What...the...

[RevolverRob]

I'm not even going to post this in the Shotgun Forum, because I don't want anyone to misconstrue this as actual valuable information...The fun starts at 6:54 or thereabouts.

No your eyes don't deceive you...that's a "spit reload". Don't watch the whole video...your brain will lock up. Later he teaches a whole class how to do a bayonet drive with the muzzle, a buttstroke uppercut, and then spit shells into the chamber...


https://youtu.be/O62TAcfguy0?t=406

[Caballoflaco]

Here’s a few screen shots if you don’t want to click on the video.

43267 instructor getting muzzled by student
43268 student muzzling other students
43269 Spit!
43270 Spit it in the hole!


ETA: Also, this is the moment when I realize that video was posted in 2013 and I feel an internet shame for replying, except to make a comment about it being from 2013.

[Joe in PNG]

"Hey, dude- I need you stand where I can muzzle you while I hit this object hard with the butt stock. What can possibly go wrong?"

[snow white]

so half way through watching that video I realized my nose started to run. looking at the tissue after wiping my nose, I realized it was in fact my brain liquifying in my skull and leaking out of my face from the sheer stupidity.

[Ed L]

I wonder about the self awareness of some people. I would not want to be on video putting rounds in my mouth.

Someone is going to try that with snapcaps on an autoloader and hit the wrong thing and the bolt will close on their lips or tongue.

What do they call that, the Linda Lovelace/Monica Lewinski load?

Seriously, that is some Borat shit--something stupid that Sasha Baron Cohen's Borat character would try to get people to do so they look silly on camera. He would pretend to be an ex-Spetznaz or Israeli commando and tell them that it was a technique that they taught.

[Joe in PNG]

Hang on- is that the instructor himself standing in the "Boom-oops!" area of the Whack-a-mole drill?

[TheNewbie]

Is this real? Is this a joke?


I am seriously asking. I watched 15 seconds, including the spit the shell in the chamber, and I don't know.

[Hambo]

Someone is going to try that with snapcaps on an autoloader and hit the wrong thing and the bolt will close on their lips or tongue.

Play stupid games, get your lips caught in your firearm.

[mtnbkr]

Looks like I wasted money taking shotgun classes with FPF and Justified Defensive Concepts. :mad:

:D:D:D

Just kidding, it looks like I avoided major derp and "spit" reloads instead.

Chris

[Hambo]

Looks like I wasted money taking shotgun classes with FPF and Justified Defensive Concepts. :mad:

:D:D:D

Just kidding, it looks like I avoided major derp and having my lips surgically removed from my ejection port.

Chris

FIFY, bro.

[JodyH]

I've seen enough of this kind of stuff that I no longer tell people "You should get some training."
I now tell them "You should get some training from {insert respected trainer name here}".

[awp_101]

ETA: Also, this is the moment when I realize that video was posted in 2013 and I feel an internet shame for replying, except to make a comment about it being from 2013.

2013 or 1913, heck even it was just 13 (AD or BC take your pick) it’s just stupid.

[SouthNarc]

Resumes don't always preclude derp.


Frank McRae is the former head of the US Army Special Forces Advanced Reconnaissance Target Analysis and Exploitation Techniques Course (SFARTAETC) at Ft. Bragg N.C. He started his military career in the 1st Ranger Bn as an 11B infantryman. He served in the 1st Special Forces Group (ABN) Okinawa Japan, in Cco 1st Bn. 1st SFG(A) (C-1-1) where he was an assault team leader for F team,Troop 1 in the Combatant Commanders In-extremis Force (CIF) conducting operations in Operation Enduring Freedom, advising, training and standing up the Light Reaction Company of the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP). He was then assigned as an Instructor to the SFARTAETC at the Special Warfare Center and School in Ft. Bragg NC, was promoted and became the NCOIC of the course and awarded for having the highest graduation rate for the course in its twenty year history. He also served as a Troop SGM Troop 1 and Team SGT ODA-354 in B co 2nd Bn 3rd SFG(A) CIF in IRAQ as an Iraqi Counter-Terrorism Force (ICTF) Company SGM advisor and combat leader on many missions in Iraq and also attended the Israeli Counter-Terrorism Course as an exchange instructor.

[WobblyPossum]

I haven’t watched this video and don’t plan to. I think I’ve got a handle on what I’d see based on these comments. I’ll stick with Tom Givens, Tim Chandler, Darryl Bolke, Rob Haught, Steve Fisher or Chris Fry for my shotgun training needs. If all of those guys suddenly retire at the same time, I’d rather try and figure things out by myself than attend the clown show in the video.

[Rex G]

Play stupid games, get your lips caught in your firearm.

Garand Lip?

[runcible]

I was surprised at his association with the Dog Brothers, and that even while having some wrestling background that he poo-pooed combat sports in favor of “mindset” in some of his writing.

[TheNewbie]

Resumes don't always preclude derp.


