Elbow pain and gun choice

[GJM]

My wife started competing in USPSA in May 2018, using a Glock 34. She was very familiar with the Glock, having carried one for twenty five years. She shot the G34 through June 2019, and had significant shooter’s elbow pain the entire time she shot the Glock. Her elbow pain was constant, and every week she would have to taper down her shooting in the latter half of the week, so as to be able to shoot matches in the weekend.

In July 2019, she switched to the X5 320, and shortly thereafter to the 320 X5 Legion. For those not familiar, the Legion has a Tungsten frame, and her pistol weighs 44.5 ounces with an empty magazine. Almost immediately after making the switch, her elbows started improving, and for the last month plus she has had no elbow pain.

Our theory is that she had to grip the lightweight polymer frame more, especially side to side, to control recoil. Whatever it is, it has made a major contribution to her quality of life.

[breakingtime91]

I have arthritis at age 28 because an auto immune disease. Shooting a steel frame 9mm 1911 is heaven compared to a glock.

[David S.]

You guys might want to contact Chad Reilly.

I haven't struggled with this issue so I don't know, but apparently he's helped a bunch of folks, including Robbie Leatham, IIRC.

Firearms Nation Podcast: Chad Reilly (https://firearmsnation.com/chad-reilly-no-more-tennis-elbow/)

I've heard interviews with him on Steve Anderson's podcast too

[45dotACP]

Psoriatic arthritis runs in my family. I'm also 28 years old and a Glock 19 is downright unpleasant for me to shoot because the way it interfaces with the web of my hand, where my dad describes getting his worst pains. He ultimately wound up carrying a M&P shield because the single stack design meshes well with his hands.

My 1911s regardless of caliber are more pleasant. 9mm is considerably easier. A M&P9 FS works, as does a Beretta 92, hell even a Ruger LCP sometimes feels more fun, but I have become a big believer in the 9mm 1911.

As for elbow tendonitis...yeah anything that doesn't require as hard of a grip will lessen the pain and my other thought is that a Glock slide cycles very quickly compared to a larger 320 slide or a 1911 slide, which doesn't snap back and forth as fast.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[GJM]

You guys might want to contact Chad Reilly.

I haven't struggled with this issue so I don't know, but apparently he's helped a bunch of folks, including Robbie Leatham, IIRC.

Firearms Nation Podcast: Chad Reilly (https://firearmsnation.com/chad-reilly-no-more-tennis-elbow/)

I've heard interviews with him on Steve Anderson's podcast too

I have been aware of Chad and his exercises for years, and my wife and I do his exercises as part of our regular weight program. The switch from a light to a heavy gun is what fixed my wife's elbows. We were concerned the heavier gun might make her pain worse, when she first switched, so this development was unexpected.

[Clobbersaurus]

Playing devils advocate here, I wonder if the slightly different grip surface and angle may have something to do with it as well. I don’t find the recoil on polymer guns to be as sharp as steel framed guns and I actually prefer it, though to control the recoil I have to apply much more grip pressure. If your wife is having to muscle the Sig much less that may also play a role in her decreased pain.

I get to put a few mags through a Legion this weekend. I’m looking forward to it seeing how it tracks under recoil.

[BigT]

I've just experienced the opposite. After shooting Glocks with dots primarily for the last year I've just started shooting a 9mm Colt Competition this week. And the shooters elbow I've been dealing with the last couple months just got worse. My theory is its related the the grester weight of the gun during the draw.

[fixer]

My elbow pain just exploded through the damn roof. Lifting a coffee cup is excruciating.

I know mine is derived from excessive shoveling and picking stickers...various yard work activities. However years of shooting hasn't helped either.

For me the entire draw stroke, especially the first vertical portion, is terribly painful. Adding weight makes it worse.

[psalms144.1]

I've been fighting persistent left elbow pain since April. I've reached the point where just closing my left hand is painful. Gripping my Glock while shooting hurts like a sonofabitch, but I don't notice it during recoil.

Of course, I've been wanting to get back into the 1911 game for a while, and this sounds like a PERFECT excuse to do so...

[David S.]

I'm glad to hear that she's finding some relief.

**I am not a medical professional and I haven't experienced this particular problem**

I also think it's worth looking into the following book. My wife has found nearly immediate short term relief from migraines using the techniques in this book. After several months of treating symptoms, the frequency of migraine flair-up has reduced to one or two relatively mild episodes per year, which are quickly resolved.

If interested I can post or email pics of applicable pages.

