This needs slightly modified

[LittleLebowski]

To “AR15s” :). I don’t do weed, but I don’t care anymore. The Republican Party needs to let go of some things.

https://www.amazon.com/American-Vinyl-Couples-Marijuana-Libertarian/dp/B01DS5DS48

[wsr]

Yeah, but pot is dangerous...it’s not safe like alcohol

[Bigghoss]

#LegalizeEverything (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=LegalizeEverything)

[AKDoug]

I swear the fear of the reefer is a genetic thing and my wife got a double dose. I laugh my ass off at her when she pours herself a double and pontificates about the dangers of the herb.

I try not to be too hypocritical, and while I think that chronic weed use is every bit as bad as chronic alcohol use. I don't get on my high horse about it.

I just wish the "wake and bake" crowd would stay home on their couch instead of getting behind the wheel every morning. I have a couple customers that roll into my store parking lot like a scene out of Cheech and Chong... and yes, I've called them on it.

[willie]

Had I not seen so many kids who abused the stuff, I might not care either. When I consider the lawlessness associated with drug cartels and also with the distribution of weed in this country, I have difficulty understanding how some users who are otherwise concerned with law and order can ignore the violence integral to drug business.

[LittleLebowski]

Had I not seen so many kids who abused the stuff, I might not care either. When I consider the lawlessness associated with drug cartels and also with the distribution of weed in this country, I have difficulty understanding how some users who are otherwise concerned with law and order can ignore the violence integral to drug business.

That’s because the drugs are illegal. Remember Capone?

[breakingtime91]

The idea that alcohol is less dangerous than thc consumption is hilarious to me. Young adults should not consume it but after the age of 25 (honestly same for alcohol) I can see little negative side effects of responsible and recreational use.

[Jac]

I swear the fear of the reefer is a genetic thing and my wife got a double dose. I laugh my ass off at her when she pours herself a double and pontificates about the dangers of the herb.

I try not to be too hypocritical, and while I think that chronic weed use is every bit as bad as chronic alcohol use. I don't get on my high horse about it.

I just wish the "wake and bake" crowd would stay home on their couch instead of getting behind the wheel every morning. I have a couple customers that roll into my store parking lot like a scene out of Cheech and Chong... and yes, I've called them on it.

Heh.

[RevolverRob]

Love it. May buy it and stick it on my favorite water bottle.

I don't normally advertise my life, but if people don't like that message they can FUCK OFF.

[willie]

If I were a user, I would feel less guilty if I grew my own weed. Not being terribly dense, I realize that all the various kinds of dope are here to stay. On my end of things, I have seen nothing except family and career disruption, despair, and hopelessness come from drug use. Mostly I refer to kids and their families. Rationalization will not erase these horrors. I do not comprehend how so called law abiding citizens can finance cartels and their violence. Is giving up this stuff or deciding not to buy it that difficult? Said another way, how can any of us who beat the law and order drum step forward to subsidize the very dope dealers and druggies that we continually condemn? Is there an element of hypocrisy here? My point is this: Go ahead and smoke dope and/or use the other products sold by your dealer. However, will you please not whine about crime statistics and all those folks across the tracks who don't look like you.

[Totem Polar]

One thing about WA state legal weed: the stuff grown under lights in huge commercial buildings down the street has, A: way less blood on its hands, and B: is incredibly regulated, including checks for things like e-coli, and all sorts of other biological unpleasantries that the weed coming up rural highways inside the spare tires of random Camaros and El Caminos get an inspection pass on. So there’s that.

[willie]

Just curious. Is it more or less expensive than the former illegal product? Too, how does one gain access it?

[LittleLebowski]

Had I not seen so many kids who abused the stuff, I might not care either. When I consider the lawlessness associated with drug cartels and also with the distribution of weed in this country, I have difficulty understanding how some users who are otherwise concerned with law and order can ignore the violence integral to drug business.

How do you feel about alcohol?

