Classes specifically for DA/SA pistols? Necessary or just take any class with a DA/?

[El Cid]

I wasn’t sure if I should post this here, the Training sub, or even GD. Mods feel free to relocate if appropriate.

I exist in a striker fired world. It’s my duty weapon and I embraced Glocks well over a decade ago. I actually like them too. They are all I carry. I use them in classes and competitions. But I have always been a Beretta 92 fan since the Air Force and I have one that comes out of the safe every now and then.

The thread we have where we pray monthly Dagga Boy will hold an AUG specific class got me thinking. Would there be any utility in a pistol class designed for TDA pistols? Or is the way we shoot pistols similar enough that I can just run the Beretta in any pistol class and get the reps I want? Where the AUG and AR have some key differences such as mag changes, bolt releases, etc, I’m not sure having a different trigger on a pistol is different enough.

And I don’t think anyone even teaches a class for TDA only guns. I could take a class with EL - training with him is on my bucket list anyway. But surely he has students shoot SFA guns in his classes right?

I won’t be carrying my Beretta, so it’s more of a want than a need. But I feel the urge to maintain some skills with a TDA pistol as a student and a firearms instructor. Maybe just spending more time working the trigger transition is enough?

Thoughts? Would there be merit in a TDA specific class? Or am I just overthinking it and just need to take a 2 day class with one to get the same result?

[Redhat]

I'd ask what you need / want out of the class? You looking to improve your skills with that specific pistol? Need to examine your goals first and see if you really need a special class to meet them.

You mentioned getting reps...can you get those on your own time without an instructor?

[El Cid]

I'd ask what you need / want out of the class? You looking to improve your skills with that specific pistol? Need to examine your goals first and see if you really need a special class to meet them.

You mentioned getting reps...can you get those on your own time without an instructor?

If I was a betting man I’d say I probably could get it on my own. But that’s the conversation I'm trying to start. I’ve been away from them for serious purposes for so long I don’t know what I don’t know.

I’m looking to be able to effectively and efficiently run a DA/SA gun for myself as well as teach other shooters the best techniques. While my agency doesn’t authorize them, I do have non-LE people ask me to help them shoot better off duty.

[Lon]

There was a Facebook post in the Rangemaster Instructor group that touched on this. DB suggested finding an instructor who has a high level of skill with a DA/SA and take a class from them. I don’t think it needs to be a DA/SA only class, but the instructor definitely needs to know how to run one. DB and EL immediately come to mind. Tom Givens as well. I really want to train with EL.

[El Cid]

There was a Facebook post in the Rangemaster Instructor group that touched on this. DB suggested finding an instructor who has a high level of skill with a DA/SA and take a class from them. I don’t think it needs to be a DA/SA only class, but the instructor definitely needs to know how to run one. DB and EL immediately come to mind. Tom Givens as well. I really want to train with EL.

That was my original plan. Take a Langdon Tactical class and use the Beretta. But the AUG class thread got me wondering. Lol!

ETA- my thought was to get the maximum result it needs to be an instructor who can troubleshoot and diagnose on a TDA pistol.

[Redhat]

I'd throw Dave Harrington in there as well.

What about your agency or academy instructors? They might also know someone locally.

[guymontag]

I don’t know your skill level so I hesitate to comment... but I’d say from my own experience that you DON’T need specific DA/SA training. It’s just two trigger presses. Train with EL as he has a reputation for it and it’s on your bucket list but I think it’s easy for enthusiasts and amateurs and professionals to overthink these things.

“ Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick.
After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick.
Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick”

[revchuck38]

Rather than look for a TDA-specific class, I'd look for a trainer who's been around long enough to be familiar with shooting TDA guns. Gray hair is an indicator. :) My perception is that a lot of the younger (<35 years old) trainers have come up almost exclusively on SFA guns. If there's a trainer you'd like to work with, I'd shoot him/her an email and ask.

