REVIEW - Magpul PMag 35 rd for CZ Scorpion Evo 3

[Naphtali]

Bottom Line

-- I own 2 SBR'ed Scorpion Evo (former) pistols. Just received 16 x Scorpion PMags from Brownell's today.
-- All 16 catastrophically fail to seat properly in Scorpion #1. All 16 can be seated, but with very dubious reliability, in Scorpion #2.
-- Both weapons work flawlessly with 4 x OEM CZ 20 rd mags and 20 x OEM CZ 30 rd mags.

Obviously I'll be returning all of the PMags.


Details

Both Scorpion Evo Pistols were purchased new in 2017 and SBR'ed with all original CZ parts, with the following exceptions:
1) CZ Custom Trigger Pack and Disconnector jobs - done by CZ Custom (both pretty mandatory for 922r compliance). This changes the trigger, sear, hammer, trigger spring, and disconnector.
2) Magpul magazine release (it is a massive upgrade and I highly recommend)
3) Magpul grip (ok upgrade, personal preference on this)

Both Scorpions have been tested with 4 x 20rd CZ factory mags and 20 x 30rd CZ factory mags. All are OEM, and the version where CZ makes the floorplates and the followers in the U.S. for 922r compliance.
-- The mags were manufactured in 2016 / 2017, AFTER CZ increased the thickness of the feed lips to (apparently) solve the cracking problem of 2015 and earlier mags
-- Training ammo is Speer Lawman 124gr, and home defense (if I ever decided to change from an AR to the Scorpion - which I doubt) is Speer GDHP 147 gr
-- Zero malfunctions in ~1600 total rounds fired (~800 through each Scorpion) with the factory mags.


Magpul PMag Problems

All of this was done using only EMPTY mags. I did not perform any tests using a loaded mag. I also haven't taken them to the range, nor will I, because...


Scorpion #1
-- The magazines (all 16 of them) will NOT seat on a closed bolt when empty. I can put the magazine floorplate on the floor, and put all of my body weight on the gun pushing down on the mag, and it's impossible.
-- The magazines WILL stay in place in the magwell if you try (and fail) to insert them on a closed bolt and then you just let go of them, even though they're not fully seated / locked. They will continue to stay in place and even if you then pull and lock the bolt back. So I didn't realize anything was wrong at first. Obviously the mag would probably fall out after a round or 2 if you were shooting.
-- If the bolt is locked back first, the magazine can easily be fully inserted and will lock in place with the bolt open.
-- If the bolt is released, and the charging handle is manually eased forward, the bolt will get caught and stop when it reaches the top of the mag. It can then be pushed forward and fully closed with moderate force on the charging handle after that, but you can feel a decent amount of friction as it scrapes across the top of the mag.
-- If the bolt is released, via depressing the bolt catch, then the bolt will close fully on its own due to its momentum before it reaches the mag (there is maybe 1/4" of travel before), but you can feel the bolt drag across the top of the mag, like it wants to fail, but barely succeeds in getting across the mag and closing.

Scorpion #2
-- The magazines (all 16 of them) WILL seat on a closed bolt when empty. And while you can do this with one hand, it takes more force than any other gun I've ever used (and I'm pretty used to fully loaded 30rd AR-15 PMags being a bit difficult to seat on a closed bolt).
-- If the bolt is released, and the charging handle is manually eased forward, the bolt will fully close and NOT stop when it reaches the mag, though you can feel it drag across the top of the mag. If you just hit the bolt release, then the bolt also will fully close - again the drag across the mag is noticeable.

I didn't load the mags, because there is no point if they're malfunctioning empty.

I'm disappointed with Magpul - this really strikes me as they didn't try very hard in their development process. I was pretty stoked about using these mags when I ordered them 6 months ago. 2 of 2 Scorpions having the same problem to different degrees - with one being catastrophic - is definitely not a fluke, with 24 factory mags that all work perfectly. I have made no modifications that affect the height / distance of the lower receiver / magwell relative to the upper receiver. Magpul's mags are obviously taller than OEM mags above the mag catch indentation.

