]

When I first started carrying and had to decide what to use, the federal 9bp round got a fair number of kudos from people I believed gave good advice. I understand technology has moved on, and don’t gainsay that or dispute it. I still carry xm9001 (basically a faster 9bp that isn’t as fast as 9bple) and the Speer lawman is extremely similar, recoil, speed and poi wise. I shoot enough that I appreciate the savings between lawman 115 and 124 - about 18 dollars a case. When i shoot up the last of my xm9001 I’ll likely switch to gold dot 115 and call it good enough. I don’t stress overmuch about anything but being accurate and trying to get faster. I know it’s different for others, some of whom are sworn and paid to go into harm’s way. This was just how I got where I’m at, and I’m just an armed citizen.

I’ve tried other weights and find 147 would require significant adaptation on my part, no doubt due to some defect in my technique. Given cost and familiarity I believe I’ll stay with 115.

[Inspector71]

Retired a few years now, so have shot off my stock of gov’t issued 9mm duty ammo that I was able to walk out the door with. Now a box of 9mm comes out of my pocket. Old school when it comes to buying a box of pistol ammo, so I refuse to buy any 20 round boxes off the shelf. Which all lead me to purchase a few boxes of 147 grain JHP, in 50 round boxes, at my local Walmart a few months ago (before the announcement). Glad to report that it functions 100% in my G17; just a couple of inches high POA. PS: For practice ammo, I started reloading 9mm on my Dillion SDB also.

[ST911]

Ammo weight is not a selection criterion for me.

This. Sooooooooo many other variables and stuff going on.

[Tom Duffy]

1. Is it Gold Dot or HST?
2. Is it reliable in my gun?
3. Is it accurate in my gun?

I only recently added accuracy as a criterion. I thought any Federal or Speer would be accurate enough until I found out they weren't. My Dan Wesson V-Bob hates 115s and loves 147s.

[Cypher]

This. Sooooooooo many other variables and stuff going on.


So do you just pick whichever weight is on sale?

[Borderland]

Can't go wrong with the bullet weight that the cartridge was designed for.

If you want a heavier bullet than 124 why not just move on up to 40 S&W. I'm not a 40 guy but I think I read somewhere that 180 was the original loading.

Problem solved.

[Cypher]

If you want a heavier bullet than 124 why not just move on up to 40 S&W. I'm not a 40 guy but I think I read somewhere that 180 was the original loading.

I don't necessarily want a heavier bullet. I'm completely content with the 124 Grain Gold Dots based on the recommendation of someone I consider to be an SME.

I just thought there might be some criterion that knowledgeable people used to pick a bullet weight.

[gringop]

For myself, I find heavier loads have less perceived recoil in my handguns, I see it in 9mm 147gr vs 115, in 40 180gr vs 165, and in 45 230gr vs 200. This is for full power duty ammo.

For practice and competition I reload 124gr FMJ, if I were a more serious competitor, I would not worry about the expense and go up to a 148gr bullet.

I'm currently carrying 147 gr. Golden Sabers and when I run low on them I'm sure I will replace them with either the same thing or a 147gr equivalent from Doc's list.

Ultimately, no practical carry handgun is a magic hammer of Thor and all that we can reasonably expect is that they act as a somewhat long range drill press to make holes in things. Better to spend time ensuring that we can use the drill press to the best of our ability then worry about tungsten carbide vs cobalt vs high speed steel drill bits. Just don't use Chinesium drill bits.

Gringop

[LSP552]

1. On Doc’s list

2. Reliable in my pistol

3. Shoots to the sights.

In general, I prefer the 147 HST. I have a couple of guns that just do better with 124+P Gold Dot so that’s what they get fed.

[JBP55]

Formerly used 124+P Gold Dot or HST for carry depending on availability and 124 American Eagle for range.
Recently switched to 147 HST for carry and 147 American Eagle for range.
I never had any ammunition issues in any of my 9mm pistols.

[RevolverRob]

I check the accuracy of my given load, by shooting off the bench. Then pick the load that works best in that gun.

Turns out all of my 9mm guns like either 124-grain Gold Dot or HST or 147-grain HST. So, I use those loadings. In .45 ACP I just run 230-grain HSTs or Gold Dots. I've never met a .45 that cared much about bullet weight, lighter bullets are a little better in shorter guns, but if the barrel is ~4" or longer a 230-grain JHP will work fine.

Far pickier, in my experience, are fixed sight .38 Special revolvers. Many of which were regulated from the factory with 158-grain bullets at ~800 fps. Even though there are better lighter bullets (135-grain Gold Dot Short Barrel, for instance), they do not always shoot to the sights. This is a real frustration with those guns. I sometimes have to pick through a few different loadings to find something that hits where I want.

All of my POA/POI testing and accuracy testing is done at 25-yards. I shoot it off a bench rest to help eliminate the shooter as a variable in performance.

