Detonics STX - striker fired polymer 1911

[spyderco monkey]

Does anyone know what ever became of this design? I know Detonics was a hit or miss brand, but the STX was a seriously cool pistol design. Essentially a Striker Fired 2011 for $1000.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56f1afc1044262c53cf48dc5/1461095066592-9PAHKJ9IBFKHEJABQSAY/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kEKrO9UYS4FmySKavfW9pPx7gQa3H7 8H3Y0txjaiv_0fYiipkZ87xgDekDUjSlg8vh7zj8da1mEuzfTk VZrXXq0NDPIMYUqMpyMYI20OdjP7OqpeNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1UU 2FFljqjy7hf0ixLXa6yaKKLz48Z8lH2MLQY745oijwFlq8oZZw hhoTbTOjCpwBwg/image-asset.jpeg?format=1500w

http://detonicsdef.squarespace.com/stx

-modular tactical frame, designed to accept 4 barrel/slide lengths, as well as a full size or compact grip.
-striker fired trigger that also maintains the short length of pull and crispness commonly found on a single action trigger system.

If a company made a version of the STX that took Glock mags, I think they'd be printing money. Rather then debate Glock vs 1911, this would combine the best of both into one pistol.

I'm actually pretty surprised that a company hasn't come out with a striker fired SAO pistol with a 1911 style sliding trigger.

[MattyD380]

I remember seeing that. I also remember seeing something to the effect that the military was considering a similar design for what's now the M-17?

But, yeah... it crossed my mind too. It was neat.

[RevolverRob]

Detonics paired with STI to attempt to market this piece during the XM17 MHS trials. STI hired a CEO who had previously procured .MIL contracts with other companies.

Gun never made it out of the first round of testing under the solicitation.

Multiple reasons - reliability, production capabilities of STI, etc.

As for a double-stack, striker fired, 9mm with ergonomics of a 1911 - well it didn’t work for Hudson.

—

[spyderco monkey]

Detonics paired with STI to attempt to market this piece during the XM17 MHS trials. STI hired a CEO who had previously procured .MIL contracts with other companies.

Gun never made it out of the first round of testing under the solicitation.

Multiple reasons - reliability, production capabilities of STI, etc.

As for a double-stack, striker fired, 9mm with ergonomics of a 1911 - well it didn’t work for Hudson.

—

Thats a bummer.

As for Hudson, I think if they had started out as a polymer frame that took Glock mags, they would have sold more then enough to stay afloat.

Small company + metal frame + proprietary $44 mags kept me on the sidelines for the Hudson, despite really liking the concept.

Pretty much anything that takes Glock mags will find an audience; we need only look at the failure of the original Ruger PC9 vs the smash success of the new Ruger PC9 that takes Glock mags.

[BillSWPA]

The magazines of Sig’s P365 are expensive, and Sig seems to sell as many of these guns as they can make.

I like the idea of combining the best of Glock with the best of 1911, but a few different attempts to do so have failed.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MGW]

What killed Hudson was lack of reliability.

[RAM Engineer]

I guess we ended up with the Staccato, G45, etc. , so it all turned out all right.

[Nephrology]

Gross

[RevolverRob]

Thats a bummer.

As for Hudson, I think if they had started out as a polymer frame that took Glock mags, they would have sold more then enough to stay afloat.

Small company + metal frame + proprietary $44 mags kept me on the sidelines for the Hudson, despite really liking the concept.

Pretty much anything that takes Glock mags will find an audience; we need only look at the failure of the original Ruger PC9 vs the smash success of the new Ruger PC9 that takes Glock mags.

No big company would willingly use someone else's intellectual property if they could avoid it. One of the reasons Glock updates magazines regularly is to refresh IP. the Ruger PC9 comes with an interchangeable magazine well to support Glock magazines. You'll note it doesn't come with Glock magazines, because Ruger would have to pay Glock to sell their magazines.

The SilencerCo Maxim9 that uses Glock magazines ships with Magpul magazines for the same reason.

The Hudson didn't actually use a proprietary magazine, I thought it did at first and folks here corrected me. It used Mec-Gar made 3rd Gen Smith and Wesson magazines, like those for a 5906. Baseplates were just Hudson marked.


What killed Hudson was lack of reliability.

Yes and no. The no part is...they were basically screwed financially. At the bankruptcy hearing in April revealed that Hudson is about 12 million bucks in the hole. No wonder they couldn't get anyone to bite on buying them out, a Hudson H9 made of polymer, aluminum, and steel could not recover 12 million bucks in profit for at least a decade. No investor wants to wait 10+ years to recover even 1% of their investment. Not when they can recover 3-10% in a year depending on what they do. And the break-even point for Hudson had to be at least 7-years out assuming little-to-no manufacturing growth.

They were way over-extended financially before the first deliveries hit the shelves. You expect to be in the red at first, but a path to breaking-even and then profiting should be your 3-year plan. In the case of Hudson, they've admitted that they did not believe they would turn a profit until 10-years in. There is no way you can ride private goods in a highly competitive market to profitability over a 10-year period without subsidy. That subsidy can come through private investment, public investment, or .gov contracts - but it has to come from somewhere.

Hudson was either planning on scrimping by until they were bought out, or they thought they could land contracts somewhere, or they really had no plan. Given they had no one on payroll who had experience in .MIL or LE acquisitions they clearly weren't serious about path 2. I suspect they were hoping for path 1, but really were on path 3 from the word go.