Other than the mag release and the handle being installed by me (it's really simple install those), all 922r compliant internal parts were installed by the professionals at CZ Custom (who partner directly with the engineers at CZ in their products). And I can't imagine how those internals would have anything to do with this anyway.

[Dan_S]

I’ll just leave this here...


http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?218491-REVIEW-Magpul-PMag-35-rd-for-CZ-Scorpion-Evo-3

[dontshakepandas]

I ordered 4 and they will all seat on a closed bolt easily when empty. Haven’t tried with ammo yet.

I’m also using the Magpul magazine release.


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[Dan_S]

In case there was any doubt, Duane Liptak followed up with this on M4C, and, shock, apparently not much of what our aspiring investigative journalist claims here, were factual.


Shrug.

[El Cid]

In case there was any doubt, Duane Liptak followed up with this on M4C, and, shock, apparently not much of what our aspiring investigative journalist claims here, were factual.


Shrug.

To be fair I don’t trust everything Liptak says. He was one of the Lake Arthur “cops” after all, which to me indicates a lack of integrity. But as big as Magpul is I can’t imagine them developing the mags the way the OP says he was told on the phone.

OP has a join date of this month. Wonder if he joined just to post this? It appears to be his only post.

[LittleLebowski]

Fuck it, let’s get some popcorn :D

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?218491-REVIEW-Magpul-PMag-35-rd-for-CZ-Scorpion-Evo-3&p=2778826#post2778826

[Sigfan26]

To be fair I don’t trust everything Liptak says. He was one of the Lake Arthur “cops” after all, which to me indicates a lack of integrity. But as big as Magpul is I can’t imagine them developing the mags the way the OP says he was told on the phone.

OP has a join date of this month. Wonder if he joined just to post this? It appears to be his only post.

Some other individuals highly regarded by the forum were Lake Arthur cops, as well. Some folks just didn’t get mentioned.


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[El Cid]

Some other individuals highly regarded by the forum were Lake Arthur cops, as well. Some folks just didn’t get mentioned.


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Oh I’m aware. You won’t see me at a Pressburg or Redback One class for the same reason.

[Sigfan26]

Oh I’m aware. You won’t see me at a Pressburg or Redback One class for the same reason.

There’s a few more than that, I’m told.


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[El Cid]

There’s a few more than that, I’m told.


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It’s been a while since I saw the list. The real shame is nobody got indicted for it.

[Sigfan26]

It’s been a while since I saw the list. The real shame is nobody got indicted for it.

I was told That was a bit of a “redacted “ list in the first place. Is what it is.


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[HCM]

To be fair I don’t trust everything Liptak says. He was one of the Lake Arthur “cops” after all, which to me indicates a lack of integrity. But as big as Magpul is I can’t imagine them developing the mags the way the OP says he was told on the phone.

OP has a join date of this month. Wonder if he joined just to post this? It appears to be his only post.

First and only post but apparently he’s been at M4C under that name since 2014.

Magpul makes solid gear and has a 100% track record of fixing actual issues like the issues with early Glock PMAGs.

The fact the OP posted this on multiple gun forums before even contacting Magpul speaks volumes.

[LittleLebowski]

Moving to GD.

[Dan_S]

Well, this has gotten quite interesting since Duane’s latest reply to the thread on M4C.

I may be in need of an apology to Naphtali, given how this appears to be panning out.

Weird situation overall...

[Naphtali]

Sorry about posting only one message here so far... it was my first post, and I was notified during submission that it required moderator approval before it would actually appear. After like 2 days of not appearing, I kind of gave up, until I got an email notice just now that I had been mentioned.

Anyway, this has been so much work & time trying to explain and give follow-up data on just m4c, that for now I'll just let it play out there instead of having 2 parallel discussions there and here.

