P320 issue in PA

[GJM]

https://whyy.org/articles/septa-police-to-get-new-service-weapons-after-sig-pistol-accidentally-fires-at-suburban-station/

[KellyinAvon]

Glock: only going bang when you pull the trigger since 1982.

Busch said SEPTA made an emergency purchase of 350 new Glock 17s and holsters to replace the P320s.

He said the transit agency chose the Glock because the model is known to be safe and reliable, and manufacturers can produce the firearm quickly.

[HCM]

https://whyy.org/articles/septa-police-to-get-new-service-weapons-after-sig-pistol-accidentally-fires-at-suburban-station/

The first question is - was it and upgraded or post upgrade gun ?

If not - it’s just another example of a known issue.

[El Cid]

Glock: only going bang when you pull the trigger since 1982.

Busch said SEPTA made an emergency purchase of 350 new Glock 17s and holsters to replace the P320s.

He said the transit agency chose the Glock because the model is known to be safe and reliable, and manufacturers can produce the firearm quickly.

Well... I love Glock and carry 2 daily. But they did have a slam fire incident in NYPD early on. Was it before ‘82?

[GJM]

What seems odd, is I believe the article says the 320 wasn’t dropped, it went off in his holster walking around.

[Caballoflaco]

The first question is - was it and upgraded or post upgrade gun ?

If not - it’s just another example of a known issue.

They were upgraded guns according to the article.

“But the company did respond to reports of drop firing with a “voluntary upgrade program” for owners. The program offered free modifications to the P320, including the lighter trigger, designed to prevent such occurrences. SEPTA’s guns were among those upgraded in 2017, SEPTA said.”

[El Cid]

What seems odd, is I believe the article says the 320 wasn’t dropped, it went off in his holster walking around.

Could’ve been bubba-smithed I suppose. It’s a bit warm for a jacket to have a pull tab get inside the holster.

[Kanye Wyoming]

The first question is - was it and upgraded or post upgrade gun ?

If not - it’s just another example of a known issue.
Article says “SEPTA’s guns were among those upgraded in 2017, SEPTA said.”

Whether that’s actually true remains to be seen. I took a SEPTA train from/to and then to/from the very Suburban Station where this occurred for years. Let’s just say I wouldn’t be surprised to learn it’s customary for Swiss parents to tell their children that if they misbehave they will be sent to work for SEPTA.

[TGS]

The first question is - was it and upgraded or post upgrade gun ?

If not - it’s just another example of a known issue.

Is it a known issue, though? I only knew of the drop safety issue, not the gun-randomly-goes-boom issue.

[MGW]

I bet it snagged on those silly sights.

[breakingtime91]

reading the article it appears this isnt a lone case.. uh wtf

[Zman001]

What holsters? Iirc the last thread about sigs going off involved one of those safariland wml holsters you can squeeze your finger onto the trigger

[GJM]

reading the article it appears this isnt a lone case.. uh wtf

The person saying is wasn’t an isolated case is a plaintiff’s lawyer with a lawsuit against Sig — hardly an unbiased source.

[s0nspark]

The person saying is wasn’t an isolated case is a plaintiff’s lawyer with a lawsuit against Sig — hardly an unbiased source.

It does bring the count to at least 3...

I must say - it is unsettling enough to worry about a gun not being drop safe. Feeling like you can't trust holstered gun not to fire elevates that to a whole new level.

[Doc_Glock]

The first question is - was it and upgraded or post upgrade gun ?

If not - it’s just another example of a known issue.

Article stated it was upgraded.

Article also reads like a Glock ad[emoji41]

[GJM]

It does bring the count to at least 3...

I must say - it is unsettling enough to worry about a gun not being drop safe. Feeling like you can't trust holstered gun not to fire elevates that to a whole new level.

It depends on why the gun fired. Something about the holster design, something that got into the trigger guard, or a spontaneous discharge?

This is a thread from SigForum on an X Compact that fired in the holster, apparently because of a fit issue.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/1160027954

[MGW]

Seems unlikely that a tight holster fit would cause a pistol to fire. I would think the trigger guard would create enough space to keep this from happening.

But to paraphrase Langdon striker guns set up like SA guns without safeties is just asking for trouble.

[HCM]

Is it a known issue, though? I only knew of the drop safety issue, not the gun-randomly-goes-boom issue.

Drops are not the only impact that can set off a striker gun that is not 100% drop safe. One of the PDs In MD had an FNS go off in a duty holster when the officer wearing it bumped the gun into a steel door frame.

[HCM]

Glock: only going bang when you pull the trigger since 1982.

Busch said SEPTA made an emergency purchase of 350 new Glock 17s and holsters to replace the P320s.

He said the transit agency chose the Glock because the model is known to be safe and reliable, and manufacturers can produce the firearm quickly.

Yeah... no.

I carry a personal Glock on duty in lieu of a 320 but perfection they are not.

Glock has been around for 40 years. In 1990 or 1991, DEA testing revealed that the original Glocks with the black internals were not drop safe.

Glock’s response was an upgrade program in lieu of a recall. Sound familiar ?

[s0nspark]

Glock’s response was an upgrade program in lieu of a recall. Sound familiar ?

Upgrade versus recall is largely PR semantics. The important part is taking ownership of the problem and making it right IMO..

The thing that bothers me about Sig, though, is that they acknowledged and corrected for the drop safee issue for the military but continued to sell the original design to consumer and LEO markets.

I'm sure it was a business decision based on their risk analysis but I still find it extremely distasteful. One of many reasons the P320 was the last product from them I'll ever own.

