Compact and Lightweight, Scout-like, .308 Bolt Gun

[DacoRoman]

Hello y’all!

I’m looking for a rifle like the title reads.

I would like:
- to put a 1-5 or 6x vs a 1-8x or possibly a 2.5-10 scope on it.
- I would like to use 5-20 round mags, with extra points if it takes AR pattern mags
- be able to use it as a personal defense weapon in states like CA, on overlanding trips
- Use it for medium to large game out to 300 yards or so.
- Be able to shoot reduced IPSC silhouette steel (12x24”) out to 500 yards

The Ruger an Steyr Scouts are very intriguing but force you to mount a scope far forward, which I don’t want to do. And I would be willing to give up iron sights for a more traditional scope mounting system.

There is the Mossberg MVP Scout, which has a longer rail that comes all the way back and takes AR10 mags but I’m concerned about quality and action.

I like what’s going on here with this Tikka (video below), but the 10 round mags are $90 each, and I’d have to get some good gunsmith to cut down the barrel. But if pressed I'd go this type of route at this point.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x7N8hLI2yM

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[David S.]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21568-Scout-rifle-circa-2016

[RoyGBiv]

T3x for sale

http://www.apppicker.com/applists/24503/the-best-iphone-apps-for-craigslist

[TGS]

You can cut down the barrel yourself.

It's a trivial task if you have some basic files and buy the crowning tool from Brownells.

[SecondsCount]

I own a couple bolt rifles in 308, one is a 20" and the other a 26", heavy profile barrels, and without muzzle brakes. The 26" has shot 8" diameter circles at 550 yards, and the 20" has shot steel at 550, 844, and 1000 yards using handloads with a mildly loaded 155 Berger Hybrid. Targets varied between 8 and 16" square.

Inside of 600, a reduced torso target would not be difficult, as long as you can read the wind. 1MPH of full value wind at 600 yards will push a 175 Sierra Matchking 3 inches. 5MPH is around 15 inches which makes things more interesting. 147 grain ball is similar but may not be as inherently accurate. For reference, 6.5 Creedmoor is around 10" with the same parameters which is why it is gaining in popularity so fast. Sales of 308 rifles are way down because of this.

If you own an AR or a 223 bolt gun, a 77 SMK has similar ballistics so you can practice the wind reads with one of them.

I would prefer a 2.5-10x scope for this application. This morning I was shooting a full size silhouette at 545 yards and snapped a pic. It should give you an idea of the sight picture, looking through a 2.5-10x Leupold
42595

As for magazines, I prefer anything that takes the AICS pattern magazines. There are several manufacturers that make bottom metal which accept this magazine, and Magpul makes reasonably priced magazines for it. Currently the only production rifles that I know of that accept this magazine are from Remington, Bergera, and Accuracy International, but some rifles can be retrofitted to accept the magazines, and most of the aftermarket stocks with magazine style button metal will accept them.

[whomever]

Ruger makes the American that takes AICS mags. The polymer AICS mags by MDT and Magpul are 30 some bucks.

https://ruger.com/products/americanRiflePredator/specSheets/26974.html

W/ Magpul stock:
https://ruger.com/products/americanRifleHunter/specSheets/26993.html

[okie john]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?21568-Scout-rifle-circa-2016

Beat me to it.


Okie John

[Rick R]

Hello y’all!
(Clippage)
The Ruger an Steyr Scouts are very intriguing but force you to mount a scope far forward, which I don’t want to do. And I would be willing to give up iron sights for a more traditional scope mounting system.
(More clippage)
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Either the Steyr or Ruger GSR will allow you to mount a traditional scope. The Ruger requires that you remove the rear aperture sight to use the included Ruger rings but it’s only held on by one screw. The Steyr is considered the ideal but I like my GSR and it shoots sub inch 100 yard groups if I do my part.

[Bigghoss]

I'm seriously tempted by the Savage 110 scout, not the 11. Both guns use a standard pattern of holes for mounting scope rails and iron sights so if you prefer you could replace the forward rail and rear sight with a conventional rail and sights from a Hog Hunter model. Or maybe you could convert a Hog Hunter to take the 110 scout mags. I would be surprised if that was a difficult swap.

There's is an Australian company making 9-round mags for the .308 BLR but I don't know if they can be had in the US. And the mags are expensive AF.

I would pay absurd amounts of money for a 5.56 lever action that took AR15 mags. Or grab a Remington 7615 Police if they were reliable enough for their intended role.

[OlongJohnson]

I would research this and the several similar products to see how well they actually work:

https://www.redsnake-tactical.com/

[Lost River]

Tikka is the answer you seek.

The hard work and research has already been done.

In Spades.


http://i.imgur.com/WWCXC3c.jpg (https://imgur.com/WWCXC3c)

http://i.imgur.com/C4wmqRU.jpg (https://imgur.com/C4wmqRU)

http://i.imgur.com/UXUaFN7.jpg (https://imgur.com/UXUaFN7)

http://i.imgur.com/yHJVfCu.jpg (https://imgur.com/yHJVfCu)

[That Guy]

The Ruger an Steyr Scouts are very intriguing but force you to mount a scope far forward, which I don’t want to do. And I would be willing to give up iron sights for a more traditional scope mounting system.


As has been pointed out, neither rifle forces you to do anything of the sort. I am less familiar with the Steyr (too expensive for me, and no left hand version), but the Ruger comes with traditional scope rings in the box. (If you want to retain BUIS, that's when things get trickier with the Ruger.) Now if you want to use a forward mounted optic, these two rifles are the most common ones that enable it in stock form, which is why you tend to see these with those sort of optics on them. But they work just as well with traditional scopes, too.



As for magazines, I prefer anything that takes the AICS pattern magazines. There are several manufacturers that make bottom metal which accept this magazine, and Magpul makes reasonably priced magazines for it. Currently the only production rifles that I know of that accept this magazine are from Remington, Bergera, and Accuracy International

The Ruger Scout magazines are AICS pattern. Several folks have reported success using Magpul magazines.



There's is an Australian company making 9-round mags for the .308 BLR but I don't know if they can be had in the US. And the mags are expensive AF.


If it's the same company that makes 10 round T3 magazines, that guy will ship globally. The magazines are, as you said, extremely expensive though.

Over on the scout rifle forum, there has been some discussion on the difficulties of making a bolt action rifle run properly using a magazine meant for a semi-automatic rifle. Not sure how much of that was justification after the fact when the Ruger Scout was released and it did not use AR-10 magazines, though?

[Bigghoss]

If it's the same company that makes 10 round T3 magazines, that guy will ship globally. The magazines are, as you said, extremely expensive though.

https://www.luckythirteen.com.au/product/straight-fit-centre-fire-range/

[MK11]

As mentioned, the Ruger GSR gives you the option of either forward mounting or traditional mounting for an optic. The Ruger rings require removing the rear sight but you can put on an XS mount (https://www.amazon.com/XS-Sight-Systems-RU-5000R-N-Leverrail/dp/B00DJWFDQW)that offers both conventional scope placement as well as a back-up ghost ring.

I like mine a lot although I sometimes wish I had opted for the 18 inch barrel. Mine also won't consistently pop primers on 7.62x51. The polymer mags are better in every way than the gargantuan and rough feeding factory metal mags.

[1911Nut]

I own a .308 caliber Steyr Scout and currently have a Leupold Mark 4 1.5 - 5X20mm MR/T scope in Talley rings mounted in the traditional, over the action position. It works quite well. And so does a Leupold FX-II Scout IER 2.5x28mm scope mounted in the forward position.

[StraitR]

Hello y’all!

I’m looking for a rifle like the title reads.

I would like:
- to put a 1-5 or 6x vs a 1-8x or possibly a 2.5-10 scope on it.
- I would like to use 5-20 round mags, with extra points if it takes AR pattern mags
- be able to use it as a personal defense weapon in states like CA, on overlanding trips
- Use it for medium to large game out to 300 yards or so.
- Be able to shoot reduced IPSC silhouette steel (12x24”) out to 500 yards

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

I read the Practical Rifle circa 2016 thread forwards and backwards while making a purchase decision with similar criteria that you laid out. The only other thing on my list, and it was a "must have", is a factory threaded barrel for use with a suppressor. I ended up with the 20" Tikka T3x CTR in 308 (JRTXC316).

It does everything you're looking for out of the box without modification, but is a bit heavier than the Lite Compact. The Lite Compact is stated at 6.6lbs and the CTR is listed at 7.5lbs. That said, it has 10rd steel mags and comes with an optic rail. The rail is a must have, so those couple ounces will need to be added to the Lite Compact base weight, making the difference even smaller. The 10rd mags are something I can appreciate as well.

My CTR with Vortex Razor Gen II-E 1-6, Warne Maxima rings, Rhodesian Sling, stock pack, and SilencerCo Omega suppressor comes it at exactly 11lbs unloaded on our digital bathroom scale. It's no mountain gun, but it's absolutely perfect for what I need. I am, however, planning to sell the 21.5 ounce Razor 1-6 and replace it with something lighter.

https://live.staticflickr.com/4835/46681739462_299a382b67_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/7854/45818823045_a39d822290_c.jpg

[OlongJohnson]

Scope rings for Tikkas:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?25496-Tikka-Scope-Ring-Question&p=627816&viewfull=1#post627816

[DacoRoman]

I own a couple bolt rifles in 308, one is a 20" and the other a 26", heavy profile barrels, and without muzzle brakes. The 26" has shot 8" diameter circles at 550 yards, and the 20" has shot steel at 550, 844, and 1000 yards using handloads with a mildly loaded 155 Berger Hybrid. Targets varied between 8 and 16" square.

Inside of 600, a reduced torso target would not be difficult, as long as you can read the wind. 1MPH of full value wind at 600 yards will push a 175 Sierra Matchking 3 inches. 5MPH is around 15 inches which makes things more interesting. 147 grain ball is similar but may not be as inherently accurate. For reference, 6.5 Creedmoor is around 10" with the same parameters which is why it is gaining in popularity so fast. Sales of 308 rifles are way down because of this.

If you own an AR or a 223 bolt gun, a 77 SMK has similar ballistics so you can practice the wind reads with one of them.

I would prefer a 2.5-10x scope for this application. This morning I was shooting a full size silhouette at 545 yards and snapped a pic. It should give you an idea of the sight picture, looking through a 2.5-10x Leupold
42595

As for magazines, I prefer anything that takes the AICS pattern magazines. There are several manufacturers that make bottom metal which accept this magazine, and Magpul makes reasonably priced magazines for it. Currently the only production rifles that I know of that accept this magazine are from Remington, Bergera, and Accuracy International, but some rifles can be retrofitted to accept the magazines, and most of the aftermarket stocks with magazine style button metal will accept them.

Thanks for the information rich response, I greatly appreciate it.

Regarding shooting at range, what you wrote validates some of my own, but much more limited, experience regarding shooting at distance. My only reference point is from a John McPhee "heavy carbine" class where we shot from 100-600 yards.

I ran a 16" AR platform with a Burris XTRII 1-5X, with Magtech/CBC 77grain Mk262 clones. Reticle hold-overs where used exclusively. I used the scope in 5X exclusively, and on 12x24" targets I was hitting at 450 yards about 70% of the time at least. Probably 90% at 400 yards.

The 500 yard target was in shade in the tree line and I couldn't see the target well enough, including my bullet splashes, to get any hits on it. The 600 yard target was also a no go; it was exposed in sunlight, but I wasn't able to hit it. Two students let me shoot their AR's, one with a Leupold 1-8x, and another with a NF SHV 4-14X I think it was. I was able to hit the shaded 500 yard target repeatedly using 8x and 10x. I didn't have a chance to have a go at the 600 yard target with their guns unfortunately. Wind was pretty low the whole weekend, maybe 1-2mphs, and not much over 5mph I don't think.

But yeah, my conclusion was that for 500 yards I need at least 8X, and preferably 10X, especially if the target is in some kind of shade.

[DacoRoman]

Ruger makes the American that takes AICS mags. The polymer AICS mags by MDT and Magpul are 30 some bucks.

https://ruger.com/products/americanRiflePredator/specSheets/26974.html

W/ Magpul stock:
https://ruger.com/products/americanRifleHunter/specSheets/26993.html

Dang..those are pretty nice! And great news about the mags. I'll certainly be considering this Ruger.

[DacoRoman]

Either the Steyr or Ruger GSR will allow you to mount a traditional scope. The Ruger requires that you remove the rear aperture sight to use the included Ruger rings but it’s only held on by one screw. The Steyr is considered the ideal but I like my GSR and it shoots sub inch 100 yard groups if I do my part.

Ahh, thanks for the clarification. This may change things a bit. It's good, more choices to consider.

[HCM]

Either the Steyr or Ruger GSR will allow you to mount a traditional scope. The Ruger requires that you remove the rear aperture sight to use the included Ruger rings but it’s only held on by one screw. The Steyr is considered the ideal but I like my GSR and it shoots sub inch 100 yard groups if I do my part.

The Steyr does allow mounting a traditional scope but the mounting set up / spacing is less than optimal both in terms of eye relief and bolt knob clearance.

[DacoRoman]

I'm seriously tempted by the Savage 110 scout, not the 11. Both guns use a standard pattern of holes for mounting scope rails and iron sights so if you prefer you could replace the forward rail and rear sight with a conventional rail and sights from a Hog Hunter model. Or maybe you could convert a Hog Hunter to take the 110 scout mags. I would be surprised if that was a difficult swap.

There's is an Australian company making 9-round mags for the .308 BLR but I don't know if they can be had in the US. And the mags are expensive AF.

I would pay absurd amounts of money for a 5.56 lever action that took AR15 mags. Or grab a Remington 7615 Police if they were reliable enough for their intended role.

Wow, I didn't even realize Savage made a scout...but I'm a babe in the woods when it comes to bolt, and lever guns. Thanks for the Savage suggestions, will be checking them out.

But speaking of lever guns, that BLR is an absolute beast..a beautiful beast. It is almost too nice. I am used to Glocks and AR's which I slap around as needed ...that BLR is a work of art that I'd be afraid to manhandle. Actually, that stainless takedown looks pretty tough...I don't know, I could see that BLR being a total impulse buy if I see it in a store. It looks like one can get a scope base for it too. Too bad about no higher cap. mags that are easily obtained though.

I'm surprised that there aren't more modern lever guns that use mags though.

[DacoRoman]

I would research this and the several similar products to see how well they actually work:

https://www.redsnake-tactical.com/

Intriguing for sure, thank you very much for the lead!

[DacoRoman]

Tikka is the answer you seek.

The hard work and research has already been done.

In Spades.


http://i.imgur.com/WWCXC3c.jpg (https://imgur.com/WWCXC3c)

http://i.imgur.com/C4wmqRU.jpg (https://imgur.com/C4wmqRU)

http://i.imgur.com/UXUaFN7.jpg (https://imgur.com/UXUaFN7)

http://i.imgur.com/yHJVfCu.jpg (https://imgur.com/yHJVfCu)

Man, that is super legit! Thank you for your hard work!

I tell you something...that Tikka, it may be hard to beat.

[DacoRoman]

As has been pointed out, neither rifle forces you to do anything of the sort. I am less familiar with the Steyr (too expensive for me, and no left hand version), but the Ruger comes with traditional scope rings in the box. (If you want to retain BUIS, that's when things get trickier with the Ruger.) Now if you want to use a forward mounted optic, these two rifles are the most common ones that enable it in stock form, which is why you tend to see these with those sort of optics on them. But they work just as well with traditional scopes, too.



The Ruger Scout magazines are AICS pattern. Several folks have reported success using Magpul magazines.



If it's the same company that makes 10 round T3 magazines, that guy will ship globally. The magazines are, as you said, extremely expensive though.

Over on the scout rifle forum, there has been some discussion on the difficulties of making a bolt action rifle run properly using a magazine meant for a semi-automatic rifle. Not sure how much of that was justification after the fact when the Ruger Scout was released and it did not use AR-10 magazines, though?

Excellent info, thanks.

[DacoRoman]

https://www.luckythirteen.com.au/product/straight-fit-centre-fire-range/

they look quite good! but I see no prices advertised...I may email them at some point

[DacoRoman]

As mentioned, the Ruger GSR gives you the option of either forward mounting or traditional mounting for an optic. The Ruger rings require removing the rear sight but you can put on an XS mount (https://www.amazon.com/XS-Sight-Systems-RU-5000R-N-Leverrail/dp/B00DJWFDQW)that offers both conventional scope placement as well as a back-up ghost ring.

I like mine a lot although I sometimes wish I had opted for the 18 inch barrel. Mine also won't consistently pop primers on 7.62x51. The polymer mags are better in every way than the gargantuan and rough feeding factory metal mags.

That's some good info on the GSR thank you. That XS sight system seems like a no brainer. What makes you miss an 18" barrel if you don't mind me asking?

Is there a fix for the light primer strikes on the 7.62x51?

[DacoRoman]

I own a .308 caliber Steyr Scout and currently have a Leupold Mark 4 1.5 - 5X20mm MR/T scope in Talley rings mounted in the traditional, over the action position. It works quite well. And so does a Leupold FX-II Scout IER 2.5x28mm scope mounted in the forward position.

Well there you go. Thanks for the clarification. I'd love to see a pic of your set up if it isn't too inconvenient.

[DacoRoman]

I read the Practical Rifle circa 2016 thread forwards and backwards while making a purchase decision with similar criteria that you laid out. The only other thing on my list, and it was a "must have", is a factory threaded barrel for use with a suppressor. I ended up with the 20" Tikka T3x CTR in 308 (JRTXC316).

It does everything you're looking for out of the box without modification, but is a bit heavier than the Lite Compact. The Lite Compact is stated at 6.6lbs and the CTR is listed at 7.5lbs. That said, it has 10rd steel mags and comes with an optic rail. The rail is a must have, so those couple ounces will need to be added to the Lite Compact base weight, making the difference even smaller. The 10rd mags are something I can appreciate as well.

My CTR with Vortex Razor Gen II-E 1-6, Warne Maxima rings, Rhodesian Sling, stock pack, and SilencerCo Omega suppressor comes it at exactly 11lbs unloaded on our digital bathroom scale. It's no mountain gun, but it's absolutely perfect for what I need. I am, however, planning to sell the 21.5 ounce Razor 1-6 and replace it with something lighter.

https://live.staticflickr.com/4835/46681739462_299a382b67_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/7854/45818823045_a39d822290_c.jpg

That's a sweet set up for sure. 7.5lbs isn't too bad. The more I think about it, since it will be carried in the truck, a 20" barrel may be just fine. I was thinking of getting a barrel cut down to 16.5", which would also save weight. I also do have an AAC suppressor that I was planning on putting on it at times, hence the other reason to get a bbl cut down. Well, I don't know, that bears further consideration. I could of course just see how it works for me with the 20" bbl for awhile.

[DacoRoman]

Many thanks for the responses everyone.

I am leaning Tikka, but there are some other really good options too. I'm planning on buying at Christmas so I have some time to deliberate.

For a scope I'm thinking a NF 1-8x, the "budget" one, not the ATACR..or maybe the ATACR, depending on what I'll end up wanting to consign or trade, or look for a FFP 2.5-10X of some sort. Any good suggestions for a FFP 2.5-10x?

[TGS]

Many thanks for the responses everyone.

I am leaning Tikka, but there are some other really good options too. I'm planning on buying at Christmas so I have some time to deliberate.

For a scope I'm thinking a NF 1-8x, the "budget" one, not the ATACR..or maybe the ATACR, depending on what I'll end up wanting to consign or trade, or look for a FFP 2.5-10X of some sort. Any good suggestions for a FFP 2.5-10x?

Nothing ruins the handling of a lightweight rifle concept more than a big fucking heavy scope that is designed for big heavy marksman rifles. If you're to the point of cutting off 3.5" of barrel to save weight, then it makes zero sense to buy an optic with significant weight.

Unless you're going to obsess over Tacti-timmy details that aren't critical (or outright pointless, even) for the stated application and ruin the entire concept of the rifle, I'd seriously look at this: New Ultralight 2.5-10x32 Scope from SWFA (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38274-New-Ultralight-2-5-10x32-Scope-from-SWFA). Some other options here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37539-Innocuous-looking-carbine-for-a-petite-young-lady-to-tote-long-distances&p=904436&viewfull=1#post904436), but I think that's a hard option to beat.

It's 9oz. That's about 1/3rd to 1/2 the weight of common tactical/precision oriented scopes, such as the Nightforce NXS 2.5-10x42 "compact" rifle scope. IMO, respectfully, if you're going for a lightweight rifle concept for inside 300 yards on game, buy a lightweight scope that is suitable for game inside of 300 yards; If you want a precision rifle with a scope built for such, then buy a precision rifle and be honest/consistent what you're trying to build. As for the LPVO option, unless you're room clearing or doing some sort of super fast target acquisition within 15 yards, you don't need a LPVO. It doesn't make sense to put those on a bolt action hunting rifle regardless of them being all the heat these days to put on carbines for shooting terries.

[Bigghoss]

they look quite good! but I see no prices advertised...I may email them at some point

The Australian gun channel I saw them on said they ran something like $114AUD which converts to $95 American. If you can even get them here.

[Crews]

After having lots and lots of different bolt action rifles over the years, I’d really hate to see anyone end up with a factory action that wasn’t a Tikka. CTR has a really great barrel. Tikka factory trigger is money. But factory mags are not as reliable as AICS pattern. Plus, stock doesn’t have adjustability.

A Tikka barreled action dropped into a KRG Bravo chassis gets you a fine rifle. Upgrade to AICS compatible bottom metal. And you get the adjustability. I don’t think people put enough emphasis on setting the rifle up for proper fit.

Regarding barrel length and caliber: I don’t know what drives you towards 308 but if you haven’t you might take a look at 6.5 Creedmoor. Factory Hornady ammo is cheap, plentiful, and sinfully consistent. I had this caliber in a 16.5” barrel, it’ll make hits on smaller targets at longer distances than your requirements easily.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[1911Nut]

Well there you go. Thanks for the clarification. I'd love to see a pic of your set up if it isn't too inconvenient.

Here are a couple of photos of the Steyr Scout with the Leupold scope attached over the action, as requested.

4266642667

[Robinson]

But speaking of lever guns, that BLR is an absolute beast..a beautiful beast. It is almost too nice. I am used to Glocks and AR's which I slap around as needed ...that BLR is a work of art that I'd be afraid to manhandle. Actually, that stainless takedown looks pretty tough...I don't know, I could see that BLR being a total impulse buy if I see it in a store. It looks like one can get a scope base for it too. Too bad about no higher cap. mags that are easily obtained though.

I'm surprised that there aren't more modern lever guns that use mags though.

There is also the Henry Long Ranger. Similar to the BLR, not available in as many chamberings, has a less refined look to it but still looks good.

[MK11]

That's some good info on the GSR thank you. That XS sight system seems like a no brainer. What makes you miss an 18" barrel if you don't mind me asking?

Is there a fix for the light primer strikes on the 7.62x51?

Sorry for the late response.

On the 18 barrel, personal preference. 16 inch is about the limit you can take a .308 and still be a .308. The 16 is also LOUD and I’ve been shooting ARs with brakes my whole adult life.

I’ve read that the GSR might not be the best rendition of a scout rifle but it’s a nice update on the Enfield Jungle Carbine. Being in a ban state, that appeals.

