Cooper Tunnels and Related Matters

[RJ]

Clusterfrack commented in a thread in GD about a competitor who was DQ'd after an interaction with a Cooper Tunnel:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38903-Stuff-seen-at-the-gun-range&p=941911&viewfull=1#post941911

Cypher asked a good question about what should have happened:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38903-Stuff-seen-at-the-gun-range&p=941913&viewfull=1#post941913

I did some research and commented in the thread about the event, quoting myself here:



Bearing in mind I was not there, etc., I had to look at that in slow motion to see what happened. I've never encountered one of these "Cooper Tunnels" in my (very) short USPSA history as a D shooter. Apparently each slat dislodged is a procedural, if I read rule 10.2.5 correctly. So his stage was effectively done when he went upright through the slats, with 6 slats at 10 a piece, that's -60 points?

Nothing against the competitor, and I hope he is ok. But as an opportunity to learn, just wanted to make a couple comments.

Maybe the stage construction contributed to the problem, given a target was available "in the tunnel" as the competitor decided to engage on the top of the pile of slats at the end of the tunnel length. Perhaps it could be anticipated that one or more slats at the end of the tunnel could come down and present a tripping hazard to a competitor, such that targets should maybe not be able to be shot until beyond (3 feet?) the end of the tunnel? I admit I know nothing about stage design; and this may be a stupid comment.

Of course by this point he was on a pile of wood sticks, and given he did not appear particular agile based on his gait, shooting the stage, he appeared to catch a foot at the awkward moment he was holding his pistol one-handed. Which of course whipped back beyond the 180 when he unsuccessfully balanced himself, going down hard onto the ground.


Hard to say what I would do in a tunnel, as mentioned, I've never seen one of these obstacles. I am 5'6", so on the lower end of stature where I could probably crouch-walk through and not disturb any material overhead.

I try very hard to keep a firm, two-handed, indexed finger grip, pointed down range, at all times. Being a lefty, my RO is typically on my left, and I try to make it very obvious where my finger is so he or she can see it, especially moving between shooting arrays of targets (which, shooing P, I am generally reloading anyway.)

I've encountered low ports, and will try to use my elbows to brace going down; point being if I was to fall I would fall forward, two handed, and accept that I would land prone but I WOULD HANG ON TO MY GUN very very tightly indeed. I don't see any circumstances between the load and make ready and the unload and show clear that I was not laser focused on keeping the muzzle downrange.

Anyway.

I have a match tomorrow (first one in a while) and this, while unfortunate for the competitor to get a DQ (again, hope he is ok), thought it could be an opportunity to learn something by asking a few questions from more knowledgeable folks like Clusterfrack here.

Since this post is more in the nature of USPSA specific stuff, if preferred I can start a thread on Cooper Tunnels in the comp section, as I did a search and didn't find one.

I didn't want to mix in the USPSA discussion in that thread, so decided to see if I could continue it here.

[RJ]

So, what are Cooper Tunnels?

Per the 1/1/19 Rulebook:

43585

Pretty straightforward. Further, the rulebook says you get a procedural penalty for each item you disturb, in Rule 10.2.5, as follows:

In a Cooper Tunnel, a competitor who disturbs one or more pieces of the overhead material will receive one procedural penalty for each piece of overhead material which falls during the course of fire. Overhead material which falls as a result of the competitor bumping or striking the uprights, or as a result of muzzle gases or recoil, will not be penalized.

[Clusterfrack]

...How to fall with a gun is a good topic for another thread, but I’ll say a few things here.

Top priority is not shooting yourself or anyone else. This is much more important than hurting yourself by falling.

Many uspsa guns are not drop safe.

When you fall, hold onto the gun and keep it pointing in a safe direction until you are stable again. Make sure your finger is indexed out of the trigger guard!

There are a lot of ways to fall, so it’s worth slow-motion practicing falling safely with an unloaded or blue gun.