[Steven T]

Glock played the “not a recall” of their pistols in the early 90s just like Sig. After issues arose Glock suggested you send in your pistol to the factory to be looked at, and then it was shipped back with nice shiny new upgraded parts. It however was not a recall. I am aware of 3 pistols in my area that were affected. Two of them would go auto, 1 was my brand new G22 the other was a brand new G17. I am somewhat skeptical of the event in the article, but shit happens and Sig needs to address it ASAP.

[s0nspark]

It does bring the count to at least 3...

Well, definitely more than 3.

https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/news/2019/05/01/pasco-school-officer-gun-fired-when-bumped-troubled-history

It will be interesting to see if the duty holster used is a common factor.

[BillSWPA]

Does anyone know of any drop testing done on a P365?



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[Zman001]

Glock played the “not a recall” of their pistols in the early 90s just like Sig. After issues arose Glock suggested you send in your pistol to the factory to be looked at, and then it was shipped back with nice shiny new upgraded parts. It however was not a recall. I am aware of 3 pistols in my area that were affected. Two of them would go auto, 1 was my brand new G22 the other was a brand new G17. I am somewhat skeptical of the event in the article, but shit happens and Sig needs to address it ASAP.



Releasing a pistol with such an issue is unacceptable, but did glock, when the issue was discovered, ignore the report and continue to sell unsafe pistols, then when word got out, did they blame the user for the problem?

Because thats what sig did. A design screw up is one thing. Apathy towards your customers is another.

[Greg]

Seems unlikely that a tight holster fit would cause a pistol to fire. I would think the trigger guard would create enough space to keep this from happening.

But to paraphrase Langdon striker guns set up like SA guns without safeties is just asking for trouble.

This.

[TGS]

Drops are not the only impact that can set off a striker gun that is not 100% drop safe. One of the PDs In MD had an FNS go off in a duty holster when the officer wearing it bumped the gun into a steel door frame.

People on PAFOA local to Philly are saying that SPDs P320s had the drop-safety upgrade.

Does that make a difference in your assessment that this is just another instance of a known issue?


Glock: only going bang when you pull the trigger since 1982.

Busch said SEPTA made an emergency purchase of 350 new Glock 17s and holsters to replace the P320s.

He said the transit agency chose the Glock because the model is known to be safe and reliable, and manufacturers can produce the firearm quickly.

To be fair, Glock has a history of releasing pistols on the market without much testing and letting the end-user be the beta tester. A very strong history of such, moreso than any other manufacturer.

The drop-safety issue mentioned by HCM, the "phase III malfunction" issue, the Gen 4 issue, the WML issue are what I can think of off the top of my head.

[EVP]

Good move on whomever decided to quickly and decisively move to another pistol before another incident that could be tragic.

[Galbraith]

Does anyone know of any drop testing done on a P365?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mine fell out of my locker onto the concrete floor. Right on the back of the slide at the "magic" impact angle. No boom.

[GJM]

Do we know exactly what happened and what the theory is as to why it happened? There are a lot of 320 pistols out there in military, LE and individual use, and if they were going off in the holster, we would know that pretty quickly.

[Galbraith]

Article stated it was upgraded.

Article also reads like a Glock ad[emoji41]

Major propaganda war between Glock and Sig right now. It's the gun world of Democrats vs Republicans.

[HCM]

Do we know exactly what happened and what the theory is as to why it happened? There are a lot of 320 pistols out there in military, LE and individual use, and if they were going off in the holster, we would know that pretty quickly.

Nothing public about the in holster ND involving the FL SRO. I’m hearing That one did not “just go off” as originally reported.

[Gadfly]

I find myself wanting a tab’ed trigger for my 320. It seems like an easy, cheap addition. And as has been mentioned on this forum before, Sig makes one, but won’t sell it...

Seems like a reasonable fix for things like the tight holster fit mentioned above. Even if the holster can put tension on the outer edge of the trigger, the tab would prevent movement.

This is one of those $1.78 cost per gun that Sig should really offer as an option.


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[Texaspoff]

I'm not siding or bashing either Sig or Glock in any way, but Glocks had their fair of issues when they were first released. Even to the point of setting up a machining facility at the NYPD to rectify phase 3 malfunctions, IE re cutting ejection port angles. The point is Glock has been around for over 30 years and has had more time to work out the bugs for the most part.


The 320 has only been around roughly 4 years. They have had and will have growing pains like all the others. Sig is going down the same road Glock did. Won some major contracts, and are pushing products out without sufficient testing, and I don't mean the industry standard stuff.

In this day and time, especially if they are going after Mil or LE contracts, manufacturers should have their guns trial run in real world scenarios up to and including what you would think could never happen. Example is Glocks being thrown off buildings and out of planes, silly as that seems, tests like that can produce issue that can be evaluated and fixed if deemed a serious enough problem. Then you don't have guns going off when dropped, or guns jamming under multi fire situations, IE a gunfight.

If you would have drug a P320 behind a truck for a mile down a gravel road, do you think the drop fire issue may have been found prior to release? More than once I have seen pistols come out of holsters during foot chases, and not just hit the ground at one angle and stop. Quite often they bounce around all over at multiple angles until they come to rest. Throwing a 320 around like that might have also found the drop flaw.

Using voluntary upgrades, and/or recalls if a serious enough problem comes up, to iron out those issues. This is the world of big business, unfortunately in gun manufacturing, flaws can equate to serious liabilities.


As I have said before, I still carry Glocks almost exclusively on and off duty, because of their history and track record, not because they are better than everything else. I trust the Glock pistol design 100% to function as the design is proven. I know anything can fail, but the base design has proven itself utterly reliable aside from a faulty part that may enter the equation . I also own several 320's and like the platform quite a bit. As it ages, it will mature into a solid firearm and I have no doubt and will continue to do well.



