KSTG Match at the NRA Range: Tu 1-May

[ToddG]

RESULTS ARE POSTED HERE (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3890-KSTG-Match-at-the-NRA-Range-Tu-1-May&p=68943&viewfull=1#post68943).



Signups have already begun. I just received an email from the range telling me they began taking names yesterday. There are still slots available.

KSTG (http://pistol-forum.com/kstg) match
Tuesday 1-May-2012
$25
Estimated Round Count: 50-60
Squads begin at 5pm, 6pm, 7pm, 8pm, and 9pm. Six people maximum per squad.

You can call the NRA Range @ 703-267-1402 to reserve a slot.

[bdcheung]

Dang. They're closed today but I'll call first thing in the AM.

[Matt O]

Dang. They're closed today but I'll call first thing in the AM.

Actually, I just called and signed up for an 8pm slot so apparently someone is there answering the phones even though the range isn't open to the public today.

I'm excited to finally be able to go to one of these. For the previous ones I always seemed to have a scheduling conflict or I didn't call fast enough to reserve a spot.

[MikeyC]

The phone automatically go to the "range closed" message when the lines are busy

[bdcheung]

I got a callback and am in for the 8pm slot.

[LittleLebowski]

5 o'clock.

[Chris Rhines]

I'm in at 7pm.

-C

[abu fitna]

See yall at 5.

[MDS]

In at 9, great timing for a trip to nova.

[smithjd]

I will be there at 8p...all warmed up from this upcoming weekend's AFHS class. Which, is good because I haven't picked up a gun in three weeks, first time in over 23 years...

[televiper]

A buddy and I are signed up for 9pm. He is a shooter but hasn't done competition or tactical shooting before. If I work with him some this weekend on holster work and the extra particulars and stringency of safe handling rules in a down-range environment, will his participation be welcome? I ask because when I came out to the first KSTG, the lady at the sign-in desk asked if I'd ever shot in competitions before (I had) with the tone and look of an unspoken "if you say no, you may not get to play."

[ToddG]

A buddy and I are signed up for 9pm. He is a shooter but hasn't done competition or tactical shooting before. If I work with him some this weekend on holster work and the extra particulars and stringency of safe handling rules in a down-range environment, will his participation be welcome? I ask because when I came out to the first KSTG, the lady at the sign-in desk asked if I'd ever shot in competitions before (I had) with the tone and look of an unspoken "if you say no, you may not get to play."

When he registered, he should have been asked if he has formal training or experience shooting from a holster. If yes, he's fine. If no, he should not have been given a slot.

Essentially, remember this is a match and not a class. If he knows the rules of the game and the safety requirements, he's fine. If not, and he violates a safety rule, he'll be DQd. I don't say that to sound harsh, it's simply a reality of running matches like these.

[bdcheung]

Hey all,

I won't be able to make the match tonight, so my 8pm slot is up for grabs. Gotta do the daddy-to-be thing tonight and take care of a number of errands. Plus the wife is in full nesting mode so my Honey-Do list is rather full.

Todd, let me know if there's anything I need to do to free up the slot. I called the range but got the voicemail.

[LittleLebowski]

My co-worker's 5PM slot just became open. PM me for details. I tried calling the range twice and didn't get an answer.

[Chris Rhines]

Anyone have a non-longslide Glock I can borrow for the 7pm slot?

Thanks,
Chris

[Vinh]

Chris,

I won't be at the match, but I've got a 17 with Trijicon night sights and a 19 with Warren/Sevigny sights that you're welcome to borrow. I am near 66 on the way to the range. Check your PM for my number to make arrangements.

[cgcorrea]

If that falls through, I'll be there for the 7:00. I have a G19 that I won't be using. It has Ameriglo Defoor sights, OEM "-" connecter, and gen 2(Slick) GFA. OEM extended slide-stop as well. You're more than welcome to it. Let me know.

[LittleLebowski]

I got a hold of the NRA range to let them know about the open 5PM slot.

[Dropkick]

Hey all,

I won't be able to make the match tonight, so my 8pm slot is up for grabs. Gotta do the daddy-to-be thing tonight and take care of a number of errands. Plus the wife is in full nesting mode so my Honey-Do list is rather full.

