Turkish Incursion into Syria

[Chance]

From BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-49978567):


Turkey has boosted its forces on the Syrian border ahead of a long-threatened incursion that could target Kurdish-led forces allied to the US.

Troops would cross into Syria "shortly", a presidential aide said.

Turkey wants to create a "safe zone" cleared of a Kurdish militia that will also house some of Turkey's 3.6 million Syrian refugees.

President Donald Trump has withdrawn US troops in the area in a controversial move condemned at home and abroad.

He again defended his move on Tuesday, saying the Kurds had not been abandoned, calling them "special".

....

Convoys of trucks with armoured personnel carriers and tanks were seen heading to the Turkish border town of Akcakale on Tuesday night. Images of buses carrying personnel were shown by state news agency Anadolu.

Turkey is planning to create a 32km (20-mile) deep "safe zone" running for 480km along the Syrian side of the border.

....

The Kurdish-led administration in the region announced "three days of general mobilisation in northern and eastern Syria", calling on civilians to "head to the border with Turkey to fulfil their duty".

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Washington was sending mixed signals and Kurds feared the confusion could "ignite the whole region".

Russia's security council said it was "important for everyone to avoid any action that could create obstacles to a peaceful settlement in Syria".

....

In a series of tweets, Mr Trump also praised Turkey as a trade partner and Nato ally, hours after saying he would "destroy and obliterate" its economy if the country went "off limits" in its incursion.

[jetfire]

So in 100 years do you think the Turkish government will pretend that the Kurdish genocide didn't happen the same way they do with the Armenian genocide?

[Hambo]

So in 100 years do you think the Turkish government will pretend that the Kurdish genocide didn't happen the same way they do with the Armenian genocide?

If they're still around, yes. Old Hambo proverb: Never trust a Russian, and the Turks are not our allies.

[TiroFijo]

What a marriage of convenience the poor kurds were for the US...

[helothar]

Read some reports ISIS has taken advantage of the situation and begun attacking SDF positions in Raqqa

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[Chance]

According to BBC News, Turkey has begun air strikes in north eastern Syria ahead of the troop move.

[jrm]

This is really bumming me out. I don’t know any Kurds and have never had a connection to them but to me it seems they have been our only true allies in that neck of the woods for the last almost 2 decades. I have made it no secret I am not a fan of our current President. But leave that out of it I just find this terrible. It doesn’t seem to matter if you help America we will just turn our back on you when someone else can offer us more or you are no longer of benefit to us. I see no reason why any nation or ethnic group should ever help us again. I am praying and near weeping for the Kurds today.

[Borderland]

So what's new? The Kurds got sold out by the US. Their homeland is divided by Syria, Iraq, Iran and Turkey. Everyone of those countries have tried to keep them from establishing a Kurdish state separate from the countries that govern the region they live in. Their problems first came to national attention when Saddam Hussein started dropping nerve gas on their villages. They've been a useful tool for the US in that region ever since because they've been fighting for their homeland against enemies of the US (real or perceived). ISIS is real.

The problem this time is Turkey wants them out. They've caused a lot of problems for the Turks just as Syria has.

Trump is a nationalist. Wars in that region doesn't concern him. He would just as soon let Syria, Turkey, Iran or Iraq control that region. Matters not to him even if they get support from Russia to do it. So far Russia has armed Iran and Syria. Looks like Russia is ahead at halftime. His plan to help Russia anyway he can. :(

[Casual Friday]

This one sits heavy in the pit of my stomach. I fear that this will create further hatred for America by people who we turned our backs on.

[Lex Luthier]

In the past (1970s-early 80s at least) some covert military aid has gone to the Kurds in the various regions via Israel.
It would not surprise me if this were the case once more, or even one of the gulf states stepped into the breach. They are no friends of Turkey.

The Kurds in general are tough cookies and pragmatic.

[RoyGBiv]

We should have divided Iraq and let the Kurds have their third, gerrymandering the map to give them some oil resources. All the sabre rattling from Erdogan at the time got us nothing but what we have today, which was entirely foreseeable, unless you had a plan (Note: Hope is not a plan) to depose Erdogan.

Maybe Israel will welcome them. That would be an interesting partnership.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Tom Friedman has a good take: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/08/opinion/iran-israel-saudi-arabia.html

Basically no one in our set of allies will trust Trump. I've noted my less than favorable opinion of Trump. I don't care that he might be semi-protective of gun rights as that is all smoke and mirrors based on his random mentation. His tweet :


As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!).

cannot be consider as anything that a rational president would say. Trump being Trump doesn't cut it unless you are in Trump Delusion Love Disorder.

Take a look at the fall of Saigon. The GOP leaders need to tell this man, that he should not run again. A rational GOP candidate can be found. However, they are scared of the small turnout primary of MAGA hat nuts kicking them out. I told Senator Cornyn that he has been cornyn-holed. Of course, he won't see that message.

If Friedman is correct, we will see a major war between Israel and Iran and who knows if Trump will do what?

[MK11]

Tom Friedman has a good take: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/08/opinion/iran-israel-saudi-arabia.html

Basically no one in our set of allies will trust Trump. I've noted my less than favorable opinion of Trump. I don't care that he might be semi-protective of gun rights as that is all smoke and mirrors based on his random mentation. His tweet :



cannot be consider as anything that a rational president would say. Trump being Trump doesn't cut it unless you are in Trump Delusion Love Disorder.

Take a look at the fall of Saigon. The GOP leaders need to tell this man, that he should not run again. A rational GOP candidate can be found. However, they are scared of the small turnout primary of MAGA hat nuts kicking them out. I told Senator Cornyn that he has been cornyn-holed. Of course, he won't see that message.

If Friedman is correct, we will see a major war between Israel and Iran and who knows if Trump will do what?

Whatever Putin tells him to do.

[Chance]

His tweet :


As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!).

cannot be consider as anything that a rational president would say.

I was so hoping that quote was fabricated, but no, of course it's real.

1181232251390042118

[Stephanie B]

I would not fault the Kurds at all for falling back, leaving the prisons unlocked, and somehow accidentally leaving behind a few truckloads of AKs and RPGs.

The United States of America has betrayed them because of a reportedly angry phone call by one autocrat (Erdrogan of Turkey) to a wannabee autocrat (Trump). Trump has shown himself to be as erratic and impulsive as his many detractors have always claimed.

The blowback from this bit of betrayal will be felt for decades. People around the world will know that the promises and security guarantees of the United States are not worth a tinker's damn. Expect both the Russians and the Chinese to exploit this for a very long time.

Our country's word is of no value.

[Grey]

Uhhh... Did we basically make the same mistake we did with the Taliban in Afghanistan back in the 80s?

[Borderland]

Trump just stepped on his tiny johnson.......again. Is that even possible?

[Zincwarrior]

Uhhh... Did we basically make the same mistake we did with the Taliban in Afghanistan back in the 80s?
More like with the Montagnards.

[Zincwarrior]

Turkey says now moving ground forces.
https://thehill.com/policy/defense/465072-turkey-says-ground-forces-have-crossed-over-into-northern-syria

[NEPAKevin]

More like with the Montagnards.

All they got out of that deal was a gas guzzler and an empty lawn.

43466

[JRB]

The way I see it, someone's going to have to kick Turkey's ass someday - and if it ended up being the U.S., for the sake of the Kurdish people, we'd be getting called a turncoat and betrayer by all the NATO and EU nations for having dropped the hammer on a sorta-NATO, sorta-EU nation.

Only less American blood soaks into the desert in THIS version of events.

I really don't see any middle ground between these two options.

[RJ]

I guess I am in the minority.

My step son is a Marine. I’m hard pressed to understand why he needs to be in some distant land, trying to stay alive, absent some kind of defined Military threat to the United States.

Assuming what I understand is happening in Turkey/the Kurds, I am glad our troops are coming home and I’m happy that finally we have a President who recognizes that we can’t have American presence overseas, literally, forever.

YMMV.

[ranger]

If we stay over there we are wrong. If we leave we are wrong. I do not have enough information to judge.

[the Schwartz]

If we stay over there we are wrong. If we leave we are wrong. I do not have enough information to judge.

The founders cautioned against involvement in foreign affairs. Anytime we do so, we do so at our own peril and under the great probability that whatever we do, we will be in error. Will our politicians ever learn this simple lesson?

I think the writing is on the wall.

[the Schwartz]

I guess I am in the minority.

My step son is a Marine. I’m hard pressed to understand why he needs to be in some distant land, trying to stay alive, absent some kind of defined Military threat to the United States.

Assuming what I understand is happening in Turkey/the Kurds, I am glad our troops are coming home and I’m happy that finally we have a President who recognizes that we can’t have American presence overseas, literally, forever.

YMMV.

I quoted you just for the satisfaction of being able to agree with you again. Why spend blood and treasure in perpetuity when the return is likely to be very small or non-existent?

Here's hoping your kid finds his way safely back to his dad.

[fixer]

Its high fuckin time for the world to start solving its own goddamn problems.

I wouldn't trade 1 Marine for 100 Kurds.

[Casual Friday]

I guess I am in the minority.

My step son is a Marine. I’m hard pressed to understand why he needs to be in some distant land, trying to stay alive, absent some kind of defined Military threat to the United States.

Assuming what I understand is happening in Turkey/the Kurds, I am glad our troops are coming home and I’m happy that finally we have a President who recognizes that we can’t have American presence overseas, literally, forever.

YMMV.

I don't disagree about us getting out of the middle east, but when we've asked so much of the Kurds in the last 20 years this feels like we're leaving them high and dry. JRB summation seems to be the most accurate.

The Kurds are going to be slaughtered and that blood is on us.

[Joe in PNG]

I don't disagree about us getting out of the middle east, but when we've asked so much of the Kurds in the last 20 years this feels like we're leaving them high and dry. JRB summation seems to be the most accurate.

The Kurds are going to be slaughtered and that blood is on us.

The question is, what can the USA do for them that won't involve us getting stuck in a long term suckfest?

[Casual Friday]

The question is, what can the USA do for them that won't involve us getting stuck in a long term suckfest?

I don't have the answer to that other than to say the timing kinda sucks too. I mean, there's been other opportunities for us to back away when Turkey wasn't breathing down their necks.

We should consider this type of conundrum next time we decide to get involved.

[TheRoland]

This is a stain on our national honor and the personal honor of everyone who pretends otherwise. We were happy to call them allies when they were useful but as soon as a dictator made a phone call, we folded and were proud of it.

[VT1032]

I tend to subscribe to the viewpoint of "fuck it, let them all kill each other somewhere far away from me", but I do have a soft spot for the Kurds. They have been the loyalest of allies through many trying times and we have left them out to dry yet again. For what? To appease some asshole quasi dictator who really is far more of an enemy then a friend...

I like some of Trump's domestic agenda but he's pretty well had his head up his ass on foreign policy from day one. He's way out of his depth and far to egotistical to realise it.

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[Grey]

The Kurds stepped up to the plate when we asked them to fight ISIS with us. It's a pretty shitty way to treat them now.

[Redhat]

What exactly should we be doing for the Kurds ? Help them establish their own state? How long should we commit?

[TheRoland]

What exactly should we be doing for the Kurds ? Help them establish their own state? How long should we commit?

Perhaps we should not simply move our forces to allow a dictator to kill them freely and approve of him on Twitter.

[Rex G]

Christendom should have gotten its collective act together, and done a better job of defending Constantinople. They almost let Vienna fall, too.

The Turks are not our friends.

[TheRoland]

The Turks are not our friends.

Who is “we”? Trump has his name on 3 towers in Istanbul.

[Redhat]

Perhaps we should not simply move our forces to allow a dictator to kill them freely and approve of him on Twitter.

That's not really an answer on what our strategy SHOULD be and why.

[Rex G]

Who is “we”? Trump has his name on 3 towers in Istanbul.

Yes, the West does business with Turks. Nothing new about that. Just ask the Venetians. The Turks tried to destroy them, too.

[Rex G]

Who is “we”? Trump has his name on 3 towers in Istanbul.

Those towers should be standing in Constantinople. ;)

[Joe in PNG]

Christendom should have gotten its collective act together, and done a better job of defending Constantinople. They almost let Vienna fall, too.

The Turks are not our friends.

Or, the British Empire could have let the Tsar have a free hand with the Ottomans.

[FNFAN]

I think the Kurds we're talking about in Syria are the PYD/YPG Communist group that pretty much hate America and hung with us for their own goals and the equipment they could get. The folks that were really kinda boned were the Iraqi area groups IIRC.

[Arbninftry]

I fought with the Kurds in Iraq 2003 and 2005. They were the only ones we could really trust. I hate to see this. It will be hard for future soldiers to tell another army we are training, "we will be there for you, just look how we are with the Kurds". Shitty deal, i hope they can get out soon, the Turks are ASSHOLES. They have always despised how we have protected the Kurds. Fuck Turkey.