Some people are physically challenged and can’t fall without serious injuries. However, the gun still has to take top priority. This is what the Cooper Tunnel guy didn’t do. He was trying to save himself, and risked a bunch of peoples lives by losing control of his Open gun, which almost certainly was not drop safe.

[RJ]

So, a few questions:

- What are the minimum / maximum height of a Cooper Tunnel, or is that left to the Stage Designer?

- What are the penalties for moving around the Tunnel?

- Should or should not USPSA include Cooper Tunnels in Stage Design, at all?

- Should a Cooper Tunnel be configured so that (as in the case of this competitor) there is no "shoot" opportunity so as to allow for a mis-step on a dislodged "roof" items just after the Tunnel is transited?

Thoughts?

[ranger]

I have not shot USPSA for a long time, but I was an active competitor for years in the Southeast - GA, SC, AL, FL. I do not ever remember seeing one of those tunnels at any IPSC/USPSA match.

During that time, we had some physically challenged shooters and the ROs always figured out a way to work around their challenges.

[Clusterfrack]

A good stage should have options. The penalty for going around the CT should be time or risk. In the Oregon Championship stage discussed above, a long legged person could run around the CT in about the same time a little ninja like me could run through it. Plus for low cap divisions the risk of a reload inside the tunnel affected the strategy.

I like a tunnel that’s just under 5’ tall.

This stage was a great example of how to do it.

[Zincwarrior]

So, a few questions:

- What are the minimum / maximum height of a Cooper Tunnel, or is that left to the Stage Designer?

- What are the penalties for moving around the Tunnel?

- Should or should not USPSA include Cooper Tunnels in Stage Design, at all?

- Should a Cooper Tunnel be configured so that (as in the case of this competitor) there is no "shoot" opportunity so as to allow for a mis-step on a dislodged "roof" items just after the Tunnel is transited?

Thoughts?

What the heck is a Cooper Tunnel doing in a shooting competition? That tests youth, not shooting prowess.

[bofe954]

What the heck is a Cooper Tunnel doing in a shooting competition? That tests youth, not shooting prowess.

USPSA isn't just a test of "shooting prowess".

[GJM]

Here is my Cooper tunnel advice — remove your hat or wear it backwards.

[Cypher]

The only time I recall falling with a gun I slipped on some ice at work and I landed on my (employer's) M&P .40 in the holster. (that left a mark).

Even apart from competition what if you trip in a class? Or the dog hits you in the back of your leg as your putting your gun in its holster.

I think Clusterfrack covered it. I know my Glock is drop safe so unless maintaining control of the gun was critical like if I was in a fight I think I'd drop the gun

[Zincwarrior]

USPSA isn't just a test of "shooting prowess".
As a USPSA shooter, that's just stupid.

[Caballoflaco]

As a USPSA shooter, that's just stupid.

Everybod should be allowed and encouraged to compete who safely can. However, if your athletic abilities are limited due talent, or health problems you shouldn’t expect the sport to change to increase your chance of placing well. The last thing uspsa needs to do is to dumb down the non-marksmanship athletic aspects like fast running starts/stops, leaning shots etc. so that boomers can shoot the equivalent of a cowboy action match with open pistols.

[Zincwarrior]

Everybod should be allowed and encouraged to compete who safely can. However, if your athletic abilities are limited due talent, or health problems you shouldn’t expect the sport to change to increase your chance of placing well. The last thing uspsa needs to do is to dumb down the non-marksmanship athletic aspects like fast running starts/stops, leaning shots etc. so that boomers can shoot the equivalent of a cowboy action match with open pistols.

Why? It's shooting not gymnastics. If you want to stage a gymnastics match play fucking gymnastics games.

[Caballoflaco]

Why? It's shooting not gymnastics. If you want to stage a gymnastics match play fucking gymnastics games.


