Why BCM?

[cornstalker]

This has probably come up before but in lieu of the current round of recurrent Colt shenanigans, it seems appropriate to me to look at a more properly managed company.


https://youtu.be/BaFOZAwspYI

[SecondsCount]

BCM makes good stuff and I like the extra steps in their QC but quality starts at the point of the part being manufactured. The quality of the steel, machining, heat treat, Six Sigma processes, etc.

[OlongJohnson]

^^^What he said.

You can't inspect quality into a part. They appear to be explaining how they make sure they don't ship junk coming from production processes (vendors) they have no direct control over. Quality management is the art and science (mostly science) of ensuring only parts that conform to spec get made in the first place. I'm sure they do some of that, but this video seems intended to impress people who are relatively low-information about manufacturing, without showing any actual manufacturing.

[NH Shooter]

You can't inspect quality into a part.

I've been a product manager for a large valve manufacturer since 2007 and am familiar with these processes. Quality components (purchased or manufactured) start with a rigid specification (material used, manufacturing process, dimensional spec, quality of finish, etc.) and then an in-house QC inspection program to ensure the part meets the specification. It's up to the manufacturer of the finished product to establish the specification of the component (the tighter the spec, the higher the cost) and then ensure the part meets the spec via a rigorous QC inspection process. But it all starts with the specification, regardless of where the part is made.

FWIW, kudos to BCM as I have been consistently impressed with the quality and function of their products.

[FredWyn]

BCM is a solid choice, to be sure.I stick with COLT ARs though and have purchased LMTs for a genuinely higher-end innovative AR platform, and I use the word "platform" deliberately because of LMT's MWS system.

[MistWolf]

BCM is a solid choice, to be sure.I stick with COLT ARs though and have purchased LMTs for a genuinely higher-end innovative AR platform, and I use the word "platform" deliberately because of LMT's MWS system.

I prefer Colts but with Colt cutting off commercial sales of ARs, that choice has become very limited.

The AR isn't a platform, it's a weapon. Unless you mount a bunch of crapola to it. Then it becomes a crapola platform.

[FredWyn]

I prefer Colts but with Colt cutting off commercial sales, that choice has become very limited.

The AR isn't a platform, it's a weapon. Unless you mount a bunch of crapola to it. Then it becomes a crapola platform.

The LMT MWS AR system is a "platform" since LMT's MWS technology allows you to use various barrel lengths and even calibers. I get your point, generally, about the misuse of the term "platform" but ... it can and is properly used in certain circumstances, this being one.

[MistWolf]

The LMT MWS AR system is a "platform" since LMT's MWS technology allows you to use various barrel lengths and even calibers. I get your point, generally, about the misuse of the term "platform" but ... it can and is properly used in certain circumstances, this being one.

I try not to let my pet peeves get the better of me, but this little bastard got out before I could reel him back in. Didn't come when I called and was too quick for me to scoop him up when I laid out a plate of food and waited in ambush. Your post just happened to be the door this one used to sneak outdoors.

A platform is something a whatever (weapon, light, launcher etc.) is mounted to or used from, whether that platform is fixed or mobile. Tanks, airplanes, helicopters, ships, machinegun towers, tripods and so on are platforms. I could even argue shooters are platforms. Switchable barrels just makes the upper "modular".

Anyway, thanks for cornering this pet peeve for me. I'll just grab him my the scruff of the neck and take him home, now.

[SecondsCount]

So this being a BCM thread, what makes you Colt guys want to buy Colt over BCM?

[cornstalker]

Minutiae aside, I bought a BCM because Pat Rogers recommended them. That was enough for me. The stuff in the video is just icing on the cake.

[farscott]

For my needs, the advantage of BCM is the ability to purchase separate complete lowers at reasonable prices with no issues. If I could purchase complete Colt lowers at the prices I pay for BCM lowers, I would do so.

[HCM]

So this being a BCM thread, what makes you Colt guys want to buy Colt over BCM?

There are multiple “duty grade” ARs - Colt, BCM, LMT, DD, Sionics, SOLGW, S&W M&P but Colt set the original standard.

It is an largely an emotional / sentimental choice.

[Casual Friday]

So this being a BCM thread, what makes you Colt guys want to buy Colt over BCM?

I celebrate diversity by putting BCM uppers on Colt lowers.