The YPG and Syrian Kurds are Socialist types, but they always worked with us. In the land of ISIS and assholes, they kurds were there to help us when we needed it.

[Stephanie B]

Uhhh... Did we basically make the same mistake we did with the Taliban in Afghanistan back in the 80s?

Pretty much, and GHWB should have known better.

[Caballoflaco]

I think the Kurds we're talking about in Syria are the PYD/YPG Communist group that pretty much hate America and hung with us for their own goals and the equipment they could get. The folks that were really kinda boned were the Iraqi area groups IIRC.

Yeah, YPG are straight old school Marxist-Communists. Anitfa members from Europe and America have gone over and fought with them. If any of them fought with us earlier it wasn’t out of any love of the west, but rather “the enemy of my enemy”.

[wvincent]

I think the Kurds we're talking about in Syria are the PYD/YPG Communist group that pretty much hate America and hung with us for their own goals and the equipment they could get. The folks that were really kinda boned were the Iraqi area groups IIRC.

Bingo!!
PYD/YPG and the US were united by a common enemy, ISIS. Nothing more, nothing less. Trump didn't drag our asses to Syria, the Obama administration did. And Libya. All kinds of foreign mis-adventures.
Is this so much worse than when Obama pulled us out of Iraq, when the country was still in turmoil?
So we leave our 50 troops scattered on the border, and God forbid a couple get killed while Turkey opens up the "safe zone"?
Great, now we would have a NATO member VS NATO member situation.
Kind of hard to support an insurgent group that is considered a "terrorist group" by another NATO member. Might be something in the charter against that.

Pretty hilarious to see all the Doves trying to become Hawks today, trying to condemn the pullout.

When it comes to the ME, it's always a great time to leave.

[BigDaddy]

I guess I am in the minority.

My step son is a Marine. I’m hard pressed to understand why he needs to be in some distant land, trying to stay alive, absent some kind of defined Military threat to the United States.

Assuming what I understand is happening in Turkey/the Kurds, I am glad our troops are coming home and I’m happy that finally we have a President who recognizes that we can’t have American presence overseas, literally, forever.

YMMV.

No, you are not in the minority. Your son, my son, no ones son should die or come home maimed in a war anywhere in that part of the country or anywhere else in the world for that matter. No American should be put at risk unless it serves our national interest. We are not or should not be the worlds policeman. Enough of these little wars that really serve no purpose and is not in our national interest. I'm glad PRESIDENT Trump did this. Enough already. How long should we have kept our guys there? 18 years? Korea, Viet Nam, Grenada, Iraq, Afghanistan, when does it stop?

[jetfire]

No, you are not in the minority. Your son, my son, no ones son should die or come home maimed in a war anywhere in that part of the country or anywhere else in the world for that matter. No American should be put at risk unless it serves our national interest. We are not or should not be the worlds policeman. Enough of these little wars that really serve no purpose and is not in our national interest. I'm glad PRESIDENT Trump did this. Enough already. How long should we have kept our guys there? 18 years? Korea, Viet Nam, Grenada, Iraq, Afghanistan, when does it stop?

It's an important note that the troops aren't coming home. They're not even leaving Syria, they're just being pulled back from the Turkish/Kurdish border so that we don't end up coming under fire when the Turks move in to ethnically cleanse...I mean pacify the Kurds.

[Hambo]

I guess I am in the minority.

My step son is a Marine. I’m hard pressed to understand why he needs to be in some distant land, trying to stay alive, absent some kind of defined Military threat to the United States.

Assuming what I understand is happening in Turkey/the Kurds, I am glad our troops are coming home and I’m happy that finally we have a President who recognizes that we can’t have American presence overseas, literally, forever.

YMMV.

We've had a military presence in Philippines for 120 years.

[rcbusmc24]

I'm currently sitting in Okinawa... The Marine Corps has never left since the landings....just saying.....

[Stephanie B]

The military power that has abandoned its ally in the Syrian war: The United States of America

The military power that has not abandoned its ally in the Syrian war: The Russian Federation

If you don't believe that's going to resonate through the region, if not beyond, I suspect that you are gravely mistaken.

[TiroFijo]

The US bases overseas...

http://images.politico.com/global/2015/06/23/backpage-11601.jpg

When somebody says "leave X region alone" it has clearly never been the intention of the US government. In today's world, f X region has problems, more likely than not it is at least to some degree due to US intervention.

You break it, you should fix it.

[wsr]

I don't disagree about us getting out of the middle east, but when we've asked so much of the Kurds in the last 20 years this feels like we're leaving them high and dry. JRB summation seems to be the most accurate.

The Kurds are going to be slaughtered and that blood is on us.


So how much is it that we owe them? I mean it’s not like we trained them, gave them money, gave them weapons, gave them vehicles, gave them medicine, etc etc etc...oh yeah let’s not forget we offered up the lives of our servicemen
Of course we ask things in return, that’s the way the world works
I’m not happy about the pull out either but putting their blood on our hands is a little much, just because we help someone doesn’t mean we are on the hook forever

[Zincwarrior]

The question is, what can the USA do for them that won't involve us getting stuck in a long term suckfest?

Sell them a bunch of stuff. Alternatively give them a priority for immigration. Come to the land of TexMex and Freedom Fries.

[Casual Friday]

So how much is it that we owe them? I mean it’s not like we trained them, gave them money, gave them weapons, gave them vehicles, gave them medicine, etc etc etc...oh yeah let’s not forget we offered up the lives of our servicemen
Of course we ask things in return, that’s the way the world works
I’m not happy about the pull out either but putting their blood on our hands is a little much, just because we help someone doesn’t mean we are on the hook forever

The timing.

[wsr]

The timing.

Has there ever been a good time for the Kurds???
This has always been a problem and will always be a problem
No matter when we pull out, shortly after the Turks or some other assholes will move in

[RoyGBiv]

We had the opportunity to give them their own country by carving a chunk out of Iraq.

[Chance]

“Now the Kurds are fighting for their land,” Trump told reporters during a press conference on Wednesday night. “They didn’t help us in the Second World War, they didn’t help us with Normandy, for example.”

Okay - we now have the apparent metric for loyalty: if you didn't help us with Normandy, you can fuck off.

[blues]

Okay - we now have the apparent metric for loyalty: if you didn't help us with Normandy, you can fuck off.

Well, there goes our relationship with France...


/s

[Zincwarrior]

Okay - we now have the apparent metric for loyalty: if you didn't help us with Normandy, you can fuck off.

Sounds like Germany might be in a spot there.

[wsr]

Okay - we now have the apparent metric for loyalty: if you didn't help us with Normandy, you can fuck off.

That’s not what he was implying he was pointing out (very poorly) that they are fighting solely out of self interest

[blues]

That’s not what he was implying he was pointing out (very poorly) that they are fighting solely out of self interest

Which is what the whole concept of "allies" is based upon. Mutual self interest and a promise (via treaty, word or deed) to support the other.

A promise made is a promise kept.

[Zincwarrior]

Depends on if hotels are involved.

[wsr]

Which is what the whole concept of "allies" is based upon. Mutual self interest and a promise (via treaty, word or deed) to support the other.

A promise made is a promise kept.

Not what I was talking about but still a good point, so here’s some questions...what promises were made by the US? What actions were those promises contingent on? What did the Kurds promise the US? Did the Kurds fulfill their promises?

Honest questions...the answers to all of that play into “a promise made is a promise kept”

[Sal Picante]

If they're still around, yes. Old Hambo proverb: Never trust a Russian, and the Turks are not our allies.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-konSUS_TA

(On fire with the Snatch vids today... Sorry 'bout the language)

[Zincwarrior]

Not what I was talking about but still a good point, so here’s some questions...what promises were made by the US? What actions were those promises contingent on? What did the Kurds promise the US? Did the Kurds fulfill their promises?

Honest questions...the answers to all of that play into “a promise made is a promise kept”
US promised to protect them if they removed their defensive fortifications facing the Turkish border. Kind of like the US promised to protect Ukraine if they gave up their nukes.

[wvincent]

Which is what the whole concept of "allies" is based upon. Mutual self interest and a promise (via treaty, word or deed) to support the other.

A promise made is a promise kept.

Which we did. We supplied cash, arms, vehicles, training, CAS, beans, bullets, and band-aids. In pursuit of a common enemy, ISIS. We also had 50 US troops on the border as a stop check to keep Turkey restrained up to now.
Those who think we should have carved out a piece of Syria for the Kurd's, it isn't our country to carve out, and the Kurd's could never hold it with out our help. Which means boots on the ground forever.

Remember how well spreading all that Democracy worked out in Iraq? I would like to think we may have learned our lesson on nation building.

Our alliance with the Kurd's was based on convenience toward a mutual goal, nothing more.

All the faux moral outage is pretty titillating, considering that it is based on cherry picked snippets, conveniently omitting the rest of the statement, which if included would go a long way towards providing context.

Perhaps Russia will save the Kurd's, they have been quite "cozy" in the past.

[Rick62]

For those critical of the decision to pull our token presence out of the area, I’ll ask what was the alternative IF, and I recognize it’s an if, it was clear that Turkey was going to make a move regardless?
Negotiations with Turkey over the specifics of the safe zone had faltered. I’d imagine that we would’ve had a pretty clear image of the Turkish build up on the border.
So if we have an indication that Turkey’s going to make a move, regardless of the presence of 50-100 American troops present, which of the following options would you prefer:
- Blind hope that the thought of harming American personnel deters Erdogan from green lighting this operation.
- We reinforce our positions, substantially, to offer a legitimate deterrent to protect our personnel, and by extension, the Kurds. This presents the real possibility of a kinetic engagement between between two NATO allies. (Turkey’s a shitty ally, but still).
- In either of the above scenarios, what number of American casualties do you find acceptable?

Any time a use of force is discussed on this forum, the fact that “the bad guy gets a vote” in how things go down is always acknowledged.
Why do we not acknowledge the fact that in this situation, the bad guy (Turkey) gets a vote.




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[wsr]

US promised to protect them if they removed their defensive fortifications facing the Turkish border. Kind of like the US promised to protect Ukraine if they gave up their nukes.

Was the promise as simple as that? I doubt if it was that straight forward.
Again not saying we should abandon them, just trying to weed through the chaff

[Stephanie B]

“Now the Kurds are fighting for their land,” Trump told reporters during a press conference on Wednesday night. “They didn’t help us in the Second World War, they didn’t help us with Normandy, for example.”Okay - we now have the apparent metric for loyalty: if you didn't help us with Normandy, you can fuck off.

The French helped us during the Revolution even though we weren't there for them during the Hundred Years' War.

[Stephanie B]

Sounds like Germany might be in a spot there.

55 years old, but still good:


https://youtu.be/3j20voPS0gI?t=20

[blues]

My only point is not to write checks that can't be cashed and keep promises to a minimum.

I've always felt this country should be more isolationist than interventionist, and that it should pick its points of intervention judiciously and act surgically.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The French helped us during the Revolution even though we weren't there for them during the Hundred Years' War.

It can be argued that the French were instrumental in two war disasters for the USA.

First, after WWI - the Vietnamese, seeing the western principles of democracy, asked the conference for the liberty from the French. It was denied. After WWII, Ho asked for USA support to keep the French out. No, we supported their imperalist bullshit - AND got the Viet Nam war. It is argued that even though Ho was a socialist (as capitalists won't support their freedom from the French after WWI and II), he was a nationalist and resisted China (a long history of such, a little war after we left).

Second, after WWI - the imperalist desires of the French and British in the Middle East led to the artificial countries of Syria, Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon. They had no ethnic reality. The Kurds after WWI asked at the conferences if their continguous areas in what are Syria,Iraq, was left of the Ottomans (became Turkey) and Iran (but at least the first three) could be made a sensible country. But, this clashed with the imperial ambitions of the French and British. That led to the current mess.

Of course, GWB marched into Iraq in one of the idiot moves of current times. I wonder if the true believers of Trump today were true believers in GWB. I have a friend like that. GWB was correct. There were WMDs. When GWB resisted the surge, he was a genius. Well, that war didn't work out - culture was misunderstood and Obama screwed the pooch with Maliki. Now, he thinks Bush was totally deceived by the deep state. Trump is the new genius but opposed by the deep state. Oh, well.

Anybody here support Gulf War II. The current situation is a total mess. The Europeans and the USA lighted the fuse many times by mucking around in the area for venial interests.

Do we care if Iran dominates the area?
Do we want to stop religious genocides (the Evangelicals are upset that the Christians there are toast as the Turks and Isis don't like them)?
Do we care if the end result puts Israel at risk (starting a nuclear war maybe, they weren't at Normandy).
Do we care if oil supplies are disrupted (we have our own now but world's economy can be disrupted)?
Do we break promises or use cognitive dissonance to devalue the promises as the promise recipients are no good!

[Borderland]

Remember how well spreading all that Democracy worked out in Iraq? I would like to think we may have learned our lesson on nation building.


