In 2019 - It's okay to not have BUIS on your defensive AR

[RevolverRob]

42590

Tell the truth - when was the last time you actually used your BUIS?

I know when last time I used mine was...when I installed them and zeroed them.

Since then I've needed them exactly zero times. I replace the battery in my Primary Arms Holosun-made reddot once every 8-weeks and leave it set on 3 or 4 out of 10. I've never had the dot actually die. But I turn it off at the range and shoot targets through the tube every time, just to make sure I can do it.

Here's an unpopular opinion - If you're running a hard-mounted optic you don't need BUIS.

Note the context DEFENSIVE AR15. If you're running a duty gun which may be employed for offensive purposes, you should probably have redundant sights, but only if you have a QD-mounted optic.

[blues]

Because you're RevolverRob, you may have more folks agreeing with you than not.



;)


Belt and suspenders. Is there any reason not to?

[olstyn]

Belt and suspenders. Is there any reason not to?

That analogy falls pretty flat for those of us whose pants stay up on their own even sans belt. :)

On the actual topic, though, given the price of backup irons relative to the price of the rest of a "properly set up" AR, they do feel somewhat like a "might as well."

[BehindBlueI's]

Why have sights at all?

[Sigfan26]

To each their own. I still maintain BUIS on my defensive rifles (and optic equipped handguns). They’re cheap and don’t take up much room. It’s a redundancy that isn’t necessary for most (but I’m not known for my good luck, so I make sure I have them).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[blues]

That analogy falls pretty flat for those of us whose pants stay up on their own even sans belt. :)

On the actual topic, though, given the price of backup irons relative to the price of the rest of a "properly set up" AR, they do feel somewhat like a "might as well."

Mine came with Magpul BUIS already in place. I saw no need to remove them after I installed an Aimpoint H2. Batteries can fail. (Anything can fail, for that matter.) They certainly don't add much weight, nor create any issues for me personally.

[Lon]

42590

Tell the truth - when was the last time you actually used your BUIS?


When some crazy dude was shooting at us on a SWAT call out and my Aimpoint T-1 shit the bed in the middle of it.

Which is why I don’t trust anything electronic. For BUIS are a must on any gun I use to defend myself with. Duty use or otherwise.

Edit: he was eventually shot by one of our snipers.

[Cecil Burch]

Mine came with Magpul BUIS already in place. I saw no need to remove them after I installed an Aimpoint H2. Batteries can fail. (Anything can fail, for that matter.) They certainly don't add much weight, nor create any issues for me personally.

This

If the only way to have BUIS was some expensive or difficult to get proposition, I might have agreed with little need for it. But the fact is something like the Magpul folding ones are cheap, easy to find, easy to install, take up little room on the rails, and never interfere with normal operation. Since Murphy generally strikes at the worst moment possible, covering the worst case scenario/black swan event is a smart thing to do to my way of thinking.

Certainly if someone prefers to do without, that’s cool, but it does not seem to be a bad thing to have a back up if everything fails (because as blues said above, everything mechanical will fail at some point. I don’t want that failure to come at the precise moment I am fighting for my life.

[Jay Cunningham]

In my experience, all of the “switched on” guys made sure they had BUIS on their rifles because they were terrified of being “that guy”.

However, I’d say 87% of those same switched on studs couldn’t be bothered to actually zero them.

Want to hear a large group of grown men cry and whine like 14 year old girls? Make a surprise announcement that their optics are all dead for the next four drills.



That there’s a no-shitter.

[Chance]

42590

Tell the truth - when was the last time you actually used your BUIS?

Every time live rounds go down range. If things were ever bad enough that I needed a rifle, there's no sense in assuming everything is going to go smoothly after that point.

[rcbusmc24]

I've got guys in my rifle company that is currently deployed running on KAC BUIS right now as a primary day sights because their SDO or RCO broke and went WIR and we don't have a replacement yet from the depot. We already ran out of stocks to issue out as replacements.

I know this is in a .mil duty setting but.... Well..... we break everything... This is the same reason I laugh when people talk about the durability of AGOG's.... yes they are, and everything else would probably have broken too.... But Marines can destroy anything they are issued.... In ways you would never think of. So for us redundancy is a good thing and why I force my company to spend the time zeroing the BUIS.

My personal rifles all have BUIS on them because I bought a bunch back in the day and now they are paid for.... All my optics are on QD mounts or I have the tools on the rifle to remove the mount ( or tighten it up more likely). Haven't needed any of them in a while but they aren't in the way.

The night fighting SBR's I've compromised on, the rears are not a problem but in order to put the lights and lasers in optimal locations the front buis are located well to the rear on the rail. It is the fourth option though as both guns have IR and VIS lasers and then the XPS3's to fail before I have to resort to the irons. The pistol will probably come out first...to solve the immediate problem.

[Lon]

Want to hear a large group of grown men cry and whine like 14 year old girls? Make a surprise announcement that their optics are all dead for the next four drills.



That there’s a no-shitter.

Hahahahaha. There’s so much truth in that statement.

[DamonL]

On my carbine with Aimpoint, I have fixed BUIS's. If the rifle has a scope, it does not have a BUIS.

[Darth_Uno]

Hell, I'm getting to the point where I'm not so sure you need them on RMR'ed pistols.

The question is really how likely you think your optic is to fail. In order to use BUIS (assuming we mean flip-ups) a few things have to happen. 1, the optic has to fail. 2, you have to have time to flip the sights up. 3, you still have to be able to see through your optic. Of course you can get around this by having offset irons, or a QD mount, but then the clock is still running while you chuck your optic. And you can get around #2 by having fixed sights, but most of us prefer not to have all that in your optic's window (that's another debate).

And even if everything goes to shit, you probably don't need any sights at all in an inside-your-home reactive scenario. Unless you got a big home with an open plan, you're looking at 40' or so tops.

If BUIS were $500 I could probably argue that the combination of 1 & 2 are pretty unlikely. I have never used mine once they were zeroed. But, I got 'em anyway.

[RevolverRob]

Why have sights at all?

Point shooting is where it's at.


In my experience, all of the “switched on” guys made sure they had BUIS on their rifles because they were terrified of being “that guy”.

However, I’d say 87% of those same switched on studs couldn’t be bothered to actually zero them.

Want to hear a large group of grown men cry and whine like 14 year old girls? Make a surprise announcement that their optics are all dead for the next four drills.

That there’s a no-shitter.

This is why I actually practice with the optic turned off. A buddy watched me run drills at 25-yards with the optic off and said, "Why are you doing that?" "Because someday this optic probably will die. If it happens when I need the optic, I'll still be able to use the gun."

"Why would the optic die?"

"Nevermind." :rolleyes:


I've got guys in my rifle company that is currently deployed running on KAC BUIS right now as a primary day sights because their SDO or RCO broke and went WIR and we don't have a replacement yet from the depot. We already ran out of stocks to issue out as replacements.

I know this is in a .mil duty setting but.... Well..... we break everything... This is the same reason I laugh when people talk about the durability of AGOG's.... yes they are, and everything else would probably have broken too.... But Marines can destroy anything they are issued.... In ways you would never think of. So for us redundancy is a good thing and why I force my company to spend the time zeroing the BUIS.

What's that joke about Marines, if you put a Marine in a room with an anvil it will come out broken or pregnant...