For my needs, the advantage of BCM is the ability to purchase separate complete lowers at reasonable prices with no issues. If I could purchase complete Colt lowers at the prices I pay for BCM lowers, I would do so.

You missed out. Brownells sold complete Colt lowers for $299 up until a few months ago, and they would put them on sale for $199 on occasion. I bought a few.

[Mike C]

There are multiple “duty grade” ARs - Colt, BCM, LMT, DD, Sionics, SOLGW, S&W M&P but Colt set the original standard.

It is an largely an emotional / sentimental choice.

I would completely agree with this. I've carried one on every deployment, slept with it in the sand and everywhere in between. I've also had more than one at home in a safe or by my bed all since I was 18 (going on 21 years now). I have an emotional connection to Colt guns I that I share with no other I've ever owned. I hate to admit it but it is absolutely true. Most likely any of the above could carry you through some rough times so long as you have good mags, ammo and apply lube and maintenance as required.

[rob_s]

So this being a BCM thread, what makes you Colt guys want to buy Colt over BCM?

It’s been along time since I was fully buried in the minutiae of AR specs and manufacturing, and I could probably go back and dig up some of my notes and research (which included phone calls with Paul from Bravo, and several Colt Armorer instructors, as well as at least one colt executive that I can remember), but the conclusion I came to at that time was that BCM came the closest to matching all of the Colt TDP specs, but was still just shy in a few tiny places.

None of which would make me feel at all bad about a BCM, but frankly would probably make me feel a little uneasy with just about anyone else.

The real issue, as I see it, in today’s market is all of the claims of “better than”. Different isn’t always better, and most of the “better” I hear about is likely snake oil at best, and downright bad at worst. Then there are the “improvements” to the design that are incremental at best and therefore not really worth wasting the time considering. I understand enough about the system to “think” that the KAC SR15, for example! may very well be better, but I don’t know enough about the system to be 100% certain of that and so I would always arrive back at Colt.

Or, I suppose, now BCM.

[Jay Cunningham]

It’s been along time since I was fully buried in the minutiae of AR specs and manufacturing, and I could probably go back and dig up some of my notes and research (which included phone calls with Paul from Bravo, and several Colt Armorer instructors, as well as at least one colt executive that I can remember), but the conclusion I came to at that time was that BCM came the closest to matching all of the Colt TDP specs, but was still just shy in a few tiny places.

It looks like it might be time.

It seems like a lot of “common knowledge” went down the memory hole the last few years. Looking at a few threads around here recently, some of us who’ve been through all this may yet have something to offer.

[Jay Cunningham]

The real issue, as I see it, in today’s market is all of the claims of “better than”. Different isn’t always better, and most of the “better” I hear about is likely snake oil at best, and downright bad at worst. Then there are the “improvements” to the design that are incremental at best and therefore not really worth wasting the time considering. I understand enough about the system to “think” that the KAC SR15, for example! may very well be better, but I don’t know enough about the system to be 100% certain of that and so I would always arrive back at Colt.

Oh man.

KAC guns remind me of Inspector Clouseau’s car, the Silver Hornet.

"The influence of the 1970s and James Bond were beginning to catch up with the series by now, and the theme music took on a disco sound, and we finally see Clouseau’s supercar, 'The Silver Hornet,' which had the ability to break down all the time. It was a Citroën 2CV named after The Green Hornet, and they’d added a few extra fins to it."

I remember as a little boy I got so excited when Peter Sellers’ Inspector Clouseau hyped up using the Silver Hornet - only for it to be a big let down. Now I understand that it was supposed to be a joke.

This post will probably really piss off four or five guys. There seems to be an emotional attachment to KAC guns which is stronger than almost any other brand.

[SecondsCount]

Oh man.

KAC guns remind me of Inspector Clouseau’s car, the Silver Hornet.

"The influence of the 1970s and James Bond were beginning to catch up with the series by now, and the theme music took on a disco sound, and we finally see Clouseau’s supercar, 'The Silver Hornet,' which had the ability to break down all the time. It was a Citroën 2CV named after The Green Hornet, and they’d added a few extra fins to it."

I remember as a little boy I got so excited when Peter Sellers’ Inspector Clouseau hyped up using the Silver Hornet - only for it to be a big let down. Now I understand that it was supposed to be a joke.