I don't think a few thousand troops in Syria is nation building.

I was part of small group (about 200) in a country in N. Africa. We weren't there to "build" any nations with 200 military personnel. The US had military personnel there a long time (ended in the 70's) and the guy on the street never knew it. They still don't.

Trump isn't pulling those 2K troops out of Syria anyway. He's just using the headlines to support his nationalistic policy that he thought got him elected. Lots of talk, no real action.

The pentagon has said that none of those troops are leaving Syria but Trump is still tweeting about his righteous decision.

[wvincent]

I don't think a few thousand troops in Syria is nation building.

I was part of small group (about 200) in a country in N. Africa. We weren't there to "build" any nations with 200 military personnel. The US had military personnel there a long time (ended in the 70's) and the guy on the street never knew it. They still don't.

Trump isn't pulling those 2K troops out of Syria anyway. He's just using the headlines to support his nationalistic policy that he thought got him elected. Lots of talk, no real action.

The pentagon has said that none of those troops are leaving Syria but Trump is still tweeting about his righteous decision.

Talk about cherry picking snippet's to alter the context:
Those who think we should have carved out a piece of Syria for the Kurd's, it isn't our country to carve out, and the Kurd's could never hold it with out our help. Which means boots on the ground forever.

Remember how well spreading all that Democracy worked out in Iraq? I would like to think we may have learned our lesson on nation building.

Our alliance with the Kurd's was based on convenience toward a mutual goal, nothing more.
Try copy and pasting more than just fits your narrative.

[Rex G]

Or, the British Empire could have let the Tsar have a free hand with the Ottomans.

True. Not until WWI did the Brits finally decide to tell a Tsar that he could have Constantinople, as a reward for staying in the fight. (Of course, Russia, instead, disintegrated into an unholy mess, leaving the British and French to really screw the pooch, in the Middle East, after WWI.)

[Zincwarrior]

Was the promise as simple as that? I doubt if it was that straight forward.
Again not saying we should abandon them, just trying to weed through the chaff

I hear you, just remarking what I saw being argued on TV.

[Hambo]

I've always felt this country should be more isolationist than interventionist, and that it should pick its points of intervention judiciously and act surgically.

We've been interventionists since we went to the Philippines. In other words, while there have been ardent isolationists, it hasn't been in our Geo-political DNA for 120 years.

[TiroFijo]

To talk about "american isolationism" is a delusion.

The USA is, for all practical purposes, one of the largest "empires" the world has ever known. It has "interests" everywhere.

It operates on a basis of global hegemony by a series of alliances, pressure and interventions in other countries affairs alll over the world. Not always the intervention is by means of military force.

As Hambo put it, it has been that way for over 120 years, and not by chance.
Alfred Thayer Mahan and people like him were the sparks that originated the spanish-american war and the expansion of US "areas of influence" and colonies.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We were offered a chunk of the Ottoman land after WWI and wisely said no. Could the Kurds hold the land? Probably not against Turks. Against the Iraqis nonexistant, so called country and the Syrians. Probably with help but not major troops.

[Borderland]

Talk about cherry picking snippet's to alter the context:
Those who think we should have carved out a piece of Syria for the Kurd's, it isn't our country to carve out, and the Kurd's could never hold it with out our help. Which means boots on the ground forever.

Remember how well spreading all that Democracy worked out in Iraq? I would like to think we may have learned our lesson on nation building.

Our alliance with the Kurd's was based on convenience toward a mutual goal, nothing more.
Try copy and pasting more than just fits your narrative.

If you are going to continue to insist that our presence in Syria is nation building I'll have to exit the conversation.

Adios amigo.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Lindsey Graham pranked into whatever hell he is saying:

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/10/lindsey-graham-trump-hoax-call-043991

Lindsey is very despicable. Reminds me of Baghdad Bob or Wormtongue from LoTR.

[ranger]

We had the opportunity to give them their own country by carving a chunk out of Iraq.

Iraq was/is a sovereign nation - I do not think "we" could redraw its borders.

[ranger]

Turkey is a NATO nation - should we fight a NATO ally that also is a host to a major US base that probably houses nuclear weapons?

Congress can declare war - let Congress declare war on "someone" in Syria or Turkey - let Congress explain what is the overriding National interest to stay in Syria, get into conflict with Turkey, Syria, etc. Congress will not take the lead on this - Congress will just use this as another excuse to snipe at Trump.

How long do we stay in Syria, etc.

If Europe has a better idea, let the EU or NATO deal with the issue for a change. Oh yeah, NATO does not have enough Combat Power to do anything as the US and Turkey are the two largest militaries in NATO now.

I hear a lot of emotion but not a lot of facts and reasoned arguments from the Media, Congress, Democrats, NeverTrumpers, etc.

[Stephanie B]

[QUOTE=ranger;941400I hear a lot of emotion but not a lot of facts and reasoned arguments from the Media, Congress, Democrats, NeverTrumpers, etc.[/QUOTE]
I hear a lot of rationales for betraying an ally from the Trumpanzees.

The Kurds allied with us in the fight against Islamic terrorists. They suffered thousands killed in the fight.

It was the USA which persuaded the Kurds not to fortify themselves against the Turks. Then it was the USA which withdrew the Americans who shielded the Kurds from the Turks.

You can pretty it up all you wish, but the plain fact of the matter is that the United States has just signaled to the world that only fools and chumps would rely on American security guarantees. Israel has gotten the message (https://www.apnews.com/a211f69f41834851900b25dd6d5e2a28).

[TheRoland]

I just want it to be really clear that, as far as we know, we didn't fold when Turkey moved overwhelming force to threaten small special forces units. This wasn't Trump making a hard choice not to fight a NATO ally.

We folded when a dictator that the President likes called him. That's it.

[Greg]

It's not out of the realm of possibility that the experienced Kurdish fighters will bleed the dirtbag Turks like they richly deserve.

[YVK]

We are not or should not be the worlds policeman. Enough of these little wars that really serve no purpose and is not in our national interest. I'm glad PRESIDENT Trump did this. Enough already. How long should we have kept our guys there? 18 years? Korea, Viet Nam, Grenada, Iraq, Afghanistan, when does it stop?

When stopping policing the world doesn't carry a risk of 3,000 American citizens getting killed midday in the Manhattan.

[Grey]

When stopping policing the world doesn't carry a risk of 3,000 American citizens getting killed midday in the Manhattan.

YVK said it perfectly.

[willie]

Few countries desire to have a militant group operating within its borders. Turkey views the Kurds as terrorists. Of course, that view does not justify genocide, though such is commonplace in that region. We used the K group when we needed them, and now we are faced with deciding how not to give them a giant camel screwing at the same time that we should not offend a NATO member and drive it into Russian arms. What I just wrote Trump has yet to figure out.

[GardoneVT]

The grim reality is we have two choices- fight somewhere else, or fight at home. As 9/11 and Pearl Harbor before it shows, people will pick a fight with the US no matter our intentions.

This also means we are and will be in a continual state of war with somebody. Put more directly , “withdrawing” is not an option. We may not have boots on the ground in Turkey/Kurdistan, but we have them in thousands of other commands and battlegrounds. Most never make the news.

Insofar as keeping our word with allies goes, that ship sailed with the last boat out of Saigon decades ago.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The Kurds didn’t fight at Normandy as it is well known they have bone spurs.

[blues]

The Kurds didn’t fight at Normandy as it is well known they have bone spurs.

That actually made me LOL. :cool:

[Borderland]

The grim reality is we have two choices- fight somewhere else, or fight at home. As 9/11 and Pearl Harbor before it shows, people will pick a fight with the US no matter our intentions.

This also means we are and will be in a continual state of war with somebody. Put more directly , “withdrawing” is not an option. We may not have boots on the ground in Turkey/Kurdistan, but we have them in thousands of other commands and battlegrounds. Most never make the news.

Insofar as keeping our word with allies goes, that ship sailed with the last boat out of Saigon decades ago.

Last count 150 countries. 40K in locations the US gov't refuses to disclose.

I know that for a fact because I was in one.

[RoyGBiv]

It's not out of the realm of possibility that the experienced Kurdish fighters will bleed the dirtbag Turks like they richly deserve.

From your keyboard to God's ears.

[jetfire]

It's not out of the realm of possibility that the experienced Kurdish fighters will bleed the dirtbag Turks like they richly deserve.

It would be nice to think that, but the Kurds are mostly a light infantry force with some lightly armored vehicles. The Turks are going to roll heavy and they've got Leapord 2s as well as their own home grown heavy tank. Infantry can fight armor, but only if they can afford to spend anti-tank missles like machine gun rounds, and I don't know if the Kurds have that kind of logistics.

As much as I'd like to be on the general incompetence of the Turkish army against a battled hardened Kurdish resistance, the maths don't add up to well for the Kurds.

[JDD]

Which is what the whole concept of "allies" is based upon. Mutual self interest and a promise (via treaty, word or deed) to support the other.

A promise made is a promise kept.

When I interviewed for a job in International Affairs awhile ago, there were two points relevant to this discussion that I used.

One: The broader situation with the Turkey as a NATO ally, who is in direct conflict with a group who shares some of our national interests because of article 5 of the NATO charter. This case, the Kurds (it developed into a conversation on the feasibility of an independent Kurdish state and what were the good, short-term decisions that were made with significant long term consequences.) The prompt was for a critique of foreign policy, but it became a discussion of long term decisions vs short term ones (the US tends to be driven by the short term process, but historically we then hold onto those decisions/allies - frequently long after they are no longer influential or have utility.

Two: Every Foreign Affairs issue is a domestic political issue in two+ countries first. It is always interesting to see people hold firm opinions on complex issues that they were not aware of before the issues became a political football in domestic politics.

[RoyGBiv]

Special Ops Soldier: 'I Am Ashamed For The First Time In My Career' (https://townhall.com/tipsheet/mattvespa/2019/10/10/special-ops-soldier-i-am-ashamed-for-the-first-time-in-my-career-n2554519)

[Redhat]

For those interested in learning more about who the Kurds are and their different factions as well as some history, Breitbart has a decent article here: https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2019/10/11/five-things-you-should-know-about-the-kurds/

[Glenn E. Meyer]

For those who praised OrangeManBad for pulling out troops (granted it was just a few) from a region not worth fighting for (not really our allies anyway), how about this one:

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/10/11/pentagon-troops-saudi-arabia-044502

The Saudis are certainly our friends. However, IIRC, stationing troops there after GW1 was a major motivator for Osama. Also, yes - we know that the Saudis are incapable of using all the crap they bought - but is that our problem? Protect them from Iran. We don't give a crap that the moves in Syria enhance Iranian threats to Israel - seethe Friedman article in this thread. Why do we give a crap about Iran threatening Saudi Arabia? Who is getting the oil money?

I wait for Lindsey Graham to explain this.

[GardoneVT]

When I interviewed for a job in International Affairs awhile ago, there were two points relevant to this discussion that I used.

One: The broader situation with the Turkey as a NATO ally, who is in direct conflict with a group who shares some of our national interests because of article 5 of the NATO charter. This case, the Kurds (it developed into a conversation on the feasibility of an independent Kurdish state and what were the good, short-term decisions that were made with significant long term consequences.) The prompt was for a critique of foreign policy, but it became a discussion of long term decisions vs short term ones (the US tends to be driven by the short term process, but historically we then hold onto those decisions/allies - frequently long after they are no longer influential or have utility.

Two: Every Foreign Affairs issue is a domestic political issue in two+ countries first. It is always interesting to see people hold firm opinions on complex issues that they were not aware of before the issues became a political football in domestic politics.

The subject of supporting “allies” is a thorny one for the US. We obviously want to support a group which shares our values . Sometimes we get that luxury.

Other times we are put in a corner. Occasionally the options are Bad vs Worse. Saudi Arabia is a good example of this. I’m sure most rational Americans dislike the notion of people - even bad actors like Khashoggi- being dismembered in an embassy. But the alternative is regional instability and a Muslim shine falling into an unfriendly government. ISIL controlling Mecca and the national assets of Saudi Arabia is Not Good for the United States and a lot of other folks.

The choices always look easy when you’re not in the Big Chair. They rarely are in practice. Vietnam came from a no win choice between backing the French (against the then-idealogically aligned insurgency) or supporting the insurgency and seeing France turn to Soviet Russia.

[Stephanie B]

The Kurds didn’t fight at Normandy as it is well known they have bone spurs.

No, but they helped repair the airports that George Washington captured.

[Drang]

Knowing the Difference Between Small and Large Kurds (https://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/knowing-the-difference-between-small-and-large-kurds-t20970.html)

People often tend to confuse our operations alongside the Iraqi Kurds with those alongside the Syrian Kurds. Those are two different conflicts, different stories, and different wars.