TXPO

[s0nspark]

Major propaganda war between Glock and Sig right now. It's the gun world of Democrats vs Republicans.

But... Which is which?

Nevermind - I know who makes the rainbow guns [emoji38]

[s0nspark]

I also own several 320's and like the platform quite a bit. As it ages, it will mature into a solid firearm and I have no doubt and will continue to do well.


I certainly think the contracts they have won put them on the path...

I just wish company leadership would focus on better QC and more extensive testing ... and less on "fashionable" aesthetics to woo new or casual gun owners.

[Steven T]

Releasing a pistol with such an issue is unacceptable, but did glock, when the issue was discovered, ignore the report and continue to sell unsafe pistols, then when word got out, did they blame the user for the problem?

Because thats what sig did. A design screw up is one thing. Apathy towards your customers is another.

I can’t say exactly how long it was time wise, as there wasn’t almost instantaneous information available like today. Glock never called it a recall but eventually advertised in the gun magazines as a safety upgrade. I do know that when I spoke with Glock on the phone that I wasn’t informed of the known issue. Just we suggest you send it in, it wasn’t until later that I learned what the issue was. So yeah I kinda of feel like that is what happened. I own several Glocks so I’m not bashing them, just pointing out that they aren’t innocent. I think most firearms companies have done the same in recent years.

[AMC]

Nothing public about the in holster ND involving the FL SRO. I’m hearing That one did not “just go off” as originally reported.

This is what we were told as well. We were also told that the investigation was complete and the involved deputy would be terminated within the week. None of that has come to pass.....I'm gonna have some pointed questions for our new rep and the higher ups when I see them.

[BillSWPA]

Does anyone know of any drop testing done on a P365?



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Found this answer to my question. Apparently Sig now uses an extensive drop test procedure for new pistols including the P365 but is not applying it to pre-existing designs.

http://soldiersystems.net/2018/01/08/introducing-the-sig-sauer-p365/

[CanineCombatives]

Been a while since we had some red meat for the sig haters here to feast on.

[HCM]

I find myself wanting a tab’ed trigger for my 320. It seems like an easy, cheap addition. And as has been mentioned on this forum before, Sig makes one, but won’t sell it...

Seems like a reasonable fix for things like the tight holster fit mentioned above. Even if the holster can put tension on the outer edge of the trigger, the tab would prevent movement.

This is one of those $1.78 cost per gun that Sig should really offer as an option.


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Tight holster fit might be a collateral benefit but just to clarify, tabbed triggers are an inertia / drop safety not a “manual safety on the trigger.”

[Bucky]

Tight holster fit might be a collateral benefit but just to clarify, tabbed triggers are an inertia / drop safety not a “manual safety on the trigger.”

True, but there is the added benefit where if a holster is tight enough to drag on the sides of the trigger, it could prevent it from being pulled.

[DpdG]

Given this incident likely involved a duty style holster, I suspect if the holster played any role is was likely too loose, not too tight. Many of the light bearing duty holsters have a gap around the base of the trigger guard big enough that small objects, i.e. strings, key lanyards, etc... can enter the holster directly around the trigger. Best as I can tell, this issue effects pretty much any pistol or duty holster combo using the common x300/TLR-1 style lights, as it is primarily a function of the width of the light.

[Hambo]

Mine fell out of my locker onto the concrete floor. Right on the back of the slide at the "magic" impact angle. No boom.

Bet your butt puckered, though. ;)

[Galbraith]

Bet your butt puckered, though. ;)

Tighter than a snare drum ;)

[OlongJohnson]

The upgrade changed some masses and maybe springs to alter the timing relationships when things are impacted inertially. It didn't fundamentally change the design that I'm aware of. With the Glock action or an S&W SD action, something would have to physically break for the action to lose control of the striker. That is still not the case for the P320. What Tom and others described back at the time was conceptually adding a feature that would physically block rotation of the sear until the trigger bar moved forward; that was not done.

Given that an upgraded P320 can be dropped from several feet onto concrete and not fire, it's hard to think that getting out of a cart somehow led to an inertial impact that caused it to fire. There was probably something else going on.

[Jason M]

There several departments in the SE PA area that field P320 pistols of one variety or another. This is being watched by many with great interest. I do know that at least one job has sought a response directly from Sig to the question “WTF!?!? Y’all said these were now good to go!” I’m curious to see what response they will receive after all the facts of this incident are revealed.

[JHC]

The upgrade changed some masses and maybe springs to alter the timing relationships when things are impacted inertially. It didn't fundamentally change the design that I'm aware of. With the Glock action or an S&W SD action, something would have to physically break for the action to lose control of the striker. That is still not the case for the P320. What Tom and others described back at the time was conceptually adding a feature that would physically block rotation of the sear until the trigger bar moved forward; that was not done.

Given that an upgraded P320 can be dropped from several feet onto concrete and not fire, it's hard to think that getting out of a cart somehow led to an inertial impact that caused it to fire. There was probably something else going on.

Does the thumb safety on say, the M17 block the trigger from moving or the striker from falling? Asking for ~100K friends. ;)

[GJM]

If this was a Glock, we would all be saying let’s see some more information before jumping to conclusions. Since it involves a 320, this just lights the old fire again. I wouldn’t bet either way as to what happened. There are an awful lot of 320 pistols out in circulation, so if they are spontaneously going off, we will know soon.

[jnc36rcpd]

I do't know anything about current management in the SEPTA PD, but it strikes me (no pun intended) that an immediate purchase of new handguns coupled with the loan from Philadelphia PD is significant. Most unintentional discharges are human induced. Police administrators know this. They are also prone to defend themselves and each other. Few want to admit making a significant financial blunder like purchasing unsafe pistols (especially not when the guns are discharging in subway stations). I would have expected an "investigation" or at least suspicion that Officer Smedlap was screwing around with his gun rather than an immediate replacement decision.