[OlongJohnson]

But speaking of lever guns, that BLR is an absolute beast..a beautiful beast. ...that BLR is a work of art that I'd be afraid to manhandle. Actually, that stainless takedown looks pretty tough...I don't know, I could see that BLR being a total impulse buy if I see it in a store. It looks like one can get a scope base for it too. Too bad about no higher cap. mags that are easily obtained though.

I'm surprised that there aren't more modern lever guns that use mags though.

I've read discussion that there's a plastic gear in the BLR action that can strip out if the lever is run too hard, too much. Makes it less attractive for serious use.

Someone mentioned the Henry. I recall mentions of less than perfect reliability/durability.

I'd love to see someone figure out a lever-action receiver and bolt system that would work with AR uppers and mags in a way that made actual sense.



they look quite good! but I see no prices advertised...I may email them at some point

I emailed them through their web site. Aussie export laws are apparently fairly rigorous, and they can't currently export to U.S. I emailed a stateside contact who may be a good fit for taking on a project like that. Maybe in six months or a year something will come of it.

[Rick R]

Sorry for the late response.

On the 18 barrel, personal preference. 16 inch is about the limit you can take a .308 and still be a .308. The 16 is also LOUD and I’ve been shooting ARs with brakes my whole adult life.

I’ve read that the GSR might not be the best rendition of a scout rifle but it’s a nice update on the Enfield Jungle Carbine. Being in a ban state, that appeals.

FWIW I have an early 16.5” Ruger Scout and the barrel is actually 17.25”. It’s like they got the specs settled and someone said “let’s add a threaded section for a flash suppressor or other ;) muzzle device!”. And then they added 3/4” but didn’t change the specs.

[OlongJohnson]

At least if you move to a place where a threaded barrel is prohibited, you can just cut the threads off and roll on.

[HCM]

Another, albeit price option:

https://www.eurooptic.com/Christensen-Arms-Modern-Precision-Rifle-308-Win-16-1-10-Black-801-03001-00.aspx

Christensen Arms Modern Precision Rifle .308 Win 16" 1:10" Black 801-03001-00
SKU 801-03001-00-CA


Specifications
Caliber: .308 Win.
Weight: 6.9 lbs.
Rifle Overall Length: 36.75" Extended
28" Folded
Action: Bolt
Trigger: Match-Grade "Flat" Trigger
Rifle Barrel Length: 16"
Rifle Barrel Twist: 1:10"
Barrel Thread Pitch 5/8"-24
Rifle Stock: Black Folding Stock with Locking Hinge and Magnelock Technology
Scope Mount: 20 MOA Picatinny Rail
Magazines Included: AICS-Compatible Detachable
Iron Sights No
Caliber or Gauge: .308 Win
Handedness Right Hand
Item Condition New
Product Type Rifles
UPC

42689

[Trigger]

After having lots and lots of different bolt action rifles over the years, I’d really hate to see anyone end up with a factory action that wasn’t a Tikka. CTR has a really great barrel. Tikka factory trigger is money. But factory mags are not as reliable as AICS pattern. Plus, stock doesn’t have adjustability.

A Tikka barreled action dropped into a KRG Bravo chassis gets you a fine rifle. Upgrade to AICS compatible bottom metal. And you get the adjustability. I don’t think people put enough emphasis on setting the rifle up for proper fit.

Regarding barrel length and caliber: I don’t know what drives you towards 308 but if you haven’t you might take a look at 6.5 Creedmoor. Factory Hornady ammo is cheap, plentiful, and sinfully consistent. I had this caliber in a 16.5” barrel, it’ll make hits on smaller targets at longer distances than your requirements easily.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lots of good info here!

Having compared the action and triggers on the Tikka and the Steyr, I will take the Tikka every time. The best rifle to start with, and expand with. A 20” Tikka T3x CTR fits your requirements/desirements very well. Very accurate factory barrel, threaded muzzle, 10-round box magazine, reasonable 7.5lb weight.

If you decide to grow with the rifle, Tikkashooters.com sells trigger springs for the factory trigger, KRG sells the excellent Bravo chassis, KRG sells an outstanding replacement trigger, and Patriot Valley Arms sells prefit replacement barrels. You can go nuts refining the rifle and add switch barrels for varmints, big game, or long range precision.

I think the Tikka has the best capability for growth and aftermarket flexibility.

[Wheeler]

I've read discussion that there's a plastic gear in the BLR action that can strip out if the lever is run too hard, too much. Makes it less attractive for serious use.

Someone mentioned the Henry. I recall mentions of less than perfect reliability/durability.

I'd love to see someone figure out a lever-action receiver and bolt system that would work with AR uppers and mags in a way that made actual sense.




I emailed them through their web site. Aussie export laws are apparently fairly rigorous, and they can't currently export to U.S. I emailed a stateside contact who may be a good fit for taking on a project like that. Maybe in six months or a year something will come of it.

Could you source that comment about the plastic in the BLR? This is the first I've heard of it and I'd like to substantiate that before moving forward with a planned build on one.

[littlejerry]

Many thanks for the responses everyone.

I am leaning Tikka, but there are some other really good options too. I'm planning on buying at Christmas so I have some time to deliberate.

For a scope I'm thinking a NF 1-8x, the "budget" one, not the ATACR..or maybe the ATACR, depending on what I'll end up wanting to consign or trade, or look for a FFP 2.5-10X of some sort. Any good suggestions for a FFP 2.5-10x?

As an owner of a SFP 2.5-10, I don't understand what the purpose of a FFP 2.5-10 would be. SFP gives you a usable reticle at 2.5x that is also precise at 10x. If you need ranging or hold overs you'll be at 10x anyways.

The Bushnell LRHS and LRTS gets a lot of praise over on Snipers Hide. The HS has a thick ring that allows the reticle to be usable at low power. I believe it's offered in a 3-12 model.

[DacoRoman]

Nothing ruins the handling of a lightweight rifle concept more than a big fucking heavy scope that is designed for big heavy marksman rifles. If you're to the point of cutting off 3.5" of barrel to save weight, then it makes zero sense to buy an optic with significant weight.

Unless you're going to obsess over Tacti-timmy details that aren't critical (or outright pointless, even) for the stated application and ruin the entire concept of the rifle, I'd seriously look at this: New Ultralight 2.5-10x32 Scope from SWFA (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38274-New-Ultralight-2-5-10x32-Scope-from-SWFA). Some other options here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37539-Innocuous-looking-carbine-for-a-petite-young-lady-to-tote-long-distances&p=904436&viewfull=1#post904436), but I think that's a hard option to beat.

It's 9oz. That's about 1/3rd to 1/2 the weight of common tactical/precision oriented scopes, such as the Nightforce NXS 2.5-10x42 "compact" rifle scope. IMO, respectfully, if you're going for a lightweight rifle concept for inside 300 yards on game, buy a lightweight scope that is suitable for game inside of 300 yards; If you want a precision rifle with a scope built for such, then buy a precision rifle and be honest/consistent what you're trying to build. As for the LPVO option, unless you're room clearing or doing some sort of super fast target acquisition within 15 yards, you don't need a LPVO. It doesn't make sense to put those on a bolt action hunting rifle regardless of them being all the heat these days to put on carbines for shooting terries.


I'm considering cutting the barrel down in order to decrease overall length and increase ease of handling and increase compactness, not to save weight, with the weight savings being a mere fringe benefit.

It would be nice to stay 18 oz and below on the scope for sure. 9 oz is crazy light...does that thing even handle .308?

I guess what I want is a modified scout concept, with low enough magnification to allow use for personal defense from a charging animal of some sort within 25 yards, allow for game collection out to 300 yards, but also allow going out to 500 yards in a .308 for shooting steel (just as a personal perk).

As I keep thinking about it, and based on my limited but high yield experience in a rifle class where we shot out to 600 yards, a 1-8X scope would be a solid choice to meet this criteria. The NF 1-8 NX8 is 17 oz, which I think is very acceptable. The NF ATACR 1-8X is 21 oz which is starting to get up there but I also don't think is hideously heavy.

The Tikka T3x Lite Compact is listed at 5.9 pounds with a 20" barrel. So even keeping a 20" barrel and adding either of the NF 1-8x scopes above would still make for a pretty light system. The more I think about it the more I'd likely go with the NX8 instead of the ATACR.

The Steyr Scout is 6.6 lbs I see, so assuming that most scout-like rifles are around that weight, I think a scope that is around 17 oz. or so would be GTG with most scout rifles.

But great points for sure, worthy of contemplating, which I will. And I will most definitely take a look at that featherweight scope.

[TGS]

Well, just to echo someone else.....

...why 308? There's better cartridges for the purpose of this rifle.

I still don't get the draw for a LVPO on this rifle, but hey, it's yours to build.

[DacoRoman]

After having lots and lots of different bolt action rifles over the years, I’d really hate to see anyone end up with a factory action that wasn’t a Tikka. CTR has a really great barrel. Tikka factory trigger is money. But factory mags are not as reliable as AICS pattern. Plus, stock doesn’t have adjustability.

A Tikka barreled action dropped into a KRG Bravo chassis gets you a fine rifle. Upgrade to AICS compatible bottom metal. And you get the adjustability. I don’t think people put enough emphasis on setting the rifle up for proper fit.

Regarding barrel length and caliber: I don’t know what drives you towards 308 but if you haven’t you might take a look at 6.5 Creedmoor. Factory Hornady ammo is cheap, plentiful, and sinfully consistent. I had this caliber in a 16.5” barrel, it’ll make hits on smaller targets at longer distances than your requirements easily.


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Great points for me to consider thanks!

I've seen that there are some companies out there that sell AICS conversion bottoms for the CTR's. Any thoughts on going that route?

I like the idea of an optimized chassis, I guess I would be concerned about weight. I'll take a look at that they've got.

My interest in .308 is that I already have an LMT MWS in .308, it has a good track record, and that it is a commonly available round. I know close to nothing about the 6.5 Creedmoor except that everyone seems to love it. From a performance perspective it sounds like it is easily superior to the .308. I guess I'm not inclined to have to stock another caliber, and one that may not be as available as .308. I'll stew on the concept of possibly going with the 6.5, but familiarity and ease of available ammo pushes me toward the conservative choice :)

[DacoRoman]

Here are a couple of photos of the Steyr Scout with the Leupold scope attached over the action, as requested.

4266642667

Thank you much!

Very nice set up indeed! And I just looked it up and these are a lot more economical to buy then what I remember! It looks like I could get one for around 1599-1699.

Hmm...at this point I'm starting to think that it may either be the Tikka or the Steyr.

I don't see any 10 round mag options for the Steyr Scout, are there any?

[DacoRoman]

Sorry for the late response.

On the 18 barrel, personal preference. 16 inch is about the limit you can take a .308 and still be a .308. The 16 is also LOUD and I’ve been shooting ARs with brakes my whole adult life.

I’ve read that the GSR might not be the best rendition of a scout rifle but it’s a nice update on the Enfield Jungle Carbine. Being in a ban state, that appeals.

No worries!

Fair enough, makes total sense.

Actually, I had written that at this point I'm thinking Tikka T3X lite compact or Steyr Scout, but the GSR is also in there for consideration.

Yeah I've been geeking out over the Enfield Jungle Carbine for decades.

[DacoRoman]

I've read discussion that there's a plastic gear in the BLR action that can strip out if the lever is run too hard, too much. Makes it less attractive for serious use.

Someone mentioned the Henry. I recall mentions of less than perfect reliability/durability.

I'd love to see someone figure out a lever-action receiver and bolt system that would work with AR uppers and mags in a way that made actual sense.




I emailed them through their web site. Aussie export laws are apparently fairly rigorous, and they can't currently export to U.S. I emailed a stateside contact who may be a good fit for taking on a project like that. Maybe in six months or a year something will come of it.


Very interesting info! This is the kind of stuff that one needs to find out and know about. Bears further looking into for sure. Thanks for the warning.

I certainly seems that there is interest for a "tactical" cowboy Lever gun that is rock solid and modernized, and that takes mags...and it might as well be AR style mags. Having one in 6.8 SPC would be awesome, but I'll take 5.56 and 300 black out, .308, whatever!

EDIT: oh I forgot, thank you for emailing them and getting that info

[DacoRoman]

At least if you move to a place where a threaded barrel is prohibited, you can just cut the threads off and roll on.

yeah good point..and come think of it, going with a slightly longer barrel in case you have to cut more off may not be a bad idea either..

[DacoRoman]

FWIW I have an early 16.5” Ruger Scout and the barrel is actually 17.25”. It’s like they got the specs settled and someone said “let’s add a threaded section for a flash suppressor or other ;) muzzle device!”. And then they added 3/4” but didn’t change the specs.

Good to know that insider info regarding the "extra" barrel length! Thanks!

[DacoRoman]

Another, albeit price option:

https://www.eurooptic.com/Christensen-Arms-Modern-Precision-Rifle-308-Win-16-1-10-Black-801-03001-00.aspx

Christensen Arms Modern Precision Rifle .308 Win 16" 1:10" Black 801-03001-00
SKU 801-03001-00-CA



42689

wow, intriguing! thanks for the kindly tip

so where are we with the evil features issue, if it is a bolt gun then we don't have start counting, is that right? i.e. the pistol grip, etc..although again we are putting muzzle breaks on, not flash hiders, so basically that's only 2 evil features: pistol grip and detachable mag for this impressive looking beast

[DacoRoman]

Lots of good info here!

Having compared the action and triggers on the Tikka and the Steyr, I will take the Tikka every time. The best rifle to start with, and expand with. A 20” Tikka T3x CTR fits your requirements/desirements very well. Very accurate factory barrel, threaded muzzle, 10-round box magazine, reasonable 7.5lb weight.

If you decide to grow with the rifle, Tikkashooters.com sells trigger springs for the factory trigger, KRG sells the excellent Bravo chassis, KRG sells an outstanding replacement trigger, and Patriot Valley Arms sells prefit replacement barrels. You can go nuts refining the rifle and add switch barrels for varmints, big game, or long range precision.

I think the Tikka has the best capability for growth and aftermarket flexibility.

You make a strong argument counselor!

Do you have any thoughts regarding the T3X Lite Compact and the CTR? We go from 5.9lbs to 7.5lbs but it seems the Tactical comes with the 10 round mag, which apparently is like at least 100 bucks (!), better trigger?, and more built up stock with a cheek piece, etc.

[HCM]

wow, intriguing! thanks for the kindly tip

so where are we with the evil features issue, if it is a bolt gun then we don't have start counting, is that right? i.e. the pistol grip, etc..although again we are putting muzzle breaks on, not flash hiders, so basically that's only 2 evil features: pistol grip and detachable mag for this impressive looking beast

Not a semi auto. All that is irrelevant.

On another note have you ever dealt with evil ? Inanimate objects aren’t evil, they are merely things.

[DacoRoman]

As an owner of a SFP 2.5-10, I don't understand what the purpose of a FFP 2.5-10 would be. SFP gives you a usable reticle at 2.5x that is also precise at 10x. If you need ranging or hold overs you'll be at 10x anyways.

The Bushnell LRHS and LRTS gets a lot of praise over on Snipers Hide. The HS has a thick ring that allows the reticle to be usable at low power. I believe it's offered in a 3-12 model.

Yeah I understand what you are saying.

In that magnification range I could totally see either being at 2.5 for out to 100-200 (possibly a bit more), and then might as well go to 10X for everything beyond, especially beyond 300 yards.

I guess FFP with its consistent reticle sub-tensions would be nice in case you are shooting at 100-400 yards and want to go with 5X for faster multiple target acquisition and better situational awareness and not getting lost in the scope as much?

Last time I did a timed run on targets from 100-450 I shot it at 5X, but then again 5X was my maximum available magnification (SFP scope).

In any case SFP in 2.5-10X would not be a deal breaker at all, you are right.

[DacoRoman]

Not a semi auto. All that is irrelevant.

On another note have you ever dealt with evil ? Inanimate objects aren’t evil, they are merely things.

not a semi-auto, check

regarding your second comment, ya think? ;)

[OlongJohnson]

Could you source that comment about the plastic in the BLR? This is the first I've heard of it and I'd like to substantiate that before moving forward with a planned build on one.

Thanks for pushing me for the clarification. I had read that at some point, and whoever posted it then didn't get jumped on for being wrong. Googling now, lots of guys are getting jumped on for being wrong when they say something about a "plastic gear," but it seems to be a matter of clarification/precision of language. A plastic bushing that can wear and lead to sufficient lash in the geartrain to have problems, or something along those lines. At least, this post and further down in the same thread seems to be the most detailed and clear discussion from first-hand knowledge that I can readily find:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/398776/re-browning-lever-action#Post398776

Should give you some ideas of what to search on.

ETA: Found this cutaway pic that was apparently posted on Browning's site at some point. The issue as I understand it is that when stuff wears, the depth of engagement between the fine teeth on the pinion gear and the fine teeth on the lever loop becomes poorly controlled, and they can jam or skip under load. Seems like something that could be upgraded or fine-tuned relatively easily, although perhaps not without some tradeoffs. Or maybe just keep the wear parts changed out on a sufficiently frequent schedule.

42733

You'll find this guy mentioned as a BLR trigger guru. Probably worth calling him to get a more reliable opinion than some idiot on the internet can provide: http://www.neiljones.com/html/gunsmithing.html

[DacoRoman]

Well, just to echo someone else.....

...why 308? There's better cartridges for the purpose of this rifle.

I still don't get the draw for a LVPO on this rifle, but hey, it's yours to build.

Why .308. Well that round has such a proven track record and history for being a sort of gold standard for shooting out to 600-800 yards (and even further out with the right skill and equipment - for my skills and planned rifle, 500-600 yards would good enough) that I wouldn't even begin to do it justice with an argument apologizing for it. It speaks for itself I think, especially in the type of rifle I'm considering. Lest we forget that Jeff Cooper himself decided on a .308 for his scout rifle. Maybe he was wrong, but I certainly won't be the one proving him wrong, because I don't think I could.

So the question ought to really be, why not the .308? Especially given its ubiquitousness and relative low cost. What caliber are you thinking would be a better choice?

And regarding the LPVO. What other magnification would allow you to shoot at a charging bear from 25 yards in, and also allow you shoot a reduced IPSC torso at 500 yards from the prone? I think 1-8X is pretty hard to beat. The 2.5-10X would be better at 500 yards on 10X, but the 2.5X would be a lot worse for the charging bear...especially with a bolt gun. EDIT: especially since you're likely to only get one shot off, maybe two, depending on how fast the bear is coming at you, which I'd much rather take at 1X.

[DacoRoman]

Thanks for pushing me for the clarification. I had read that at some point, and whoever posted it then didn't get jumped on for being wrong. Googling now, lots of guys are getting jumped on for being wrong when they say something about a "plastic gear," but it seems to be a matter of clarification/precision of language. A plastic bushing that can wear and lead to sufficient lash in the geartrain to have problems, or something along those lines. At least, this post and further down in the same thread seems to be the most detailed and clear discussion from first-hand knowledge that I can readily find:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/398776/re-browning-lever-action#Post398776

Should give you some ideas of what to search on.

ETA: Found this cutaway pic that was apparently posted on Browning's site at some point. The issue as I understand it is that when stuff wears, the depth of engagement between the fine teeth on the pinion gear and the fine teeth on the lever loop becomes poorly controlled, and they can jam or skip under load. Seems like something that could be upgraded or fine-tuned relatively easily, although perhaps not without some tradeoffs. Or maybe just keep the wear parts changed out on a sufficiently frequent schedule.

42733

Good stuff, thanks for adding this.

You'll find this guy mentioned as a BLR trigger guru. Probably worth calling him to get a more reliable opinion than some idiot on the internet can provide: http://www.neiljones.com/html/gunsmithing.html

[TGS]

Why .308. Well that round has such a proven track record and history for being a sort of gold standard for shooting out to 600-800 yards (and even further out with the right skill and equipment - for my skills and planned rifle, 500-600 yards would good enough) that I wouldn't even begin to do it justice with an argument apologizing for it. It speaks for itself I think, especially in the type of rifle I'm considering. Lest we forget that Jeff Cooper himself decided on a .308 for his scout rifle. Maybe he was wrong, but I certainly won't be the one proving him wrong, because I don't think I could.

So the question ought to really be, why not the .308? Especially given its ubiquitousness and relative low cost. What caliber are you thinking would be a better choice?

And regarding the LPVO. What other magnification would allow you to shoot at a charging bear from 25 yards in, and also allow you shoot a reduced IPSC torso at 500 yards from the prone? I think 1-8X is pretty hard to beat. The 2.5-10X would be better at 500 yards on 10X, but the 2.5X would be a lot worse for the charging bear...especially with a bolt gun. EDIT: especially since you're likely to only get one shot off, maybe two, depending on how fast the bear is coming at you, which I'd much rather take at 1X.

Jeff Cooper wasn't wrong, but that Scout Rifle concept of his was also what......50-60 years ago?

If you're set on the Tikka T3 Compact Lite, they have that rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor. Lower recoil, flatter trajectory, higher sectional density. It's better in virtually every way. The 308 isn't ubiquitous or famous because of its merit, but rather because a bunch of dumbasses in the 50s who paid lip-service to the intermediate cartridge concept but in reality wanted a full power .30" rifle round and forced it on NATO when everyone knew back then there were better options as well. It's a mediocre cartridge, and for shooting 600-800 yards is not the gold standard. It can do it, but it in no way excels at it compared to a number of other cartridges these days.

As for cost, yeah the average cost for 308 is about a quarter lower per round than 6.5 Creedmoor considering all the military FMJ service ammo out there.....but so what? Are you running an entry carbine, F/A sear host, or a bolt action rifle? Concentrating on the cost of the ammo for a bolt action rifle (especially one with such particular goals as yours) is penny-wise/pound foolish, especially when you consider that the premium cartridges are about the same. Premium cartridges for 6.5 Creedmoor go from $.70-1.45, about the same for premium 308. You're not going to be blasting away tons of ammo through the gun, buy the better round for the mission.

As for LPVO, okay, makes sense, but that charging bear scenario wasn't in your otherwise clearly stated goals for the rifle. FWIW, that's going to require carrying the rifle at all times in 1x, instead of in the power you're actually using for hunting.

[1911Nut]

Thank you much!

Very nice set up indeed! And I just looked it up and these are a lot more economical to buy then what I remember! It looks like I could get one for around 1599-1699.

Hmm...at this point I'm starting to think that it may either be the Tikka or the Steyr.

I don't see any 10 round mag options for the Steyr Scout, are there any?

I have zero experience with them, but at one time, a "Steyr SBS Pro Hunter/Scout 10 Round .308 Winchester Magazine" was available. Currently, they are shown as being for sale on the "Cheaper than Dirt" website.

I would be concerned that the handling qualities (one of it's most desirable attributes) of the Steyr Scout might be compromised with use of this magazine, but that's just me.

In 2011, I participated in a "Scout Rifle" class at Gunsite in Paulden, AZ

During that class, I got through it just fine using three 5-round Steyr Scout magazines. (One in the rifle magazine well, one in the magazine storage receptacle in the buttstock, and one in a magazine carrier on my belt).

[imp1295]

I too read the scout rifle thread back and forth. Had similar requirements as you and settled on a 308, Model 70 featherweight compact, with a Leupold VX-5, 1-5.

It’s a great rifle. I also own a T3X in 7-08, I wanted to have the ability to load without the mag. This was mainly influenced by experience of others at a Randy Cain class. I confirmed those observations on my own between the two rifles. Not an issue for ME in a hung situation, but may matter in other applications.