Trigger Point Therapy Workbook: Your Self Treatment Guide for Pain Relief. (https://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point-Therapy-Workbook-Self-Treatment/dp/1608824942/)

[Doc_Glock]

I don’t find the recoil on polymer guns to be as sharp as steel framed guns and I actually prefer it, though to control the recoil I have to apply much more grip pressure.


This. I have found 9mm 1911s and Beretta 92s honestly a little harsh despite their weight. The flex of a polymer seems to take the edge off for me.

[Doc_Glock]

I also find the varied responses in this thread interesting professionally.

The general consensus from studies is that lateral epicondylitis is universal, self limited, and that there is no treatment (stretches, injection, surgery) better than placebo. It gets better on its own over 12-24 months.

All that is still a matter of intense debate amongst upper extremity surgeons who swear this or that treatment works best for their patients of themselves. They just don’t have any good science to support their preference.

I am going to start prescribing Tungsten firearms for my patients who shoot.

[GJM]

Kidding aside, I wonder whether the cause of the pain is lifting a relatively heavy item, or the gripping and response to recoil.

If it is lifting, it seems like a lighter pistol would help, and if it is from gripping and recoil, the heavier gun would help. And, I have no idea whether the Legion frame gives you the benefits of polymer and weight of a steel pistol, or neither.

[Duces Tecum]

I'm glad to hear that she's finding some relief.

**I am not a medical professional and I haven't experienced this particular problem**

I also think it's worth looking into the following book. My wife has found nearly immediate short term relief from migraines using the techniques in this book. After several months of treating symptoms, the frequency of migraine flair-up has reduced to one or two relatively mild episodes per year, which are quickly resolved.

If interested I can post or email pics of applicable pages.

Trigger Point Therapy Workbook: Your Self Treatment Guide for Pain Relief. (https://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point-Therapy-Workbook-Self-Treatment/dp/1608824942/)


Dave, I'd be interested in reading those pages. My wife has debilitating migraines a couple of times a month. We've tried almost everything, but to no avail. Thank you for offering the pics.

[Wondering Beard]

Our theory is that she had to grip the lightweight polymer frame more, especially side to side, to control recoil. Whatever it is, it has made a major contribution to her quality of life.

I wonder if more back to front pressure and less side to side pressure would have an effect.

[spinmove_]

I’ve generally had better luck and experiences shooting metal framed guns than I have polymer framed guns. With Glocks in particular I feel more snap and transfer of recoil energy through my hands. I generally have to grip them harder and as a result my hands typically will feel it more from shooting them. Contrast that with a Beretta 92 or P229 that I don’t have to grip as hard and the amount of felt recoil is generally reduced.

In order of how much vibration and recoil I feel in my hands in from most to least.

Glocks >>> Other Polymer pistols >> Aluminum framed pistols > Steel framed pistols

Glock’s polymer is great from a weight savings standpoint. It’s kinda the least good from a pure shooting aspect.

[Zincwarrior]

Elbow pain is a problem. I have to use a Tens unit once or twice a week. Sometimes it hurts so much its hard to hold with that arm.

[David S.]

Dave, I'd be interested in reading those pages. My wife has debilitating migraines a couple of times a month. We've tried almost everything, but to no avail. Thank you for offering the pics.

PM me your email address and I’ll get that to you in the next day or two

[Clusterfrack]

I have less shooters elbow since switching from Sig 320s to CZ Shadow2s three years ago. But since then, I’ve also built grip strength, and improved my recoil management a lot. I am significantly more relaxed when shooting as well.

But I do think you need to lock wrist tendons more with a lighter gun, especially on the support side. When I do a long set of drills with a P-07, my support side forearm is sore.

[JRV]

Personal experience, take it for what it's worth...

Grip angle and operating mechanism have a lot to do with my level of comfort in sustained shooting activities. Much more than polymer versus metal. Neutral grip angles and hammer-fired operating mechanisms give me much more consistent comfort.

I find that I have to raise my elbows laterally when shooting Glocks... not to control recoil, however, but to keep the front sight indexed properly.

A lot of dumb decisions over the past 12 years means this position, while completely doable, aggravates pain in my wrists and elbows. Additionally, because I cannot really relax while shooting, I find that my front sight tracking is less consistent. If I flex too much or too little, I leave the goldilocks zone of pressure and end up with a front sight that needs microcorrections on each shot. I have to be very mindful while shooting Glocks or else I end up in an unnaturally hunched posture.

Shooting hammer-fired guns of comparable weight and with slightly more vertical grip angles allows me to shoot while relaxed, which means my sight tracking and timing are not dependent in active engagement of delts or tris. I can focus on consistent grip strength and eye-trigger coordination without excessive muscle engagement.