In Iraq, the Kurds had sided with us to defeat Saddam. In Syria, it was the U.S. that sided with the Kurds to help them defeat ISIS, whom they were fighting anyway. Now ISIS has been defeated and the Kurds are back to fighting Turkey, resuming their multi-generation hostilities with our, albeit formal, NATO ally.

The pullout of 50 to 100 U.S. special operations forces out of Kurd-held northern Syria is described in the media as a biblical-scale catastrophe, and it is affecting some of the anti-Trump conservatives like Ben Shapiro. I repeat: the number is between 50 and 100, and they are being relocated to spare them the crossfire in a purely ethnic Turk/Kurd conflict. Such a creation of mountains out of molehills is very similar to what happens when Rachael Maddow puts on a padded brassiere.


Caveat: The People's Cube is not known for straight forward fact-based reporting, preferring experience-based satire ripping of all things progressive.

Still.


Additionally, the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK), a Kurdish far-left militant and political organization, is getting enough help from the American and European members of Antifa, who are coming there for combat experience, which they're expecting to use back at home. The Rolling Stone wrote about this last year, and Mother Jones just now. A simple search will produce plenty of MSM stories that glorify Antifa joining the Kurdistan Workers' Party.
{Emphasis added, lest anyone miss the key point.}

[Elkhitman]

Knowing the Difference Between Small and Large Kurds (https://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/knowing-the-difference-between-small-and-large-kurds-t20970.html)


Caveat: The People's Cube is not known for straight forward fact-based reporting, preferring experience-based satire ripping of all things progressive.

Still.


{Emphasis added, lest anyone miss the key point.}

Thanks for this info. It’s interesting stuff.

Just came across this.
https://www.npr.org/2019/10/11/769293935/u-s-officials-slam-turkish-incursion-into-syria-that-has-displaced-70-000-people?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_source=facebook.com

[TheRoland]

It’s interesting stuff in that there is no action dishonorable enough that people won’t attempt to justify it.

[JDD]

Knowing the Difference Between Small and Large Kurds (https://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/knowing-the-difference-between-small-and-large-kurds-t20970.html)


Caveat: The People's Cube is not known for straight forward fact-based reporting, preferring experience-based satire ripping of all things progressive.

Still.


{Emphasis added, lest anyone miss the key point.}

This is a perfect example of justification based information sourcing. It is also a frankly disgusting attempt to equate a known malicious entity with a much larger and more significant group of people.

The PKK has been on the list of designated Terrorist Organizations for over 20 years, and material support for them is already a felony under 18 USC 2339. In fact, a lot of the folks who were all fired up to go kill ISIS needed to be very careful lest they end up associated with the wrong sort of group, and in violation of a variety of federal laws. I would be confident that the USG folks in the region are not making these kind of rookie mistakes.

To be very clear, this line buries the lead:

"The pullout of 50 to 100 U.S. special operations forces out of Kurd-held northern Syria is described in the media as a biblical-scale catastrophe, and it is affecting some of the anti-Trump conservatives like Ben Shapiro. I repeat: the number is between 50 and 100, and they are being relocated to spare them the crossfire in a purely ethnic Turk/Kurd conflict."

The Turks are not just going after the PKK, this is a much broader campaign. The bit about Antifa and whataboutism with the implication that the Kurds were responsible for what happened to the Armenians is particularly interesting BS, and does not even remotely address the issue that any number of host nation groups around the world, who are fighting terrorism side by side with the US, can now turn to their US partners and ask when they are going to be left hanging as well.

[Baldanders]

When stopping policing the world doesn't carry a risk of 3,000 American citizens getting killed midday in the Manhattan.

Proximate cause for 9/11 was the US putting troops on scacred Saudi soil during Gulf War part one. You know, when we started acting as "policeman" for the Middle East.

Our policing is the only reason we have threats in the first place.

I'm sure the first high-casualty attack by an African-born terrorist(s) on US soil will be splendid retro-justification for us having special forces all over the continent now.

What the US learned from Vietnam and the USSR: if you want a perpetual war, fight a concept ("terrorism") that's nice and vague. Fights with coherent ideological enemies ("Comintern") and actual nation states end in victory or defeat, eventually. The war on terrorism has no logical end. Our elites have no interest in shrinking the miltary-industrial complex that is the lifeblood of their power.

As previous posters have pointed out, pulling out of Syria isn't even a symbolic start to "bringing the troops home."

[GardoneVT]

Proximate cause for 9/11 was the US putting troops on scacred Saudi soil during Gulf War part one. You know, when we started acting as "policeman" for the Middle East.

Our policing is the only reason we have threats in the first place

Nope.

We tried the “mind our own business” approach before. The outcome was thousands of people dying in Hawaii one December morning. Minding our own national business is not an option- sooner or later someone’s gonna start a fight with the United States. We can either sling the lead 10,000 miles away, or wait for the bad guys to bring it to Main Street. Either way there’s gonna be a fight. OBL is a great example of this- his core beef with the US was our alliance with the Saudi Royal family (of which he was attached to). OBL was evil but he did have a geopolitical cause. There’s plenty of subhuman assholes who’d kill thousands like he did because they were bored.

In the 1940s Imperial Japan had to build a navy to attack the US. Today all you need are some choice missile systems and the element of surprise. Love it or hate it, we are at war 24/7 365 days a year with someone. No vacations, and no sick time.

[Baldanders]

Nope.

We tried the “mind our own business” approach before. The outcome was thousands of people dying in Hawaii one December morning. Minding our own national business is not an option- sooner or later someone’s gonna start a fight with the United States. We can either sling the lead 10,000 miles away, or wait for the bad guys to bring it to Main Street. Either way there’s gonna be a fight. OBL is a great example of this- his core beef with the US was our alliance with the Saudi Royal family (of which he was attached to). OBL was evil but he did have a geopolitical cause. There’s plenty of subhuman assholes who’d kill thousands like he did because they were bored.

In the 1940s Imperial Japan had to build a navy to attack the US. Today all you need are some choice missile systems and the element of surprise. Love it or hate it, we are at war 24/7 365 days a year with someone. No vacations, and no sick time.

Equating Iraq 1991 with Imperial Japan 1941 makes no sense. We were actively engaged in a region wide "cold" conflict with the latter before Pearl Harbor. War was probably inevitable between us. Iraq was a semi-ally, right up until they pissed us off. Then Kuwati propaganda (including fake news of war atrocities sold to the UN by "witnesses" who weren't in Kuwait for the invasion) and the Kuwati ruling class links with our ruling elites made "liberating" Kuwait a "vital US interest" as well as a "humanitarian" one. Not to mention keeping oil prices low was needed to stave off global chaos. Amazing how sky high oil prices due to the Saudis manipulating the market later, pre-fracking, seemed to be a storm we weathered just fine.

Please tell me how we would be one iota less safe without the Gulf War. (1991) Even if the next phase had been a general war in the Middle East, we would have been unscathed if we stayed out. Middle eastern conflicts only endanger the US when we show up to participate. Our links to Saudi Arabia are the biggest ongoing threat we have. They are the country which has the citizens that despise us more than any other, I think 9/11 proved that. And they hate us because we prop up the evil monarchy that cryshes them under it's heel.

But we must prop them up, "to stop terrorism." The US world strategy for fighting terrorism makes about as much sense as building walls out of sugar to keep picnics safe from ants.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

We tried the “mind our own business” approach before.

We did not mind our own business with Japan. We objected to their actions in China. We cut off oil and steel supplies necessary for their industrial and military complexes. They had wanted the Chinese territory as resources were so limited in Japan proper. They saw the Western powers being imperialist and did not see why they could not do the same. Thus, the Dutch East Indies offered the petrochemical resources. We would probably oppose their takeover and the Philippines stood over their supply lines. Before the war, they debate whether to go for military conquest or pure economic competition. For cultural reasons they went for military.

Their miscalculation was that they thought we wouldn't fight hard and come to a negotiated settlement. They didn't know we would go bat shit crazy and want to invade the home islands.

Some historians also feel that the American and European pressures to open up in the 1800's (Perry, for example - shelling various ports to demand trade, etc.) set up a need for revenge. Thus, Pearl Harbor and the conquest of Malaya paid the USA and UK back for those actions. Even if unsuccessful in the end, it made the point that they were not a trivial non-white set of inferiors. We had no 'right' to force them to open up, except wanting to make a buck or a pound or a franc.

One problem was that the Japanese thought it would go the same way as after the Battle of Tsushima. Inflict a great naval defeat and then negotiate. Taking out the BBs at Pearl and the two British ones off Malaya, would do it.

The Chinese currently have the same view, looking to pay the world back for the imperialist indignity inflicted on them.

About GW1 - there is a semireasonable argument that Saddam was on his way to nuclear weapons so that was worth stopping. However, that wasn't causal. There was also a semireasonable view there was a general principle after WWII that we didn't let one country take over another. Of course, that was never really enforced if it didn't suit us. Certainly, the Hungarians in 1956 weren't bailed out. Gulf War 1 could be seen as a mistale in hindsight. Certainly the follow up with troops in Saudi Arabia was a big screw up.

Our troops and planes there is another oil can screw up. Let them use the F-15s, Tornados, Eurofighters, etc. to defend themselves. Oh, they don't know how to fly them except in a straight line and right turns only.

[GardoneVT]

We did not mind our own business with Japan. We objected to their actions in China. We cut off oil and steel supplies necessary for their industrial and military complexes. They had wanted the Chinese territory as resources were so limited in Japan proper. They saw the Western powers being imperialist and did not see why they could not do the same. Thus, the Dutch East Indies offered the petrochemical resources. We would probably oppose their takeover and the Philippines stood over their supply lines. Before the war, they debate whether to go for military conquest or pure economic competition. For cultural reasons they went for military.

Their miscalculation was that they thought we wouldn't fight hard and come to a negotiated settlement. They didn't know we would go bat shit crazy and want to invade the home islands.

An excellent analysis Mr Meyer. Japan felt threatened by our commercial policies to their country. They thus felt a military solution was the answer. So long as we have to trade with other countries, we risk military involvement. Whether by choice or not. The alternative would be total economic and military withdrawal from the rest of the world ,which would not guarantee peace either. We return to the point made earlier- the United States of America will always be at war with someone.

[TiroFijo]

We did not mind our own business with Japan. We objected to their actions in China. We cut off oil and steel supplies necessary for their industrial and military complexes. They had wanted the Chinese territory as resources were so limited in Japan proper. They saw the Western powers being imperialist and did not see why they could not do the same. Thus, the Dutch East Indies offered the petrochemical resources. We would probably oppose their takeover and the Philippines stood over their supply lines. Before the war, they debate whether to go for military conquest or pure economic competition. For cultural reasons they went for military.
......

Glenn, this is truly an excellent post.

GardoneVT

"So long as we have to trade with other countries, we risk military involvement. Whether by choice or not."

The US took the Philippines, Hawaiii, etc., Perry entered Japan by force, western countries had major territorial and commercial control in northern China in the 1900's, the US had control over banana republics in central america, the largely artificial creation of Saudi Arabia to get its oil, the list goes on and on...

"Trade" is a misnomer in so many cases. "Domination" would perhaps be more accurate.

Things are what they are. The US didn't end up as the world's policeman by accident.

[YVK]

Proximate cause for 9/11 was the US putting troops on scacred Saudi soil during Gulf War part one.

Proximate cause of US troops deploying in Saudi Arabia was the Gulf War that the US didn't start, and the request of Saudi government. Good enough reasons for me; besides, killing 3000 civilians due to proximate cause of US troops being a whole 400 km from Medina seems, should we say, somewhat exaggerated?

I have very little interest in establishing a chicken or egg relationship in this instance, or others of such kind, for that matter. I find a significant satisfaction in knowing that groups or factions who fly airplanes into buildings, behead civilians, burn captured enemies alive, use rape as a systemic weapon, destroy schools, etc etc, etc get pounded by us all around the world, whatever shithole they might be in.

[GardoneVT]

Glenn, this is truly an excellent post.

GardoneVT

"So long as we have to trade with other countries, we risk military involvement. Whether by choice or not."

The US took the Philippines, Hawaiii, etc., Perry entered Japan by force, western countries had major territorial and commercial control in northern China in the 1900's, the US had control over banana republics in central america, the largely artificial creation of Saudi Arabia to get its oil, the list goes on and on...

"Trade" is a misnomer in so many cases. "Domination" would perhaps be more accurate.

Things are what they are. The US didn't end up as the world's policeman by accident.

Trade or domination. What is done is done, and we stand here with the pluses and minuses of those decisions. There is no opt out of the global policeman role even if it’s an intellectually better policy.

[Baldanders]

Proximate cause of US troops deploying in Saudi Arabia was the Gulf War that the US didn't start, and the request of Saudi government. Good enough reasons for me; besides, killing 3000 civilians due to proximate cause of US troops being a whole 400 km from Medina seems, should we say, somewhat exaggerated?