My personal rifles all have BUIS on them because I bought a bunch back in the day and now they are paid for.... All my optics are on QD mounts or I have the tools on the rifle to remove the mount ( or tighten it up more likely). Haven't needed any of them in a while but they aren't in the way.

The night fighting SBR's I've compromised on, the rears are not a problem but in order to put the lights and lasers in optimal locations the front buis are located well to the rear on the rail. It is the fourth option though as both guns have IR and VIS lasers and then the XPS3's to fail before I have to resort to the irons. The pistol will probably come out first...to solve the immediate problem.

Interestingly enough if I were going to pick a sight to keep fixed it would pretty much be the front sight. At least the window of your optic can function like a big aperture sight.

___

FWIW, I still have BUIS on my AR. But I was definitely sitting here earlier today asking myself why. Is it just because it's a good idea, or do I actually need them? Good ideas are fine and I'm certainly not removing them off my rifles anytime soon, because hey - why not?

But I was thinking about reconfiguring one of my guns to a more competition oriented platform. As I was looking at various uber-lightweight rails I thought, "Yea, so I need some 12-o'clock front rails for mounting my BUIS. Wait...why the fuck would I do that?"

And then I realized...in most scenarios that the average civilian AR15 is used in, a set of BUIS aren't even redundant, they're pretty much useless.

[Bigghoss]

I really don't see any compelling reason NOT to have backup irons on a gun.

[Bergeron]

There was a past SWAT magazine article written by Pat Rogers that discussed using a daylight visible green laser as a backup to red dot sights. I found it interesting enough that when I went to using a RDS pistol, I decided to use the Crimson Trace white light/green laser combo device.

I get why BUIS can be a good idea, I feel much less compulsion to have them here in 2019 than I used to in years past.

[Duelist]

In my experience, all of the “switched on” guys made sure they had BUIS on their rifles because they were terrified of being “that guy”.

However, I’d say 87% of those same switched on studs couldn’t be bothered to actually zero them.

Want to hear a large group of grown men cry and whine like 14 year old girls? Make a surprise announcement that their optics are all dead for the next four drills.



That there’s a no-shitter.

I work with 14yo girls on the daily. Want to make a room full of 14yo cry and whine? Take away their telephones.

[Rick R]

I’m a klutz. Mr. Murphy loves to screw with my stuff. Batteries die, sometimes well before the “use by” date ( I put a set of new AA in my issued GPS this summer and they promptly tried to go Chernoble on me when I turned it on in the National Forest). There will be no resupply during the chipmunk apocalypse.
Magpul MBUS sights aren’t expensive, don’t weigh much, don’t rust and don’t eat anything . Why wouldn’t you put them on any serious rifle and shoot them a couple times a year?

[Darth_Uno]

I work with 14yo girls on the daily. Want to make a room full of 14yo cry and whine? Take away their telephones.

I can see a bunch of 30+ grown men crying for the same reason.

My (personally owned) company offers guys an option of a company phone, or $40/mo ($10/wk) to use their personal phone. Everybody takes option 2. And everybody cries when I tell them that's to answer your phone when I call, not to be on Facebook and Instagram all day. While my situation's a little different answering texts, calls, and emails all day, I've had to get after a lot of guys for standing around looking a their phone. I know it's going to happen but if I don't address it, it'll get out of control pretty quick.

[DocGKR]

Every time I went on duty, I flipped up the BUIS and confirmed that my RDS had not had a dot shift. That is a significant reason to have a BUIS, not to mention the inevitable Murphy induced electronic failure. My hard use pistol had an RDS, BUIS, and a green laser......

[AKDoug]

So, what do all you LPVO super studs do for back up sights?

[olstyn]

So, what do all you LPVO super studs do for back up sights?

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that there are a couple of different options out there - you could go with either irons or a mini red dot on a 45-degree offset mount, or use one of those scope mounts that has a little bit of rail on top of the scope and put a mini red dot up there. Flip up irons and putting the LPVO on a quick detach mount could work, too. I think the fastest/most reliable to transition to in the event of a sudden failure would probably be the 45-degree offset irons, but if circumstances dictated that you had to use them for an extended period, that might not be great from an ergonomic perspective. Again, I'm no expert, so these ideas are worth what you paid for them.

[Lon]

So, what do all you LPVO super studs do for back up sights?

No super stud here. I’m just a regular stud. By I run 45 degree offset BUIS. I’ve also run a 45 degree MRDS.

42607

[JodyH]

Every time I went on duty, I flipped up the BUIS and confirmed that my RDS had not had a dot shift. That is a significant reason to have a BUIS,
^ This is why I have a BUIS on my red dot rifles, to verify dot zero ^
On my ACOG and Elcan topped rifles I don't use BUIS.

[Zincwarrior]

In my experience, all of the “switched on” guys made sure they had BUIS on their rifles because they were terrified of being “that guy”.

However, I’d say 87% of those same switched on studs couldn’t be bothered to actually zero them.

Want to hear a large group of grown men cry and whine like 14 year old girls? Make a surprise announcement that their optics are all dead for the next four drills.



That there’s a no-shitter.

Now you're just being a meanie.

[Zincwarrior]

I work with 14yo girls on the daily. Want to make a room full of 14yo cry and whine? Take away their telephones.

You know the Comanches would turn over their captives to the women to be tortured. You want to know why? You're about to find out. :rolleyes:

[Rosco Benson]

I prefer having BUIS. I prefer having a full size spare tire in my vehicle as well. My "varmint" AR does not have BUIS. If the scope breaks, it would be annoying, but the consequence is just a hike back to the Jeep for the back-up rifle. A fighting rifle is a different story.


Rosco

[BehindBlueI's]

However, I’d say 87% of those same switched on studs couldn’t be bothered to actually zero them.

Want to hear a large group of grown men cry and whine like 14 year old girls? Make a surprise announcement that their optics are all dead for the next four drills.



That there’s a no-shitter.

That's surprising to me.

We have to qual with both irons and optics at each in-service.

[rob_s]

I guess this is what we're doing now, faux-controversial troll posts?

Only thing I have to add is that just like Jay mentions, a lot of BUIS aren't actually zero'd. The flip side of that is not a lot of people have actually tried shooting with just the tube/window of their optic to see what they are actually capable of. if your use-case is interior residential structure distances you'd probably be shocked at how well you can do with the dot turned off and no BUIS at all.

[Casual Friday]

Every carbine and AR pistol we have are wearing BUIS, even the M&P 15-22s.

It's 2019, optics are no longer the common failure point as long as you're not buying them off Wish, it's the batteries that I don't completely trust...and like Doc and Jody pointed out, verifying your dot has shifted with the BUIS is a plus.

[Zincwarrior]

Is there an argument stated as to why you would take them off? It seems like the weight add is not material, and you already have it on.

[Jay Cunningham]

If mission drives the gear train, then the mission of my short 5.56mm carbine is home defense, and possible property defense. Inside it's going to look a lot like the classic CQB mission requirements. Magnified optics aren't the right gear. A variable can work, but is likely very expensive overkill. Irons alone are proven inferior against

A reliable, large tube 1X optic with a fixed or deployed front iron sight. Rear optional or mounted and simply folded away.

For me and my mission - simple arithmetic.

For my part (like rob mentioned) I need to shoot it with the dot turned off to make sure I know where it hits at inside house distances. If the rear is mounted, then I need to zero it at 100 yards using the small aperture.

If my optic can come off quickly, I need to zero the irons with the optic off the gun. If my optic does not come off quickly, then I need to zero my irons through the optic.