This post will probably really piss off four or five guys. There seems to be an emotional attachment to KAC guns which is stronger than almost any other brand.

Stronger than Colt? ;)

What is your personal experience with the SR-15?

[UNM1136]

There are multiple “duty grade” ARs - Colt, BCM, LMT, DD, Sionics, SOLGW, S&W M&P but Colt set the original standard.

It is an largely an emotional / sentimental choice.

HCM

Love you like a brother. Maybe my information is dated, but my first armorer course was from Ken Elmore. One of the original standards by the CoC to Colt was the TDP. According to Ken, what set the Colt product apart from the run of the mill AR was the inspection process. When Colt lost the .mil contract they had 340 separate inspection stations on the line... they continued to employ those people on the line to inspect and certify the end products as .mil spec. Colt setting the initial standard meant an adherence to quality control. Don't know what has changed today, but yes, there are others that meet the spec ...MilSpec governs everything from hot pocket to aglets.

What milspec is the question.

pat

[Old Man Winter]

There are many solid choices for quality AR's with BCM being one of those. Regarding Colt, I no longer have blind faith in their products and don't give two poo's about having a pony roll mark on my gun. Once Colt started licensing their name to other makers and releasing "expanse" carbines, I figured all of their civilian AR/M4 offerings were likely compromised to some degree. Factor in Colt's we hate you almost as much as HK does viewpoint and I'm good letting them live or die on the government sales sword.

[cornstalker]

It looks like it might be time.

It seems like a lot of “common knowledge” went down the memory hole the last few years. Looking at a few threads around here recently, some of us who’ve been through all this may yet have something to offer.

I, for one, would appreciate that. The older I get, the less I want to spend my time picking the fly shit out of the pepper. Notes from those that have already done that, and know what they are talking about, are invaluable.

[Jay Cunningham]

Stronger than Colt? ;)

What is your personal experience with the SR-15?

My personal experience is simply what I’ve witnessed with my own eyes in hundreds of hours of training and practice since 2006 - which is - the small number of KAC guns (of all types) have had a disproportionally high incidence of issues.

The majority have been cycle issues, such as short-stroking. Always explained away by needing to tweak ammo/springs, which is fine. But these are boutique guns with a boutique price tag claimed to be covered with awesome sauce. Seen a small number of extraction and ejection issues as well, but mainly the finicky operating cycle. To be completely fair, I’ve also seen very similar issues with 14.5” mid length guns (from various manufacturers).

I have no beef with KAC, but I’d never spend the money on one. It might be because I’m not at the level that I can wring the extra performance out of the hardware. I acknowledge that.

[HCM]

HCM

Love you like a brother. Maybe my information is dated, but my first armorer course was from Ken Elmore. One of the original standards by the CoC to Colt was the TDP. According to Ken, what set the Colt product apart from the run of the mill AR was the inspection process. When Colt lost the .mil contract they had 340 separate inspection stations on the line... they continued to employ those people on the line to inspect and certify the end products as .mil spec. Colt setting the initial standard meant an adherence to quality control. Don't know what has changed today, but yes, there are others that meet the spec ...MilSpec governs everything from hot pocket to aglets.

What milspec is the question.

pat

How long ago was that Armorers course ? There was a time when “ABC” (Armalite, Bushmaster, Colt) was the best of what was available and Colt was the only one making a gun to full spec including QC processes. That was 20 years ago. A long war and the renaissance of the ARs in the wake of the AWB sunset has changed a lot.

Despite the signal to noise ratios, another thing that has changed since then is increased availability of quality information.

As you said Colt set the standard but today they are no longer the only company who maintains it via proper inspection processes.

There is now definitely such a thing a better than Colt /Milspec, KAC, Hodge, etc. is that necessary ? Not for most (including me) but it’s nice to have.

Going back to the inspection process, yes it makes a difference. The starkest illustration of this is when companies like Rock River and Bushmaster had to make guns to the TDP spec including the inspection processes for FBI /DEA and TX DPS. Unsurprisingly, those guns did not have the issues their commercial guns did.

Despite those contracts you won’t see me equating BM or RR commercial guns with Colt commercial guns. These companies are capable of making a “spec” AR and deliberately choose not to do so in pursuit of additional profit.

This also isn’t like growing pains we see in new designers like Glock’s 40 year head start vs SIGs P320. The AR is a mature design and the specs and processes for making a “proper” AR are well established.