[spyderco monkey]

No big company would willingly use someone else's intellectual property if they could avoid it. One of the reasons Glock updates magazines regularly is to refresh IP. the Ruger PC9 comes with an interchangeable magazine well to support Glock magazines. You'll note it doesn't come with Glock magazines, because Ruger would have to pay Glock to sell their magazines.

The SilencerCo Maxim9 that uses Glock magazines ships with Magpul magazines for the same

At this point the Glock mag is the AR mag of 9x19. It's an open source mag available from multiple manufacturers. And like the AR mag, nearly everyone already has some.

I'd argue this very proliferation of Glock mags is also a core part of Glocks ability to fend off competing pistols, despite these new designs being cheaper, better ergonomics, and better triggers.

CZ designed the P10c to use most Glock holsters. But if they actually wanted a chance at being a viable Glock competitor, they should have designed it to take G19 mags and sights. I know I would have bought one.Whereas the prospect of buying 10-20x new $35-44 mags has kept me out of most new pistol designs.

Rifle manufacturers have learned to standardize on AR mags if they want any traction in the US market. Pistol manufacturers would be very wise to heed this lesson.

[RevolverRob]

At this point the Glock mag is the AR mag of 9x19. It's an open source mag available from multiple manufacturers. And like the AR mag, nearly everyone already has some.

It's not open source if you have to lease the intellectual property to build one. The Magpul and ETS designs are effectively proprietary in their own right.


I'd argue this very proliferation of Glock mags is also a core part of Glocks ability to fend off competing pistols, despite these new designs being cheaper, better ergonomics, and better triggers.

I would argue Glock's continued market dominance has to do with both their ability to compete for and win LE and military contracts, that their price point has stayed almost flat, and historical inertia. Agencies are loathe to change anything that seems to work fine.



CZ designed the P10c to use most Glock holsters. But if they actually wanted a chance at being a viable Glock competitor, they should have designed it to take G19 mags and sights. I know I would have bought one. Whereas the prospect of buying 10-20x new $35-44 mags has kept me out of most new pistol designs.

While I understand what you're driving at, the reality is again, needing to license proprietary magazine design from Glock or sell a product with sub-par magazines and sub-par reliability. That's not a good winning formula for a product. Also, companies want to make the money on the accessories, they have a higher profit margin than guns do. From a financial perspective...it doesn't make sense to pay someone else license fees and lose profit by not making your own accessories.


Rifle manufacturers have learned to standardize on AR mags if they want any traction in the US market. Pistol manufacturers would be very wise to heed this lesson.

Those aren't comparable. The AR15 magazine is a shared design underneath a NATO Draft Standard Agreement (hence STANAG). That is a set of specifications that are open source in many respects. The Glock magazine is not a STANAG design, neither is the Beretta M9/92x, the XM17 magazine, etc. They are all proprietary to their platforms and designs.

[spyderco monkey]

It's not open source if you have to lease the intellectual property to build one. The Magpul and ETS designs are effectively proprietary in their own right.


While I understand what you're driving at, the reality is again, needing to license proprietary magazine design from Glock or sell a product with sub-par magazines and sub-par reliability. That's not a good winning formula for a product. Also, companies want to make the money on the accessories, they have a higher profit margin than guns do. From a financial perspective...it doesn't make sense to pay someone else license fees and lose profit by not making your own accessories.


They don't need to pay license fees to use Glock compatible magazines; If the Hudson 2.0 ships with a Magpul/ETS/KCI Glock style magazine, they don't have to pay a dime to their Austrian overlords.

Many manufacturers already make Glock mag compatible weapons:
-B&T
-Ruger
-KelTec
-MPA
-Lone Wolf
-Polymer 80
-ZEV
-Shadow systems
-CMMG
-Like a dozen different 9x19 AR variants

Likewise, most proprietary mags are not made by the firearms manufacturer, but by MecGar. In that sense, buying Magpul or KCI etc 'Glock' mags at wholesale is really no different then using MecGar as the OEM.

While there certainly is money to be made selling proprietary mags, there would be a lot more overall pistol sales for these Glock competitors if they took Glock mags. They could even raise their prices for their pistols, and still sell more; If there was a choice between a $420 CZ P10C or a $520 P10'G' that took Glock mags, my money is on the P10G far outselling the C despite their higher price.

Likewise, if someone makes an aftermarket P320 Grip frame that allows it to take Glock mags, there would be a lot more interest in that platform.

A notable parallel would be the 1911 market - all the single stack 1911's all use the same magazines regardless of manufacturer. 1911 companies are not making proprietary single stack mags to cash in on the aftermarket, because pistol sales would tank.

[AKDoug]

They don't need to pay license fees to use Glock compatible magazines; If the Hudson 2.0 ships with a Magpul/ETS/KCI Glock style magazine, they don't have to pay a dime to their Austrian overlords.

Many manufacturers already make Glock mag compatible weapons:
-B&T
-Ruger
-KelTec
-MPA
-Lone Wolf
-Polymer 80
-ZEV
-Shadow systems
-CMMG
-Like a dozen different 9x19 AR variants

Likewise, most proprietary mags are not made by the firearms manufacturer, but by MecGar. In that sense, buying Magpul or KCI etc 'Glock' mags at wholesale is really no different then using MecGar as the OEM.