More simple arithmetic.

[MistWolf]

If mission drives the gear train, then the mission of my short 5.56mm carbine is home defense, and possible property defense. Inside it's going to look a lot like the classic CQB mission requirements. Magnified optics aren't the right gear. A variable can work, but is likely very expensive overkill. Irons alone are proven inferior against

A reliable, large tube 1X optic with a fixed or deployed front iron sight. Rear optional or mounted and simply folded away.

For me and my mission - simple arithmetic.

For my part (like rob mentioned) I need to shoot it with the dot turned off to make sure I know where it hits at inside house distances. If the rear is mounted, then I need to zero it at 100 yards using the small aperture.

If my optic can come off quickly, I need to zero the irons with the optic off the gun. If my optic does not come off quickly, then I need to zero my irons through the optic.

More simple arithmetic.

Can iron sights be seen through a 1x optic? I know they can be seen fine through a common 0x red dot/holographic sight (Aimpoint, PA, Romeo, EOTech etc), but I've never tried using iron sights with a 1x in place.

[helothar]

Can iron sights be seen through a 1x optic? I know they can be seen fine through a common 0x red dot/holographic sight (Aimpoint, PA, Romeo, EOTech etc), but I've never tried using iron sights with a 1x in place.Eotech, aimpoint etc are 1x optics as they dont offer any magnification (1 times the picture just equals the picture)

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Jay Cunningham]

Can iron sights be seen through a 1x optic? I know they can be seen fine through a common 0x red dot/holographic sight (Aimpoint, PA, Romeo, EOTech etc), but I've never tried using iron sights with a 1x in place.

I’m talking about a zero magnification optical aiming aid. A 30mm Aimpoint.

[O4L]

Can iron sights be seen through a 1x optic? I know they can be seen fine through a common 0x red dot/holographic sight (Aimpoint, PA, Romeo, EOTech etc), but I've never tried using iron sights with a 1x in place.1x = zero magnification

[BigD]

I guess this is what we're doing now, faux-controversial troll posts?



Yes. That and click bait titles.


The view-count indicator is probably contributing to it.

[sickeness]

BUIS with RDS is a great idea.

What seems retarded to me is people who put buis behind shit like ACOGs and Elcans.
Like, you are completely fucking your eye relief or length of pull with ypur primary so you can have a backup optic that you will never use.

[texasaggie2005]

If the optic relies on a battery for the reticle to be seen, it gets backup sights.

https://imgur.com/PUmECe9.jpg

[SD]

Completely agree with this statement from Jay. Leupold Tactical Prismatic optic with etched reticle works better for me in this application then my Aimpoint T- series. I have gone back and forth with front sight up/down.
If mission drives the gear train, then the mission of my short 5.56mm carbine is home defense, and possible property defense. Inside it's going to look a lot like the classic CQB mission requirements. Magnified optics aren't the right gear. A variable can work, but is likely very expensive overkill. Irons alone are proven inferior against

A reliable, large tube 1X optic with a fixed or deployed front iron sight. Rear optional or mounted and simply folded away.

For me and my mission - simple arithmetic.

For my part (like rob mentioned) I need to shoot it with the dot turned off to make sure I know where it hits at inside house distances. If the rear is mounted, then I need to zero it at 100 yards using the small aperture.

If my optic can come off quickly, I need to zero the irons with the optic off the gun. If my optic does not come off quickly, then I need to zero my irons through the optic.

More simple arithmetic.

[AKDoug]

Can iron sights be seen through a 1x optic? I know they can be seen fine through a common 0x red dot/holographic sight (Aimpoint, PA, Romeo, EOTech etc), but I've never tried using iron sights with a 1x in place.

Not any one I've used, but I see that Jay cleared that up. I agree totally with him. I like to run FSB carbines, or those with D.D. fixed fronts. I use the "dead" Aimpoint as a giant ghost ring and you'd be stunned at the accuracy you can get out to even 100 yards on man sized steel.

[MistWolf]

I’m talking about a zero magnification optical aiming aid. A 30mm Aimpoint.

Got it

[MistWolf]

Eotech, aimpoint etc are 1x optics as they dont offer any magnification (1 times the picture just equals the picture)

There's a difference between a 1x optic and a 0x optic. A 1x optic can be a fixed power or part of a zoom. 1x optics have a focal length.

Ox is like looking through a pane of glass. If an Aimpoint is a 1x optic, so are iron sights.

[Clusterfrack]

Magnification is the ratio of the size of the image to the size of the object. When the image and the object sizes are equal, the magnification is 1x.

Magnification less than one is a wide angle lens.

There can’t be 0x magnification.

[olstyn]

Magnification less than one is a wide angle lens.

There can’t be 0x magnification.

Indeed - it would be the visual equivalent of a divide by zero error. :)

[Hambo]

Magnification is the ratio of the size of the image to the size of the object. When the image and the object sizes are equal, the magnification is 1x.

Magnification less than one is a wide angle lens.

There can’t be 0x magnification.

You math guys sure know how to piss in the punch bowl.

[Nephrology]

I like having BUIS on my rifles because I enjoy shooting irons at the range too. Nice to be able to yank off my aimpoint or LPVO and shoot irons for a bit.

[Clusterfrack]

You math guys sure know how to piss in the punch bowl.

Sorry. But not really.

This thread inspired me to experiment with a front-only BUIS on my 300BO pistol. I have a TLR7 at 12:00 and a mostly smooth handguard. But there's a small rail section in front of the optic. I put the BUIS there, and am surprised how well it works (at least in dryfire).

[MistWolf]

Magnification is the ratio of the size of the image to the size of the object. When the image and the object sizes are equal, the magnification is 1x.

Magnification less than one is a wide angle lens.

There can’t be 0x magnification.

When looking through a scope, the scope projects an image of the object. When you look through an Aimpoint (or simple pane of glass or with nothing between the eye and the object) your eye sees the object, not a projected image. A 1x optic projects an image of the object at a 1:1 ratio. A 0x "optic" does not project an image.

[AKDoug]

When looking through a scope, the scope projects an image of the object. When you look through an Aimpoint (or simple pane of glass or with nothing between the eye and the object) your eye sees the object, not a projected image. A 1x optic projects an image of the object at a 1:1 ratio. A 0x "optic" does not project an image.

1X scopes are never truly 1X.. That's where the rub lies. They are always magnified a little bit.

[Clusterfrack]

When looking through a scope, the scope projects an image of the object. When you look through an Aimpoint (or simple pane of glass or with nothing between the eye and the object) your eye sees the object, not a projected image. A 1x optic projects an image of the object at a 1:1 ratio. A 0x "optic" does not project an image.

I get what you're trying to say. The accepted terminology for lenses is:

Simple: single lens
Compound: multiple lenses
Complex: multiple lens groups

This is independent of the magnification and other properties of the lens. No lens can have zero magnification. What you're saying about "projected" image also isn't strictly correct. All images through a conventional lens system originate from light "rays" from the object, regardless of how many elements are in the lens (unless you have a mirror, or diffractive optics (like in the EOTech)).

[Hambo]

I get what you're trying to say. The accepted terminology for lenses is:

Simple: single lens
Compound: multiple lenses
Complex: multiple lens groups

This is independent of the magnification and other properties of the lens. No lens can have zero magnification. What you're saying about "projected" image also isn't strictly correct. All images through a conventional lens system originate from light "rays" from the object, regardless of how many elements are in the lens (unless you have a mirror, or diffractive optics (like in the EOTech)).