Frank McRae is the former head of the US Army Special Forces Advanced Reconnaissance Target Analysis and Exploitation Techniques Course (SFARTAETC) at Ft. Bragg N.C. He started his military career in the 1st Ranger Bn as an 11B infantryman. He served in the 1st Special Forces Group (ABN) Okinawa Japan, in Cco 1st Bn. 1st SFG(A) (C-1-1) where he was an assault team leader for F team,Troop 1 in the Combatant Commanders In-extremis Force (CIF) conducting operations in Operation Enduring Freedom, advising, training and standing up the Light Reaction Company of the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP). He was then assigned as an Instructor to the SFARTAETC at the Special Warfare Center and School in Ft. Bragg NC, was promoted and became the NCOIC of the course and awarded for having the highest graduation rate for the course in its twenty year history. He also served as a Troop SGM Troop 1 and Team SGT ODA-354 in B co 2nd Bn 3rd SFG(A) CIF in IRAQ as an Iraqi Counter-Terrorism Force (ICTF) Company SGM advisor and combat leader on many missions in Iraq and also attended the Israeli Counter-Terrorism Course as an exchange instructor.

This guy was Army SF?

[serialsolver]

Garand Lip?

Benelli lip, 1187 lip,,,ect...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SouthNarc]

This guy was Army SF?

Career SF and ran the SFARTAETC course.

[JodyH]

was promoted and became the NCOIC of the course and awarded for having the highest graduation rate for the course in its twenty year history

When it comes to training courses and material, really high graduation rates usually means everything is tailored to the lowest common denominator.
That's been my experience anyway.
No child left behind...

[CWM11B]

He's retired (or got out after a few tours) SF from a way back. His school has been around a long time. I've driven by, but never planned on attending, as I've heard similar to what is in this thread. The spit thing is hilarious. No explanation given as to the why/when/how you get a shell in your mouth. Whatever. In addition to the aforementioned, he also needs to refresh on NC self defense law or STFU.

[Lon]

43282

You can’t post click bait like that and then tell us not to watch it. I watched the first few minutes and I’m dumber for having done so.

[CWM11B]

The bash 'em up drills did take me back to about 1983 and the RBFT course.

[RevolverRob]

No explanation given as to the why/when/how you get a shell in your mouth.

RIGHT?

He plucks it out of the side saddle with his hand and puts it in his mouth. If the shell is in your fucking hand, keep it in your fucking hand. :rolleyes:

[NEPAKevin]

If you click the "show more" below the video, you will see that you were warned. (Emphasis added)
TWANGnBANG? Where is the tactical shooting school name generator when you need it?



TWANGnBANG
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[TGS]

This guy was Army SF?

And not just SF, but CIF, which are the gunslingers of SF. Direct Action is their meat'n'potatoes.

________________________

Something for everyone to consider:

From a military background, I'm not terribly surprised to see the use of real weapons instead of dummies in training like this. Can it be done better? Sure, I don't see any reason an open enrollment course needs to have people flagging each other, nor would I partake in such practices any longer. With that out of the way, clearing your weapon and doing buddy checks (line-outs) and then pointing them at each other is pretty standard in the military. I wouldn't look at him as if he's a complete retard like some of you guys are, even if there's a better way of doing things. I do think it behooves him to "get with the program" as things have advanced and there are good options available.

The weapon strikes were pretty basic techniques that are taught in the military...I don't necessarily see a problem with teaching them, particularly for a low capacity, slow-to-reload close quarters weapon. I'm slow to criticize what limited amount of UOF reference was in the video, as all we got was a snippet. It sounded like there may have been something incorrect (for instance, hitting a guy in the head with a hard object being a good idea if you can't articulate the need for lethal force), however the reason I'm hesitant is because he could have given a more in-depth spiel off camera and we're simply getting a bad idea of what he's actually teaching.

Keep in mind that SouthNarc even has parts of his course strictly off-camera, specifically because of "mouth-breathing self-anointed experts on the internet" (something to that effect) that would likely misinterpret what is going on and criticize him for being unsafe. I'm not comparing Craig's curriculum and teaching methods to this guy, but I'm just reminding everyone that it's a very real concern of filming classes even when you're doing things/saying things that are sound.

The Monica Lewinski reload was a little weird, but whatever, it's just a weird gimmick and not patently unsafe. IDK.....maybe there were some SF dudes who had gone native and got hit while they were halfway through their visit at a whorehouse, and some Green Beret grabbed his shotgun in the days prior to side saddles and put a spare round in his mouth because he was naked and 1 reload is better than zero. Gimmicky to teach, sure.

In the end, I'm just not seeing this guy as anywhere in the same category as that Lucien Black guy, or those Omni-Corps looking dudes doing the "Tactical Riverdance" with kubotans and guns.

/mythoughts.

[CWM11B]

I dont think he's a retard, and I'm sure he's good at a bunch of stuff. His empty gun loads were pretty standard. The spit reload was stupid, period. On the UOF, his comment about breaking in and deadly force in NC was flat out wrong. Doesn't matter that it was only one sentence, or that he was a real deal SF gunfighter. Based on what I saw, my training dollars would go elsewhere. As always, folks are free to choose how and with whom they train.

[Ed L]

Resumes don't always preclude derp.