The Cooper tunnel in the op wasn’t mandatory, the shooter was just being a douche and he’s lucky somebody didn’t get hurt. Unlike a lot of sports, there are ways that physically limited people still can compete in USPSA, which is cool even if they don’t have a chance to actually win.

If you want to test pure shooting skills without movement shoot bullseye or steel challenge. Part of what draws folks to uspsa are the additional physical aspects of the sport besides shooting that other gun games don’t offer. Or, be like Glenn and plenty of other older or physically limited folks and participate at the level you’re safely capable of without bitching that you can’t place well because of your blown out knees or bad back. Just don’t try to turn the sport into the USPSAARP; there are other games for that.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Zinc made me laugh on that one. It's acknowledged that USPSA has no reality except for practicing skills. I will opine (flame on) that the Cooper tunnelm specifically, is idiotic in a gun match and shooting guns in a venue that might cause a drop, that are not drop free is equally idiotic. IDPA isn't realistic either but it seems a touch more sensible as a focus on shooting. Biathlon seems a better athletic shooting event.

If the game is gymnastics and athletic - USPSA needs a gymnastics doc checkup for all competitors with the associated probe of ...

Same old debate of the two sports. Our opinions will differ. I don't find the running that problematic in USPSA. That tunnel, though, bothers me.

Golf should add a timed component of running 250 yards to get to your next shot on a long hole.

[miller_man]

Everybod should be allowed and encouraged to compete who safely can. However, if your athletic abilities are limited due talent, or health problems you shouldn’t expect the sport to change to increase your chance of placing well. The last thing uspsa needs to do is to dumb down the non-marksmanship athletic aspects like fast running starts/stops, leaning shots etc. so that boomers can shoot the equivalent of a cowboy action match with open pistols.

As a USPSA shooter as well, I totally agree with this.

I’ve been at the local set up and have seen the guys back off a low port or kneeling position because “guys with bad knees” and such. I thought that was pretty weak.

USPSA is a whole lot more than just shooting the targets for best points, - the speed, agility and physical ability combined with the shooting, that is a large part of what makes it really good to me.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I think my MRIs handle
“guys with bad knees” reality. Nothing like coming down the stairs and having shooting pains that might bowl you over. Don't need that during gun manipulation. In fact, there was a stage to kneel behind a barrel. The knee's revenge struck and over I went. Gun down range and still behind cover, so I kept shooting. However, a team of horses got me back up.

The answer is clear. Choose a discipline that fits you. The discipline can decide what is important. As I said, the practical shooting aspect of USPSA is long gone. IDPA is toying with doing that now, with constant rule changes. The movement and cover changes watered down its already limited handle on reality.

Also, we face the goal of the match situation - improving your own skills or winning against other folks. Personal improvement is my goal and if a sport throws silliness in the way of that, it's not my game or I will shoot it and take the penalties.

[wtturn]

Maybe we should run all stand-and-shoot standards and classifiers so as to accommodate the olds and the fats.



Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

[Clusterfrack]

I like USPSA more than any other shooting sport because of hit factor scoring and physical and strategic challenges. Also, it is well accepted that USPSA is among the best ways to develop skills that matter in a real gunfight.

There are Senior and Super Senior categories to acknowledge the fact that age is a handicap. I’ve seen super old guys doing their best under very challenging circumstances and am inspired by that. That’s going to be me someday.

But I want to keep the sport about shooting at the limits of human performance.

[jetfire]

Why? It's shooting not gymnastics. If you want to stage a gymnastics match play fucking gymnastics games.

There are plenty of shooting sports that don't require any sort of athleticism whatsoever. The level of physicality in USPSA fell off for some time, but in the current era it's returning, and that's a good thing for the sport. If you want a pure test of marksmanship without any movement, there's Steel Challenge. If you want some dynamic movement, there's IDPA.

[Hambo]

Just don’t try to turn the sport into the USPSAARP; there are other games for that.

That's the quote of the year. Seriously, if you can't negotiate a Cooper tunnel, you've already got bigger problems than your match score. I say this as one who is eligible for AARP membership but not Medicare.