I think I understand what you're saying, but I realize now that I just look through glass without knowing a damn thing about it. Care to explain more? Don't worry about talking down to me. In fact, you should probably make it caveman easy to understand.

[olstyn]

I think I finally get where MistWolf's terminology problem is coming from - he's trying to say "zero magnification" when he says "0x." Of course, Clusterfrack and I interpreted that in math terms and thought "that's completely, impossibly wrong," which of course it is, because zero magnification is 1x, and 0.5x would be a pretty extreme fisheye/wide angle lens, with 0x being physically impossible (again, divide by zero error), but conceptually something akin to a spherical panorama originating at a single point of zero size. All that "math stuff" aside, if we leave aside the terminology error (hard to do for those of us with pedantic bent, sorry!), it's clear that as clusterfrack said, Mistwolf is just talking about the difference between simple and complex lenses. Hard to have a meaningful conversation when we don't start from the same place in terms of what the terms we're using mean, but maybe we can try again, and if we're lucky, we'll all learn something. :)

[Chuck Whitlock]

That's surprising to me.

We have to qual with both irons and optics at each in-service.

I made my guys do this when we fielded EOTech's.

[VT1032]

I watched an Aimpoint Comp M4 mount fail in the middle of a qual range where the optic wasn't firmly locked down into place. Not sure what made it fail, I just know the soldier was not hitting squat and when I looked it over the optic was loose and would not lock into place if you twisted until the click, like normal. The Comp M4 is probably the most bombproof red dot I've ever seen and it failed. I don't blame the optic, I'm sure it took plenty of abuse. If you gave Joe four bowling balls, he'd lose one, break one, knock one up and marry the fourth to get out of the barracks... Shit happens, stuff breaks and Murphy gets a vote. I like having a plan B.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[TXBK]

If your primary sight runs off batteries and your intended purpose for the rifle is for self-defense, zeroed backup sights are mandatory. The proof of this for me and my primary rifle has already proven itself to me. While it wasn’t used in self defense, it was used in “property” defense. In this case, I encountered a wild hog, and hogs had been fucking up my grass. I pulled my rifle from its normal carry position, and the battery on my T1 was dead. I flipped up my KAC BUIS and took care of the problem. It was a harmless instance that proved to me that BUIS aren’t just for show.

[maximus83]

I get the arguments for not running BUIS, and Frank Proctor made a case (http://soldiersystems.net/2016/08/13/gunfighter-moment-frank-proctor-16/) for it. But ultimately I found the arguments supporting BUIS to be more convincing.

Tried running an offset Aimpoint for a while as backup or CQB alternative on a rifle running a 2.5-10x optic. Ran into one instance in rainy cold conditions (PNW), the scope fogged AND the Aimpoint fogged. My profound takeaway was: if climate/temp conditions can mess with one optic, they can mess with the other one.

Even as a civilian I still run inline/folded BUIS on any carbine that is potential SD/HD use. Also considered trying offset BUIS, for more immediate access vs having to rip a QD optic and flip up the BUIS. Interested to hear if a lot of folks are running offset BUIS, and if it's worth the hassle to upgrade from inline BUIS.

[MDFA]

If you follow Best Practices and sound training doctrine.

We carry a Primary Handgun (Hopefully an Actual Fighting Handgun) many times with RDS and a Compensator and a reload or reloads for it.

We carry back up guns and reloads for them.

We Carry blades, usually more than one.

We carry Tourniquets Quik Clot or the like and any number of Multi tools etc.

Yet people get wrapped around the axle about a few ounces or the cost of a BUIS.

Yes I teach using the window of the Optic as a large Ghost Ring and it works quite well, however at a longer distance I think a set of properly installed and zeroed BUIS is pretty cheap insurance.

YMMV Just my 2 cents.

[MDFA]

I made my guys do this when we fielded EOTech's.

I did the same with my guys and gals.

[JonInWA]

Decided, significantly because of this thread, not to be "that guy" and installed a set of Magpul MBUIS on my SIG M400 Tread with a Romeo5. And properly zeroed 'em. While I may never need them, at least if I do, they're there and ready.

Best, Jon

[Doc_Glock]

I just replaced the batteries in a bunch of Aimpoint Micros. Some of them had been on 6 years and still running.

But I still run plastic MBUS.

[smolphry]

My home defense gun has an aimpoint so I'm not concerned with irons. Plus, if the aimpoint happens to go down and I have to shoot a thing at the farthest point in my house I'm looking at less than 25 yards, easy enough to point shoot through the optic body.

That being said, I wouldn't dissuade someone from running them.

[Jay Cunningham]

My home defense gun has an aimpoint so I'm not concerned with irons. Plus, if the aimpoint happens to go down and I have to shoot a thing at the farthest point in my house I'm looking at less than 25 yards, easy enough to point shoot through the optic body.

That being said, I wouldn't dissuade someone from running them.

Have you validated point shooting through the optic body live at 25 yards?

How were your results?

[Casual Friday]

Have you validated point shooting through the optic body live at 25 yards?

How were your results?

I have. With just the optic body and no front sight as a reference it's a soup sandwich. That's the main reason I prefer a fixed front sight. In the event of a dead optic, a fixed or deployed front sight is very useful, which is why I'm sure you prefer a fixed or deployed front sight as well.

[deputyG23]

Have you validated point shooting through the optic body live at 25 yards?

How were your results?

I need to do this.
My Armalite Defender 15 has the front sight assembly and an inexpensive Sightmark red dot sight that was a gift from my new son in law.
It has BUIS installed which I shoot frequently with.
With a new Sheriff starting in a couple of weeks, I am cautiously optimistic we can finally start a rifle program before I retire.

[rob_s]

Have you validated point shooting through the optic body live at 25 yards?

How were your results?


I have. With just the optic body and no front sight as a reference it's a soup sandwich. That's the main reason I prefer a fixed front sight. In the event of a dead optic, a fixed or deployed front sight is very useful, which is why I'm sure you prefer a fixed or deployed front sight as well.

My experience was the opposite. I wouldn't attempt a head shot past a hostage, but burning down an A/C steel at 25 yards with no dot was cake when I tried it.

I still like BUIS. I think that the no-BUIS crowd are largely just contrarian wooden spoon snowflake millenials (or those who's brains have been poisoned by millenials) trying to trigger (those they see as) boomers.

[snow white]

On my red dot rifle I absolutely have a set of the plastic mbuis as true "oh fuck" backups. That said, on my rifle with a p4xi I do not have irons as the optic has an etched reticle. Maybe I'm dumb tho....I've been looking at 45 offset irons but have not made the purchase yet.

[randyho]

if your use-case is interior residential structure distances you'd probably be shocked at how well you can do with the dot turned off and no BUIS at all.
Having, in my youth, spent several hundred to thousands of hours behind a daisy with garbage sights that I learned to not use, I can confirm this as a possibility.

[NH Shooter]

On my red dot rifle I absolutely have a set of the plastic mbuis as true "oh fuck" backups. That said, on my rifle with a p4xi I do not have irons as the optic has an etched reticle. Maybe I'm dumb tho....I've been looking at 45 offset irons but have not made the purchase yet.

I've used the MBUS PRO offset sights and very much like them. Holding the rifle with a 45 degree cant is not as bad as it sounds, but still not as good as a normal vertical hold.