[Bigghoss]

Just curious. Is it more or less expensive than the former illegal product? Too, how does one gain access it?

I know that here in Colorado you have to go to a dispensary to buy it and they're all over the friggen place. But apparently there's still a market for illegal weed because grow houses get busted fairly regularly. So either the taxes or the cost of the regulation increase the cost enough to risk prison time for some people.

[whomever]

"Is it more or less expensive than the former illegal product?"

No idea, haven't bought any of either.

"Too, how does one gain access it?"

Go into one of the weed stores, which seem like they outnumber 7-11's.

From a quick google:
https://potguide.com/washington/marijuana-stores/

[RevolverRob]

My biggest concern with legal weed is that for years the cries of the legalize it crowd have relied on, "Less dangerous than alcohol." - Which the average stupid person takes to mean, "No big deal if I smoke some and drive. It's legal and safer than alcohol!"

Unfortunately, we haven't caught up on delivering the message that legal weed consumption should be treated like alcohol consumption. It should be done responsibly.

Alas, judging by the number of alcohol related DUIs, we haven't really conveyed that message very well either.

While I'm all for generating tax revenue with legal recreational marijuana. I fully expect that by Feb 1, 2020 when recreational marijuana has been legal for 30 days in Illinois, we will have seen a double-digit percentage increase in DUIs.

[willie]

I have seen much heartache from alcohol too. I do not drink although I once did. I quit drinking in 1974 because I determined that I was headed toward dependency as did other family members. My intent is also pointing out that those buying illegal drugs have elected to fund violence connected to the drug trade. To continue buying weed and other requires that one justify in his mind contributing money to a violent criminal enterprise. One can say he does not care; he can say that others do it too; he can refer to Prohibition and discuss boot legging; he can say he has to have the product and can't function without the substance; and he can deny the problem. To gain comfort, the person must rationalize two facts. One is being a law abiding guy, and the other is contributing money to finance cartels. I see the two as mutually exclusive. My post now addresses a philosophical question.

My concern has always been with how drugs and alcohol affect children. I report observations. More than once I have cried after leaving work and returning home. I have zero recommendations about what we should and should not do concerning laws pertaining to drugs. But I have raised a philosophical question that makes some people unsettled. Lest I portray myself as lily white and above approach, let me admit that I am not. Raised in rural Mississippi, I was comfortable with whiskey making and boot legging. I did not care. Today I would care.

[AKDoug]

I have seen much heartache from alcohol too. I do not drink although I once did. I quit drinking in 1974 because I determined that I was headed toward dependency as did other family members. My intent is also pointing out that those buying illegal drugs have elected to fund violence connected to the drug trade. To continue buying weed and other requires that one justify in his mind contributing money to a violent criminal enterprise. One can say he does not care; he can say that others do it too; he can refer to Prohibition and discuss boot legging; he can say he has to have the product and can't function without the substance; and he can deny the problem. To gain comfort, the person must rationalize two facts. One is being a law abiding guy, and the other is contributing money to finance cartels. I see the two as mutually exclusive. My post now addresses a philosophical question.

My concern has always been with how drugs and alcohol affect children. I report observations. More than once I have cried after leaving work and returning home. I have zero recommendations about what we should and should not do concerning laws pertaining to drugs. But I have raised a philosophical question that makes some people unsettled. Lest I portray myself as lily white and above approach, let me admit that I am not. Raised in rural Mississippi, I was comfortable with whiskey making and boot legging. I did not care. Today I would care.

In states where it is legalized, you are not funding cartels. In fact, you are funding local small businesses that purchase supplies from other small businesses like mine. I sell building materials and hardware, and they are just another customer. Alaska has made it illegal for both dispensaries and grow operations to be owned by non-residents. They have been enforcing it fairly well, but time will tell if that enforcement stays consistent.