Frank McRae is the former head of the US Army Special Forces Advanced Reconnaissance Target Analysis and Exploitation Techniques Course (SFARTAETC) at Ft. Bragg N.C. He started his military career in the 1st Ranger Bn as an 11B infantryman. He served in the 1st Special Forces Group (ABN) Okinawa Japan, in Cco 1st Bn. 1st SFG(A) (C-1-1) where he was an assault team leader for F team,Troop 1 in the Combatant Commanders In-extremis Force (CIF) conducting operations in Operation Enduring Freedom, advising, training and standing up the Light Reaction Company of the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP). He was then assigned as an Instructor to the SFARTAETC at the Special Warfare Center and School in Ft. Bragg NC, was promoted and became the NCOIC of the course and awarded for having the highest graduation rate for the course in its twenty year history. He also served as a Troop SGM Troop 1 and Team SGT ODA-354 in B co 2nd Bn 3rd SFG(A) CIF in IRAQ as an Iraqi Counter-Terrorism Force (ICTF) Company SGM advisor and combat leader on many missions in Iraq and also attended the Israeli Counter-Terrorism Course as an exchange instructor.

Wow, I didn't even watch the whole video or look into who the instructor was. I have major respect for him and his ability to do accomplish all of that. Maybe the shell in the mouth reload is something so cutting edge that it hasn't been shared outside of the SF Community. Maybe in 20 years people into firearms training will be looking back and laughing at us for not willing to reload shotguns with a round from our mouth.

But to me, it looks problematic. As demonstrated, this is a reload that you conduct with an empty gun when you need to feed the chamber and get the gun back into action and seems like a much more awkward way to reload a shotgun that is more prone to having issues than reloading with your hand.


It is much easier to drop the shell on the ground or not have it go into the loading port when doing it with your mouth rather than when doing it with your hand. The instructor even said that you will not get it 100%.

You could run the risk of hitting a bolt release mechanism with your hand or some other way while carrying out that reload and having the closing bolt smack you in the lips or catch your tongue.

Finally if it is done under dynamic circumstances you could accidentally bump the shell into your mouth with part of the shotgun while trying to load it. That is going to be a gagging showstopper until you reflexively spit it out, and will take you out of the fight until you straighten out this situation. This would be a very bad thing to happen if you are in a life and death situation where you have to get a round into your empty shotgun to stop an attacker.


Again, I greatly respect the instructor's service and accomplishments. It is far beyond anything that I have done or could have done. It would be like comparing a noble prize winning chemist to myself--someone who could not make it through high school chemistry.

However, in the case with the chamber reload technique from the mouth, I think that it is highly problematic method.ed. For all I know it may be a cutting edge SF technique and me not recognizing it makes me tactically clueless.

[TheNewbie]

Is he the same guy at the 2:20 mark (and thumbnail) in this video? I know the title says Delta, but it's youtube.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRRMFVZXBls

[BN]

I didn't watch the video.

However, I did win a man vs man shotgun shootoff one time back in the late 1980's or early 90's using the spit reload. ;) Two shooters, each with 5 Pepper Poppers to knock down. You could only load 4 rounds in your shotgun at the start. I surreptitiously placed my reload in my mouth and spit reloaded after knocking down the first 4 Poppers. Everybody else was going to their belt for their reload. I would probably get killed in the streets using that for real but I put the money in my pocket. LOL I was at the clubhouse after that and over heard 2 kids talking. One asked the other if his dad won the shotgun shoot. He said, Nope, some old guy beat him. ;) I used to be pretty tricky with my 1100.

[AKDoug]

was promoted and became the NCOIC of the course and awarded for having the highest graduation rate for the course in its twenty year history

When it comes to training courses and material, really high graduation rates usually means everything is tailored to the lowest common denominator.
That's been my experience anyway.
No child left behind...

Yeah, I instantly thought the same thing. When our local school district said they were aiming for a 95% graduation rate, I immediately asked if they were lowering the standards.

[UNM1136]

Re: Lewinski reload. I remember reading somewhere in days gone by guys using side by side shotguns (I always preferred O/U and desperately wanted a Road Warrior leg rig for a cut down O/U) used to put two shells in their teeth, bases first, to be ready for a speed reload, since the big gun only had two rounds on board, and the shotgun cartridges may have been waxed paper... BUT the mouth held the rounds, the hand reloaded two at once...

Also his love of the Mossberg.... I have used one all my career. 21+ years. My cop/shooting mentor sold me his for a song when I was a wee patrolman with only a couple of years on...my current agency initially issued 1187s with ST ghost ring sights with tritium. Some genius decided we could get 2 for 1 Mossys with bead sights for the Remmy's...so now a decade and a half later, my agency is issuing M4-2000s for their SBR Colt 14.5 inch semi autos, but the guys issued shotguns are carrying 590s with bead sights.

I would rather have an 870, or even better a 1301, but I am emotionally attached to my 590A1...My mentor sold it to me when we were making less than $12/hr...I shot the State Shotgun Instructor course wrong handed with it due to an injury...I have had it customized (lengthened forcing cone, tritium ghost rings, interchangeable chokes, since at the time it was my only shotgun, and I like to hunt), and now I have a teaching cred for shotgun breaching, which I used my 590 `cause it was what I had.

pat