I too am using a low-powered optic as the primary sighting system with no BUIS. Though the mount I'm using is not QD, keeping an Allen wrench stowed in the grip is no biggie if I need to remove the optic. For this reason, I'm more inclined to use a non-offset set of BUIS - if the optic fails so badly that I can no longer use it, I'd prefer to remove it entirely and be able to use the rifle with conventional holds.

BTW, do you use the Pemi range?

[TGS]

Have you validated point shooting through the optic body live at 25 yards?

How were your results?

We actively train it as an option on a sliding scale of "how quickly do I need to shoot" after sights die.

Useful for hitting a torso out to 25.

However, one of the reasons our FTU encourages a C-clamp grip is also because it places your thumb near the front sight, making it quick and easy to flip it up. Front sight + tube body is obviously a huge improvement.

[snow white]

I've used the MBUS PRO offset sights and very much like them. Holding the rifle with a 45 degree cant is not as bad as it sounds, but still not as good as a normal vertical hold.

I too am using a low-powered optic as the primary sighting system with no BUIS. Though the mount I'm using is not QD, keeping an Allen wrench stowed in the grip is no biggie if I need to remove the optic. For this reason, I'm more inclined to use a non-offset set of BUIS - if the optic fails so badly that I can no longer use it, I'd prefer to remove it entirely and be able to use the rifle with conventional holds.

BTW, do you use the Pemi range?

I have been to pemi but it's a bit of a drive for me. I'm a member at bear camp, Other than that I use pits in ossipee. I see you guys are hosting some two gun shoots, I will absolutely be attending.

[Odin Bravo One]

Used to be I just ignored dumb shit I read on the Internet.

I have too much respect for Todd’s memory to not publicly eye roll the dumb shit in this thread. 🙄

[spinmove_]

I've used the MBUS PRO offset sights and very much like them. Holding the rifle with a 45 degree cant is not as bad as it sounds, but still not as good as a normal vertical hold.

I too am using a low-powered optic as the primary sighting system with no BUIS. Though the mount I'm using is not QD, keeping an Allen wrench stowed in the grip is no biggie if I need to remove the optic. For this reason, I'm more inclined to use a non-offset set of BUIS - if the optic fails so badly that I can no longer use it, I'd prefer to remove it entirely and be able to use the rifle with conventional holds.

BTW, do you use the Pemi range?

I mean, I’m a nobody when it comes to running a carbine, so I fully admit I’m lane drifting here. But, thinking out loud for a moment, isn’t this the reason why someone should pony up for the QD mount and run a set of BUIS?

I get it. Dot goes out and the etched reticle is hardly a total failure. But if the glass isn’t holding zero or is so smashed you can’t see through it, I’d imagine you’d be far better off shucking the optic and just flipping the irons up and moving on, no?

[NH Shooter]

I mean, I’m a nobody when it comes to running a carbine, so I fully admit I’m lane drifting here.

No worries, I'm so far out of my lane that I may as well be off-roading. :-/

My goal with my optic setup was (1) light weight; (2) etched reticle with adjustable ocular and (3) low power fixed magnification. For better or for worse in the upcoming zombie apocalypse, nothing else mattered to me. So I got all three of my main priorities met with a FX-II Ultralight 2.5x20mm (https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rimfire-scopes/fx-ii-ultralight-2-5x20mm) scope (how weird is that on an AR?) in a Daniel Defense mount (https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defenser-1-optics-mount-double-ring.html), the scope and mount together weigh 12 ounces. My old eyes can see the Fuddy duplex reticle just fine, and if its too dark to see it, I resort to white light.

FWIW, the scope has worked out amazingly well for me: crystal-clear optics, long eye relief and a forgiving eye box. It's allegedly tougher than nails (a well-vetted dangerous game rifle scope). The mount seems quite rugged without knobs, nuts or levers sticking out. Best of all, my limited processing power is not tasked with decisions on what power to select or how bright to adjust the dot (or reticle). It's one of those point-and-shoot affairs for the simple-minded.

After experimenting over the years with a variety of RDS and LPVOs, it's the first time ever that I no longer have any desire to further experiment with optics for this rifle. But then again maybe that's simply because I spend all my money on flashlights now.


https://i.ibb.co/GP2K408/rifle-2.jpg

[spinmove_]

No worries, I'm so far out of my lane that I may as well be off-roading. :-/

My goal with my optic setup was (1) light weight; (2) etched reticle with adjustable ocular and (3) low power fixed magnification. For better or for worse in the upcoming zombie apocalypse, nothing else mattered to me. So I got all three of my main priorities met with a FX-II Ultralight 2.5x20mm (https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rimfire-scopes/fx-ii-ultralight-2-5x20mm) scope (how weird is that on an AR?) in a Daniel Defense mount (https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defenser-1-optics-mount-double-ring.html), the scope and mount together weigh 12 ounces. My old eyes can see the Fuddy duplex reticle just fine, and if its too dark to see it, I resort to white light.

FWIW, the scope has worked out amazingly well for me: crystal-clear optics, long eye relief and a forgiving eye box. It's allegedly tougher than nails (a well-vetted dangerous game rifle scope). The mount seems quite rugged without knobs, nuts or levers sticking out. Best of all, my limited processing power is not tasked with decisions on what power to select or how bright to adjust the dot (or reticle). It's one of those point-and-shoot affairs for the simple-minded.

After experimenting over the years with a variety of RDS and LPVOs, it's the first time ever that I no longer have any desire to further experiment with optics for this rifle. But then again maybe that's simply because I spend all my money on flashlights now.


https://i.ibb.co/GP2K408/rifle-2.jpg

While I love your very spartan concept of your AR, is a non-QD mount THAT much lighter than a QD mount with irons? Or at least adding offset irons to what you already have?

[Pistol Pete 10]

I have a 3-9 scope on one, a prism scope on the other. The only red dots are on a 10/22 and a couple bullseye pistols. No need for iron sights on any of them.

[NH Shooter]

While I love your very spartan concept of your AR, is a non-QD mount THAT much lighter than a QD mount with irons? Or at least adding offset irons to what you already have?

The QD mounts I've used (Larue and Bobro) were two to three ounces heavier and definitely not as snag-free. The mount that comes with the Aimpoint PRO is QD, but that big honkin' knob sticks out like a sore thumb. For me a compelling reason for QD mounts on an AR is if I had multiple optic packages I wanted to be able to easily switch between. Maybe if I ever hit Powerball I'll buy one of those Trijicon thermal scopes (https://www.trijicon.com/products/subcategory/trijicon-reap-ir) and have my single-rifle dedicated optics in QD mounts.

I had a set of MBUS PRO offset BUIS on the rifle in the photo, but ended up selling them to invest the $$ in something else. I never even sighted them in, and I admit that was lame. I am also a guy who drove around with no spare tire in my car for over ten years, carrying only a small 12V compressor and a bottle of Green Goo. I figure my chances of needing a set of BUIS to save my ass is considerably less than needing a spare tire.

In any case, I cannot refute your sound reasoning, something I don't always employ myself.

[kwb377]

If faced with the choice, the QD levers on a Laure mount would be much more snag-free than a set of offset irons.

[NH Shooter]

If faced with the choice, the QD levers on a Laure mount would be much more snag-free than a set of offset irons.

The Larue mounts are indeed more snag-free than most others, save perhaps the Scalarworks mounts (which are IMO the pinnacle of mount design). If they were available for 1-inch scopes, I'd be mighty tempted to drop $400 on one.