Todd, let me know if there's anything I need to do to free up the slot. I called the range but got the voicemail.

Hey, did anyone take that slot?
And/or are there any slots open for the time frame or later?

[LittleLebowski]

Blew that one out my ass.....

[JV_]

I have plenty of room for improvement too.

[Chris Rhines]

Don't we all.

[cclaxton]

Thanks to the SO's and the NRA Range Staff for the well-run KSTG match. Good COF, light fixture bonus points, and overall good fun shooting. Thanks to all the volunteers. Stage 4 reminded me how important my safety glasses are.

Looking forward to the next one. Memorial Day is it?
CC

[Dropkick]

Glad I made it out.
Thanks again to everyone who helped with it.
With it being my first KSTG match, my score is probably poop, but I'm really glad I made it out. It's given me some insights into what sort of things I should be working on, and other things I probably don't as much. I'm looking forward to the next one!

[jaywade]

thanks again to the staff, tonight was my first KSTG match, I had a lot of fun... I will be back...curious how quickly is the scoring posted?

[MEH]

Generally, results are posted within 24 hours.

[jaywade]

Generally, result are posted within 24 hours.

glad to hear that, I'm sure I'm in the bottom third but curious , it was a alot of fun.

[MDS]

Another satisfied customer. Thanks to everyone who made it such a pleasant experience. I'll be prepared with more loaded mags next time.

As for the results, the bad news is that I've got a lot to work on. The good news is that each weakness in my shooting is another reason to hit the range. :)

[Matt O]

This was my first KSTG match as well and it was a helluva lot of fun. My thanks go out to all of the volunteers who helped put the match on as this truly is a fantastic opportunity to practice things like shooting on the move and target transitions that we just can't do in a normal range session - all with the added stress of the timer and spectators of course.

While I'm generally happy with my performance given it was my first match, I also identified quite a few areas for improvement. I made one big mistake halfway through one of the stages by choosing not to take the half second to adjust my grip (which had gotten screwed up somehow) and my accuracy suffered quite a bit as a result. I've been replaying that stage over and over in my mind since I left the range. Anyone else been dwelling on/analyzing their mistakes constantly this evening? :o

[ToddG]

Results in PDF format:
743

Detailed results in PDF format:
744


TrophyClassTotalPoints Down High Overall1.Todd GreenM33.191 1st A-class2.Chris RhinesA36.864 1st B-class3.Josh SavaniB42.655 1st DA/SA4.James VentreB44.826 5.Joseph ConnersA45.671 1st Major6.Jay SmithU47.614 7.Matt O’MearaU49.477 8.Jack BlendellU51.965 9.Darren LaSorteU52.8310 1st C-class10.Gene GerhiserC56.7710 11.Michael HarnageB57.195 1st D-class, 2nd DA/SA & 2nd Major12.Julian GaetaD57.813 13.Mario SantanaU59.480 14.Chris GoodrichC61.328 15.Ed LynchC62.734 16.Tom FarleighU64.940 17.John GainesU65.253 18.John FrazerU65.772 19.Matt DogaliU72.881 20.Chris CorreaU72.9310 2nd D-class21.Steve GonsalvesD74.7912 22.Baxter SheppersonB76.5611 23.Tom LindermanU76.971 24.Daniel DiggsD77.031 25.Cody ClaxtonD80.7711 26.Troy HammondU83.7414 27.Brad SmithD88.5810 28.Matt MartinD90.835 29.Josh ReynoldsD93.6417 30.Joshua WorkD95.9520 31.George SnyderD99.867 32.Tony IannarelliU101.001 33.Ricardo AlexanderC101.2520 34.Bonlyn HawleyD102.508 35.Matt MurphyU122.8914 36.Jason LormoreU125.4831

Major kudos to JConn, joshs, JV, and MEH for designing and running one of the best matches ever at the NRA!

