Real world gun grapple

[Cecil Burch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA8J5uiDn6I&fbclid=IwAR1c54vP-CTuyj8_OsQf_d71oShlJo8rg5x6_Ft9iGDmknBidlcrXn6A04I


This is a tough video to watch, not so much for the actual outcome since the deputy came out alright, but for what could have been a far worse and more violent ending. However, it is an incredibly important video to view, because it so succinctly illustrates a point I, Paul Sharp, Craig Douglas and a (very) few others have been screeching about for over fifteen years.

It does not matter who brings the gun to the fight. The person who controls the entanglement owns the gun. Period. It does not matter how fast or accurate you are, what kind of holster you run, or how awesome the gunsmithing that has been done to the pistol. None of that matters if you cannot win an entangled fight.

Watch how the deputy has zero control over what is going on. The criminal dictates every single thing that happens, including where it moves to, and when or if it goes to the ground. Then take careful note of when the deputy brings the pistol into the altercation, and how immediately the attacker snatches it away. The attacker had complete control and it was literally like taking candy from a baby. The deputy was utterly helpless. The only thing that saved her life was either luck that the gun malfunctioned , and that the attacker after he got the gun turned down his intensity and drive and seemed to slow down his movements and did not aggressively pursue her. The deputy had nothing else on her side because all she could do at that moment was run.

Think about this video the next time you hear someone say something along the lines of “if you try to wrestle me, I will just shoot you” or that the way to beat the jiu-jitsu practitioner or other grappler is to just get a weapon out. Would it have mattered what weapon was introduced there? Would a knife, a sap, or OC spray matter at all in that moment? The answer is simple. No, the outcome would have been the same. What gun centric people fail to realize is that getting a weapon out is a fairly obvious thing in general, and if the other person is so dominating the fight that your only solution is to go to the tool, then they will see it with plenty of time to take advantage and assume the control of it. You may get it out and be able to use it. After all, the Hail Mary pass in football does work. Well, at least once in blue moon. Not exactly the kind of odds I prefer to stake my life on.

[blues]

I think the same holds true, in terms of it being a "crap shoot", for most L.E. scrambles, male or female. How many videos have we seen over the years of officers over matched either by the skill or aggression of the violator, or being overcome by fear and freezing?

If I'm honest, I have to admit that though I came out of my own on the job altercations unscathed it was a combination of will, some skill and more than a little luck. Any of them could have gone wrong with just a momentary visit from Mr. Murphy. But they didn't and I'm happy in hindsight to reflect on them from time to time.

In a perfect world all LEOs, military and good citizens would be capable, hard to kill combatants. I don't see that as happening anytime soon.

"There but for the grace of God go I" has crossed my mind many a time over the years, and many better men and women have suffered an undeserved fate at the hands of wretches like the one in the video above.

[willie]

Having worked with juvenile and adult offenders, I observed that some from both groups were incredibly strong. Some adult offenders can break handcuffs by stripping them. Once I saw one man of average size break leg irons as well as handcuffs. And then there are a few who can kick down steel doors of segregation cells. Correctional staff handle these people by employing groups of men against them. But who first encountered these offenders on the street? Some cop, of course. The deputy in the video faced a strong, agile adversary driven by rage. Mismatch is an appropriate term. The offender had a deadly mix: strength, agility, and rage. I'm restating the obvious but ask what procedure should the deputy have followed to avoid this outcome.

[GardoneVT]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yA8J5uiDn6I&fbclid=IwAR1c54vP-CTuyj8_OsQf_d71oShlJo8rg5x6_Ft9iGDmknBidlcrXn6A04I


This is a tough video to watch, not so much for the actual outcome since the deputy came out alright, but for what could have been a far worse and more violent ending. However, it is an incredibly important video to view, because it so succinctly illustrates a point I, Paul Sharp, Craig Douglas and a (very) few others have been screeching about for over fifteen years.

It does not matter who brings the gun to the fight. The person who controls the entanglement owns the gun. Period. It does not matter how fast or accurate you are, what kind of holster you run, or how awesome the gunsmithing that has been done to the pistol.

It’d be easy to say the deputy should have gotten additional unarmed combatives training. It would be even easier to state her mindset wasn’t in the fight from the word go and it showed.

But what’s tougher to admit is there’s always someone bigger, badder, and more skilled then you out there. What happened to her could easily happen to any of us...regardless of training resume. Someone way smarter then me said something that’s stuck since; you can’t train your way out of bad luck.

[Chain]

Interesting to see him using the wrist tie to tee off from.

[willie]

Serious question. At what point could she have justifiably shot him?

[45dotACP]

I forget who I heard it from, but there was a BJJ phrase that went something to the effect of "once you get punched in the face, your purple belt becomes a blue belt and your blue belt becomes a white belt"

Good thing the deputy is alive. She definitely had luck on her side there.

As far as institutional problems...I think it is probably very difficult to learn how to fight in a basic seminar or class. Do police academy DT classes actually include full resistance, full contact drilling or sparring?

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[Paul Sharp]

I forget who I heard it from, but there was a BJJ phrase that went something to the effect of "once you get punched in the face, your purple belt becomes a blue belt and your blue belt becomes a white belt"...