FWIW, the MBUS PRO offset BUIS fold down very snag free, one of the things I really like about them.

Another point that floats around in my empty skull is that the typical AR free-float handguard, though relatively sturdy, can be (almost imperceptibly) deflected with sling tension (think High Power shooting with a sling). Additionally, I believe a free-float handguard could be tweaked/bent out of alignment perhaps even easier than the typical scope mount or scope, and IMO easier than bending a barrel (front sight mounted to the barrel). So while I appreciate the utility a good set of BUIS can provide, I'm not convinced they're any less prone to POA/POI misalignment due to rough handling than a scope mounted directly to the receiver.

This is not intended in any way to dismiss the utility of BUIS, just to articulate my own (perhaps unfounded) concerns of having a front sight mounted on a handguard.

[babypanther]

Yes, be familiar with them, and have them zero'd. Doesn't hurt, assessed no weight penalty for using them, and if you need them you have them.

If you are using the gun for Timmy stuff, you may have to work around PEQ's, tape switches (if you use them), white light placement, etc., but there are still options for mounting BUIS that don't get in the way.

[NH Shooter]

So, I have returned to the Land of BUIS.

For a rifle that I may need to stake my life (or the lives of my family) on, it seems silly not to have the rifle so equipped. More than an optic failure, I see the potential for the optic fogging coming in from the cold to a warm, higher humidity interior.

I have tried many BUIS sights and combinations over the years. I had a set of MBUS PRO offset BUIS on this rifle a while back and I ended up ditching them. Not that there was anything I didn't like about the sights, but just felt at the time there was no need. The thing I really liked about the MBUS PRO offset is how low-profile they were folded down. In this regard, there is no better.

A while back I had tried going back to irons as my primary sights using the Midwest Industries Combat Rifle Rear Flip Sight (https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/Combat-Rifle-Flip-up-Rear-Sight-p/mi-crs-r.htm). What I really liked about that sight was the simple, single aperture design that featured a mid-size aperture. I always found the dual aperture sights (like the MBUS PRO) to be too fussy in regards to which aperture to use: the small one was great for long range precision but too small for the close-and-fast stuff, and the large aperture too large for anything beyond 50 yards. For my eyes, the MI midsize aperture struck a good balance.

Additionally, the MBUS PRO front sight has an elevation thumb screw. Though the screw is pretty snug, for back-up sights I prefer setting elevation with a tool to eliminate the chance of accidently changing the elevation. Since the optic remains the primary sighting device and the offset irons are strictly for back up, IMO dual apertures and elevation thumb wheels are unneeded complication.

Based on this experience, I decided to give the MI Combat Rifle Offset Sight Set (https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/Combat-Rifle-Offset-Sight-Set-p/mi-crs-oss.htm) a try. Have not had a chance to sight them in yet, but I very much like the design of these sights;


https://i.ibb.co/vwbCJKH/micsoffset-1.jpg


https://i.ibb.co/Z8kWwP9/micsoffset-2.jpg


The MI sights seem quite robust and I very much like the sight picture they provide. Where they fall short compared to the MBUS PRO is that they do not fold down as close to the handguard. Where the MBUS PRO fold down tight and very much out of the way, the MI sights leave about a 3/8" gap when folded down. I was aware of this before purchasing them but decided the advantages cited above were more important.

My rifle feels complete again.

[Darth_Uno]

Yes, be familiar with them, and have them zero'd. Doesn't hurt, assessed no weight penalty for using them, and if you need them you have them.

If you are using the gun for Timmy stuff, you may have to work around PEQ's, tape switches (if you use them), white light placement, etc., but there are still options for mounting BUIS that don't get in the way.

Captain Obvious here, but you can just leave the front sight flipped up. Gains you one or two slots if that’s important to your setup. And if you’re doing that, a fixed sight like the DD is more robust.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wake27]

I don't think Aimpoints deserve nearly the rep they have, so unless you are super proactive about changing batteries (at least every 6 mos), I'd have BUIS still. But you're right, I've never actually needed mine. The 2-3 times I picked up my T2 equipped gun and it was dead wasn't an emergency, so a battery swap was all I needed. My primary AR does not have them though because it has a Razor mounted and I can still shoot that better with a dead battery than I can irons.

[frozentundra]

I like a fixed front sight and an ADM absolute co-witness QD mount for RDS. The optic tube becomes a really easy to use rear sight if I turn the dot off. It's really easy to make good hits. I think I would actually rather have this setup than the folded Magpul MBUS that lives behind it for shooting inside of 10-15 yards in low light.

That advise from DocGKR about using backup irons to periodically check your dot is pure gold. I can't believe this never occurred to me.

[deflave]

If I had to worry about the reliability of my optic I wouldn't be using an optic.

[TGS]

I don't think it's a matter of having to "worry" about the reliability of an optic.

Optics can and do fail (whether electronically or through breakage), BUIS provide a relatively low cost, simple, robust, effective solution Johnny-on-the-spot for when they do fail. Whether you think it matters to what you're using a gun for is one thing, but it's not a matter of "worrying" about your optic.

[babypanther]

Captain Obvious here, but you can just leave the front sight flipped up. Gains you one or two slots if that’s important to your setup. And if you’re doing that, a fixed sight like the DD is more robust.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Copy on that, I've rolled that way too. With my current set up, between my T2 and the visible laser on the PEQ, the BUIS are the 3rd and therefore least important. I set the gun up with the PEQ overhanging the rail by a little bit, then my pressure pad for the WML, then the front sight post. I'm a bigger guy with longer arms, so a 9.5 inch Geissele rail on an 11.5 inch barrel was probably a bit on the short side looking back, but it is what it is. I feel confident enough in the T2 and my PCC/PCI's regarding battery changes that I'm willing to roll the dice.

[Suvorov]

May have been mentioned before but I find an erect (he he he....) front sight post is a great way to eliminate canting the rifle and loosing precision at longer distances.

While I’m a nerd and thus can’t have a rifle without zeroed iron sights (assuming they have them) I will admit that other than cant correction they will probably never serve a purpose.

[PNWTO]

My sole AR will, probably, never have BUIS. I am probably wrong or myopic but I have yet to hear a valid, ass-saving story about BUIS on a carbine.

However, I do have a CMR-201 on the bottom rail so perhaps that “counts” for this discussion.

[TGS]

My sole AR will, probably, never have BUIS. I am probably wrong or myopic but I have yet to hear a valid, ass-saving story about BUIS on a carbine.

However, I do have a CMR-201 on the bottom rail so perhaps that “counts” for this discussion.

I would say that's acceptable for your purposes. A duty rifle, not so much.

Might be hard to find an "ass saving" story as that's a fairly strict search parameter within a very undocumented category of mishaps, but there's plenty of people that have had optics failures.

I had an ACOG come loose on the mount of a duty rifle, which meant the optic was out-of-service until I would have been able to re-zero it. The fact that I had BUIS did not save my ass, as my ass did not become involved in any events which would threaten asses, but the BUIS would have allowed me to continue the mission with an acceptable modicum of capability.

[19852+]

It's 2019 and it's OK to not have an optical sight on my all around AR..
Irons only !

[19852+]

From the likes my post has received maybe I should start another thread on preferred iron sights? I would be interested in what others prefer.