That could be due to abssolute proof in SEPTA PD's eyes that the pistol spontaneously discharged or it could be the result of significant anti-SIG opinion in the SEPTA command staff or training cadre.

[John Hearne]

I remain a bit skeptical. As designed the upgraded P320 seems to be a solid design. The striker is physically locked and cannot move forward unless an arm activated by the trigger is pushed up. The only explanations that make sense to me are manipulation of the trigger in some fashion or out of spec parts that are defeating the original design.

[cheby]

I am so done with any striker fired pistol. Langdon summed it up very well some time ago.

[HALO51]

I remain a bit skeptical. As designed the upgraded P320 seems to be a solid design. The striker is physically locked and cannot move forward unless an arm activated by the trigger is pushed up. The only explanations that make sense to me are manipulation of the trigger in some fashion or out of spec parts that are defeating the original design.

I've read your post several times and I'm not following. At first you're a "bit skeptical", then "or out of spec parts that are defeating the original design" I hope it's NOT an "out of spec" part. I hope it turns out to be duty rig related. However, Sig's QC has been suspect for last several years. Tiny, dainty designed inner workings none the less. Sig is 35 years late to the party.

[John Hearne]

I've read your post several times and I'm not following. At first you're a "bit skeptical", then "or out of spec parts that are defeating the original design" I hope it's NOT an "out of spec" part. I hope it turns out to be duty rig related. However, Sig's QC has been suspect for last several years. Tiny, dainty designed inner workings none the less. Sig is 35 years late to the party.

Sorry for the lack of clarity. I am very skeptical of spontaneous discharges without manipulation of the trigger. The lock on the striker seems very solid to me. If striker is moving forward, something is deactivating the lock on the striker or the design itself is being defeated by out of spec parts. This wouldn't be the first time that some form of tolerance stacking caused drop safe issues.

[HALO51]

Sorry for the lack of clarity. I am very skeptical of spontaneous discharges without manipulation of the trigger. The lock on the striker seems very solid to me. If striker is moving forward, something is deactivating the lock on the striker or the design itself is being defeated by out of spec parts. This wouldn't be the first time that some form of tolerance stacking caused drop safe issues.
Yes, I agree. If it turns out to be a Sig problem, I hope they get ahead of the problem and not continue to show "apathetic approach"

[DpdG]

The upgrade changed some masses and maybe springs to alter the timing relationships when things are impacted inertially. It didn't fundamentally change the design that I'm aware of. With the Glock action or an S&W SD action, something would have to physically break for the action to lose control of the striker. That is still not the case for the P320. What Tom and others described back at the time was conceptually adding a feature that would physically block rotation of the sear until the trigger bar moved forward; that was not done.

Given that an upgraded P320 can be dropped from several feet onto concrete and not fire, it's hard to think that getting out of a cart somehow led to an inertial impact that caused it to fire. There was probably something else going on.

I’m not sure I agree with you on this aspect. Prior to the upgrade, manually depressing the sear did not cause the trigger to move. Post upgrade, manually depressing the sear does move the trigger, indicating the sear is fully controlled by the trigger bar. I have not yet fully disassembled the sear assembly on a post upgrade gun, but I think Sig did change the interface between trigger bar and sear.

Whether that has any bearing on the SEPTA incident I have no idea, but lacking a total failure of multiple layers of safety mechanisms I’m drawing a blank as to how this could occur absent the trigger being depressed somehow.

[Leroy Suggs]

Someone or something depressed the trigger. The pistol discharged.

[runcible]

Someone or something depressed the trigger. The pistol discharged.

If you have supporting video of the incident, I'd love to see it, too!

[Galbraith]

I recently attended the P320 and P365 LE armorers courses, and got some more info on how the mechanism works.

The short answer is, if the P320 is upgraded and the parts are in spec and installed properly, it would require the trigger to be pulled in order to discharge the pistol. The mechanics of the new design have several layers of safety for cartridge discharge alone. Lets say that the striker is released even if the trigger is not pulled. The striker still must clear the second sear catch(designed with the upgrade as an additional safety), then it must clear the striker safety itself.

Now, there are several "possible" issues that could compromise the safeties surrounding the striker, but those issues would be caused by incorrect parts installed(or not installed at all), or someone trying to modify the parts. For instance, the new sear design requires the use of the gen 3 striker, and a gen 1 or 2 would cause the sear to unseat and clear both the sear catches. However, now the striker must clear the striker safety. If a 1st gen safety lever was left in the gun, and the required reset spring for it was not used or installed properly, then the safety lever could stay in the up position if dirty which could "in theory" deactivate the striker safety. The gen 2 safety lever does not need a spring to return to the deactivated position, so I suppose it is possible that a 1st generation safety lever could have been in the gun and the person who put the gun together left out the reset spring thinking that it wasn't needed.

A lot of f*ck ups with mix-match parts could "in theory" cause the gun to go off without pulling the trigger if the gun were bumped hard enough to cause a 1st or 2nd gen striker to come off of a latest gen sear catch. A "competent" armorer would know the difference, but someone who strips and reassembles a mix of older P320s and newer P320s might mix parts or not install parts which the correct generation resulting in some serious sh*t.

[OlongJohnson]

So what you're saying is that I (OJ, not TJ) would feel better carrying a G48+Gadget+grip mods than a P365XL.

Got it.

[Lester Polfus]

Since this happened in a transit station in a major East Coast city, I would be quite surprised if it WASN'T captured on video. I am tempted to wildly speculate that the video is the reason they did an emergency purchase of new guns, and fielded borrowed pistols in the interim, instead of looking for a way to fry the involved officer.