[televiper]

You dwell on things you think you've messed up hard, but the bar for what counts as 'messed up hard' gets higher and higher as you get more experience. I've done 4 KSTGs, and in one I got DQ'ed from the match for spilling some water, and in another I accidentally threw my last magazine across the range during a qualifier. I relive those now, but I'm sure they will be eclipsed by even more stupid things as time goes on ;)

[JConn]

I think one of the reason matches are so valuable is that under stress your body will do things it doesn't normally do resulting in mistakes that would never normally happen. While a match is certainly no where near the stress levels of a defensive gun use, at least your heart rate is up, and your performance has some meaning. The more I do it, the better I get at it. In my profession we talk about having layers of preparedness. In music, its rhythms, then notes, then phrasing, then polish, then more polish, and so on. What generally happens under stress is we lose the last layer or two. So far, what I've experienced shooting reflects this. My draw and press out that I work on every week seems to devolve significantly at matches. What is key, is that your practice is detailed and frequent enough to ensure that the layers lost are not crucial, and that you just lose some of the polish. For me this means my first hit on an index card at seven yards in practice might be 1.8, in match or stressful conditions, it might be 2.0 or slower. I do however, generally hit that card, and for my current skill level, I view this as progress.

[abu fitna]

You dwell on things you think you've messed up hard, but the bar for what counts as 'messed up hard' gets higher and higher as you get more experience. I've done 4 KSTGs, and in one I got DQ'ed from the match for spilling some water, and in another I accidentally threw my last magazine across the range during a qualifier. I relive those now, but I'm sure they will be eclipsed by even more stupid things as time goes on ;)

Right there with you on this. I fumbled a mag on the second to last stage in the same fashion, and didn't reset properly for the last stage forcing a reload that shouldn't have entirely been needed otherwise (and compounded this by a focus error while engaging after the reload and dropping shots I should not have been dropping as I was cursing myself for my own stupidity.)

But this is why we train and test. Every lesson learned from these moments we revisit is one more step towards locking down Murphy. And as we inevitably face it again in another form of the kind of error caused by the fragile human machine under stress, it is one more experience that helps us remain adaptable and fight through the less than ideal situations that we may find ourselves forced to deal with.

Thanks again to the folks for a very good match. As always a pleasure to shoot with you gentlemen.

[CuriousG]

The match was fun as usual - thanks for putting it on. That said - good grief am I slow. I recently switched from standard Novak 3 dots on my M&P to Warren 2 dots and the last two matches my performance has gone the opposite direction. Initially it seemed like it would be faster but I apparently need more practice time as my accuracy at speed has suffered. Any tips on the transition are welcome.

[ToddG]

I'm genuinely impressed to see folks analyzing what didn't work rather than just looking at scores and claiming victory (or defeat). Last night's match was particularly technical in that four of the five stages benefited tremendously from using the proper game strategy. There's a very definite line between the people who shot those stages the "right" way and those who didn't.

It's therefore important to keep in mind that success at the game doesn't necessarily reflect superior ability outside of the game. Yes, the guys with the top scores also tend to be very strong shooters. But the reason they shot the match in half, a third, or even a quarter the time as others had as much to do with knowing how to play the game as it did knowing how to shoot well.

The only stage that was more realistic than technical was the last one, and ironically we saw a lot of people try to game it... with little success. We also saw some folks who tried to turn it into something it wasn't -- purposely staying at close contact range when they could have created distance for safety and better shooting advantage -- and that cost them, as well.

Really quick, and I apologize we didn't do video:

Stage 1, the 15yd popper followed by the 8yd run up to the barricade to hit 2 head shots. There were two "game" aspects of this stage. First, run when you're covering distance, don't walk. Second, know how to set up as you step into a shooting position so you can break your next shot as early as possible rather than walking up to the box, planting your feet, and only then begin to look for the target.