Good luck!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[GJM]

Another, albeit price option:

https://www.eurooptic.com/Christensen-Arms-Modern-Precision-Rifle-308-Win-16-1-10-Black-801-03001-00.aspx

Christensen Arms Modern Precision Rifle .308 Win 16" 1:10" Black 801-03001-00
SKU 801-03001-00-CA



42689

I was intrigued by this rifle. Reading threads, there is apparently some angst over C Arms customer service, and a pretty good chance the rifle wil need a trip back. The action felt rough, but that apparently improves with use. A buddy used one goat hunting on Kodiak, and kept having the magazine fall out hiking in rough terrain. That last issue seemed like a big deal to me.

[DacoRoman]

Jeff Cooper wasn't wrong, but that Scout Rifle concept of his was also what......50-60 years ago?

If you're set on the Tikka T3 Compact Lite, they have that rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor. Lower recoil, flatter trajectory, higher sectional density. It's better in virtually every way. The 308 isn't ubiquitous or famous because of its merit, but rather because a bunch of dumbasses in the 50s who paid lip-service to the intermediate cartridge concept but in reality wanted a full power .30" rifle round and forced it on NATO when everyone knew back then there were better options as well. It's a mediocre cartridge, and for shooting 600-800 yards is not the gold standard. It can do it, but it in no way excels at it compared to a number of other cartridges these days.

As for cost, yeah the average cost for 308 is about a quarter lower per round than 6.5 Creedmoor considering all the military FMJ service ammo out there.....but so what? Are you running an entry carbine, F/A sear host, or a bolt action rifle? Concentrating on the cost of the ammo for a bolt action rifle (especially one with such particular goals as yours) is penny-wise/pound foolish, especially when you consider that the premium cartridges are about the same. Premium cartridges for 6.5 Creedmoor go from $.70-1.45, about the same for premium 308. You're not going to be blasting away tons of ammo through the gun, buy the better round for the mission.

As for LPVO, okay, makes sense, but that charging bear scenario wasn't in your otherwise clearly stated goals for the rifle. FWIW, that's going to require carrying the rifle at all times in 1x, instead of in the power you're actually using for hunting.

Good, albeit a bit cranky ;), but good counterpoint.

In my mind 6.5C really gave the most benefits when considering, say 400-1200yard shooting.

However I've just done some reading up on it, and it does appear that it is better pretty much at any range in comparison to .308W.

However I will say that from what I'm reading, the difference is still there, but not nearly as significant, when considering shooting out to 500-600 yards.

About the only negative things I read about the 6.5C is that it will wear barrels out faster than .308, not as big a deal in the world of the lower volume of fire bolt guns, I'm thinking. And that .308 is still cheaper and more ubiquitous, as we already knew.

Now, my issue is still one of convenience and practicality. I already have an LMT MWS in .308. I already have a nice amount of IMI 175gr match grade ammo for the LMT that I could happily use in any new .308 bolt gun I would get. The ability to also source and shoot bulk ammo is also a big plus for me.

I am not sure that the modest improvement in ballistics to 500-600 yards that I'd get with a Creedmoor is worth the downgrade in practicality for me, at least at this point.
If I didn't have another .308, I would be tempted to consider a Creedmoor, for sure.

I may still change my mind, as my scout-like rifle will be a relatively low volume of fire weapon for me, and it wouldn't be that hard to stock some 6.5C ammo for my intended use. However it is nice to be able to use the same ammo in two different arms for sure, at least it is for me, as I'm a practical SOB, to a fault maybe.

So, I'll likely go with .308, and you know what, if I get the Creedmoor bug, I could always re-barrel. I could re-barrel for 6.5C even with my MWS. I could get a stainless match grade 6.5C LMT barrel for it that I could change myself. I'm not sure about a Tikka or the Steyr, how easy or lack thereof it is to re-barrel one of those, but I can't imagine that it would be that hard.

Anyway, great points, they certainly helped crystallize my thoughts.

If anyone else has thoughts on .308 vs 6.5C, send it!

[DacoRoman]

I have zero experience with them, but at one time, a "Steyr SBS Pro Hunter/Scout 10 Round .308 Winchester Magazine" was available. Currently, they are shown as being for sale on the "Cheaper than Dirt" website.

I would be concerned that the handling qualities (one of it's most desirable attributes) of the Steyr Scout might be compromised with use of this magazine, but that's just me.

In 2011, I participated in a "Scout Rifle" class at Gunsite in Paulden, AZ

During that class, I got through it just fine using three 5-round Steyr Scout magazines. (One in the rifle magazine well, one in the magazine storage receptacle in the buttstock, and one in a magazine carrier on my belt).

That Steyr does look really slick and handy as is for sure. The 5 round mag isn't a deal breaker for me, especially with the cool feature of the extra mag in the stock. I probably wouldn't dick around with magazine adapters and such if I went with it.

Did you do a lot of top loading in that class? I am not sure if the Tikka CTR top loads or not, I need to look into this.

What other type of scout rifles where there in the class, and how did they do? How did the students have their scopes mounted, scout like, or back on the receiver?

Seeing as how I'm in AZ I definitely would love to take that Scout Rifle class..but first I need a Scout-like rifle.

[DacoRoman]

I too read the scout rifle thread back and forth. Had similar requirements as you and settled on a 308, Model 70 featherweight compact, with a Leupold VX-5, 1-5.

It’s a great rifle. I also own a T3X in 7-08, I wanted to have the ability to load without the mag. This was mainly influenced by experience of others at a Randy Cain class. I confirmed those observations on my own between the two rifles. Not an issue for ME in a hung situation, but may matter in other applications.

Good luck!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Do you mean single round top loading? The T3X can't single round top load? I'm wondering if the Tikka CTR can. That is a great point to bring up.

EDIT: I'm totally going to check out the Model 70 FW compact; what barrel length?

[HCM]

I was intrigued by this rifle. Reading threads, there is apparently some angst over C Arms customer service, and a pretty good chance the rifle wil need a trip back. The action felt rough, but that apparently improves with use. A buddy used one goat hunting on Kodiak, and kept having the magazine fall out hiking in rough terrain. That last issue seemed like a big deal to me.

I’ve heard they are hit or miss in terms of QC.

Plus with the light weight I would rather have one in 6.5C.

[1911Nut]

That Steyr does look really slick and handy as is for sure. The 5 round mag isn't a deal breaker for me, especially with the cool feature of the extra mag in the stock. I probably wouldn't dick around with magazine adapters and such if I went with it.

Did you do a lot of top loading in that class? I am not sure if the Tikka CTR top loads or not, I need to look into this.

What other type of scout rifles where there in the class, and how did they do? How did the students have their scopes mounted, scout like, or back on the receiver?

Seeing as how I'm in AZ I definitely would love to take that Scout Rifle class..but first I need a Scout-like rifle.

I don't recall any prescribed top loading in that class, but it's been a while. I do remember using top loading ("shoot one, load one") technique when we shot the "Scrambler" drill, with quite a bit of shooting and movement between individual shots.

I looked back in my old records and found an AAR I submitted to another forum that I used to participate in regularly. Here it is:




I recently returned from the “Scout Rifle Class” conducted at Gunsite on April 25-27. While I have obtained previous training at Gunsite and other locations with the pistol, shotgun, and carbine, this was my very first training of any kind with a rifle.

I thought I would share my experiences to the best of my recollection with the list. Most of the list members have far more rifle experience than I will undoubtedly ever acquire for the balance of my life, so bear with me (or hit the “Delete” key) if the report is boring, too low-level, or redundant.

This was the first rifle class ever conducted at Gunsite that was conducted exclusively for the “scout” configuration rifle. The class was three days in duration and there were no grades provided. Students who successfully completed the course were provided with a “Certificate of Training”, exactly as was done in the first (and I believe only) “Pistol Tune Up” class Gunsite conducted in May 2009, that I also attended.

Instructors were Il Ling New (Rangemaster) and Mario Marchman.

There were eight shooters from seven states enrolled in the class. States represented were: Alaska, California, Oregon, Arizona, New Mexico, Kansas, and Ohio. In addition to me, there was only one additional student in attendance who had no previous rifle training experience. Several of the shooters had completed 270 Rifle, Precision Rifle, Hunter Prep (and perhaps additional) classes at Gunsite, and all had trained previously under the tutelage of Il Ling. Three or four of the shooters were what I choose to call “serious” riflemen, with extensive experience. One gentleman had never owned a rifle in his life until he purchased the Scout Rifle approximately six months before the class.

Firearms were:
4 Steyr Scouts all in caliber .308 Winchester
1 Savage Scout in caliber .308 Winchester
1 Ruger Scout in caliber .308 Winchester
1 custom-built Winchester Model 70 Scout in caliber .308 Winchester
1 Browning BLR Scout in caliber .450 Marlin

The weather turned out to be a challenge at times, but did not interfere with the learning experience or the fun. While temperatures were pleasant (low 40’s in the morning and high 60’s in the afternoon), we experienced quite windy conditions on Monday and Tuesday, especially Tuesday, when the wind seldom slowed below 25 MPH and was frequently gusting to 40 or more MPH. A couple of times, wind gusts snapped the wooden support legs off the targets and they all had to be rebuilt. This contributed to a renewed interest (at least on my part) in the proper use of the Ching sling when shooting from prone and intermediate positions.

As has always been my experience at Gunsite, safety was of the utmost importance and was constantly stressed and enforced by Il Ling and Mario. There were no major issues that occurred to my knowledge, and the safety reminder that I heard repeated most often was when Il Ling and Mario reminded students to keep their rifles slung properly.

Since I was doing my best to maximize my learning experience, I didn’t keep a journal of events in the order they transpired, so as I describe some of the class activities, they will not appear in the order they occurred.

The first morning we spent classroom time reviewing equipment, carry methods, shooting basics, safety rules, and some shooting basics.

A significant amount of time was spent shooting from field positions at 100 and 200 yards to confirm zero. Two shooters had a few problems, but they were corrected with some attention. The Ruger Scout shooter’s issue turned out to be weapon-related, and I will touch on that subject in a bit. Most everyone else seemed to make only minor adjustments to their optics, if any. I personally cranked in one MOA to the left and one MOA “up” on my Leupold Scout Scope after shooting at 200 yards.

We spent time shooting at 25 to 50 yards from standing position, with shooter movement built into the exercises. We began with single shots on target, then moved to two shots, then three, from various positions. At times, single targets were engaged, and at time two targets were engaged. We learned to engage targets from slung position, from “high ready” position, and from “low ready” position. I had always carried a rifle when hunting in the field in the “American Carry” position, but quickly adapted to the “European Carry”, as I found it easiest to acquire and dismount, and felt I had better control of the rifle from that position.

A bit of time was spent reviewing movement while maintaining the fighting stance and balance, as I am familiar with from pistol, shotgun, and carbine training. Several drills were conducted on moving targets, as well as steel pepper popper targets at ranges varying from 25 to 50 yards on the movers and out to 300 yards on the steel targets. All the shooters were able to consistently achieve “vital zone” hits on the targets out to 200 yards, and almost everyone could keep all their shots on the target (although not necessarily in the “vital zone”) when the range was increased to 300 yards. Personally, I was surprised at my ability to achieve this level of accuracy with a 2.5X long eye relief scope. Others were probably not so surprised at their shooting abilities. Students were all encouraged to shoot with both eyes open so they could take advantage of the low magnification and extended eye relief afforded by the Scout design.

The most enjoyable part of the course for me (and I think for most are all of the other students) was shooting the “Scrambler”. We all shot it on Tuesday and again on Wednesday. It was on the Wednesday run on the “Scrambler” that I managed to outsmart myself when it came to tactics. I decided that since I was not going to set any speed records on the course that I would “shoot one, load one”, performing the load between shooting stations. I loaded up with six rounds and popped the magazine in the Scout down to the second detent to allow me to facilitate this strategy.

I then proceeded to shoot the first target, run the bolt, forget to load one and dropped the firing pin on an empty chamber at the next shooting station. At which point I opened the bolt, single loaded a round, shot the second target, moved to the next shooting position while again running the bolt without single loading a round of ammunition so I was met with a second “click” at the next shooting station. This time I regained my composure, performed a “slap, rack, bang” malfunction drill and proceeded through the remainder of the drill with no further drama. Quite embarrassing, and a lesson I am certain I will not forget. Glad it happened on the “Scrambler” at Gunsite instead of during a situation in which something was shooting back at me or when a 180 class mule deer was providing me with an opportunity to shoot.

To the best of my knowledge, here are the issues that were experienced with the rifles in this class:

The shooter of the BLR had quite a bit of trouble achieving zero when we first got started, but eventually was able to get things lined out. I am not certain what the issue was, but it seemed to take a bit of time to get ironed out. I think this shooter also had a bit of minor problem with the trigger mechanism, but I am not certain. As a side note, this shooter was shooting 325 grain Hornady bullets in handloads. He used two different power levels of ammo. He said his light loads were getting 1900 FPS and his heavy loads were achieving 2100 FPS. He was an excellent shooter.

The Savage Scout completely quit working just before lunch on the second day (would not fire). The shooter took it to the gunsmith during lunch where they found that the sear engagement was incorrect. Not certain of the details. He had no more problems with that rifle.

One Steyr Scout experienced a separated case head on a round of reloaded ammunition brought by the shooter. No issue with the rifle, and the rifle was returned to service immediately after the piece of separated brass was removed from the chamber.

The Ruger Scout had a loose scope mounting rail – found the mounting screws only finger tight. Obviously, the shooter had a lot of problem getting zero until this issue was identified and corrected. The Ruger shooter also (in my opinion) experienced a great bit of difficulty in achieving good sling position when assuming field shooting positions due to that huge extended Ruger magazine. It just seemed to be in the way during many of the exercises. The shooter indicated that he liked his Ruger Frontier without the detachable magazine better than he liked his Scout. As another personal observation, the Ruger Scout ejected brass farther than any other magazine fed bolt action rifle I have ever personally witnessed. And with authority. I am aware of this because there were several occasions when empty cases from this rifle bounced off my ear, head, and rifle, as I was shooting immediately to the right of the Ruger Scout shooter.

One of the Steyr Scout rifles would not allow the operator to perform the “shoot one, load one” drill. The instructors attempted the same with this particular rifle, and the rifle simply would not allow one to drop a round in and close the bolt. The ammo was changed and different methodologies were applied for several minutes, but it simply would not feed a singly loaded round. The shooter took this rifle to the gunsmith during lunch break on the second day, and they were unable to correct this condition. When I inquired about what was discussed during the gunsmith visit, the shooter told me that the gunsmith had told him that it was simply a matter of the way the barrel was pressed into the action, and that “some work and some don’t” when attempting to load single rounds. I would imagine this could be corrected, but don’t know what the shooter’s plans are to address the issue.

Three of the Steyr Scout rifles were the Cooper Commemorative models (I am not certain I have that terminology exactly correct). My Steyr was the only one of that brand that was not the Commemorative version. During a break, all four Steyr rifles happened to be placed alongside each other in the rack. It was noted that the barrels on the three Commemorative rifles were significantly heavier than the barrel on my Steyr. Mario Marchman had a Steyr Scout in .376 in his vehicle and brought it out. His rifle is a few years old and mine is four years old. The .376 Steyr had a light barrel profile similar to mine. The three Commemorative Steyr rifles had all been purchased in the past 6-8 months and had the identical, heavier profile. At the end of the class, we were able to visit Mrs. Cooper in her home, and during our tour of the armory, I noted one of the original Cooper Commemorative rifles. I checked the barrel profile on that rifle and it was the lightweight profile exactly the same as my rifle. This may be old news to many on the list, but I was previously unaware that there were differences in barrel weights/profiles among the Scout rifles.

Following the awarding of our certificates on the third day of training, we (as previously mentioned) were all able to spend almost an hour visiting Mrs. Cooper in her home and enjoyed some of her homemade Texas brownies, coffee, tea, and lemonade. As always, she was the perfect and most gracious hostess. What a lovely lady.

I can’t say enough about Il Ling and Mario. Terrific instructors, highly knowledgeable, very engaging, and fun to be around.

During the classroom time at the end of the course, Il Ling asked the students for feedback regarding the class they had just completed. Almost everyone was in favor of expanding the class from a 3-day to a 5-day curriculum, and everyone had positive feedback. I personally added a comment that I wanted to share with Il Ling and Mario. I noted that during the entire three day class that Il Ling and Mario had consistently linked the Scout rifle education to Colonel Cooper. They had perpetuated his memory and contribution to rifle craft throughout their class, and I personally felt that was very, very important. I told them so and thanked them for that. They seemed to greatly appreciate the comment, and in fact Il Ling took me aside later while we were at Mrs. Cooper’s home and thanked me for the observation. She indicated that she planned to share the comment with Mrs. Cooper. Made my day.

I learned a lot in three days and know that I hardly scratched the surface. I personally struggled with ammo management and magazine changes throughout the class as I tried to learn how to accomplish these tasks using my strong hand. This was a real challenge for me, since I am so used to doing these tasks with the support hand when shooting a pistol, shotgun, or AR. I fully understand the reasons for the difference when handling the Scout, but certainly never mastered ammo management during class. I did, however, perform some pretty spectacular “magazine juggling” feats throughout the three days! Practice, practice, practice! A gut feeling tells me that some of the other shooters struggled with learning to consistently leave their cheek welded to the stock as they worked the rifle bolt. I don’t recall being called on this, but I can certainly tell you I heard those remarks directed to many shooters throughout the three days of training.

Finally, I had to bow to old age, limited neck movement and a bad shoulder when attempting to shoot from the prone position, I cannot shoot an AR, shotgun, or pistol very well from prone either due to these physical limitations, and although I tired, I simply could not tolerate shooting the Scout from prone position for more than a few minutes at a time. I did find that the integral bipod on the Scout helped me with this challenge, but it was not the solution I needed to be fully comfortable. As a result, I spent about half my time shooting from the seated position when other students (except for one, who had problems similar to mine) were in the prone position. I was able to shoot enough five shot groups at 200 and 300 yards to determine that I can personally shoot about 30% smaller groups from seated than I can from prone.

All in all, I had a great time, learned a lot, and gained even more appreciation of the Scout rifle. I hope this class catches on and others get to experience this training.

[StraitR]

Nothing ruins the handling of a lightweight rifle concept more than a big fucking heavy scope that is designed for big heavy marksman rifles. If you're to the point of cutting off 3.5" of barrel to save weight, then it makes zero sense to buy an optic with significant weight.

Unless you're going to obsess over Tacti-timmy details that aren't critical (or outright pointless, even) for the stated application and ruin the entire concept of the rifle, I'd seriously look at this: New Ultralight 2.5-10x32 Scope from SWFA (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38274-New-Ultralight-2-5-10x32-Scope-from-SWFA). Some other options here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37539-Innocuous-looking-carbine-for-a-petite-young-lady-to-tote-long-distances&p=904436&viewfull=1#post904436), but I think that's a hard option to beat.

It's 9oz. That's about 1/3rd to 1/2 the weight of common tactical/precision oriented scopes, such as the Nightforce NXS 2.5-10x42 "compact" rifle scope. IMO, respectfully, if you're going for a lightweight rifle concept for inside 300 yards on game, buy a lightweight scope that is suitable for game inside of 300 yards; If you want a precision rifle with a scope built for such, then buy a precision rifle and be honest/consistent what you're trying to build. As for the LPVO option, unless you're room clearing or doing some sort of super fast target acquisition within 15 yards, you don't need a LPVO. It doesn't make sense to put those on a bolt action hunting rifle regardless of them being all the heat these days to put on carbines for shooting terries.

I couldn't possibly agree more on optic weight absolutely ruining the handling of a rifle. I found the same when putting a heavy 1-6 LPVO on my carbine.

That being said, I think a LPVO works great on bolt action hunting rifles if your typical hunting location is dense woods (or swamp) with a lot of underbrush. Around here, the average shot is <30 yards. FOV is a big deal, particularly on movers, and nothing gives a better FOV than a 1x. And with THAT said, the current crop of "tactical" LPVO options weigh too much. There are options geared towards hunting from Leupold, but I can't justify the price for something like a VX-6 1-6 when there are quality, proven 2-7x options at well under half the cost. I found the Burris Fullfield E1 2-7 to have the best FOV at 2x (45ft) of any 2-7 I could find, so that's what I went with. I'll have it mounted and zeroed this weekend.

I've hated the weight of the "lighter" Gen II-E 1-6 Razor from the moment I mounted it. Took it off my carbine because it destroyed the handling, particularly in combination with a suppressor, and I'm taking it off my CTR for the same reason. If it weighed 12-14oz, it would be perfect for my uses. Three years using the 14 ounce Trijicon TR24 spoiled me with LPVO weight.

[imp1295]

Do you mean single round top loading? The T3X can't single round top load? I'm wondering if the Tikka CTR can. That is a great point to bring up.

EDIT: I'm totally going to check out the Model 70 FW compact; what barrel length?

Yes, single top loading. My T3x cannot be loaded single into the magazine from open bolt.

Featherweight compact is a 20" in bbl, 13" in LOP. Met my requirements because I don't mind a wood stock. VX-5HD 1-5, 13.7 oz.

42759

[vaspence]

Do you mean single round top loading? The T3X can't single round top load? I'm wondering if the Tikka CTR can. That is a great point to bring up.

EDIT: I'm totally going to check out the Model 70 FW compact; what barrel length?

Just pulled my T3x .308 out of safe and it lets me load a single round with the empty mag in.

My T3 (not X) CTR .308 will also allow single loading on empty mag but not as reliably as the T3.

ETA - Apologies did not realize you meant loading the magazine.

[DacoRoman]

I don't recall any prescribed top loading in that class, but it's been a while. I do remember using top loading ("shoot one, load one") technique when we shot the "Scrambler" drill, with quite a bit of shooting and movement between individual shots.

I looked back in my old records and found an AAR I submitted to another forum that I used to participate in regularly. Here it is:




I recently returned from the “Scout Rifle Class” conducted at Gunsite on April 25-27. While I have obtained previous training at Gunsite and other locations with the pistol, shotgun, and carbine, this was my very first training of any kind with a rifle.

I thought I would share my experiences to the best of my recollection with the list. Most of the list members have far more rifle experience than I will undoubtedly ever acquire for the balance of my life, so bear with me (or hit the “Delete” key) if the report is boring, too low-level, or redundant.

This was the first rifle class ever conducted at Gunsite that was conducted exclusively for the “scout” configuration rifle. The class was three days in duration and there were no grades provided. Students who successfully completed the course were provided with a “Certificate of Training”, exactly as was done in the first (and I believe only) “Pistol Tune Up” class Gunsite conducted in May 2009, that I also attended.

Instructors were Il Ling New (Rangemaster) and Mario Marchman.

There were eight shooters from seven states enrolled in the class. States represented were: Alaska, California, Oregon, Arizona, New Mexico, Kansas, and Ohio. In addition to me, there was only one additional student in attendance who had no previous rifle training experience. Several of the shooters had completed 270 Rifle, Precision Rifle, Hunter Prep (and perhaps additional) classes at Gunsite, and all had trained previously under the tutelage of Il Ling. Three or four of the shooters were what I choose to call “serious” riflemen, with extensive experience. One gentleman had never owned a rifle in his life until he purchased the Scout Rifle approximately six months before the class.