Sorry if this is bad etiquette to link to a competitor forum, but since it's useful, the link to the ongoing thread there is:


https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?218491-REVIEW-Magpul-PMag-35-rd-for-CZ-Scorpion-Evo-3

[JRB]

To be fair I don’t trust everything Liptak says. He was one of the Lake Arthur “cops” after all, which to me indicates a lack of integrity. But as big as Magpul is I can’t imagine them developing the mags the way the OP says he was told on the phone.

OP has a join date of this month. Wonder if he joined just to post this? It appears to be his only post.

I trust maybe 5 people, and otherwise I trust people to operate only in their self-interest.

[awp_101]

For anyone else that didn’t understand the Lake Arthur references: Playing Cop: the Lake Arthur badge scheme (https://www.krqe.com/news/playing-cop-the-lake-arthur-badge-scheme-2/)

[LittleLebowski]

Bump. OP is following through and is not just here to complain.

[Kyle Reese]

Tagged with interest...


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[Dan_S]

Naphtali

I’ve been following your thread with interest on M4C. Glad things went well, and appreciate the time you took to document all of this.

[WobblyPossum]

It sounds like Magpul is doing everything they can which is consistent with the customer service experience I’ve had with them. Glad to hear the CS issues were just some misunderstandings on both sides.

[Naphtali]

Naphtali

I’ve been following your thread with interest on M4C. Glad things went well, and appreciate the time you took to document all of this.

Glad it's been interesting and maybe useful for you. I didn't expect the slugfest this turned into (not with Magpul, but the forum in general). But the main goal of getting everything out there and investigated was definitely reached.

It sucks that I may not have the PMags as an option, if at least one of my Scorpions is really this much of an outlier. We'll see if similar reports from others turn up in the future.

Because I do want the option of using the Scorpion for home defense for my wife, who finds AR15s too heavy / too much recoil, I'll be trying CZ's windowed mags + the 922r replacement floor plate. I learned only recently that you could get 1-2 parts of 922r compliance out of them with OEM replacement parts (also the follower). The different polymer of their windowed mags apparently does not crack (at least for the 2+ years they've been out), and with OEM specs otherwise, it should function properly.

Obviously I'll be leaving a few CZ windowed mags fully loaded to see what happens, after initial function testing. Should the feed lips ultimately crack, then the PMag would be my only option left for HD / long-term storage use. I have no doubt that PMags will hold up over time - would just have to pray that the things don't fail to function with live fire (which I did not test).

A fully accessorized / modified 922r compliant / SBR'ed / suppressed Evo costs like ~ $3,800 total per gun, not to mention it's my favorite gun by far to shoot. And mine luckily run 147gr Gold Dots subsonic (not all Evos do)... I'd get hearing loss more quickly from clapping my hands.

I get that an AR15 is 10x the gun of a 9mm carbine, but it's also true that my Scorpions are 10x my EDC pistols. I just can't stomach having a gun this good / fun, with the huge niche benefit of ultra-quiet operation, and having zero mags that are fit for long-term duty use. If that were truly the unavoidable long-term reality, I might throw in the .300 blackout towel at some point.

[Dan_S]

Have you tried the Manticore mags?

Just a thought.


That would absolutely stink to sink that kind of money into an SBR and have such a weird issue.

Would replacing the lower have any impact on these issues? I’d be very interested in the results.

[Naphtali]

Have you tried the Manticore mags?

Just a thought.


That would absolutely stink to sink that kind of money into an SBR and have such a weird issue.

Would replacing the lower have any impact on these issues? I’d be very interested in the results.