I own several Colts. Like many things I like them but I try to be realistic about what they are and are not.

[orionz06]

The majority have been cycle issues, such as short-stroking. Always explained away by needing to tweak ammo/springs, which is fine. But these are boutique guns with a boutique price tag claimed to be covered with awesome sauce. Seen a small number of extraction and ejection issues as well, but mainly the finicky operating cycle. To be completely fair, I’ve also seen very similar issues with 14.5” mid length guns (from various manufacturers).

Would you say that those folks were gun-poor and shooting less than useful ammo for the fancy blaster that they've modded to the edge of reliability?

[HCM]

Would you say that those folks were gun-poor and shooting less than useful ammo for the fancy blaster that they've modded to the edge of reliability?

Good question.

Sample of one but I ran about 2k rounds of premium federal brand ammo through an older GOV property SR-16 in a week long patrol rifle class without issue.

[Jay Cunningham]

I’d say that the KAC guns weren’t modded - people thought they were paying the money to get the reliability and accuracy out of the box, kind of like Wilson Combat.

I really don’t think anyone was running Wolf out of their KAC guns, either. A lot of them were finicky even with “good” ammo as far as I could tell.

In the other cases with the 14.5” mid lengths in general yes I think there was a lot of messing around and underpowered ammo and buffers which were too heavy for the application.

[orionz06]

Good question.

Sample of one but I ran about 2k rounds of premium federal brand ammo through an older GOV property SR-16 in a week long patrol rifle class without issue.

That would strike me as a reliable combo.

[Jay Cunningham]

Good question.

Sample of one but I ran about 2k rounds of premium federal brand ammo through an older GOV property SR-16 in a week long patrol rifle class without issue.

I’ve also seen KAC guns run flawlessly. I’ve also seen Bushmasters and DPMS run flawlessly and everything in between.

I expected to be more impressed by KAC guns because of the mystique and the price tag.

I would say that out of the box Colt and BCM are reliable. S&W can be made very reliable with minor tweaking, and Bushmaster can be made very reliable with major tweaking. DPMS isn’t worth it. Noveskes seem to run well but not enough to justify the expense. I haven’t really seen SiG or SA carbines up close.

[Jay Cunningham]

That would strike me as a reliable combo.

Well it damn well should be for the money, shouldn’t it?

Especially considering I can have the same level of reliability for much less money.

Unless the claim is that a KAC gun with premium ammo is “more” reliable than a Colt 6920 with American Eagle or PMC. 400 rds/day (2000 in a week long course) should not be a stressful thing for the rifle.

[HCM]

I’ve also seen KAC guns run flawlessly. I’ve also seen Bushmasters and DPMS run flawlessly and everything in between.

I expected to be more impressed by KAC guns because of the mystique and the price tag.

I would say that out of the box Colt and BCM are reliable. S&W can be made very reliable with minor tweaking, and Bushmaster can be made very reliable with major tweaking. DPMS isn’t worth it. Noveskes seem to run well but not enough to justify the expense. I haven’t really seen SiG or SA carbines up close.

Your experience with S&W matches mine. Our local PD (2000 officers) doesn’t issue cabinets but had an M&P purchase program through the local POA so we see a lot of them. They have since switched to SOLGW with excellent results.

My experience with Noveske is the only thing special about them is the barrel. Put a Noveske barrel on a 6920 and you won’t be able to tell the difference. My Noveske is accurate and reliable with quality ammo. Change a few variables (like a suppressor) and it will choke.

The US Border Patrol have been running BCM uppers on existing guns for a few years now with excellent results

[HCM]

Well it damn well should be for the money, shouldn’t it?

Especially considering I can have the same level of reliability for much less money.

Unless the claim is that a KAC gun with premium ammo is “more” reliable than a Colt 6920 with American Eagle or PMC. 400 rds/day (2000 in a week long course) should not be a stressful thing for the rifle.

That class was run with loaner rifles provided by the host organization. We had the option of 14.5” Colt M4 or the 14.5” KAC SR-16. These SR-16s were older guns originally purchased for an SRT team. They were ban era pre- Mod1 / pre E3 and had an A frame front sight with a 7” quad rail. They had a sweet KAC trigger though.

[orionz06]

Well it damn well should be for the money, shouldn’t it?