Stage 2, the maze of no-shoots. You were given two minutes to walk through this shooting problem. Few if any competitors used this time well. You walked up, looked at where the targets were, put yourself in a position where you could hit them, then walked off. Did you look down to see where your feet were so you could come to that same position again on demand? When we got our walkthrough, I found the spot I wanted to use for shooting the right and center targets -- which were both accessible from one position -- and then looked on the ground. There was a divot in the floor. I knew that if my right foot was about six inches to the outside of that mark, I was in the right place. So when the RO said "standby" I looked down at that spot rather than looking forward at the targets. As soon as the buzzer went off, I moved my foot to where it needed to be... and was instantly in the right place. Also, a number of people failed to listen to the stage instructions and shot 2 rounds at each target instead of 3. It was stated at least twice in every walkthrough, and often you got to see multiple competitors run through the stage before you. If you're not listening to instructions and you're not watching the people who go before you, you're hurting yourself.

Stage 3, the 2-2H-5-2H-2 stage. Many people drew to the close 5-shot target and then started going back and forth shooting the farther targets. The distance between targets was minimal. The fastest way to shoot that stage was to go from L to R (or R to L depending on what's most comfortable for you). Also, a lot of people got themselves vapor-locked and once they began taking head shots, fired head shots on every single target instead of the just the two with black hard cover bodies. Think about what you're going to do before the buzzer goes off. Have a plan that fits within the stage requirements and then execute that plan as best you can.

Stage 4, the five steel and 5-shot paper. This stage was a great example of how "watching the people who shot before you" can also cause trouble. Often, the first shooter in the squad would engage the paper target first and then pretty much everyone followed after. The problem is that isn't the best attack strategy for the stage. There are a minimum of 10 shots required, and you start with 11 in the gun. That means, if you want to avoid a reload (which will cost you from 2-5 seconds depending on the shooter) you need to manage your ammunition. If you shoot the steel first, you know going into the paper target whether you can afford to push a little bit and risk needing an extra shot or, if you needed an extra shot on the steel you know to back off and get your hits on the paper. Instead, quite a few folks fired 6, 7, 8, or more rounds at the paper and forced themselves into needing a reload when they switched to the steel. Also, obviously, given how close you might be to using up all the ammo in the gun, the smart money was on taking the time to get solid hits, especially on the steel. Guys who had more than one miss on the steel also forced themselves into needing a reload.

Stage 5, 5 retreating and 5 oblique. This stage wasn't terribly technical. The major mistake people made was trying to force the first target to be a close contact fight. The smarter move was to make distance as quickly as possible which put you over the fault line and got you in the required position for shooting the second target without having to look down to check your foot position. Guys who crawled backwards trying to shoot from retention not only hurt their scores but also practiced purposely staying within weapons retention distance when they didn't have to.

Go back and look at the scores from last night. I bet a Dave Sevigny or Rob Leatham could have shot the match in under 20 seconds.

[Mortalpawn]

Stage four killed me - I was the one in the 8pm round who hit the large steel popper at least five times and it did not go down until I double tapped it really quick. I had to laugh after a while because I just kept on hitting it, but it would not drop.

I was told afterwards that I could have stopped shooting the popper and challenged it - does anyone have the rule reference for that as I want to understand the rule better?

[LittleLebowski]

That was some nice shooting with that PPS, MP.

[MEH]

I was told afterwards that I could have stopped shooting the popper and challenged it - does anyone have the rule reference for that as I want to understand the rule better?

II.A.6.c

[....A shooter can only
challenge the calibration of a target if it is left standing; knocking down
the target during a course of fire cancels any challenge.....]

[Dropkick]

Like I said earlier, it was my first match, and my score / performance certainly shows it. So take all this with a grain of salt, and a little humor.

Maybe it would be worthwhile to have a written "script" for each of the stage descriptions. I could have sworn that Stage 5 was described as "Start on the first line, fire 5 rounds at Target 1 while moving backwards. Then, after you've cross the second line, engage Target 2 with 5 rounds." I took that to mean as for the first five rounds had to be shot on the move.

I could have certainly heard it or interperted it wrong. So, I'll blame my gear and say my electronic ears weren't turned up enough. Or cut out... yeah, that's it! ;)

ToddG - Also, when we were talking about Stage 5, I wasn't doing a good job of articulating why I chose to shoot from retention... I didn't want to move backwards faster than I was comfortable, so I did a slow shuffle and engaged from retention. I guess in my mind, I was emphasizing the "Tactical" more than the "Game" in KSTG, for what it's worth. Because you're totally right, cardboard won't go for a gun grab, thankfully. :D

[MEH]

Maybe it would be worthwhile to have a written "script" for each of the stage descriptions. I could have sworn that Stage 5 was described as "Start on the first line, fire 5 rounds at Target 1 while moving backwards. Then, after you've cross the second line, engage Target 2 with 5 rounds." I took that to mean as for the first five rounds had to be shot on the move.