Of the trainers on this forum, I can recommend Lee Weems as one familiar with TDA guns. IIRC, his first issue pistol was a TDA S&W .40 of some flavor. He was quite comfortable with me and my PX4.

[El Cid]

I'd throw Dave Harrington in there as well.

What about your agency or academy instructors? They might also know someone locally.

Thanks! I completely forgot about “Super Dave!”

[Jay Cunningham]

Platform specific training is mostly a gimmick.

I say this as someone who teaches a Kalashnikov class. However, it’s a six hour workshop limited to the deltas between an AR and AK. I try not to get high off the smell of my own farts.

If trainers routinely run mixed pump and auto loader shotgun classes (they do) then you don’t need a specialized semi auto handgun class.

If you still feel strongly perhaps seek out one-on-one coaching. I know people have gone to visit Bob Vogel one-on-one for a not unreasonable cost.

[rd62]

I took Ernest's class with my Beretta because its Ernest. There were strikers in the class and the instruction was not tailored to a specific action type from what I recall.

I'm not sure instruction specific to a particular actuon type is necessarily beneficial but I'm certainly not an expert.

[JSGlock34]

And I don’t think anyone even teaches a class for TDA only guns. I could take a class with EL - training with him is on my bucket list anyway. But surely he has students shoot SFA guns in his classes right?


I’ve trained with Ernest several times, both in open enrollment and private classes. The first time I took a class with him, he was still associated with S&W and shooting a M&P. I shot both a Glock and VP9 in his classes. Granted it was a private class, but when I shot my Brigadier Tactical, all the other shooters carried Glocks save for a lone 1911 aficionado.

I recommend him unequivocally regardless of your preferred trigger, but he’s definitely the Beretta expert.

[El Cid]

Platform specific training is mostly a gimmick.

I say this as someone who teaches a Kalashnikov class. However, it’s a six hour workshop limited to the deltas between an AR and AK. I try not to get high off the smell of my own farts.

If trainers routinely run mixed pump and auto loader shotgun classes (they do) then you don’t need a specialized semi auto handgun class.

If you still feel strongly perhaps seek out one-on-one coaching. I know people have gone to visit Bob Vogel one-on-one for a not unreasonable cost.

Thanks. I figured that might be the answer. I don’t feel strongly one way or the other. Just trying to see what the P-F community thoughts are on the subject. This is the place I tend to find the best and most well thought out information.

[LSP552]

I don’t think the class needs to platform specific. However, it does need to be with an instructor that knows how to teach TDA. Unfortunately, that’s not as common as it once was. I’d add Bruce Gray to the list of instructors that know how to teach TDA.

[Default.mp3]

Don't forget Mike Pannone.

Like most here, I have my doubts that a dedicated DA/SA class makes sense, but simply having an instructor well versed in it to drop a few nuggets here or there. I would hold the same for things like RDSes on handguns. Maybe with the proliferation of the STI guns in the tactical realm (unless it fades as quickly as the Hudson), we'll start seeing instructors start putting on SAO classes...

[David S.]

I'll put in a plug for Jerry Jones and his crew at Operation Specific Training (https://opspectraining.com/).

I've trained with most of the instructors mentioned in this thread. Most of the classes mentioned are fairly broad so relatively little time is dedicated to the minutia of operating the trigger.*** If your looking for a DA/SA specific class then I'd think trigger management minutia is what you're after.

The nice thing about the OpSpec Training Practical Fundamentals and Applied Fundamentals classes is that they focus hard on trigger control and the other fundamentals and TTPs are secondary. Most of the class is trigger control. Jerry is very competent with a DA/SA trigger and I'd guess at least half of their students shoot DA/SA guns in classes.



*** (That's not to an insult. They are all great instructors with great coursework. My website endorses all of them and if Super Dave regularly held classes I'd get him onboard too. )

ETA: LSP552 kinda beat me to it. I don't think Bruce is teaching much any more. I'm pretty sure Jones is doing most of the coursework for their operation these days.

[flyrodr]

El Cid PM sent.