Carlson Gracie Sr.

Regarding the deputies actions. Some sort of cover to deal with the strikes the were incoming. Some sort of knowledge of hand fighting as there was zero control of the opponents hands. Some knowledge of the timing window as it pertains to In-Fight Weapon Access.

Also of note, the opponent knew how to fix the malfunction...

[45dotACP]

Carlson Gracie Sr.

Regarding the deputies actions. Some sort of cover to deal with the strikes the were incoming. Some sort of knowledge of hand fighting as there was zero control of the opponents hands. Some knowledge of the timing window as it pertains to In-Fight Weapon Access.

Also of note, the opponent knew how to fix the malfunction...

Ah, well then I definitely read it and not heard it haha.

So, out of curiosity, are the above suggestions what you'd consider the most basic fundamentals of martial arts and do you feel like they represent the way you'd train someone would be different if you knew they were going into harm's way next week? Are you there other skills you'd add on if you knew they were going into harm's way, but in 6 months or a year?

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[BehindBlueI's]

As far as institutional problems...I think it is probably very difficult to learn how to fight in a basic seminar or class. Do police academy DT classes actually include full resistance, full contact drilling or sparring?


Ours did when padded up. There is very little in the way of ongoing training, though. There is a "combatives club" that some officers belong to but it's sparsely attended for a few reasons, not least of which is lack of interest. Even if interested there's the fact that it's not on duty so if you're injured it's not going to be treated like an on duty injury. You'll have to use your own sick time, pay for your own treatment, etc. It's also not terribly convenient as far as location and hours for a lot of officers.

My hand to hand is sub-par. I get away with what I do because I'm a bit larger than average, have no qualms about starting as soon as I see pre-attack indicators, and am pretty successful at using the limited number of techniques I do bring at a subconscious level. There's plenty of folks, both here and on the street, that would clean my clock in anything resembling a fair fight.

[Totem Polar]

Also of note, the opponent knew how to fix the malfunction...

TBH, that was the most unexpected/novel takeaway from the vid, for me.

[GardoneVT]

TBH, that was the most unexpected/novel takeaway from the vid, for me.
Bad guys can YouTube gun vids too.

Meanwhile, a state trooper nearly broke my carry 1911 during a routine traffic stop. He kept trying to pull the cocked and locked slide back without flipping the safety first, which made for the most awkward traffic stop of my life. What the heck do you do when the trooper spends 10 minutes furtively jerking the slide of your Colt XSE and then stares at the gun like a possessed demon? I had to gently inform him of the safety and it’s deactivation.

Even if LE agencies quail at the thought of advanced gun training, the offenders aren’t so inhibited.

[Totem Polar]

Bad guys can YouTube gun vids too.


For sure; all the info is out there. That said, this means our guy was either highly motivated to increase his own danger quotient, as a habit, or had training from past work that he retained beyond the level of the average joe—for reasons important to him. Combine that info with the fact that he had no compunctions about controlling a female officer’s hands and body, and punching her in the face, and it quickly becomes apparent that the officer in the vid met her “Todd” that day.

It’s cool for aspiring "Todds" to cut up the encounter and learn from it. Good use of the footage. But, unless future officers—including the one in the video—want to travel down the Todd path themselves, there is no fixing the fact that some bad actors completely outclass the authorities in capability. This was one clear example.


PS. For anyone reasonably new to P-F, a footnoted 2012 rabbit hole thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4551-Who-are-you-training-to-fight

[45dotACP]

TBH, that was the most unexpected/novel takeaway from the vid, for me.I once heard a dude in a gun shop say that you can't learn to shoot really well unless you have an instructor.

I've seen a huge number of self taught shooters who were phenoms. Not the least of whom is a dude named Ben Stoeger.

UFC phenom Jon Jones was said to be a largely self taught striker...watched videos on YouTube and taught himself how to throw punches and kicks. I think he's since received some high level instruction and he was a collegiate wrestler well before that, but still.

With that 99 percent of perspiration, you only really need that one percent of inspiration. And the internet is a useful place to find it.

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[GardoneVT]

Even The Hulk himself got checked.


https://youtu.be/kO5WPKT0690[HR]

[JohnVee]

One of the things that also came out with this situation was this deputy's social media account along with her public media relations. I'm not particularly against that but it's worth mentioning.

[AKDoug]

For sure; all the info is out there. That said, this means our guy was either highly motivated to increase his own danger quotient, as a habit, or had training from past work that he retained beyond the level of the average joe—for reasons important to him. Combine that info with the fact that he had no compunctions about controlling a female officer’s hands and body, and punching her in the face, and it quickly becomes apparent that the officer in the vid met her “Todd” that day.

It’s cool for aspiring "Todds" to cut up the encounter and learn from it. Good use of the footage. But, unless future officers—including the one in the video—want to travel down the Todd path themselves, there is no fixing the fact that some bad actors completely outclass the authorities in capability. This was one clear example.


PS. For anyone reasonably new to P-F, a footnoted 2012 rabbit hole thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4551-Who-are-you-training-to-fight Speaking of bad actors.. All I want to know from that linked thread is if GOP became a world class shooter?

[Ben RBC]

Funny how it all boils down to control...