Having said that, I'd be interested in knowing about other factors as well. I was behind an officer in line at *$ the other day, and found myself looking down into the huge gap around his WML equipped Glock trigger guard thinking all sorts of stuff could get in there and wreak havoc, not only causing an AD but also potentially jamming the gun in the holster. I lived through the years when one of our Sergeants carried a pair of EMT shears for the express purpose of cutting the adjusting cords with the little barrel locks off people's jackets, and it's like we haven't learned anything.

I'm super skeptical of the "it just went off" story, but if this guy was just walking around doing his job and the gun randomly discharged in the holster, I feel pretty bad for him.

[TheNewbie]

Since this happened in a transit station in a major East Coast city, I would be quite surprised if it WASN'T captured on video. I am tempted to wildly speculate that the video is the reason they did an emergency purchase of new guns, and fielded borrowed pistols in the interim, instead of looking for a way to fry the involved officer.

Having said that, I'd be interested in knowing about other factors as well. I was behind an officer in line at *$ the other day, and found myself looking down into the huge gap around his WML equipped Glock trigger guard thinking all sorts of stuff could get in there and wreak havoc, not only causing an AD but also potentially jamming the gun in the holster. I lived through the years when one of our Sergeants carried a pair of EMT shears for the express purpose of cutting the adjusting cords with the little barrel locks off people's jackets, and it's like we haven't learned anything.

I'm super skeptical of the "it just went off" story, but if this guy was just walking around doing his job and the gun randomly discharged in the holster, I feel pretty bad for him.


I stopped carrying a WML on my Glock. Way to easy to shoot the gun INSIDE the holster.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

It blocks the trigger bar from moving forward, essentially blocking the trigger from moving. However, with the safety on, the sear can still rotate downward when sufficient force is applied. It should be blocked from movement by the second "leg" added to the sear that sits behind the trigger bar (a change added during the "upgrade" that wasn't mentioned, to the best of my recollection, when they were talking about the changes that were to come), but due to the floating nature of the trigger bar (which is a key part of the trigger reset mechanism -- both pre and post upgrade), the trigger bar can be displaced downward by that second leg which allows the sear to rotate.

I'm sure my description, with all the gratuitous parenthetical garbage, is unclear and confusing but I've tried as long as I'm willing to do so to make it better and this is as good as it gets from me. Sorry.

ETA: While apropos of nothing or really even germane to this discussion, the P365 is pretty much a redesign of the P320 action in to a smaller package (the way they operate is the same, despite all the parts being different -- sort of like the Glock and the CZ P10 series). On the P365, the thumb safety essentially just blocks the sear from moving downward -- or that's what I was able to determine during the time I played with one at SHOT this year.

If I am understanding what you are saying correctly: the P365 Manual Safety is theoretically safer than the P320 Manual Safety since it actually blocks the sear?

[Hambo]

Having said that, I'd be interested in knowing about other factors as well. I was behind an officer in line at *$ the other day, and found myself looking down into the huge gap around his WML equipped Glock trigger guard thinking all sorts of stuff could get in there and wreak havoc, not only causing an AD but also potentially jamming the gun in the holster.

In the end I think we'll find that the problem isn't a SF pistol, it's the plastic bucket design of WML holsters for SF pistols.

[Lester Polfus]

I stopped carrying a WML on my Glock. Way to easy to shoot the gun INSIDE the holster.


In the end I think we'll find that the problem isn't a SF pistol, it's the plastic bucket design of WML holsters for SF pistols.

I left LE before my agency allowed WMLs for general use, so I don't have that much skin in this game. However, when we backpack, at night I secure a condition 3 Glock with WML inside a Safariland retention holster. I feel like it offers a good degree of readiness, while still keeping my five year old from getting ahold of the gun. I do make double damn sure it's really condition three, because there's plenty of room for a little finger to get down in there.

Instead of cramming more lumens into the existing form factors, I think the biggest favor WML manufacturers could do is give us lights that have the same level of output, but fit in a smaller package that is more streamlined to the gun, so the holster doesn't have to resemble the Great Pit of Carkoon.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Nothing public about the in holster ND involving the FL SRO. I’m hearing That one did not “just go off” as originally reported.

I hate to even offer this but a friend of mine had a chance to ask another Sheriff within that department about this case, he just rolled his eyes and said "Guns don't just go off by themselves". That came off to me like he knew what happened, but could only say so much about it.

[TGS]

In the end I think we'll find that the problem isn't a SF pistol, it's the plastic bucket design of WML holsters for SF pistols.


I stopped carrying a WML on my Glock. Way to easy to shoot the gun INSIDE the holster.


I was behind an officer in line at *$ the other day, and found myself looking down into the huge gap around his WML equipped Glock trigger guard thinking all sorts of stuff could get in there and wreak havoc, not only causing an AD but also potentially jamming the gun in the holster.

FWIW, while the legacy ALS/SLS body leaves a lot of room around the trigger guard, the newer 7TS versions don't have this issue.

[AMC]

FWIW, while the legacy ALS/SLS body leaves a lot of room around the trigger guard, the newer 7TS versions don't have this issue.

Beat me to it. Especially the models for compact wmls, like the XC-1, TLR-7 and 550 XL.

[AMC]

So, I talked to someone from the training division at SEMTA. He said they are very confident that the pistol discharged in its holster spontaneously, without the trigger being touched. Wouldn't really get into detail about why they believed that (video or multiple witnesses), or what went Into the immediate decision to buys Glock 17's, or who made the decision. Also said the gun "misfired", so....not sure what level of confidence to place on this report. Fuck, it's hard to get clear answers on this stuff....and it really shouldn't be.