I bought 3 Manticore mags when they first came out a couple years ago. I and my father both shot them. All 3 mags reliably had several double-feeds (per loaded mag) in all tested Scorpions, with both of us shooting. I took them to the range twice ultimately, with identical results the 2nd trip, so I personally would never use them (in my guns anyway). I can't imagine my gun's tolerances would have anything to do with DFs - that should just be a mag / ammo phenomenon. And my ammo was 124gr Speer Lawman (very high quality for training - Glock uses this as its factory testing ammo)

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?195496-Repeated-Double-Feed-Failures-on-100-of-Manticor-Arms-32-rd-Mags-for-CZ-Scorpion-Evo

Regarding lower replacement, I don't think this is an option, as mine are SBR'ed and the lower is the SBR. Also I've never seen anything but the whole package for sale on CZ's site. Even if I just bought a new pistol to get a new lower, I'd have to NFA it (if it worked and I wanted to use it), and for all I know it could be the upper that has the main problem(s). An expensive gamble that I wouldn't take unless I was out of other options.

I guess I could swap the lowers I already have for fun, but I wouldn't leave it that way, as I'm pretty happy with the function testing I've done to date, so it wouldn't change anything. At this point I have only one Scorpion that I consider maybe imperfect specs-wise, and I don't want to muddy the waters swapping parts.

I'm just going to consider my Scorpion that did not work w/ Magpul mags to be possibly out of spec (though it runs fine with OEM mags) and demote it to training only. And hoping the CZ windowed mags run as well as their standard mags, but don't have feed lips that break.

[JRB]

I can understand your frustration given the sizeable investment in the Scorpions, and the large number of magazines you ordered.
But let me ask you this; why not take one or two of those Magpul mags, and tweak them with emory paper or a triangle file where the bolt interferes with them, and then do some live-fire function testing once you get the clearances happy? If you get a 'profile' sorted out that works 100%, it's a lot faster to duplicate those same results on subsequent magazines to suit your weapon.
Furthermore, one of your 'fixed' magazines may be of interest to Magpul, and providing such an example could show a measure of goodwill in helping them improve their product, which I bet would encourage a reciprocal effort from them toward making you a happy customer.

I've had to tweak or modify quite a number of mags over the years (including Magpul mags) to work perfectly in the intended weapon,. When the magazines are $10-20 each this does not bother me. If they were $50-75+ well, yeah, I'd be annoyed.
Again, I totally sympathize with the frustration you're dealing with, especially in regards to your total investment, but if you think of it as a polymer magazine and treat it as the inexpensive, consumable device it is, you might find a solution on your own.


As an aside - I noticed you caveated your mention of Speer 124gr Lawman to vouch for it as a good quality ammo; such things are absolutely unnecessary on P-F.
Tactical Timmy Tula Taurus nor his buddy Bubba Jim-Ball and their various biases and opinions tend to last long here on P-F vs the hard data, specification requirements, and long-standing SOP's of many of the top-shelf organizations represented by many P-F members.
Keep sharing the ammo spec in such conversations, as it's an important data point; but explaning what ammo is good and bad is not required. In situations like this, the ammo you use speaks for itself for better or worse. In this case, your ammo choice alone tells me that you're better informed and making more discriminating choices than most.

[Dan_S]

Naphtali

Could you swap out the lower with a lower from one of the Scorpions that functions with the mags, and test that?

It would be very interesting to me what the results would be.

[Naphtali]

Naphtali

Could you swap out the lower with a lower from one of the Scorpions that functions with the mags, and test that?

It would be very interesting to me what the results would be.

I would not have predicted this... the problem follows the Upper. It does not follow the lower. It does not follow the bolt when swapped alone.

A "good" lower + the "bad" upper will fail exactly as described previously. The "bad" lower + a "good" upper works as Magpul says is intended.

I then wondered it maybe the bolt was out of spec (the "bad" bolt being too tall), so I returned the guns to their original configuration, only with the bolts swapped. A "good" bolt + "bad" upper + "bad" lower fails. The "bad" bolt + "good" upper + "good" lower works.

I guess the "bad" upper's mating surface / cutout (yes you can laugh) and its takedown pin hole are cut slightly too high in the upper, leading to the entire lower sitting too high within the upper?

