In 2019 weapon lights are mandatory....convince me otherwise [Archive]

Duke

09-07-2019, 06:39 PM

I would never point a pistol at someone to determine if they were a threat. I would use a hand held light and be ready to use my pistol if necessary.

People do weird shit when they’re provoked......especially in groups.

It’s quite likely a non combatant could find themselves running toward your already drawn blaster....while ignoring your commands (if you had the presence of mind to make any clear enough to be observed) and while not showing their hands

Let’s say you just toasted someone in their immediate vicinity. They’re doing the above, charging you.

It just happens you’re in front of the last place they knew to be an escape route and they don’t actually realize it was you shooting someone.

This very thing was a scenario in a purposely overcrowded FOF class not long ago I was in.

A lot of folk got Guns pointed at them. Most didn’t get shot needlessly.

I’m not saying you’re wrong about. I’m just saying “never” is pretty hard to quantify in a mass confusion style fight.

Again. Not advocating weapon light and gun point as the way do to it....in several cases though I saw it just happen.

Jay Cunningham

09-07-2019, 06:39 PM

I would never point a pistol at someone to determine if they were a threat. I would use a hand held light and be ready to use my pistol if necessary.

So what is the point of the WML?

voodoo_man

09-07-2019, 06:43 PM

Carried a wml on duty for years.

Don't anymore.

Don't carry wml off duty either.

spinmove_

09-07-2019, 06:45 PM

Carried a wml on duty for years.

Don't anymore.

Don't carry wml off duty either.

Why?

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Wake27

09-07-2019, 06:47 PM

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?36383-WMLs-are-Useless-on-CCW-Pistols

There’s 13 pages on this from four moths ago.

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BehindBlueI's

09-07-2019, 06:48 PM

Lengthy conversation on the topic here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?36383-WMLs-are-Useless-on-CCW-Pistols

From that thread and others on the topic:

I carry two handhelds and no WML on duty (plain clothes) and one handheld and zero WML off duty. I've yet to feel the lack. Like anything, they have their pro's and con's but most of the pro's are for searching. If we assume you aren't going looking for trouble, there's very very very few realistic scenarios were you are accosted by someone and the light is too poor for target identification and location. If someone is going to rob you, it's going to be close enough to interact with you. If someone is going to attempt to rape you, they are going to be close enough to interact with you, etc. I suppose we could cook up some active shooter scenario in a blackout at the local Wally-world...but even then I think I'd like my handheld better.

...
People don't get victimized in completely dark stairwells at distances. They get victimized in places with enough ambient light for the suspect to target them and by people close enough to victimize them.

Nothing wrong with a WML if you want one. A separate and distinct light source is more flexible, though, and much more likely to be useful.

Right. Because that's what the real world has shown us. Between my personal case files and Givens' studies we've got at least 200 shootings of criminal actors, zero of which required a WML. If you don't mind the inclusion of criminal on criminal shootings, I can easily approach 1k shootings where neither side had or needed a WML. The situations where people are victimized simply don't lend themselves to needing one....that's not where random victim crime is occurring. Bad guys do at least rudimentary victim selection, they hang out where people are, and people tend to not hang out in places it's so dark you can't see what someone is carrying. As stated, you can come up with many hypothetical scenarios where this is true. The absolute closest I can think of in any of my cases is a group of robbers hanging out in a dark alley that a "Pokemon" lived in and robbing the Pokemon hunters that came down the alley at oh-dark-thirty. Do you need to see what's in the hands of someone committing the forcible felony of robbery to use lethal force to stop the forcible felony? Certainly not in my state.

The "what's in his hands" issue in a vacuum of a hypothetical doesn't really equate with how things play out in reality. Nobody just walks up and points a random object at a passerby. They verbalize intent when they make threats, demand property, etc. They may impede movement in some fashion, generally by proximity and threat, but sometimes by physical assault or blocking of exits. All of the things that would play in to if a furtive movement shooting is legally justified apply equally here.

Robinson

09-07-2019, 06:52 PM

Nightstand gun...yes.

EDC...no.

What he said.

The thread linked above has some good discussion of the topic.

JBP55

09-07-2019, 06:56 PM

So what is the point of the WML?

Not to point it at anyone unless they are a threat. I have seen too many LEO point a pistol at people in a car at night using the WML.

Jay Cunningham

09-07-2019, 07:00 PM

Not to point it at anyone unless they are a threat. I have seen too many LEO point a pistol at people in a car at night using the WML.

So who do you point it at?

RevolverRob

09-07-2019, 07:04 PM

I don't have the data of BBI, but from my files I have approximately 50 muggings/assaults that have occurred within my neighborhood. If I just isolate the ones after dark (N=12), the victims had no problem identifying age/race/actions of their attackers, unless they were ambushed directly from behind (N=2). The majority of mugging incidents here actually occurred during rush hours (morning and evening).

Weapon light goes on the gun on the nightstand. Long-guns have weapon lights on them.

When I carry a gun on my person, a hand-held light in my pocket. Usually a Four-Sevens Quark with the two mode head.

Screwball

09-07-2019, 07:15 PM

I’m going to see if I can do the training in the next month or so, as I want to get a whole new gun belt... and would be easier to do just get a new holster that takes a light (and when we switch to Glocks, another for that).

In regards to off duty, I tend to carry a light more times than I don’t. Currently, S&W 642-1 in 9mm... with LaserMax weapon light. I don’t use it for searching. However, if the gun is out, I want to see the target as best as I can. Weapon mounted light works well in that role.

A lot of people make it seem like it is one or the other; handheld or weapon light. Can do both... which is what I do. With how small/light weapon lights are today, there isn’t a real negative shy of holster availability.

JBP55

09-07-2019, 07:42 PM

So who do you point it at?

No one unless they are a threat.

Pistol Pete 10

09-07-2019, 07:57 PM

Title says it all. Tech has evolved. Kydex is everywhere for about anything you want.

I’m 50/50 in the daily carry of a weapon light. Ive Used both handheld and weapon lights in the shoot house/FOF

I fully understand weapon lights are not admin or general search tools and I always have a handheld with ringring/lanyard. That said I’d much rather point a gun with a light at something, asses it is not a threat and stop pointing my gun at it than to proceed in the darkness of no PID

For sure....it will get dark before you’re in a known safe area so, discuss

If your pistol has a rail - for you - is a weapon light mandatory ?

Always shoot at the light, flashlight, cigarette, muzzle flash, always shoot at the light.

CCT125US

09-07-2019, 08:17 PM

Recently went back to the P30, so each night the WML gets added. With camping season coming to an end for the family, my perceived usefulness of one outside of the house is now greatly diminished. I do think before next season starts, I'll pick up a Phlster Floodlight and use that while camping. But other than that, I will use the SF EDCL2T.

JSGlock34

09-07-2019, 08:23 PM

I’m 50/50 in the daily carry of a weapon light.

If I recall you were a fan of the Keeper; what holster are you using with a weapon light?

Clusterfrack

09-07-2019, 08:26 PM

I gave the WML for CCW a try for a little over a year. I shot a few 1000 rounds in low light training with it. There were pros and cons, and I do not currently have a WML on any of my CCWs. Because of this, and for other obvious reasons, I have spent significant time building good SHO shooting ability.

Pros: target acquisition, illumination +shooting +a free hand, and the ability to use a standard grip while shooting.

Cons: sight illumination is better with a handheld. Illumination and muzzle direction are independent. Specialty holsters required for every gun/light combo. Holsters not as comfortable.

I have a WML on my house pistol, and on every defensive SBR, rifle, or shotgun.

YVK

09-07-2019, 08:45 PM

I am working on fitting a small LED light inside one of the chambers of my J frame.

GJM

09-07-2019, 09:06 PM

A WML on a handgun doesn’t interest me for use with people, but for moose and bear, a WML is very handy. Especially if you might have a leash in one hand.

Duke

09-07-2019, 09:17 PM

If I recall you were a fan of the Keeper; what holster are you using with a weapon light?

Currently a modified Phlster floodlight for an x300 equipped brig tac.

Added a steel drop to one hole to add more reverse cant. Added a Velcro patch, a big keeper wedge and use a flat iron to reduce the snap loop profile.

42305

42306

Drang

09-07-2019, 09:30 PM

In 2019 weapon lights are mandatory....convince me otherwise

Semantically, of course, the thesis is absurd: There is no requirement that you must have a light on your semi-auto pistol or else.
(Yes, there may be agencies or organizations that mandate their use under certain circumstances. I ass-you-me that you are not referring to such circumscribed conditions.)

Practically... To quote (or actually to paraphrase) Mas in MAG40, "There are many valid reasons to have a light mounted on your pistol, but using it to search for a threat is not one of them."

Duke

09-07-2019, 09:32 PM

Practically... To quote (or actually to paraphrase) Mas in MAG40, "There are many valid reasons to have a light mounted on your pistol, but using it to search for a threat is not one of them."

Which I said on the 4th whole sentence of the original post......

David S.

09-07-2019, 09:35 PM

My casual-wear EDC is my nightstand gun. I've been running a P-09/RMR/TLR in a PHLster Floodlight for the last couple months and like it. I sacrifice a bit in comfort but haven't found concealability to be negatively impacted by the light.

Duke

09-07-2019, 09:49 PM

breakingtime91

09-07-2019, 09:53 PM

Its awesome to have but I don't think you absolutely need it. I think everything is a balance.. I carry a 9mm 1911 that doens't have a rail. I also train 50 rounds every week strong hand only with my light.. so am I more ready then a guy who trains once a month with his wml? Everything in context.

LOKNLOD

09-07-2019, 09:57 PM

I don't believe it's mandatory for private citizen carry. In a perfect world we'd all have a handheld, WML, green laser, red dot in play all the time. And maybe crew-served overwatch. But I don't think it's mandatory.

To start, yes one needs handheld anyway. I use a flashlight quite frequently, and I've never needed to draw a gun (*knocks on wood*) for reasons almost never involving anything remotely . Anything that's worth shooting is generally going to need to be identified before the gun comes into play. I'm also only rarely out after dark, to be honest. While there are plenty of darkish situations even during "daylight" hours, they're still situations where the gun coming out is way too late for first introduction of extra light.

From a practicality of carrying standpoint, it makes for a wide holster footprint that I find uncomfortable in the AIWB position. The bulk means I'm less likely to carry it, and I'm more likely to make a concession to a smaller gun or, heaven forbid, no gun at all. It's more sensitive to belt/pant combination selection. In paranoia of being spotted, I'm liable to downsize to a Shield-43 over a full size Glockrettakoch in many situations, even without the bulk of a light. So that's one issue. Can it be overcome? Yes. Something like a Shield or G43 with a CT LightGuard is probably pretty workable. If you can find a decent holster for it. (My preferred Keepers are not available for lights - partly because they prioritize narrow width, which is one of the reasons they work for me.)

Which gets me to my next point - activation method. A lot of the newer compact, more easily holstered lights have crappy switching. I don't have much use for lights without some sort of strong-hand grip activation. Running a light with my trigger finger doesn't feel very practical, and adds a degree of fiddlefuckery under stress that I believe adds more risk of FUBARing the process of sending bullets out the front of the gun on-and-only-on demand than it mitigates by having a light present. Depending on the gun/light combination, I can run the light with my off thumb, but that limits me to two-hand shooting. A grip-activated switch is ambidextrous and ambivalent to freestyle vs. PHO-SHO shooting. That requirement for me is very limiting to small set of (mostly larger) lights. I know there are some really solid SMEs on both sides of this opinion, but this is where I'm at.

Now, on a house gun, I do run a WML. It's a different "mission profile" if you'll pardon the buzzword and a lot of the carry drawbacks are negated by storage vs. holster.

I won't open any wormcans by opining on the practice for LE... though there is far less compromise required for duty belt carry of WML, so that's one big factor out of the way.

Duke

09-07-2019, 10:27 PM

blues

09-07-2019, 10:41 PM

Thank you all for refresh of topic. I read the other thread Linked.

Observation - a lot of folk who say wml not needed on a pistol say all their rifles have lights. What’s the difference ?

I’m not trying to over simplify a layered approach.

I'm going to let others handle this one for the most part...but a couple quick thoughts:

Long gun usually means two hands on the gun. Doesn't leave a third hand for the light.

If the long gun is for home defense and the chances of a home invasion or robbery or burglary would be at night when lights are off and you have to grab the long gun...it stands to reason that the light "may" be useful in putting your plan into effect.

Duke

09-07-2019, 10:46 PM

I'm going to let others handle this one for the most part...but a couple quick thoughts:

Long gun usually means two hands on the gun. Doesn't leave a third hand for the light.

If the long gun is for home defense and the chances of a home invasion or robbery or burglary would be at night when lights are off and you have to grab the long gun...it stands to reason that the light "may" be useful in putting your plan into effect.

Sure.

So in project mayhem - weapon lights on rifles are for general threat searching but pistol lights aren’t.

Lighthearted sarcasm and jesting implied.

blues

09-07-2019, 10:52 PM

Sure.

So in project mayhem - weapon lights on rifles are for general threat searching but pistol lights aren’t.

Lighthearted sarcasm and jesting implied.

My plan, in a home invasion at night is to have my wife go to her assigned location and grab her assigned gun, man the phones and hopefully manage the dog.

The plan, for me, is to take a position and wait for the threat to enter the fatal funnel and take appropriate action. That may or may not require lighting him or them up. I only have to account for my wife and dog. Anyone else is a bogey. (This is not searching or hunting the threat. This is letting the threat walk into the web.)

Out and about with a handgun there is usually enough ambient light to identify a threat without a light. (But always have a light, regardless.)

voodoo_man

09-07-2019, 11:15 PM

Why?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I actually posted why and it only posted the first three lines, hmmm.

Short of it - I found myself using it very sparingly on duty and in real world application, to the point I decided that it just isn't needed for what I do on a daily basis. On top of that for concealed carry, on and off duty, I found better application without a light.

The only two considerations I'd advise is that if you don't live somewhere that has street lights then you should probably have one, I have street lights everywhere. This is only applicable to pistols applied by the average pistol user. If you run a dog, a shield, or something of that nature then yeah, totally need a wml.

My personal experience has shown it's not needed in th vast majority of applications.

Now I carry one from time to time in order to eval a holster or a wml. But that's not my go to.

jnc36rcpd

09-08-2019, 12:47 AM

My former employer had quite the ordeal with WML's, much of it self-inflicted. I believe we first authorized and then mandated lights mounted on rifles, followed by shotguns. We then had the issue that the firearms training coordinator went nuts when he realized shotguns in the armory did not have lights. I wasn't up for purchasing Surefire forends for unused shotguns, but eventually the lieutenant calmed down and the armorers realized they could mount Surefire G2's to the shotguns at a reasonable cost (though that was never a great solution on a slide gun).Sometime later, someone (possibly the now promoted former firearms training coordinator) realized that while we intended (and I wrote) policy mandating lights on gauges, it had never been actually put in the general orders. The former FTC was now all about the budget, but I did try to point out that lights on long guns are a really, really good idea.

Then came the pistol mounted light issue which went full bore when newly purchased 226's came with light rails. The chief went nuts over these and, reasonably, wanted an official opinion from firearms training. While I wasn't that enthusiastic about them on pistols, I ended up tasked with research and writing the proposal. (Research and writing were skills not widely known in the firearms training staff.) Our chief, who could be passive aggressive, can't refute my logic, but mandated that if anyone has a pistol-mounted light, we will all have pistol mounted lights. Good idea, but it would have blown our budget at the time. More research and writing and pistol-mounted lights become optional.

Fast forward a few years and a new firearms training coordinator decides pistol-mounted lights will be mandatory on our new FNS-9 pistols. Great idea, except the FNS-9's malfunction consistently with lights attached. Some abandon lights forever while others, like me, leave our lights at home until FNH corrects the problem. (Never lked that gun, but great service by FNH.)

Since I was thrown out the door, the agency transitioned to Glock 17's and 19's (except for the new chief, the weight of his duties forcing him to carry a Glock 26). Lights are mandatory for all (except the chief) which has led to conflict between the training sergeant and the internal affairs lieutenant with cross accusations that neither has a light on their pistol.

After that walk down memory lane (illuminated by a TLR-1), the pistol-mounted light can be useful for policing and, less so, for self-defense applications. If I ever go into uniformed policing or armed security, I would prefer one on my duty pistol, For off duty or self defense applications, I think you need to balance comfort and concealability with the utility of the PML.

Jay Cunningham

09-08-2019, 06:51 AM

No one unless they are a threat.

How do you determine that they are a threat?

BehindBlueI's

09-08-2019, 07:03 AM

Observation - a lot of folk who say wml not needed on a pistol say all their rifles have lights. What’s the difference ?

Number of hands and context of deployment. Note that many have also said "night stand gun", which would have a deployment perhaps more similar to the long gun then your EDC walking around gun.

I also *do* sometimes use a WML as part of a general search. Long gun lights have historically been brighter by a far margin over handgun sized WML, although of course these days handgun lights can be incredibly freaking bright as well. Depending on distances, etc. you can use the edge of the light or splashed light to illuminate an area you are searching and not muzzle any area you haven't already cleared.

When clearing buildings I tend to switch back and forth between handheld and WML based on context of the moment.

gato naranja

09-08-2019, 07:25 AM

Note that many have also said "night stand gun", which would have a deployment perhaps more similar to the long gun then your EDC walking around gun.

This.

Here at Casa del Gato, the "NSG" is an outlier in many ways. In addition to being equipped with a WML, it also has a longer barrel, a few extra ounces are not a negative, etc.

gn

Hambo

09-08-2019, 07:32 AM

How do you determine that they are a threat?

You seem to want to argue one line at a time. What are you getting at?

WMLs are not stand alone lights. Use a handheld to search, and a WML (if you have one) to illuminate your target.

Jay Cunningham

09-08-2019, 07:44 AM

You seem to want to argue one line at a time. What are you getting at?

WMLs are not stand alone lights. Use a handheld to search, and a WML (if you have one) to illuminate your target.

I’m asking questions. I haven’t yet begun an argument.

Who in this thread suggested that a WML is a stand alone light?

What if you don’t have a HH light but you have a WML. Are you precluded from searching?

All that aside, I’m certain that JBP55 can speak for himself.

HCountyGuy

09-08-2019, 08:19 AM

...
That said I’d much rather point a gun with a light at something, asses it is not a threat and stop pointing my gun at it
...

And that can net you some serious jail/prison time in most places.

It's 2019, we've gone over this topic ad nauseam on this forum in at least 2-3 previous topics and yet it has somehow sprung up again.

A WML on a CCW has pretty limited practicality for the average Joe Schmo carrying to prevent himself from getting mugged leaving the local Wal-Mart Kroger Dollar General. As has been stated, crime generally does not happen in some pitch-black vacuum. I suppose if you're being targeted by some foreign black-ops wetwork team and they set off an EMP while you leave your office and have NVGs to help see you in the resulting blackout then yeah you might need a WML (or a miracle).

Having a light to illuminate things without pointing a gun at them is a great thing because it keeps you out of legal trouble and from pointing a gun at things that don't need guns pointed at them (yet).

Randy Harris's post in the linked thread articulates this line of thought exceptionally well.

...
A handheld is a pretty much mandatory piece of equipment whether you are carrying a gun or not. I can walk down any street in the world with a hand held light palmed and not break any laws, morals or ethics. I cannot do the same with a WML.

I can use a hand held to look for something I have dropped in the dark in public. I cannot do the same with a WML.

I can use the hand held to get someone's attention in public in a crowded venue by simply flashing the light and drawing their attention to me. I cannot do the same with a WML.

I can use a handheld to navigate my way through any building in the world if the power goes out. I cannot do the same with a WML.

I can use the already palmed light as a distraction device/OODA disruptor as the opening to a physical response (preemptive strike or clinch) to failed MUC. I cannot do the same with a WML.

I can use the handheld as "hammerfist helper" impact weapon if it is already in hand while managing the unknown contact. I cannot do the same with a WML.

I can use the light as a distraction device/OODA disruptor to help buy me a tiny sliver of time to draw my pistol. I cannot do the same with a WML.

I can point a handheld light at ANYONE I choose to in public and at worst I will merely annoy them .... whereas if I point my WML (and the muzzle above it) at someone who I cannot clearly articulate needing to be shot I have arguably , by definition, committed aggravated assault.

All of these things (and many more) tell me I need a handheld out in public far more than I need a WML.
...

Duke

09-08-2019, 09:00 AM

And that can net you some serious jail/prison time in most places.

It's 2019, we've gone over this topic ad nauseam on this forum in at least 2-3 previous topics and yet it has somehow sprung up again.

Well first. Name a topic that hasn’t been covered in detail numerous times.

Really I suppose we only need 3 locked/sticky threads

You don’t know what you don’t know
It depends
Move only the trigger.

Last to your jail time quip - Blanket generalizations and assumptions are something else typically seem “ad nauseam”.

If you were my attorney...Or my prosecutor...or my judge speaking directly to an incident you had full knowledge of I’d hear your statements and accept is well informed. But that’s not the situation here.

Truthfully I very closely know a guy who used a weaponlight pistol to not shoot 1 of 3 folks who stopped doing shoot worthy actions as he worked on the other 2. The weapon light in that sample of one - was very much a saving element.

From the op all your statements about handhelds were already stated.

RevolverRob

09-08-2019, 09:05 AM

And that can net you some serious jail/prison time in most places.

It's 2019, we've gone over this topic ad nauseam on this forum in at least 2-3 previous topics and yet it has somehow sprung up again.

Having a light to illuminate things without pointing a gun at them is a great thing because it keeps you out of legal trouble and from pointing a gun at things that don't need guns pointed at them (yet).

Bam! This^^^^

Which is why the WML goes on my pistol at bedtime. If someone is in my house, I can easily articulate the threat to get them the fuck outta my house by pointing a gun at them. Outside my house? Not so much. If I have a reason to take a long-arm outside of my home in an offensive/defensive scenario (exceptionally unlikely) - I'll likely be able to articulate the legal justification I had to point a gun at someone and using a WML.

Using a WML to determine if someone is/is not a threat is fallacious thinking. It's simply unrealistic for the vast majority of scenarios in civilian self-defense encounters. You either KNOW someone is a threat OR you don't point your gun at them.

One of the few advantages to a WML is that in close to pitch black it can help you see your sights. So can a neck index hand-held light. This is why we practice shooting one-handed at night.

blues

09-08-2019, 09:13 AM

You work with what you have. Some loadouts are more optimal than others but that doesn't mean you can't otherwise accomplish your goal.

A cool head and discipline will almost always trump more gear in lesser hands.

The spill from a WML can be completely adequate to the job of identifying whether a person or bump in the night presents a threat or not. It might also be a link in a chain of unfortunate events.

It is best to try to mitigate the things that might go wrong beforehand if possible...but when the whistle blows it's time to use what you've got.

Clarity of mind and focus will often carry the day absent perfect circumstances and equipment. But if you have your druthers...

RevolverRob

09-08-2019, 09:13 AM

Truthfully I very closely know a guy who used a weaponlight pistol to not shoot 1 of 3 folks who stopped doing shoot worthy actions as he worked on the other 2. The weapon light in that sample of one - was very much a saving element.

Duke,

That's not the same assertion as in your OP, with "assess they are not a threat and stop pointing my weapon at them". That's "assess that they stop being a threat and stop pointing my weapon at them."

A WML used in the scenario above worked, because your friend already could articulate that said 3 individuals were up to nefarious things and thus he likely had justification to point a weapon at them. That they stopped doing nefarious things as a function of him being armed is excellent. That he was able to maintain hands on a firearm and use his WML to continually assess the scenario is the main use of WMLs in an LE context.

In other words the WML is not useful for initial determination of threats, only the ability to continue determining if those threats are threats. That's a distinction worth drawing and noting.

Bear in mind when we review video of LE utilizing weapon lights, either in a search role or in a felony stop role. Those officers can already articulate that a serious threat is present. The average concealed carrier does not have that luxury.

Jay Cunningham

09-08-2019, 09:13 AM

Bam! This^^^^

Which is why the WML goes on my pistol at bedtime. If someone is in my house, I can easily articulate the threat to get them the fuck outta my house by pointing a gun at them. Outside my house? Not so much. If I have a reason to take a long-arm outside of my home in an offensive/defensive scenario (exceptionally unlikely) - I'll likely be able to articulate the legal justification I had to point a gun at someone and using a WML.

Using a WML to determine if someone is/is not a threat is fallacious thinking. It's simply unrealistic for the vast majority of scenarios in civilian self-defense encounters. You either KNOW someone is a threat OR you don't point your gun at them.

One of the few advantages to a WML is that in close to pitch black it can help you see your sights. So can a neck index hand-held light. This is why we practice shooting one-handed at night.

And here’s where worlds collide and where experienced people talk past each other.

Ask an LEO what they think about when they think “search”. Now ask a regular Joe what he thinks of when he thinks “search”.

You get some experienced LEOs who go berserk because they’ve seen all kinds of admin use of WMLs. I get it.

But that’s not the reality of the average citizen. It’s great advice, but normal people do not look for their keys under their couch with WMLs.

Let me throw this one out there: Is it only okay to point a muzzle at a KNOWN threat? Is it ever okay to point a muzzle at a PERCEIVED threat until clarity is achieved?

blues

09-08-2019, 09:19 AM

Let me throw this one out there: Is it only okay to point a muzzle at a KNOWN threat? Is it ever okay to point a muzzle at a PERCEIVED threat until clarity is achieved?

I would say yes...both from the POV of an LEO and civilian. It may or may not be optimal...but it can be justifiable.

Paul Blackburn

09-08-2019, 09:25 AM

For pro active door kickers- Yes
For unplanned reactive engagements- NO

RevolverRob

09-08-2019, 09:33 AM

Let me throw this one out there: Is it only okay to point a muzzle at a KNOWN threat? Is it ever okay to point a muzzle at a PERCEIVED threat until clarity is achieved?

I suppose that's an almost philosophical distinction, Jay. If you can perceive someone as a threat does that not make them "known"? Or are all threats merely unknown with varying layers of perception? :eek::rolleyes: (I'm kidding here...kind of)

Pointing a gun at someone you perceive as a threat could well be perfectly okay. You definitely need to be able to legally articulate your line of reasoning and rationality behind such choices, though. A handheld light can be used in both scenarios (a "known" vs. "perceived" threat) without any legal ramifications (well until California decides shining bright lights at people is assault). Where I think things get murky is the difference between potential threat and perceived threat. If you can articulate why you perceived someone was a threat to you, you'll generally be okay. If you view someone as a potential threat, it's important to know what actions individuals must take to move from potential to perceived to imminent.

I've drawn weapons that constitute lethal force against threats twice in my lifetime. Only once did I point the weapon at a threat.

In one situation, it was clear the individual was an imminent threat, because said individual went to his car and removed a tire iron with which he clearly meant to assault me. When he turned around and saw my knife (no handgun on my person), he recognized that his lethal force would be met with lethal force and decided he had some where else to be. I can still, to this day, articulate all of the reasons and moments where I felt the scenario turn from potential, to perceived, to imminent threat. It's been 20 years since that happened.

About 7 or 8 years later. I was working on a job sight in a very sketchy neighborhood. My father and I were both well armed (two handguns each). I went to our work van to get some tools. As I did so I noticed a dark blue sedan (Cadillac) drive past me. This car circled me twice, before parking in a parking space nearby. The occupants began talking, motioning towards me and the van. Now, at this point I could articulate that I was perceiving a potential threat, but not an imminent one. After about 20-30 seconds of discussion, the passenger began digging in the glovebox of the car. At this point, I felt that my threat level was going up and I was in imminent danger of being robbed, likely at gun point. I didn't have an easy escape route. So, I reached under my shirt and drew the revolver I had in a shoulder holster. into a low ready position. This resulted in the immediate cessation of furtive movements and discussion by both individuals in the car and they drove off, presumably to attend choir practice.

___

In those two scenarios - I think my actions were completely legally justified. If I had pointed my gun at the two guys in the car, I believe I would have stepped over the line. It's a difficult line to walk, but we have to be careful in doing so. Those are just my anecdotes. I hardly think they are the sum total of potential scenarios out there, but they are what I have personally experienced and thus have influenced my own decision-making tree.

___

PS: Just in case anyone is wondering, I have no problems with people packing WMLs on their personal weapons. I don't, but I've taken the time to assess the sum total of my circumstances. Given the times of day and locations that my most likely threats occur, a WML would be near useless. I live in an area with tons of ambient lighting. To the point where a light with less than 500 lumens of output is pretty useless.

If I lived in a place without lots of ambient lighting and/or I moved about during times of day where it was more dark than light, I would reconsider. If I traveled frequently to unknown places, I almost certainly would opt for a WML. I've carried weapons with WMLs mounted to them and see value in both sides. For me, it's extra weight and bulk at this point for the majority of my circumstances. However, a WML on my bedside gun is a YES and when I travel I mount a WML on my handgun and carry it in that way. Why? Because Duke makes a valuable point, I don't know what I don't know. When traveling in a strange land a hand-held, a WML, some arty support, maybe some close air support are all nice to have.

Duke

09-08-2019, 09:45 AM

For pro active door kickers- Yes
For unplanned reactive engagements- NO

Sure.

But let’s for a second realize that beyond a j frame in a pocket - most of the things we all consider normal edc gear now - was at a time not long ago labeled as “gamer mods/operator stuff/Duty use”

voodoo_man

09-08-2019, 11:27 AM

Since Cunningham hit the nail on the head I want to extrapolate a bit on this, as I've explained this before to various people in various classes and understanding what perspective you are looking at it from is very important.

From the LE perspective, you may be working at night or during the day and get into a dark structure/area (house basements, underground, etc). You are going into a KNOWN possible threat environment. So an alarm of some kind, searching a house, chasing a suspect into an area/structure, doing warrant service. Low/No light situations of the felony in progress variety require white light to be used to PID. This is pretty normal application of light, can easily be done two hands (light in hand, gun in other). In this category a LEO has the legal authority to point a pistol at a possible threat. There are plenty of scenarios which do not require a WML, do not require a pistol needing to be pointed at people and application of white light needed in order to properly investigate the situation. This is also not representative of the roles LEOs have while handling dogs, shields or tools, and other such special situations. These situations may require an WML but they also probably require other specific non-standard LE tools as well. Anyway you slice it, a LEO is going into a situation looking to discriminate possible threats.

From the responsible citizen perspective, pointing a firearm at anyone in order to PID them without having already determined they were a threat is going to be VERY unlikely. Think about the circumstances where you would do this and if it were to even be legal. Possibly in your house or on your private property? In those situations you wouldn't have the gun holstered, a nightstand gun with a light/laser combo is a good deal for a house-borne nightstand gun relegated to that specific purpose. The citizen walking around on the street or driving around will very seldom draw, point a firearm, and then use their light to PID. That's actually a crime in some states, as such, most responsible armed citizens will draw a concealed firearm once a threat is presented and they determine that drawing a firearm is immediately needed, the time for PID has passed at that point.

So where does the 2019 model of WML concealed carry come into play? I believe that social media, has done a yuge part in pushing the concept that you need a WML on your pistol. I carried one for many years on and off duty, uniformed and UC. I can name maybe ten times when I absolutely needed an WML on my pistol as an integrated single hand operated tool, none of those situations existed for me in my off-duty experience. Social media, however, plays a role because you see them everywhere and on every gun around. Companies are trying to push higher lumen output and smaller frames. I think that a true concealable light needs to have a laser, especially for non-LE carry. There are only a few that do that correctly while keeping a small form factor (like the tlr7/550xl) but they don't have lasers, although the TLR8 does. This is one of those rare situations where you need to figure out if the concealment and comfort limitations of having a light outweigh the application of the light, I would argue it does not.

The only thing to consider, as I posted in my previous response, is if you work/live in an area that has no ambient light, no street lights, no artificial light at all and you are out after sunset. I would argue that you may need a WML in order to PID a threat as part of situational awareness. This does not apply to everyone and most people are not out after dark enough to mandate a dedicated AIWB/IWB setup for a light all year round. Many people swap to OWB gun+light combo when its the winter and gets dark early in these particular environments. If that's the case you need to assess for yourself the requirement.

Regardless of any of the above, you need to have a hand held light that has a lot of lumens, it being 2019, a USB rechargeable hand held is almost mandatory. Having another light in your bag, car, etc is a good idea as well, two is one and all that.

As for rifles, every rifle should have a light which can allow you to PID within your effective contact distance.

JBP55

09-08-2019, 11:59 AM

You seem to want to argue one line at a time. What are you getting at?

WMLs are not stand alone lights. Use a handheld to search, and a WML (if you have one) to illuminate your target.

What Hambo said Jay.

JBP55

09-08-2019, 12:05 PM

My plan, in a home invasion at night is to have my wife go to her assigned location and grab her assigned gun, man the phones and hopefully manage the dog.

The plan, for me, is to take a position and wait for the threat to enter the fatal funnel and take appropriate action. That may or may not require lighting him or them up. I only have to account for my wife and dog. Anyone else is a bogey. (This is not searching or hunting the threat. This is letting the threat walk into the web.)

Out and about with a handgun there is usually enough ambient light to identify a threat without a light. (But always have a light, regardless.)

Same response here.

JBP55

09-08-2019, 12:07 PM

I’m asking questions. I haven’t yet begun an argument.

Who in this thread suggested that a WML is a stand alone light?

What if you don’t have a HH light but you have a WML. Are you precluded from searching?

All that aside, I’m certain that JBP55 can speak for himself.

I can and did so carry on.

ssb

09-08-2019, 12:15 PM

My EDC handgun is also my primary HD tool. I like having a WML on it for the HD role. I do not like unloading/reloading the handgun on a regular basis, which would be required to safely install/uninstall a WML: in my view, more administrative handling = more opportunities for me to be inattentive or negligent.

Because I have a holster/light combo which allows me to conceal a WML-equipped pistol with comfort, I leave the WML on all the time. If in the already-unlikely event I'm drawing in a public place where I need the PID capability, great, it's there if I need it. If I don't need it, I still get a couple extra ounces at the muzzle to keep muzzle rise down.

In no way do I view it as a mandatory addition to my EDC gun, as the real world opportunities for it being necessary are on a very distant part of the bell curve. I'm carrying it solely because there's no consequence for not doing so and I gain the benefit of not having to screw with my gun.

As for the idea of them being "necessary," I blame social media, and in particular a specific well-intentioned crowd whose followers sometimes devolve into groupthink regarding things that aren't really applicable to them.

RevolverRob

09-08-2019, 12:30 PM

My EDC handgun is also my primary HD tool. I like having a WML on it for the HD role. I do not like unloading/reloading the handgun on a regular basis, which would be required to safely install/uninstall a WML: in my view, more administrative handling = more opportunities for me to be inattentive or negligent.

One reason I vastly prefer the Streamlight TLR 1-4 series of lights (in addition to their switch) is that the can clip over the side of the rail, instead of sliding over the rail from the front This means you can attach the light without worrying about muzzling yourself. This is another reason I prefer a handgun with a manual safety. Holding my 1911 with my strong hand, I can use my strong hand thumb to apply positive upward pressure to the thumb safety, while my weak hand installs and tightens the light. Takes approximately 5-seconds.

I of course don't intend to muzzle my own hand, but in the event that I did, I have a finger properly indexed, a thumb applying upward pressure to a locked thumb safety. Remember the thing about the 4 rules, you have to break two of them to get into real trouble. Though avoiding breaking any of them at any time is preferable.

Similarly a Beretta 92 or other slide mounted safety device can be held securely in the safe position with the strong hand thumb during manipulations. Similarly any decock lever can be held in the decock position and should render the firearm safe for administrative manipulations. It's been awhile since I've used a P-Series Sig, but if I recall, you cannot simultaneously hold the decock lever down and activate the trigger. I know this to be true on Berettas and older Ruger P-Series guns.

ssb

09-08-2019, 12:45 PM

One reason I vastly prefer the Streamlight TLR 1-4 series of lights (in addition to their switch) is that the can clip over the side of the rail, instead of sliding over the rail from the front This means you can attach the light without worrying about muzzling yourself.

Once the screw is loosened, I can do the same with a TLR7. Nevertheless, it's something I'd rather not do on a twice-daily basis, particularly with a loaded gun which lacks a manual safety. I have plenty of training and experience with a handgun and have a reasonably good understanding of firearms safety. That doesn't mean I go looking for more opportunities to have to apply that knowledge.

Again, the WML hurts nothing for concealment/comfort for me, otherwise it'd either come off while carrying or I'd have a loaded second gun dedicated to HD use. While I have a near-identical backup for training, it's kept unloaded for dry fire.

Texaspoff

09-08-2019, 12:52 PM

For me personally, I have not nor do I ever plan on using a WML, on a pistol. I do always have at least two other forms of illumination, both on and off duty. I have practiced extensively with the use of a separate light while shooting and I am completely comfortable with it. My reasoning is going to be different from the average person, and unless this has happened to you you likely won't understand.

Years ago while searching a building on night shift, long before such things as a WML's. I had my SL20 shot out of my support hand by the suspect inside the building. At that time, we were trained to use our flashlights down low away from our body, and that is what kept me from taking a center mass hit if it had been a WML. When the suspect was interviewed, he specifically stated he was shooting at the light, because he knew that an officer was behind it, and yes I was strobing it.

I will never razz anyone who chooses to use a WML, as if used correctly is an outstanding tool. For me, It doesn't offer me any advantage over my current setup, and sometimes easier isn't always better.

TXPO

HCountyGuy

09-08-2019, 01:56 PM

...
So where does the 2019 model of WML concealed carry come into play? I believe that social media, has done a yuge part in pushing the concept that you need a WML on your pistol.
...

This all the way. The current state of the social media "EDC" gun is insane. Folks will do anything and put everything on their gun because it makes them look Operator AF.

WML? Check
Ported slide? Check
Aftermarket barrel that has some porting or dimpling on it? Check
Punisher Skull somewhere on the gun? Check

The list goes on.

What people have been convinced they need to have and what they actually need has so little overlap as to almost be two seperate circles in the venn diagram of the two. Designer guns are all the rage, but the guys shooting them still can't manage better than a 10" group at 5 yards. That's okay though because "Combat Accuracy".

Duke

09-08-2019, 02:02 PM

This all the way. The current state of the social media "EDC" gun is insane. Folks will do anything and put everything on their gun because it makes them look Operator AF.

WML? Check
Ported slide? Check
Aftermarket barrel that has some porting or dimpling on it? Check
Punisher Skull somewhere on the gun? Check

The list goes on.

What people have been convinced they need to have and what they actually need has so little overlap as to almost be two seperate circles in the venn diagram of the two. Designer guns are all the rage, but the guys shooting them still can't manage better than a 10" group at 5 yards. That's okay though because "Combat Accuracy".

I agree with this nearly completely.

It is fair to equate social media influence today to what, about 15 years ago when everyone (figuratively ) tried to mimic or utilize the cool guy gear they read about it monthly gun Magazines and the like.

Spread of info in many ways - regarding safe gun handling, personal marksmanship and effective speed with your carry gear imo has been a net positive of this info surge, even if the needed mod list has gotten out of hand

Check my Ig for multiple videos of me splitting cards with my 92g, lighting matches with bullets etc.... so not everyone has let their “combat accuracy” degrade.

blues

09-08-2019, 02:09 PM

This all the way. The current state of the social media "EDC" gun is insane. Folks will do anything and put everything on their gun because it makes them look Operator AF.

WML? Check
Ported slide? Check
Aftermarket barrel that has some porting or dimpling on it? Check
Punisher Skull somewhere on the gun? Check

The list goes on.

What people have been convinced they need to have and what they actually need has so little overlap as to almost be two seperate circles in the venn diagram of the two. Designer guns are all the rage, but the guys shooting them still can't manage better than a 10" group at 5 yards. That's okay though because "Combat Accuracy".

Well, there are plenty of disconnects on the webz. I can't speak to what goes on at facebook, twitter or instagram because I have no memberships at any.

For all the grumbling about how LEOs can't shoot and aren't gun guys...the guys who are out there actually having to draw their weapons, (under pressure), and decide "shoot / don't shoot" in a fraction of a second are those very LEOs who allegedly can't shoot and aren't gun guys.

Frankly, this "analysis" notwithstanding, whose advice or experience should be taken more seriously? The 50,000 post expert who has never had to draw his firearm against a threat...or the one facing the potential threat on a daily basis?

You decide.

(Personally I try to filter out all the hot new girl hype. It managed to be good enough for 20+ years while working, and continues to be a reliable method of deciding what is worth making changes for going forward. I make changes from stock reluctantly and only after being able to articulate the basis.)

Rex G

09-08-2019, 03:56 PM

Mandatory on handguns? No, not even in 2019. Too darn big, anyway.

Nice to have, at times? Yes, such as on a home-defense G17.

I managed to survive plenty of building searches, while night-shift big-city-LEO-ing, without a WML. I had used an X200 WML, when it suited me, until somebody on the command staff realized that WMLs existed, and then BAM; WMLs were forbidden.

Actually, WMLs were studied to death, and, eventually, years later, WMLs were allowed, on handguns, but only if one attended a specified training class, too few of which were ever posted to train nearly everyone.

Notably, the PD’s firearms rules applied 24/7/365, except in our own homes, and on private property under our personal control.

Now that I am retired, and can use a WML, if I want, anywhere I choose, well, they are too big for concealed carry, under most cover garments, making an already-blocky weapon larger and blockier. As for AIWB with an WML affixed, well, forget it. A bare Glock is all I can stand AIWB, and even then, not for very long.

Totem Polar

09-08-2019, 05:03 PM

Now that I am retired, and can use a WML, if I want, anywhere I choose, well, they are too big for concealed carry, under most cover garments, making an already-blocky weapon larger and blockier. As for AIWB with an WML affixed, well, forget it. A bare Glock is all I can stand AIWB, and even then, not for very long.

Plus, WMLs are hard to attach to GPs and Gemini SPs. Don’t forget that.

blues

09-08-2019, 05:22 PM

Plus, WMLs are hard to attach to GPs and Gemini SPs. Don’t forget that.

Two words. Duct tape.

Rex G

09-08-2019, 05:30 PM

Plus, WMLs are hard to attach to GPs and Gemini SPs. Don’t forget that.

True. Same with my Speed Sixes, S&W 64-2, and Les Baers.

Love my herd of Surefire hand-held lights, mostly LX2 Digital Lumamax. :)

Jay Cunningham

09-08-2019, 05:50 PM

Two words. Duct tape.

hose clamp?

Totem Polar

09-08-2019, 05:55 PM

hose clamp?

https://www.themakogroup.com/clearance/sling-and-flashlight-adapter-mount-for-shotguns-and-rifles.html

RevolverRob

09-08-2019, 06:25 PM

42338

TXBK

09-08-2019, 06:46 PM

Out and about with a handgun there is usually enough ambient light to identify a threat without a light. (But always have a light, regardless.)

For me, my environment is a factor. I am more inclined to carry a WML when I’m in a rural environment, where ample ambient light may not be present and I’m less concerned with concealment. When I have to go to the city, ambient light is more available and concealment is more important so I carry without a WML. I always carry a light in my pocket, regardless.

When I’m on my property, a rifle is the tool of choice and I’m less concerned about any legal issues from identifying a potential threat with my WML.

blues

09-08-2019, 06:51 PM

For me, my environment is a factor. I am more inclined to carry a WML when I’m in a rural environment, where ample ambient light may not be present and I’m less concerned with concealment. When I have to go to the city, ambient light is more available and concealment is more important so I carry without a WML. I always carry a light in my pocket, regardless.

When I’m on my property, a rifle is the tool of choice and I’m less concerned about any legal issues from identifying a potential threat with my WML.

Makes sense to me.

There are no lights where I live, (but from the homes), so when I walk the dog at night, up our forested gravel road, it's with a headlamp on. Makes it easier than having to hold the lead in one hand, a flashlight in the other. With the headlamp it doesn't matter if my handgun has a light or not.

TXBK

09-08-2019, 07:05 PM

Makes sense to me.

There are no lights where I live, (but from the homes), so when I walk the dog at night, up our forested gravel road, it's with a headlamp on. Makes it easier than having to hold the lead in one hand, a flashlight in the other. With the headlamp it doesn't matter if my handgun has a light or not.

My backcountry gun doesn’t have a WML, because I’m wearing a headlamp most of the time.

BillSWPA

09-08-2019, 07:31 PM

Last spring, my wife, kids and I were returning home, with me and the kids going in the front door of the darkened house, believing my wife was behind us. When I entered the house, I heard a noise coming from the kitchen. As I listened and prepared to respond however may prove to be appropriate, my wife ran out to try to scare us. She had run around to the back door for that purpose.

If I was not a firm believer in ALWAYS identifying the target, a stupid choice paired with a second bad choice could have led to a tragic outcome.

I ALWAYS have a handheld light, and that will never change. However, as better lights and better IWB holster options become available, there will be lights on my carry guns, starting with s Nightstick compact weapon light on the G19 I was carrying that day. I want as many possible ways to avoid a negative outcome as I can have.

Unfortunately there are few options for weapon lights and weapon light accommodating pocket holsters for my preferred pocket guns. We are still a long way from always having a way to have a weapon light.

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EVP

09-08-2019, 08:31 PM

To the OPs question, No I don’t think it is mandatory or necessary in the slightest, for all of the many salient points that have been made by some experienced people and LEOs.

I also think the OP addressed and covered that we are not talking about misusing the WML and have a handheld for all admin tasks.

I am on the side of if the bulk does not hinder you in anyway, then why not. It does not hurt you to have it.

Ssb perfectly sums it up in the below quote.

My EDC handgun is also my primary HD tool. I like having a WML on it for the HD role. I do not like unloading/reloading the handgun on a regular basis, which would be required to safely install/uninstall a WML: in my view, more administrative handling = more opportunities for me to be inattentive or negligent.

Because I have a holster/light combo which allows me to conceal a WML-equipped pistol with comfort, I leave the WML on all the time. If in the already-unlikely event I'm drawing in a public place where I need the PID capability, great, it's there if I need it. If I don't need it, I still get a couple extra ounces at the muzzle to keep muzzle rise down.

In no way do I view it as a mandatory addition to my EDC gun, as the real world opportunities for it being necessary are on a very distant part of the bell curve. I'm carrying it solely because there's no consequence for not doing so and I gain the benefit of not having to screw with my gun.
.

TXBK

09-08-2019, 08:51 PM

Even though my eyesight has degraded in the past few years, I think I can evaluate a threat with an X300 without flagging it.

BillSWPA

09-08-2019, 09:16 PM

Having not read the entire thread, I see distinctions being made between a concealed carry gun and a home defense gun.

I have occasionally had a need to search in a location other than my home. In most cases the likelihood of finding someone who belonged there was much higher than the likelihood of finding someone who did not belong there. The best option was keeping the light out and gun holstered and concealed.

However, if you enter your home and then find indications that someone may be there who does not belong there, your concealed carry gun just became your home defense gun.

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Sammy1

09-08-2019, 09:50 PM

Even though my eyesight has degraded in the past few years, I think I can evaluate a threat with an X300 without flagging it.

THIS! You can search at the low or high ready and use ambient lighting for illumination.

arcticlightfighter

09-08-2019, 10:01 PM

Uniformed duty use Surefire X300U absolutely. I work dogs so a weapon mounted light with pressure switch is necessary. Even during day shift clearing indoors it is necessary.

Off duty not so much but always have a handheld 600 lumen available.

GJM

09-08-2019, 10:54 PM

My backcountry gun doesn’t have a WML, because I’m wearing a headlamp most of the time.

My experience is that a headlamp illuminates the rear sight and back of the gun, while making the front sight invisible.

10mmfanboy

09-08-2019, 11:42 PM

A WML on a handgun doesn’t interest me for use with people, but for moose and bear, a WML is very handy. Especially if you might have a leash in one hand.
Exactly this! I think most people think in the context of city, suburbia etc... There is absolutely a need for a WML in the country. Creatures run fast and it is so dark where I live you can't see your hand in front of your face. I also like having a WML because then I have spare batteries with me for my flashlight in case they die, which they do. I also like WML for extra muzzle weight. To me they have a use for more than just lighting up what you are shooting at.

corneileous

09-09-2019, 07:20 AM

I had originally bought one of those Streamlight TLR-4 laser/flashlight combos- pictured below currently on my Sig 10mm, for my nightstand pistol but soon after didn’t take long after other discussions on this topic that I decided I’d just be better off using my rechargeable Mac-tac flashlight in one hand up high, pistol in other hand because for one, I don’t really like pointing my gun somewhere just to put light on it and two, if there is an intruder in your house and if they do have a gun, having that weapon mounted flashlight in my opinion gives something for that intruder to shoot at; at least by holding your flashlight up high and if he does fire a round at your flashlight, it won’t be in your center body mass....hopefully.

I think my laser/flashlight is much better suited for my 10 mm as it’s my woods gun, for four-legged predators.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190909/a00e68469446891eae21ee9efa0ea974.jpg

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corneileous

09-09-2019, 07:26 AM

So what is the point of the WML?

I there’s a lot of good points for a flashlight mounted to your Picatinny rail but like the person said that you were quoting, if you ever have to do a search of your home in the middle of the night, having a weapon-mounted flashlight requires you to have to point your gun in every direction just to shed light on it. Not really a safe thing to do as it could be one of your kids for example that just got done sneaking back in the house, or got up in the middle of night for a midnight snack.

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TXBK

09-09-2019, 07:30 AM

My experience is that a headlamp illuminates the rear sight and back of the gun, while making the front sight invisible.

I haven’t shot with a headlamp, so thanks for sharing that. Is this while wearing a hat, without a hat, or both?

JTQ

09-09-2019, 07:34 AM

Just a data point, this from Tucker Gun Leather https://tuckergunleather.com/faq/

Q. Does Tucker recommend carrying a defensive pistol with a light attached to an accessory rail?

A. Tucker says, "If you're on a SWAT team, go for it. If not, your pistol is a quick-response tool for a sudden and extreme self-defense situation. If you have a light on the gun, you may find it distracting enough to slow down your response."

Leroy Suggs

09-09-2019, 07:44 AM

My experience is that a headlamp illuminates the rear sight and back of the gun, while making the front sight invisible.

This is my experience, especially with a high lumen head lamp.

blues

09-09-2019, 07:57 AM

This is my experience, especially with a high lumen head lamp.

Maybe that's why I haven't noticed an issue.

I've checked my 642 with painted front sight...and my Glocks wearing HDs and I can see the front sights just fine with a headlamp.

That said, I generally walk at night with the 70 lumens setting or under...though the headlamp has a max output of 1000 lumens.

I only raise the output of the light if I hear or see something that I need a better look at.

Leroy Suggs

09-09-2019, 08:02 AM

Maybe that's why I haven't noticed an issue.

I've checked my 642 with painted front sight...and my Glocks wearing HDs and I can see the front sights just fine with a headlamp.

That said, I generally walk at night with the 70 lumens setting or under...though the headlamp has a max output of 1000 lumens.

I only raise the output of the light if I hear or see something that I need a better look at.

I agree that a low lumen works ok with the sights.

GJM

09-09-2019, 08:32 AM

I haven’t shot with a headlamp, so thanks for sharing that. Is this while wearing a hat, without a hat, or both?

Hat doesn’t matter.

ST911

09-09-2019, 08:40 AM

blues

09-09-2019, 08:50 AM

@GJM (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=410), @Leroy Suggs (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=7260), @TXBK (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=12850), @blues (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=13538)

I wear headlamps quite a bit. For handguns, try some combination of these, depending on your needs and environment.

lower intensity light, especially the spot
use flood rather than spot
serrated rears
high vis fronts (trij HD, bolds, etc)

For some people, it won't work with their vision no matter what. Also, most people wear headlamps to aim down. Try wearing one upside-down so they can be flipped up. Indoors you get ceiling bounce and outdoors some usable spill.

That's pretty much the recipe, ST911, as I have come to know it.

I've been wearing a headlamp nightly for many years, twice a night during the winter months when it gets dark earlier.

The key for me is using the lower lumens, a flood vs. pencil beam, beam directed out many yards ahead...not down, and keeping the eyes moving rather than simply focused on where the light is projected.

FWIW, the model I am using the past couple of years is a Nitecore HC30 (https://flashlight.nitecore.com/product/hc30). It has proven durable and reliable regardless of weather and when dropped on a concrete surface in the garage. It has a range of settings from seriously low, for map reading in the dark without losing night vision...to more than I ever really use.

JohnO

09-09-2019, 09:43 AM

I've been wearing a headlamp nightly for many years, twice a night during the winter months when it gets dark earlier.

The key for me is using the lower lumens, a flood vs. pencil beam, beam directed out many yards ahead...not down, and keeping the eyes moving rather than simply focused on where the light is projected.

FWIW, the model I am using the past couple of years is a Nitecore HC30 (https://flashlight.nitecore.com/product/hc30). It has proven durable and reliable regardless of weather and when dropped on a concrete surface in the garage. It has a range of settings from seriously low, for map reading in the dark without losing night vision...to more than I ever really use.

I too am out with the dogs every night multiple times. I always have a quality handheld light and usually a headlamp too. The headlamp is a cheapo EverReady with spot, flood and red LEDs. It works fine but I have been thinking about getting a better quality headlight. I really like wearing the headlamp over a ball cap. The brim keeps my eyes shaded from the beams.

My dogs go out off lead wearing an e-collar which has the capability of turning on a constant or flashing white light. Both have thick fur around their necks so the e-collar light doesn't show well. Therefore I added a secondary light to their regular collars https://www.rayallen.com/cobra-buckle-collar-with-handle. A 6" long strip of inch wide Velcro hook secures the beacon to the loop material on the collar. Blue for the female and white for the male https://store.sportdog.com/locator-beacon. The e-collar is my insurance that I can correct them individually if don't obey. I keep it set on vibrate and that suffices for minor corrections. Taking off after a coyote that took a stern yell plus a couple zaps.

blues

09-09-2019, 09:58 AM

I have one of these Nite Ize lights (https://www.amazon.com/Nite-Ize-SpotLit-Carabiner-Resistant/dp/B001E8BA9M) on my dogs collar...

...I can no longer let her run off lead at night. Her prey drive gets the better of her and I have yet to work with an e-collar.

When I carry a handheld light, it's one of my several Malkoff lights. I've yet to find a better, more rugged alternative.

TC215

09-09-2019, 11:42 AM

Thought this was relevant: Mother accidentally shoots daughter.

“The key question would be if the mother was negligent in not identifying her daughter before shooting,” Scala said, according to the station.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/ohio-mom-shot-daughter-prosecution

Rex G

09-09-2019, 12:59 PM

My experience is that a headlamp illuminates the rear sight and back of the gun, while making the front sight invisible.

I readily agree, even without trying it myself. There is a scientific formula, called the Inverse Square Law, that shows how light diminishes in intensity, over distance. The front sight will have far, far less illumination, on it, than the back of the weapon, and rear sight. The eyes’ iris will contract, to “meter” light, based upon the light level at the rear of the weapon.

I am no physicist, but am a (non-pro*) photographer, for whom the Inverse Square Law is a Thing. I borrowed the term “meter” from photography jargon. If a photographic subject is a very short distance from the light source, another object, a very short short distance behind it, will be nearly invisible, if the ambient light level is low, or dark. To get equal light on the front and rear sights of a pistol, at macro distance, I need to illuminate them from a light source that illuminates both of them from an equal distance, which means from one side, or the other, which works with off-camera flash, in photography, but is hardly practical, in a gunfight. Alternatively, I can light each sight with its own, dedicated light source, which is also impractical, during a gunfight.

Camera lenses work much like human eyes; therefore the equivalence.

*I did have to learn serious close-range photography, when doing evidentiary/forensic/crime scene photography, as “camera unit” was one of the hats I wore, as a police patrol officer. (Just please don’t ask me questions about focus stacking, HDR, or anything done during post-processing, as post-processing, or anything that could be seen as “manipulating” the image, was against the rules.)

blues

09-09-2019, 01:02 PM

Rex, you should try it before dismissing it. I've pulled my gun and tested it for myself at various times. It may not work for everyone but it does work.

BK14

09-09-2019, 01:08 PM

Just a data point, this from Tucker Gun Leather https://tuckergunleather.com/faq/

Not attacking your stance, but I wouldn’t call that a data point.... Does the guy behind Tucker have LE experience?

There is no downside besides bulk/comfort/cost to having a WML. My draw speed with or without stays the same, so I’m not sure what your quoted post is referencing with a slower reaction. If I want to use my handheld light (I have 3 on me while on duty) I use it. If I want my WML, I use it. Sometimes I search buildings with my handheld, sometimes with my WML, just depends, but with it I have options.

When it come to reactionary incidents, if I need a light to PID while “reacting” like Tucker said, I’m faster to draw a gun and activate the WML then draw a gun and light separately. Alternatively, if I’m doing some sort of a “speed draw” that probably means the lighting is decent enough for me to have already PID’d a threat and I can ignore that there is a WML on my gun.

Outside of lighting, which is obviously the main advantage, as shown by USPSA open and limited (if you’re Dave Sevigny and remove the guts) adding weight helps reduce recoil. Adding a muzzle standoff gives you options (contact shot? Probably not, but glass breaking works pretty well).

My EDC off duty gun has a light some days, and doesn’t others. Just depends how comfortable I want to be. But I always have a handheld. I think there are serious advantages to the WML, but despite the size advances like the TLR-7, it’s still more comfy for me to carry with no light.

BillSWPA

09-09-2019, 02:13 PM

corneileous

09-09-2019, 03:00 PM

ANY serious defensive light will put out more than enough lumens so that, if it is used indoors, everything in the room will instantly be lighted, including the user. There is no need to point the gun at anything to illuminate it with a WML.

The issue of drawing a gun and light quickly was discussed above. Add concealment Into the mix, and drawing a gun with a WML becomes even easier as compared to simultaneously drawing a gun and separate light. See at least 2 above posts discussing getting surprised at home or while arriving home.

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That’s true. I never really thought about that, that you don’t necessarily have to point your pistol at anything in particular just to put light on it. You could for the most part just have your gun aimed at the floor and with a bright enough light- even the 150 lumen streamlight, you’re still gonna put adequate light out to see what’s going on but still, I think I’d just rather use a handheld flashlight just so that I don’t make myself a target by being directly behind something that could be shot at if the guy was hiding behind something.

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JodyH

09-09-2019, 05:54 PM

Still the best backcountry, dog walking, pistol shooting light made.

42382

HopetonBrown

09-09-2019, 05:59 PM

I think I’d just rather use a handheld flashlight just so that I don’t make myself a target by being directly behind something that could be shot at if the guy was hiding behind something.

Vickers said most untrained people shoot low left, which is exactly where you're at with an FBI hold.

blues

09-09-2019, 06:10 PM

Vickers said most untrained people shoot low left, which is exactly where you're at with an FBI hold.

Not only that, but consider the environment where a headlamp is going to be worn. There have been some murders in our national and state forests nearby, I can think of three in the past 16 years. As far as the local subdivisions, I can't even remember a burglary, let alone a violent crime.

(That doesn't mean we don't prepare...)

Chuck Haggard

09-09-2019, 06:25 PM

corneileous

09-09-2019, 06:37 PM

Vickers said most untrained people shoot low left, which is exactly where you're at with an FBI hold.

So which FBI hold we talkin’ about? I just chose some random YouTube video to get an idea what that was and the one I watched was presented by USCCA who showed 4 or 5 different techniques.

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corneileous

09-09-2019, 06:38 PM

Chuck Haggard

09-09-2019, 06:41 PM

Soon take it he had his arm extended upwards and outwards holding his flashlight?

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Yes

corneileous

09-09-2019, 06:43 PM

Yes

Well, that right there is why I no longer have a flashlight mounted to any of my guns except for the 10mm that goes out in the woods. Don’t reckon I’ll ever have to worry about anything 4-legged shooting at me. Lol.

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BK14

09-09-2019, 06:45 PM

So, take it he had his arm extended upwards and outwards holding his flashlight?

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Generic image from the google:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190909/569412925d68d558ee346bcb9fb29d23.jpg

And a good example of application of the technique from Will Petty:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190909/e6ed44e599190e8549d724f46ce96ef7.jpg

Chuck Haggard

09-09-2019, 06:46 PM

Well, that right there is why I no longer have a flashlight mounted to any of my guns except for the 10mm that goes out in the woods. Don’t reckon I’ll ever have to worry about anything 4-legged shooting at me. Lol.

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In George's world I'd likely have a light on my Glock 20 or USP .45

Charlie don't surf, bears don't shoot.

SAWBONES

09-09-2019, 06:46 PM

I can't understand anyone wanting a WML or having much interest in tritiated sights.

Sure, have 'em if you like, but from my perspective they're either an unnecessary encumbrance (WML) or a superfluous expense that requires replacing every 4-10 years. (I bought into the advertised concept of tritiated sights being a "necessity" for a few years before recognizing how very limited their genuine usefulness was, and I've had them dim out in as short a time as 4 years.)

In 35 years of (non-LEO) CCW I've never yet used nor wished for a WML.

I do have one (old tech incandescent, not LED, change the batteries regularly) on my bedside security-holstered G21, because in our little house, anything that goes loudly "bump in the night" won't be my wife or kids (who are long grown & gone), but in my AIWB- or hip-holstered sidearm?

Nah.

YMMV, etc.

Chuck Haggard

09-09-2019, 06:48 PM

And a good example of application of the technique from Will Petty:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190909/e6ed44e599190e8549d724f46ce96ef7.jpg

Will is displaying excellent form in that pic.

I've been in pretty much that same position several times during barricade drills when my light took a hit.

blues

09-09-2019, 06:52 PM

I can't understand anyone wanting a WML or having much interest in tritiated sights.

I was fine from 1988 through 2016 when I joined this place...

(In truth they do help on a couple of stages of my LEOSA night quals where the lighting is such that I can barely make out the target and can see my sights not at all (otherwise.)

BK14

09-09-2019, 06:54 PM

Pistol mounted lights are far from mandatory, especially for CCW use. The real world need for a pistol light for CCW is near absolute zero. The real world need for pistol mounted lights in police work is vastly less than most people think.

Searching with WMLs is shitty tactics. It works a lot with long guns because team use. How many people have an entry team backing their move?

Modified FBI technique works. Fact.

My latest data point is one of my former rookies, our new county sheriff, who took a bullet through the forearm just below his flashlight at the start of a close range ambush. He credits modified FBI technique with saving his life.

Over my years working with Strategos and running low light FoF drills I've taken Sim rounds directly into the lens or bezel of my handheld light about a dozen times. As Craig Douglas notes in his most excellent AMIS class "Lights draw vision, lights draw fire".

Can we get some context of this ambush? Was his light already on hand, was he in cover, lighting etc. At my current level of training, I’d have a hard time responding to an ambush by drawing a gun one handed and a light with the other hand.

I guess my general preference from WML vs handheld from a LE usage is from the idea that I’d rather have better control on my gun to be putting more rounds on target with more precision, than relying on the suspect targeting my light. Obviously context depends here, and like I said I carry both so I have options.

We don’t clear buildings at my agency without at least 2-3 backup officers, and for me personally it’s with guys that I train with pretty regularly. Is your sentiment that searching a building with a WML is “shitty tactics” universally, or for a cop (or civi) with nobody else with him?

Chuck Haggard

09-09-2019, 07:06 PM

Can we get some context of this ambush? Was his light already on hand, was he in cover, lighting etc. At my current level of training, I’d have a hard time responding to an ambush by drawing a gun one handed and a light with the other hand.

I guess my general preference from WML vs handheld from a LE usage is from the idea that I’d rather have better control on my gun to be putting more rounds on target with more precision, than relying on the suspect targeting my light. Obviously context depends here, and like I said I carry both so I have options.

We don’t clear buildings at my agency without at least 2-3 backup officers, and for me personally it’s with guys that I train with pretty regularly. Is your sentiment that searching a building with a WML is “shitty tactics” universally, or for a cop (or civi) with nobody else with him?

Pedestrian stop on a suspicious subject on a very dark street. No reason yet to have gun in hand. Lit guy up as he approached due to voice commands. A very typical "Hey, I need to talk to you a minute" situation. Bad guy turned out to have just done a robbery, our guy didn't know that. Bad guy pulled as he got close and came at the officer shooting.

Yes, I am saying that using a pistol mounted light to search a building is shitty tactics, even when you have other officers on scene. Handheld lights are a vastly better search tool. I don't care if you shoot better with two hands on the gun. It's not a gunfight yet, because you have no idea where in the fuck the potential bad guy is.

Typical cop "low light" training is range training. This leads to Good Idea Fairy bullshit that doesn't translate into the reality of the bad guy gets a vote in how well our tactics work.

Chuck Haggard

09-09-2019, 07:08 PM

People who are serious in wanting to read more on this subject should spend the $19 for Ken Good's book;

https://www.progressivecombat.com/

corneileous

09-09-2019, 07:15 PM

Generic image from the google:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190909/569412925d68d558ee346bcb9fb29d23.jpg

And a good example of application of the technique from Will Petty:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190909/e6ed44e599190e8549d724f46ce96ef7.jpg

I would think the top technique, or maybe even more of a lower, out to the side technique would be a little better. I would think it wouldn’t take much for someone to think the guy shining a high flashlight at them is hardly 7 foot tall and would aim a little lower. Lol.

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BK14

09-09-2019, 07:20 PM

People who are serious in wanting to read more on this subject should spend the $19 for Ken Good's book;

https://www.progressivecombat.com/

I’ll be buying the book.

This is literally the first time I’ve heard of someone saying searching with a WML is bad tactics.... My agency does building searches the way we do based off training, and experience of officers. We do quite a bit of force on force working these scenarios, and the conclusion from those that’ve done it, and the training side is it works. We don’t even teach handheld light technique usage except on the flat range because of the successes of WML usage.

I’m not saying this to say you’re wrong, quite the opposite, I’m saying this to say I want to learn to do it both ways. Who would you recommend to train with to get this type of exposure?

BK14

09-09-2019, 07:26 PM

I would think the top technique, or maybe even more of a lower, out to the side technique would be a little better. I would think it wouldn’t take much for someone to think the guy shining a high flashlight at them is hardly 7 foot tall and would aim a little lower. Lol.

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That’s part of the point of the technique. Based off the context you can adapt the technique. You don’t always have room to stick you hand straight out to the side. Putting the light high in the bottom picture is to get your illumination past the barrier, the car, and down range to the target.

corneileous

09-09-2019, 07:29 PM

Shumba

09-09-2019, 07:42 PM

People who are serious in wanting to read more on this subject should spend the $19 for Ken Good's book;

https://www.progressivecombat.com/

Thanks for the link Chuck.
Shumba

SAWBONES

09-09-2019, 08:05 PM

(In truth they do help on a couple of stages of my LEOSA night quals where the lighting is such that I can barely make out the target and can see my sights not at all (otherwise.)

Yeah, I know they definitely have uses, just not for me, or at least not enough to make it worth the trouble and expense to replace them.

If they lasted for 100 years, I'd definitely have 'em, since there's no other real downside that I can see.

BillSWPA

09-09-2019, 08:11 PM

Hardly a day goes by when I do not find myself in light conditions that would make threat identification possible but seeing non-tritium sights difficult.

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JodyH

09-09-2019, 08:41 PM

Hardly a day goes by when I do not find myself in light conditions that would make threat identification possible but seeing non-tritium sights difficult.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Yes.
I often sit on the back porch with just the spot lights that light up the backyard and pasture turned on.
This illuminates the surrounding area great, while I sit way back in the dark shadows of the porch.
I can watch the foxes trot across the pasture 50Y away but almost have to feel around for my beverage due to the immediate surrounding darkness.

blues

09-09-2019, 08:58 PM

Just in from a walk with the dog. Took the 642 out and checked the sights with the 70 lumen setting on my headlamp. No issues seeing the painted orange front sight or putting it on target on various trees at different distances.

The biggest issue, due to the bright frame, was to make sure that the headlamp was, as discussed earlier, not aimed down but into the distance somewhat.

BillSWPA

09-09-2019, 09:24 PM

If one is concerned about the light being a target, wouldn’t a headlamp be the worst possible choice? Even put in the woods, wouldn’t 2 legged predators be one of the biggest concerns?

At least a handheld or WML can be turned on and off quickly.

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Vista461

09-09-2019, 10:16 PM

I don’t know about mandatory, but I don’t see any harm.
If you use any decently powerful WML, you can light up an area in a house with the gun at low ready. I know because I’ve done it often clearing houses.

I don’t have one on my current off duty guns, a shield 45 or M&P9c 1.0, but when I switch to an off duty gun that will accept a TLR1 HL, then I will carry one with a WML.

Vista461

09-09-2019, 10:19 PM

Not to point it at anyone unless they are a threat. I have seen too many LEO point a pistol at people in a car at night using the WML.

Maybe they needed to have guns pointed at them?

If not, then there is both a common sense and training issue there.

Duke

09-09-2019, 10:21 PM

42395

JBP55

09-10-2019, 05:06 AM

Maybe they needed to have guns pointed at them?

Wrong.

Rick62

09-10-2019, 05:41 AM

Wrong.

Well that leaves us with training/common sense issues; in which case the WML isn't the problem:confused:

Prdator

09-10-2019, 06:14 AM

I cant comfortably carry a WML AIWB so Im a no on that. I prefer a hand held for searching anyhow so that's how I roll.

Home gun yes WML but its a carbine so..

JodyH

09-10-2019, 07:48 AM

Tom Givens has a huge database on civilian defensive handgun shootings and last i heard his take on it was WML's were just not needed at all much less mandatory.
The basic gist of it was criminals need to see you to attack you, hence you can see them as well.

Texaspoff

09-10-2019, 08:24 AM

Pedestrian stop on a suspicious subject on a very dark street. No reason yet to have gun in hand. Lit guy up as he approached due to voice commands. A very typical "Hey, I need to talk to you a minute" situation. Bad guy turned out to have just done a robbery, our guy didn't know that. Bad guy pulled as he got close and came at the officer shooting.

Yes, I am saying that using a pistol mounted light to search a building is shitty tactics, even when you have other officers on scene. Handheld lights are a vastly better search tool. I don't care if you shoot better with two hands on the gun. It's not a gunfight yet, because you have no idea where in the fuck the potential bad guy is.

Typical cop "low light" training is range training. This leads to Good Idea Fairy bullshit that doesn't translate into the reality of the bad guy gets a vote in how well our tactics work.

Very Good Point, too many times controlled environment training is touted as the best thing since sliced bread and we should all be doing it.

Hand held light and shooting training is what I conduct with my officers. This type of stop occurs far more than just about anything else. This is also relevant in a traffic stop situation at night. Officer don't typically conduct traffic stops with their pistols pointed at the violator. Handheld lights are used a lot in those capacities. But when the SHTF, it happens quick, and being able to draw and hit a target with one hand must be a tool in our tool box.

I quite often refer to officers and our tactics advising we need to think of ourselves as gunfighters when this situation arises. There is no way to sugarcoat it or make it sound PC for the media or admin. I see my bosses cringe when they have attended training and we have discussions about this, but with a few examples of the old west gunfights, and their similarities with what happens today, they usually ease up.

I lost count of officer I have hit during active shooter training that were using their WML for searching. I have around a 95 percent hit rate shooting at the WML, and sims rounds get that point across very quickly. Since I was on the other end of that at one time, it is a tactic I use to train others and show them how bad it can be. Don't think for a minute that bad guys don't realize this stuff as well and some even admittedly train for this type of encounter, be it with LE or a civilian.

I had an administrator from another agency actually complain because we added a the words tactical reload to our cooperative training. He said it sounded harsh and thought someone would take issue with it, if they saw the curriculum. I explained to him, politely that tactical was a word used to describe so many aspects of training in LE, that he needs to write a letter to our state certification board advising them to stop using the word tactical in state mandated training. This of course is probably why in 25 plus years I have only made it to the rank of Sergeant......a few times....:)

TXPO