While there certainly is money to be made selling proprietary mags, there would be a lot more overall pistol sales for these Glock competitors if they took Glock mags. They could even raise their prices for their pistols, and still sell more; If there was a choice between a $420 CZ P10C or a $520 P10'G' that took Glock mags, my money is on the P10G far outselling the C despite their higher price.

Likewise, if someone makes an aftermarket P320 Grip frame that allows it to take Glock mags, there would be a lot more interest in that platform.

A notable parallel would be the 1911 market - all the single stack 1911's all use the same magazines regardless of manufacturer. 1911 companies are not making proprietary single stack mags to cash in on the aftermarket, because pistol sales would tank.

If manufacturers made their striker fired plastic pistols able to take Glock mags, I would be way more inclined to try a new pistol. As it is, my only deviation from Glock has been to Shadow Systems because I am heavily invested in Glock mags.

[Pistol Pete 10]

A 1911 gun has a hammer. Don't know why anyone would call it a 1911. It's more like a Glock.

[spyderco monkey]

A 1911 gun has a hammer. Don't know why anyone would call it a 1911. It's more like a Glock.

It has the most important feature of the 1911 - the sliding single action trigger.

Thats the core aspect of the 1911 that people are after.

[RevolverRob]

They don't need to pay license fees to use Glock compatible magazines; If the Hudson 2.0 ships with a Magpul/ETS/KCI Glock style magazine, they don't have to pay a dime to their Austrian overlords.

Many manufacturers already make Glock mag compatible weapons:
-B&T
-Ruger
-KelTec
-MPA
-Lone Wolf
-Polymer 80
-ZEV
-Shadow systems
-CMMG
-Like a dozen different 9x19 AR variants

You’re mixing platforms. Lone Wolf, Zev, Shadow Systems all make reframed Glocks. Not wholly new handguns that use Glock magazines.




Likewise, most proprietary mags are not made by the firearms manufacturer, but by MecGar. In that sense, buying Magpul or KCI etc 'Glock' mags at wholesale is really no different then using MecGar as the OEM.

Except the quality difference.



While there certainly is money to be made selling proprietary mags, there would be a lot more overall pistol sales for these Glock competitors if they took Glock mags. They could even raise their prices for their pistols, and still sell more; If there was a choice between a $420 CZ P10C or a $520 P10'G' that took Glock mags, my money is on the P10G far outselling the C despite their higher price.

Likewise, if someone makes an aftermarket P320 Grip frame that allows it to take Glock mags, there would be a lot more interest in that platform.

I would take that bet. I’m not sure if you’ve ever sold guns or worked in purchasing for a gunstore - but the cheaper product outsells the more expensive one. Most buyers aren’t you or me. They are looking for cheap things. Hell most buyers don’t even buy extra spare magazines.

And the P320 seems to be selling fine. And will continue to do so, due to the MHS Contract.

Glock continues to hold market share because of contracts, acceptable quality, and historical inertia. No one is going to “out Glock” Glock. Appeasing the miniscule market of gun owners who own lots of Glock magazines is a losing proposition financially.



A notable parallel would be the 1911 market - all the single stack 1911's all use the same magazines regardless of manufacturer. 1911 companies are not making proprietary single stack mags to cash in on the aftermarket, because pistol sales would tank.

Kind of - except no one considers factory 1911 magazines to be superior to aftermarket, unless you’re buying a Wilson Combat. The opposite is true for Glock, everyone considers the OE magazine to be superior to aftermarket options.

And there are several proprietary magazine 1911-pattern guns out there. The Springfield EMP series is the first thst pops to mind.

—

There are some other engineering issues with using the Glock magazine in a 1911-sized/shaped pistol. The angle of the column means the trigger bow would be slanted as opposed to straight. This will change the geometry interaction with the sear affecting trigger pull. As a result, it changes feed angle and barrel lockup.

Several folks have tried, but no one has made it work. There is simply a packaging problem for putting a trigger bow- that produces the straight back pull, around a Glock magazine. This is why Hudson opted for the 3rd Gen smith mag, which has less pronounced angle to the magazine body. It’s why Wilson Combat opted for a Walther PPQ-derived magazine for the EDC9.

And it’s why a striker-fired “1911” using Glock magazines doesn’t actually exist. The Detonics STX used a modified version of an STI magazine.

By the by, if you haven’t compared the wall thickness of a Glock magazine to a 3rd Gen Smith and/or other metal bodied 9mm magazine - you should. The polymer mags are thicker, even when steel lined. Which also plays a role in getting a trigger bow around them. You can’t fit an STI bowed trigger over a Glock mag, even if the angle were changed. This means the whole gun needs to be fatter to handle the Glock mag.

—

Really again, I understand why you want such a thing, but it would ultimately by a pulsating sack of fail, because of the compromises necessary to make it work.

And really guys - new guns come with two or three mags. You can shoot a few matches with just three mags. Buy something new and try it, if you like it - then buy some more mags. If not, trade it off for another Glock. It’s okay to have different kinds of magazines.

[spyderco monkey]

You’re mixing platforms. Lone Wolf, Zev, Shadow Systems all make reframed Glocks. Not wholly new handguns that use Glock magazines.

Yes, but this goes to show there are no 'licensing fees' to use Glock mags in non-glock pistols.


Except the quality difference.