Firearms were:
4 Steyr Scouts all in caliber .308 Winchester
1 Savage Scout in caliber .308 Winchester
1 Ruger Scout in caliber .308 Winchester
1 custom-built Winchester Model 70 Scout in caliber .308 Winchester
1 Browning BLR Scout in caliber .450 Marlin

The weather turned out to be a challenge at times, but did not interfere with the learning experience or the fun. While temperatures were pleasant (low 40’s in the morning and high 60’s in the afternoon), we experienced quite windy conditions on Monday and Tuesday, especially Tuesday, when the wind seldom slowed below 25 MPH and was frequently gusting to 40 or more MPH. A couple of times, wind gusts snapped the wooden support legs off the targets and they all had to be rebuilt. This contributed to a renewed interest (at least on my part) in the proper use of the Ching sling when shooting from prone and intermediate positions.

As has always been my experience at Gunsite, safety was of the utmost importance and was constantly stressed and enforced by Il Ling and Mario. There were no major issues that occurred to my knowledge, and the safety reminder that I heard repeated most often was when Il Ling and Mario reminded students to keep their rifles slung properly.

Since I was doing my best to maximize my learning experience, I didn’t keep a journal of events in the order they transpired, so as I describe some of the class activities, they will not appear in the order they occurred.

The first morning we spent classroom time reviewing equipment, carry methods, shooting basics, safety rules, and some shooting basics.

A significant amount of time was spent shooting from field positions at 100 and 200 yards to confirm zero. Two shooters had a few problems, but they were corrected with some attention. The Ruger Scout shooter’s issue turned out to be weapon-related, and I will touch on that subject in a bit. Most everyone else seemed to make only minor adjustments to their optics, if any. I personally cranked in one MOA to the left and one MOA “up” on my Leupold Scout Scope after shooting at 200 yards.

We spent time shooting at 25 to 50 yards from standing position, with shooter movement built into the exercises. We began with single shots on target, then moved to two shots, then three, from various positions. At times, single targets were engaged, and at time two targets were engaged. We learned to engage targets from slung position, from “high ready” position, and from “low ready” position. I had always carried a rifle when hunting in the field in the “American Carry” position, but quickly adapted to the “European Carry”, as I found it easiest to acquire and dismount, and felt I had better control of the rifle from that position.

A bit of time was spent reviewing movement while maintaining the fighting stance and balance, as I am familiar with from pistol, shotgun, and carbine training. Several drills were conducted on moving targets, as well as steel pepper popper targets at ranges varying from 25 to 50 yards on the movers and out to 300 yards on the steel targets. All the shooters were able to consistently achieve “vital zone” hits on the targets out to 200 yards, and almost everyone could keep all their shots on the target (although not necessarily in the “vital zone”) when the range was increased to 300 yards. Personally, I was surprised at my ability to achieve this level of accuracy with a 2.5X long eye relief scope. Others were probably not so surprised at their shooting abilities. Students were all encouraged to shoot with both eyes open so they could take advantage of the low magnification and extended eye relief afforded by the Scout design.

The most enjoyable part of the course for me (and I think for most are all of the other students) was shooting the “Scrambler”. We all shot it on Tuesday and again on Wednesday. It was on the Wednesday run on the “Scrambler” that I managed to outsmart myself when it came to tactics. I decided that since I was not going to set any speed records on the course that I would “shoot one, load one”, performing the load between shooting stations. I loaded up with six rounds and popped the magazine in the Scout down to the second detent to allow me to facilitate this strategy.

I then proceeded to shoot the first target, run the bolt, forget to load one and dropped the firing pin on an empty chamber at the next shooting station. At which point I opened the bolt, single loaded a round, shot the second target, moved to the next shooting position while again running the bolt without single loading a round of ammunition so I was met with a second “click” at the next shooting station. This time I regained my composure, performed a “slap, rack, bang” malfunction drill and proceeded through the remainder of the drill with no further drama. Quite embarrassing, and a lesson I am certain I will not forget. Glad it happened on the “Scrambler” at Gunsite instead of during a situation in which something was shooting back at me or when a 180 class mule deer was providing me with an opportunity to shoot.

To the best of my knowledge, here are the issues that were experienced with the rifles in this class:

The shooter of the BLR had quite a bit of trouble achieving zero when we first got started, but eventually was able to get things lined out. I am not certain what the issue was, but it seemed to take a bit of time to get ironed out. I think this shooter also had a bit of minor problem with the trigger mechanism, but I am not certain. As a side note, this shooter was shooting 325 grain Hornady bullets in handloads. He used two different power levels of ammo. He said his light loads were getting 1900 FPS and his heavy loads were achieving 2100 FPS. He was an excellent shooter.

The Savage Scout completely quit working just before lunch on the second day (would not fire). The shooter took it to the gunsmith during lunch where they found that the sear engagement was incorrect. Not certain of the details. He had no more problems with that rifle.

One Steyr Scout experienced a separated case head on a round of reloaded ammunition brought by the shooter. No issue with the rifle, and the rifle was returned to service immediately after the piece of separated brass was removed from the chamber.

The Ruger Scout had a loose scope mounting rail – found the mounting screws only finger tight. Obviously, the shooter had a lot of problem getting zero until this issue was identified and corrected. The Ruger shooter also (in my opinion) experienced a great bit of difficulty in achieving good sling position when assuming field shooting positions due to that huge extended Ruger magazine. It just seemed to be in the way during many of the exercises. The shooter indicated that he liked his Ruger Frontier without the detachable magazine better than he liked his Scout. As another personal observation, the Ruger Scout ejected brass farther than any other magazine fed bolt action rifle I have ever personally witnessed. And with authority. I am aware of this because there were several occasions when empty cases from this rifle bounced off my ear, head, and rifle, as I was shooting immediately to the right of the Ruger Scout shooter.

One of the Steyr Scout rifles would not allow the operator to perform the “shoot one, load one” drill. The instructors attempted the same with this particular rifle, and the rifle simply would not allow one to drop a round in and close the bolt. The ammo was changed and different methodologies were applied for several minutes, but it simply would not feed a singly loaded round. The shooter took this rifle to the gunsmith during lunch break on the second day, and they were unable to correct this condition. When I inquired about what was discussed during the gunsmith visit, the shooter told me that the gunsmith had told him that it was simply a matter of the way the barrel was pressed into the action, and that “some work and some don’t” when attempting to load single rounds. I would imagine this could be corrected, but don’t know what the shooter’s plans are to address the issue.

Three of the Steyr Scout rifles were the Cooper Commemorative models (I am not certain I have that terminology exactly correct). My Steyr was the only one of that brand that was not the Commemorative version. During a break, all four Steyr rifles happened to be placed alongside each other in the rack. It was noted that the barrels on the three Commemorative rifles were significantly heavier than the barrel on my Steyr. Mario Marchman had a Steyr Scout in .376 in his vehicle and brought it out. His rifle is a few years old and mine is four years old. The .376 Steyr had a light barrel profile similar to mine. The three Commemorative Steyr rifles had all been purchased in the past 6-8 months and had the identical, heavier profile. At the end of the class, we were able to visit Mrs. Cooper in her home, and during our tour of the armory, I noted one of the original Cooper Commemorative rifles. I checked the barrel profile on that rifle and it was the lightweight profile exactly the same as my rifle. This may be old news to many on the list, but I was previously unaware that there were differences in barrel weights/profiles among the Scout rifles.

Following the awarding of our certificates on the third day of training, we (as previously mentioned) were all able to spend almost an hour visiting Mrs. Cooper in her home and enjoyed some of her homemade Texas brownies, coffee, tea, and lemonade. As always, she was the perfect and most gracious hostess. What a lovely lady.

I can’t say enough about Il Ling and Mario. Terrific instructors, highly knowledgeable, very engaging, and fun to be around.

During the classroom time at the end of the course, Il Ling asked the students for feedback regarding the class they had just completed. Almost everyone was in favor of expanding the class from a 3-day to a 5-day curriculum, and everyone had positive feedback. I personally added a comment that I wanted to share with Il Ling and Mario. I noted that during the entire three day class that Il Ling and Mario had consistently linked the Scout rifle education to Colonel Cooper. They had perpetuated his memory and contribution to rifle craft throughout their class, and I personally felt that was very, very important. I told them so and thanked them for that. They seemed to greatly appreciate the comment, and in fact Il Ling took me aside later while we were at Mrs. Cooper’s home and thanked me for the observation. She indicated that she planned to share the comment with Mrs. Cooper. Made my day.

I learned a lot in three days and know that I hardly scratched the surface. I personally struggled with ammo management and magazine changes throughout the class as I tried to learn how to accomplish these tasks using my strong hand. This was a real challenge for me, since I am so used to doing these tasks with the support hand when shooting a pistol, shotgun, or AR. I fully understand the reasons for the difference when handling the Scout, but certainly never mastered ammo management during class. I did, however, perform some pretty spectacular “magazine juggling” feats throughout the three days! Practice, practice, practice! A gut feeling tells me that some of the other shooters struggled with learning to consistently leave their cheek welded to the stock as they worked the rifle bolt. I don’t recall being called on this, but I can certainly tell you I heard those remarks directed to many shooters throughout the three days of training.

Finally, I had to bow to old age, limited neck movement and a bad shoulder when attempting to shoot from the prone position, I cannot shoot an AR, shotgun, or pistol very well from prone either due to these physical limitations, and although I tired, I simply could not tolerate shooting the Scout from prone position for more than a few minutes at a time. I did find that the integral bipod on the Scout helped me with this challenge, but it was not the solution I needed to be fully comfortable. As a result, I spent about half my time shooting from the seated position when other students (except for one, who had problems similar to mine) were in the prone position. I was able to shoot enough five shot groups at 200 and 300 yards to determine that I can personally shoot about 30% smaller groups from seated than I can from prone.

All in all, I had a great time, learned a lot, and gained even more appreciation of the Scout rifle. I hope this class catches on and others get to experience this training.

Thank you so much for posting that. Amazing AAR. Sounds like an awesome class for sure.

I think it is cool that the Steyr scout has a mag detent position that allows you to have the mag loaded and yet allows ejection port single round chambering. I didn't know it had that feature. And very interesting that some allow it and some don't..I would guess, if the rifle has that detent feature most ought to be able to do it? I may ask for a snap cap and see if it will do it, if I go and buy one, or bring my own snap cap to try.
But I could see how that could get you into trouble if you forget that it the mag is set in that detent position. Still it sounds like a useful feature.

[DacoRoman]

Yes, single top loading. My T3x cannot be loaded single into the magazine from open bolt.

Featherweight compact is a 20" in bbl, 13" in LOP. Met my requirements because I don't mind a wood stock. VX-5HD 1-5, 13.7 oz.

42759

Very nice set up, can't go wrong with that! Thanks for posting the picture.

Will your Model 70 and Tikkas allow ejection port single round chambering?

[DacoRoman]

Just pulled my T3x .308 out of safe and it lets me load a single round with the empty mag in.

My T3 (not X) CTR .308 will also allow single loading on empty mag but not as reliably as the T3.

ETA - Apologies did not realize you meant loading the magazine.

I apologize, actually I wasn't clear enough. I did mean ejection port single round chambering, on an empty mag.

On that note it sounds like Steyr Scouts, at least some (most?), will allow a loaded mag seated to a particular detent that still allows one to load and chamber via the ejection port.

But it is good to know if a rifle allows one to load the mag via top loading, through the ejection port, as well.

Come think of it, I would strongly consider getting a second, full on Scout style rifle, including with a forward mounted scope, if I could top load the magazine via stripper clips. Do any of the Scout rifles allow for that these days?

[imp1295]

I apologize, actually I wasn't clear enough. I did mean ejection port single round chambering, on an empty mag.

On that note it sounds like Steyr Scouts, at least some (most?), will allow a loaded mag seated to a particular detent that still allows one to load and chamber via the ejection port.

But it is good to know if a rifle allows one to load the mag via top loading, through the ejection port, as well.

Come think of it, I would strongly consider getting a second, full on Scout style rifle, including with a forward mounted scope, if I could top load the magazine via stripper clips. Do any of the Scout rifles allow for that these days?

To be as clear as I can.

Tikka T3x - Can single load round, push feed action. Cannot top off magazine from open bolt position. Must drop the magazine to load (cannot top off magazine from open bolt position.)

Model 70 - Controlled Round Feed, like all the rest of the CRF. Cannot single load from open bolt. Must load into magazine.

Hope that helps, others here can probably explain much more clearly than me. In fact, they have explained more clearly, it is just a matter of finding it.

[rob_s]

Hello y’all!

I’m looking for a rifle like the title reads.

I would like:
- to put a 1-5 or 6x vs a 1-8x or possibly a 2.5-10 scope on it.
- I would like to use 5-20 round mags, with extra points if it takes AR pattern mags
- be able to use it as a personal defense weapon in states like CA, on overlanding trips
- Use it for medium to large game out to 300 yards or so.
- Be able to shoot reduced IPSC silhouette steel (12x24”) out to 500 yards

The Ruger an Steyr Scouts are very intriguing but force you to mount a scope far forward, which I don’t want to do. And I would be willing to give up iron sights for a more traditional scope mounting system.

There is the Mossberg MVP Scout, which has a longer rail that comes all the way back and takes AR10 mags but I’m concerned about quality and action.

I like what’s going on here with this Tikka (video below), but the 10 round mags are $90 each, and I’d have to get some good gunsmith to cut down the barrel. But if pressed I'd go this type of route at this point.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Going back to the OP...

As someone that has spent countless hours on this thought experiment, and having read through the rest of the replies, my suggestion is this:

Buy a gun and a scope and go shoot.

That is, assuming that you have an actual need for the thing.

Generally trying to reinvent the wheel in your own head is counter-productive, and you lack the experience and context to understand the nuances of what you’re trying to do or the consequences of some of the choices you’re making. The more esoteric these things get (sniper chassis, non-standard calibers, importing magazines from australia, etc.) the more you should start to realize that you’re balls-deep in the rabbit hole.

Buy a Model 70 and a Ching Sling and go get yourself signed up for one of Randy Cain’s Practical Rifle classes.

Or, if you really have a current need, buy pretty much any gun from pretty much any major manufacturer and put pretty much any optic in it and go see how it works for you, and adjust as necessary.

[DacoRoman]

To be as clear as I can.

Tikka T3x - Can single load round, push feed action. Cannot top off magazine from open bolt position. Must drop the magazine to load (cannot top off magazine from open bolt position.)

Model 70 - Controlled Round Feed, like all the rest of the CRF. Cannot single load from open bolt. Must load into magazine.

Hope that helps, others here can probably explain much more clearly than me. In fact, they have explained more clearly, it is just a matter of finding it.

Perfect thanks.

[DacoRoman]

Going back to the OP...

As someone that has spent countless hours on this thought experiment, and having read through the rest of the replies, my suggestion is this:

Buy a gun and a scope and go shoot.

That is, assuming that you have an actual need for the thing.

Generally trying to reinvent the wheel in your own head is counter-productive, and you lack the experience and context to understand the nuances of what you’re trying to do or the consequences of some of the choices you’re making. The more esoteric these things get (sniper chassis, non-standard calibers, importing magazines from australia, etc.) the more you should start to realize that you’re balls-deep in the rabbit hole.

Buy a Model 70 and a Ching Sling and go get yourself signed up for one of Randy Cain’s Practical Rifle classes.

Or, if you really have a current need, buy pretty much any gun from pretty much any major manufacturer and put pretty much any optic in it and go see how it works for you, and adjust as necessary.



I am very familiar with the spirit of your advice, and I’ve given it often myself. It is nice to use a forum like this as a sounding board, and learn a few things in the process. Besides everything discussed so far has revolved around good practical choices, without any strange rodent holes. It has been a good review I think, with some very specific and useful information. Much better than get any scope and any rifle, although like I said, I totally get what you are getting at.

[Lost River]

The reason why I still prefer the .308 for me, and this is based on the style of hunting that I do/animals I shoot/where I live (Northern Rockies), is that when properly utilizing the T3 platform to its full potential (remember it is a long action), I can easily swap out my standard 155 Scenars for something a lot heavier if I need to:


http://i.imgur.com/vTxNOWm.jpg (https://imgur.com/vTxNOWm)

Shown in this pic are Left to Right:

155 grain Lapua Scenar, 200 grain Nosler Partition, and 215 grain Berger VLD.





The 155 Scenar and 200 grain Partition both work fine using the standard medium (.308) magazines. The 215 Bergers require that I use a large mag that comes standard with the 30-06/.300WM.

Shown here is a 200 Grain Partition loaded to max length to take advantage of the ID of the mag.

http://i.imgur.com/xCR07DW.jpg (https://imgur.com/xCR07DW)

215 Berger/large mag:


http://i.imgur.com/kyc0Uj3.jpg (https://imgur.com/kyc0Uj3)


Generally I have one of these mags (full of 200 grain Nosler Partitions*) with me in case we run into a large bear (Ursus HolyShitus)while on a kill site or whatever. I have yet to see a critter however that could stand up to the 155 Scenars though. While I have yet to personally ever see any animal walk away from a hit from a 155 Scenar fired from a .308 or 30-06, and I did note some pics floating around the net of what is some version of brown bear/Griz that got DRT'd by a couple of 155 Scenars from a .308, if given the choice of a magazine full of 200 grain Partitions or 155 Scenars, I would skip the match bullet and go with the purpose built projectile, not to mention go with the heavier one (which is pretty much always a good idea when dealing with large/dangerous critters as a general rule). It is just one of those "have it and not need it" tools, much like a take down cleaning rod, and a broken shell extractor.

* The 215 Bergers were a long range experiment. They worked fine but I ended up standardizing on the 155 Scenar as my all around load, as I tend to pick one or two loads for a cartridge, and load in bulk.

Elk, bear, moose, are all reasons I would rather have a .30 cal instead of a 6.5.

There are no flies at all on the 6.5 Creedmoor and there will be one in the safe as soon as I burn out the barrel on my old R700 .260 heavy barrel , or do some more horse trading and decide to grab another T3.

The 6.5 CM does a lot of things well, and at extended ranges, it really shines, but when a person is an experienced handloader and can pick an appropriate projectile (with ballistic coefficients that are similar) the performance gap between the two is pretty thin.

Given that, I would pretty much always rather hit an elk with a 200 grain bullet than a 130 grain, at the cost of a little bit more recoil (mitigated by muzzle brakes).

Now with that said, if mule deer, elk, bears etc are not on the menu and punching AR-500 plates is something that is more likely than punching elk front shoulders then the 6.5 CM makes sense. Choose the right tool for the job you are most likely to do, not the one you might do "some day" (but in reality probably won't).

[DacoRoman]

The reason why I still prefer the .308 for me, and this is based on the style of hunting that I do/animals I shoot/where I live (Northern Rockies), is that when properly utilizing the T3 platform to its full potential (remember it is a long action), I can easily swap out my standard 155 Scenars for something a lot heavier if I need to:


http://i.imgur.com/vTxNOWm.jpg (https://imgur.com/vTxNOWm)

Shown in this pic are Left to Right:

155 grain Lapua Scenar, 200 grain Nosler Partition, and 215 grain Berger VLD.





The 155 Scenar and 200 grain Partition both work fine using the standard medium (.308) magazines. The 215 Bergers require that I use a large mag that comes standard with the 30-06/.300WM.

Shown here is a 200 Grain Partition loaded to max length to take advantage of the ID of the mag.

http://i.imgur.com/xCR07DW.jpg (https://imgur.com/xCR07DW)

215 Berger/large mag:


http://i.imgur.com/kyc0Uj3.jpg (https://imgur.com/kyc0Uj3)


Generally I have one of these mags (full of 200 grain Nosler Partitions*) with me in case we run into a large bear (Ursus HolyShitus)while on a kill site or whatever. I have yet to see a critter however that could stand up to the 155 Scenars though. While I have yet to personally ever see any animal walk away from a hit from a 155 Scenar fired from a .308 or 30-06, and I did note some pics floating around the net of what is some version of brown bear/Griz that got DRT'd by a couple of 155 Scenars from a .308, if given the choice of a magazine full of 200 grain Partitions or 155 Scenars, I would skip the match bullet and go with the purpose built projectile, not to mention go with the heavier one (which is pretty much always a good idea when dealing with large/dangerous critters as a general rule). It is just one of those "have it and not need it" tools, much like a take down cleaning rod, and a broken shell extractor.

* The 215 Bergers were a long range experiment. They worked fine but I ended up standardizing on the 155 Scenar as my all around load, as I tend to pick one or two loads for a cartridge, and load in bulk.

Elk, bear, moose, are all reasons I would rather have a .30 cal instead of a 6.5.

There are no flies at all on the 6.5 Creedmoor and there will be one in the safe as soon as I burn out the barrel on my old R700 .260 heavy barrel , or do some more horse trading and decide to grab another T3.

The 6.5 CM does a lot of things well, and at extended ranges, it really shines, but when a person is an experienced handloader and can pick an appropriate projectile (with ballistic coefficients that are similar) the performance gap between the two is pretty thin.

Given that, I would pretty much always rather hit an elk with a 200 grain bullet than a 130 grain, at the cost of a little bit more recoil (mitigated by muzzle brakes).

Now with that said, if mule deer, elk, bears etc are not on the menu and punching AR-500 plates is something that is more likely than punching elk front shoulders then the 6.5 CM makes sense. Choose the right tool for the job you are most likely to do, not the one you might do "some day" (but in reality probably won't).

Many thanks for the great info. I’ll be studying it for a bit.

Btw all, I’m about half way through that Scout 2016 thread. Epic thread for sure. If anyone is researching practical rifle type platforms that thread is a must read for sure.

Thanks again to all.

[SteveB]

I have rediscovered the Steyr Scout. I had one of the originals, in .308, back in the early 2000’s, and was underwhelmed at the time being a Model 70 fanboy. I spent some time and money messing around with the scout concept in custom rifles before giving up on the idea of a forward-mounted scope. Now in Florida, I’m a fan of the 6.5CM and really like my Barrett Fieldcraft. For a general-purpose, light, short, swamp-resistant bolt rifle, though, I’d like the option of more bullets. So when I saw a 6.5 Steyr with significant improvements over the original, better bolt handle, threaded barrel, same great action and trigger, I thought I’d give it another try. I installed the 10-round mag kit, so, loaded up, 21 rounds on the gun with the extra mag in the buttstock. I tried a bunch of 6.5CM ammo, it likes Hornady Full Boar 120 grain GMX at 2778 fps. 5 rounds into .5 inch at 100 yards. I’ve never liked the Millet flush sling swivel system as I had one fail on me once, so I replaced them with push-button swivels; I’ll stick a post in Gunsmithing with a how-to-do it. Pretty happy with this one.

43450

43451

[SteveB]

Guess we don’t a section for amateur gunsmithing, so here’s what I did with these Millett swivels (which are apparently out of production):

Here’s the flush-mount swivel base:

43452

And the sling attachment in place:

43453

Unscrew swivel base with flat screwdriver. Drill out hole with 1/2” drill, and tap with 9/16”-18 plug tap. Looks like this:

43454

Screw in Grovtec bases with a Grovtec insertion tool. As I’m using a Ching sling, I used limited rotation bases fore and aft, and a full-rotation base for the middle limb of the sling.