You heard correctly.

This touches on the point, that these types of matches (I'll include IDPA and USPSA in the discussion as well) are what ever the participants want to get out of them. If your purpose is to practice for the real world, then use them for that purpose as long as you're within the rules of the game. If you're trying to be the fastest then go for that as well. Gaming these really takes a lot of study and practice and I'm a newb there.

Personally, I'd like to clean one without procedurals or penalties, then start working on speed. Congrats to both shooters last night who shot with 0 points down.

[ToddG]

Dropkick -- you shot it correctly and your interpretation of the instructions is correct. If you didn't feel you could move faster for whatever reason, then shooting from retention (while neither required nor ideal from a score standpoint) was certainly a reasonable thing to do.

The whole point of my post above was to demonstrate that there were lots of ways people could shoot the stages, but some would result in better scores than others. So if you purposely chose to do something non-competitive, you cannot compare scores with the gamer and draw many conclusions.

[cgcorrea]

I had a blast. This was my first KSTG match. I'll definitely be attending the next one. Some great shooters present last night. Major things that I noticed I need to work on: Sight tracking, Pay closer attention to my foot work(Staying inside the specified boudaries IOT avoid procedurals.), Greater concentration on trigger during follow-up shots when shooting at greater distances at speed. Big thanks to Todd and everyone who put this together.

[Dropkick]

Oh okay... I thought there was some confusion about how different stages were explained. Looks like I was confused about the confusion. Nothing to see here, move along. ;)

[JackBlundell]

That was a fun match last night. Many thanks to Todd and the other folks who made it happen. I look forward to the next one!

- Jack Blundell

[ToddG]

I had almost nothing whatsoever to do with last night's match, except lending a hand to the guys mentioned in my previous post and the NRA Range staff. They deserve all the credit!

[jaywade]

is there a date set for the next match?

[ToddG]

Yes, Tuesday 29-May. Odds are the match won't begin until 6pm and there may only be four squads (24 paid slots).

[jaywade]

is it possible to get 3 slots for the 8pm slot for me and 2 other staff members from nova armament?

[ToddG]

Registration will open about two weeks before the match. It's handled completely by the NRA Range and they do not allow anyone, even employees, to sign up in advance. Historically, the match sells out in about three hours. If the next match drops participation from 30 to 24, I suspect it will be closed even sooner.

[cclaxton]

Stage 5, 5 retreating and 5 oblique. This stage wasn't terribly technical. The major mistake people made was trying to force the first target to be a close contact fight. The smarter move was to make distance as quickly as possible which put you over the fault line and got you in the required position for shooting the second target without having to look down to check your foot position. Guys who crawled backwards trying to shoot from retention not only hurt their scores but also practiced purposely staying within weapons retention distance when they didn't have to.

Did you shoot this strong hand only? Would you have done both targets strong hand or both hands?
Thanks,
CC

[ToddG]

Did you shoot this strong hand only? Would you have done both targets strong hand or both hands?

Why would you shoot SHO if you had both of your hands available?

[cclaxton]

Why would you shoot SHO if you had both of your hands available?

At that range, wouldn't it be faster without sacrificing accuracy?
CC

[Chris Rhines]

At that range, wouldn't it be faster without sacrificing accuracy?
CC
Nope. No. Nyet. Nein. No way. Any time you save by not getting a second hand on the gun will be taken up in increased split times.

-C

[ToddG]

At that range, wouldn't it be faster without sacrificing accuracy?

It adds essentially zero time for me to grip the gun with my support hand because it occurs during the drawstroke. Either the hand goes to the gun or it goes somewhere else out of the way. Once the Big Loud Noises begin, giving up the recoil control of a two handed grip will become noticeable very quickly.