Right, but the 'P10G' or other Glock compatible pistol would just ship with 1x Glock style magazine, counting on the user to either already have a ready supply of Glock mags, or to just purchase more of whatever brand they prefer.


I would take that bet. I’m not sure if you’ve ever sold guns or worked in purchasing for a gunstore - but the cheaper product outsells the more expensive one. Most buyers aren’t you or me. They are looking for cheap things. Hell most buyers don’t even buy extra spare magazines.

But are these buyers of cheap things really buying the CZ P10 or Hudson H9 or Walther PPQ etc Glock alternatives?I suspect most of the sales for these non-Glock, non cheap (ie Ruger/Canik etc) pistols are being sold to the multiple gun owner.

And the P320 seems to be selling fine. And will continue to do so, due to the MHS Contract.

Right, but prior to winning the MHS contract, the P320 was not taking over the world. And winning the MHS contract is a one time event - its not a strategy that any other pistol can replicate. Leaving them to find alternate methods of drawing market share - of which Glock compatibility would be the simplest and most successful differentiator.

Glock continues to hold market share because of contracts, acceptable quality, and historical inertia. No one is going to “out Glock” Glock. Appeasing the miniscule market of gun owners who own lots of Glock magazines is a losing proposition financially.

I agree, no one is going to out Glock Glock. But that actually lends further support for other pistol companies to embrace the Glock mag compatibility - any pistol that takes Glock mags will be on the short list for a pistol purchase by existing Glock owners. And Glock mag compatibility will cut the legs from under the other Glock competitors out there that take proprietary mags. So while the 'P10G' would not replace the Glock 19 in popularity, it would absolutely dominate the P10C, PPQ, VP9, APX, etc and become a solid competitor as the '#2' pistol.


There are some other engineering issues with using the Glock magazine in a 1911-sized/shaped pistol. The angle of the column means the trigger bow would be slanted as opposed to straight. This will change the geometry interaction with the sear affecting trigger pull. As a result, it changes feed angle and barrel lockup.

Several folks have tried, but no one has made it work.

Has anyone tried to make a Glock mag 1911?


And really guys - new guns come with two or three mags. You can shoot a few matches with just three mags. Buy something new and try it, if you like it - then buy some more mags. If not, trade it off for another Glock. It’s okay to have different kinds of magazines.
The thing is, high capacity pistol mags will not be around forever; I would count ourselves very lucky if they are available 5 years from now. Which means that if I like a pistol, and plan to have it in the future, I'm going to be buying 10-20 mags for it, with the expectation that they may have to last me and my kids lifetimes.

And this is another thing recommending Glock mag compatibility. Post AWB/Mag Ban, Glock mags will be far and away the most widely available 'pre-ban' magazine, by a huge margin. If someone buys a post-ban pistol that takes Glock mags, they have a pretty good chance of snagging a few pre-bans to go with it. The odds of finding pre-ban CZP10 mags.... much less.

Further, the very thick, polymer nature of the Glock mag makes it the ideal AWB magazine, because unlike a thin wall metal magazine, Glock mags can be 3D printed.

Already, we are at the point where a $200 3D printer can make functional Glock mags, using only $0.87 in plastic:
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2019/07/19/3d-printed-glock-magazines/

In 5 years, printers will have progressed to the point where their printing resolution is even finer, and lower end printers will be able to print in Carbon Fiber Reinforced Polymer, such as used in the MakerX, which produces parts stonger then commercial injection moulded glass filled nylon.

So the Glock mag is not only the most common 9x19 magazine today, but it is far and away the most viable post-ban magazine of the future.




My replies in bold.

[Bucky]

All this mag talk, Springfield, HK, and Beretta have all had promos where for little to no upcost, you get 5 or so mags with the gun. Wonder what impact that had for sales.

[RevolverRob]

My replies in bold.

Alchemy Arms tried once - https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/11/real-glock-1911-alchemy-arms-spectre/ - Really that's just a Glock side on a Glock frame, with a backstrap flattened to the 1911 grip angle.

There is really no way to make a Glock magazine work in a 2011. Seriously. Just start with the fact that the magazines angle differently and remember that the angle that the Glock magazine presents a round for feeding is almost 4º different from a 1911. 4º in engineering terms is basically the distance between Earth and Mars. It's not really close at all. Requisite changes to the lockwork geometry will require a completely new slide and totally proprietary lockwork.

The closest thing to what you're asking for is a Glock frame with a 1911 grip angle.


All this mag talk, Springfield, HK, and Beretta have all had promos where for little to no upcost, you get 5 or so mags with the gun. Wonder what impact that had for sales.

Right? In the scheme of things, a brand new Glock 19 Gen-5 OEM magazine is $24.99 an HK VP9 OEM magazine is $32.99. The difference there is EIGHT bucks. Multiple that by 10 magazines, the difference is 80 bucks...I know "that's 3-more Glock mags". The thing is...HK magazines are so vastly superior to Glock magazines, that you'll likely not wear out five HK mags in the time it takes to wear out 10 Glock mags.

And just to kind of belabor the point a bit. Glock magazines are really just okay in terms of their design. Their advantages are being cheap and plentiful. HK mags, CZ mags, Beretta mags are actually all superior to the Glock in terms of both construction and reliability in many respects. Besides being cheap, there isn't a good reason to select Glock magazines over another, unless you're marketing something to a very narrow market (think Maxim 9 or AR9s for PCC).