Also, just got a bunch of the CZ windowed mags today (part # 11355 with the different polymer from CZ's standard mag, where the feed lips crack), and all function fine at home (no live fire). Will see if these feed lips crack when I leave several of them loaded to 30 or 29 indefinitely, to test both the left & right feed lips.

I'm returning the PMags on Saturday 11-2-19, so any other requests by 11-1 would be great.

[Dan_S]

Naphtali

That’s what I wondered...


Surprising, to a certain extent, and adds another layer of complexity, but The upshot being it’s not the registered SBR component...any chance of getting CZ to take a look at this, and possibly get a different upper from them for T&E?

[Naphtali]

I can understand your frustration given the sizeable investment in the Scorpions, and the large number of magazines you ordered.
But let me ask you this; why not take one or two of those Magpul mags, and tweak them with emory paper or a triangle file where the bolt interferes with them, and then do some live-fire function testing once you get the clearances happy? If you get a 'profile' sorted out that works 100%, it's a lot faster to duplicate those same results on subsequent magazines to suit your weapon..

Because if I did this and it worked fine, I would not consider them fit for home defense, and would therefore return them anyway. Reason being that I'm already trying to avoid a known feed lip cracking problem in the original OEM mags, and I wouldn't trust my life on beta testing filed down PMag lips holding up over time. Or if they subsequently break during a new assault weapons ban, where you can't exchange broken mags (which was allowed in 1995-2005), then even if I just consider them training mags for now, then I'm screwed, beyond still having no mags that I trust for home defense.

Maybe paranoid, but I'm very wary of 3rd party products (unless extensively tested and made by well-known companies) and self-modification of geometry, in any critical part. Any filing at all, no matter how little, will weaken the feed lips.

I'd rather give the CZ windowed mags (11355) a chance first. If those crack eventually, then filed PMags will become the lesser evil. PMags are Plan B for now.



Furthermore, one of your 'fixed' magazines may be of interest to Magpul, and providing such an example could show a measure of goodwill in helping them improve their product, which I bet would encourage a reciprocal effort from them toward making you a happy customer.

Offered to do this (2 have been filed down as you described, but by cycling the bolt), and Duane asked me to just return them.



I've had to tweak or modify quite a number of mags over the years (including Magpul mags) to work perfectly in the intended weapon,. When the magazines are $10-20 each this does not bother me. If they were $50-75+ well, yeah, I'd be annoyed.
Again, I totally sympathize with the frustration you're dealing with, especially in regards to your total investment, but if you think of it as a polymer magazine and treat it as the inexpensive, consumable device it is, you might find a solution on your own.

It's not about the money at all, other than I'm unwilling to just buy more Scorpions to keep the ones that work with PMags. It's more that I wanted a subsonic suppressed long gun platform that I could trust like my AR15s. Meaning no weakened mags that otherwise function properly. I'm trying to convince my wife to train with and use this as her bedside long gun. Or her Post-another-Hurricane-Florence-might-need-a-long-gun-going-mobile gun.

I can't emphasize enough how much better the Scorpion shoots than a pistol, and nobody around me gets any hearing loss. I mean, it shoots better than my ARs, as it's practically recoil-free.

My suppressed DD SBRs are best for ending CQB threats, but everyone without ear pro goes half deaf in the process and gets permanent tinnitus. I did a lot of ENT back in med school, and these things really suck. Can't keep bedside Peltors for my German Shepherd, and I don't care what anyone says - he's a person, not a dog. I shoot Expert IDPA, and the professionals / top guys always smoke me like I'm a novice. If I were allowed to shoot a Scorpion SBR, I would at least tie and probably beat them consistently. The only downside vs an AR w/ quality JHP or Mk318 etc. ammo is the vastly inferior terminal performance of the 9mm. So I choose to keep the DD by my bed, but I despise the loudness downside, especially indoors.

And... while Magpul says I have only one problematic Scorpion, I'm still just skeptical about how much more difficult to insert the empty PMags are period, and the extra bolt friction you can feel even when the bolt doesn't stop. Duane says it's fine, but I sleep better with the super slick OEM mag functioning.



