10.5/11.5" SBRs/AR-15 pistols are okay for the average home defender

[Casual Friday]

This isn't a mockery of the thread Jay Cunningham started yesterday about magwell holds, but it got me thinking about some other things.

A 10.5/11.5" SBR or AR-15 pistol with a red dot and Surefire 6P are okay for the average home defender so if you don't have a 16" carbine with a 1-8 LPVO and M600/Cloud OWL/Modlite you'll probably be just fine. Discuss.

42434

[TGS]

What?

[Casual Friday]

What?

Barrel length for the purpose of a HD carbine. There was a poll in a FB gun group yesterday where a guy asked if he should get a 16" rifle for his only carbine, or go with one of the readily available 10.5/11.5"kits/uppers. Assuming both are of equal quality. The overwhelming majority said 16", but outside of not having to buy a brace or deal with NFA stuff nobody really gave an articulated reason as to why, similar to Jay's thread about the why of magwell holds not being optimal or ideal.

Since pistol braces became a thing, many manufacturers and retailers have reported that sub 16" uppers sell at a rate of 2:1 over 16" uppers. I think I remember someone from PSA saying it's more like 4:1 but I could be remembering it wrong.

Not wanting to spend $100 on a brace or $200 for a tax stamp are valid concerns, but they're personal preference and not really concrete data as to why a 16" rifle is a better choice.

[CESwartz07]

Average home defender should probably just buy a 9mm duty sized pistol.


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[MSparks909]

My preferred AR barrel length is 11.5”

It’s all a compromise. I like handier ARs for HD and travel. I’ve got a Law Folder/SBA3 on my 11.5” BCM and can fold it up and stick it in a backpack if need be. I can also ring B/C steel out to 400 with no issue. Feed it good ammo and a 10.3-11.5” AR is fine for HD use. 10.3” ARs have been stacking bodies overseas for a long time.

[Mike C]

Barrel length for the purpose of a HD carbine. There was a poll in a FB gun group yesterday where a guy asked if he should get a 16" rifle for his only carbine, or go with one of the readily available 10.5/11.5"kits/uppers. Assuming both are of equal quality. The overwhelming majority said 16", but outside of not having to buy a brace or deal with NFA stuff nobody really gave an articulated reason as to why, similar to Jay's thread about the why of magwell holds not being optimal or ideal.

Since pistol braces became a thing, many manufacturers and retailers have reported that sub 16" uppers sell at a rate of 2:1 over 16" uppers. I think I remember someone from PSA saying it's more like 4:1 but I could be remembering it wrong.

Not wanting to spend $100 on a brace or $200 for a tax stamp are valid concerns, but they're personal preference and not really concrete data as to why a 16" rifle is a better choice.

As I see it outside of running a suppressor or getting in and out of vehicles or confined spaces all the time I see zero reason to run a SBR or pistol (unless travel outside home state is a factor). I've cleared more buildings and rooms than I can count with a 14.5" and could run a 16" just the same, I learned to clear rooms with an M16 and I know I'm not the only one. We can skip the 10.5" altogether because they are often ammo sensitive and require a fair amount more of preventative maintenance and replacement parts intervals. 11.5's less so but you will still need more maintenance, (thought this won't be a factor for most I always look at the logistical/maintenance factors). Once you drop down to a 10.5/11.5" the pressure and noise inside a room or building is absolutely deafening so no way I'd run one without a suppressor which negates the advantage of a shorter barrel unless you're just looking to minimize hearing damage to yourself or others or need to increase the ability to communicate with others. Cost is obviously the additional factor as you mentioned, cost for SBR, cost for can or whatever you want to call them plus it's stamp and wait time. The juice just isn't worth the squeeze unless you regularly shoot somewhere that requires suppressors for shooting on Sundays for example, (like a club near me) or points made above. Just my .02 but that's how I see it. I like all the stuff I have but if I could go back and talk myself out of it I would have just bought 2-3 16" Colt trooper models or the like from BCM and called it done. Suppressors are fun but outside of hunting and fun I just don't see the real advantage at least for me, with that said a 9" 300 Blackout with a suppressor on it is stupid fun and sexy but absolutely not practical in any way no matter how much I wanted it to be.

ETA: There is something to be said about the handling of an SBR as stated above but I really don't feel there is a tremendous amount of difference between my 11.5 Colt vs the 14.5 or 16" variants I have especially with the light weight rails available. Only real difference for me might be needing to adjust choke/tuck the gun when not pieing off a corner. Transitions aren't terribly different between targets whether spitting difference or longer ranges so long as there isn't a ton of crap hanging off the end of the gun.

[Tensaw]

Right or wrong, I just put together an 8.5” barreled .300 BO pistol expressly for the wife to use in HD. The setting is a *very* rural / isolated abode (closest neighbor is a ways through the woods - no viz); LE many minutes away at best; no cell signal, but a landline is present; and a large house situated on a large chunk of property. There will be times when she is there alone for extended periods. She is on the small side and not winning any contests when it comes to physical strength. I need to step it off, but there is easily a 20 yard shot inside the residence and potentially one twice that. The single stack 9mm she has relied on to this point was simply not very confidence-inspiring with all these factors stacking up.

Went .300BO because of the reliability at the 8.5” barrel length. Went 8.5” trying to put together the lightest weight, quickest handling package that I could.

This package gives her the ability to do significant damage with increased stand-off distance as compared to the pistol; and with compative ease. Overpenetration is a largely a non-issue. She needed something that she could physically handle and get good hits - probably from a barricaded situation. The short AR pistol seems like a pretty good answer to that.