Even then Glock-mag-fed AR9s are almost but still not quite as reliable as Colt-SMG-mag-fed AR9s.

[spyderco monkey]

Alchemy Arms tried once - https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/10/11/real-glock-1911-alchemy-arms-spectre/ - Really that's just a Glock side on a Glock frame, with a backstrap flattened to the 1911 grip angle.

Great find. That is actually getting close to what I'm after. Obviously better executed and without the grip safety, weird keyed lock, and reputation for poor quality control...but the concept is getting there.

Basically it doesn't need to strictly be a 1911/2011. What matters is really just a Sliding Single Action trigger, as thats the most desirable aspect of the 1911.


Right? In the scheme of things, a brand new Glock 19 Gen-5 OEM magazine is $24.99 an HK VP9 OEM magazine is $32.99. The difference there is EIGHT bucks. Multiple that by 10 magazines, the difference is 80 bucks...I know "that's 3-more Glock mags". The thing is...HK magazines are so vastly superior to Glock magazines, that you'll likely not wear out five HK mags in the time it takes to wear out 10 Glock mags.

That's not a fair comparison in a number of respects.

To begin, we can get a Glock OEM magazine today for as low as $18; $20 being very common:
https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/764503170171

Whereas the cheapest VP9 mag today is $31:
https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/642230244344

So the VP9 mag is 42% more expensive. A Glock 17 ($550) + 10 mags ($180) would be $730 vs VP9 ($550) +10 mags ($310) = $860. So even with the pistols costing the same, the mag price makes the overall package $130 more expensive. Conversely, for the price of 10x VP9 mags you could have 17x Glock mags.

But that misses the core aspect of the Glock mag as 'AR Mag of Pistols.' By standardizing magazines, there is no need to keep buying magazines with each new pistol purchase. This is the core goal, and dramatically cuts down the barrier to entry for acquiring multiple platforms.

Example: Shooter purchases a Glock 17, which comes with 3 mags. Then they purchase another 10x as spares. $730.

Next year, he purchases a 'VP9G,' which comes with 2x Magpul G17 mags. $550.

Now, as the 'VP9G' shares mags with his G17, there is no need to purchase more mags, as between his 2 pistols there is 15 mags between them. $310 has been removed from his pistol acquisition cycle. Further, he only needs to bring 1x style of magazine to the range, or stash in his vehicle, house, battle belt, etc.

A year later, he buys a 'PX4G' to try DA/SA, which comes with 2x magpul G17 mags....

This very utopia is standard with modern rifles, which all take AR mags. You could own an AR, Bren, Tavor, and ARX, and rather then buying 10x different magazines for each, they can all share your 1x set of 20 PSA AR mags that you bought for $159.
https://i.imgur.com/1pLAXAT.jpg

Why shouldn't we want the same mag compatibility with our pistols?



And just to kind of belabor the point a bit. Glock magazines are really just okay in terms of their design. Their advantages are being cheap and plentiful. HK mags, CZ mags, Beretta mags are actually all superior to the Glock in terms of both construction and reliability in many respects. Besides being cheap, there isn't a good reason to select Glock magazines over another, unless you're marketing something to a very narrow market (think Maxim 9 or AR9s for PCC).

I would say 'cheap and plentiful' is quite an advantage. And while metal mags may in theory last longer, its fairly uncommon to here about a Glock magazine wearing out. And I've never heard of complaints about Glock magazine reliability.

Pretty much the only complaint it that they are thicker. And for purpose built thin pistols like the P365 or G48, thats a valid concern. For fullsize duty pistols like the P10/VP9/PPQ, which are all as thick as the Glock, we're not seeing any thiness advantage by the use of metal mags.

Further, Glock mags are available in 15/17/19/21/24/27/33/50rd capacities, whereas most metal pistol mags are available in 15/17/20rd capacities. And unlike metal mags from Mecgar, they are available from multiple manufacturers, which both reduces cost and increases availability / resistance to running out in a during a panic or import ban.


Replies in bold.

[That Guy]

For fullsize duty pistols like the P10/VP9/PPQ, which are all as thick as the Glock, we're not seeing any thiness advantage by the use of metal mags.

A thinner grip is a benefit for people with small hands. Especially when we are talking about double action pistols.

[RevolverRob]

spyderco monkey - If you haven’t seen Glock magazine issues - scroll to the search bar and type “Glock magazine issues” - then do the same for “HK magazine issues” -

And again, while I understand your reasons - I’ve sold guns, accessories, and worked in purchasing for a major national firearms retailer. What you’ve just described is an economic loss for gun companies.

Why would HK want to sell a VP9G with magpul magazines? It’s “Glock compatible! And I have tons of Glock magazines! They’ll sell dozens of them.”

Think about the math there - HK makes $130 more in your hypothetical scenario by selling you a VP9 + magazines scenario. In your VP9G scenario HK loses $310. It saves you the consumer money - economics 101 - companies aren’t trying to save you money. They’re trying to make it.

This is one of those times where I have to be impolite - if you want to try something different, pony up and stop being one of the poors.

[MistWolf]

There's no way in Hell that I'd like to see Glock mags become the standard for pistols.

[spyderco monkey]

spyderco monkey

And again, while I understand your reasons - I’ve sold guns, accessories, and worked in purchasing for a major national firearms retailer. What you’ve just described is an economic loss for gun companies.