[UNM1136]

Sad to say, I(and my dept) rely on the largest department in the state. I don't know how well they test, but I have been to a couple of body armor shoots. We used to issue Gold Dot, but now are HST 124 gr devotees.

Hst 230s for those using fat bullets.

@DocKGR saved my agency a decade ago from an administrator who thought the .17 HMR was the patrol rifle cartridge of the future....

pat

[Cypher]

@DocKGR saved my agency a decade ago from an administrator who thought the .17 HMR was the patrol rifle cartridge of the future....

pat


Seriously?

[O4L]

As a starting point, I select mid-range weight projectiles. They usually provide a good velocity and energy balance. Then I tweak from there to dial in accuracy for a given firearm.

Cypher, would you please share link to Dr. Roberts' list?

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo

[Rick R]

We had a sheriff who became enamored of the FN P90 because it looked cool. He even nicknamed it the “mouse”. Luckily his term ended before he found funding to put a mouse in every car. Not much better than the .17HMR IMHO.

I figure that Herr Luger designed the 9mm around a 124(ish) grain bullet and those old guys kinda knew what they were doing. Modern bullets just make it more better. I either carry 124gr +P in either Gold Dot or Winchester bonded flavor.

[Totem Polar]

Something that Greg Hamilton told me decades ago still sticks: I tend to use the weight that the guns were originally designed around. Add a sprinkling of DocGKR’s modern bullet design, and it’s pretty easy—especially for a guy raised on trips to the snake river and Lewiston, ID.

124 GDHP (either pressure rating) in 9mm
230 GDHP in .45
135 GDHP in .38 (or 148-158gr in old school loads)
200 GDHP (or 240 Keith) in .44spec
158gr in .357 (since that cartridge is pretty much a woods bumming round for me—I’d use either silvertip 145or 135gr GDHP .357 if for some reason I was carrying a King cobra or M65 in urban digs)

Etc.

[ST911]

So do you just pick whichever weight is on sale?

No, test results.

[sparkyv]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo

Thanks, O4L.

[El Cid]

Can't go wrong with the bullet weight that the cartridge was designed for.

If you want a heavier bullet than 124 why not just move on up to 40 S&W. I'm not a 40 guy but I think I read somewhere that 180 was the original loading.

Problem solved.

Because 40 has so many drawbacks compared to 9mm for starters. And the 147gr pills excel in the fed’s testing.

I agree with the idea that bullet weight isn’t the most critical element anyway. Find something on the list that is reliable and practice.

[SecondsCount]

I bought my first handgun, a 9mm, in 1988. Winchester White Box 115 FMJ was the best deal on the shelf and thought I should be good with that. Sometime in the early 90s I discovered that "magical bullet" called the Hydra-Shok and bought a box. I had a mag loaded with it in the night stand in case things got bad but never fired a single round to test the gun.

Sometime after the the evil Black Talon came along and out went the Hydra-Shok. Then I switched to 45ACP and had Golden Sabers in it. This time I got a good deal on a bunch and ran them in a 1911 without an issue.

In 2010 I went back to 9mm and picked up the 124+P Gold Dot and have been carrying it ever since. I made that decision based on reading what DocGKR wrote, price and availability, and how well it functioned in my pistol.

[spence]

Just switched to 9 a year or so ago. Did some study through Youtube and Lucky Gunner's gel tests. The one 9mm I'd had was subcompact, and I ran standard pressure 124 gr Golden Sabre in it for years. Picked up a pile of them for cheap about ten years ago.

Another 3" gun I acquired, that is pretty much never carried, it loaded with 115 gr Gold Dot.
Night stand gun has some 147 gr Winchester Defend in it right now. It was a novel theory, and there's some good test results on it, but I've decided when it's time to change out and I have no more of it, that pistol will swap to 124 gr HST.
My carry gun and backup (M9 and 92 compact) started out with the same 124 gr HST in them. However, I shoot the M9 a lot, and being loaded and unloaded regularly, I was having the top round in the mag set back pretty quickly (I don't bother with +1 on anything over about a 12 round capacity, why chase a loose round all over?). So I got to thinking, long ago I carried the green/white box Remington 115 gr JHP before Golden Sabres came along. I still have a bunch. And his testing may not be scientific, Paul Harrel's results, mixed with my own testing, the fact I am more likely to dispatch a four legged vermin than two legged, and they don't have the frequency of slugs setting back in the case as HST's do. So I switched to carrying them the vast majority of the time just banging around out here in the sticks. I'd probably move to a 124, if they had it.

Practice ammo? I prefer 124 in a lot of ways, but I've got four or five loads I prefer to buy when ordering ammo. Since they're not always in stock, I'll usually buy whatever weight is in stock, and if 115 is cheaper by more than a couple bucks a case, I'll go that route.

[Cypher]

So ultimately as long as it's on the list you just pick which works best for you.

I'm still satisfied with the 124 grain gold dots and I'm still willing to take Cornered Cat's word for it.