All that said, I now think it prudent to attach a suppressor to the pistol because the concussion from the 8.5” barrel would be quite disconcerting to her inside say, a bedroom. I don’t want her to hesitate or flinch because of the anticipated concussion. One thing begets another...

[Darth_Uno]

Weight's not an issue. You're not humping it around all day. For a home defender, you're just grabbing it out of your closet or wherever.

Speed's not an issue. 3-gunners are rocking 18+" AR's just fine.

And your average home defender isn't doing the NFA paperwork for a suppressor. If you can get a suppressor, 11.5/12.5 is the way to go. If you can't, like in IL, I'm not seeing much of a viable benefit to go under 14.5 besides looking fly.

I know all our gun-fu is based on less-than-probable events to start with. But you can really overthink weight, handling, etc. I own 16's and 12.5's. My HD gun is a 14.5 pinned FH lightweight barrel BCM, with MRO. It's my mostest favoritest AR.

[Casual Friday]

My preferred AR barrel length is 11.5”

It’s all a compromise. I like handier ARs for HD and travel. I’ve got a Law Folder/SBA3 on my 11.5” BCM and can fold it up and stick it in a backpack if need be. I can also ring B/C steel out to 400 with no issue. Feed it good ammo and a 10.3-11.5” AR is fine for HD use. 10.3” ARs have been stacking bodies overseas for a long time.

The ability to fold and fit into a normal sized backpack instead of those oblong purpose built rifle backpacks are one of the reasons I find an 11.5" to be the most practical. When I still kept my office space in town, I could hit the outdoor range on the way to work and not have to take my rifle/pistol back home before heading into work. It fit right into my Vertx Gamut Plus that I carried in and out of the office building everyday with my laptop in it and the other building tenants were none the wiser.


Weight's not an issue. You're not humping it around all day. For a home defender, you're just grabbing it out of your closet or wherever.

Speed's not an issue. 3-gunners are rocking 18+" AR's just fine.

And your average home defender isn't doing the NFA paperwork for a suppressor. If you can get a suppressor, 11.5/12.5 is the way to go. If you can't, like in IL, I'm not seeing much of a viable benefit to go under 14.5 besides looking fly.

I know all our gun-fu is based on less-than-probable events to start with. But you can really overthink weight, handling, etc. I own 16's and 12.5's. My HD gun is a 14.5 pinned FH lightweight barrel BCM, with MRO. It's my mostest favoritest AR.

Weight may or may not be an issue. I routinely take day hikes with one of my 11.5" guns slung over my shoulder, if I were a one carbine kinda guy having it be lightweight would be important. I see your point though, my HD 6933 is sporting a FSB and quad rail and is a pig compared to my other 11.5" with a 10" MCMR rail and a BCM ELW profile barrel.

I have 16" guns as well. They mostly gather dust as I find that an 11.5" does everything I need a carbine to do with the advantage of being easier to transport.

[Darth_Uno]

Weight may or may not be an issue. I routinely take day hikes with one of my 11.5" guns slung over my shoulder, if I were a one carbine kinda guy having it be lightweight would be important. I see your point though, my HD 6933 is sporting a FSB and quad rail and is a pig compared to my other 11.5" with a 10" MCMR rail and a BCM ELW profile barrel.

I have 16" guns as well. They mostly gather dust as I find that an 11.5" does everything I need a carbine to do with the advantage of being easier to transport.

The question was for home defense. I get your point though. The SBA3 isn't my favorite stock, er I mean 'brace', but if I had to hustle a weapon around for hours I'd go with my pistol build just because it's lighter. For something you might only (or never) use for a couple minutes, weight's not as much of a concern. For that matter nobody's saying a basic AK isn't good for HD, and those aren't exactly light either.

Joe Schmuckatelli can have a 16" Govt profile barrel, carbine gas, ACOG, and use a magwell grip and be just fine. I could probably debate with him why those aren't the best options...but I won't unless he asks.

[GJM]

Right or wrong, I just put together an 8.5” barreled .300 BO pistol expressly for the wife to use in HD. The setting is a *very* rural / isolated abode (closest neighbor is a ways through the woods - no viz); LE many minutes away at best; no cell signal, but a landline is present; and a large house situated on a large chunk of property. There will be times when she is there alone for extended periods. She is on the small side and not winning any contests when it comes to physical strength. I need to step it off, but there is easily a 20 yard shot inside the residence and potentially one twice that. The single stack 9mm she has relied on to this point was simply not very confidence-inspiring with all these factors stacking up.

Went .300BO because of the reliability at the 8.5” barrel length. Went 8.5” trying to put together the lightest weight, quickest handling package that I could.

This package gives her the ability to do significant damage with increased stand-off distance as compared to the pistol; and with compative ease. Overpenetration is a largely a non-issue. She needed something that she could physically handle and get good hits - probably from a barricaded situation. The short AR pistol seems like a pretty good answer to that.

All that said, I now think it prudent to attach a suppressor to the pistol because the concussion from the 8.5” barrel would be quite disconcerting to her inside say, a bedroom. I don’t want her to hesitate or flinch because of the anticipated concussion. One thing begets another...

Anyone have decibel numbers — my sense is the 8.5 300 BO with supersonic ammo is about the same noise level as a 16 5.56 AR?

[El Cid]

I won’t go shorter than an 11.5” bbl on a 5.56 rifle for reliability and longevity reasons. For HD anything from 11.5 to 16 will be just fine. Better IMO to focus on quality than bbl length. Avoid the PSA deal of the day rifles/pistols as an example.

[breakingtime91]

I like 14.5 as the shortest I'll go in 556. Ammo has come a long way but 14.5 and shot placement seems to do wonders. Saw shorter guns/impacts and was not impressed.

Also just because you can hit at certain distances, doesn't mean you will be happy with the result. 556 works better on living stuff out of longer barrels, just the way it goes.

[El Cid]

I like 14.5 as the shortest I'll go in 556. Ammo has come a long way but 14.5 and shot placement seems to do wonders. Saw shorter guns/impacts and was not impressed.

Also just because you can hit at certain distances, doesn't mean you will be happy with the result. 556 works better on living stuff out of longer barrels, just the way it goes.

Longer has its advantages to be sure. But I wonder what kind of ammo you saw being used in the shorties? Was it FMJ OCONUS? I ask because plenty of domestic tactical teams use a trophy bonded bear claw type of bullet out of 11.5’s with stellar results. I’ve heard the ammo referee to as a “death ray.”

[breakingtime91]

Longer has its advantages to be sure. But I wonder what kind of ammo you saw being used in the shorties? Was it FMJ OCONUS? I ask because plenty of domestic tactical teams use a trophy bonded bear claw type of bullet out of 11.5’s with stellar results. I’ve heard the ammo referee to as a “death ray.”

Mostly green tip. I am sure there are good loads that work well in urban environments. All of it is going to be better than pistol. Mission drives gear but I have heard many guys who worked with short guns (10.3-12) that said its a 100 meter and in gun. Which I will fully admit is fine for most civilian or law enforcement roles. I just don't see the advantage when compared to a 14.5 gun that offers better ballistics.

[Duelist]

I hate being around SBR 5.56 rifles when they are being fired. Even with doubled up earpro, it is no bueno.

My three uppers are a 16” 5.56 lightweight with an A2 upper and a light mounted on a magpull handguard, a 16” 6.8 SPCII with a carbon fiber float tube and a 2-7 variable - that’s primarily a short, light hunting rig - and last but not least, a 20” flat top 5.56 upper with a 4-14 FFP mil dot. Yes, that last one is a PSA. I just wanted it and it was cheap, and yes, it took a little tweaking and break-in. I wanted it, i don’t need a better reason. The other two are builds on quality parts - the 6.8 can be a PITA, depending on ammo. Very fickle. More fickle than a .22. With ammo it likes, it is reliable, accurate, and hard-hitting.

I enjoy shooting the 20” most. By a lot. It’s convinced me that I need a better 20” upper eventually by reminding me about all the things I like about them, so it was worth the money and time. If I’m carrying one, I’d rather it be either of the 16”. The lightweight 16” 5.56 will break down and fit in a large Alice pack. Not super accessible on the trail, but quite invisible.

[JRB]

After firing a 7in 5.56 AR pistol next to my 11.5in 5.56 build, I won't ever go shorter than 11.5.
There are lots of good reasons to advocate a 14.5in.

Personally, since this is America, I advocate buying one of each.

[Josh Runkle]

I wouldn’t use a 10.5 or 11.5 gun in a hallway without a suppressor, ever. The concussion is horrific.

There are too many legal challenges to using the pistol braces in a shooting (I think the prosecution could argue that it is a de facto buttstock if intended to be shouldered by the end-user, despite how it is regulated when sold by BATFE).

There are too many legal challenges regarding access when using title II weapons (how was it stored, etc.).

The only way any AR makes sense to me is if it is the gun you shoot most often.


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[nalesq]

I used to think getting involved in a self defense shooting with a braced AR pistol might look especially bad to an anti-gun prosecutor/jury, but few on the left seemed to get worked up over the fact that the recent Dayton mass murderer used such a weapon. They only cared that it was an “assault weapon,” and using a brace to get around the SBR thing was virtually irrelevant. If he had used a 20-inch AR, it would have been regarded no differently.


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[TGS]

Mostly green tip.

Well, there's the problem.

I'd rather take an SBR with TBBC than a 14.5" with green tip any day.

[MD7305]

P-F timing is always uncanny, I've been mulling this over for weeks as I plan to configure some type of HD setup. I've been stuck on barrel length and weighing the pros/cons of an 11.5" pistol build or a 16” carbine. Admittedly I'm 'trying' to keep it cheap-er, like PSA or MP Sport II cheap, but at those price points trusting a 'cheap' 11.5" upper concerns me. I've had a few years experience with an MP Sport II with stellar performance so I'm leaning that direction.

[Mike C]

P-F timing is always uncanny, I've been mulling this over for weeks as I plan to configure some type of HD setup. I've been stuck on barrel length and weighing the pros/cons of an 11.5" pistol build or a 16” carbine. Admittedly I'm 'trying' to keep it cheap-er, like PSA or MP Sport II cheap, but at those price points trusting a 'cheap' 11.5" upper concerns me. I've had a few years experience with an MP Sport II with stellar performance so I'm leaning that direction.

Don't forget HCM's post. The Geissele is really good for the money no doubt.

[MD7305]

Yes, indeed, thanks. Totally forgot about the Super Duty LE.

[Josh Runkle]

I used to think getting involved in a self defense shooting with a braced AR pistol might look especially bad to an anti-gun prosecutor/jury, but few on the left seemed to get worked up over the fact that the recent Dayton mass murderer used such a weapon. They only cared that it was an “assault weapon,” and using a brace to get around the SBR thing was virtually irrelevant. If he had used a 20-inch AR, it would have been regarded no differently.


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There’s a very different reason that no one on the left is talking about the Dayton shooter.


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[Casual Friday]

I wouldn’t use a 10.5 or 11.5 gun in a hallway without a suppressor, ever. The concussion is horrific.

There are too many legal challenges to using the pistol braces in a shooting (I think the prosecution could argue that it is a de facto buttstock if intended to be shouldered by the end-user, despite how it is regulated when sold by BATFE).

There are too many legal challenges regarding access when using title II weapons (how was it stored, etc.).

The only way any AR makes sense to me is if it is the gun you shoot most often.


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Sorry but this is just fear mongering for the sake of fear mongering. Pistol braces are legal to shoulder and the latest ATF letter that came out in June or July provided some clarification on it for anyone that could read it and not lose their shit over "ERMAGHERD THERE CHANGING THE WAY YOU MEASURE AN AR PISTOL!!!".

42497

[Josh Runkle]

Sorry but this is just fear mongering for the sake of fear mongering. Pistol braces are legal to shoulder and the latest ATF letter that came out in June or July provided some clarification on it for anyone that could read it and not lose their shit over "ERMAGHERD THERE CHANGING THE WAY YOU MEASURE AN AR PISTOL!!!".

42497

My statement and your batfe letter don’t seem to cover the same subject matter.

Also, the BATFE offers opinions on the law. That is not the same thing as an existing ruling in a court case.


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[Casual Friday]

My statement and your batfe letter don’t seem to cover the same subject matter.

Also, the BATFE offers opinions on the law. That is not the same thing as an existing ruling in a court case.


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"A stabilizing brace is not an element of either a statutory or regulatory definition of a firearm"

[Poconnor]

Are AR-pistols ok for the average home defender? Define average. My definition would be somebody that has very little to no training, does not shoot enough for skill development, has little or no knowledge of tactics or the law and finally thinks all ARs are the same and the cheapest is good enough.

So I say No to AR PISTOLS FOR HOME DEFENSE for the average user. the average home owner would be better off gathering the family in a safe room and staying there so the short barrel has no advantage.

I have two 16” ARs I trust for defense. My go to is my 870 and my carry gun. For defense why sacrifice the reliability and ballistics of the 16”. I have searched many building and houses with a 16” AR and an 18” 870.
I have one BCM pistol with a brace; it has a T-1 and a surefire X300 and a sling. It is my version of a hard use, reliable 11.5” 5.56 pistol. I have not shot in enough for home defense yet. But so far it runs great. I also have two Palmetto Arms AR pistols as range toys. I bought them because they were cheap. One is a 10.5” upper that I will be selling shortly. The other is an 11.5”. Once I sell the 10.5 I will get a .300BO upper to play with. I do think the short barrels look cooler and feel cooler but I don’t have enough 5.56 ammo for my ARs much less enough to match a load to my 11.5 upper. I wish I had the money to buy a pallet of 5.56 loaded with either a Nosler partitions or trophy bonded bear claws

[Josh Runkle]

"A stabilizing brace is not an element of either a statutory or regulatory definition of a firearm"

And my original quote was...”I think the prosecution could argue that it is a de facto buttstock if intended to be shouldered by the end-user, despite how it is regulated when sold by BATFE”

Your letter simply explains how it is regulated by BATFE when manufactured and sold, but doesn’t address my concern as originally expressed, which is: end-user intent.

A rubber band when sold is not a machine gun. I’m sure that the BATFE could easily produce a letter saying that the ownership of “a rubber band and a firearm” does not constitute the ownership of a machine gun. That, however, does not address end-user intent, and does not mean that improper usage based on end-user intent contrary to original intent when manufactured cannot be prosecuted.


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[Casual Friday]

Are AR-pistols ok for the average home defender? Define average. My definition would be somebody that has very little to no training, does not shoot enough for skill development, has little or no knowledge of tactics or the law and finally thinks all ARs are the same and the cheapest is good enough.

So I say No to AR PISTOLS FOR HOME DEFENSE for the average user. the average home owner would be better off gathering the family in a safe room and staying there so the short barrel has no advantage.

I have two 16” ARs I trust for defense. My go to is my 870 and my carry gun. For defense why sacrifice the reliability and ballistics of the 16”. I have searched many building and houses with a 16” AR and an 18” 870.
I have one BCM pistol with a brace; it has a T-1 and a surefire X300 and a sling. It is my version of a hard use, reliable 11.5” 5.56 pistol. I have not shot in enough for home defense yet. But so far it runs great. I also have two Palmetto Arms AR pistols as range toys. I bought them because they were cheap. One is a 10.5” upper that I will be selling shortly. The other is an 11.5”. Once I sell the 10.5 I will get a .300BO upper to play with. I do think the short barrels look cooler and feel cooler but I don’t have enough 5.56 ammo for my ARs much less enough to match a load to my 11.5 upper. I wish I had the money to buy a pallet of 5.56 loaded with either a Nosler partitions or trophy bonded bear claws

I'm not interested in how you define average. I'm looking for hard data. So far you provided feelings and some inaccurate info like shorter barrels being less reliable. That just isn't the case, but your 870 and carry gun will probably be fine too.

[Casual Friday]

And my original quote was...”I think the prosecution could argue that it is a de facto buttstock if intended to be shouldered by the end-user, despite how it is regulated when sold by BATFE”

Your letter simply explains how it is regulated by BATFE when manufactured and sold, but doesn’t address my concern as originally expressed, which is: end-user intent.

A rubber band when sold is not a machine gun. I’m sure that the BATFE could easily produce a letter saying that the ownership of “a rubber band and a firearm” does not constitute the ownership of a machine gun. That, however, does not address end-user intent, and does not mean that improper usage based on end-user intent contrary to original intent when manufactured cannot be prosecuted.


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They're legal to buy, own, shoulder and use. I'm not sure how much more legal you need them to be.

What other legal activities do you avoid because of a Chicken Little the sky is falling type fear?

[Poconnor]

The only first hand experience I have with my 11.5 is a few thousand rounds through my BCM. It’s reliable. It’s loud compared to my 16” rifles but they are loud too. I shot next to a swat cop during a Pat Rogers carbine class. I don’t remember any details of his 11.5 beyond the blast was obnoxious. A friend has a 11.5 SBR. His only complaint is accelerated wear. When I went through the colt M16 armorer course; the Instructor was Ken Elmore from Specialized Armament. IIRC he said the 11.5 could be reliable if the gas port size , ammo and buffer weight were working together. BCM did have an explanation of the benefits of the increased dwell time of the 11.5 over the 10.5 on its website.
In the army I used what was issued and I did not have any choice. In the police Dept. I fought for years to get rifles for patrol. We did not have the ammo budget to experiment with new equipment. Ammo was purchased off of state bid and due to the liability and the stakes we never had the desire to be beta testers. I had a chief tell me once if the state police didn’t issue it we didn’t need it. My old Dept is going to Glocks because of the FBI purchase

[Darth_Uno]

The only first hand experience I have with my 11.5 is a few thousand rounds through my BCM. It’s reliable. It’s loud compared to my 16” rifles but they are loud too. I shot next to a swat cop during a Pat Rogers carbine class. I don’t remember any details of his 11.5 beyond the blast was obnoxious.

Did he have a brake/comp? I've never seen much of a difference with an A2 or other "normal" flash hider. If it's comped you can tell the difference between 11.5 and 14.5.

[Blades]

So for defensive uses and 3 Gun use, I gather from reading this thread I should get a 16" barrel for my needs/wants?

[RevolverRob]

And my original quote was...”I think the prosecution could argue that it is a de facto buttstock if intended to be shouldered by the end-user, despite how it is regulated when sold by BATFE”

Your letter simply explains how it is regulated by BATFE when manufactured and sold, but doesn’t address my concern as originally expressed, which is: end-user intent.

A rubber band when sold is not a machine gun. I’m sure that the BATFE could easily produce a letter saying that the ownership of “a rubber band and a firearm” does not constitute the ownership of a machine gun. That, however, does not address end-user intent, and does not mean that improper usage based on end-user intent contrary to original intent when manufactured cannot be prosecuted.


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The ATF has held - since the first brace letter that incidental contact with the shoulder does not constitute a design change. You grabbed your braced AR-pistol, you were preparing to strap it to your arm with the badguy broke in. In your haste you simply brought the gun up and fired it, in the process the brace touches your shoulder. That’s perfectly legal, ASSuming you were justified in firing the gun.

To answer the question - yes if either of the options is legal (pistol and/or SBR) then there aren’t a ton of compelling reasons not to, except the concussion of firing.

For me, an AR pistol has as many uses outside the home as inside. By virtue of being something that you can, literally, tote, under a concealed weapons permit in most states.

In Illinois, the various AR/AK/MP5 etc pistols have a distinct advantage. There is state level pre-emption on all handguns and handgun accessories. So even if your local jurisdiction wants to ban “assault weapons” they cannot ban the pistols. This is one reason why Cook County and Chicago’s AWBs are currently unenforceable (and thus not being enforced).

[Darth_Uno]

So for defensive uses and 3 Gun use, I gather from reading this thread I should get a 16" barrel for my needs/wants?

There are way too many factors for this to be a yes/no answer. But 16” is the best balance of all those factors.

[Blades]

There are way too many factors for this to be a yes/no answer. But 16” is the best balance of all those factors.


Understood. Thank you.

[BK14]

I guess my issue with the concept of this thread and the magwell grip thread, is that just because something could work, doesn’t mean it’s what should be done. In civilian self defense shootings, LE shootings, and I’m sure in military operations, a lot of times the good guy wins, but not because what was done or used was ideal. Just because someone won the gunfight, it doesn’t mean that a doctrine should be built around that one instance and accepted as a good tactic.

I’m sure a 10.5/11.5 would be just fine for a civilian home defense scenario. But most likely so would the 7.5” PSA, the 20” M16A2 “clone”, the M1 garand, a double barrel shotgun as Mr. Biden so thoughtfully recommenced, Taurus PT11-whatever, or your Kel-tec P3AT. Who really cares about what is “okay”?

Magwell grip can work. You can shoot targets, you can transition targets, you can do whatever. But is that ideal? Nope. You control a gun better grabbing it from further out if your goal is to run the gun hard.

So, I don’t really care if it’s “okay” I’d rather we discuss what’s ideal. Not so we can be snobs and look down on those who use lesser equipment or inferior tactics, but so we can grow the knowledge base.

That rant said:

If I’m doing something in a house for searching/offensive stuff, I want a shorter gun like an 11.5. It’s easier to maneuver, lighter, and can be moved in ways a longer gun can’t.

For home defense, since I can’t decide what will happen (what if the wife/kids I don’t have yet are in a different room and I have to go to them) I’d prefer a gun optimized for various scenarios, not just hunkering down.

That said, a 16” gun would probably work almost equally well, with the advantage of better velocity, softer felt recoil, and the blast being further from the shooter.


Whatever barrel length you choose for an AR if you know how to manipulate the gun would probably be fine. Shorter barrels are louder, and have more FELT recoil generally. The ballistics in home-distance gunfights will probably be minimally different, and the noise in the moment hopefully won’t be the make or break matter.

My emphasis for home defense would be more on the muzzle device assuming a quality gun/light/optic. An A2 on an 11.5 is still pretty blasty, but not nearly as bad as a even a mild comp like the BCM comp. if going with a shorter gun, consider taking whatever setup you choose to an indoor range to feel the blast. I think the BRT comp thing would be a good option for this usage.

As the barrel gets longer, the muzzle device gets less critical, but still plays a big role indoors. The open port comp outdoors on your 16” may be okay, but in a room the concussion has nowhere to go. A friend didn’t have his earpro on when I took a shot with my 14.5” BCM comp gun, and his ears rang for days. 16” barrel and VG6 brake, took a shot with no ear pro, my ears rang for days. Comps are loud. Worse so inside.

To conclude. While I’d rather we discuss what’s “ideal” not “okay” I guess I’ve come full circle in my response, to say that probably either would work just fine, but the muzzle device is an important part, and my preference is strongly towards an 11.5/12.5.

[Casual Friday]

I’m sure a 10.5/11.5 would be just fine for a civilian home defense scenario. But most likely so would the 7.5” PSA, the 20” M16A2 “clone”, the M1 garand, a double barrel shotgun as Mr. Biden so thoughtfully recommenced, Taurus PT11-whatever, or your Kel-tec P3AT. Who really cares about what is “okay”?


Except ballistics out of 7.5" 5.56 barrels is terrible, a 20" gun would work in some homes/hallways, but maybe not others, a Garand is .30-06 and a terrible choice for HD, a double barrel Biden special would only be useful against one or maybe two attackers, and Taurus PT11s and Keltecs are known to be shitty.


Magwell grip can work. You can shoot targets, you can transition targets, you can do whatever. But is that ideal? Nope. You control a gun better grabbing it from further out if your goal is to run the gun hard.

So, I don’t really care if it’s “okay” I’d rather we discuss what’s ideal. Not so we can be snobs and look down on those who use lesser equipment or inferior tactics, but so we can grow the knowledge base.

I'm not a big fan of magwell hold and don't use it unless shooting from a barricade or resting the handguard on something. If you'd rather discuss what's ideal because you don't feel these topics are worthy of your time, feel free to start those threads.


That rant said:

If I’m doing something in a house for searching/offensive stuff, I want a shorter gun like an 11.5. It’s easier to maneuver, lighter, and can be moved in ways a longer gun can’t.

For home defense, since I can’t decide what will happen (what if the wife/kids I don’t have yet are in a different room and I have to go to them) I’d prefer a gun optimized for various scenarios, not just hunkering down.

That said, a 16” gun would probably work almost equally well, with the advantage of better velocity, softer felt recoil, and the blast being further from the shooter.


The velocity difference between 11.5" and 16" will likely never make a difference in a home defense shooting. I disagree with the softer shooting part too, at least in any measurable way that would make or break a defensive shooting. My 6933 and BCM 11.5" uppers with Springco springs and H2 buffers track very similar to my 16" guns, but they also have proper size gas ports. If you're rocking a PSA 10.5" with a gaping gas port, cheap spring and carbine buffer, yeah the difference will be greater.


Whatever barrel length you choose for an AR if you know how to manipulate the gun would probably be fine. Shorter barrels are louder, and have more FELT recoil generally. The ballistics in home-distance gunfights will probably be minimally different, and the noise in the moment hopefully won’t be the make or break matter.

My emphasis for home defense would be more on the muzzle device assuming a quality gun/light/optic. An A2 on an 11.5 is still pretty blasty, but not nearly as bad as a even a mild comp like the BCM comp. if going with a shorter gun, consider taking whatever setup you choose to an indoor range to feel the blast. I think the BRT comp thing would be a good option for this usage.

As the barrel gets longer, the muzzle device gets less critical, but still plays a big role indoors. The open port comp outdoors on your 16” may be okay, but in a room the concussion has nowhere to go. A friend didn’t have his earpro on when I took a shot with my 14.5” BCM comp gun, and his ears rang for days. 16” barrel and VG6 brake, took a shot with no ear pro, my ears rang for days. Comps are loud. Worse so inside.

I run either an A2 or BRT Covert Comp on mine, the only time I'm gonna run a brake on a 5.56 gun is for a suppressor mount, which my BCM will have once my YHM Turbo is out of jail in a year.


To conclude. While I’d rather we discuss what’s “ideal” not “okay” I guess I’ve come full circle in my response, to say that probably either would work just fine, but the muzzle device is an important part, and my preference is strongly towards an 11.5/12.5.

This thread was about having a discussion and making you think, not to convince anyone that they should switch to a shorter gun, so I'd say it was a success.

[BK14]

Except ballistics out of 7.5" 5.56 barrels is terrible, a 20" gun would work in some homes/hallways, but maybe not others, a Garand is .30-06 and a terrible choice for HD, a double barrel Biden special would only be useful against one or maybe two attackers, and Taurus PT11s and Keltecs are known to be shitty.



I'm not a big fan of magwell hold and don't use it unless shooting from a barricade or resting the handguard on something. If you'd rather discuss what's ideal because you don't feel these topics are worthy of your time, feel free to start those threads.



The velocity difference between 11.5" and 16" will likely never make a difference in a home defense shooting. I disagree with the softer shooting part too, at least in any measurable way that would make or break a defensive shooting. My 6933 and BCM 11.5" uppers with Springco springs and H2 buffers track very similar to my 16" guns, but they also have proper size gas ports. If you're rocking a PSA 10.5" with a gaping gas port, cheap spring and carbine buffer, yeah the difference will be greater.



I run either an A2 or BRT Covert Comp on mine, the only time I'm gonna run a brake on a 5.56 gun is for a suppressor mount, which my BCM will have once my YHM Turbo is out of jail in a year.



This thread was about having a discussion and making you think, not to convince anyone that they should switch to a shorter gun, so I'd say it was a success.


I 100% agree all those guns are less than ideal. If I had options, I’d never use the above list, which was my point. They’re not ideal, but most likely for the “average” home defense use they’d work. It’s probably just me, I’m just having a hard time connecting the dots with why you’d want to discuss what’s okay for an average home defense scenario instead of what’s ideal.

I probably could have left out the first half of my post, and just kept the confusion to myself. My bad.

The only short barrels I’ve shot were properly gassed 10.3/11.5 Daniels, and my 11.5 BCM also with a sprinco blue and H2 buffer. The longer guns include a properly gassed 14.5 BCM with H2 buffer, a Faxon 16” middy which feels a bit over gassed, and even a PSA piece of crap 16” middy. Whether I’m running a staged course of fire, a bill drill, etc. I can feel and see my groups open up between the shorter guns vs longer guns when I’m running the trigger at similar splits.

Obviously your experience may be totally different, but when I’ve put shorter vs longer guns on the clock, I can control longer ones better.

[Jay Cunningham]

44341

This is my HD carbine.

[MistWolf]

I 100% agree all those guns are less than ideal. If I had options, I’d never use the above list, which was my point. They’re not ideal, but most likely for the “average” home defense use they’d work. It’s probably just me, I’m just having a hard time connecting the dots with why you’d want to discuss what’s okay for an average home defense scenario instead of what’s ideal.

I probably could have left out the first half of my post, and just kept the confusion to myself. My bad.
No need to apologize. You brought up some good points pertinent to the discussion, albeit with a bit of hyperbole. There's a lot of ground between "what's ok" or "you can make it work" and "ideal". An M1 Garand for use at close quarters falls squarely in the "you can make it work" with the "if you have to" addendum attached. A 20 inch AR is "what's ok" and is a couple of Zip codes closer to "ideal" than the Garand.

However, things get a little fuzzier comparing a 16/14.5 inch AR to an 11.5/10.5 inch. Both are closer to ideal than a 20 incher. The shorties are closer to ideal than you give it credit and I would argue that it is just as ideal as the 16/14.5- more so (for my uses) when using a suppressor. Shorties are shorter unsuppressed (with more muzzle blast) and about the same length muffled and significantly quieter. Shorties, with their recent boom in popularity, have become much more refined than they were before. With that refinement comes good reliability and much improved durability. Even the 10.5 now has boring reliability. I've put a lot of rounds through my shorties in the years I've owned them. With the exception of being harder on extractor springs, they've been as trouble free as my longer ARs.


The only short barrels I’ve shot were properly gassed 10.3/11.5 Daniels, and my 11.5 BCM also with a sprinco blue and H2 buffer. The longer guns include a properly gassed 14.5 BCM with H2 buffer, a Faxon 16” middy which feels a bit over gassed, and even a PSA piece of crap 16” middy. Whether I’m running a staged course of fire, a bill drill, etc. I can feel and see my groups open up between the shorter guns vs longer guns when I’m running the trigger at similar splits.

Obviously your experience may be totally different, but when I’ve put shorter vs longer guns on the clock, I can control longer ones better.
That may not be due to sharper recoil. Recoil with my shorties is no sharper than my 14.5 Colt SOCOM because they have proper gas porting, H2 buffers and good recoil springs. However, longer barrels smooth out the swing. The longer barrel usually has more moment (more leverage), slowing down directional changes. This means your muzzle travels less during recoil, decreasing shot dispersion and allows you to get back on target quicker.

All of this does not mean I argue against the longer ARs. It means I'm arguing for the shorties. I think shorties are as viable an option as the 14.5/16 inch ARs. More so for the average under achiever home owner than a Garand or double barreled shotgun, if you'll forgive the hyperbole:cool:

[Casual Friday]

44341

This is my HD carbine.

Keymod, 20 rd mag, and your stock isn't even all the way out. How dare you.

[MistWolf]

Keymod, 20 rd mag, and your stock isn't even all the way out. How dare you.
Did you see where Jay has his front sight?!?

[Clusterfrack]

Did you see where Jay has his front sight?!?

Yes, and coincidentally that’s where I have mine as well.

[Casual Friday]

Did you see where Jay has his front sight?!?

I have my front sight behind the pressure switch as well.

Light activation and hand placement>front sight location

[Casual Friday]

I have my front sight behind the pressure switch as well.

Light activation and hand placement>front sight location

Another reason is I use a 30mm Aimpoint Pro. With a c clamp grip and my thumb on top of the pressure switch, I can see my big fat thumb knuckle through the optic if the front sight is in front of the pressure switch. It's not like that really obscures anything, but I prefer to just see the dot and the front sight.

[Clusterfrack]

My HD setup, 11.5” BCM lightweight fluted.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191103/64a9d0e8fa5ad4011a64225ae8fa3431.jpg

[BK14]

No need to apologize. You brought up some good points pertinent to the discussion, albeit with a bit of hyperbole. There's a lot of ground between "what's ok" or "you can make it work" and "ideal". An M1 Garand for use at close quarters falls squarely in the "you can make it work" with the "if you have to" addendum attached. A 20 inch AR is "what's ok" and is a couple of Zip codes closer to "ideal" than the Garand.

However, things get a little fuzzier comparing a 16/14.5 inch AR to an 11.5/10.5 inch. Both are closer to ideal than a 20 incher. The shorties are closer to ideal than you give it credit and I would argue that it is just as ideal as the 16/14.5- more so (for my uses) when using a suppressor. Shorties are shorter unsuppressed (with more muzzle blast) and about the same length muffled and significantly quieter. Shorties, with their recent boom in popularity, have become much more refined than they were before. With that refinement comes good reliability and much improved durability. Even the 10.5 now has boring reliability. I've put a lot of rounds through my shorties in the years I've owned them. With the exception of being harder on extractor springs, they've been as trouble free as my longer ARs.


That may not be due to sharper recoil. Recoil with my shorties is no sharper than my 14.5 Colt SOCOM because they have proper gas porting, H2 buffers and good recoil springs. However, longer barrels smooth out the swing. The longer barrel usually has more moment (more leverage), slowing down directional changes. This means your muzzle travels less during recoil, decreasing shot dispersion and allows you to get back on target quicker.

All of this does not mean I argue against the longer ARs. It means I'm arguing for the shorties. I think shorties are as viable an option as the 14.5/16 inch ARs. More so for the average under achiever home owner than a Garand or double barreled shotgun, if you'll forgive the hyperbole:cool:



For the record, my current patrol rifle is the previously mentioned 11.5, but I’m switching over to my 14.5. Not because of any issues with the 11.5, but because I want to make the 11.5 more specialized than i prefer my patrol rifles. I have no problem with shorties, I think they’re great, I think 14.5/16” guns are great too.

I’ve been trying to figure out what it is about the recoil impulse that’s different for me between a shorty and a 14.5/16” middie but I can’t articulate it yet. Other guys I work with have the same opinion, but it’s hard to articulate.

Either way, I guess now that I’m on a full nights sleep, I’ll say that an 11.5” AR pistol is okay for the average home defense user. Maybe even ideal.

[Jay Cunningham]

Keymod, 20 rd mag, and your stock isn't even all the way out. How dare you.

MLOK is superior to KeyMod.

But not enough for me to mess with my carbine.

[Casual Friday]

MLOK is superior to KeyMod.

But not enough for me to mess with my carbine.

I was just busting your chops over things the internet doesn't like.

[Casual Friday]

Please forgive the poor cord management and the brace. My Cloud Defensive LCS will be here Wednesday and I've been laid up for a couple weeks and haven't been able to efile the Form 1 for the lower. I have a YHM Turbo in NFA jail.

44389

[Jay Cunningham]

I was just busting your chops over things the internet doesn't like.

I know.

But there are autists who will take it seriously.

[Casual Friday]

I know.

But there are autists who will take it seriously.

Speaking of not changing a setup just because it isn't the new hotness.
44390

[JRB]

Speaking of not changing a setup just because it isn't the new hotness.
44390

....That cut A2 carry handle, and KAC rails, and Surefire M951 HNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

My own 6933 pistol build has a KAC rail system, but wears a KAC BUIS and OG CompM4. I've been keeping an eye out for the right 951 deal on eBay, too. Cloners drove the price up a good bit. I should have just kept the one I was issued 10 years ago, but I turned it in like a dumbass.

I dream of putting a Surefire 5.56 can on it too, but cost will likely dictate a YHM Turbo as you chose I'm torn between the Turbo and Turbo K for the 11.5, though. I'm also torn on leaving it as a pistol build or doing a Form 1 on it. I've got a lot of other guns needing a stamp before that one, so it may wait.

[Casual Friday]

....That cut A2 carry handle, and KAC rails, and Surefire M951 HNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

My own 6933 pistol build has a KAC rail system, but wears a KAC BUIS and OG CompM4. I've been keeping an eye out for the right 951 deal on eBay, too. Cloners drove the price up a good bit. I should have just kept the one I was issued 10 years ago, but I turned it in like a dumbass.

I dream of putting a Surefire 5.56 can on it too, but cost will likely dictate a YHM Turbo as you chose I'm torn between the Turbo and Turbo K for the 11.5, though. I'm also torn on leaving it as a pistol build or doing a Form 1 on it. I've got a lot of other guns needing a stamp before that one, so it may wait.

That's my OG 6933, from when Colt was still shipping them with carry handles. I don't know if you can zoom in enough to read the bottom of the rail, but that's Daniel Defense's non free float, drop in version of the KAC RAS. DD only made them a few years, they weren't real popular I guess, but it's a solid quad rail nonetheless. The free float Omega replaced them.

The cut carry handle in my opinion is one of the best fixed rear sights you can put on a rifle. I broke the knob on the original mount that came with the CompM2, and after buying a used Aimpoint pro from a member here with the Scalarworks mount I decided that's what I'd replace the CompM2 mount with as well.

Cloners have ruined everything. If you're looking for a M951, they pop up all the time on https://www.tacswap.com and occasionally they aren't asking cloner prices. With the Malkoff head upgrade, it's like a whole new light.

I was originally going to go with the Turbo K, but I farted around and they went out of stock as the new hotness and they weren't in stock anywhere. I didn't want to put it off any longer due to wait times being long anyway so I just went with the Turbo.