43455

43456

[Cecil Burch]

I have rediscovered the Steyr Scout. I had one of the originals, in .308, back in the early 2000’s, and was underwhelmed at the time being a Model 70 fanboy. I spent some time and money messing around with the scout concept in custom rifles before giving up on the idea of a forward-mounted scope. Now in Florida, I’m a fan of the 6.5CM and really like my Barrett Fieldcraft. For a general-purpose, light, short, swamp-resistant bolt rifle, though, I’d like the option of more bullets. So when I saw a 6.5 Steyr with significant improvements over the original, better bolt handle, threaded barrel, same great action and trigger, I thought I’d give it another try. I installed the 10-round mag kit, so, loaded up, 21 rounds on the gun with the extra mag in the buttstock. I tried a bunch of 6.5CM ammo, it likes Hornady Full Boar 120 grain GMX at 2778 fps. 5 rounds into .5 inch at 100 yards. I’ve never liked the Millet flush sling swivel system as I had one fail on me once, so I replaced them with push-button swivels; I’ll stick a post in Gunsmithing with a how-to-do it. Pretty happy with this one.




What scope are you using?

[JonInWA]

This may seem counterintuitive, but I'm impressed with my CZ 527 carbine in 7.62 X 39; decent iron sights, very light and handy, and with a Strike Force Moisin Nagant dual striper clip buttstock pouch (which perfectly holds 2 CZ 527 magazines) you've got a on-rifle capacity of 16 rounds. Essentially a 150-200 yard rifle; similar ballistics to the 30-30.

Best, Jon

[SteveB]

What scope are you using?

Swarovski 1-8

[SteveB]

This may seem counterintuitive, but I'm impressed with my CZ 527 carbine in 7.62 X 39; decent iron sights, very light and handy, and with a Strike Force Moisin Nagant dual striper clip buttstock pouch (which perfectly holds 2 CZ 527 magazines) you've got a on-rifle capacity of 16 rounds. Essentially a 150-200 yard rifle; similar ballistics to the 30-30.

Best, Jon

Agreed; mine shoots the Hornady 123 SST really well.

[DacoRoman]

I have rediscovered the Steyr Scout. I had one of the originals, in .308, back in the early 2000’s, and was underwhelmed at the time being a Model 70 fanboy. I spent some time and money messing around with the scout concept in custom rifles before giving up on the idea of a forward-mounted scope. Now in Florida, I’m a fan of the 6.5CM and really like my Barrett Fieldcraft. For a general-purpose, light, short, swamp-resistant bolt rifle, though, I’d like the option of more bullets. So when I saw a 6.5 Steyr with significant improvements over the original, better bolt handle, threaded barrel, same great action and trigger, I thought I’d give it another try. I installed the 10-round mag kit, so, loaded up, 21 rounds on the gun with the extra mag in the buttstock. I tried a bunch of 6.5CM ammo, it likes Hornady Full Boar 120 grain GMX at 2778 fps. 5 rounds into .5 inch at 100 yards. I’ve never liked the Millet flush sling swivel system as I had one fail on me once, so I replaced them with push-button swivels; I’ll stick a post in Gunsmithing with a how-to-do it. Pretty happy with this one.

43450

43451

Very cool...I have to admit I’m very intrigued by this straight forward and practical option...hmmm..

How heavy is it with and without scope please?

[DacoRoman]

This may seem counterintuitive, but I'm impressed with my CZ 527 carbine in 7.62 X 39; decent iron sights, very light and handy, and with a Strike Force Moisin Nagant dual striper clip buttstock pouch (which perfectly holds 2 CZ 527 magazines) you've got a on-rifle capacity of 16 rounds. Essentially a 150-200 yard rifle; similar ballistics to the 30-30.

Best, Jon

And these are even controlled feed too right?

These seem like a great option to have period for a lighter, medium power, carbine. I have 762x39 left over too after selling my Polytech, so it would be a very practical choice for sure

[Cecil Burch]

Swarovski 1-8

Thank you

[fatdog]

... I installed the 10-round mag kit,

Thanks for sharing, I have been intrigued by that 6.5CR Steyr Scout rifle since it was introduced, but haven't talked or corresponded to anyone who actually had it. Sounds like the accuracy is living up to the cartridge's reputation.

Is the 10 round kit for yours, and for that matter are the 10 round magazines the same parts/items as the .308 version of the kit and magazines that Steyr sells?

[SteveB]

Very cool...I have to admit I’m very intrigued by this straight forward and practical option...hmmm..

How heavy is it with and without scope please?

6 lbs 10 oz.

[SteveB]

Thanks for sharing, I have been intrigued by that 6.5CR Steyr Scout rifle since it was introduced, but haven't talked or corresponded to anyone who actually had it. Sounds like the accuracy is living up to the cartridge's reputation.

Is the 10 round kit for yours, and for that matter are the 10 round magazines the same parts/items as the .308 version of the kit and magazines that Steyr sells?

Yes

[JonInWA]

And these are even controlled feed too right?

These seem like a great option to have period for a lighter, medium power, carbine. I have 762x39 left over too after selling my Polytech, so it would be a very practical choice for sure

Yep, controlled feed; CZ uses the Mauser controlled feed bolt on these, scaling it down proportionately to the cartridge; they term it a "micro Mauser." While the CZ 527 was originally chambered in 7.62 X 39 and .223/5.56, they've expanded to other chamberings like 6.5 Grendel and 300 Blackout, so there's some additional flexibility; my preference is with the 7.62 X 39, but I'm certainly not opposed to the other chamberings.

Best, Jon

[rob_s]

This may seem counterintuitive, but I'm impressed with my CZ 527 carbine in 7.62 X 39; decent iron sights, very light and handy, and with a Strike Force Moisin Nagant dual striper clip buttstock pouch (which perfectly holds 2 CZ 527 magazines) you've got a on-rifle capacity of 16 rounds. Essentially a 150-200 yard rifle; similar ballistics to the 30-30.

Best, Jon

I don't think it's counter intuitive at all. I think most of us just think of the bulk, surplus, steel-cased 7.62 ammo and think "AK" or "SKS" but the 527 definitely ticks a lot of the boxes.

[Flashman]

As a student of Cooper's Scout concept, 270 grad (about 6 mos before his death) and owner of 2 scout rifles, I will contribute my humble opinion. The scout rifle concept has many good ideas which Cooper believed most if not all must be incorporated to make a "scout rifle." Technology has changed but, most importantly, experience has influenced my thoughts below.

First and foremost is that a scout rifle is lightweight as is a "practical rifle" and not really intended to be shot like an AR or other military grade weapon. This means it is not really designed for a fire fight or extended strings of multiple shots. In my view, the various scout actions and barrels and all other commercial type bolt actions, cannot tolerate the heat generated by extended, quick shooting strings. I would love to shoot 3 gun with a bolt action (scout) but suspect after a couple of matches, my rifle would be toast. Maybe if the bolt was a G98, G96 or Springfield 1903 it would hold up but a bolt designed for recreational hunters would probably not.

Keeping this in mind, ammo management overly complicates the scout rifle, adding weight and sources of failure.. My preference now is that both of my scouts would have blind magazines. Again, this isn't a battle rifle. It is one for hunting or to extricate oneself bad circumstances. Learn to load a blind magazine quickly. Single cartridge loading can be done with the M70 and M77MKII since the extractor claw will slip over the case rim upon closing the bolt but will not with Mausers.

Light and handy is important. Barrel length no less than 20 inches--who needs the increased blast closer to one's face and ears.

Traditional scope mounting is fine with the newer LPVO's that were not available 20 years ago.

Strong actions are also important such as the M70 and M77MKII's. The original Sako Scout actions were prone to breakage. My Savage action has had three separate breakages (2 parts) in 15 years.

There is nothing wrong with traditional open sights as backup sights versus the ghost ring favored by Cooper.

So I have evolved or devolved that if I were to do it all over again, I would consider a NULA's 20 inch, the Barrett Fieldcraft or similar actions/rifles that seem to have good reputations, an M70 Compact or M77MKII, all in 308 with a 1x4 to 1x6 low mounted scope. Light, handy, quick and rugged.

[deputyG23]

As a student of Cooper's Scout concept, 270 grad (about 6 mos before his death) and owner of 2 scout rifles, I will contribute my humble opinion. The scout rifle concept has many good ideas which Cooper believed most if not all must be incorporated to make a "scout rifle." Technology has changed but, most importantly, experience has influenced my thoughts below.

First and foremost is that a scout rifle is lightweight as is a "practical rifle" and not really intended to be shot like an AR or other military grade weapon. This means it is not really designed for a fire fight or extended strings of multiple shots. In my view, the various scout actions and barrels and all other commercial type bolt actions, cannot tolerate the heat generated by extended, quick shooting strings. I would love to shoot 3 gun with a bolt action (scout) but suspect after a couple of matches, my rifle would be toast. Maybe if the bolt was a G98, G96 or Springfield 1903 it would hold up but a bolt designed for recreational hunters would probably not.

Keeping this in mind, ammo management overly complicates the scout rifle, adding weight and sources of failure.. My preference now is that both of my scouts would have blind magazines. Again, this isn't a battle rifle. It is one for hunting or to extricate oneself bad circumstances. Learn to load a blind magazine quickly. Single cartridge loading can be done with the M70 and M77MKII since the extractor claw will slip over the case rim upon closing the bolt but will not with Mausers.

Light and handy is important. Barrel length no less than 20 inches--who needs the increased blast closer to one's face and ears.

Traditional scope mounting is fine with the newer LPVO's that were not available 20 years ago.

Strong actions are also important such as the M70 and M77MKII's. The original Sako Scout actions were prone to breakage. My Savage action has had three separate breakages (2 parts) in 15 years.

There is nothing wrong with traditional open sights as backup sights versus the ghost ring favored by Cooper.

So I have evolved or devolved that if I were to do it all over again, I would consider a NULA's 20 inch, the Barrett Fieldcraft or similar actions/rifles that seem to have good reputations, an M70 Compact or M77MKII, all in 308 with a 1x4 to 1x6 low mounted scope. Light, handy, quick and rugged.
Since I have recently come into a significant quantity of .308 brass, thousands of bullets, pounds of various powders and about two hundred carefully loaded rounds from an estate, I am mentally trying to put together a practical .308 bolt gun.
The T/C Compass sorely tempted me at the current price and reported great accuracy, but issues with the trigger and the presence of a detachable magazine has cooled me off from that thought.
I own an early '80s push feed M70 "Westerner" chambered in 30-06 that my wife bought me when we were first married. Very smooth bolt action, but kicks like a mule from the bench sighting it in.
A M70 Featherweight with a good fixed 4x or 2-7 ish variable might work as well or better than anything, taking into consideration Flashman's comments about the role of the Scout rifle.

[willie]

Mention was made of the BLR and Rem 7615. I owned several BLR's over the years. Fine rifles but don't make the mistake of disassembling one. You may not get it back together. If you do, then it may not function, and you start over again. About the Rem 7615. It's parent is the Rem 760 which gave rise to the 7600 which was modified to make the 7615. I owned three 760 rifles in different calibers. One was .222 Rem even. They are fine woods rifles for deer hunting. They have Rem shotgun type triggers with a slow hammer fall. You can forget taking apart the 760 or 7600. The process is complicated and involves removing the barrel. The 7615 is probably the same. The Texas Prison system issued the 760 in .308 Win. The 7600 version had some accuracy improvements, but after 3 shots, groups enlarge due to barrel heating.

[GJM]

I have fiddled around with scout/practical rifles, and lightweight hunting rifles, for more than twenty years. Since a hunting rifle might become a defensive rifle at any time, my standard for durability, is it must hold up to a Randy Cain or Gunsite rifle class. Frankly, many of the lightweight bolt actions will not. Same for certain lever guns and even shotguns.

I have had great luck with model 70 based rifles, and prefer to build on them.

[deputyG23]

As a student of Cooper's Scout concept, 270 grad (about 6 mos before his death) and owner of 2 scout rifles, I will contribute my humble opinion. The scout rifle concept has many good ideas which Cooper believed most if not all must be incorporated to make a "scout rifle." Technology has changed but, most importantly, experience has influenced my thoughts below.

First and foremost is that a scout rifle is lightweight as is a "practical rifle" and not really intended to be shot like an AR or other military grade weapon. This means it is not really designed for a fire fight or extended strings of multiple shots. In my view, the various scout actions and barrels and all other commercial type bolt actions, cannot tolerate the heat generated by extended, quick shooting strings. I would love to shoot 3 gun with a bolt action (scout) but suspect after a couple of matches, my rifle would be toast. Maybe if the bolt was a G98, G96 or Springfield 1903 it would hold up but a bolt designed for recreational hunters would probably not.

Keeping this in mind, ammo management overly complicates the scout rifle, adding weight and sources of failure.. My preference now is that both of my scouts would have blind magazines. Again, this isn't a battle rifle. It is one for hunting or to extricate oneself bad circumstances. Learn to load a blind magazine quickly. Single cartridge loading can be done with the M70 and M77MKII since the extractor claw will slip over the case rim upon closing the bolt but will not with Mausers.

Light and handy is important. Barrel length no less than 20 inches--who needs the increased blast closer to one's face and ears.

Traditional scope mounting is fine with the newer LPVO's that were not available 20 years ago.

Strong actions are also important such as the M70 and M77MKII's. The original Sako Scout actions were prone to breakage. My Savage action has had three separate breakages (2 parts) in 15 years.

There is nothing wrong with traditional open sights as backup sights versus the ghost ring favored by Cooper.

So I have evolved or devolved that if I were to do it all over again, I would consider a NULA's 20 inch, the Barrett Fieldcraft or similar actions/rifles that seem to have good reputations, an M70 Compact or M77MKII, all in 308 with a 1x4 to 1x6 low mounted scope. Light, handy, quick and rugged.
Which of the Sako actions are prone to breakage?
I am eyeballing a .308 H&R Ultra bolt gun from the ‘70s with the L579 action at a LGS tagged at $599.

[Flashman]

My recollection is that many of the original versions of the Scout rifle were based on Sako actions available in the 70’s and although light, sized to cartridge length, were not terribly robust.

[fatdog]

Back in the summer I sold a bunch of unloved guns and I have been contemplating a project for the fall/winter. As a lover of 6.5CR and the Scout concept, SteveB's posts in this thread pushed me over the edge on this one. 6.5CR with a 1-6 scope. Zero'ed it up last weekend at my local club and it is a tack driver at 100 yards, I am getting ready to get to my long range club this weekend and see how it does at various ranges. If it doesn't ring our steel at 700 yards I will be most surprised.

44466

[GJM]

Back in the summer I sold a bunch of unloved guns and I have been contemplating a project for the fall/winter. As a lover of 6.5CR and the Scout concept, Steveb's posts in this thread pushed me over the edge on this one. 6.5CR with a 1-6 scope. Zero'ed it up last weekend at my local club and it is a tack driver at 100 yards, I am getting ready to get to my long range club this weekend and see how it does at various ranges. If it doesn't ring our steel at 700 yards I will be most surprised.

44466

In 6.5, I like the Steyr, the Barrett 22 inch threaded model, the Christensen Arms Ridgeline and the Q Fix as candidates for a lightweight practical rifle.

[secondstoryguy]

While I’m really liking the data and reports I’m hearing about the 6.5 creed I don’t think many are thinking about the barrel life issue. 6.5 creed has 1/2 the barrel life of a .308 and some reports are saying 2k-3k rounds which ain’t a hellava lot. Not a big deal if your a comp shooter or running a rifle with a quick change barrel like an AI but it would suck to try and get a new barrel for something like the Scout(which I hear is something of a PIA). Just a thought.

[coldcase1984]

In 6.5, I like the Steyr, the Barrett 22 inch threaded model, the Christensen Arms Ridgeline and the Q Fix as candidates for a lightweight practical rifle.
And which 1-6s scope is that, sir?

[SecondsCount]

And which 1-6s scope is that, sir?

Vortex, PST II

[coldcase1984]

Hello y’all!

I’m looking for a rifle like the title reads.

I would like:
- to put a 1-5 or 6x vs a 1-8x or possibly a 2.5-10 scope on it.
- I would like to use 5-20 round mags, with extra points if it takes AR pattern mags
- be able to use it as a personal defense weapon in states like CA, on overlanding trips
- Use it for medium to large game out to 300 yards or so.
- Be able to shoot reduced IPSC silhouette steel (12x24”) out to 500 yards

The Ruger an Steyr Scouts are very intriguing but force you to mount a scope far forward, which I don’t want to do. And I would be willing to give up iron sights for a more traditional scope mounting system.

There is the Mossberg MVP Scout, which has a longer rail that comes all the way back and takes AR10 mags but I’m concerned about quality and action.

I like what’s going on here with this Tikka (video below), but the 10 round mags are $90 each, and I’d have to get some good gunsmith to cut down the barrel. But if pressed I'd go this type of route at this point.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-x7N8hLI2yM

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

I would suggest you re-view Chris Baker's excellent video you attached as well as his follow-up shooting video, then clone his rig.

The Tikka T3x compact he put together should be a factory offering! You could spend much more and wind up with a lesser rig.

Also, Lost River always gives hard-won sound advice about all weapon systems.

Important point: the extended mags in both Chris & Post show are the factory 5-rounders. They work fine and cost about $35. You're thinking of the CTR's 10-rounder.

My version is a stainless T3x Lite .22/250 8-twist that I had cut & threaded at 18-in. for my suppressor or an A2 flash suppressor for muzzle down truck gun carry.

Because I'm constantly playing optics roulette it currently has a 4-12x40 Nikon rimfire scope on it and a tough enough for Middle Tennessee SIG-Sauer Romeo 5 red dot is ready to go for backup. Gonna try to show it to a deer this month.

In that spirit,

It's 5-round mags hold good ol' Remington 55-grain CLs that'll hit considerably harder than 5.56. May work up some 62-grain Barnes TTSX next spring.

While the .308 and .223 are great choices when politics are not fooling with our God-given rights, I know .22/250, .270 and other common hunting rounds were never off the shelf c. 2012-2015...

Also, 6.5 Creed has more popularity and variations and should stay in good supply for awhile if the SHTF again.

My next Tikka will prolly be a 6.5 Creed Sportman's Superlite, modified like Chris' .308, because of ballistics and ammo selection everywhere...

[MistWolf]

...that's going to require carrying the rifle at all times in 1x, instead of in the power you're actually using for hunting.
It's SOP hunt with a variable scope set on its lowest power until more magnification is needed. If something pops up close (like a bear charging out of the undergrowth) there will be no time to dial the scope down.

However, if something is spotted in the distance there is usually time to dial up the magnification of the spotting scope, plan the stalk and get closer.

There's no downside to setting an LPV to 1x for hunting.

[secondstoryguy]

I still like .308. Having been heavy into precision rifle shooting and reloading during the last major gun-ban panic-ammo buying thing I can tell you that it was a relief to have a .308. I was shooting .308 and 6.5x47 Lapua as well as a few others and the one that was by far easiest to feed was the .308.

Now that a bunch of data is out and SOCOM has tested/adopted the 6.5 Creed I know of at least one SWAT Team who's adopted it as a precision rifle round. Hornady, who seems to be really listening to end users, is currently loading their excellent LE TAP round in 6.5 Creedmore and word on the street they are gonna do a LE load using their GMX bullet for a barrier/glass round. All and all a fantastic round for LE sniping, hunting and LR shooting. That being said, one of the arguments I have against using it in an LE precision rifle capacity is availability should another panic buy occur. This sounds silly but this is a very real concern when it comes to logistics. During hard times I know I can always find something to use operationally in .308...6.5 Creed maybe not.

As an aside we have tested and are currently using both the TAP 165 .308 load and their GMX round for a barrier round. The SD is amazing (about 8 fps) with the Hornady ammo and I have logged numerous .25-.5 groups out of a variety of rifles. We have also shot it through gelatin, windows and barriers all with impressive results. Again, Hornady is stepping up and I'm impressed.

[Flashman]

After Bore Coating a new unfired GSR, the process required 7 to 8 rounds fired quickly to "heat treat" the bore to set the coating. This wasn't a sighting in session but I decided to shoot it off bags at 50 yds anyway. 15 seconds and 9 shots later, the results astounded me: all hits were at the same elevation from the bullseye extending 2 1/2 inches left. Amazing!

A couple minutes earlier, I began sighting in a brand new AR with irons and red dot with larger groups, and of course, elevation and windage a bit off although not too bad at 50 yards for a new rifle.

[okie john]

While I’m really liking the data and reports I’m hearing about the 6.5 creed I don’t think many are thinking about the barrel life issue.

This.


Okie John

[fatdog]

...I don’t think many are thinking about the barrel life issue. 6.5 creed has 1/2 the barrel life of a .308 and some reports are saying 2k-3k rounds which ain’t a hellava lot.

Depends on how old you are.

Since this is not a high volume competition gun for me, that means maybe 2-3 practice sessions per year, maybe 150 rounds or so...never going to be an issue and I don't care if my heirs have to rebarrel the thing...;)

[secondstoryguy]

Depends on how old you are.

Since this is not a high volume competition gun for me, that means maybe 2-3 practice sessions per year, maybe 150 rounds or so...never going to be an issue and I don't care if my heirs have to rebarrel the thing...;)

True, I guess (and unfortunately) that’s probably a realistic round count for your average sportsman.

[GJM]

When I was speaking with the lead instructor for Gunsite’s Precision Rifle class, he advised me to bring a .308 not a 6.5, because the 6.5 was “too easy,” and I would learn more with a .308. I am all for learning, but outside of class, I am all about the easy switch. As to barrel life, my goal it to wear stuff out, because it means I am using them a lot.

Local place in Bozeman had an attractive sale today, and I bought a 6.5. Christensen Arms Ridgeline with a Leupold VX6 2-12 in Nightforce lightweight rings on a zero moa Talley rail.

I was amazed how much high quality ammo there is in 6.5 for reasonable prices.

45046

[SecondsCount]

If you are shooting more then 500 rounds a year in your bolt gun, barrel life becomes a non-issue. The cost of a new Bartlein barrel is $450 installed by my gunsmith. By the time 5 years comes around, there will be a new 6mm Gay Tiger catching your eye anyways :cool:

[SecondsCount]

...

Local place in Bozeman had an attractive sale today, and I bought a 6.5. Christensen Arms Ridgeline with a Leupold VX6 2-12 in Nightforce lightweight rings on a zero moa Talley rail.

I was amazed how much high quality ammo there is in 6.5 for reasonable prices.

45046
That's a good looking rifle

[HeavyDuty]

After Bore Coating a new unfired GSR, the process required 7 to 8 rounds fired quickly to "heat treat" the bore to set the coating. This wasn't a sighting in session but I decided to shoot it off bags at 50 yds anyway. 15 seconds and 9 shots later, the results astounded me: all hits were at the same elevation from the bullseye extending 2 1/2 inches left. Amazing!

A couple minutes earlier, I began sighting in a brand new AR with irons and red dot with larger groups, and of course, elevation and windage a bit off although not too bad at 50 yards for a new rifle.

This stuff?

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019547645

[Flashman]

Yes, it is.

[Lost River]

When I was speaking with the lead instructor for Gunsite’s Precision Rifle class, he advised me to bring a .308 not a 6.5, because the 6.5 was “too easy,” and I would learn more with a .308. I am all for learning, but outside of class, I am all about the easy switch. As to barrel life, my goal it to wear stuff out, because it means I am using them a lot.

Local place in Bozeman had an attractive sale today, and I bought a 6.5. Christensen Arms Ridgeline with a Leupold VX6 2-12 in Nightforce lightweight rings on a zero moa Talley rail.

I was amazed how much high quality ammo there is in 6.5 for reasonable prices.

45046


Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's Rifle.

Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's Rifle.

Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's Rifle.