[coldcase1984]

No worries, I'm so far out of my lane that I may as well be off-roading. :-/

My goal with my optic setup was (1) light weight; (2) etched reticle with adjustable ocular and (3) low power fixed magnification. For better or for worse in the upcoming zombie apocalypse, nothing else mattered to me. So I got all three of my main priorities met with a FX-II Ultralight 2.5x20mm (https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rimfire-scopes/fx-ii-ultralight-2-5x20mm) scope (how weird is that on an AR?) in a Daniel Defense mount (https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defenser-1-optics-mount-double-ring.html), the scope and mount together weigh 12 ounces. My old eyes can see the Fuddy duplex reticle just fine, and if its too dark to see it, I resort to white light.

FWIW, the scope has worked out amazingly well for me: crystal-clear optics, long eye relief and a forgiving eye box. It's allegedly tougher than nails (a well-vetted dangerous game rifle scope). The mount seems quite rugged without knobs, nuts or levers sticking out. Best of all, my limited processing power is not tasked with decisions on what power to select or how bright to adjust the dot (or reticle). It's one of those point-and-shoot affairs for the simple-minded.

After experimenting over the years with a variety of RDS and LPVOs, it's the first time ever that I no longer have any desire to further experiment with optics for this rifle. But then again maybe that's simply because I spend all my money on flashlights now.


https://i.ibb.co/GP2K408/rifle-2.jpg

YAHTZEE!

@Leupold has discontinued all 4x & all but one 6x scopes! I'm about to buy several of the still-extant 2.5x Leupys because 90 percent of mammals I've killed in my 60 years could've been felled with one of those.

Got two M8 4X on rifles that would work in the 'Pockylypse for everything.

[NH Shooter]

I'm about to buy several of the still-extant 2.5x Leupys because 90 percent of mammals I've killed in my 60 years could've been felled with one of those.


The FX-II Ultralight 2.5x20mm (https://www.leupold.com/scopes/rimfire-scopes/fx-ii-ultralight-2-5x20mm) doesn't even live on the same planet as Tactical Timmy, but for old eyes it's a Godsend: clear, bright glass, plenty of eye relief and a forgiving-enough eye box. At 12 ounces with the DD mount it doesn't turn a "lightweight carbine" into a top-heavy pig either.

A simple, non-illuminated duplex reticle. Fixed power (about 2.2x actual). No fancy turrets. Fixed parallax (150 yards). After trying many Tactical Timmy scopes, its the first one I'm truly pleased with for my general purpose, 7.5 pound carbine (I've since added a set of MI offset BUIS which added a few ounces).

Just shoulder the rifle and shoot - no adjustments to dick around with. I'm such a simpleton.

[rob_s]

I still keep coming back to the question: other than 2020 Millennial hipster gunfag brag-on-internut contrarianism, why *not* have a basic set of irons on the gun?

[Grizzlyblake]

I can answer that. I don't do internet bragging, don't instagram, or any of that. I am technically a millennial, but I have a professional career, house, kids, etc.

My AR is a Sionics LW 16" and I want it as light and handy as possible as it's more of a general purpose/ranch rifle that can be used to defend our home if necessary. I'm trading my current Vortex Viper 1-6 out for a Trijicon Accupower 1-4 to save 6.5oz. I use Warne X-Skel mounts because they're very lightweight but more robust than the Aeros. I use the built-in QD sling mount on the Sionics rail so I don't have to add another QD socket.

Essentially it gives me as light of a carbine as reasonably possible, and since I'm not using a QD optic mount I don't really see the necessity of BUIS, which allows me to save that weight as well.

I'm taking it hog hunting tonight and will do 100% of any shooting standing off hand. Light weight is paramount for me.

[whomever]

The Leupold site has the FX-II Ultralight 2.5x20mm listed under 'Scopes / Rimfire Scope / FX-II Ultralight 2.5x20mm'. Is the 'rimfire' part of that a bad omen for using it on a centerfire, especially e.g. a light, hard recoiling one?

[NH Shooter]

The Leupold site has the FX-II Ultralight 2.5x20mm listed under 'Scopes / Rimfire Scope / FX-II Ultralight 2.5x20mm'. Is the 'rimfire' part of that a bad omen for using it on a centerfire, especially e.g. a light, hard recoiling one?

Actually, the scope is designed for dangerous game rifles (think 458 Win Mag). It is renown for its durability in that realm.

Take a look at the reviews on the Leupold page linked above.

More links;

https://www.chuckhawks.com/leupold_ultralight_2-5x20.htm

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2274971/1

[whomever]

NH Shooter: many thanks - your links sure make it seem like it would be fine.

(I had looked at the Leupold revues - I'm not sure they pertain to the scope at hand. For example here are some snippets from the revues at the bottom of the 2.5 page:

" It had a badly canted reticle and the scope has very bad tunneling below 8 power."
"No problem with the 40mm in low light. Absolutely love cds."
"So I exchanged that scope for the VX3 4.5-14x40"

Some of the revues mention this particular scope, but some others seem like Leupold just jumbles the revues from many models together or something, so it's hard to be sure)

[NH Shooter]

Yes, I noticed that too. I think people mistakenly leave reviews under other products, which does lend to confusion.

My own review would include the following points;


I like the overall rifle handling qualities better with this lightweight scope package vs. some of the heavier optics I've tried
The optical quality is more than sufficient, the view bright and clear
The adjustable (and lockable) eyepiece allows me to focus the reticle razor sharp
The long eye relief allows mounting the scope further forward, leaving full unhindered access to the CH
The 2.2x magnification more than sufficient for the distances I typically shoot (200 - 300 yards)
The scope works well at inside-the-house distances with both eyes open, especially with a WML to "pop" the reticle contrast on the target


I find the old cliché of "less is more" applies well to this setup. Never being completely satisfied with other scopes I had tried, I was tempted for years to give this one a try - I'm glad I finally did.

[coldcase1984]

Looking back at this thread inspired me.

Boredom set in few days ago so slapped a 10.5 LMT 5.56 upper bought in the Gundemic of '12 onto a 2019 Aero pistol lower purchase then put the 2.5 Leupy on it with inexpensive Nikon P-Series MSR ring set.

If range at the Ranch is dry enough today, will establish a 50/173 zero w Hornady 5.56 62 gr TAP BARRIER.

Ideal set up JIC a toilet paper riot breaks out in the Wal-Mart parking lot.

Seriously, thinking about dropping a CMC trigger in it and maybe a folding mechanism. It's pretty dang wieldy.

Gonna need to keep some earpro in Mizriz Coldcase's Kia Soul, though...

[awp_101]

However, one of the reasons our FTU encourages a C-clamp grip is also because it places your thumb near the front sight, making it quick and easy to flip it up. Front sight + tube body is obviously a huge improvement.
I initially read this as using your thumb as a field expedient front sight and immediately tried looking at my thumb through the LPVO. It actually sort of worked until my mind properly put together all the words I'd quickly skimmed and I started laughing too hard at what I was doing for it to be effective.

Question for anyone running a DD fixed front but no rear BUIS. How do you zero the front without a rear?

[Casual Friday]

Question for anyone running a DD fixed front but no rear BUIS. How do you zero the front without a rear?

I'm still running a rear folding BUIS, but if you didn't want to run one for some reason I would still mount one and zero them along with the optic, then you could remove it.

In the event of a dead battery, which I worry about 10x more than my Aimpoint itself actually failing, you can still get solid hits on target out to 50 yards and even beyond by just referencing the front sight through the optic, which serves as a rear sight of sorts. You just have to turn your optic off and spend some time at the range learning the POA/POI.