As for pricing. Alaska's primary source of weed for decades was illegal local growers. Alaska is a pretty libertarian place and we've been through a series of legal, not-legal, kinda legal, now legal again weed laws. In the 80's it was far easier for me to by local weed than it was to get beer. Those illegal growers that never got caught became legal growers in the new system (if you had a record you aren't getting a grow or sell license). Because the state taxes the product from the grow operation, and the dispensary charges a markup on product, the prices are slightly higher than before. However, weed is a tough product to keep track of and I know there is product going out the back door, untaxed, to the growers' old customers. With our small population, and difficulties of shipment, I doubt seriously that we were ever really on the Cartel's radar for a market. Not when cocaine, meth, oxy and heroine bring far higher profits and come in much smaller packages.

I was in the EMS and Fire business for a decade when weed was illegal. It was still everywhere up here, but I rarely saw an emergency where weed caused anywhere near the issues that alcohol did. I also found the whole "gateway" drug thing to be overblown. I know plenty of weed users that are weed users only, not even alcohol.

I don't smoke weed for several reasons. First, it would be illegal for me to do so and keep my A class CDL. Second, there's that pesky issue of the question on form 4473's and I'm an FFL. Third, I consider smoking anything to be idiotic. We've known a long time that smoking cigarettes is deadly, and studies are starting to show that weed smoking might be just as bad. If I need a little relaxer at the end of the day, I drink a nice Scotch or rarely a beer.

[0ddl0t]

I'm not a user, but Marijuana has long been the #1 industry in far Northern California so I've met folks at all levels of distribution over the years. The biggest problem is the federal banking prohibition makes the multi-billion cash industry a ripe target for criminals. We've also seen an increase in Mexican cartels operating illegal grows in our state & national parks. Unlike the original hippies who started growing here 50 years ago, the cartels do not give a rat's ass about the environment and leave lots of damage in their wake.


My biggest concern with legal weed is that for years the cries of the legalize it crowd have relied on, "Less dangerous than alcohol." - Which the average stupid person takes to mean, "No big deal if I smoke some and drive. It's legal and safer than alcohol!"

Unfortunately, we haven't caught up on delivering the message that legal weed consumption should be treated like alcohol consumption. It should be done responsibly.

Alas, judging by the number of alcohol related DUIs, we haven't really conveyed that message very well either.

While I'm all for generating tax revenue with legal recreational marijuana. I fully expect that by Feb 1, 2020 when recreational marijuana has been legal for 30 days in Illinois, we will have seen a double-digit percentage increase in DUIs.

If Illinois is like the other states that have legalized marijuana, you should expect a marked increase in DUI for the first 6 months and then a decline, settling in at a ~6% overall increase (or 1 additional death per 1 million people). https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/5/18210827/marijuana-traffic-fatality-deaths-transportation-public-health




Just curious. Is it more or less expensive than the former illegal product? Too, how does one gain access it?
Illegal product is generally less expensive, although you can find some high potency strains on the black market that cost more that just aren't available in dispensaries.

Word of mouth is probably the #1 way people find out where to get it, but apps/sites like weedmaps will probably replace that in the next decade.

If anyone is interested in the economics of the drug trade, I highly recommend Narconomics by Tom Wainwright: https://www.amazon.com/Narconomics-How-Run-Drug-Cartel/

[0ddl0t]

My concern has always been with how drugs and alcohol affect children. I report observations. More than once I have cried after leaving work and returning home. I have zero recommendations about what we should and should not do concerning laws pertaining to drugs. But I have raised a philosophical question that makes some people unsettled. Lest I portray myself as lily white and above approach, let me admit that I am not. Raised in rural Mississippi, I was comfortable with whiskey making and boot legging. I did not care. Today I would care.

There are definite downsides to marijuana, sure. Any rational look at the issue should consider positive and negative effects and compare those with the positive and negative effects of prohibition.

I also think a lot of the problem kids/people drawn to drugs would still have problems without drugs. Blaming the drug reminds me a bit of blaming the gun for gun violence: there may be some "common sense" truth to it, but it obscures a lot of the underlying issues.