[GJM]

Finally got to shoot the new CA Ridgeline. Fired a few shots to get it on paper, and this was the first group fired, with Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor 140 ELD at 100 yards. In that I don’t do much group shooting, and this was the first load I tried, I think the rifle shows promise.

45581

[Lost River]

That'll do donkey, that'll do :cool:

[SteveB]

The Steyr Scout muzzle has a Euro thread pitch of 1/2-20; not helpful for US muzzle devices. Steyr does sell an adapter; gives you 5/8-24:

46144

[OlongJohnson]

Silencerco also makes a 1/2-20 to 1/2-28 adaptor. Seems a little weird to be that small on a .308, though. Is that a 6.5 something?

[rob_s]

6.5 was “too easy,”

too easy because why? Flatter trajectory and less drop to worry about, or something else?

[GJM]

too easy because why? Flatter trajectory and less drop to worry about, or something else?

Simplified wind reading.

[SteveB]

Silencerco also makes a 1/2-20 to 1/2-28 adaptor. Seems a little weird to be that small on a .308, though. Is that a 6.5 something?

6.5 Creedmoor

[HeavyDuty]

I’ve been embarrassed to mention this because it is so incredibly uncool. But...

About ten years ago I decided I “needed” a lightweight .308 that could be used for everything from meat gathering to defense. I’m not a prepper, but I do believe in self reliance and I knew my usual 5.56 would be marginal in those roles. I wanted something cheap, minute of pie plate accurate and lightweight. Fuddy was ok.

I ended up with a 22” barreled Stevens 200 with a factory FDE rubber stock (swapped out from the grey one it came with, my one vanity), a blind mag (one less thing to lose in the field) and a Nikon 1-4x in a one piece base and rings combo.

It met my needs for a bottom dollar rifle, and I liked how it turned out enough that I did a second in .223.

No cool kid points, but I figure I can anchor anything within 300M if needed. I’ve only shot it out to a lasered 470M.

[deputyG23]

There is a Franchi Momentum .308 bolt gun at the Cabela’s up the road from me.
Gun feels good in the hands and has most of the attributes I am looking for.
22” barrel, reasonable weight, and hinged floorplate mag. No controlled feed or irons are the downside for me.
Has what appears to be a one piece Weaver Mount. Asking $499.
I have a crappy 2.5 Simmons scope and tons of scope rings to play with if I buy it.

[Lost River]

I’ve been embarrassed to mention this because it is so incredibly uncool. But...

About ten years ago I decided I “needed” a lightweight .308 that could be used for everything from meat gathering to defense. I’m not a prepper, but I do believe in self reliance and I knew my usual 5.56 would be marginal in those roles. I wanted something cheap, minute of pie plate accurate and lightweight. Fuddy was ok.

I ended up with a 22” barreled Stevens 200 with a factory FDE rubber stock (swapped out from the grey one it came with, my one vanity), a blind mag (one less thing to lose in the field) and a Nikon 1-4x in a one piece base and rings combo.

It met my needs for a bottom dollar rifle, and I liked how it turned out enough that I did a second in .223.

No cool kid points, but I figure I can anchor anything within 300M if needed. I’ve only shot it out to a lasered 470M.

Don't be.

Two of the smallest groups I have ever shot in my life with rifles have been with Savage rifles, with stocks barrels, that I did the JB & Kroil treatment with. If I find the targets I will post them.

One particular rifle, my .308, was an old long action that I put in a factory laminate stock. I exclusively shot 175 SMKs through that gun, topped with a Weaver 4-16 target scope. A couple guys made condescending remarks when they saw that gun come out of the case when I was younger, shooting at public ranges. They did not however, when I pulled targets.

In fact the best shot on a game animal I ever made was with that rifle. Certainly not the farthest, but I still consider it my best. My state police partner and I were deer hunting. Long story short he spots a deer bedded down. It took me almost 5 minutes of him directing me onto it for me to find it. All I could see was the head. Right at 400 yards. He had phenomenal eyesight. Anyways, I proned out with my rifle over my pack and rear on a sand sock. He backed me up with his .300. I did my math twice and got the same firing solution (firing on an angle). Finally after about 10 minutes, I sent a 175 grain SMK right into the Mule Deer's ear.

The deer's went down, and a leg appeared. I have made much longer shots, but I have always considered that my best one.

Savage/Stevens can be some absolute outstanding guns.

The only reason I sold my heavy barrel Savage .308 was I needed to do so to fund my "Bucket list" dream .308, the SAKO TRG. Otherwise, I never would have.

[HCM]

Don't be.

Two of the smallest groups I have ever shot in my life with rifles have been with Savage rifles, with stocks barrels, that I did the JB & Kroil treatment with. If I find the targets I will post them.

One particular rifle, my .308, was an old long action that I put in a factory laminate stock. I exclusively shot 175 SMKs through that gun, topped with a Weaver 4-16 target scope. A couple guys made condescending remarks when they saw that gun come out of the case when I was younger, shooting at public ranges. They did not however, when I pulled targets.

In fact the best shot on a game animal I ever made was with that rifle. Certainly not the farthest, but I still consider it my best. My state police partner and I were deer hunting. Long story short he spots a deer bedded down. It took me almost 5 minutes of him directing me onto it for me to find it. All I could see was the head. Right at 400 yards. He had phenomenal eyesight. Anyways, I proned out with my rifle over my pack and rear on a sand sock. He backed me up with his .300. I did my math twice and got the same firing solution (firing on an angle). Finally after about 10 minutes, I sent a 175 grain SMK right into the Mule Deer's ear.

The deer's went down, and a leg appeared. I have made much longer shots, but I have always considered that my best one.

Savage/Stevens can be some absolute outstanding guns.

The only reason I sold my heavy barrel Savage .308 was I needed to do so to fund my "Bucket list" dream .308, the SAKO TRG. Otherwise, I never would have.

Savages are good guns, tne embarrasing part is thinking 5.56 is “marginal” for self defense.

[SteveB]

Osage has the VTAC version of the Christensen Arms BA rifle on sale for $1000 off.

https://osagecountyguns.com/firearms/rifles/christensen-arms-ba-vtac-308-win-16-in-ca10271-488481.html

I've been thinking about a 16" .308 bolt rifle to run with a can, so I grabbed one up. I think the feature set on these makes $1799 an attractive price point; carbon fiber stock with adjustable LOP and comb, carbon fiber wrapped barrel, great trigger and action, takes AICS mags. I took out the buttstock spacers giving me a 13" LOP, deleted the fore end pic rail as I'm not going to be using a bipod, mounted a Leupold VX6 1-6X in NF lightweight medium rings and a VTAC sling in the flush sling swivel cups. The rifle came with a Magpul 5-rd mag; I have 10-rd mags for it. As soon as I can get to the range, I'll post shooting results.

46386

[deputyG23]

There is a Franchi Momentum .308 bolt gun at the Cabela’s up the road from me.
Gun feels good in the hands and has most of the attributes I am looking for.
22” barrel, reasonable weight, and hinged floorplate mag. No controlled feed or irons are the downside for me.
Has what appears to be a one piece Weaver Mount. Asking $499.
I have a crappy 2.5 Simmons scope and tons of scope rings to play with if I buy it.

I found a video review of this rifle. The reviewer had some difficulty operating the bolt smoothly on occasion.
Went back to Cabela’s last night and played with the rifle some more.
Two position safety does not lock the bolt and the bolt cycling is very stiff for me.
Picked up a .243 M70 featherweight from the next rack and cycled the bolt. Smooth as silk.
My own M70 ‘06 has spoiled me.
The search will continue for now unless I decide to stick with the ‘06 and sell all the .308 cases and loaded rounds..

[Mike C]

SteveB, what’s the rig weight now as setup with the rings sling and 1-6?

[SteveB]

8 lbs 13 oz.

[Mike C]

That's awesome, I look forward to your impressions though considering they only had two in stock last I looked I may just have to jump on it.

[GJM]

That's awesome, I look forward to your impressions though considering they only had two in stock last I looked I may just have to jump on it.

It was three left until I got one.

[zeleny]

I don’t see the point of push feed in a bolt action. Controlled round feeding is hard to find in shorter actions, so my bolt guns start with .30-06. Here is (https://goo.gl/photos/rgsBYkTutJAkVxjx7) my M1950 Mannlicher-Schoenauer in .30-06 Springfield, serial number 2295, currently topped with a vintage 1x Nickel scope in Recknagel mounts, to be replaced with an Aimpoint Micro T-2 and a pivot-mounted 6XMag-1. The double set trigger is getting replaced by the standard two-stage pull variant.

46460

46461

[NH Shooter]

46386

That's one kick-ass rifle.

[rob_s]

Does anyone else just keep clicking on this thread every time there’s activity in the hopes that someone posted a link to Winchester’s website showing a new M70 featherweight with iron sights and a threaded barrel?

[Poconnor]

Does anyone else just keep clicking on this thread every time there’s activity in the hopes that someone posted a link to Winchester’s website showing a new M70 featherweight with iron sights and a threaded barrel?

I didn’t before but I am now.

[SteveB]

I don’t see the point of push feed in a bolt action. Controlled round feeding is hard to find in shorter actions, so my bolt guns start with .30-06.

The point is that push feed actions are cheaper to manufacture than CRF actions. Whether push feed actions work for you personally is another question. As to the availability of CRF short actions, both Winchester and Ruger make new CRF short action rifles; they, and many used rifles, are readily available.

[GJM]

While you can build up a practical rifle on a model 70 action, and I have a number of them, it is hard to make a reasonable weight with the Winchester action. And, you won’t get features like a DBM, and the sight flexibility that we have come to enjoy with AR style rifles. If the new Sig rifle is what they say, this may be a way to get AR style features in a practical rifle weight. I really am rooting for them.

[rob_s]

While you can build up a practical rifle on a model 70 action, and I have a number of them, it is hard to make a reasonable weight with the Winchester action. And, you won’t get features like a DBM, and the sight flexibility that we have come to enjoy with AR style rifles. If the new Sig rifle is what they say, this may be a way to get AR style features in a practical rifle weight. I really am rooting for them.

this thing?
https://www.sigsauer.com/store/sig-cross-rifle.html

I know I won't buy one. For me, and I suspect I'm not alone here, there's a certain aspect of intentional anachronism. I don't have any sort of "need" for any of this, and "chassis" guns like the Sig are just wronger than two boys...

[okie john]

While you can build up a practical rifle on a model 70 action, and I have a number of them, it is hard to make a reasonable weight with the Winchester action. And, you won’t get features like a DBM, and the sight flexibility that we have come to enjoy with AR style rifles. If the new Sig rifle is what they say, this may be a way to get AR style features in a practical rifle weight. I really am rooting for them.

I’m cautiously optimistic. How fast can a shooter run the bolt on a chassis gun?


Okie John

[GJM]

I’m cautiously optimistic. How fast can a shooter run the bolt on a chassis gun?


Okie John

Not following — would taking an action and replacing a conventional stock with a chassis change how it runs?

[okie john]

Not following — would taking an action and replacing a conventional stock with a chassis change how it runs?

I’m talking about cycling the bolt manually. I've read that going from a conventional stock to an M-16 pistol grip changes the geometry and slows things down.


Okie John

[whomever]

" I've read that going from a conventional stock to an M-16 pistol grip changes the geometry and slows things down."

FWIW, I just dragged out my one chassis gun and tried rapid cycling. My sense is that the pistol grip doesn't really change things, or at least it is a small effect relative to whether it's a two lug or 3 lug bolt, how smooth the action is, the size and shape of the bolt handle, etc, etc.

When I'm trying to cycle a bolt gun fast, I usually don't wrap my thumb around the pistol grip, whether it's a conventional or AR-type gripped stock, so there really isn't all that much difference in manipulation.

But, I didn't get out the stopwatch or anything. The chassis gun is a long barrelled Savage that weighs 12 or 13 pounds, vs my other fast handling bolt gun, which is a 16 inch Ruger American Ranch, so the grips aren't the biggest difference in handling :-).

[GJM]

I have practical rifles built on modern controlled feed Winchester actions, and a bunch of hunting rifles built on original, pre 64 actions. I have been hunting pre 64 rifles for 25 years, and took rifle classes like Gunsite and Cain, with post 64 controlled feed .308 rifles. I think of the difference in actions, as like the difference between a 50’s - 70’s S&W revolver, and a lock S&W revolver. The original actions feed much better because their feed lips are integral to the action, their actions are slicker, and their triggers are better. To keep a reasonable weight with a pre 64 action, I go blind bottom metal, a fluted barrel, a Brown Precision stock, and one piece bases and rings. That creates compromises.

If the light chassis rifle works out, meaning accurate, reliable and a fast action, we have a mid 6 pound base rile that can change personality like an AR. For example, you could set it up with a VX6HD scope and a five round magazine to sheep, goat or deer hunt, then when you are packing meat around bears, go to a T1 and a ten round magazine. It is all concept now, and the proof will be how it performs in the field.

[Backspin]

I’m talking about cycling the bolt manually. I've read that going from a conventional stock to an M-16 pistol grip changes the geometry and slows things down.


Okie John

Like whomever mentioned above, running the bolt quickly with a pistol grip is technique based. A smooth action and light bolt lift helps as well.

Here’s an example of some smooth bolt running (A 20ish pound gun doesn’t hurt either!)
https://www.instagram.com/p/B1uteMPA6bP/

[SteveB]

The CA VTAC rifle shoots well, but the brake is too loud and has to go. That’s OK as I was going to use a can anyway. First 3 rounds with Barnes 150 TTSX (6X @ 100 yds):

46667

[OlongJohnson]

If one was going to just build a rifle on the Savage/Remage/Howage model, which would you choose?

Suppose an AR barrel builder well-repected for acccurate, durable and reasonably-priced products was talking about building an 18-in., threaded, melonited, Savage barrel in 6.8 (https://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?132945-Savage-Barrel-Poll)? Would that sway you?

[HeavyDuty]

If one was going to just build a rifle on the Savage/Remage/Howage model, which would you choose?

Suppose an AR barrel builder well-repected for acccurate, durable and reasonably-priced products was talking about building an 18-in., threaded, melonited, Savage barrel in 6.8 (https://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?132945-Savage-Barrel-Poll)? Would that sway you?

Not me, personally.

[SecondsCount]

If one was going to just build a rifle on the Savage/Remage/Howage model, which would you choose?

Suppose an AR barrel builder well-repected for acccurate, durable and reasonably-priced products was talking about building an 18-in., threaded, melonited, Savage barrel in 6.8 (https://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?132945-Savage-Barrel-Poll)? Would that sway you?

I would first have to ask, why 6.8?

I've built a Remage and it shoots well, and have played with a Mini Howa in 223 and they are a sweet little action. If I had my choice of the three, I would probably go Remage as there is so much more support for that action in stocks, triggers, etc.

[OlongJohnson]

I would first have to ask, why 6.8?

I've built a Remage and it shoots well, and have played with a Mini Howa in 223 and they are a sweet little action. If I had my choice of the three, I would probably go Remage as there is so much more support for that action in stocks, triggers, etc.

I've had an itch for a 6.8 bolt gun for years.

I love me some Howa action. If I ever lose my mind and do the 6mm Rem AI project I can't quite get out of my head, it will probably be a Howage.

I also like that Remington sells unbarreled actions. They aren't too expensive. Makes a decent starting point for a Remage.

But if ARP does a run of drop-in Savage barrels, they will likely be about half the price, maybe less, of a typical custom barrel. And it will have rifling and chamber that's state-of-the-art from a (if not the) 6.8 specialist. That and a PTG bolt head should be the easy button. Drop them in a Savage Lightweight Hunter .223 with walnut stock that's listed at 5.5 lb from the factory. Stock can be lightened further. Wouldn't be the cheapest build, but probably the simplest way to get it done.

[SecondsCount]

Sounds like you have made up your mind! :cool:

[OlongJohnson]

I'm certainly open to better ideas or an explanation of why this would be a dumb one.

[SecondsCount]

I'm certainly open to better ideas or an explanation of why this would be a dumb one.
I won't say you are dumb but be careful.

If you plan on building something you really want, and keeping it forever, then go for it. Resale value on these kind of builds, especially in a rare caliber, is pretty poor.

I picked up a 223AI build a few years ago for a song because of this. Only a few people really want that caliber and it sat for sale for a long time before the guy accepted my offer, which was $800 less than what he was asking. If I sell it, I will probably have it rechambered in 223 at a cost of about $150, and will broaden the market.

[OlongJohnson]

Or just keep the .223 barrel around and screw it back on if I decide to bail.

[SteveB]

If one was going to just build a rifle on the Savage/Remage/Howage model, which would you choose?

If I had to choose from these 3, I’d pick the R700 if for no other reason than it will drop right into a Magpul Hunter stock, with DBM bottom metal.

[SteveB]

I replaced the CA brake with the new model AAC brake/flash hider/suppressor mount, and can now mount my AAC .30 cal can; good balance, shooting report to follow.

46989

46988

[Wise_A]

If I had to choose from these 3, I’d pick the R700 if for no other reason than it will drop right into a Magpul Hunter stock, with DBM bottom metal.

I love my Savage, but between the sheer number of stocks/chassis I can't use, and the bolt lift, there are a lot of reasons I wish it was a Remington.

I think my next gun--really an experiment in learning to assemble a rifle with a prefit barrel--I think I'd be inclined to either start with a trued-up Remington action ($420-$500ish), or just buy a /r/gundeals gun and part it out. If I was spending real money, I would just skip it all and go to a Defiance Tenacity or other push-feed custom action, some of which share the 700's footprint. Custom actions look expensive, but there's a lot of value in the big price tag, presuming you actually want all that stuff.

[HeavyDuty]

I love my Savage, but between the sheer number of stocks/chassis I can't use, and the bolt lift, there are a lot of reasons I wish it was a Remington.

I think my next gun--really an experiment in learning to assemble a rifle with a prefit barrel--I think I'd be inclined to either start with a trued-up Remington action ($420-$500ish), or just buy a /r/gundeals gun and part it out. If I was spending real money, I would just skip it all and go to a Defiance Tenacity or other push-feed custom action, some of which share the 700's footprint. Custom actions look expensive, but there's a lot of value in the big price tag, presuming you actually want all that stuff.

I know what you mean. I personally keep looking at Tikkas for a near off the shelf rifle.

[Wise_A]

The sin of it is, the Tikka action would be a fine place to start a build. The problem is that Sako won't sell you just the action. They insist on attaching barrels to them, and allegedly, they are a monster to get off. For the price of a T3 Lite once you sold the barrel, I think that a Tikka action would be a "thinking shooter's" buy over the similarly-priced trued Remington action. The Remington might be nicer than the factory Tikka in terms of dimensions, but the Tikka would just be...well, nicer.

[zeleny]

The point is that push feed actions are cheaper to manufacture than CRF actions. Whether push feed actions work for you personally is another question. As to the availability of CRF short actions, both Winchester and Ruger make new CRF short action rifles; they, and many used rifles, are readily available.I have around $600 in the rig shown above. I would rate it above any Winchester ever made, let alone a Ruger.

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

If the light chassis rifle works out, meaning accurate, reliable and a fast action, we have a mid 6 pound base rile that can change personality like an AR. For example, you could set it up with a VX6HD scope and a five round magazine to sheep, goat or deer hunt, then when you are packing meat around bears, go to a T1 and a ten round magazine. It is all concept now, and the proof will be how it performs in the field.

The Cross seems seems pretty similar in concept and execution to "The Fix" by Q.

https://www.liveqordie.com/products/the-fix-by-q/

I haven't followed that product closely enough to know if there are any glaring issues, but it might be worth looking into.

[OlongJohnson]

There's a thread on the Cross. Worth reading, including for the comments about The Fix.

[Bigghoss]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7yS8hK6vlE

[StraitR]

The Cross seems seems pretty similar in concept and execution to "The Fix" by Q.

https://www.liveqordie.com/products/the-fix-by-q/

I haven't followed that product closely enough to know if there are any glaring issues, but it might be worth looking into.

That's because Kevin Brittingham, who founded Advanced Armament Corporation, went to work for Sig Sauer about five years after selling AAC to Remington. He left Sig Sauer four years ago to start a new company, named Q. Many of the current Sig design elements are from Kevin, and are also found on products from Q. The Cross rifle is coming out pretty late though, so this is likely more of a copycat product than something he worked on at Sig (IMO).

[SteveB]

I’m talking about cycling the bolt manually. I've read that going from a conventional stock to an M-16 pistol grip changes the geometry and slows things down.


Okie John

Since I shoot bolt rifles with my thumb on the right side of the stock or pistol grip, stock type does not affect cycling speed.

[HeavyDuty]

Since I shoot bolt rifles with my thumb on the right side of the stock or pistol grip, stock type does not affect cycling speed.

The stock on my new rifle (a DD Delta 5) is actually designed for this. Wrapping your thumb is *very* uncomfortable.

[Seven_Sicks_Two]

That's because Kevin Brittingham, who founded Advanced Armament Corporation, went to work for Sig Sauer about five years after selling AAC to Remington. He left Sig Sauer four years ago to start a new company, named Q. Many of the current Sig design elements are from Kevin, and are also found on products from Q. The Cross rifle is coming out pretty late though, so this is likely more of a copycat product than something he worked on at Sig (IMO).

Yeah, I've followed all that drama for awhile. I was just trying to be a bit more diplomatic than just straight-up calling it a knock-off (which I think it is).

[OlongJohnson]

I've had an itch for a 6.8 bolt gun for years.

I love me some Howa action. If I ever lose my mind and do the 6mm Rem AI project I can't quite get out of my head, it will probably be a Howage.

I also like that Remington sells unbarreled actions. They aren't too expensive. Makes a decent starting point for a Remage.

But if ARP does a run of drop-in Savage barrels, they will likely be about half the price, maybe less, of a typical custom barrel. And it will have rifling and chamber that's state-of-the-art from a (if not the) 6.8 specialist. That and a PTG bolt head should be the easy button. Drop them in a Savage Lightweight Hunter .223 with walnut stock that's listed at 5.5 lb from the factory. Stock can be lightened further. Wouldn't be the cheapest build, but probably the simplest way to get it done.


I love my Savage, but between the sheer number of stocks/chassis I can't use, and the bolt lift, there are a lot of reasons I wish it was a Remington.

I think my next gun--really an experiment in learning to assemble a rifle with a prefit barrel--I think I'd be inclined to either start with a trued-up Remington action ($420-$500ish), or just buy a /r/gundeals gun and part it out. If I was spending real money, I would just skip it all and go to a Defiance Tenacity or other push-feed custom action, some of which share the 700's footprint. Custom actions look expensive, but there's a lot of value in the big price tag, presuming you actually want all that stuff.


I know what you mean. I personally keep looking at Tikkas for a near off the shelf rifle.

Finally got detailed and noted out the build for weight, tech details, etc. Decided a Tikka in .260 Rem or 6.5CM is simply a better option than the Savage project as I contemplate it in pretty much every regard, except for barrel length and threading. One can make do...

Tikka, Warne rings, Leupold glass and go make meat continues to be the KISS formula.

[JakeL]

My take on compact handy bolt action rifle. Tikka T3 Lite 30-06. About 42" lenght and weight is 7,7lbs with Leupold Freedom 1,5-4 scope, empty 5 round magazine and 3hgr driven sling. Recoil pad is Limbsaver. I could shave little weight and lenght by shortening barrel and stock, using lighter sling and scope rings but I kind of like it as is. Good and accurate shooter distances up to 150 meters. Recoil is also quite manageable.

https://youtu.be/mWP35pFNMF8

[Slow Roper]

After a lot of fits and starts to select a pseudo-scout rifle for myself, I finally landed on a used Browning A-Bolt Micro Hunter with a 3-9x Zeiss scope mounted normally. As a large guy, the shorter length of pull is the only a minor annoyance, but one easily mitigated with a slip on recoil pad.