As an aside - I noticed you caveated your mention of Speer 124gr Lawman to vouch for it as a good quality ammo; such things are absolutely unnecessary on P-F.
Tactical Timmy Tula Taurus nor his buddy Bubba Jim-Ball and their various biases and opinions tend to last long here on P-F vs the hard data, specification requirements, and long-standing SOP's of many of the top-shelf organizations represented by many P-F members.
Keep sharing the ammo spec in such conversations, as it's an important data point; but explaning what ammo is good and bad is not required. In situations like this, the ammo you use speaks for itself for better or worse. In this case, your ammo choice alone tells me that you're better informed and making more discriminating choices than most.

Then you guys rock and that's great.

[Naphtali]

Naphtali

That’s what I wondered...


Surprising, to a certain extent, and adds another layer of complexity, but The upshot being it’s not the registered SBR component...any chance of getting CZ to take a look at this, and possibly get a different upper from them for T&E?

If I don't use PMags (= the windowed mags work out), then it's a non-issue. Again, 800 rds through it using OEM mags, and I thought it was perfect until the PMags (and maybe it is...). Call me pessimistic, but I'd say a 99% chance that if I sent it to CZ, they'd send it back and say it was fine.

Plus even a "good" Scorpion (for mine anyway) is still not as "good" using PMags compared to the OEM mags, as I elaborate on in my post above. That's not a live-fire judgment though. It is really hard - though possible - to insert an empty PMag on a closed bolt in a "good" Scorpion. I see this as too high a risk of failure while reloading in the panic of a firefight (if the bolt were closed for whatever reason).

I really try to keep and use weapons & accessories that I have no reason to doubt. And that work when someone is panicked. Difficult / complicated can = dead in a gunfight, when you did things just fine at the range. Everything goes to sh*t when you're being shot at, even if you've trained a lot... the only cure for this is getting hyper-trained professionally and/or being shot at a lot (= you're in a mil combat role) or just being freakishly naturally emotionally talented at receiving incoming fire.

[Dan_S]

True, however being a stickler for those little details, you’d better believe I’d be on CZ about this. Not in a bad way, but as a manufacturer I’d think they’d want to know and attempt to diagnose/resolve the issue.

Since they did work with magpul to develop the magazine, I’d expect that an upper issue in conjunction with those mags would be enough of a concern to dig into...simply if for no other reason than it isn’t the answer most anyone would anticipate, ie, having nothing to do with the lower, ie, the lower isn’t out of spec. :cool:

[Naphtali]

True, however being a stickler for those little details, you’d better believe I’d be on CZ about this. Not in a bad way, but as a manufacturer I’d think they’d want to know and attempt to diagnose/resolve the issue.

Since they did work with magpul to develop the magazine, I’d expect that an upper issue in conjunction with those mags would be enough of a concern to dig into...simply if for no other reason than it isn’t the answer most anyone would anticipate, ie, having nothing to do with the lower, ie, the lower isn’t out of spec. :cool:

I do plan to call them tomorrow and will post their response. There's some guy there now that answers both for parts and technical support (Jacob I think?) who sounds miserable to work there... he said - no joke - that I was 100% gtg with the PMags in the "bad" Scoprion where the bolt can completely stop on the feed lips, and the empty mag won't insert on a closed bolt, so long as it works in live fire, and I just insert on an open bolt. I mean, even Duane at Magpul said that's wrong. As does any degree of common sense.

Also the same guy I was trying to ask if the 922r floor plates / followers CZ sells for the original OEM mags were also intended for the newer windowed OEM mags, and he said "I just put them on one and they look fine - they will definitely work". I had to explain to him that his eyeballing things was not a proper way to determine whether it was truly the same part / specs... gave him the "my 5.56 round just fit and fired great in my .223 chamber" analogy... he then acted even more miserable. Put me on hold for 2 mins and said he asked someone else, and the answer was yes... so I still have this nagging doubt and decided to replace only the floor plates and not the followers (only needed 1 mag part for 922r compliance).