[Totem Polar]

Just curious. Is it more or less expensive than the former illegal product? Too, how does one gain access it?

If you’re asking me about WA state, I can say that I was shocked at the legal pricing. I’m not a user, because, adult, 4473s, and Fed laws, but I *think* I remember what the street price was back when I was a hard-charging high school kid. A quick look inside the one legal place I ever stepped in revealed, like, 1985 prices for a gram. As in, the stuff on sale was less than 10 bucks. It’s been a while, but the one place I looked out of curiosity seemed to range between 12 and 20 bucks for the same amount at retail. That said, I have no idea what taxes add to that total.

My main take-away was that legal weed is to decent, legal scotch what bulk .22LR is to 20-round boxes of .458 win mag—it was that cheap.

[willie]

I observed that in many cases adult family members gave drugs to kids. In almost all cases, parents/guardians were addicted. Of course, my experience is skewed. Time spent in juvenile and adult corrections as well as programs for emotionally disturbed youth revealed that drug addiction put most in these places. Before someone comments that weed is not addictive, I will say that there is a diagnosis called cannabis disorder. I found it interesting that 100% of the kids that I worked with claimed that they would smoke weed when they were released. I don't know the research on whether or not marijuana is a gateway drug but can say that with the kids I supervised, all said that they started with marijuana, and this fact includes the many 13 year old heroin addicts that I saw.

[Totem Polar]

Since data beats conjecture, and I was mostly talking out of my butt, by memory, I figured I’d pull a WA state menu or two for edification. This place, "Sativa Sisters," was one of the first legal weed places in WA state, and the first one in Spokane. It was started jointly (heh) by two retired baby boomer couples as a retirement business project. In the first 18 months they were open, they did something close to 6mil in business—all cash—and payed 2.1 million in taxes to WA state.

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2016/jan/17/boomers-find-booming-business-with-pot-shop/

A quick look at their menu reveals that the average price is indeed around 10 bucks per gram, and the bargain basement stuff is half of that. No matter where one’s opinion falls on MJ use, the fact remains: that’s damn cheap entertainment.

I’d be curious to hear from drug enforcement LEOs in the majority of states as to the going price of an illicit gram of weed. It’s gotta be more than 5-6 bucks.

[BobLoblaw]

Sure sure cool so I'll address the elephant in the room: will these rock-bottom pot prices subsequently drop alcohol prices? Just sayin, Lagavulin 16 is like half a case of 9mm..

[0ddl0t]

Legalization has dramatically lowered the price of legal & illegal Marijuana. During Reagan's Campaign Against Marijuana Planting (CAMP) in the 1980s, 1 pound of premium Humboldt could fetch $4,000 ($10,000 today). After California legalized medical marijuana in 1996, prices dropped slowly with premium product selling for $3,000 ($5,000 today). It fluctuated a bit, but mostly held steady as it remained illegal federally and was still subject to frequent raids.

Then in 2009 Eric Holder announced that the federal government would no longer enforce marijuana laws if the grow was compliant with state laws. Combined with the great recession, a ton of new people began to seek their fortune in the industry and prices fell to ~$2,000/pound for premium. In 2016, California legalized recreational marijuana and even more people flocked into the industry. Prices dropped to $1,500 by the end of 2017, and dipped below $1,000/pound in 2018.

That seemed to be the bottom as many would-be entrepreneurs discovered they couldn't make payroll at those prices. Today's prices are:

The price for a pound of untested Indoor ranges from $1100-1400.
The price for a pound of untested summer light-dep range from $900-1100.
The price for winter/spring light-dep are from $650-850.
The price for untested 2017outdoor sits at $500 or less.
The price for untested Material is between $15-40 per pound.


Outdoor harvest will be in a few weeks, which should cause a seasonal drop in price.

[David S.]

On my end of things, I have seen nothing except family and career disruption, despair, and hopelessness come from drug use. Mostly I refer to kids and their families.