The 20’’ barrel works well with the .308 rounds I prefer for hunting, and it is a pleasure to carry in the woods or on the Ranger.

It doesn’t meet Col. Cooper’s Scout criteria for most features, but it hits the main ones for me: weight, length, and effectiveness at range.

Not a common choice, but it has put a lot of meat on out table.

[DacoRoman]

OP update. I got embroiled in being too busy with life and fell off the shooting wagon, it downright shameful to admit. This whole corona, not the Mexican beer, business also put my traveling plans through CA this year on hold. If you remember, I think I mentioned it, I wanted said rifle as a good all around rifle to have even while traveling through restrictive states, like CA. I was going to do a few epic Overlanding 4x4 trips through the West, including CA. I'll have to put this off this year most likely.

I've finally managed to catch up with this thread. I once again thank all of you that have contributed and kept the conversation going.

I have to say I'm still conflicted as to the direction I'll go. It may be like Rob wrote…maybe we are all now waiting for a Model 70 LW with synthetic stock and threaded barrel! Part of me wants that, and part of me says just go with a Tika or a Steyr scout and be done with it. The hypothetical perfect rifle is the enemy of the good enough rifle that I could have now. But, because my need is not as acute, I'll probably temporize for now and look at what keeps popping up throughout this year and plan to purchase something this Christmas.

In the meanwhile I'm adventuring around North Arizona where I don’t have to worry about any lame restrictions, happy days.

https://i.imgur.com/Qn6JNqH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PtwmUeT.jpg

In the meantime I finally got my AR10 put together which is the first gun related thing I've managed to do in a while.

[StraitR]

^^^^^^^ Copious amounts of WIN going on right there. ^^^^^^^

[DacoRoman]

^^^^^^^ Copious amounts of WIN going on right there. ^^^^^^^

Thanks buddy, I really appreciate that. :)

BTW my son (he’s 7) dreams about being an operator for CAG, and always wants to bring his Airsoft M4 Commando out on our adventures but I don’t feel right about him spraying plastic airsoft BB’s, even the biodegradable ones, out in the wilderness. So Red Rider BB gun it is....at least he’s got his restrictive State rifle already squared away :D

[Dov]

Thanks buddy, I really appreciate that. :)

BTW my son (he’s 7) dreams about being an operator for CAG, and always wants to bring his Airsoft M4 Commando out on our adventures but I don’t feel right about him spraying plastic airsoft BB’s, even the biodegradable ones, out in the wilderness. So Red Rider BB gun it is....at least he’s got his restrictive State rifle already squared away :D

I'm curious which brand of RTT are you using there? How warm is it in winter, since one picture show it being used in the snow?

I've thought about either RTT or Teardrop trailer, though I won't being doing any real off roading more just want something thats more cable than fullsize RV rig and we've got a SUV already.

[DacoRoman]

I'm curious which brand of RTT are you using there? How warm is it in winter, since one picture show it being used in the snow?

I've thought about either RTT or Teardrop trailer, though I won't being doing any real off roading more just want something thats more cable than fullsize RV rig and we've got a SUV already.

It’s a free spirit adventure manual 55”. We have the regular tent fabric version. They do make a “tri layer” version that has much thicker fabric and if you’d be in cold weather more often than not, I’d consider adding the tri-layer option if you go with any of their tents.

But even in our regular thin skin model we’ve camped when overnight temperatures have hit the low to mid 20’s, so could have been worse, but still pretty chilly. What makes it very comfortable is the fact that I added an additional 2” memory foam mattress (for a total of about 4.5” of floor insulation) and have a 0 degree two person sleeping bag with a flannel liner for the winter time. Compared to a ground tent experience, especially in the winter with snow etc., it’s as if I’m staying at the Ritz. It’s downright awesome. I use a much thinner bag for the spring, and only a thin blanket or just a bedsheet for the summer.

But again if you go much colder than the mid 20’s I’d get the tri-layer, or a similar type tent with more insulation...or yeah a teardrop trailer of some sort especially since you won’t be off-roading.

I do quite a bit of off roading, and if you do end up wanting an off-road set up, the RTT set up works really well as it will allow you the most off-roading ability. Case in point, I am thinking of getting a simple relatively light weight off road trailer to put my tent on and pack it with my supplies; but this winter I went up some pretty gnarly snowy/muddy trails which I don’t think I would have attempted with even a “ light weight” trailer.

I hope this helps, let me know if you have any other questions about it. Good luck on your search.

[SecondsCount]

OP update.
....
In the meanwhile I'm adventuring around North Arizona where I don’t have to worry about any lame restrictions, happy days.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/Qn6JNqH.jpg[img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/PtwmUeT.jpg[img]

In the meantime I finally got my AR10 put together which is the first gun related thing I've managed to do in a while.

Those are some awesome pics, reminds me of mine when he was a boy.

Now he is all grown up, runs a BCM/LMT setup, and marches with his buddies on the capitol when they threaten his gun rights.

51089

[Maple Syrup Actual]

A slightly different take on things: just for fun, I built a Remington 783 into a mag fed, pretty lightweight precision gun that ended up shooting to a mean radius of 0.31 MOA at 525 yards.

Whole gun, including the optic, the bottom metal and the magazine, was under a thousand hockey pesos. In the US this whole package would probably be like six hundred bucks.

I mention this mainly to say: you practically can't get this wrong. You take a rifle and shoot it, it's going to do the job.

Not very interesting to the Steyr Scout buyers among us, but for people who want to feel scouty and spend plinky,

https://calibremag.ca/remington-783-budget-build-0-3-moa-for-under-1000/

[okie john]

...hockey pesos.

Brilliant line.

That article is also one of the funniest things I've read in ages.

Thanks.


Okie John

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Thanks - that was a fun project and the style of writing I actually enjoyed doing.

The guy mentioned in that article, Nick, is an awesome guy, good friend of mine and survivor of I think 3 ECQCs? Maybe one EWO and two ECQC. Solid judo base, tough guy, funny guy, and a very experienced privateer...teaches a very good tactical medicine course, actually. Lots of dirt time in Africa getting paid to make some sections of red dirt wetter and redder, and keep other parts of it from getting any redder than it is. While I was screwing around with my ghetto blaster, he was shooting a Desert Tech SRS with a Premier Reticles scope...I was glad I shot it after my rifle, not before.

We have a tentative plan to invade somewhere with beaches using all the local pros (and me, presumably to document things) if this C19 thing gets any worse. I will keep BigT in the loop if my suggestion, Namibia, gets enough votes.

[Dov]

It’s a free spirit adventure manual 55”. We have the regular tent fabric version. They do make a “tri layer” version that has much thicker fabric and if you’d be in cold weather more often than not, I’d consider adding the tri-layer option if you go with any of their tents.

But even in our regular thin skin model we’ve camped when overnight temperatures have hit the low to mid 20’s, so could have been worse, but still pretty chilly. What makes it very comfortable is the fact that I added an additional 2” memory foam mattress (for a total of about 4.5” of floor insulation) and have a 0 degree two person sleeping bag with a flannel liner for the winter time. Compared to a ground tent experience, especially in the winter with snow etc., it’s as if I’m staying at the Ritz. It’s downright awesome. I use a much thinner bag for the spring, and only a thin blanket or just a bedsheet for the summer.

But again if you go much colder than the mid 20’s I’d get the tri-layer, or a similar type tent with more insulation...or yeah a teardrop trailer of some sort especially since you won’t be off-roading.

I do quite a bit of off roading, and if you do end up wanting an off-road set up, the RTT set up works really well as it will allow you the most off-roading ability. Case in point, I am thinking of getting a simple relatively light weight off road trailer to put my tent on and pack it with my supplies; but this winter I went up some pretty gnarly snowy/muddy trails which I don’t think I would have attempted with even a “ light weight” trailer.

I hope this helps, let me know if you have any other questions about it. Good luck on your search.

Thanks.

It's been awhile since I looked into this stuff, lost many of my notes on old PC never got around to backing up.

I'd looked real hard at I think it was AT Trailers like the Horizon & Chaser as platform to mount RTT on, and was real interested in the Maggiolina RTT. I tend to have expensive tastes :)

But I know at my current age and health issues I'm not going to try and get stuck off roading, more just want to be able to get away from crowds & both gf & myself are very casually interested in Astronomy so its nice to be able to get away from city lights with some comfort for meteor showers and such.

I also looked at some neat Toy Hauler trailers that were designed to also work as RV trailer, had sort of kitchenette at front of trailer, can't recall brand name or owner's name but exchanged email with them. That would probably more practical choice for us since gf could use it for her part time business for half the year or so in normal times.

[DacoRoman]

Those are some awesome pics, reminds me of mine when he was a boy.

Now he is all grown up, runs a BCM/LMT setup, and marches with his buddies on the capitol when they threaten his gun rights.

51089

Thanks!

God bless and Godspeed to your awesome Patriot son! It’s nice to see a young man with a good mindset in this day and age! I’m sure he takes after his dad.

[DacoRoman]

A slightly different take on things: just for fun, I built a Remington 783 into a mag fed, pretty lightweight precision gun that ended up shooting to a mean radius of 0.31 MOA at 525 yards.

Whole gun, including the optic, the bottom metal and the magazine, was under a thousand hockey pesos. In the US this whole package would probably be like six hundred bucks.

I mention this mainly to say: you practically can't get this wrong. You take a rifle and shoot it, it's going to do the job.

Not very interesting to the Steyr Scout buyers among us, but for people who want to feel scouty and spend plinky,

https://calibremag.ca/remington-783-budget-build-0-3-moa-for-under-1000/

That looks great. I need to study it. Thanks for posting.

[DacoRoman]

Thanks.

It's been awhile since I looked into this stuff, lost many of my notes on old PC never got around to backing up.

I'd looked real hard at I think it was AT Trailers like the Horizon & Chaser as platform to mount RTT on, and was real interested in the Maggiolina RTT. I tend to have expensive tastes :)

But I know at my current age and health issues I'm not going to try and get stuck off roading, more just want to be able to get away from crowds & both gf & myself are very casually interested in Astronomy so its nice to be able to get away from city lights with some comfort for meteor showers and such.

I also looked at some neat Toy Hauler trailers that were designed to also work as RV trailer, had sort of kitchenette at front of trailer, can't recall brand name or owner's name but exchanged email with them. That would probably more practical choice for us since gf could use it for her part time business for half the year or so in normal times.

I totally get where you are coming from. At one point I was thinking of going for a very expensive Carbon fiber maggiolina. I then decided to go with something more economical to see if I even like the whole RTT thing. Well it turns out that I really do like it.

I don’t know much about enclosed sleeper trailers but it sounds like that may give the most comfort and still allow for light off road/unpaved areas. For trailers designed for RTT’s but with fully built in kitchens and water have you seen the very expensive and very impressive Patriot trailers, from Australia? Turtle back trailers from AZ are also very nice.

I am not familiar with the ones you mentioned and I’ll be checking them out.

Going out there with a telescope sounds like a great time. My wife has an app on her iPhone that you point at regions in the sky and it shows you constellations and planets. What would be a good entry level but good telescope one could buy?

[SecondsCount]

A slightly different take on things: just for fun, I built a Remington 783...

Whole gun, including the optic, the bottom metal and the magazine, was under a thousand hockey pesos. In the US this whole package would probably be like six hundred bucks.

I mention this mainly to say: you practically can't get this wrong. You take a rifle and shoot it, it's going to do the job.


https://calibremag.ca/remington-783-budget-build-0-3-moa-for-under-1000/
I am a big fan of the Remington 783 and if people ask me about which budget rifle to buy, this is the one that I recommend. The 783 is based on the Marlin X7, as Remington had purchased Marlin in 2007.

My experience with either model was limited until a good friend purchased one on a whim because of a $75 rebate. I think he ended up paying $280 after the rebate. He bought one in 223, brought it home and put a scope on it, made some reloads, and proceeded to shoot sub MOA groups at 100 yards.

Now we both have some nice rifles...trued actions, aftermarket match grade barrels, high end stocks, etc, but we thought this would be a fun experiment to see what we could do for little cost and effort. I ended up with a 223 as well for a little bit more, $300 if I remember correctly, but I had problems. The first trip to the range was disappointing as getting it zeroed at 50 yards was difficult and moving to 100 was a disaster. The bullets were keyholing. The 223 versions have a 1:9 twist but this gun wouldn't stabilize anything I tried including 55, 62, or 69 grain bullets.

A call into Remington generated a call tag. I sent the rifle to back and a few weeks later, they called to tell me the entire rifle was going to be replaced under warranty. When the new rifle arrived, I immediately took it to the range. This range requires you to shoot at 50 yards before moving to the 300 yard range and this was my first 3 shot group after I zeroed-

51124

After that I proceeded to 100 yards and shot some groups with the cheesy chinese scope that came on the gun.

51129

Not bad for a $300 rifle that included the scope. Load was a Hornady 62 BTHP with TAC.

I now have changed the scope to a Cabelas Covenant 6-24 FFP and shot on steel out to 675. One of these days my friend, who lives in another state, is going to join me and we will attempt to shoot out to 1000 yards. We both have been working on a new load with the Nosler 70 RDF that looks real promising.

All I have done so far is change the scope and adjust the trigger, and have no plans to do anything else. The stock isn't bad for what it is and the magazine that came with the gun works well enough. I just wish they would put a 1:8 twist in these so I could shoot the higher BC bullets.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Interesting - yeah, I think they're capable of shocking performance for what they are. I guess if I'd been just a tiny bit smarter I would have hit mine with camo spraypaint and just told everyone it was a full custom build from some obscure precision guy trying to make a name for himself, and then I would have seemed like a high-dollar guy with a lot of connections, instead of a guy with a cheap-ass rifle.

But man, it couldn't shoot much better than it does. I keep fighting back the desire to buy a Bergara by telling myself "that won't do anything your 783 won't already do."

I mean you just can't complain about those targets.

[okie john]

Interesting - yeah, I think they're capable of shocking performance for what they are. I guess if I'd been just a tiny bit smarter I would have hit mine with camo spraypaint and just told everyone it was a full custom build from some obscure precision guy trying to make a name for himself, and then I would have seemed like a high-dollar guy with a lot of connections, instead of a guy with a cheap-ass rifle.

But man, it couldn't shoot much better than it does. I keep fighting back the desire to buy a Bergara by telling myself "that won't do anything your 783 won't already do."

I mean you just can't complain about those targets.

Yep. Same goes for Tikkas, Ruger Americans, the TC Compass, etc.


Okie John

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Yep. Same goes for Tikkas, Ruger Americans, the TC Compass, etc.


Okie John

Totally true. We're living in an age of dirt cheap precision to which our dad's rifles would never aspire; it's almost absurd. Five hundred bucks, go shoot, you're all set. Unreal.

[peterb]

Thanks - that was a fun project and the style of writing I actually enjoyed doing.

Nice work! I have no need for that kind of rifle, but as a compulsive tinkerer the article makes me want to go futz around with one...just to futz around with one. Hopeless. :)

[LOBO]

Remington model Seven seems like a good option. I have one from the first year of production that is in 7mm-08 with the 18.5" barrel. It is one hell of a deer rifle.

[Dov]

I totally get where you are coming from. At one point I was thinking of going for a very expensive Carbon fiber maggiolina. I then decided to go with something more economical to see if I even like the whole RTT thing. Well it turns out that I really do like it.

I don’t know much about enclosed sleeper trailers but it sounds like that may give the most comfort and still allow for light off road/unpaved areas. For trailers designed for RTT’s but with fully built in kitchens and water have you seen the very expensive and very impressive Patriot trailers, from Australia? Turtle back trailers from AZ are also very nice.

I am not familiar with the ones you mentioned and I’ll be checking them out.

Going out there with a telescope sounds like a great time. My wife has an app on her iPhone that you point at regions in the sky and it shows you constellations and planets. What would be a good entry level but good telescope one could buy?

Yeah all kinds of really cool trailers the Aussies have, I generally just drool a little over their stuff and don't even bookmark it because $$$ to get it here.

I don't pretend to be able to give real advice about glass for Astronomy, I would recommend site like https://www.bestbinocularsreviews.com/binoculars-for-astronomy.php to get started on that. Plus publications like Sky & Telescope https://skyandtelescope.org/

If you have binoculars or spotting scope already you could use that to start before spending money on new glass, bigger objectives and good exit pupal like night/marine binocs will do a lot IMHO but even basic binoculars will let you see more. Might need to get a different tripod or something like car window mount if you don't have something that provides enough elevation already. I wouldn't try using hand held binocs for very long with sky watching.

Just like hunting & shooting glass prices go up real quickly.

A few years ago I got gf Astronomy binoculars for Christmas from that review link and a tripod to start with, we will probably spend money on telescope eventually. My thoughts were that binoculars were less expensive and easier to use, and even if we do decide to get a telescope having one person on binocs and one on telescope makes sense for astronomy just like it would for varmint hunting or spotter sniper team. Additionally Astronomy binoculars are basically night binoculars, a lower tech Nightvision, so they can do double duty in that mode.

I'm sure there are several good apps, we got Pocket Universe https://apps.apple.com/us/app/pocket-universe/id306916838 on recommendation of Brian Klug that used to work for Anandtech. Used to talk to him occasionally on Twitter before he moved to Apple, he's a REALLY smart person and was into Astronomy/Optics in college. Even Anand, who I consider very intelligent, would comment sometimes about how Brian's thinking just worked different/better than most people.

[DacoRoman]

Yeah all kinds of really cool trailers the Aussies have, I generally just drool a little over their stuff and don't even bookmark it because $$$ to get it here.

I don't pretend to be able to give real advice about glass for Astronomy, I would recommend site like https://www.bestbinocularsreviews.com/binoculars-for-astronomy.php to get started on that. Plus publications like Sky & Telescope https://skyandtelescope.org/

If you have binoculars or spotting scope already you could use that to start before spending money on new glass, bigger objectives and good exit pupal like night/marine binocs will do a lot IMHO but even basic binoculars will let you see more. Might need to get a different tripod or something like car window mount if you don't have something that provides enough elevation already. I wouldn't try using hand held binocs for very long with sky watching.

Just like hunting & shooting glass prices go up real quickly.

A few years ago I got gf Astronomy binoculars for Christmas from that review link and a tripod to start with, we will probably spend money on telescope eventually. My thoughts were that binoculars were less expensive and easier to use, and even if we do decide to get a telescope having one person on binocs and one on telescope makes sense for astronomy just like it would for varmint hunting or spotter sniper team. Additionally Astronomy binoculars are basically night binoculars, a lower tech Nightvision, so they can do double duty in that mode.

I'm sure there are several good apps, we got Pocket Universe https://apps.apple.com/us/app/pocket-universe/id306916838 on recommendation of Brian Klug that used to work for Anandtech. Used to talk to him occasionally on Twitter before he moved to Apple, he's a REALLY smart person and was into Astronomy/Optics in college. Even Anand, who I consider very intelligent, would comment sometimes about how Brian's thinking just worked different/better than most people.

Awesome, thanks for the great info! I have some spots that would be absolutely perfect for star and planet gazing and I really wanna give it a go!

[Dov]

Awesome, thanks for the great info! I have some spots that would be absolutely perfect for star and planet gazing and I really wanna give it a go!

Your very welcome.

On positive note Stargazing away from town should be virus safe, so if your situation allows time for it now I think it'd be good couple/family activity.

Not sure of your local climate, but I've found here in Midwest outside of winter months mosquitoes to be a right pain for watching meteor showers and such. Part of that is mosquitoes like me far better than other people, so we sometimes sit in the SUV and on slight incline if possible so can use both windshield & sunroof/moonroof with all windows shut to watch.

Thats why when we do get a telescope I plan to make sure have the right brackets & gear to set scope up outside and view via smartphone or other digital camera to tablet or laptop screen away from the bugs when they are bad.

One positive for midwest winter star gazing with good winter gear is one can be quite cozy and avoid straining neck by making bed in the snow.

[Chuck Whitlock]

So, after reading Misanthropist's excellent article, I started snooping around Remington's site and found this:

https://www.remington.com/rifles/bolt-action/model-seven/model-seven-laminate

Adding the DBM from PTG:

http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/remington-model-7-detachable-mag-bottom-metal/3370-model-7-stealth-dbm-for-aics-mags.html

..would yield a pretty damn Scouty rifle, with rifle sights and everything. Personally, all I'd need to do is lop off 1-2" off the stock, which would be easier to do with the laminated wood than synthetic, although this would be a lot cheaper to buy-in:

https://www.remington.com/rifles/bolt-action/model-783/model-783-synthetic-heavy-barrel

[OlongJohnson]

I like that idea. Not that I need any more .308s.

https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/remington%2085963

The synthetic is ~1.5 lb heavier with a shorter barrel, per the listed specs. Also, there are aftermarket options to upgrade the Rem factory rifle sights (assuming they're like the 700 and 870 sights) that just drop right onto the factory ramps. Another nice thing about laminate is you can always shave it down and make it even lighter. Just be careful of the dust. Wear an N95 like it's made of covid - it will screw your lungs up for real.

[jrm]

I totally get where you are coming from. At one point I was thinking of going for a very expensive Carbon fiber maggiolina. I then decided to go with something more economical to see if I even like the whole RTT thing. Well it turns out that I really do like it.

I don’t know much about enclosed sleeper trailers but it sounds like that may give the most comfort and still allow for light off road/unpaved areas. For trailers designed for RTT’s but with fully built in kitchens and water have you seen the very expensive and very impressive Patriot trailers, from Australia? Turtle back trailers from AZ are also very nice.

I am not familiar with the ones you mentioned and I’ll be checking them out.

Going out there with a telescope sounds like a great time. My wife has an app on her iPhone that you point at regions in the sky and it shows you constellations and planets. What would be a good entry level but good telescope one could buy?
https://shop.astronomerswithoutborders.org/products/awb-onesky-reflector-telescope I would highly recommend this telescope for entry level and fairly portable. You need a table or stool to set it on though. A cheap scope may be ok but a cheap tripod will be misery.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

So, after reading Misanthropist's excellent article, I started snooping around Remington's site and found this:

https://www.remington.com/rifles/bolt-action/model-seven/model-seven-laminate

Adding the DBM from PTG:

http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/remington-model-7-detachable-mag-bottom-metal/3370-model-7-stealth-dbm-for-aics-mags.html

..would yield a pretty damn Scouty rifle, with rifle sights and everything. Personally, all I'd need to do is lop off 1-2" off the stock, which would be easier to do with the laminated wood than synthetic, although this would be a lot cheaper to buy-in:

https://www.remington.com/rifles/bolt-action/model-783/model-783-synthetic-heavy-barrel
Glad you enjoyed it also - that Seven is sure classier than my plasti-puncher, plus the irons are a nice addition.

I do like the prices on the no-frills heavies, though.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Glad you enjoyed it also - that Seven is sure classier than my plasti-puncher, plus the irons are a nice addition.

I do like the prices on the no-frills heavies, though.

I've enjoyed everything I've read that you've written.....you have a style and sense of humor that I enjoy reading.

I noticed that PTG also makes DBM for Ruger 77 series, which opens a whole realm of possablities, albeit sans irons.