[LSP552]

I'll put in a plug for Jerry Jones and his crew at Operation Specific Training (https://opspectraining.com/).

I've trained with most of the instructors mentioned in this thread. Most of the classes mentioned are fairly broad so relatively little time is dedicated to the minutia of operating the trigger.*** If your looking for a DA/SA specific class then I'd think trigger management minutia is what you're after.

The nice thing about the OpSpec Training Practical Fundamentals and Applied Fundamentals classes is that they focus hard on trigger control and the other fundamentals and TTPs are secondary. Most of the class is trigger control. Jerry is very competent with a DA/SA trigger and I'd guess at least half of their students shoot DA/SA guns in classes.

ETA: LSP552 kinda beat me to it. I don't think Bruce is teaching much any more. I'm pretty sure Jones is doing most of the coursework for their operation these days.

Jerry Jones is an outstanding instructor and definitely understands how to teach and diagnose TDA. The class I took had Bruce, Jerry Jones and Randy Lee teaching.

[Canyonrat]

At a good shop you should be ok, and also able to translate for yourself into DA/SA-ese. I took a class a few months back and was the only DA/SA in the crew, I mostly compensated on my own but to the instructors credit one of them came with a DA/SA pistol the second day, and they did make an effort to address differences when it came to how to manipulate the weapon.

If I could travel to a Langdon class of course that would be the ultimate but don't let it discourage you. Its a great opportunity to feel smug and privately superior. :rolleyes:

[YVK]

After I heard two reigning National champions teach a DA shot differently, one of them in the way that would make most DA/SA people yell "heresy", I came to a conclusion that there was no DA/SA specific training. There are instructors who poopoo DA/SA, and there are instructors who can shoot anything; that's my take on this subject.

[learnerpermitted]

I recently took the tactical pistol course from Ernest Langdon and he did touch briefly on the DA/SA but not too intensely and I’m guessing it was because he wanted to cater his training to everyone including the non-DA/SA shooters. That being said I recently switched to DA/SA in January and I found you can learn a lot from just googling and YouTubing pointers and lessons on how to master the DA/SA. Dry-firing will help a lot too. That should at least get you started until you find class that can help with your specific needs.

[Clusterfrack]

I think the most valuable classes are the ones that teach you how to learn and how to train. Ben Stoeger, Mike Seeklander, Gabe White, and Keith Tyler were the best I’ve trained with in this regard.

Getting some personal coaching on your trigger pull, grip, stance, and manipulation can be very helpful and save a lot of time and ammo.

DA/SA isn’t nearly as different as I expected when I switched. I don’t think it requires a special class.

[jetfire]

I think the most valuable classes are the ones that teach you how to learn and how to train. Ben Stoeger, Mike Seeklander, Gabe White, and Keith Tyler were the best I’ve trained with in this regard.

Getting some personal coaching on your trigger pull, grip, stance, and manipulation can be very helpful and save a lot of time and ammo.

DA/SA isn’t nearly as different as I expected when I switched. I don’t think it requires a special class.

I'd say that anything "different" about DA/SA vs Striker fired guns can be solved with the judicious application of dry fire.

[Sammy1]

Another vote for Jerry Jones at Operation Specific Training.

[Hambo]

You could probably add John McPhee to the list of guys who taught DA/SA.

Last time I went to a Givens class it was Glock-centric and I was given no special instruction on DA/SA. I don't know if that's how Tom rolls, or if it was because the group included a few dangerous people (I don't mean that in a good way). Slingshot slide release was taught exclusively, so I ignored it and used my slide release. There were a couple other minor things that didn't work for me or required me to adapt for the drill. It wasn't a big deal, but maybe if I'd been brand new it might have bothered me.

I think if you practice the differences yourself, you'll be OK. IME my biggest opportunity to fuck it up is the first SA shot, so I still run these drills all the time:
-draw and single shot, decock
-draw and two shots, decock
-draw and three shots, decock
-decock like a rabid monkey. DB says until it's subconscious.