Why would HK want to sell a VP9G with magpul magazines? It’s “Glock compatible! And I have tons of Glock magazines! They’ll sell dozens of them.”

Think about the math there - HK makes $130 more in your hypothetical scenario by selling you a VP9 + magazines scenario. In your VP9G scenario HK loses $310. It saves you the consumer money - economics 101 - companies aren’t trying to save you money. They’re trying to make it.

This is one of those times where I have to be impolite - if you want to try something different, pony up and stop being one of the poors.

It would be an economic loss if the 'VP9G' sells the same amount of pistols as the regular VP9.

The point is that HK would sell substantially more 'VP9G's then they currently sell VP9's. And since their primary business is selling HK made pistols - not Mecgar manufactured magazines - this increase in sales would be a net increase in profit for HK.

As it stands, the VP9's chief competitor is not Glock, but the Walther PPQ. The PPQ is a virtually identical pistol to the VP9 (to the point that they are difficult to tell apart at a glance) The PPQ is $100 cheaper on average, while the HK has the HK cachet. Reviews online are pretty much evenly split between one vs the other being superior.

The most surefire way HK could suddenly stand out and crush the PPQ would be to take Glock mags. Suddenly, the VP9G has a clear as distinct advantage over the PPQ, even with the PPQ's $100 lower introductory price.

With the PPQ out of the picture, the VP9G suddenly takes on the remainder of the 'not Glock' striker crowd - the CZP10 / APX / SIG P320. While the VP9 would be a toss up amongst that crowd, the VP9G has one of the single greatest advantages for the US market - it takes Glock mags. You get to have a gun thats not a Glock, yet still retain the greatest advantage of the Glock platform, which is its plethora of cheap and available magazines.

Meanwhile from the other side of the street, theres the Glock owner looking for a new pistol. Given a choice between the VP9G, that takes his existing Glock mags, vs the PPQ/CZP10/P320/APX, what do you think he's likely to choose?

So yes, the VP9G would deprive HK of its ability to sell Mecgar mags for extra profit. But it would dramatically boost their overall handgun sales by completely knee capping their rivals in the 'not Glock' striker market.


Sadly, I suspect it will take another AWB/Mag Ban before pistol manufacturers realize the advantage of taking the #1 9x19 high cap magazine in the US.

Post-Ban, the advantage of a pistol that takes Glock mags (tens of millions in circulation) vs a pistol that takes VP9/PPQ/P10/etc mags (hundreds of thousands in circulation) is going to be all too obvious.

[spyderco monkey]

There's no way in Hell that I'd like to see Glock mags become the standard for pistols.

It's really the only 'open source' magazine that could be standardized on. Glock mags are made by multiple manufacturers and used in multiple platforms. And its the single most common 9x19 high cap mag in the US by a huge margin.

There really is no other plausible magazine to standardize on.

[spyderco monkey]

A thinner grip is a benefit for people with small hands. Especially when we are talking about double action pistols.

Yes they are, but what I'm saying is these metal mag high cap pistols are not thinner then the Glock.

Holding my CZ P09 to the base of my G17, thickness is identical, despite the p09's metal mag.

My previously owned PPQ, also of the metal mag, was not thinner then my Glock.

A random pic from google:
https://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/03/12befb213079ae7ca3781d18dc633a89.jpg

Are any of these metal mag duty pistols actually thinner in the grip then the Glock?

[That Guy]

My previously owned PPQ, also of the metal mag, was not thinner then my Glock.


While I have no great deal of experience with the PPQ, I seem to recall that it should have the same size grip as the P99. In which case I disagree with you - the P99 most definitely has a significantly smaller grip than a Glock!

[spyderco monkey]

While I have no great deal of experience with the PPQ, I seem to recall that it should have the same size grip as the P99. In which case I disagree with you - the P99 most definitely has a significantly smaller grip than a Glock!

The PPQ has a much more comfortable grip. Its actually based on real ergonomics.

But its just as thick as the Glock:

http://i.imgur.com/suvEijM.jpg

VP9, PPQ, G19:
https://carolinagunrunners.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/HK-VP9-vs-Walther-PPQ-vs-Glock-19-300x200.jpg

https://www.glocktalk.com/attachments/players-rear-jpg.336831/

In theory a metal mag pistol could be made thinner, that just doesn't seem to actually be born out in practice in any of the modern duty pistols.

Which then begs the question, what is the actual payoff to having all these different proprietary metal mags?

[Bucky]

Ironically, I had a similar idea many, many years ago applying the STANAG principle to pistols. Of course at the time, my concept was to use the Beretta 92 magazine. When you consider how similar the 92, P226, and CZ75 magazines were, save for the mag catch, it would have seemed more feasible.

Of course the Glock wasn’t as prolific back then, and there wasn’t as many viable choices in the high cap 9mm world like you have today. And think about this. If my idea came to fruition, today you might have had a G17 version that took Beretta mags. :p

[Bergeron]

Glock mag ubiquity and availbility helped drive me to G19 when I wanted to get back into the double-stack 9mm game.

I do like the idea metal-lined polymer mags better than all-metal mags. I like USP mags the best, but they're never going to be popular. One of the nice things about Glock mags is that if I'm visiting a gun shop, I can almost always buy a magazine from them, just to conduct a bit positive commerce. I remember paying $85 for a single, used, pre-ban USP mag, and being happy to do it.