Depends? One could argue that for the money it should be able to run on any dirt blastin' ammo you can find, others could argue that it needs Black Hills only.

[Jay Cunningham]

Depends? One could argue that for the money it should be able to run on any dirt blastin' ammo you can find, others could argue that it needs Black Hills only.

Yeah, it’s the old high octane gasoline argument.

[orionz06]

Yeah, it’s the old high octane gasoline argument.

Not quite, but I get it.

It's more like comparing a Subaru to a Jeep because they both drive all four wheels. People need to understand both their needs and what the products do in order to make a decision.

[Jay Cunningham]

Not quite, but I get it.

It's more like comparing a Subaru to a Jeep because they both drive all four wheels. People need to understand both their needs and what the products do in order to make a decision.

Well, it’s comparing one make of AR-15 rifle to another make of AR-15 rifle.

Things like mean rounds between malfunction and accuracy are directly comparable. After that you can get into nerd stuff like ergonomics and triggers and stuff.

[orionz06]

Well, it’s comparing one make of AR-15 rifle to another make of AR-15 rifle.

You don't select gas based on desired performance (in stock vehicles), you choose what the vehicle requires based on it's compression/timing/etc.

[Jay Cunningham]

Okay, this is too down into the weeds. I’m not smart enough to talk about jeeps and stuff.

I think that we arguably have a baseline - the Colt 6920 - due in large part to rob’s past work. I think we can back off that baseline to a point and still have a very effective weapon. We can also exceed the specs to a point and add features which don’t detract and are still affordable within reason.

But we can back off too far and get an unreliable and inaccurate weapon prone to breaking and we can also go too far in the other direction past the point of diminishing returns.

[Jay Cunningham]

You don't select gas based on desired performance (in stock vehicles), you choose what the vehicle requires based on it's compression/timing/etc.

There is a spec for ammo used in the Colt rifle - it’s part of the TDP. Ken Elmore talked all about this in the armorer class I took.

Some people think that a “good” rifle should “eat anything”. I can understand that point of view. However, there is a spec.

ARs are so easy to tweak, you can tighten or loosen how they run on any given ammo type ad infinitum.

[orionz06]

Okay, this is too down into the weeds. I’m not smart enough to talk about jeeps and stuff.

The gas analogy was just incorrect. The Jeep Wrangler vs Subaru Impreza was more in line with what you were going for. Or we could use alcohol, or anything. Why drink craft beer when all you wanna do is forget about your miserable life and Bud does that just fine? Or you can drink wine and try to be fancy and tag people on Instagram?



I think that we arguably have a baseline - the Colt 6920 - due in large part to rob’s past work. I think we can back off that baseline to a point and still have a very effective weapon. We can also exceed the specs to a point and add features which don’t detract and are still affordable within reason.

But we can back off too far and get an unreliable and inaccurate weapon prone to breaking and we can also go too far in the other direction past the point of diminishing returns.

Yup. And I'd argue that any base BCM or Colt rifle is the point of diminishing returns.




There is a spec for ammo used in the Colt rifle - it’s part of the TDP. Ken Elmore talked all about this in the armorer class I took.

Some people think that a “good” rifle should “eat anything”. I can understand that point of view. However, there is a spec.

ARs are so easy to tweak, you can tighten or loosen how they run on any given ammo type ad infinitum.

The ammo thing here, that's where folks get screwed up.

[MistWolf]

There is a spec for ammo used in the Colt rifle - it’s part of the TDP. Ken Elmore talked all about this in the armorer class I took.

Some people think that a “good” rifle should “eat anything”. I can understand that point of view. However, there is a spec.

ARs are so easy to tweak, you can tighten or loosen how they run on any given ammo type ad infinitum.

Yes. I don't understand the obsession that an AR has to function with the weakest lowest quality ammo. The ammo I use is about 30 cents a round, is almost always in stock, delivers about 2.5 moa or better in everything I have and using the same ammo means minimal fiddling with the sights.

[Jay Cunningham]

The gas analogy was just incorrect. The Jeep Wrangler vs Subaru Impreza was more in line with what you were going for.

I wasn’t trying to make an analogy with my dumb statement. I was attempting some kind of abbreviated common sense commentary on “you buy a high performance machine you can’t justify putting crap fuel in it”.