[OlongJohnson]

So, after reading Misanthropist's excellent article, I started snooping around Remington's site and found this:

https://www.remington.com/rifles/bolt-action/model-seven/model-seven-laminate

May stay reasonably priced:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/863562040

[okie john]

So, after reading Misanthropist's excellent article, I started snooping around Remington's site and found this:

https://www.remington.com/rifles/bolt-action/model-seven/model-seven-laminate

Adding the DBM from PTG:

http://pacifictoolandgauge.com/remington-model-7-detachable-mag-bottom-metal/3370-model-7-stealth-dbm-for-aics-mags.html

..would yield a pretty damn Scouty rifle, with rifle sights and everything. Personally, all I'd need to do is lop off 1-2" off the stock, which would be easier to do with the laminated wood than synthetic, although this would be a lot cheaper to buy-in:

https://www.remington.com/rifles/bolt-action/model-783/model-783-synthetic-heavy-barrel

A Scout is supposed to be easy to use for fast offhand shots. Neither of the Model 7s that I owned were worth a hoot for that because the balance is so far aft that the muzzles floated all over the map. This would likely be worse with a laminated stock since laminate is so much heavier than wood and there’s a honkin’ big mass of it aft of the pistol grip.

Pre-war Mannlicher-Schoenauer and Mauser carbines have full-length stocks and steel nose caps to shift weight forward so they balance properly. Mounting a Scout scope on the barrel does the same thing, but it would probably take a medium-taper 22” barrel to make an M-7 balance well. Anything you add that sits aft of the forward action screw, like a conventional scope or DBM, will only make things worse. To quote a very experienced elk hunter from another board, "Stock heavy, barrel light. As poor a still-hunting rifle as I've ever owned.”


Okie John

[rob_s]

May stay reasonably priced:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/863562040

That’s intriguing...

[Navin Johnson]

Glad you enjoyed it also - that Seven is sure classier than my plasti-puncher, plus the irons are a nice addition.

I do like the prices on the no-frills heavies, though.

Do these Rem., TC, Howa, Ruger American etc. (sub $400) rifles show durability vs. the next step up like a Bergara or Tikka or Model 70 ($800ish)?

I know these cheap guns are capable but in the long run would it pay off to buy a more expensive rifle?

Thanks

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Well, my experience is limited to exactly one 783.

But it's hard for me to see what part of it would be notably vulnerable; I guess conceivably you could break the stock. Although I would also guess that if you filled it with expanding foam that it would become extremely rigid; that works for fibreglass boats.

Nothing about the bearing surfaces in the action jumped out at me as being undersized or prone to damage...but I guess it's possible there's some vulnerability in there I didn't notice. But I doubt it's more fragile than a 700, say, and that seems to have served its purpose in plenty of harsh environments.

Certainly possible that something else is tougher. But I don't think you would see a consistent, reliable increase in durability by stepping up in price. I think it's more likely that there are standout models from this manufacturer or that which are particularly robust, and ones which are fragile, and I don't think it would necessarily map onto price in any kind of predictable way.

Just a guess, though.

[OlongJohnson]

I haven't owned a Howa mini action, but I can say the standard short and long actions are the Toyota Land Cruiser of bolt-action rifles. Kinda heavy, but built phenomenally well. Every bit of Japanese quality, especially when they were polished blue or stainless, rather than rough or cerakoted. Only wart is the bolt stop screw, but that's an easy lathe project to fix.

[okie john]

Do these Rem., TC, Howa, Ruger American etc. (sub $400) rifles show durability vs. the next step up like a Bergara or Tikka or Model 70 ($800ish)?

I know these cheap guns are capable but in the long run would it pay off to buy a more expensive rifle?

That depends on your intended use plus what you want from the aftermarket and the knowledge base.

I’ve tried a Howa and two Tikkas because they’re known for accuracy, but that didn’t pan out because I’m a shitty benchrest shooter and I lack the attention span to develop match-grade handloads.

After I sold them, I bought a Remington 700 package rifle https://www.remington.com/rifles/bolt-action/model-700/model-700-adl-stainless-synthetic-scope Cost was between a 783 and a Tikka. It’s a rugged, proven design. Top-notch parts and accessories are commonly available. Almost any gunsmith can work on them and may even have parts on hand. None of that is true for the newer rifles you mentioned, at least not yet.

After I upgraded the scope and mounts, I started testing common factory loads. So far it’s reliably under 1.5 MOA with several of them and sub-MOA with two of the cheaper ones. That’s better than the Howa and midway between the two Tikkas with the same type of ammo, but again, I'm the limiting factor.

Howa has been common here for decades; Tikka is getting there. They’re good rifles. The others are unknowns for now, especially for extended use or harsh conditions, and I don’t want to be the guinea pig if anything goes wrong.

My 700 will hang with any of them, plus lots of people know how to fix it cheaply, easily, and quickly.


Okie John

[DacoRoman]

Your very welcome.

On positive note Stargazing away from town should be virus safe, so if your situation allows time for it now I think it'd be good couple/family activity.

Not sure of your local climate, but I've found here in Midwest outside of winter months mosquitoes to be a right pain for watching meteor showers and such. Part of that is mosquitoes like me far better than other people, so we sometimes sit in the SUV and on slight incline if possible so can use both windshield & sunroof/moonroof with all windows shut to watch.

Thats why when we do get a telescope I plan to make sure have the right brackets & gear to set scope up outside and view via smartphone or other digital camera to tablet or laptop screen away from the bugs when they are bad.

One positive for midwest winter star gazing with good winter gear is one can be quite cozy and avoid straining neck by making bed in the snow.

Yeah bugs! I moved to North AZ a little more than a year ago from Georgia...the mosquitoes and "no see 'ems" were a nightmare in GA. Here it isn't nearly so bad. In Sedona there are mosquitos but a little spray will send them running. Ironically I've camped only in the winter, spring and fall around N. AZ. This year will be the first time we are planning on going during the Summer, but we plan to go only at the higher elevations to stay away from the high heat.

I like your high tech solutions to the pesky mosquito problem!

[DacoRoman]

https://shop.astronomerswithoutborders.org/products/awb-onesky-reflector-telescope I would highly recommend this telescope for entry level and fairly portable. You need a table or stool to set it on though. A cheap scope may be ok but a cheap tripod will be misery.

Many thanks for the suggestion. I'll be checking it out. Great point about the tripod, makes total sense..sort of like balancing a scoped rifle on a thin stick I guess!

[rob_s]

LittleLebowski any chance we could split off the stargazing campin whatever chatter into a less distrwcting thread?

[Frank500]

My Kimber Montana 308 is set up as a scout rifle by Brockman. Four rounds down, six in butt cuff, military sling sand it’s six pounds six ounces. Does all I need

[okie john]

My Kimber Montana 308 is set up as a scout rifle by Brockman. Four rounds down, six in butt cuff, military sling sand it’s six pounds six ounces. Does all I need

I’d love to see pics of this.


Okie John

[Frank500]

I’ve no idea how to post a pic.

[peterb]

I’ve no idea how to post a pic.

Select that icon and follow the instructions
51500

[Frank500]

5150151501



That was easy, Thank you

[okie john]

5150151501



That was easy, Thank you

Sweet rifle! Thanks.


Okie John

[Frank500]

My everyday load is 125 TNTs at 2750. Hunting loads are 200 grain partitions running 2550!!!

[That Guy]

https://calibremag.ca/remington-783-budget-build-0-3-moa-for-under-1000/

That was a great article. Thank you.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

You're more than welcome. The pleasure was entirely mine.

[Tokarev]

I think one flaw in Cooper's thinking was that ammo of choice (in this case 308) must be readily available for resupply in an emergency.

If eight years of Obama and two months of Corona have taught us anything it is that if you don't already have it before an emergency you ain't going to get it during the emergency....

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[rob_s]

I think one flaw in Cooper's thinking was that ammo of choice (in this case 308) must be readily available for resupply in an emergency.

If eight years of Obama and two months of Corona have taught us anything it is that if you don't already have it before an emergency you ain't going to get it during the emergency....

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

IMO that depends on what you mean by “get it”. If you’re talking about being able to run down to the Walmart or having UPS drop it at your door, there’s an argument to be made that an abs cure caliber may be better (at least when ordering online) as it’s more likely to be in stock as the panic buyers clear out the standard calibers like 9mm, 223, 308, etc.

If we’re taking about a compete societal breakdown like some kind of zombie movie, you’re probably more likely to find two boxes of 308 in some farmer’s kitchen drawer than you are 6.5 or 300 win mag.

[Tokarev]

IMO that depends on what you mean by “get it”. If you’re talking about being able to run down to the Walmart or having UPS drop it at your door, there’s an argument to be made that an abs cure caliber may be better (at least when ordering online) as it’s more likely to be in stock as the panic buyers clear out the standard calibers like 9mm, 223, 308, etc.

If we’re taking about a compete societal breakdown like some kind of zombie movie, you’re probably more likely to find two boxes of 308 in some farmer’s kitchen drawer than you are 6.5 or 300 win mag.Which scenario is more realistic? Plus one will likely proceed the other.

I've read similar thinking on some reloading forums. "I'm getting into reloading so I have ammo during the dry spell." That's only true to a point. Once your stash of primers, powder and bullets dries up that's it until the manufacturers catch back up. We should all remember how hard it was to get primers just a few years ago. And curently my local reloading store that's usually got a decent selection of powders is out of everything but the really slow magnum rifle stuff.

Cooper had some great ideas and much of his thinking still applies today. But that doesn't mean every idea he had was a good one.

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[rob_s]

It also doesn’t mean that every guy on the internet is smarter and/or has shit figured out more betterrer particularly if they don’t understand the whole context.

It’s like every screamin dipshit that decides to become a gun teacher and thinks they need to re-write the four rules because they don’t understand them themselves.

[okie john]

I think one flaw in Cooper's thinking was that ammo of choice (in this case 308) must be readily available for resupply in an emergency.

If eight years of Obama and two months of Corona have taught us anything it is that if you don't already have it before an emergency you ain't going to get it during the emergency....

Cooper was all about Cold War apocalyptic scenarios. He was likely thinking of the ability to barter for a few rounds from passing troops to help you hang on until you can get more. Also, if you follow a poorly disciplined unit long enough, you'll find that people routinely throw shit into the bushes because it's heavy and they're sick of humping it. Belted machine-gun ammo is one of the first things to go.

A 100-round belt of 7.62 NATO would let a bolt gunner make a nuisance of himself for quite some time, plus it's not that much weight to carry if you're not also humping the MG.


Okie John

[Tokarev]

Cooper was all about Cold War apocalyptic scenarios. He was likely thinking of the ability to barter for a few rounds from passing troops to help you hang on until you can get more.

If that was his thinking it may have been valid 30 years ago. Again, looking at it from modern times (Katrina in this case) authorities are more likely to try and seize your property rather than help you.

The M1 Carbine is a great little gun and I enjoy shooting it. It is an interesting gun from a historical standpoint for its military use as well as its design and manufacturing history. That doesn't mean that it is still the best choice in a modern world. Yes. It will kill you just as dead as it would 80 years ago but there are better platforms on the market nowadays. This is pretty much how I see the Scout. A somewhat interesting study into what's possible but not really all that good in the modern market.


Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[OlongJohnson]

A 100-round belt of 7.62 NATO would let a bolt gunner make a nuisance of himself for quite some time, plus it's not that much weight to carry if you're not also humping the MG.

The same must be true of 5.56...

[okie john]

The same must be true of 5.56...

Yes, and even more so now, but Cooper despised the 5.56 almost as much as he despised the 9mm.


Okie John

[OlongJohnson]

Obviously, the metric system is nothing but a Communist plot.

[HCM]

Obviously, the metric system is nothing but a Communist plot.

Not even close


https://youtu.be/dSpOjj4YD8c

[okie john]

Obviously, the metric system is nothing but a Communist plot.

He thought that the metric system made a lot of sense—that’s why he stated the specs for the Scout rifle in metric units of measure. But he saw going from a 30 to a 22 as a giant step backwards that encouraged the use of hand-held full-auto fire instead of forcing people to learn to shoot. He also hated the idea that we’d gone from a 45 to a 35 for a second time given that it didn’t work so well the first time.


Okie John

[Lester Polfus]

He thought that the metric system made a lot of sense—that’s why he stated the specs for the Scout rifle in metric units of measure. But he saw going from a 30 to a 22 as a giant step backwards that encouraged the use of hand-held full-auto fire instead of forcing people to learn to shoot. He also hated the idea that we’d gone from a 45 to a 35 for a second time given that it didn’t work so well the first time.


Okie John


And at the time he was probably right. The 9mm was saddled with fast-expanding, poorly-penetrating hollowpoints that often failed spectacularly.

These days I'm pretty ok with 9mm, but still prefer the .308 to .223. But things like elk are in my target deck.

[coldcase1984]

My everyday load is 125 TNTs at 2750. Hunting loads are 200 grain partitions running 2550!!!

What length is your Kimber's barrel?

Mine is a threaded 22-in. factory tube.

Right now it's got an Aimpoint Comp M2 on the pic rail w a QR ring and a nylon sling with four Federal (V308VM110) in belly it weighs 6 lb 2.23 oz.

I zeroed it with good ol' Powershok 150s week before the 'Rona hit.

Going to tweak it to the new Varmint & Predator 110 V-Max load rated at 3,300 fps tomorrow to celebrate Memorial Day.

[Frank500]

It’s 18”. Reloader 17 is what I use for the heavy bullet loads

[Chuck Whitlock]

If that was his thinking it may have been valid 30 years ago.

Cooper died in 2006. Don't fault his writings because the world moved on from the context in which they were written. However, do be aware of said context.

[Tokarev]

Cooper died in 2006. Don't fault his writings because the world moved on from the context in which they were written. However, do be aware of said context.Cooper had some great ideas and much of his thinking still applies today. But that doesn't mean every idea he had was a good one.

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[HCM]

Cooper died in 2006. Don't fault his writings because the world moved on from the context in which they were written. However, do be aware of said context.


Cooper had some great ideas and much of his thinking still applies today. But that doesn't mean every idea he had was a good one.

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He also had some ideas that make a lot more sense in his personal context. For example advocacy of scout scopes makes a lot more sense in light of reports that he was cross eye dominant.

[Tokarev]

He also had...advocacy of scout scopes....

When I first messed with an M1A Scout 20+ years ago I settled on a small Burris LER scope with a duplex reticle. It has a 1" tube. No illumination and is 2.5x or 2.75x IIRC. It is somewhat limited in functionality but was about the best thing I could find at the time that fit the Scout idea.

Ten years later I got a Ruger bolt gun. The same lack of "good" scout scopes soon became apparent and really nothing had changed from my last experience with Scout optics.

Where are we today? Is anyone making an LER scope with a 30mm or larger tube with an illuminated reticle and some of the other "modern" features that are now pretty standard on even the less expensive scopes?



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[Rex G]

He also had some ideas that make a lot more sense in his personal context. For example advocacy of scout scopes makes a lot more sense in light of reports that he was cross eye dominant.

Interesting! I did not know that he was, or may have been, cross-eye-dominant. I am left-eye-dominant, and had noticed that I could use a good scout scope reasonably well, from the right shoulder, without having to totally shut my left eye, whereas using a conventional scope quickly, and well, with both eyes open, required that I shoot from the left shoulder.

My “good” scout scout, I mean Leupold, as opposed to a cheaper off-brand. I could only do this with a Leupold Scout Scope.

Because I normally shoot rifles lefty, and so few left-hand scout rifles have been build with left-hand actions, I have not (yet) bought a scout rifle.

[HCM]

When I first messed with an M1A Scout 20+ years ago I settled on a small Burris LER scope with a duplex reticle. It has a 1" tube. No illumination and is 2.5x or 2.75x IIRC. It is somewhat limited in functionality but was about the best thing I could find at the time that fit the Scout idea.

Ten years later I got a Ruger bolt gun. The same lack of "good" scout scopes soon became apparent and really nothing had changed from my last experience with Scout optics.

Where are we today? Is anyone making an LER scope with a 30mm or larger tube with an illuminated reticle and some of the other "modern" features that are now pretty standard on even the less expensive scopes?



Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

Yes Leupold makes a VX-R 30mm tube firedot 1.5-5x. I believe it is an SWFA exclusive.

[Rex G]

My “good” scout scout, I mean Leupold, as opposed to a cheaper off-brand. I could only do this with a Leupold Scout Scope.

Ah, too late to edit. The above sentence should have been:

By “good” scout scout, I mean Leupold, as opposed to a cheaper off-brand. I could only do this with a Leupold Scout Scope.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Because I normally shoot rifles lefty, and so few left-hand scout rifles have been build with left-hand actions, I have not (yet) bought a scout rifle.

https://ruger.com/products/scoutRifle/specSheets/6821.html

[okie john]

Cooper had some great ideas and much of his thinking still applies today. But that doesn't mean every idea he had was a good one.


Cooper died in 2006. Don't fault his writings because the world moved on from the context in which they were written. However, do be aware of said context.

The world moved on even when Cooper was still alive because Cooper tended to solve a problem to his satisfaction then move on to something else. From that point, his interest in the first problem consisted mostly of trying to keep people from even considering anything other than his solution. That's how he missed the boat on the Isosceles stance, the 9mm, most 1911 mods, the Glock, the 5.56 NATO cartridge, the M-16 platform, the variable scope, and a bunch of stuff that are now the cornerstones of our craft.

Cooper wrote The Art of the Rifle in 1997 to document how the rifle had been used in the 20th century and to imply that he was showing us how it should be used for the 21st. Kyle Lamb wrote Green Eyes & Black Rifles just 20 years later, which I think we all recognize as a far more useful work. There is almost zero overlap in the contents of those two books. For one thing, Cooper's book has nine images of the M-1 Garand, five images of the Krag-Jorgensen, and no images of the M-16.


Okie John

[Robinson]

The world moved on even when Cooper was still alive because Cooper tended to solve a problem to his satisfaction then move on to something else. From that point, his interest in the first problem consisted mostly of trying to keep people from even considering anything other than his solution. That's how he missed the boat on the Isosceles stance, the 9mm, most 1911 mods, the Glock, the 5.56 NATO cartridge, the M-16 platform, the variable scope, and a bunch of stuff that are now the cornerstones of our craft.

Cooper wrote The Art of the Rifle in 1997 to document how the rifle had been used in the 20th century and to imply that he was showing us how it should be used for the 21st. Kyle Lamb wrote Green Eyes & Black Rifles just 20 years later, which I think we all recognize as a far more useful work. There is almost zero overlap in the contents of those two books. For one thing, Cooper's book has nine images of the M-1 Garand, five images of the Krag-Jorgensen, and no images of the M-16.


Okie John

Agree 100%. I still like to read my copy of Art of the Rifle, but mostly because of the history it represents -- sort of the same reason I still like to read "Another Country" occasionally.

Green Eyes & Black Rifles is loaded with good info, but I wouldn't read it for the writing.

[Rex G]

https://ruger.com/products/scoutRifle/specSheets/6821.html

True, the left-hand Ruger Scout finally did come along. Thanks.

My “scout rifle fever” had largely healed, by the time the left-hand Ruger option arrived, IIRC.

Somewhere along the way, I acquired a Browning BLR Takedown, and eventually sourced the forward scope mount for it, but never (yet) got around to adding the Leupold Scout Scope. For a while, I was watching some of the scout scopes, on the evil bay. Whether or not a BLR is sufficiently rugged for “social” purposes, well, I cannot say.

[Wheeler]

True, the left-hand Ruger Scout finally did come along. Thanks.

My “scout rifle fever” had largely healed, by the time the left-hand Ruger option arrived, IIRC.

Somewhere along the way, I acquired a Browning BLR Takedown, and eventually sourced the forward scope mount for it, but never (yet) got around to adding the Leupold Scout Scope. For a while, I was watching some of the scout scopes, on the evil bay. Whether or not a BLR is sufficiently rugged for “social” purposes, well, I cannot say.

I've been on a casual hunt for a BLR T/D in 3 Oh Hate. I have a standard BLR 81 and some spare mags that I've hunted with a few times and love it as a fast handling lever action. It's rugged enough for social purposes in the same class as a Marlin, Winchester, or one of the newer clones is rugged. If you're expecting to run high round count drills back to back it will probably overheat. I'd like to run the BLR in the local 2 gun 'tactical rifle' match to get a handle on how it will do under stress.

[Rex G]

I've been on a casual hunt for a BLR T/D in 3 Oh Hate. I have a standard BLR 81 and some spare mags that I've hunted with a few times and love it as a fast handling lever action. It's rugged enough for social purposes in the same class as a Marlin, Winchester, or one of the newer clones is rugged. If you're expecting to run high round count drills back to back it will probably overheat. I'd like to run the BLR in the local 2 gun 'tactical rifle' match to get a handle on how it will do under stress.

Well, I add the ruggedness disclaimer to head-off the haters, who seem to come out of nowhere, whenever I mention “BLR.” ;)

[Wheeler]

Well, I add the ruggedness disclaimer to head-off the haters, who seem to come out of nowhere, whenever I mention “BLR.” ;)

Yeah, I'm familiar with that conversation. I've run a couple of Winchester 94s in tactical rifle matches just to annoy the other shooters and did a lot better than folks, including myself expected. Lee Weems' Social Levergun class is a good intro.

I like my BLR and am pretty biased towards them. :D

[Lester Polfus]

Yeah, I'm familiar with that conversation. I've run a couple of Winchester 94s in tactical rifle matches just to annoy the other shooters and did a lot better than folks, including myself expected. Lee Weems' Social Levergun class is a good intro.

I like my BLR and am pretty biased towards them. :D

Me and some buds have informal 3-gun matches, and they have often been surprised at how quickly I can run a lever gun when it comes to delivering aimed fire at high accountability targets.

Once we've fired enough rounds to make it into an encyclopedia, the ARs clearly have an advantage.

[Wheeler]

Me and some buds have informal 3-gun matches, and they have often been surprised at how quickly I can run a lever gun when it comes to delivering aimed fire at high accountability targets.

Once we've fired enough rounds to make it into an encyclopedia, the ARs clearly have an advantage.

That was pretty much my experience. The stage designs were somewhat stagnant. Ten rounds and a mag change on most every rifle stage except for the ones that were ten rounds and transition to a pistol while holding your rifle with one hand. I'd do quite well for the first ten rounds, it was the reloads that would beat me up. even then I never finished last.

[Flashman]

It is important to consider Jeff Cooper as product of his time but most importantly as the father of modern personal defense pistol shooting as well as bringing together and codifying rifle technique. I bought a copy of The Art of the Rifle when first published and it was a bit of a let down. There was nothing new it but at that time I was devouring everything Cooper had written. In years since when I pick it up I am amazed at how well written it is but also how insightful. Funny that my perception should change so much over time. The book is about the of shooting a rifle, not a particular rifle although the Scout Rifle is prominently featured. Kyle Lamb's book is also a great book but more fundamentally about the AR as a weapon system and clearly moves beyond Cooper in positional techniques, something rather absent in most rifle literature. In fact, the biggest downside to his book are that pages detach from the binding creating a real mess every time it is opened.

Cooper couldn't get over the poddle shooter label but as the AR platform evolved, the bare bones 16 inch AR with a red dot seems to me to be the perfect Scout Rifle because it seems to satisfy virtually all but one of the requirements (Cooper's preference was for a hunting based Scout Rifle in a medium sized game animal caliber).