[Jim Watson]

Nope.
That is what Penalty In Lieu Of Performance is for. I will bypass the Cooper Tunnel (if I ever see one, which I have not so far.) and motor on. Slowly but safely.

I have been on Medicare for nine years now, and I get a lot of entertainment over internet posts of "they ought to make this" and "they ought to do that."
Well, unless it is something dependent on microelectronics or ersatz materials, they probably have and it didn't sell.

[olstyn]

Nope.
That is what Penalty In Lieu Of Performance is for. I will bypass the Cooper Tunnel (if I ever see one, which I have not so far.) and motor on. Slowly but safely.

Exactly this. There is no need to remove physical challenge from the sport when there are already rules allowing alternatives for those who can't complete a given physical challenge. Yes, there's a scoring penalty, but if any given competitor is not agile enough to move through a Cooper tunnel safely, then they're likely somebody who moseys through a stage rather than running. People who don't at least move briskly aren't going to be competing at the highest levels regardless, and one penalty isn't likely to be the make or break difference in their final match score. IMO there is no shame whatsoever in taking the Penalty in Lieu of Performance in these situations. The person in the video was being an ass, and paid for it with a DQ.

All that said, I've yet to see a Cooper tunnel at any of the matches I've attended here in MN. I do remember shooting from a wobble bridge once, and a few balance beams here and there, as well as a barrel start where you had to haul ass for 20+ yards uprange between engaging two arrays of targets, so we definitely do have physically challenging stages here. Are Cooper tunnels common in other regions?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

As far as the elderly sedately moving - IIRC, in the Luby's massacre, two elderly women at their elderly pace removed themselves and lived. Other people were frozen in place and died. We all have our limits. If scenario introduces a physical challenge that is a safety hazard, it should be rethought. I still think the tunnel is a stupid nuance, penalties for slats - what does that have to do with anything? I'd take the penalty as a old fart, the tunnel would not teach me anything. Now, in Dave Spaulding's auto class, we old farts had to bail out of a truck, take position to shoot under the truck. That I did as it was relevant. It did turn my forearms wonderfully black and blue as I tend to bruise easily (meds). At work (PC place), folks asked if I fell down as old farts do. I said, it was from bailing out a truck in firearms class. Horrors, horrors. Students thought it was neat (TX).

[olstyn]

If scenario introduces a physical challenge that is a safety hazard, it should be rethought.

At least in the context of the video in question, I would argue that the physical challenge in question was only a safety hazard because the competitor stupidly made it into one when it didn't need to be.


I still think the tunnel is a stupid nuance, penalties for slats - what does that have to do with anything?

Can't really disagree with you on that particular point; Cooper tunnels do seem a bit silly to me. That said, it's a game, not reality; some of the challenges presented may have nothing to do with "real-world" scenarios, and that's fine. On that note, I was at a match this fall where there was an unloaded barrel start with only one target - a single piece of steel at about 50 yards. Realistic? Nope - IMO all unloaded starts are completely unrealistic, as any time I have a gun on me, it's loaded. Fun/challenging? Absolutely.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We do stages, where you start with a loaded handgun and the carbine unloaded and magazines staged with it. I imagine folks keep a long arm around that isn't loaded. My home defense long arm does have a mag in it but not chambered. People might vary on this.

I think the slats was what impressed me as stupid. Going through tight spaces, that's ok. We've done seated truck start stages and the truck has been known to get shot.

[wtturn]

You boys might want to realize the Cooper Tunnel is simply a convenient facsimile for any number of physical crouching challenges that would be hard to otherwise replicate on a stage, considering space, safety, and simplicity factors.





Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

[TheRoland]

You boys might want to realize the Cooper Tunnel is simply a convenient facsimile for any number of physical crouching challenges that would be hard to otherwise replicate on a stage, considering space, safety, and simplicity factors.





Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk

I believe it was originally supposed to simulate incoming fire, back before IDPA had cornered the "we're tactical, really!" ruleset.

I think Area 7 had one a few years ago, but I only saw it in the bay from a distance, and didn't shoot the match.

[bofe954]

I've shot 2 matches with cooper tunnels. Had to retrieve a loaded gun and shoot out of that stripped out helicopter shell in Arizona. Climbed in and out of, and shot out of a handful of stripped out cars. Ran on some balance beam type stuff and some wobbly bridge type stuff.

I'm old enough that I feel like I am at a disadvantage on some stages with low ports, etc. I am losing weight and trying to increase my flexibility because of this. Which will hopefully help the rest of my life out too.

The most dangerous matches I feel that I have shot by far were caused by mud. Plain jane stages that were just slippery.

I have seen 4 or 5 people fall during matches. One was on wet grass, the rest...tripped on 2X2 fault lines.

[Zincwarrior]

I believe it was originally supposed to simulate incoming fire, back before IDPA had cornered the "we're tactical, really!" ruleset.

I think Area 7 had one a few years ago, but I only saw it in the bay from a distance, and didn't shoot the match.

Don't they know competition will get them killed on da streets!

[TheRoland]

Don't they know competition will get them killed on da streets!

I'm not sure they had invented streets when these were first in vogue.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

It will get you killed in the Holland tunnel. Why not ditch the slats for something that won't be so silly? Have a tarp or something like that.

[BN]

IPSC in the beginning was pretty physical. The Cooper Assault Course had you going through a Cooper Tunnel, then holstering your pistol and going over a 6 foot tall wall. Sometimes they would even nail a 2x4 to the wall 2 feet up from the ground for the weaklings to get a start. Then there was the Rhodesian Wall where you had to hang off a rope with one hand while shooting around the wall. Pretty tame any more. ;)

The guy who tripped was being a Dick and deserved any and all penalties he got. Should have been banned.

[BN]

Here is my Cooper tunnel advice — remove your hat or wear it backwards.

Also, if your magazines stick up above your back, they can catch boards. Testify. LOL

[Medusa]

Also, if your magazines stick up above your back, they can catch boards. Testify. LOL

No lie there. I wouldn’t have knocked that slat down (as i explained in the other thread) with my idpa stuff, but with the daa belt and big mag carriers...it meant a fallen slat after I was done shooting and doing my unload and show clear. I’ll get it right next time, plus I think ima switch to idpa gear for most everything.

[0ddl0t]

Overhead material which falls as a result of the competitor ... striking the uprights ... will not be penalized.
So if you want to be cute, kick the uprights hard enough to knock down the whole shebang?


What the heck is a Cooper Tunnel doing in a shooting competition?
Simulated gunfight after attempting to take cover under something like a semi-trailer?

[Zincwarrior]

So if you want to be cute, kick the uprights hard enough to knock down the whole shebang?


Simulated gunfight after attempting to take cover under something like a semi-trailer?
USPSA is simulated gunfighting? :cool:

Don't they know Da Streetz will get you killed in competition! :p

[Jim Watson]

IPSC in the beginning was pretty physical. The Cooper Assault Course had you going through a Cooper Tunnel, then holstering your pistol and going over a 6 foot tall wall. Sometimes they would even nail a 2x4 to the wall 2 feet up from the ground for the weaklings to get a start. Then there was the Rhodesian Wall where you had to hang off a rope with one hand while shooting around the wall. Pretty tame any more. ;)

The guy who tripped was being a Dick and deserved any and all penalties he got. Should have been banned.

I had an old gunzine with cover showing a then IPSCer in mid air after going over a wall. He is in a semi-crouched position to cushion the landing, but the gun is level and coming up toward the next target. Shai Dorsai!

I remember the debates between the Martial Artists and the Gamesmen of the early 1980s. The Gamesmen won and such things as stock gun matches and concealment matches faded away.