I have very little interest in establishing a chicken or egg relationship in this instance, or others of such kind, for that matter. I find a significant satisfaction in knowing that groups or factions who fly airplanes into buildings, behead civilians, burn captured enemies alive, use rape as a systemic weapon, destroy schools, etc etc, etc get pounded by us all around the world, whatever shithole they might be in.

And most of the American public is with you, not wanting to see the eggs that we plant around the world that will hatch into far worse than chickens, and that will likely come to roost with us one day. And most folks seem fine with being servants to the Saudis, to the point that that role is now tied up with patriotism for many.

Saudi investments in our ruling class have paid off handsomely for them. And decades of propaganda from our ruling classes has made us good servants to them, and to the concept of the Forvever War.

Indeed, as far as our elites are concerned, there is no opting out of the global policeman role, for it would mean abandoning their rationale for why they need to be in control in the first place.

[YVK]

We will never know what would've have hatched or whether it was going to be better of worse than what we have now. History doesn't have a redo options, and often times whatever we do falls under damned if you do, and damned if you don't. We can always critique powers in retrospect and wish things would have been done better, it is easy. I don't have much illusions about post-modern imperialism, military influence over economic areas of interest, power plays of riches etc. However, on this one bit of a conversation that you engaged me in, I would like to paraphrase Mr. Freud: sometimes evil is just evil. That we have military presence in every corner of the world, whether needed or not, or have gotten into shit that we may have been better off staying out doesn't cross talk with us fucking up those who deserve that.

[Joe in PNG]

This brings us back to the question of "what do we do then for the Kurds?"
What concrete action should the US take?

[Jeep]

Trade or domination. What is done is done, and we stand here with the pluses and minuses of those decisions. There is no opt out of the global policeman role even if it’s an intellectually better policy.

I'm afraid you are right. As far as I can tell, Plato didn't say that "only the dead have seen the end of war," but he should have. No matter how much we want to pull all our troops home, it is never going to happen. The zoomies and the Special Forces (including all the SOFs) are going to be operating in countless foreign countries for the rest of our lives and the lives of our grandkids.

It kills me that our elites, who never serve themselves, make fortunes out of this; and it kills me that our tax burdens keep increasing on average Americans, in part because of it. But like it or not, we became an accidental empire in World War 2 and have been fighting imperial wars ever since. As a result, both parties have created an imperial presidency that is a far cry from the modest office of a very modest federal government envisioned in the Constitution--a document we stopped following about the same time we became an accidental empire.

As for the Syrian Kurds all our options are bad.

[GardoneVT]

This brings us back to the question of "what do we do then for the Kurds?"
What concrete action should the US take?

The one we’re taking, sadly. Standing up for the Kurds means war with Turkey. Setting aside the NATO issue, removing Erdogan from power risks another Libya incident. Last thing we need is a pro- Russian or pro-ISIL state where Turkey used to be.

Leaving the Kurds to their fate with Turkey is abandoning a steadfast ally to an autocratic regime with the loyalty of a meth dealer.

[Borderland]

This brings us back to the question of "what do we do then for the Kurds?"
What concrete action should the US take?

There isn't a lot you can do for them at this stage in the game. The lines are being redrawn in Syria as Turkey says it will be. You have a very potent military power there just like Iraq did under Saddam. When he invaded Kuwait that was seen as a major threat to US oil interests. He got stomped.

The US isn't going to confront a NATO member who wants to control a little more real estate in Syria. It's the middle east for crying out loud. Does anyone give a shit about the Palestinians. Maybe Israel because they keep firing rockets at their civilian population but nobody really cares about their problems. Does the US really give a shit about Syria or the Kurds? Not really.

My take on all of this is the US is trying to maintain a military presence. The US is doing that in Turkey and Syria. I get flummoxed by people who say we're nation building. Doesn't have a damned thing to do with nation building. As long as we have some military presence in the area and the local authority says we can stay there and doesn't try to throw you out with military force, that's all that matters.

The US has it's fingers in a lot of pies. Been doing it for a long time. It's what we do. Even Jefferson was smart enough to send a military expedition across the continent to see what we should endeavor to control. Trumps a rookie making rookie moves. Where's Stormy Daniels when you need her?

[Joe in PNG]

The one we’re taking, sadly. Standing up for the Kurds means war with Turkey. Setting aside the NATO issue, removing Erdogan from power risks another Libya incident. Last thing we need is a pro- Russian or pro-ISIL state where Turkey used to be.

Leaving the Kurds to their fate with Turkey is abandoning a steadfast ally to an autocratic regime with the loyalty of a meth dealer.

Sadly, we're not all that different on the "loyalty of a meth dealer" thing.
In some ways, better to abandon now then to spend years, thousands of American and Kurdish lives, billions of dollars, political capital, ect, and then abandon them because the war has become politically unpopular.

The bigger problem is not that the US interferes with the affairs of other countries, or that the USA should or should not. It's that we start interfering, lose political will, and leave things worse than they were. We don't seen to be able to follow through long term, or go with measures that aren't half-arsed and temporary.

[Joe in PNG]

It's what we do. Trumps a rookie making rookie moves.

Name a recent US President who hasn't. Even Ike had his share of screwups.

[Borderland]

Name a recent US President who hasn't. Even Ike had his share of screwups.

Well crap. At least they consulted their military advisors before they rang up the dip shit they were about to concede to.

Trump has his head up his ass. Nobody with any military background wants anything to do the idiot. That should be pretty clear with all of the military defections in his cabinet.

[Zincwarrior]

Nope.

We tried the “mind our own business” approach before. The outcome was thousands of people dying in Hawaii one December morning. Minding our own national business is not an option- sooner or later someone’s gonna start a fight with the United States. We can either sling the lead 10,000 miles away, or wait for the bad guys to bring it to Main Street. Either way there’s gonna be a fight. OBL is a great example of this- his core beef with the US was our alliance with the Saudi Royal family (of which he was attached to). OBL was evil but he did have a geopolitical cause. There’s plenty of subhuman assholes who’d kill thousands like he did because they were bored.

In the 1940s Imperial Japan had to build a navy to attack the US. Today all you need are some choice missile systems and the element of surprise. Love it or hate it, we are at war 24/7 365 days a year with someone. No vacations, and no sick time.

We didn't mind our own business. We arranged an oil embargo on Japan after they occupied Indochina.

Edit: ninja'd!

[ranger]

The French helped us during the Revolution even though we weren't there for them during the Hundred Years' War.

I think the French helping us was a little deeper than they just wanted to help the fledging Colonialists - they had their own strategic reasons to poke England in the eye. We paid them back in WW1 and WW2 but they often forget they would be speaking German now except for us.

[blues]

I think the French helping us was a little deeper than they just wanted to help the fledging Colonialists - they had their own strategic reasons to poke England in the eye. We paid them back in WW1 and WW2 but they often forget they would be speaking German now except for us.

There's a difference between forgetting and intentionally failing to acknowledge.

(I don't cast this net over the entire populace...I know for a fact that that's simply not the case.)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

but they often forget they would be speaking German now except for us.

Probably, they would speaking Russian after WWII. There's good evidence that Stalin would have beat the Germans (the Russians did the majority of the land battle) and then rolled over France. Not that we didn't contribute to Nazi defeat.

In WWI, by the time we entered both sides were exhausted and teetering on the edge of collapse. Our arriving forces helped convince the Germans to give it up. If we hadn't entered, probably would have had socialist revolution across all of Europe and maybe the UK.

Before our entry though, it's true we supplied the Allies with material and funding that made their efforts possible. Our military contribution was more potential than actual. Not that brave Americans didn't fight at the end.

I was surprised at the amount of German collaboration in the USA during WWI by some. It far exceeded anything we see now from Muslim populations in the USA.

[Le Français]

I think the French helping us was a little deeper than they just wanted to help the fledging Colonialists - they had their own strategic reasons to poke England in the eye. We paid them back in WW1 and WW2 but they often forget they would be speaking German now except for us.

I think the Americans helping the French in the world wars was motivated by something a little deeper than wanting to help France - the Americans had their own strategic reasons for poking Germany in the eye. The Americans owed the French after the Revolutionary War, but the Americans often forget they would be subjects now except for France.

[Rick62]

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2019/10/09/the-us-played-down-turkeys-concerns-about-syrian-kurdish-forces-that-couldnt-last/

Fairly balanced take from Brookings.

tl;dr The messaging was poor, and the implementation was sloppy, but the events unfolding currently are wholly unsurprising.

My .02: The pearl clutching has largely been disingenuous and politically motivated, or genuine, but by those who don't have a firm grasp of the reality on the ground.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The concept of 'owed' is interesting. Most countries act in their self interest. A monarchy in France acted for the Colonies as it suited them. I wonder if the King thought that the American Revolution would be an inspiration to his countryfolk when it all came to a head in France.

Pure altruism - does it exist? A German Europe - wouldn't serve our interests. Neither did a Japanese empire in Asia. Supporting the Colonies added France against England, the same. We fought a shadow war against France just a little later. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-War .

[blues]

I think the Americans helping the French in the world wars was motivated by something a little deeper than wanting to help France - the Americans had their own strategic reasons for poking Germany in the eye. The Americans owed the French after the Revolutionary War, but the Americans often forget they would be subjects now except for France.


Touché! Well played, mon ami.

[GardoneVT]

Bringing things back to topic, it’s a wise point to note that there are no good actors in the Middle East- including ourselves. Fighting bad guys frequently means allying with other bad guys, which is a great way to end up a villain yourself.

On the positive side, this time next year the Kurds and Turks will be our friends again, fighting another group of fundamentalist jagoffs. The great thing about war is you always get a repeat opportunity.(/s)

[Zincwarrior]

Reports are Turkish militia is executing prisoners. Other reports are noting ISIL POWs are escaping.

[Stephanie B]

I think the French helping us was a little deeper than they just wanted to help the fledging Colonialists - they had their own strategic reasons to poke England in the eye. We paid them back in WW1 and WW2 but they often forget they would be speaking German now except for us.

Wrong language. They would have been learning Russian.

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

I'd just like to thank OP for using "incursion" in the thread title rather than "invasion", lest Erdogan unleash 3.6 million refugees on the rest of Europe...

[Chance]

1183355409362554880

[Chance]

From BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50039106):


Syrian government forces have started to reach the north of the country, hours after the government agreed to help Kurdish forces facing Turkey.

Syrian state media say government forces entered Ain Issa on Monday, 30km (19 miles) south of the Turkish border.

The deal came after the US, the Kurds' main ally, said it would withdraw its remaining troops from northern Syria.

....

The Kurdish-led administration in northern Syria announced it had reached an agreement on Sunday for the army to deploy along border areas controlled by Kurdish forces to "repel [Turkish] aggression".

For now, they will not be deployed between Tal Abyad and Ras al-Ain, where Turkey has focused its efforts.

Kurdish-led authorities insist they will remain in charge politically and retain order in the area.

unday's deal represents a significant shift in alliances for the Kurds.

Despite suffering decades of suppression, Syria's main Kurdish parties publicly avoided taking sides when the country descended into civil war in 2011. When forces loyal to President Bashar al-Assad withdrew from mainly Kurdish areas to fight rebels elsewhere the following year, Kurdish militias took control.

In 2015 they became critical partners on the ground of the US-led multinational coalition against IS. With the help of US airpower and weaponry, the Kurds drove the jihadist group out of more than a quarter of Syria and declared the creation of a "federal system" to govern it. While the Syrian government rejected the declaration and the intervention of the US, which supported the uprising against Mr Assad, it has not sought to retake the territory.

The biggest Kurdish party has said it is not seeking independence, but insists that any political settlement to end Syria's civil war includes guarantees for Kurdish rights and recognition of their autonomy. The Syrian government has rejected the Kurdish demands for autonomy.

[Zincwarrior]

So the Syrian Kurds have now joined with the Syrian government (backed by Russia and Iran), against Turkey? What could go wrong?

[blues]

So the Syrian Kurds have now joined with the Syrian government (backed by Russia and Iran), against Turkey? What could go wrong?

The world is a ghetto.

[Borderland]

From BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50039106):

The Kurds are now in bed with Assad.

Putin should hugely like what Trump, the Kurds and Syria have done here.

Democrats should also thank Trump for this massive foreign policy blunder.

Right up there with the Clinton Benghazi blunder.

The tide turns.

[Zincwarrior]

The world is a ghetto.

Wait I thought the world was a vampire. :cool:

[Stephanie B]

The Kurds are now in bed with Assad.

Putin should hugely like what Trump, the Kurds and Syria have done here.

Democrats should also thank Trump for this massive foreign policy blunder.

Right up there with the Clinton Benghazi blunder.

The tide turns.
The death toll among the Kurds may be in the thousands. The people, who suffered many thousands of combat casualties while fighting ISIS with our soldiers, have had to turn for help to our enemies. ISIS fighters have been released because the Kurds have other things to do. Our own troops are voicing shame at this.

I see no reason to be thankful for the human death toll and the misery that accompanies this latest example of the fact that Trump is both impulsive and dumber than a bag of hammers.