[GardoneVT]

Why would you need a class around DA/SA? That’s like a driving school that only teaches you how to drive a Ford.

[David S.]

I'm not aware of any classes that are DA/SA specific. I am aware of several instructors that actually understand them enough to teach the nuances of DA/SA, and a bunch of instructors that don't.

[El Cid]

Why would you need a class around DA/SA? That’s like a driving school that only teaches you how to drive a Ford.

Is it? Or is it manual vs auto transmission? Or floor shifter vs paddle shifter?

Again... I’m not saying it’s necessary or not. I’m looking for input from our collective expertise.

[GJM]

Specialized classes exist for a few reasons — to give instructors something special to sell, and give students an opportunity to accelerate their specific knowledge by learning from someone else’s experience.

Compared to a striker or 1911, shooting a DA/SA requires knowing three things — pressing a DA trigger, making the DA to SA transition, and knowing when and how to decock the pistol. If you know how to shoot a DA/SA, these three things are obvious, but if you are not familiar with a DA/SA, you might not know what you don’t know. Unfortunately, the special sauce is the easy part, and the hard part is what you learn only through dedicated practice.

[El Cid]

Specialized classes exist for a few reasons — to give instructors something special to sell, and give students an opportunity to accelerate their specific knowledge by learning from someone else’s experience.

Compared to a striker or 1911, shooting a DA/SA requires knowing three things — pressing a DA trigger, making the DA to SA transition, and knowing when and how to decock the pistol. If you know how to shoot a DA/SA, these three things are obvious, but if you are not familiar with a DA/SA, you might not know what you don’t know. Unfortunately, the special sauce is the easy part, and the hard part is what you learn only through dedicated practice.

Seems logical enough. I have no problem putting in the work both live and dry fire. I’ve laid out of pocket for several classes and shoot matches as often as possible - usually monthly. I’m just looking to make sure I’m practicing correctly and not creating or reinforcing bad habits. Thanks!

[David S.]

As others have said. DASA is not space magic.

I'd guess the "hardest" part to learn, coming from a career shooting Glock, is how to run the DA trigger pull. That can be learned by watching Ernest Langdon's Fear Not the Double Action Shot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsoX26OhDCY) videos and a ton of dry practice.

Wall drill (http://pistol-training.com/drills/wall-drill)

[El Cid]

As others have said. DASA is not space magic.

I'd guess the "hardest" part to learn, coming from a career shooting Glock, is how to run the DA trigger pull. That can be learned by watching Ernest Langdon's Fear Not the Double Action Shot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsoX26OhDCY) videos and a ton of dry practice.

Wall drill (http://pistol-training.com/drills/wall-drill)

Good videos! Thanks! I’ll give those plate rack drills a go next time.

[DA_Auto]

Mussel memory will help a lot , try dry fire 10 times on DA then pull back the hammer and see if you pull the trigger at the same speed , I do .
Don't think about it to much , just practice . You might have a hard time going back and forth to a striker gun .
A 12lb hammer spring will help a M9

[David S.]

Additionally, decocking is an important part of the learning curve. Every string of fire finishes with a decock motion, even in dry practice where it’s not mechanically required.

When I first transitioned to DASA, I “decocked” everything, even the striker fired guns that I was plinking with in the side.

[JSGlock34]

I've shot a lot of TDA over the past few years. More than anything else I've practiced two shots to a 3x5 card from the draw, decock, holster. The press-out method is a good match for TDA guns, at least to start. Strangely I find drills where I am trying to meet a time standard work better for me than slow firing a DA shot. When I'm on the clock I find I keep the DA trigger moving subconsciously, whereas slow fire accuracy drills I tend to overthink the shot and stage the trigger.

Competition is a great test for the "when to decock" wiring. In practice I decock whenever I dismount the pistol but some USPSA stages challenged that thinking. Personally, I think the choice of when to decock is one of the deeper areas of the TDA manual of arms to explore as a student of the pistol.