[maxmius83]

If this was a Glock, we would all be saying let’s see some more information before jumping to conclusions. Since it involves a 320, this just lights the old fire again. I wouldn’t bet either way as to what happened. There are an awful lot of 320 pistols out in circulation, so if they are spontaneously going off, we will know soon.

Was my first reaction on reading the article, too. Seems like we'd need a better understanding of exactly what happened with the ND, and also, why the agency so abruptly switched 300+ pistols--throwing away all that investment, training, etc.--on the basis of a single ND. You wonder if there's more of a back story that hasn't come out or won't be released. Not just about the ND incident, but their decision as a whole.

[Jeep]

I've seen some SEPTA officers qualify. I think it is fair to say that some SEPTA officers are less than fully competent in handling their firearms. So while not a SIG 320 fan myself, I'd hold off on assuming that there is something wrong with the pistol and wait for an unbiased report--if there ever is one.

[fly out]

I'll know what happened when they release the video. Until then, it's not data.

[Sammy1]

School Resource Officer had his ALS holstered firearm with WML go off when he was in the school and a kid got his finger down in the gap in the holster and triggered the gun.

[echo5charlie]

SIG responds:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/09/18/septa-p320/

[Totem Polar]

SIG responds:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/09/18/septa-p320/

Thanks for the link. Seems we still don't know what’s up with this incident. Some creative history in the SIG statement, though.

[psalms144.1]

And the same company that stated the P320 met all drop safety requirements before the upgrade. This is TECHNICALLY true, but doesn't change the fact that a dropped pre-upgrade P320 would discharge when it landed on the back of the slide...

[TGS]

What ability does the PPD have to make an assessment that the pistol is functioning properly/in-spec if they don't issue the P320? I'm guessing their armorers are not trained on the P320.

[echo5charlie]

What ability does the PPD have to make an assessment that the pistol is functioning properly/in-spec if they don't issue the P320? I'm guessing their armorers are not trained on the P320.

SIG just blessed PPD with that qualification. Says a lot about SIG...

[echo5charlie]

And the same company that stated the P320 met all drop safety requirements before the upgrade. This is TECHNICALLY true, but doesn't change the fact that a dropped pre-upgrade P320 would discharge when it landed on the back of the slide...

It was drop safe as the manual stated to not carry with a live round in the chamber. Impossible to not be drop safe that way...

[BehindBlueI's]

What ability does the PPD have to make an assessment that the pistol is functioning properly/in-spec if they don't issue the P320? I'm guessing their armorers are not trained on the P320.

I can't speak for them but I know our armorers have been trained on makes other than our issued Glock. When we were "shopping around" two got free slots at a Sig armorer's class. They went wearing Glock hats...

[kwb377]

Edit: Doh! I type slower than that guy^^^



What ability does the PPD have to make an assessment that the pistol is functioning properly/in-spec if they don't issue the P320? I'm guessing their armorers are not trained on the P320.


From the article...


SEPTA sent the P320 in question to the Philadelphia Police Department’s Firearms Forensics Unit...


No reason for their training/maintenance unit to be trained armorer's in any other weapon system than the Glock. Their forensics unit on the other hand...

I'd be willing to bet the Forensics guys have a much broader knowledge and experience base.

Ironically, I carry a P320 on duty. I haven't been to Sig's armorer's school...but I have been to Glock's.

[echo5charlie]

Edit: Doh! I type slower than that guy^^^




From the article...




No reason for their training/maintenance unit to be trained armorer's in any other weapon system than the Glock. Their forensics unit on the other hand...

I'd be willing to bet the Forensics guys have a much broader knowledge and experience base.


Which department of the PPD OFS would be the lead on this then? The FIU seems to be forensic ballistics only, at least by the website.

https://www.phillypolice.com/units/forensics/index.html

[JodyH]

Sorry for the lack of clarity. I am very skeptical of spontaneous discharges without manipulation of the trigger. The lock on the striker seems very solid to me. If striker is moving forward, something is deactivating the lock on the striker or the design itself is being defeated by out of spec parts. This wouldn't be the first time that some form of tolerance stacking caused drop safe issues.

To me this would be even more damning of Sigs QC.
Not only did it slip past QC on initial manufacturing, it also slipped past QC when "upgraded".

I hope for the people carrying Sigs sake this was operator error.

[kwb377]

Which department of the PPD OFS would be the lead on this then? The FIU seems to be forensic ballistics only, at least by the website.

https://www.phillypolice.com/units/forensics/index.html

Dunno...I have zero knowledge of PPD. The article names the Firearms Forensics Unit (FFU?), while the website lists an FIU. I don't know if they're one-in-the-same, or if they both exist as separate entities with different duties.

[AMC]

Our armorer's have a few certifications beyond what we issue, but the forensics guys usually have like a dozen certifications. And we have numerous units involved in firearms ivestigation....FFU, Crime Gun Information Center, etc.

Meeting today with Sig. Definitely gonna need answers.

[GJM]

Sig response:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/09/18/septa-p320/

[PaulDenton]

Sig response:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/09/18/septa-p320/

Huh, so they impulsively sold all 350 guns before they closed their investigation into the incident, just for their forensic department to conclude that the weapon was in perfect function?

This sounds like a problem with the department, not the gun.

[echo5charlie]

Huh, so they impulsively sold all 350 guns before they closed their investigation into the incident, just for their forensic department to conclude that the weapon was in perfect function?

This sounds like a problem with the department, not the gun.

I'd re-read this thread.

[Lester Polfus]

Huh, so they impulsively sold all 350 guns before they closed their investigation into the incident, just for their forensic department to conclude that the weapon was in perfect function?

This sounds like a problem with the department, not the gun.

