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View Full Version : Re-engaging that stubborn student with a surprise ending



Al T.
04-17-2012, 09:14 AM
First, thank you all very much, P-F.com members and TLG. The advice given in the original thread was spot on. Original thread:

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1589-Working-with-a-stubborn-student-question

The student and I went our separate ways after the last session, both feeling like little progress was made. He contacted me for another range session (I do not charge anything) after he went shooting with some friends and shot the most classic "comet" pattern you've ever seen. I mean, he shot probably 30ish rounds and the tail of the "comet" was pointing almost directly at the 7:30 position. He had emailed me a picture of the target, so diagnosis was simple.

We agreed upon a date/time to link up and I started my planning process to confirm my diagnosis and isolate the problem. I'm not going into the boring details, but I wanted to have a game plan from the start and this was different from my usual "Intro to handguns" classes.

What I settled on was using a variation of one of TLGs drills, essentially using a 9 inch paper plate modified with HeadHnter6's CD paint plan for the target. Distance was 7 yards, start was from the ready with the shooter firing 5 shots AFAP. Accuracy standards were 100 %, time being recorded for evaluation and (hopefully) progression.

(Slight detour. Reading the AARs here and doing some research into adult learning theory, I noted that having a baseline for the shooter allows both the instructor and student to track progression (or lack there of).)

I took my S&W M&P .45 for us to have our initial evaluations on a shared platform and a relatively harder recoiling pistol. More about that, later.

His first 100% run was at 5.23 seconds. Mine was considerably faster, so I had my edge going forward. But a funny thing happened. He had a couple of trigger jerks throwing his shots off the paper plate, but settled right down and IIRC, his second run was his 100% run. We switched up targets and firearms. I had him do some ball and dummy drills with my 617 and he did OK. Certainly not what I thought he would do as I had him firing DA only with the .22. I mentioned that perhaps the lack of recoil was helping. He remarked that his carry gun (compact .40) had much more recoil than my .45.

Full stop. Holy cow. No way.

We set the original drill back up and I shot the COF with his handgun. I'm not going to mention brand, but it's one I have little experience with and I don't do a lot of .40 shooting either. But still, it's a 10mm Short, so how could it kick more?

I was wrong.

That was one of the most irritating handguns I have ever fired. He wasn't milking his grip as I had first thought, the darn pistol was the challenge. Due to the short grip and "torquey" recoil, the grip was getting pulled through my palm. I have a hard grip and fairly strong hands. Still, it was a challenge for me to stay under 3 seconds. I did have to regain my grip after a couple of rounds. My observation and initial conclusion was flawed as I thought he was adjusting his grip for every shot. What I had concluded was fundamentally wrong. He wasn't adjusting, he was re-gaining his grip.

OK then. Time to change up the game plan.

To make a long story short, we adjusted some of his stance so that he put more grip pressure on the pistol and his control was markedly better. Running that quick and simple drill (but not often) allowed us to generate data that what I was teaching was working. Stole that idea right from TLG. :D

To sum up, IMHO, this was a bit of an anomaly. The equipment was the issue, which is fairly counter to my experience. My initial mistake, both sessions, was not actually evaluating his firearm & ammo, even though I'd never fired that model. I also confused cause and effect. Lesson learned.

Good side of the story (we all love a happy ending) was that the student progressed and when he fired my 9mm compact, he shot considerably better. Like shoes or hats, getting the size right is fairly important. Having a standard to track progress really let this student integrate and participate in his training. I think that's important.

John Hearne
04-17-2012, 09:57 PM
40's are an interesting caliber. The chamber pressures associated with the round make the recoil a distinctly different experience for the shooter. My take is that recoil is compressed into a shorter time frame so it is more noticeable. I've shot a lot of 45 and vastly prefer the overall higher level of recoil spread out over a longer time period.

IIRC, Bill Rogers has observed that the easiest pistols to shoot are 9mm's. Next are 45's. Bringing up the rear are 40 & 357's.

GJM
04-17-2012, 10:18 PM
IIRC, Bill Rogers has observed that the easiest pistols to shoot are 9mm's. Next are 45's. Bringing up the rear are 40 & 357's.

Further, he stated that a three letter federal agency had to dumb down their academy score requirements to get people thru, after adopting the .40. He said, if they want to issue the .40, at least use the 9 when doing basic training. Bill commented that his hands were very sore after demoing for that agency daily for two weeks with the .40, and he was icing both hands each night.

Many years ago, when I was an IPSC shooter using a 1911, I carried a Glock 23. When I shot the G23 for proficiency, I noted that while I started off shooting the G23 well, my performance started going down hill after 100 rounds or so. At the time, I attributed it to the Glock trigger, but in retrospect, it was most likely the over pressure (Rogers speak for concussion) of the .40 cartridge.

jmjames
04-18-2012, 12:13 AM
I've had similar experiences with .40. At first, I thought it was just me or my gun, then I tried the same in 9mm. The final realization was simply putting 1 mag through a USP Compact .40, that was a very unpleasant experience. A experience with a small Kahr (don't remember the model) also in .40 further reinforced that.

J.Ja

MD7305
04-18-2012, 01:53 AM
I was previously shooting a Glock 23 and took it through AFHF last year. At the end of class Todd did a drill where you would shoot your own handgun and then shoot a pistol belonging to another student. I had the only .40 in the class and it was fun to watch the other guys shoot it after shooting a 9mm Glock or M&P all weekend.