[RevolverRob]

This thread certainly generated some discussion, thoughts, and even tech, didn't it?

A classic Socratic method application.

___

I think I mentioned it way back in this thread, but didn't find it.

I run my ARs with fixed front sight posts + tube optic. If my optic dies, I have, by default a ghost-ring iron sight setup. I turn my optic off and practice with it and have my front sight post zero'ed to 25, while my optic is zero'ed to 25 and I'm 1/3 lower co-witness. Basically, my dot floats right above my front sight post. Giving me an excellent dot reference point AND the ability to go back to the post without a dot no problem.

I ALSO have an MBUS flip-up rear sight and my optic is on a QD mount. I could rip it off and drive-on if I wanted to.

While I do not necessarily think that the back-up irons are wholly necessary. I do think they are useful and offer some advantages.

For instance - I know the zero of my front sight and the approximate height of my dot above my front sight post when the optic is zero'ed. A couple of times I've removed my optic to adjust something on the rifle and reattached the optic. To get my zero 'close' I just adjust the dot to the front sight post. Each time, I've found that this has resulted in an extremely close proper zero, usually only a couple of clicks of windage off. Meaning, if my fight had broken out in-between re-zeroing the optic at the range I would have been more than good enough to make hits with my dot.

I also agree with Suvorov on the value of the front sight post to prevent canting the gun. If you don't have cross-hairs in your reticle, a horizontal plane can be difficult to establish. The front sight post provides a very good reference point in this regard (assuming it's mounted straight and level, of course).

[TGS]

I also agree with Suvorov on the value of the front sight post to prevent canting the gun. If you don't have cross-hairs in your reticle, a horizontal plane can be difficult to establish. The front sight post provides a very good reference point in this regard (assuming it's mounted straight and level, of course).

This might be person dependent, but I haven't seen this present itself as an issue in shooting out to 300 yards, whether off-hand or from barricades.

[DMF13]

I run my ARs with fixed front sight posts + tube optic. If my optic dies, I have, by default a ghost-ring iron sight setup.You can still do this, albeit not as well, with an EOTech. We have fixed front sight posts on all our work guns, including the sims guns, and EOTech XPS sights. One day during some force on force training I got handed a sims gun that had a dead battery in the EOTech. Since we had already completed the safety check, and no one had thought to bring spare batteries into the training area, I just centered the post in the window and went to work. At shorter ranges it was easy to get hits on a person. Funny thing is I don't even notice the front sight post when the red dot is on, and shooting both eyes open. I have an absolute cowitness setup on my work gun, and don't see any need for the whole lower 1/3 stuff for me, but I know everyone is different. My personal ARs do have MBUS on them though.

[RevolverRob]

This might be person dependent, but I haven't seen this present itself as an issue in shooting out to 300 yards, whether off-hand or from barricades.

It probably isn’t that big a deal?

I like the horizontal plane of reference, but if you think about it - the barrel is concentric so any canting of the gun left or right is mostly just rotating the gun around that central axis. Because the grips are angled, I guess it’s possible to pull the muzzle up or down a bit if the gun is canted.

I’ve found at longer rangers cant can effect bullet placement by maybe 2” depending on how the gun is tilted. Probably not enough for it to matter in the real world.

[rob_s]

Canting the gun can definitely affect POI relative to POA. Anyone that’s taken a Kyle Lamb class has tested this for themselves and learned some rules of thumb to address it.

7 years ago, anyway
https://www.tactical-life.com/lifestyle/military-and-police/viking-tactics-carbine-course/

[critter]

It's 2020... all sights are obsolete. Hell, so are eyes. Just use the Force!

I've seen Murphy at work too many times in all areas of life to give up an unpowered secondary sighting system - even when my chance of ever being in armed confrontation is minuscule. A 45 degree RMR may do the trick, but even then, I'd probably still keep the irons anyway.

[RevolverRob]

Canting the gun can definitely affect POI relative to POA. Anyone that’s taken a Kyle Lamb class has tested this for themselves and learned some rules of thumb to address it.

7 years ago, anyway
https://www.tactical-life.com/lifestyle/military-and-police/viking-tactics-carbine-course/

How extreme are the deviations?

I’ve not found them to be super extreme BUT the vast majority of my time running a carbine has been on a square range with minimal movement, etc. So I’m hardly qualified to speak generally about things.

[rob_s]

How extreme are the deviations?

I’ve not found them to be super extreme BUT the vast majority of my time running a carbine has been on a square range with minimal movement, etc. So I’m hardly qualified to speak generally about things.

pretty decent discussion here. "mag high" is what I remember from the VTAC class.
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/179237-canting-your-rifle-point-of-aim-at-100-and-200m/

Knowing when and how it matters and how much it matters is too unique to say in the commercial gunhobby world. If you have a super-high-mounted LPVO with a 50 yard initial intersection shooting Barnes whateverthefuckiscoolrightnow through a 20" barrel trying to hit a 4" steel plate at 200 yards and I'm shooting wolf ammocangrabbag with an absolute cowitness 30mm aimpoint zeroed at 100 yards through a stock 6933 at a n A/C steel at 50 yards we're probably going to see variations in the deviation and I'm going to get away with a lot more latitude than you are.

FWIW, taking a VTAC class and using the VTAC barricades under Kyle's supervision you really get a window into the thought that went into these things. People think the horizontal and diagonal stripe ports are just there to fuck with you, but they're really TEACHING aids.

After taking Kyle's class, and then going back and shooting through the barricades again in matches and drills, I'd typically put the dot on the target and press, and if I didn't get a hit or hits I'd adjust mag-high and generally would then get a hit.

I *think* at one time I went full gunfag and even did some testing on this, canting rifles on bi-pods, but I lack the interest to go looking for it now.

[TGS]

Canting the gun can definitely affect POI relative to POA. Anyone that’s taken a Kyle Lamb class has tested this for themselves and learned some rules of thumb to address it.

7 years ago, anyway
https://www.tactical-life.com/lifestyle/military-and-police/viking-tactics-carbine-course/

FWIW, I'm not saying that canting the gun doesn't affect POI. I get that the sky is blue and earth is round. This seems like a self-evident thing to me, that canting the gun would change the POI.

I'm saying that I haven't seen it present itself as a problem when shooting guns without a FSB.

[rob_s]

FWIW, I'm not saying that canting the gun doesn't affect POI. I get that the sky is blue and earth is round. This seems like a self-evident thing to me, that canting the gun would change the POI.

I'm saying that I haven't seen it present itself as a problem when shooting guns without a FSB.

which is why I wasn't quoting you, I was quoting the other guy. ;)

it's not all about you. :p

[TGS]

Uh, well, sorry, I guess I missed where you quoted someone in that post.

[Suvorov]

FWIW, I'm not saying that canting the gun doesn't affect POI. I get that the sky is blue and earth is round. This seems like a self-evident thing to me, that canting the gun would change the POI.

I'm saying that I haven't seen it present itself as a problem when shooting guns without a FSB.

And that may very well be due to you having a more consistent shooting position than I have. I have noticed that I will typically cant the rifle when prone and cant it differently when shooting from other positions. In the extreme, it is quite noticeable at 100 yards. As I try to run a lower 1/3 co-witness, I find that by taking that extra moment to ensure the dot is above the front post I have more consistent results.