With a Commander-length lightweight 1911 (old version with the lightened slide), I get a front sight that returns to my original POA as well as a much slower, softer recoil cycle compared to the Glock (16# recoil spring and 23# mainspring decelerating a lightened slide versus 17# recoil spring and 5.5# striker spring decelerating a heavier slide). Even a steel-framed 10mm (22# recoil spring, 25# mainspring) is less aggravating to shoot long-term than the Glock 19.

[psalms144.1]

Kidding aside, I wonder whether the cause of the pain is lifting a relatively heavy item, or the gripping and response to recoil.

If it is lifting, it seems like a lighter pistol would help, and if it is from gripping and recoil, the heavier gun would help. And, I have no idea whether the Legion frame gives you the benefits of polymer and weight of a steel pistol, or neither.George - I can tell you from my experience, gripping is more painful to my elbow than lifting or holding. If I grab a moderately heavy object in my (currently) uninjured hand, and transfer it to the palm of my injured side, I can hold it up with no pain. If I grip tightly with my injured side, even making a fist, I get a pretty good zap in the elbow.

The OT guy I've been seeing says to keep my elbow close to my side, and only lift/hold stuff with my palm up.

[MGW]

I forgot about this thread. Glad it came back up. I had pretty severe tendonitis in my left elbow a couple of years ago. Mine is on the inside of the elbow and in the bicep tendon. I tried stretching and trigger point work but that only gave me mild relief. I was shooting either a 34 or 17 at the time I don't remember which. I switched to a 5" 1911 in 45 around a year ago. The tendonitis went away. I didn't think anything about it. I thought the treatment I had been trying finally kicked in.

Three weeks ago I decided to put the 1911 down and go back to Glocks full time. Late last week I noticed the tendonitis was back. I haven't slept well the last few nights because if I move my arm the wrong way it wakes me up.

I've done very little live fire in the last three weeks. Maybe 750 rounds total. A decent amount of dryfire but not really any more than usual. I don't know if it's a coincidence or not. It has me really looking at 9mm steel guns again though.

[EVP]

I was about to ask if people think the elbow pain is just do to overuse and switching things around provided some relief because it changed the angle/grip enough to not aggravate the injury.... but GreggW experience counters that original idea I had.


I have been dryfiring and practicing with the Glock more recently and have noticed some elbow discomfort. Interesting to say the least.

[MGW]

I was about to ask if people think the elbow pain is just do to overuse and switching things around provided some relief because it changed the angle/grip enough to not aggravate the injury.... but GreggW experience counters that original idea I had.


I have been dryfiring and practicing with the Glock more recently and have noticed some elbow discomfort. Interesting to say the least.

I shot 150 rounds of 45 through the 1911 and 100 or so rounds through a friends Beretta 92 Saturday. I put a few rounds through a 17 and maybe 50 through my new 43x to check new sights out. I had a little elbow pain Sunday but not like before.

I’m not so sure it’s not a combination of over use and just gripping the Glock to tight. I’ve backed way off on dry fire with the 17 and it seems to have helped. I’ll add that weak hand only, the elbow that hurts, with the 45 was not very fun.

[Rex G]

Our hands/arms/shoulders are very complex systems. I will not speculate, over the internet, what may be the exact cause of anything, or try to say that what worked for me will work for anyone else. Having said that, every time my elbows hurt, it had to do with my hands gripping something, or my wrists moving. Every time lifting or holding a heavy weight was an issue, it was my shoulders that hurt, or malfunctioned.

I know that I have to grip a Glock very tightly, to have any hope of decent accuracy. I can feel the frame flex. I need not hold a 1911 nearly as firmly.

The only time lifting a heavy handgun has been the least bit problematic, it was my right shoulder. As the pistol reaches full extension, my arm might drop a bit, like a gear slipping on a few worn teeth.

[kihnspiracy]

A few years ago I had the same issue. I stopped shooting for a week or so, used ice packs on my elbow everyday after work. I then resumed shooting using my CZ 75's. I had read that switching to a heavier, hammer fired pistol would help for this issue. This worked for me. After 2 months, I went back to my polymer pistols.

[OlongJohnson]

I finally got basically Match trigger parts plus the LEM light TRS into a USP .45 FS. Was worried about the dry fire that followed, but initial impression is my elbow issues seemed to be reduced from what they had been previously. I'm sure it's not because the DA was lighter - it's still pretty darn heavy. But that big old slabby grip might have something. Will continue to monitor.