I will never mention high octane gas ever again.

[orionz06]

I wasn’t trying to make an analogy with my dumb statement. I was attempting some kind of abbreviated common sense commentary on “you buy a high performance machine you can’t justify putting crap fuel in it”.

I will never mention high octane gas ever again.

Right, but 85 octane fuel isn't necessarily bad. It's a measurement. Not that it's relevant to the thread, but now you know. 93 isn't necessarily better either.

[TGS]

Right, but 85 octane fuel isn't necessarily bad. It's a measurement. Not that it's relevant to the thread, but now you know. 93 isn't necessarily better either.

Dude.

[Jay Cunningham]

Right, but 85 octane fuel isn't necessarily bad. It's a measurement. Not that it's relevant to the thread, but now you know. 93 isn't necessarily better either.

Uncle.

[SecondsCount]

Great discussion.

When these threads come up it always seems like the Glock 19 / Colt 6920 decision must be defended. They are fine guns but not all of us have found them to be the best for our use.

While I own a 6920, I don't feel that it is the most reliable AR that I have, and definitely not the most accurate. I know there has been a lot of arguments about the midlength system but my experience with them over the last 10 years has been stellar. One is a BCM, and the other is a Sabre Defense barreled upper, both running a standard weight carbine buffer, Magpul PMAGs. The only time I have seen the BCM choke was when I lent it to a friend and he put some Tula steel cased ammo in it. Not a concern at all as I dont shoot the stuff. They have both seen carbine classes, 3-gun matches, and other shooting events over the last 10 years. I've seen a lot less headeaches at these events with midlength gas systems over the carbine systems.

As far as KAC goes, they make an excellent firearm. The price is what it is because of what it is. My experience with a sample of two has been perfect. A Craftsman hammer will get the job done but it isn't the same as an Estwing :cool:

[orionz06]

When these threads come up it always seems like the Glock 19 / Colt 6920 decision must be defended. They are fine guns but not all of us have found them to be the best for our use.

They are both the baseline or minimum. Requirements beyond their capabilities or due to specialization change things.

[Jay Cunningham]

They are both the baseline or minimum. Requirements beyond their capabilities or due to specialization change things.

Another way to look at it is that these are both absolutely known quantities with years behind them and massive amounts of data.

[rob_s]

They are both the baseline or minimum. Requirements beyond their capabilities or due to specialization change things.


Another way to look at it is that these are both absolutely known quantities with years behind them and massive amounts of data.

and these facts seem to have different effects on different people at different times in their lives or shooting "career".

I used to buy all sorts of products (guns, cars, stereos, tools, etc.), when I was younger and had more time than money or sense, with an eye towards potential for customization. I was convinced that I had all these special needs, special use cases, and particular requirements that would inevitably require me to customize things to my purpose.

Now that I have more money than time (and probably even less sense), I want off the shelf. The idea of fiddle-fuck just makes my skin crawl, and I've finally realized that ubiquitous and status quo are way more valuable than the number of threaded inserts the product has available for me to bolt more shit onto later.

The more experience I have, in more realms and arenas, the more I realize that this is a near universal thing.

People say that the 6920, or the Glock 19 "don't work for them". That statement means completely different things base on the person making it and their relative experience, skill level, and general knowledge (not to mention maturity).

Here is a somewhat relevant graph I made many moons ago.

42886

[SecondsCount]

........

People say that the 6920, or the Glock 19 "don't work for them". That statement means completely different things base on the person making it and their relative experience, skill level, and general knowledge (not to mention maturity).

.....

When you shoot pistols at 21 feet and carbines inside of 100 yards, then it probably makes a lot of sense.

[rob_s]

When you shoot pistols at 21 feet and carbines inside of 100 yards, then it probably makes a lot of sense.

What I probably should have said was
That statement means completely different things base on the person making it and their relative experience, use-case, skill level, and general knowledge (not to mention maturity).

Of course, we go too far down that path and you'll have someone squaking about how a 6920 or a Glock 19 can't shoot skeet. My original statement was meant within a certain set of (implied, if unclear) parameters.

But I'd draw those lines way, way further out than 7 and 100 yards, based on what I've been able to achieve personally and particularly given what I've seen other accomplish. But hey, if people need to go shoot pistols at 50 yards to be able to rule the Glock 19 out as a viable option, that's cool too.