I do think that a pistol in .40 is more difficult to shoot vs. the same pistol in 9mm, Glock 23 vs. Glock 19 for example. I find that over large round count range sessions my hands shake. I have to really pace myself because it can get to a point that it ruins a range session and I have to pack up and leave. I never had that issue when I shot 9mm primarily. I really only shoot .40 to stay consistent with my agency's issued gear.

ToddG
04-18-2012, 06:35 AM
FWIW, in my experience the 9mm is easiest and least punishing. The .45 and 357 SIG tie for second, and the .40 (using full power ammo) comes in well below them. The 10mm (full power) and .45 GAP are the worst in terms of controllability at speed.

The issue with the .40 S&W is that it's very high pressure (same as SAAMI 9mm) but pushing a much heavier bullet. This results in a lot of torque, so the recoil has more twist to it than push. The gun feels like it's trying to squirm out of your hands. It's certainly controllable if you do your part, but it takes a lot more effort to do it well and, as mentioned above, can become tiring.

CCT125US
04-18-2012, 07:57 AM
Before I was using a P30, I put around 5K through a sub compact .40 I learned a lot about recoil managment and what I personally needed to do in order to shoot well with it. I am glad I had that experience because it made me a better shooter. But I have moved on from the .40

MDS
04-18-2012, 08:28 AM
Before I was using a P30, I put around 5K through a sub compact .40 I learned a lot about recoil managment and what I personally needed to do in order to shoot well with it. I am glad I had that experience because it made me a better shooter. But I have moved on from the .40

I shoot and carry 9 mm glock, and I have a 617 for trigger control practice. I wonder if it would be worth getting a 40 for recoil management practice?

Al T.
04-18-2012, 09:05 AM
I shoot and carry 9 mm glock

Just dip your 9mm in axle grease. :D That's about what that sub-compact felt like.

BTW, if we hadn't introduced a speed drill into the session, might have missed the "squirm out of your hand" issue.

Ga Shooter
04-18-2012, 11:21 AM
Just dip your 9mm in axle grease. :D That's about what that sub-compact felt like.

LMAO

That is funny right there.

CCT125US
04-18-2012, 11:35 AM
I shoot and carry 9 mm glock, and I have a 617 for trigger control practice. I wonder if it would be worth getting a 40 for recoil management practice?

Since you asked for my opinion I would say no. My reason back then for picking up the .40 was I wanted a carry gun that I could also practice with. This was durring the great ammo shortage of (insert year) and 9mm was impossible to find and my LGS had skids of .40 sitting around. My primer supply was dwindling down and I could forecast running out in several weeks. I picked up the .40 to fill a need at that time in my life based upon my situation. The upside was that I could continue to shoot (granted it was a less than ideal setup IMO) and I had to learn better recoil management based on my physical size. If I had a choice I would have gone a different route but I did not. I found the silver lining in the cloud of my experience. Another upside is that I have another option if that situation should happen again. But I am more inclined to stick with one gun if given a chance.

matman
04-18-2012, 12:16 PM
I too started on a Glock 21 and then switched to a 23. I put well over 3k through each in the beginning, but the cost was killing me! I wanted to train more for less, so I went to all 9mms (still own the .40 barrel for the 23, and the 21 I still shoot occassionally). I was in the Glock instructor clad and had the opportunity to shoot some LEOs .40s there and honestly didn't see that big of a difference. I could shoot it faster sure to the cyclic rate being more positive then my 9mm. But I felt no major differences. Going from one to the next. I have seen them however very pronounced amongst other shooters so I do believe they exist. I try to force new shooters to shoot my or their 9mms until they have a good grip on the fundamentals. Then I slowly introduce them back to other calibers. Seems to help once they can see how to transition those fundamentals back to .40 or .45. I do shoot the .40/.45 from time to time to instill the fact that fundamentals ARE fundamentals no matter what the caliber or gun model your shooting. Obviously a Kahr .40 caliber will require more help then a .40 Glock 35 to drive at a higher speed... But trigger press and sight alignment are the basis for everything.

jmjames
04-18-2012, 12:32 PM
40's are an interesting caliber. The chamber pressures associated with the round make the recoil a distinctly different experience for the shooter. My take is that recoil is compressed into a shorter time frame so it is more noticeable. I've shot a lot of 45 and vastly prefer the overall higher level of recoil spread out over a longer time period.

IIRC, Bill Rogers has observed that the easiest pistols to shoot are 9mm's. Next are 45's. Bringing up the rear are 40 & 357's.

Mods, feel free to fork as needed...

I was trying to find a video showing what the pattern of a TLR-1 was, and I found this video from Streamlight:
http://www.streamlight.com/documents/videos/?aid=541c6e73-4143-4912-9086-8254dbdf3fe2&keepThis=true&TB_iframe=true&height=530&width=522

In it, they happen to mention that in their testing, .357 SIG was the fastest recoil they've encountered, on *anything* (including shotguns and rifles). I thought that was an interesting data point.

J.Ja

MDS
04-18-2012, 03:01 PM
Just dip your 9mm in axle grease. :D That's about what that sub-compact felt like.

BTW, if we hadn't introduced a speed drill into the session, might have missed the "squirm out of your hand" issue.

Hah! That's not a bad idea. The image in my head involves a kiddie pool full of baby oil and a Bill Drill competition... not sure how the Safety Board would feel about that, though. ;)

In all seriousness, I think I'll take my USPc45 on my next range trip. I'll do a few Bill Drills with my G19, then a few with the USPc45, then see if I do any better with the G19. Fun!