I think the frustrating thing about these incidents is we never really get to the bottom of them. Back in the mid-oughties, Portland PD had two Glock 21s Ka-boom in rapid succession, so they responded by removing the Glock 21 from service and mandating the 17 or 19 for patrol. Whenever I asked anyone about it, they would just shake their head.

[PaulDenton]

I'd re-read this thread.

Could you be more specific? I’ve seen nothing in this thread as concrete as two separate investigations by the PPD’s Officer Involved Shooting Investigation, and Firearms Forensic Units both determining the gun in question to be in perfect functioning order.

[echo5charlie]

I think the frustrating thing about these incidents is we never really get to the bottom of them. Back in the mid-oughties, Portland PD had two Glock 21s Ka-boom in rapid succession, so they responded by removing the Glock 21 from service and mandating the 17 or 19 for patrol. Whenever I asked anyone about it, they would just shake their head.

A short lifetime ago I ran the IT department for a school district outside of Philly. One beautiful Saturday morning I awoke to several voicemails in regards to a cart of Apple laptops that had caught fire in the library of an elementary school that was attached to the district administration building. The fire damage was relatively small, but the smoke damage stretched beyond my no-experience-in-firefighting-or-investigation belief, regardless it was a significant amount of monetary damage. The one thing that stood out for me and my guys was we had just completed a 100% district-wide battery inspection (there was an industry-wide battery recall at the time) and these were not effected.

Long story short, despite Apple engineers, insurance types, and the cart company suits we were never told as to what the actual cause of the fire was. The company line was: it's been paid for.

My uneducated guess, with the P320 "issues", is that they have been paid for.

[echo5charlie]

Could you be more specific? I’ve seen nothing in this thread as concrete as two separate investigations by the PPD’s Officer Involved Shooting Investigation, and Firearms Forensic Units both determining the gun in question to be in perfect functioning order.

That's what is being reported. Just as the SEPTA cop reporting his P320 discharged without manipulation. Then SIG pulls a weird flex that isn't very tactful. Taking any of these at face value doesn't make sense.

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

[JSGlock34]

Further, it has been determined that SIG SAUER responded quickly and comprehensively to a matter that focused on the negligent handling of a firearm — not a problem with the design or function of the pistol, which has always exceeded all safety standards.

Bravura use of the passive voice.

[s0nspark]

https://www.wjbf.com/top-stories/sc-man-sues-gun-maker-after-pistol-fires-into-his-leg-in-restaurant-restroom

Incident was pre-upgrade, apparently

[AMC]

https://www.wjbf.com/top-stories/sc-man-sues-gun-maker-after-pistol-fires-into-his-leg-in-restaurant-restroom

Incident was pre-upgrade, apparently

Not defending Sig, or their handling of the drop safety issue, but word is that this guy was "Mexican Carrying" his 320. It spontaneously discharged when he shoved it into his pants. Unfortunately, they've made themselves a target for these claims. Who knows what happened in the SEPTA incident....but the Sig guys were pretty confident that the gun didn't just go off. Hard to know, cause the company did "shoot themselves in the foot" metaphorically speaking.

[s0nspark]

Not defending Sig, or their handling of the drop safety issue, but word is that this guy was "Mexican Carrying" his 320. It spontaneously discharged when he shoved it into his pants. Unfortunately, they've made themselves a target for these claims. Who knows what happened in the SEPTA incident....but the Sig guys were pretty confident that the gun didn't just go off. Hard to know, cause the company did "shoot themselves in the foot" metaphorically speaking.

I must admit, my first reaction to anyone saying "the gun just went off" is... Naw, it don't work like that.

If this guy was carrying without a holster? Just goes to show that training - even a lot of it - can bounce right off some people.

[VT1032]

Huh, so they impulsively sold all 350 guns before they closed their investigation into the incident, just for their forensic department to conclude that the weapon was in perfect function?

This sounds like a problem with the department, not the gun.I wonder if they were already pissed about the fact that they had to send the guns back during the "voluntary upgrade" and they were just looking for an excuse to justify dumping them. It could also be that the person/people that were the driving force behind adopting them moved on, whether that was a chief or firearms instructors or whoever. I'm no sig fan and would much prefer to carry a Glock but even then, their reaction seems a bit hasty.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[BehindBlueI's]

I think the frustrating thing about these incidents is we never really get to the bottom of them.

The public doesn't, and the rank-and-file officer doesn't. That's by design.

[GJM]

I have absolutely no idea what happened. I am confident, that if 320 pistols are firing themselves, this won’t be the only one.

The speed of this investigation seems reminiscent of one of Putin’s aircraft accident investigations, where he issues a probable cause before the fire is fully extinguished at the accident site.

[Amp]

A lawsuit has been filed against a firearms manufacturer after a Horry County man claims his handgun discharged and the bullet hit him in the leg while at a Grand Strand Chick-fil-A.

https://www.live5news.com/2019/09/17/man-sues-weapons-manufacturer-m-after-gun-allegedly-discharges-hits-him-leg-chick-fil-a/

[JodyH]

I wonder if they were already pissed about the fact that they had to send the guns back during the "voluntary upgrade" and they were just looking for an excuse to justify dumping them.
That's my thought as well (because that's how I personally view the four P320's I have sitting on the very back shelf of my back room safe).
I should have known better after getting three different "classics" (P229's and a M11A1) that all required wildly different custom Dawson front sights to be even close to zero to stay away from newish Sigs...

[GJM]

A lawsuit has been filed against a firearms manufacturer after a Horry County man claims his handgun discharged and the bullet hit him in the leg while at a Grand Strand Chick-fil-A.

https://www.live5news.com/2019/09/17/man-sues-weapons-manufacturer-m-after-gun-allegedly-discharges-hits-him-leg-chick-fil-a/

I think Sig should offer to settle the lawsuit by offering him a free holster.