What's the effect on one's career and family life for locking them up for NON-violent drug offenses?

I'm all for locking people up for violent actions, whether it's drug related or not. Voluntary transactions, possession and usage. . . not so much.

[willie]

Incarceration whether long or short term is disruptive. Having a kilo of coke or 15 pounds of marijuana in the car trunk and being caught after having a fender bender or wreck would be one example of non violent offense. Such is guaranteed to result in jail time. Dealers run this risk. Those dumb enough to get caught out and about with cocaine, crack rocks, meth, or heroin have exercised supremely poor judgment. Perhaps they have already burned up their brains. They should have stayed home. My social worker orientation emphasizes treatment for users. If I could, I would raise your taxes and mine to establish these programs. In the past I emphasized to my wards that they could avoid many of life's hassles by using common sense: if you have weed in your car, don't violate speed limits. Keep all vehicle lights working properly. Don't talk shit to cops. Better yet, leave your dope at home. If you get arrested, keep your mouth shut. During my last jail job, I booked a nice young man on whose person I found a large number of oxy pills taped in his crotch and inside his thighs. I told him as I told everybody else that if he had shit on his body, tell me now and I will make certain that you won't be penalized. If I find it when I strip search you, then you will be in big trouble. Well, he got in big trouble. When I resigned the job, I went to the back and told the kid not to agree to any plea bargain on the oxy charge. Why? Somebody stole his dope from the evidence locker. I told him that next time he would not be this lucky. Later he was let out and not charged with anything. What I did in this instance put me on many shit lists. I don't care.

[blues]

willie, trying to do a favor for a young girl in possession of a small quantity of a proscribed drug which would have landed her a mandatory minimum sentence...many years later nearly cost me my reputation, and more importantly, my pension as I was nearing the point I could retire.

There was absolutely nothing ulterior in the motive nor the actions taken...but they were not proper procedure and the recipient of that kindness tried to use it as a bargaining chip with federal prosecutors approximately 15 years after the fact. Fortunately, it did not end up biting me in the ass...nor my partner at the time.

No good deed goes unpunished.

[RevolverRob]

Prices dropped to $1,500 by the end of 2017, and dipped below $1,000/pound in 2018. From what was once basically the equivalent of $10,000/pound.

Previously, all $10,000 of that went into the pockets of drug dealers, farmers, traffickers, etc. Everything was done on the DL/grey market, no taxes were collected -

Now, ~$1,000/pound of which how much goes to the state in tax revenue? How much to keep a business open, cash that pays the electric bill and the internet bill, pays payroll to multiple employees (income taxes too!), and subsidizes all the other things necessary to grow the puff, legally?

It's really getting to be difficult to convince me that legalization of marijuana in particular is bad.

The way I see it - In the past $10,000/pound went to cartels and other illicit and violent drug dealers, now even for the illicit sales they are getting ~$1000/pound or 1/10th their previous profit with a weaker dollar to show for it. And there is plenty of legal weed that it has generate a wholesale new set of industries and economies to help generate tax revenue and financial support.

Where is the lose in this? We took money out of the pockets of cartels and put it in the banks of U.S. Citizens and into the tax coffers...

[willie]

Blues, you are absolutely correct about risks we sometimes take to help people. I think that this fact may be more true today than in the distant past, like when I was a young man. Then I was given a break. I always tried to do the same for others. Now, if I had a grand kid who worked in the CJ system, I would caution against taking chances that would end careers.

[David S.]

Ummm. Ok.

[UNK]

One thing about WA state legal weed: the stuff grown under lights in huge commercial buildings down the street has, A: way less blood on its hands, and B: is incredibly regulated, including checks for things like e-coli, and all sorts of other biological unpleasantries that the weed coming up rural highways inside the spare tires of random Camaros and El Caminos get an inspection pass on. So there’s that.

A guy i worked with was a Coast Guard or Navy rescue diver. Apparently his ship confiscated lots of weed. He said it was nasty often they would find it in bilge water.