I'm going to be relatively reluctant to get anything in 9mm that can't take G17 or G19 magazines. I did pick up a 92D Centurion to have an iron-sighted nine, and I am frankly curious about the 2011 with its new design magazines. While I would prefer it if those guns also took Glock magazines, I understand that the engineering challenges to make that happen are simply unappetizing.

[Bucky]

I do like the idea metal-lined polymer mags better than all-metal mags. I like USP mags the best, but they're never going to be popular. One of the nice things about Glock mags is that if I'm visiting a gun shop, I can almost always buy a magazine from them, just to conduct a bit positive commerce. I remember paying $85 for a single, used, pre-ban USP mag, and being happy to do it.

I bought my wife, fiancé at the time, a G22C for an engagement gift. (Yes, she also got a ring). I remember buying her factory 15 round pre-ban mags for $75 each. I also remember G17 mags going for $105.

Better deals at that time could be had on Beretta and Sig mags because there were a whole lot more in circulation at the time. Some people made out really well during the “dark ages”.

[RevolverRob]

Which then begs the question, what is the actual payoff to having all these different proprietary metal mags?

Cash

Profit margins on accessories are almost double those on guns and are still low. Profits on firearms are about 12-15% dealer costs to the manufacturer, the dealer usually has a margin of 15% max over cost. Accessories are usually 20-30% profit margins over cost.

Setting aside the absolute inanity of making every gun on the planet work with a Glock magazine due to design constraints. It makes no financial sense for the gun companies. Regardless of what you think. Gun sales are not driven by enthusiasts, they are driven by volume buys from consumers who buy one or two guns at most. Several of us, myself included, have sold guns for a living. I’ve worked in purchasing for a major national sporting goods retailer, specializing in firearms and firearm accessories. Profits are extremely slim compared to other types of markets in the firearms world.

Gun sales reality:

Fancy camo patterns shotguns and sparkly painted Taurus pistols outsell Glocks by 4:1. They outsell HKs by 100:1.

If your market share is small, you do not compromise it, period. The end.

[MistWolf]

It's really the only 'open source' magazine that could be standardized on. Glock mags are made by multiple manufacturers and used in multiple platforms. And its the single most common 9x19 high cap mag in the US by a huge margin.

There really is no other plausible magazine to standardize on.

Many pistol mags are based on the Beretta design. One reason Bill Wilson settled on the PPQ mag for the EDC X9 is because the PPQ mag is based on the Beretta mag and considered to be the most reliable double stack pistol mag design. This information I got directly from Ken Hackathorn.


The PPQ has a much more comfortable grip. Its actually based on real ergonomics.

But its just as thick as the Glock:

http://i.imgur.com/suvEijM.jpg

In theory a metal mag pistol could be made thinner, that just doesn't seem to actually be born out in practice in any of the modern duty pistols.

Which then begs the question, what is the actual payoff to having all these different proprietary metal mags?

The outside width of the grip is the same, but the circumference of the PPQ is smaller and is circular, whereas the Glock grip is blocky. Note the difference in the magwell dimensions. The Glock magwell is much larger and wider than the PPQ magwell. The size of the Glock magwell forces the grip into a block shape unless the outside dimensions are enlarged. The smaller magwell dimensions required to house the Beretta family of magazines gives the designer more room to work with in shaping the grip.

Using metal mags with their thinner walls gives designers a distinct advantage designing new handguns. Look at how small the grip is on the new P365. It holds ten rounds while being as close in size to the Glock 43 that it makes no practical difference. If the Sig magazine were made of plastic, there wouldn't be room to fit ten rounds in such a small package. In fact, the magwell needed to fit the single stack mag of the 43 is so wide that a company is working to develop a double stack mag steel of greater capacity to fit it.

Take a look at Glocks chambered for 45 ACP. The double stack Glock 45 ACP magazine is even wider than those for the 9mm resulting in an even wider grip with the ergonomics of a block of wood. Compare that to the PPQ45 which uses a steel 12 round double stack magazine. The pistol is noticeably larger than the PPQ in 9mm, but it's surprisingly small for a 45 ACP. It's no larger than an 8 shot Colt Commander and it's shape fills the hand nicely. No way the PPQ45 would be possible with a Glock magazine.

AR magazines work because they are size efficient. They're about as compact as possible and still fit a 5.56. Glock mags are not. The material thickness and angle means they take up more room than necessary. People think that certain pistols could be "Glock Killers" if they accepted Glock magazines. The Glock magazine is the primary reason people who are looking for a "Glock Killer" are looking for a "Glock Killer" in the first place.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Yes they are, but what I'm saying is these metal mag high cap pistols are not thinner then the Glock.

Holding my CZ P09 to the base of my G17, thickness is identical, despite the p09's metal mag.

My previously owned PPQ, also of the metal mag, was not thinner then my Glock.

A random pic from google:
https://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07/03/12befb213079ae7ca3781d18dc633a89.jpg

Are any of these metal mag duty pistols actually thinner in the grip then the Glock?

The P250, particularly with the small grip module, has a substantially smaller grip circumference than the Glock.



The outside width of the grip is the same, but the circumference of the PPQ is smaller and is circular, whereas the Glock grip is blocky. Note the difference in the magwell dimensions. The Glock magwell is much larger and wider than the PPQ magwell. The size of the Glock magwell forces the grip into a block shape unless the outside dimensions are enlarged. The smaller magwell dimensions required to house the Beretta family of magazines gives the designer more room to work with in shaping the grip.