[Borderland]

The death toll among the Kurds may be in the thousands. The people, who suffered many thousands of combat casualties while fighting ISIS with our soldiers, have had to turn for help to our enemies. ISIS fighters have been released because the Kurds have other things to do. Our own troops are voicing shame at this.

I see no reason to be thankful for the human death toll and the misery that accompanies this latest example of the fact that Trump is both impulsive and dumber than a bag of hammers.

A foreign policy genius he isn't. :(

I guess the GOP is starting to figure that out.

[GardoneVT]

What could go wrong?

We re-deploy to back up Turkey against the Kurds & Assad’s forces.

[blues]

Pave paradise and put up a parking lot.

[Zincwarrior]

We re-deploy to back up Turkey against the Kurds & Assad’s forces.

World War III starts when warfare between Russia and Turkey escalates?

[Stephanie B]

We re-deploy to back up Turkey against the Kurds & Assad’s forces.

Yeah. Watch the Turks try to invoke NATO Article 5 if they get into a fight with Syria and/or Russia.

In the words of John Crichton: "We are so screwed."

[Grey]

Yeah. Watch the Turks try to invoke NATO Article 5 if they get into a fight with Syria and/or Russia.

Watch the US say hell no, ya'll don't pay your fair share so we aren't coming to help you...

[Zincwarrior]

Watch the US say hell no, ya'll don't pay your fair share so we aren't coming to help you...
Thats not how treaties work.

[Duelist]

Thats not how treaties work.

Does it work like, "We started a fight, and seem to have bitten off more than we can chew. Come help!"

[blues]

Thats not how treaties work.

I'd feel more comfortable, in current climes, to say "that's not how treaties are supposed to work".

[Zincwarrior]

Does it work like, "We started a fight, and seem to have bitten off more than we can chew. Come help!"

It works like "we are activating Article 2 of the North Atlantic Treaty as we have been attacked by a foreign power. You are treaty bound to aid us against attack, up to and including declaring war."

Or we could ignore them and show NATO is paper tiger. Watch Poland and Germany go berserk re-arming and becoming nuclear powers in three months, assuming Russia doesn't invade them first for old time sake.

I doubt that will happen. Russia is making money selling stuff to Iran, Syria and Turkey and is now the definitive power in the region.

Israel has already made some moves to be more friendly with them. That is prudent.

[Grey]

Thats not how treaties work.

I didn't really do a good job with my sarcasm did I?


I'd feel more comfortable, in current climes, to say "that's not how treaties are supposed to work".

Exactly my point, we are so beyond "how things are supposed to work" at this point who the hell knows what is going to happen next...

[Zincwarrior]

I didn't really do a good job with my sarcasm did I?



Exactly my point, we are so beyond "how things are supposed to work" at this point who the hell knows what is going to happen next...

Sorry, got me on that one. :D

[HCM]

So apparently ABC news used video from the 2017 Knob Creek Machine gun shoot in Kentucky and tried to pass it off as video of Turkish forces attacking the Kurds in Syria.

https://mobile.twitter.com/PolishPatriotTM/status/1183695628288827392


https://youtu.be/BrH8bClnlzQ

[Borderland]

So apparently ABC news used video from the 2017 Knob Creek Machine gun shoot in Kentucky and tried to pass it off as video of Turkish forces attacking the Kurds in Syria.

https://mobile.twitter.com/PolishPatriotTM/status/1183695628288827392


https://youtu.be/BrH8bClnlzQ

ABC? No way would they use that to enhance a story.:rolleyes:

[Borderland]

As this develops, I'm not seeing how Bidens are not implicated in some kind of sweetheart deal in Ukraine.

If Bolton testifies (remember that Trump fired him also) it might be real bad for Shogun Joe. Bolton distanced himself from the monkey business early on. He thought Giuliani was/is a hand grenade and probably one of the reasons he jumped ship. He won't have anything good to say about Giuliani if he testifies, that's for sure.

Might as well expose all of the corruption and underhanded political deals for profit. Take out all the trash while we're at it.

[blues]

As this develops, I'm not seeing how Bidens are not implicated in some kind of sweetheart deal in Ukraine.

If Bolton testifies (remember that Trump fired him also) it might be real bad for Shogun Joe. Bolton distanced himself from the monkey business early on. He thought Giuliani was/is a hand grenade and probably one of the reasons he jumped ship. He won't have anything good to say about Giuliani if he testifies, that's for sure.

Might as well expose all of the corruption and underhanded political deals for profit. Take out all the trash while we're at it.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-aimpK6KZtII/WTadifECYII/AAAAAAAAWwE/EEkjjc-R-D827qWSTYZ9k808ABDa1y48wCLcB/s1600/Empty%2BHouse%2Bof%2BRep.jpg

[Zincwarrior]

As this develops, I'm not seeing how Bidens are not implicated in some kind of sweetheart deal in Ukraine.

If Bolton testifies (remember that Trump fired him also) it might be real bad for Shogun Joe. Bolton distanced himself from the monkey business early on. He thought Giuliani was/is a hand grenade and probably one of the reasons he jumped ship. He won't have anything good to say about Giuliani if he testifies, that's for sure.

Might as well expose all of the corruption and underhanded political deals for profit. Take out all the trash while we're at it.

I think you meant this in another thread.

Note: reports are that Russian troops are now patrolling between Syrian and Turkish troops in former Kurd territory.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/15/russian-troops-patrol-between-turkish-and-syrian-forces-on-border

[blues]

Note: reports are that Russian troops are now patrolling between Syrian and Turkish troops in former Kurd territory.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/15/russian-troops-patrol-between-turkish-and-syrian-forces-on-border

No collusion...

[Chance]

From BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50058859):


Russia has said it will not allow clashes between Turkish and Syrian forces, as Turkey's military offensive in northern Syria continues.

"This would simply be unacceptable... and therefore we will not allow it, of course," said Moscow's special envoy for Syria, Alexander Lavrentyev.

....

Russia is a key military ally of Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad.

Russia's defence ministry said its forces, which have been deployed in Syria since 2015, were patrolling along the "line of contact" between Syrian and Turkish forces.

During a visit to the United Arab Emirates, Mr Lavrentyev described Turkey's offensive as "unacceptable".

He said that under previous agreements Turkey can only go 5-10km (3-6 miles) into Syria - far less than the 30km "safe zone" Ankara is proposing - and that Turkey has no right to permanently deploy its troops in the country. Syria is in contact with Turkey to avoid a conflict, he said.

Mr Lavrentyev also confirmed that Russia had helped to broker a deal between Kurds and Damascus that saw Kurdish-led forces cede territory to Syrian government troops in return for military support.

[ranger]

I think you meant this in another thread.

Note: reports are that Russian troops are now patrolling between Syrian and Turkish troops in former Kurd territory.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/15/russian-troops-patrol-between-turkish-and-syrian-forces-on-border

Let them sacrifice some blood and capital there for a few years/decades - maybe keep them out of trouble elsewhere.

[Zincwarrior]

Let them sacrifice some blood and capital there for a few years/decades - maybe keep them out of trouble elsewhere.
Indeed, after all its not been a strategic policy since 1950 to keep the Soviets, er Russians out of the ME or anything. Its not like thats why Turkey is in NATO in the first place.

You have to hand it to Putin. He did what no premier could do. Of course Khruschev faced Eisenhower, Breznev faced Nixon. Putin faced well never mind.

[Borderland]

I think you meant this in another thread.

Note: reports are that Russian troops are now patrolling between Syrian and Turkish troops in former Kurd territory.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/15/russian-troops-patrol-between-turkish-and-syrian-forces-on-border

brain fart.

[blues]

Let them sacrifice some blood and capital there for a few years/decades - maybe keep them out of trouble elsewhere.

Let's wish them another Afghanistan-like adventure.

[the Schwartz]

Let's wish them another Afghanistan-like adventure.

Better them than us.

In the grand scheme of international predation, this is a minor event at best/worst.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The seventy year old club of wisdom at lunch decided that if we were the leaders of Israel, Japan and South Korea we would start producing all the nuclear weapons we could. That is the only thing that has deterrent value in today's threat environment.

Certainly, not trust the USA to come to our rescue or even make a deterrent threat.

Taiwan is toast, just wait a few years. They should make a stronger deal but one like one that Hong Kong had for some kind of semi-autonomy. Might not be going well there now but you get the idea.

Personally, I'd kiss Turkey off. Needing to control the Bosphorus to prevent the Russian fleet from threatening the Suez canal is so old school British Empire. Let them be a Russian vassal state.

[Baldanders]

The seventy year old club of wisdom at lunch decided that if we were the leaders of Israel, Japan and South Korea we would start producing all the nuclear weapons we could.
Estimates place Israel's warhead count between 100-400.

They may be good.

[Grey]

The seventy year old club of wisdom at lunch decided that if we were the leaders of Israel, Japan and South Korea we would start producing all the nuclear weapons we could. That is the only thing that has deterrent value in today's threat environment.

Certainly, not trust the USA to come to our rescue or even make a deterrent threat.

Taiwan is toast, just wait a few years. They should make a stronger deal but one like one that Hong Kong had for some kind of semi-autonomy. Might not be going well there now but you get the idea.

Personally, I'd kiss Turkey off. Needing to control the Bosphorus to prevent the Russian fleet from threatening the Suez canal is so old school British Empire. Let them be a Russian vassal state.Korea has no nukes... Is Japan even allowed to make nukes?

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[MK11]

Turkey Holds 50 U.S. Nukes Hostage At Air Base (https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-nuclear-bombs-hostage-syria) according to Fox News.

Will Trump be more concerned by this or the prospect of Trump Towers Instanbul getting nationalized?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Korea has no nukes... Is Japan even allowed to make nukes?

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

S. Korea had a nuke program but we pressured them and shut it down. The Japanese Constitution forbids such but times are changing. They are building up their first aircraft carriers with F-35s. They are originally helicopter carriers (wink, wink) but a size that allowed conversion. They supposedly have from their reactors enough plutonium for many nukes (wink, wink) and could field a weapon in 6 months. Abe wants to explicitly change their constitution to allow continued build up.

So my point is that with American alliances meaning nothing under Trump - I would max out my country's capabilities.

[Grey]

S. Korea had a nuke program but we pressured them and shut it down. The Japanese Constitution forbids such but times are changing. They are building up their first aircraft carriers with F-35s. They are originally helicopter carriers (wink, wink) but a size that allowed conversion. They supposedly have from their reactors enough plutonium for many nukes (wink, wink) and could field a weapon in 6 months. Abe wants to explicitly change their constitution to allow continued build up.

So my point is that with American alliances meaning nothing under Trump - I would max out my country's capabilities.

Oh I agree 100%, I just wasn't sure what the situation was on the peninsula in terms of weapon capability, thanks for the added info.

[Zincwarrior]

Turkey Holds 50 U.S. Nukes Hostage At Air Base (https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-nuclear-bombs-hostage-syria) according to Fox News.

Will Trump be more concerned by this or the prospect of Trump Towers Instanbul getting nationalized?
The latter. To quote an epic film. "All other considerations rescinded."

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Oh I agree 100%, I just wasn't sure what the situation was on the peninsula in terms of weapon capability, thanks for the added info.

No problem. There are plans for conventional subs that have substantial cruise missile capability. Sweden would sell such. Japan builds what are called the best conventional subs in the world. They have their own versions of most conventional missiles. I could see them having a sea based nuke cruise capacity in a very short time. They certainly have the home grown rockets for IRBMs, ICBMs. They are debating their own stealth fighter. They make a marine patrol plane that looks as good as the P-8s. The warrior spirit is not dead.

One stupid thing was that way back they wanted to (along with the Australians and Israelis) to buy F-22s. We didn't sell them as we wanted to keep them secret. Those sales might have lowered the price so our own order wouldn't have been cut so short (700 to 200). So now we sell F-35s to everyone - including the despicable Turks being involved in their construction. Now the purchase of S-400s from Russia, killed that (although Trump and Lindsey G - his special friend complained about that).

Make Russia your special friend now or tool up for your own defense. We are out of the game as a dependable ally.

[Borderland]

Turkey Holds 50 U.S. Nukes Hostage At Air Base (https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-nuclear-bombs-hostage-syria) according to Fox News.

Will Trump be more concerned by this or the prospect of Trump Towers Instanbul getting nationalized?

That air base and those nukes are going to become a serious problem for the US. If Turkey decides to close that base and keep those nules there isn't a lot the US can do about it. They just gave the middle finger to the US and now the US wants to sanction Turkey. That should work out real well. :( Turkey will probably close that base to the US and keep those nukes.

What is the US going to do about it, place some tariffs on the country and refuse to sell them anymore weapons. I think they're already buying weapons from Russia anyway.

https://youtu.be/g5NBauXrXyw

Trump's plan is to let the Russians control the middle east. That should be obvious to everyone by now.