[Galbraith]

A lawsuit has been filed against a firearms manufacturer after a Horry County man claims his handgun discharged and the bullet hit him in the leg while at a Grand Strand Chick-fil-A.

https://www.live5news.com/2019/09/17/man-sues-weapons-manufacturer-m-after-gun-allegedly-discharges-hits-him-leg-chick-fil-a/

From the Criminal Complaint:
25. For example, the San Francisco Police Department, which issued Sig Sauer P320s as its primary sidearm, reported 29 accidental discharges between 2005 and 2011.

Um, last I checked the P320 wasn't available until 2014. I'm seeing all kinds of inconsistencies and problems with this document. Unfortunately for Sig, the fact that they made the modification a "voluntary upgrade" instead of a recall made them a target for all kinds of law suits whether real, or greedy ambulance chasers. If this guy was carrying a chambered, striker fired pistol Mexican style with no proper holster to guard the trigger, then he was a Darwin Award waiting to happen.

[JodyH]

A lawsuit has been filed against a firearms manufacturer after a Horry County man claims his handgun discharged and the bullet hit him in the leg while at a Grand Strand Chick-fil-A.

https://www.live5news.com/2019/09/17/man-sues-weapons-manufacturer-m-after-gun-allegedly-discharges-hits-him-leg-chick-fil-a/

At first I thought this dude was going to make some bank because Chick-Fil-A has some damn good hi-def cameras in their restaurants.
Then I saw it happened in the restroom.
Yea...

[John Hearne]

To me this would be even more damning of Sigs QC.
Not only did it slip past QC on initial manufacturing, it also slipped past QC when "upgraded".

I hope for the people carrying Sigs sake this was operator error.

Just to be clear, my reference to tolerance stacking was not a reference to Sig but the early S&W autos.

[Guinnessman]

At first I thought this dude was going to make some bank because Chick-Fil-A has some damn good hi-def cameras in their restaurants.
Then I saw it happened in the restroom.
Yea...

Hopefully the dark web has that video...........😜🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Balisong]

I think Sig should offer to settle the lawsuit by offering him a free holster.

I think Cohen should personally call him and explain that the 320 is the safest gun around because it doesn't need to be dry fired to be field stripped.

[AMC]

From the Criminal Complaint:
25. For example, the San Francisco Police Department, which issued Sig Sauer P320s as its primary sidearm, reported 29 accidental discharges between 2005 and 2011.

Um, last I checked the P320 wasn't available until 2014. I'm seeing all kinds of inconsistencies and problems with this document. Unfortunately for Sig, the fact that they made the modification a "voluntary upgrade" instead of a recall made them a target for all kinds of law suits whether real, or greedy ambulance chasers. If this guy was carrying a chambered, striker fired pistol Mexican style with no proper holster to guard the trigger, then he was a Darwin Award waiting to happen.

This guys lawyer has not done his due diligence. Paragraph 25 is flat out false. No such negligent discharge report exists, and the SFPD has never issued the P320. Might some time in the future, but right now the only issued/authorized weapon is the Sig P226R .40 S&W. The dumb is strong here.....starting to believe the story of a Mexican Carry Kaboom.

[Lester Polfus]

This guys lawyer has not done his due diligence. Paragraph 25 is flat out false. No such negligent discharge report exists, and the SFPD has never issued the P320. Might some time in the future, but right now the only issued/authorized weapon is the Sig P226R .40 S&W. The dumb is strong here.....starting to believe the story of a Mexican Carry Kaboom.

I'm not a lawyer, but if I was, I'm thinking I wouldn't want to call out that particular mistake until/unless it went to trial...

[g4pi09]

Anyone have any updates on this?

[Tokarev]

The latest lawsuit thread reminded me of this older one. Here's one update:

https://www.phillytrib.com/news/local_news/septa-cop-whose-gun-mysteriously-fired-cleared-of-wrongdoing-litigation-against-gunmaker-pending/article_c6d39ae2-af54-5738-b089-b8639032cd8a.html

Anyone have anything further?

[claymore504]

This.
Fully agree on this. I was all in on the P320 and then i watched a video where Ernest L. spoke about this and it made a lot of sense to me. He stated that if a company came out with a 1911 without a manual safety epople would freak out. That is what the P320 has going on. The triger take up (free play) is very minimal.

[Ivantheterrible]

School Resource Officer had his ALS holstered firearm with WML go off when he was in the school and a kid got his finger down in the gap in the holster and triggered the gun.

Although not an SRO, I am an officer carrying around school children occasionally. Believe me, I have looked at my ALS holster and thought of this scenario. I switched out to a non WML holster for that reason.

[HTM]

Looks like another lawsuit in progress NH this time (https://www.unionleader.com/news/courts/nh-mans-lawsuit-claims-sig-sauer-pistol-fired-without-trigger-pull/article_63c8f130-af21-5eb0-b67d-c12943be8493.html).

[JonInWA]

Looks like another lawsuit in progress NH this time (https://www.unionleader.com/news/courts/nh-mans-lawsuit-claims-sig-sauer-pistol-fired-without-trigger-pull/article_63c8f130-af21-5eb0-b67d-c12943be8493.html).

We've had a new thread going on it since earlier in the week, with a link to the suit itself: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?43653-New-2-July-2020-SIG-P320-Lawsuit-and-P320-Concerns

Best, Jon

[HTM]

We've had a new thread going on it since earlier in the week, with a link to the suit itself: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?43653-New-2-July-2020-SIG-P320-Lawsuit-and-P320-Concerns

Best, Jon

My bad. I didn't see that thread. Please forgive :cool: