Knife & Pistol Employment Question - Benchmade SOCP

[37th Mass]

I read on another thread that one forum member's wife carries a Benchmade SOCP fixed blade dagger and likes it. I have read other good reviews of it in certain applications, and I am happy with other Benchmade knives that I have bought. However, when I looked at their suggested way to draw and hold the knife in conjunction with a pistol, it seems crazy to me. I am still a novice with a pistol and even less experienced with knife fighting, but I don't see the logic in this example:

http://www.benchmade.com/Images/Pr/Pdf/176_Molle_Extract.Pdf

I suppose they think that this would be a good way to switch to your knife when you run out of ammo in your pistol. Do they assume you won't have a second magazine? If you do have one, this seems like a great way to stab yourself in your weak hand during a reload.

Am I missing something?:confused:

[Chuck Haggard]

That is one of the very most F'd up things I have seen in awhile.

Falls somewhere between drum set and full retard.

[Ed L]

The knife was designed by Gregg Thompson who is a Black belt in BJJ and several other arts and is an MMA instructor who is involved with the Army's Special Operations Combatives Program http://www.ussocp.com/

Now, I'm not that much of a knife guy, but going by the pictures of holding the knife while employing the pistol, a few things stick in my head:

1. If you are needing to transition to or draw your sidearm, it would greatly slow up getting the gun into actiion to draw the knife first, if that is what they are suggesting.

2. Holding even a slim knife in your hand with your dominant hand is going to alter your grip on the handgun and ability to reach the trigger and likely throw off your shooting.

3. I'm not sure how you reload the gun with a knife sticking out of the bottom of your gun hand without stabbing yourself in the hand presenting the magazine to the magazine well.

The answer to this may be something simple and obvious that I don't understand.

[Shadow2]

I can see that as a good last ditch knife or a good knife to hide on your vest. Something that you can have your hand on while talking to people. For example, My last tour in Astan we dealt with a lot of local farmers and spent a lot of time in NDS, ANA, ANP compounds and government offices. Despite my heated objections having my hand on my rifle, pistol or knife were frowned upon. So while everybody saw me not having my hands on my rifle, pistol or large strider on my belt. They never saw my M.O.B FOS with 5 inch blade that hid underneath my plate carrier about centerline. So in that capacity I see this knife being useful. But definitely not in conjunction with a hand gat.

[JRL]

Perhaps this is a good example of something that can be done, but should not be done?

[Kimura]

I read on another thread that one forum member's wife carries a Benchmade SOCP fixed blade dagger and likes it. I have read other good reviews of it in certain applications, and I am happy with other Benchmade knives that I have bought. However, when I looked at their suggested way to draw and hold the knife in conjunction with a pistol, it seems crazy to me. I am still a novice with a pistol and even less experienced with knife fighting, but I don't see the logic in this example:

http://www.benchmade.com/Images/Pr/Pdf/176_Molle_Extract.Pdf

I suppose they think that this would be a good way to switch to your knife when you run out of ammo in your pistol. Do they assume you won't have a second magazine? If you do have one, this seems like a great way to stab yourself in your weak hand during a reload.

Am I missing something?:confused:

Yeah, I think what you're missing is that the knife is deployed prior to the gun because of a close threat. It's used to make space, dispatch a foe etc. It saves time to go straight to the handgun with the knife still in your hand. If the knife has a small enough grip, I think the interference with how your grip your handgun will be minimal and, more to the point, the other options take longer than you may have in a CQB situation. I'm guessing and though I've never trained with this particular individual, this is what makes the most sense to me. Two things; since I'm guessing this is for time saving in a CQB situation, the distances would be relatively short, in a building with rooms let's say, so balancing grip vs time tells me that grip can be slightly sacrificed at relatively short room sized distances and still make good hits on target. Second, I don't believe reloads apply to this as it looks like a quick dispatch situation where you're dealing with the immediacy of this threat and the possibility of another happening quickly, if that makes sense,

Again, I'm guessing, but this is what makes the most sense to me.

[Al T.]

Kimura, I think you've hit the nail on the head. But. If I'm in a fur ball with multiple close in bad guys, I'm probably more concerned with getting my long distance hole puncher secured and making noise. When I was over seas and working with the locals, my fixed blade was accessible on the opposite side of my M9.

[JeffJ]

I've admittedly not given this much thought and have not BTDT, nor am I a ninja - but, I'm thinking that if I'm in a situation that is so F'd up that I can't get to my pistol and go to knife first then try to transition to pistol that I'll probably just drop the knife. It seems like a very remote situation to develop hardware and technique for - if you are that clsoe and nasty and possibly shooting from retention or ending up wrestling around it looks like a great way to stab yourself.

[WDW]

That looks like an ass ended version of the Laserlyte pistol bayonet. IMHO, that seems like a horribly stupid idea. If you wanna carry a gun, carry a gun. If you want a knife, carry a knife. If you want both, carry both. But don't carry a gun-knife.

[rob_s]

The SOCP is intended to get someone off of you when you can't get to your gun. What the graphic is showing is exactly as Kimura describes, which is two separate processes. First draw the SOCP and use it to "make space" and then draw your pistol if it's still needed. Is it less-than-ideal when it comes time to change mags? yes, but it's simply A option, not THE way. All they are showing is that if you do have the SOCP in your hand and need to go for your pistol it can be done with minimal interference, unlike a knife with a traditional handle.

[secondstoryguy]

I have played with one of these (training version)in hands-on FOF training. They work for their intended purpose, specifically to get someone the hell off you and transition to a weapon without having to deal(put away or throw down)with the knife after using it. Although I train to grab my knife with my non-dominant hand leaving my dominant hand for my pistol, you don't always get to make that choice and this is the problem this knife solves. I believe knives(especially fixed blade) in general can be a great complimentary tool to a handgun. Sometimes a knife is a much better tool than a pistol for getting out of a clutch/tie up situation. I like that the SOCP has a clip and is versatile as far as where you can carry it. The ring/hole in the knife is a little hard to hit in a fast and furious attack but it works and shooting with it in the hand isn't that bad. My main complaint with it is the clip is too "slick" and doesn't always catch on what you clip it too. They need to add a clip like the guy at Bladerigs (http://www.bladerigs.com/)puts in his sheaths which has a small catch on the clip anchoring it to what it's clipped to. Overall, I like my Clinch pick more for this kind of thing as it's quicker to get into action as well as being legal in most states. If I was overseas and going unannounced into a lot of houses I might have a SOCP knife on my plate carrier.

[Wondering Beard]

Caveat, I'm no SME on knives, knife fighting, transitions to and fro from and gun etc ..

The concept as Kimura put it is essentially sound as I understand it. The idea of being able to transition, depending on time and distance, between knife and gun (especially from a knife "get off me" position to one where "fire and maneuver", for lack of a better expression, is more practical) is good.

The 'How' is something that is nowhere near as studied, and thus has nowhere near the established techniques, as it could be.

For these transitions, I have found (through personal practice and study only) that having a ring at the bottom of the grip is really helpful as you can hang on to your knife as you use another tool (or need your hands to do something else).

Personally, I like using a karambit in forward grip for these purposes. I'm no expert on all the fine twirling and spinning and passing techniques of that knife; to me it's a claw and I use it like that. Still, with the little finger of my left hand through the ring (I'm a right handed pistol shooter), I find that if I just open my left hand, let the knife dangle from my pinky, and go for my pistol, I can draw and shoot two handed with nearly the same efficiency as without the knife in hand, I can reload pretty smoothly and I can go back to using the knife with little difficulty.

From "get off me" to engaging with a gun, a knife with a ring in the handle offers a lot of practical possibilities.

[Ed L]

Thanks, guys.

It looks like an interesting knife in that you could be wearing it in an inside the pants sheath with just the ring sticking out above the belt. Most people wouldn't recognize it as a knife.

I can certainly see the value of it as a close range knife that can be easily accessed, but was unsure about integrating it into use with a handgun.

Is the knife double edged?

[rob_s]

ed, I thought the exact same thing and bought it because of that, but at least in my case what I found was that having only the ring sticking up above the beltline meant way to much poking me below the beltline. I tried it appendix carry strong and weak side, with the point facing in both directions, for a total of 4 carry position/orientations and couldn't find a single one that I could live with. Some have suggested having a traditional sheath made for it with more of the handle sticking out but if I was going that route I'd probably just buy a traditional knife.

It is sharp on both sides, but only about 1/3-1/2 of the way back from the tip.

[Ed L]

Thanks for your first hand appraisal, Rob.

Also, as a double edged knife it is illegal to carry in TX. The knife that is the subject of this thread would be classified as a dirk or stiletto. I don't remember the exact classification or level of illegality, but it could result in loosing my carry permit or even the loss of the ability to legally buy firearms.

So much for thoughts I had about carrying that knife.

[will_1400]

I read on another thread that one forum member's wife carries a Benchmade SOCP fixed blade dagger and likes it. I have read other good reviews of it in certain applications, and I am happy with other Benchmade knives that I have bought. However, when I looked at their suggested way to draw and hold the knife in conjunction with a pistol, it seems crazy to me. I am still a novice with a pistol and even less experienced with knife fighting, but I don't see the logic in this example:

http://www.benchmade.com/Images/Pr/Pdf/176_Molle_Extract.Pdf

I suppose they think that this would be a good way to switch to your knife when you run out of ammo in your pistol. Do they assume you won't have a second magazine? If you do have one, this seems like a great way to stab yourself in your weak hand during a reload.

Am I missing something?:confused:

Naked Snake called: he wants royalties for his idea...

[JodyH]

I'm not a fan of juggling and shooting.
Whether it's a flashlight or a knife I'm trying to utilize while shooting I prefer to separate things and shoot one handed and manipulate with the other hand.
If I have to cut someone off me to make space, I'll do that then drop the knife and go to the gun.
I just don't see any advantage in trying to hang on to everything.
And that knife sticking out the bottom of the gun looks like trouble if you "autopilot" into a immediate action malfunction clearance or reload.
There are numerous cases of people getting into shootings and reloading with no conscious thought.
Bad mojo with that spike sticking out the bottom of your gun.

[37th Mass]

Thanks for the replies folks. I still find aspects of the knife appealing for other reasons, but I don't think I will employ that 'knife & gun in same hand' tactic. At least not unless I can get some high speed/low drag knife training…

[SGT_Calle]

Something about the knife drew me in as well. I'm a benchmade fan and carry an auto daily. I jumped on this one mostly out of cool-factor and some sort of interest I can't put my finger on.
I wear mine in uniform (ACUs) almost daily, weak side appendix. I just think its a very interesting knife

[F-Trooper05]

Looks like Soldiersystems was following this thread...

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/04/16/soc-p-knife-getting-it-into-action-2/

[Dropkick]

Looks like Soldiersystems was following this thread...

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/04/16/soc-p-knife-getting-it-into-action-2/

Serpa Holster and all!

[JodyH]

Looks like Soldiersystems was following this thread...

http://soldiersystems.net/2012/04/16/soc-p-knife-getting-it-into-action-2/
"Greg designed this knife from direct input from THE most elite soldiers in the world. Operational experience built this knife. Thousands of entries into really bad buildings in IZ and AF. It was not dreamed up by video gamers, not range commandos, not cops. Assaulters at the highest level, who have been blind sided and tackled while clearing nasty places were the driving input for this knife."

Hyperbole much?

[Jay Cunningham]

I would wind up stabbing myself I think.

[JodyH]

I would wind up stabbing myself I think.
I know I would.
A man's got to know his limitations.

[Wondering Beard]

I would wind up stabbing myself I think.

Holding the knife in reverse grip, it's awful easy to do.

[rob_s]

you never really own a knife until it draws first blood, and 99% of the time that first blood is yours. :p

[Chuck Haggard]

"Greg designed this knife from direct input from THE most elite soldiers in the world. Operational experience built this knife. Thousands of entries into really bad buildings in IZ and AF. It was not dreamed up by video gamers, not range commandos, not cops. Assaulters at the highest level, who have been blind sided and tackled while clearing nasty places were the driving input for this knife."

Hyperbole much?


"...,not cops."

Back in the day when most of the really cool guy snake eaters wanted to learn hostage rescue they went to who to learn how to do it?

Anyway, I've played with similar ideas before, and I still think it's a soup sandwich.

A knife that I know was designed and used by actual cool guys would be this one (the first one I saw was handmade and being carried by Ken Good back in the SureFire Institute days);

http://www.crkt.com/Hissatsu

[ghettomedic]

A knife that I know was designed and used by actual cool guys would be this one (the first one I saw was handmade and being carried by Ken Good back in the SureFire Institute days);

http://www.crkt.com/Hissatsu


I know that is MSG Paul Howe's choice of close-quarters steel. That should speak volumes.

[Wondering Beard]

you never really own a knife until it draws first blood, and 99% of the time that first blood is yours. :p

Really?

Whatever gave you that idea?

:p

[GD4]

I attended a Kyle Defoor two day pistol class where there was quite a bit of talk and a few demo's of employing a small knife in a tight situation. He went into a lot of detail on what to look for in one and was carrying a Tracker Dan Bloodshark.

The key points being it easy to conceal and easy of use from either hand from the carry position. The custom made sheath for the Blood shark was also a huge talking point of the knife. He also mentioned a few off the shelf knives that could be modded to allow for ease of use and concealment.

Kyle was getting half second draws and hits with his knife during the class, and it was defiantly and eye opener for those of us in the class that thought we were ok just carrying a folder.

The biggest turn off for the SOCP I can see is the loop.

I have linked a few of the threads discussing the Bloodshark below.

http://www.firearmstrainingandtactics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1665

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=95063

[Mitchell, Esq.]

This knife has so much "suck" on it that I'm disappointed Benchmade had anything to do with it.

At least spyderco has the decency to hire legit instructors for their martial blade craft line.

[vmi-mo]

Ive got several guys rocking these blades. I think the fill a niche as a "get the fuck off me blade". They are all keeping them in their plate carriers, strong side between the front and side plate.

We have done some rolling with them and they are quite accessible in fight.

They are low profile and do not draw attention.

They are easy to establish and maintain a reverse grip (point down) grip on.

Overall its light, can be easily/securley attached with zip ties and gives guys one more layer in their offense.