So yeah, his real estate interests are probably a yuge consideration here. I'm not seeing how it could be anything else. Just about everything he does regarding foreign policy goes against the advice of people who understand the situation far better then he.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Turkey already discounted the sanctions (which are fairly trivial). https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/10/trump-syria-turkey-sanctions/600055/

Most countries have not had behavior changed by sanctions. The only clear case might have been South Africa but that was correlated with a societal and cultural realization about apartheid.

Oil and steel sanctions against Japan helped get us Pearl Harbor.

Do we care if Russia makes the Middle East into vassal states? If you worry about Israel, perhaps, if not?

[Zincwarrior]

Turkey already discounted the sanctions (which are fairly trivial). https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2019/10/trump-syria-turkey-sanctions/600055/

Most countries have not had behavior changed by sanctions. The only clear case might have been South Africa but that was correlated with a societal and cultural realization about apartheid.

Oil and steel sanctions against Japan helped get us Pearl Harbor.

Do we care if Russia makes the Middle East into vassal states? If you worry about Israel, perhaps, if not?

one concern is that Russia makes much of the oil and gas production of the world a part of its influence.

[GardoneVT]

That air base and those nukes are going to become a serious problem for the US. If Turkey decides to close that base and keep those nules there isn't a lot the US can do about it. They just gave the middle finger to the US and now the US wants to sanction Turkey. That should work out real well. :( Turkey will probably close that base to the US and keep those nukes.

What is the US going to do about it, place some tariffs on the country and refuse to sell them anymore weapons. I think they're already buying weapons from Russia anyway.

https://youtu.be/g5NBauXrXyw

Trump's plan is to let the Russians control the middle east. That should be obvious to everyone by now.

So yeah, his real estate interests are probably a yuge consideration here. I'm not seeing how it could be anything else. Just about everything he does regarding foreign policy goes against the advice of people who understand the situation far better then he.


Let them keep the nukes.In fact, lets give Erdogan an extra hundred or so. If youre gonna forment regional chaos , dont half-ass it.

[Borderland]

Let them keep the nukes.In fact, lets give Erdogan an extra hundred or so. If youre gonna forment regional chaos , dont half-ass it.

Good point.

A nuke was certainly a deciding factor to reset the balance of power in 1945. Maybe that happens in the ME. Almost happened in the 6 day war with Israel and Egypt. Egypt came pretty close to being nuked. Nobody talks about that much these days.

[Medusa]

I hope to f*ck this isn’t real.

43692

[GardoneVT]

I hope to f*ck this isn’t real.

43692

Can’t be. Trump delivers his national policy info through Twitter, not White House letterhead.

[wvincent]

I hope to f*ck this isn’t real.

43692

What's the problem? Succinct, fair, easily understood. Erdogan has had this letter for how long and we don't hear him crying about it.

[Medusa]

What's the problem? Succinct, fair, easily understood. Erdogan has had this letter for how long and we don't hear him crying about it.

Your post gives true meaning to the saying, one person’s reductio ad absurdum is another’s modus tollens, or modus ponens.

[wvincent]

Your post gives true meaning to the saying, one person’s reductio ad absurdum is another’s modus tollens.

You act like this letter was addressed to you. It wasn't.
Like I said, we don't hear Erdogan crying about. Obviously, he got the message, or else he wouldn't be meeting with VP Pence and team. What are you worried about? Erdogan is gonna get pissed and invade Syria?
Turkey is up to it's neck in fugee's, to the tune of 3.6 million of them. They want to send them home, or somewhere else.
Let Trump do his deal making magic, it's what he does best.:D

It's almost like you enjoy being "outraged"

[Medusa]

https://youtu.be/7uYzaOIWmYU


You act like this letter was addressed to you. It wasn't.
Like I said, we don't hear Erdogan crying about. Obviously, he got the message, or else he wouldn't be meeting with VP Pence and team. What are you worried about? Erdogan is gonna get pissed and invade Syria?
Turkey is up to it's neck in fugee's, to the tune of 3.6 million of them. They want to send them home, or somewhere else.
Let Trump do his deal making magic, it's what he does best.:D

It's almost like you enjoy being "outraged"

[Borderland]

What's the problem? Succinct, fair, easily understood. Erdogan has had this letter for how long and we don't hear him crying about it.

What's to cry about?

Trump did exactly what Erdogan wanted him to do.

Played him like Aleksey Igudesman would play a violin.

Still playing. Now featured, Pence and Pompeo violins being played.

Great entertainment.

[blues]

Do you really think that conversation would be transmitted via letter in that manner?

[Zincwarrior]

Do you really think that conversation would be transmitted via letter in that manner?

I am sure they were both laughing about it on the he call after. We've got hotels to protect after all.

[Borderland]

Do you really think that conversation would be transmitted via letter in that manner?

No. More fake news.

[Borderland]

You act like this letter was addressed to you. It wasn't.
Like I said, we don't hear Erdogan crying about. Obviously, he got the message, or else he wouldn't be meeting with VP Pence and team. What are you worried about? Erdogan is gonna get pissed and invade Syria?
Turkey is up to it's neck in fugee's, to the tune of 3.6 million of them. They want to send them home, or somewhere else.
Let Trump do his deal making magic, it's what he does best.:D

It's almost like you enjoy being "outraged"

Anyone else in an outrage mood?

Happened today in the WH. Trump lost his cool. Pressure is on over Syria debacle. GOP is pissed.

I'm thinking Trump is going to put the WH off limits to Nancy and Charlie. Shoot on sight. ;)

Sometimes I think Pelosi plays the Trump violen.

[Baldanders]

Let them keep the nukes.In fact, lets give Erdogan an extra hundred or so. If youre gonna forment regional chaos , dont half-ass it.

Maybe nukes all over the ME would lead to real attempts at lasting peace.

Or radioactive glass.

Probably one or the other.

[GardoneVT]

Maybe nukes all over the ME would lead to real attempts at lasting peace.

Or radioactive glass.

Probably one or the other.

...or both at once.

[Baldanders]

Why does the phrase "I am not a crook" keep running through my head?

Hey, with the global equivalent of the Vietnam police action going on, Trump as Nixon II may work out well thematically in our retro-era.

Except he told China to fuck off instead of giving 'em a nice tug job. Nice closure, that.

Fuck you Heinlein, with that World-as-Myth shit. Seems more plausible all the time.

[wvincent]

Anyone else in an outrage mood?

Happened today in the WH. Trump lost his cool. Pressure is on over Syria debacle. GOP is pissed.

I'm thinking Trump is going to put the WH off limits to Nancy and Charlie. Shoot on sight. ;)

Sometimes I think Pelosi plays the Trump violen.

Oh, I dunno, based on reports and photo's, look like Nancy Pelosi is one who "lost his cool"
Not as many in the GOP as you think.
Syria debacle my ass. It's always a good time to leave in the ME.
All these Fucking Chicken Hawks, from the left and the right, who think we need to leave a standing army in Syria, should go hop on the closest C-141 and go over there and start kicking doors. Show us the depth of their convictions. We have no Congressional mandate to be there anyhow. If Congress feels so strong about committing troops to Syria, let's get it on the official record. Who are we to try and depose Assad? We played that stupid game in Libya with the Muslim Brotherhood, that worked out swell.

Yep, we're sending Troops to Saudi for security purposes, and the Kingdom is footing the bill. That's a win right there, getting paid to help stabilize the region.

Maybe we can become the new Black Hawk Security Contracting services?
Eric Prince for SecDef.!!!!!

[Drang]

So... Did the House of Representatives just vote that we should go to war with a NATO ally?

[Redhat]

Anyone else in an outrage mood?

Happened today in the WH. Trump lost his cool. Pressure is on over Syria debacle. GOP is pissed.

I'm thinking Trump is going to put the WH off limits to Nancy and Charlie. Shoot on sight. ;)

Sometimes I think Pelosi plays the Trump violen.

Are Pelosi and Shumer a couple of your fav congress critters? Not sure what your point is?

I agree with some...when are these folks beating the war drums going to sign up....or send their kids over to set things right? Why not have a draft and go finish it if they're serious?

Thx

[El Cid]

... should go hop on the closest C-141...

You’re showing your age sir. Lol! Closest 141’s are in AMARC. Of course I jumped from one many years ago so I’m right there with you.

[Borderland]

Are Pelosi and Shumer a couple of your fav congress critters? Not sure what your point is?

I agree with some...when are these folks beating the war drums going to sign up....or send their kids over to set things right? Why not have a draft and go finish it if they're serious?

Thx

Nope. Nancy is from CA, Chuck is from NY. I don't live in either place and I didn't vote for either one of them. I didn't vote for the dem reps from this state. I do however recognize the fact that they hold those offices as representatives of the voters from this state just as Trump was elected by the voters in a presidential election.

To disparage duly elected representatives like Trump does is to disparage the constitution and the system of government set out in the constitution. Nobody elected Trump to run congress or the judiciary, both of which are just as important as the executive branch. Says so in the constitution.

I never heard Pelosi or Schumer saying Trump is a third rate president. They may think that but as a matter of respect for the office they treat him with the respect that he deserves, at least in their official capacity.

Nobody is beating "the war drums". Trump made a serious foreign policy blunder that's going to bite him in the ass. Hide and watch if you don't believe that. Do you have any idea why people from the state dept are lining up to give testimony to congress? They all must be anti American I guess.

I guess you also disagreed with the war in Afghanistan. Oh well, those Muslim terrorists are just going kill Americans no matter what we do. It's just how they roll. :(

I never did like passivists. They end up like the Jews in Nazi Germany. If you don't want to go to war, don't sign the damn contract. Nobody's putting a gun to your head.

[Redhat]

Nope. Nancy is from CA, Chuck is from NY. I don't live in either place and I didn't vote for either one of them. I didn't vote for the dem reps from this state. I do however recognize the fact that they hold those offices as representatives of the voters from this state just as Trump was elected by the voters in a presidential election.

To disparage duly elected representatives like Trump does is to disparage the constitution and the system of government set out in the constitution. Nobody elected Trump to run congress or the judiciary, both of which are just as important as the executive branch. Says so in the constitution.

I never heard Pelosi or Schumer saying Trump is a third rate president. They may think that but as a matter of respect for the office they treat him with the respect that he deserves, at least in their official capacity.

Nobody is beating "the war drums". Trump made a serious foreign policy blunder that's going to bite him in the ass. Hide and watch if you don't believe that. Do you have any idea why people from the state dept are lining up to give testimony to congress? They all must be anti American I guess.

I guess you also disagreed with the war in Afghanistan. Oh well, those Muslim terrorists are just going kill Americans no matter what we do. It's just how they roll. :(

I never did like passivists. They end up like the Jews in Nazi Germany. If you don't want to go to war, don't sign the damn contract. Nobody's putting a gun to your head.

Sure they are, they want to fight. You seriously believe Pelosi / Shumer haven't talked trash about President Trump? I hope there is a recording of today's meeting and it gets released.

BTW, I never said I disagreed with AFG...but how long do we plan to stay there and what does success look like? PS, you can stick that passivist crap where it belongs if that's directed at me. If not, I apologize in advance.

[Grey]

Ahh... so apparently that letter is real... let that sink in for a minute... maybe let that sink in until 2020...

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Zincwarrior]

Oh, I dunno, based on reports and photo's, look like Nancy Pelosi is one who "lost his cool"
Not as many in the GOP as you think.
Syria debacle my ass. It's always a good time to leave in the ME.
All these Fucking Chicken Hawks, from the left and the right, who think we need to leave a standing army in Syria, should go hop on the closest C-141 and go over there and start kicking doors. Show us the depth of their convictions. We have no Congressional mandate to be there anyhow. If Congress feels so strong about committing troops to Syria, let's get it on the official record. Who are we to try and depose Assad? We played that stupid game in Libya with the Muslim Brotherhood, that worked out swell.

Yep, we're sending Troops to Saudi for security purposes, and the Kingdom is footing the bill. That's a win right there, getting paid to help stabilize the region.

Maybe we can become the new Black Hawk Security Contracting services?
Eric Prince for SecDef.!!!!!

So the US Army is just a subcontractor of the KSA now? When did they become mercenaries for hire?

[jetfire]

You’re showing your age sir. Lol! Closest 141’s are in AMARC. Of course I jumped from one many years ago so I’m right there with you.

It's all C-17s these days.

The Hercules is still solidering on.

[RJ]

The Hercules is still solidering on.

Yes, they are.

I’m pretty busy at work these days. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Glenn E. Meyer]

C-5s, C-17s and C-130s fly over my house all the time. If I'm working outside and see a C-5 in the distance, I grab my muffs. They are loud!

I saw one of the Antonovs at the Houston airport. That was HUUUUUGGGGEEE.

[Zincwarrior]

C-5s, C-17s and C-130s fly over my house all the time. If I'm working outside and see a C-5 in the distance, I grab my muffs. They are loud!

I saw one of the Antonovs at the Houston airport. That was HUUUUUGGGGEEE.

IAH? Yes, they are big aren't they. They look like flying whales.

[Borderland]

Sure they are, they want to fight. You seriously believe Pelosi / Shumer haven't talked trash about President Trump? I hope there is a recording of today's meeting and it gets released.

BTW, I never said I disagreed with AFG...but how long do we plan to stay there and what does success look like? PS, you can stick that passivist crap where it belongs if that's directed at me. If not, I apologize in advance.

The press wasn't in that meeting but there have been others that were aired. One I remember with Schumer, Pelosi and Trump. Both Schumer and Pelosi were respectful to Trump during that one. Trump has a habit of disrespecting and attacking people personally, it's just part of his DNA.

Just about everyone in Syria is fighting Ayman al-Zawahiri and his religious followers, including the US. He took over when Osama bin Laden was killed. Now we have this guy who wants desperately to attack the US again.


Then history would make a new turn, God willing, in the opposite direction against the empire of the United States and the world's Jewish government Ayman al-Zawahiri

That's the reason we went to AFG after 911 and the reason we had troops in Syria. You can't just leave al-Qaeda to spread in the ME or they end up here.

How long will we be there? Probably until al-Qaeda is put out of business which looks like a very long time given the recent turn of events in Syria.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/middle-east/2019-10-16/isis-already-rising-ashes

[blues]

Yes, they are.

I’m pretty busy at work these days. :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They must have a very liberal allowance for posting online. :rolleyes:

;)

[Borderland]

Oh, I dunno, based on reports and photo's, look like Nancy Pelosi is one who "lost his cool"
Not as many in the GOP as you think.
Syria debacle my ass. It's always a good time to leave in the ME.
All these Fucking Chicken Hawks, from the left and the right, who think we need to leave a standing army in Syria, should go hop on the closest C-141 and go over there and start kicking doors. Show us the depth of their convictions. We have no Congressional mandate to be there anyhow. If Congress feels so strong about committing troops to Syria, let's get it on the official record. Who are we to try and depose Assad? We played that stupid game in Libya with the Muslim Brotherhood, that worked out swell.

Yep, we're sending Troops to Saudi for security purposes, and the Kingdom is footing the bill. That's a win right there, getting paid to help stabilize the region.

Maybe we can become the new Black Hawk Security Contracting services?
Eric Prince for SecDef.!!!!!

129 republicans voted in the house to rebuke Trump's withdrawal. Only 60 GOP holdouts. If my math is correct that's about two thirds of the house republicans that voted to rebuke Trump. Just for the record so we can get some clarity here.;)

[Glenn E. Meyer]

All these Fucking Chicken Hawks, from the left and the right, who think we need to leave a standing army in Syria, should go hop on the closest C-141 and go over there and start kicking doors.

What if they have bone spurs? Is Doc Brown working on a Mr. Fusion C-141?


Yep, we're sending Troops to Saudi for security purposes, and the Kingdom is footing the bill. That's a win right there, getting paid to help stabilize the region.

Didn't work out well for the World Trade Center. Or is the post just satirical?

[GardoneVT]

Didn't work out well for the World Trade Center. Or is the post just satirical?

It’s worked pretty well for Asia. To be sure those nations don’t directly pay us to secure their region, but our access to affordable consumer goods made in Taiwan, S. Korea, Japan and even China is dependent on US Military presence. Without the DoD, those countries would be working to settle VERY old scores, to the detriment of their citizens and ours.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

So you think those countries would have attacked us and had the same motivational structure to do so as Osama's crew? China is so dependent on US military presence that they are building a military that can equal ours in the Pacific region and maintain an outer ring of area denying defenses?

Huh?

[GardoneVT]

So you think those countries would have attacked us and had the same motivational structure to do so as Osama's crew? China is so dependent on US military presence that they are building a military that can equal ours in the Pacific region and maintain an outer ring of area denying defenses?

Huh?

Let’s start from the top. With the US acting as a spoiler, it’s no good to attack their neighbors. Which means the Asian powers can focus on making things besides bombs and bullets. Such as toasters and cell phones. This even benefits China to an extent ; but with them building economic ties overseas they’ll need a force projection capability . Parking a carrier off a coast is a pretty convincing tactic . Thus their naval expansion. China’s ASMs are their anti-Navy strategy.

If we didn’t exist in the region, the area would evolve into an arms race and war pretty fast. If my smartphone is any indication , we don’t need those folks building WMDs.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That's a different scenario then our forces driving Islamic extremists to attack us. We never saw any of the Asian countries having the slightest interest in revenge against our military being there. That is a common thread in the Islamic world. So its humus and ramen.

[TheRoland]

This is really unbelievable. Today, Trump and Pence announced a “Cease Fire” had been reached, that gave the Turks their intended goal in full.

Which was “negotiated” on behalf of the former ally we just stabbed in the back. Who already have said they reject it.

[Chance]

From BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-50091305):


Turkey has agreed to a ceasefire in northern Syria to let Kurdish-led forces withdraw, US Vice-President Mike Pence has announced.

The development followed talks in Ankara between Mr Pence and Turkey's President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

All military operations will be paused for five days, and the US will help facilitate an "orderly withdrawal" of Kurdish-led troops from what Turkey has termed a "safe zone" on the border.

[blues]

http://www.alliednetservices.com/clipart/fez-360.jpg

[Medusa]

So yeah, the letter wasn’t fake news at all, and he did choose to send it.

The letter was binned by Erdogan. As his actions made clear.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/erdogan-threw-trump-letter-in-the-trash-report/

[the Schwartz]

Which was “negotiated” on behalf of the former ally we just stabbed in the back. Who already have said they reject it.

Then they are free to take it or leave it. Let some other nation waste their resources refereeing a conflict between two ethnic groups that have spent the last few centuries attempting to eradicate each other.

[willie]

News flash. President of Turkey has declared a cease fire.

[RJ]

They must have a very liberal allowance for posting online. :rolleyes:

;)

Depends on what time zone I'm in. :cool:

[pooty]

All of you who here who feel sooooo intent on defending 'Kurdish soil' in Rojava go ahead and volunteer for the YPG, last time I checked the only requirements were: don't be too old, too fat, bring one pair of good boots, and even then the first two can be waived if you bring technical skills.

[FNFAN]

Then they are free to take it or leave it. Let some other nation waste their resources refereeing a conflict between two ethnic groups that have spent the last few centuries attempting to eradicate each other.

Yes, perhaps the Congress members who are bitching about this would like to donate a few of their offspring to be used as pawns and placeholders.

[Borderland]

This is really unbelievable. Today, Trump and Pence announced a “Cease Fire” had been reached, that gave the Turks their intended goal in full.

Which was “negotiated” on behalf of the former ally we just stabbed in the back. Who already have said they reject it.

Yep, being played. They're going to kill as many Kurds as they can and maintain a working relationship with Trump. Trump says he negotiated a great deal but Turkey isn't finished with the Kurds. You can pretty much bet on that.

Still some real estate deals to be made in Turkey and plenty of investors there to facilitate that. Trump's business interests there are driving his foreign policy. Follow the money.

Mulvany just said it was a hijack. Damn. What a tool.

The rats are running for the nearest hawser.

[peterb]

https://www.npr.org/2019/10/22/772387023/turkey-russia-reach-deal-to-control-syrian-areas-once-patrolled-by-the-u-s

The leaders of Russia and Turkey agreed Tuesday after more than five hours of talks on how to jointly patrol parts of Syria that until recently were controlled by Kurdish forces.

Russian President Vladimir Putin and President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey signed a 10-point memorandum at the Black Sea resort of Sochi that is set to go into effect at midday Wednesday local time.

Under the deal, Russian military police and Syrian border guards will first facilitate the withdrawal of Syrian Kurdish forces from the Turkish border. Russians and Turks will then jointly patrol the area now occupied by the Turkish military. Russian military police and border guards from Syria will cross the over the Syrian side of the border with Turkey. At that point, the two forces will "facilitate the removal of YPG elements and their weapons," according to the memorandum.

The Kurdish YPG fighters, the key U.S. allies in the fight against ISIS, will have to retreat roughly 20 miles from the Turkish-declared security zone in Northern Syria. The pullback is expected to last about six days, the memorandum said. Once it's completed, Russia and Turkey will jointly patrol that zone.

[Wheeler]

So I got tired of reading all the comments regurgitating the same stuff the news has been saying. Here’s a few things no one has bothered to bring up. If I’m repeating someone my apologies.

The Kurds don’t have a homeland.

Everyone in the area hates the Kurds.

Turkey is in fact a member of NATO. They supported us during Desert Shield, Desert Storm, and the GWOT.

We have binding treaties with Turkey. Let that sink in for a minute before you casually toss out the work “ally.”

Erdogan came into power because the Turks supported us not only during the aforementioned wars, but also because they agreed to support us and our other allies in economic sanctions against Iraq, Iran, and Syria.

Turkey was promised preferential trade concessions by the EU that never happened.

We have personnel and bases in Turkey.

The presence of SF and similar teams in northern Syria was not going to deter the incursion of Turkish forces. Removing them from the area was prudent to protect American lives.

I lived in Turkey. I liked and respected the Turks I knew. This situation isn’t dokey Trump’s fault and it’s disingenuous to think so. This goes all the way back the Bush Senior at the least.

[Half Moon]

The Kurds have been our ally in fighting ISIS. The US government, led by Donald J Trump, convinced the Kurds to withdraw from their defenses on the Turkish border with a promise we would assume responsibility for defending that border. This was intended to de-escalate tensions with Turkey and also free up more bodies to fight ISIS. The US government, led by Donald J Trump, then unilaterally, with no notice, and no consultation decided to immediately pull those tripwire troops from that border security mission. Even if you believe we should have withdrawn, a barest minimum of honor would have seen us give the Kurds enough time to re-man the border we committed to protect. We should flat out be ashamed of the way this was handled.

[AKDoug]

"Permanent" cease fire announced today. I'm pretty convinced we'll never hear the whole story on this. There is no way the mainstream media will give Trump credit for anything. On the flip side, there is no way Trump or his people are going to admit they fucked up. Either way, it's starting to look like just another day in the Middle East.

[JRB]

"Permanent" cease fire announced today. I'm pretty convinced we'll never hear the whole story on this. There is no way the mainstream media will give Trump credit for anything. On the flip side, there is no way Trump or his people are going to admit they fucked up. Either way, it's starting to look like just another day in the Middle East.

Here's a big ass problem with witch hunts against a specific President - we miss the big moves that would have sucked for *any* standing President regardless of who it is. This wasn't a move against President Trump, love him or hate him, this was a move against the US as a whole.

I wish I could say more, but I can say that we've been VERY busy here evaluating all the options, and the current situation in Iraq has made things a lot more interesting than any of us wanted.

But Al-Jazeera's middle east coverage has been pretty good, noticeably better than US-based coverage. Use a VPN to put your PoP anywhere in the Middle East and read those stories in English. Beats the hell out of the coverage from US companies, or US-based coverage of other international companies.

[blues]

Here's a big ass problem with witch hunts against a specific President - we miss the big moves that would have sucked for *any* standing President regardless of who it is. This wasn't a move against President Trump, love him or hate him, this was a move against the US as a whole.

I wish I could say more, but I can say that we've been VERY busy here evaluating all the options, and the current situation in Iraq has made things a lot more interesting than any of us wanted.

But Al-Jazeera's middle east coverage has been pretty good, noticeably better than US-based coverage. Use a VPN to put your PoP anywhere in the Middle East and read those stories in English. Beats the hell out of the coverage from US companies, or US-based coverage of other international companies.

QFT.

[Wondering Beard]

The ME situation has always been complicated and confusing. The following article tries to explain a few things:https://thefederalist.com/2019/10/24/10-questions-to-ask-about-trumps-removal-of-troops-from-syria/?utm_source=The+Federalist+List&utm_campaign=0c108dba39-RSS_The_Federalist_Daily_Updates_w_Transom&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_cfcb868ceb-0c108dba39-81168121. Sure, it's from a particular point of view, but it contains good info nonetheless.

And to add to the confusion (https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-syria-militias-us-cia-islamic-state-20160326-story.html).

[JRB]

The ME situation has always been complicated and confusing. The following article tries to explain a few things:https://thefederalist.com/2019/10/24/10-questions-to-ask-about-trumps-removal-of-troops-from-syria/?utm_source=The+Federalist+List&utm_campaign=0c108dba39-RSS_The_Federalist_Daily_Updates_w_Transom&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_cfcb868ceb-0c108dba39-81168121. Sure, it's from a particular point of view, but it contains good info nonetheless.

And to add to the confusion (https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-syria-militias-us-cia-islamic-state-20160326-story.html).

The #4 point in that Federalist article is particularly accurate and germane.

It's worth noting that the Chicago Tribune article is from 2016... and not a lot of that has changed.