[Baldanders]

In states where it is legalized, you are not funding cartels. In fact, you are funding local small businesses that purchase supplies from other small businesses like mine. I sell building materials and hardware, and they are just another customer. Alaska has made it illegal for both dispensaries and grow operations to be owned by non-residents. They have been enforcing it fairly well, but time will tell if that enforcement stays consistent.

As for pricing. Alaska's primary source of weed for decades was illegal local growers. Alaska is a pretty libertarian place and we've been through a series of legal, not-legal, kinda legal, now legal again weed laws. In the 80's it was far easier for me to by local weed than it was to get beer. Those illegal growers that never got caught became legal growers in the new system (if you had a record you aren't getting a grow or sell license). Because the state taxes the product from the grow operation, and the dispensary charges a markup on product, the prices are slightly higher than before. However, weed is a tough product to keep track of and I know there is product going out the back door, untaxed, to the growers' old customers. With our small population, and difficulties of shipment, I doubt seriously that we were ever really on the Cartel's radar for a market. Not when cocaine, meth, oxy and heroine bring far higher profits and come in much smaller packages.

I was in the EMS and Fire business for a decade when weed was illegal. It was still everywhere up here, but I rarely saw an emergency where weed caused anywhere near the issues that alcohol did. I also found the whole "gateway" drug thing to be overblown. I know plenty of weed users that are weed users only, not even alcohol.

I don't smoke weed for several reasons. First, it would be illegal for me to do so and keep my A class CDL. Second, there's that pesky issue of the question on form 4473's and I'm an FFL. Third, I consider smoking anything to be idiotic. We've known a long time that smoking cigarettes is deadly, and studies are starting to show that weed smoking might be just as bad. If I need a little relaxer at the end of the day, I drink a nice Scotch or rarely a beer.

I had completely forgotten about Alaska's experiment with legalization in the 80s. I have a feeling that laws that keep pot businesses fairly small probably help keep consumption at a lower ebb than allowing businesses of any size to enter the game, if the Dutch experience of the 80s-90s has any broad applicability. But I can't see that sort of small scale legalization being the norm here--what rich folks would lobby to change laws in a way that doesn't open the doors to huge profits?

My biggest concern now is that the piecemeal legalization we have now hasn't done much to end the black market for cannabis products, and it seems to have increased human trafficking in California.

[Baldanders]

Support for your black market cannabis extract business on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/dank-vapes/s?k=dank+vapes

Flavoring agents, packaging....

[Baldanders]

A guy i worked with was a Coast Guard or Navy rescue diver. Apparently his ship confiscated lots of weed. He said it was nasty often they would find it in bilge water.

When my dad was a Lieutenant in the Navy in '73, he was stationed on a destroyer where they made the enlisted guys watch as they dumped all the herb they found replacing insulation around pipes overboard. He said many guys had tears streaming down their faces.

He also had guys offer him $50 for his piss to get out of Vietnam. Good money in 1972.

#whymydadopposesconscription (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=whymydadopposesconscription)

[LittleLebowski]

I’m trying not to be a guilt tripping asshole, but I genuinely wish that my brother (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?34472-LittleLebowki-s-brother-passed-away-GoFundMe-for-his-widow-and-daughter) had smoked weed instead of drinking a bottle of vodka the night before he self ejected.

[Baldanders]

I’m trying not to be a guilt tripping asshole, but I genuinely wish that my brother (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?34472-LittleLebowki-s-brother-passed-away-GoFundMe-for-his-widow-and-daughter) had smoked weed instead of drinking a bottle of vodka the night before he self ejected.

I think research backs your intuition on this. Alcohol is quite well established as a primer for violent (I think suicide fits) behavior.

Sometimes an apathy inducer is better than the alternative. My long-term college roommate had a cousin who managed to check out with just the bottle of vodka (he upended it and took it at one go). No other action needed.