[Yung]

In addition to what David S. has posted, here is another video which repeats some of the points made.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo6Ii19I4_8

Having taken a couple classes with Mr. Langdon earlier this year, the first two things that come to mind for DA guns were:

1) The first live fire exercises were five round strings at your own pace on the first couple dots of an LTT target, at three yards.

2) Students were occasionally reminded to decock, some more than others.

I first learned to shoot and carry P228s and 229s, but I am coming back to DA after a long striker-filled hiatus. Two additional things I know I can do to ease this transition is to break out the TDA version of Dot Torture for the first time, and pay attention to what I've been doing for singlehanded shooting on a Glock, because it is very likely I may need to do something different on a Beretta. I will also be retaking entry-level handgun classes and the practical shooting starter course at my local ranges, partially to test my DA trigger press and to test my discipline so I don't catch myself/get caught staying in single action where I shouldn't be.

[David S.]

Minor quibble. I don’t currently think the TDA version is necessary. The original version is perfectly usable for TDA.

[TCinVA]

You don't need a DA/SA specific class.

You just need an instructor who is a good coach and is able to actually shoot a DA/SA gun well to inform their ability to provide useful coaching to you on the weapon.

Admittedly that's not a super huge list.

[revchuck38]

Mussel memory will help a lot , try dry fire 10 times on DA then pull back the hammer and see if you pull the trigger at the same speed , I do .
Don't think about it to much , just practice . You might have a hard time going back and forth to a striker gun .
A 12lb hammer spring will help a M9

My mussel memory is that during a graduate seminar in New Brunswick, I found that boiled mussels are an acceptable substitute for boiled crawfish. :)

[El Cid]

In addition to what David S. has posted, here is another video which repeats some of the points made.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo6Ii19I4_8

Having taken a couple classes with Mr. Langdon earlier this year, the first two things that come to mind for DA guns were:

1) The first live fire exercises were five round strings at your own pace on the first couple dots of an LTT target, at three yards.

2) Students were occasionally reminded to decock, some more than others.

I first learned to shoot and carry P228s and 229s, but I am coming back to DA after a long striker-filled hiatus. Two additional things I know I can do to ease this transition is to break out the TDA version of Dot Torture for the first time, and pay attention to what I've been doing for singlehanded shooting on a Glock, because it is very likely I may need to do something different on a Beretta. I will also be retaking entry-level handgun classes and the practical shooting starter course at my local ranges, partially to test my DA trigger press and to test my discipline so I don't catch myself/get caught staying in single action where I shouldn't be.

Excellent video. Thanks! I agree with his comment about a DA trigger providing more feedback. I also like the part about how much finger goes on the trigger. Pat Mac taught to use more finger years ago and that was with Glocks. Dry fire and live fire with the Beretta I’ve found myself doing the same.

[Olim9]

As others have said. DASA is not space magic.

I'd guess the "hardest" part to learn, coming from a career shooting Glock, is how to run the DA trigger pull. That can be learned by watching Ernest Langdon's Fear Not the Double Action Shot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsoX26OhDCY) videos and a ton of dry practice.

Wall drill (http://pistol-training.com/drills/wall-drill)

As someone who started off with a P226 and STRUGGLED with DA/SA, that 3 part video helped me significantly during my development as a “”serious”” shooter.

[HCountyGuy]

This is a good topic because I was honestly thinking of taking an EL class solely for his insights on TDA. I’d still train with him otherwise, but as one of the few demonstrably highly proficient TDA shooters out there I figured there would be significant benefit to training with him using a TDA. Nothing against any other instructors who understand and can teach TDA, but Ernest seems to have become the face of running a TDA pistol.

I would read Todd’s thread on DA/SA pistols (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4212-General-Thoughts-on-DA-SA-Pistols), add in Ernest’s series on “Fear Not the Double-Action Shot” and get to dry-firing and live-fire when you can. One piece of advice I remember reading here was to make sure to de-cock even if you don’t fire a shot just to help ingrain it more as a habit.