And oddly enough, he's also the guy who told me this week that CZ never increased the feed lip thickness, and all original OEM mags are the same in 2019 as they were back in 2014 or whenever. What. The. F**k. I mean I must have had 5 detailed conversations with other reps at CZ discussing the feed lips being thickened in 2016 a couple years back, and since thickening they'd had no reports of cracked feed lips (as of then). On m4c there are reports of 2017 cracked feed lips, so it's kind of irrelevant, but talking to this guy is like a Twilight Zone episode.

I'll try to talk to someone else. Was already going to call b/c I just noticed I can't find a serial # anywhere on the Scorpion lower... just the upper. If they've hidden it, then they did a ridiculously good job. Or they got some exception from the ATF to make the upper the firearm.

[Dan_S]

You have the worst luck talking to manufacturers ever. That’s crazy.

As to the lower/upper issue, it’s oretty unique to the Ar15 to have the lower as the serialized firearm component. Think FNC, FAL, G3, ad Infinitum. As I’m not up on Skorpions (but want one in an unexplainable sort of way) is hazard a guess that the upper indeed is the ‘firearm’

[fly out]

Was already going to call b/c I just noticed I can't find a serial # anywhere on the Scorpion lower... just the upper. If they've hidden it, then they did a ridiculously good job. Or they got some exception from the ATF to make the upper the firearm.

What did you put on your SBR paperwork?

[willie]

I have had similar problems with a S&W AR lower and Mag Pul mags. Same mags work in my Colt ARs.

I urge the op to talk with C.Z's gunsmith who will probably be crabby. Put up with him and ask him to direct op to another source. I would trust the floor plates. The miserable man may be the boss's son in law who is on a shit list at home and at work too.

[willie]

Error on my parent. No intention to post. Mods should delete.

[andre3k]

Oh I’m aware. You won’t see me at a Pressburg or Redback One class for the same reason.


Ooohhh, that would get your dick slapped on Primary and Seconday. I'm glad someone said it though. Not so much for the Lake Arthur thing but the whole getting drunk and shooting your brother in law thing.

[Wake27]

Ooohhh, that would get your dick slapped on Primary and Seconday. I'm glad someone said it though. Not so much for the Lake Arthur thing but the whole getting drunk and shooting your brother in law thing.

This is getting into a pretty deep thread drift but I loved the RB1 course I took and I’ve never heard anyone else drop knowledge bombs like Chuck does. I’d never heard of the cop thing until this thread, but with the 30 seconds of searching I did, I personally don’t really care.


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[kwb377]

The "upper" on the Scorpion is the serialized receiver and considered the firearm. There is no serial number on the lower trigger pack.

[Naphtali]

The "upper" on the Scorpion is the serialized receiver and considered the firearm. There is no serial number on the lower trigger pack.

Concurring - CZ warranty today said the "lower" is just a trigger housing and not considered a lower at all. The "upper" is the firearm.

Warranty was unable to confirm whether the 922r floor plates and followers are vetted for use w/ the windowed mags. The rep - who did seem intelligent and emotionally stable - said they looked compatible to him in his hands during my call, but he wanted to go up the chain to get an official answer and will email it. He agreed that a trivial discrepancy in the floor plate should be low risk, but the follower is much higher risk without CZ's official blessing.

[Naphtali]

True, however being a stickler for those little details, you’d better believe I’d be on CZ about this. Not in a bad way, but as a manufacturer I’d think they’d want to know and attempt to diagnose/resolve the issue.

Since they did work with magpul to develop the magazine, I’d expect that an upper issue in conjunction with those mags would be enough of a concern to dig into...simply if for no other reason than it isn’t the answer most anyone would anticipate, ie, having nothing to do with the lower, ie, the lower isn’t out of spec. :cool:

CZ warranty offered to look at the problem upper. He basically agreed that it's maybe in spec, and it's just a Magpul mag catch + PMag combo problem. Or maybe out of spec, but what do you do then...

-- You can't replace the upper as it's the firearm
-- You can't add material to the bottom of the upper to make the lower sit relatively lower
-- Filing material off the "ceiling" would make the bolt sit higher within the upper, and therefore further above the PMag. But you could make a good argument that this is insane.
-- And we couldn't imagine anything else they could possibly do as a fix, even if the upper were confirmed out of spec

So with the gun running fine with OEM mags, and there's no way in Hell I'd let them file my upper's ceiling just to insert a PMag (and now the gun won't shoot), I basically said what's the point of sending it in, and the rep more or less agreed.

He also made the obvious suggestion of putting the OEM mag catch back in, but:

-- this is a pain in the butt that I refuse to do if the OEM windowed mags work out
-- Magpul's mag catch is stupid superior to the OEM catch... I would rather run their catch with OEM mags than the OEM catch with PMags
-- There is now a report on m4c from another Scorpion user with my exact problem using PMags, and he has the OEM catch installed.

[Naphtali]

You have the worst luck talking to manufacturers ever. That’s crazy.

As to the lower/upper issue, it’s oretty unique to the Ar15 to have the lower as the serialized firearm component. Think FNC, FAL, G3, ad Infinitum. As I’m not up on Skorpions (but want one in an unexplainable sort of way) is hazard a guess that the upper indeed is the ‘firearm’

Wanting a Scorpion is extremely explainable after you shoot one, especially compared to a pistol at > 10 yds, and recoil / rapid fire, and transitioning rapidly between multiple targets. And especially in low light, vs anything but another RDS. And especially, especially without ear pro, vs any unsuppressed weapon or supersonic suppressed weapon.

Imo it's the perfect PDW, so long as the windowed mags hold up when stored loaded. The only improvement I'd make, given that it has almost no recoil, and they could have gone the Kriss Vector route of just using G21 mags or something, was if they'd chambered it in .40 or .45. Particularly for Fed HST (and Gold Dots to a lesser extent), the bare gel and 4 layer denim diameters are far superior in those calibers vs 9mm (the 9 to .40 jump is shocking in HST). And for those unlucky enough to get one that runs 147gr supersonic, it would solve that problem too.

[El Cid]

In my personal view CZ has no obligation to do anything about their gun not working with aftermarket mags. If their gun had problems with OEM mags then they’d be responsible to troubleshoot it. If they are offering to look at it free of charge they are going above and beyond IMO.

[fly out]

In my personal view CZ has no obligation to do anything about their gun not working with aftermarket mags. If their gun had problems with OEM mags then they’d be responsible to troubleshoot it. If they are offering to look at it free of charge they are going above and beyond IMO.

Not only aftermarket mags...aftermarket mag catch, too.

[Naphtali]

Not only aftermarket mags...aftermarket mag catch, too.

Which is part of the reason that I'm not asking CZ to look at anything, even though they offered. I think the burden is on Magpul to make sure their products work without pushing the envelope as far as they did with mag height.

[Trukinjp13]

I agree. No way am I laying this on the Scorpion and no way would I want to fuck something up that was reliable with FACTORY mags. In the thread about Magpul mags causing Glocks to be unreliable the common theme was do not blame the pistol for the aftermarket mags! There are simply too many other options and ESPECIALLY from the factory that work perfect.


Sweet rigs by the way! Jealous


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[dontshakepandas]

I finally got a chance to go shoot with my 4 Scorpion pmags yesterday and I had malfunctions with all of them. I'd get a failure to eject with an empty case stuck every 4-5 rounds.

This was using the Magpul magazine release. I didn't try with the factory release, because as was mentioned before, the Magpul release is much better.

The factory translucent magazines work fine as do my PGS hybrid mags. The pmags are on their way back to Brownells (who has the best return policy ever) and I have some windowed factory mags on their way to me.