People think that certain pistols could be "Glock Killers" if they accepted Glock magazines. The Glock magazine is the primary reason people who are looking for a "Glock Killer" are looking for a "Glock Killer" in the first place.

My G3 Glock, which was my constant companion for 15 years, now languishes in the safe precisely because of grip size. Why do you think there is such a buzz over the possibility of 15 round metal mags for the G48/43x?

[RAM Engineer]

I made the mistake of clicking on page two of this thread expecting info relevant to the topic. My mistake.

[spyderco monkey]

Ironically, I had a similar idea many, many years ago applying the STANAG principle to pistols. Of course at the time, my concept was to use the Beretta 92 magazine. When you consider how similar the 92, P226, and CZ75 magazines were, save for the mag catch, it would have seemed more feasible.


Honestly I would be thrilled if that came into fruition; if not Glock mags Beretta 92 mags would be great.

Sadly, that simple goal seems to be beyond even Beretta's capability. Instead we have this absurd situation:

Beretta 92 = 92 Mags
Beretta PX4 = PX4 Mags
Beretta APX = APX Mags

https://i.imgflip.com/2/8u2b.jpg

[spyderco monkey]

My G3 Glock, which was my constant companion for 15 years, now languishes in the safe precisely because of grip size. Why do you think there is such a buzz over the possibility of 15 round metal mags for the G48/43x?

This is a function of Glock - especially then Gen 3 - having profoundly mediocre ergonomics. There are children's toy guns and power drills with more refined grips.

This is not, however, a function of the Glock magazine.

Lone Wolfs Timberwolf 2.0 magazine has really comfortable, slim ergonomics. I took this picture at SHOT a few years ago. I was amazed at how different these felt in the hand, they were reminiscent of a CZ75 but smaller in the grip:
https://i.ibb.co/hVxQ9Vp/timberwolf-2-0-frames.jpg (https://ibb.co/3c56dct)

[spyderco monkey]

The outside width of the grip is the same, but the circumference of the PPQ is smaller and is circular, whereas the Glock grip is blocky. Note the difference in the magwell dimensions. The Glock magwell is much larger and wider than the PPQ magwell. The size of the Glock magwell forces the grip into a block shape unless the outside dimensions are enlarged. The smaller magwell dimensions required to house the Beretta family of magazines gives the designer more room to work with in shaping the grip.

Using metal mags with their thinner walls gives designers a distinct advantage designing new handguns. Look at how small the grip is on the new P365. It holds ten rounds while being as close in size to the Glock 43 that it makes no practical difference. If the Sig magazine were made of plastic, there wouldn't be room to fit ten rounds in such a small package. In fact, the magwell needed to fit the single stack mag of the 43 is so wide that a company is working to develop a double stack mag steel of greater capacity to fit it.

Take a look at Glocks chambered for 45 ACP. The double stack Glock 45 ACP magazine is even wider than those for the 9mm resulting in an even wider grip with the ergonomics of a block of wood. Compare that to the PPQ45 which uses a steel 12 round double stack magazine. The pistol is noticeably larger than the PPQ in 9mm, but it's surprisingly small for a 45 ACP. It's no larger than an 8 shot Colt Commander and it's shape fills the hand nicely. No way the PPQ45 would be possible with a Glock magazine.

AR magazines work because they are size efficient. They're about as compact as possible and still fit a 5.56. Glock mags are not. The material thickness and angle means they take up more room than necessary. People think that certain pistols could be "Glock Killers" if they accepted Glock magazines. The Glock magazine is the primary reason people who are looking for a "Glock Killer" are looking for a "Glock Killer" in the first place.

The P365 and and G48 are outliers that would warrant a metal mag, as they are designed to be as thin as possible. I'm all aboard the G48 + Metal Mag master race, and can't wait until Shield releases that.

The majority of duty pistols though are not any thinner then the Glock, despite their metal mags.

In terms of rounded grips, that could be an issue, although to my knowledge the PPQ and VP9 are the only 2 pistols to really make use of such a 3D, sophisticated grip shape.

That said, if you look at the picture I just posted a comment above, with the Glock grip hump completely removed ala Timberwolf 2.0, there is actually a much narrower grip circumference, and room to add 3D palm swells.

As for the .45 ACP, I would never propose the G21 mag being used. Like the P365, double stack .45 ACP pistols need all the help they can get in reducing their circumference. I'd say the PPQ or Tanfoglio mag would be a good option to standardize on.

In terms of the AR mag, the reason the AR mag is used is that its the most common, and its what the customer wants. Its not at all because the AR mag is an optimal 5.56 mag- it's not. The AUG mag, for example, is far superior. Its constant curve, designed from the ground up to be polymer, allows a longer cartridge COL than is possible in the AR.

An even more ideal proprietary 5.56 mag would take the advantages of the AUG mag but extend to 2.4" COL. This would allow it to be backwards compatible with current 5.56 ammo, while allowing the use of 80+gr projectiles, as well as VLD solid copper .224 projectiles. The result would be a transformation in the capability of 5.56, as a VLD will extend the 1700fps expansion range +100-150yd beyond what the current 2.25" 5.56 COL is capable of.

In that way, the AR mag is used by all the rifle companies for exactly the reason I am advocating for the Glock mag. Its not the best mag, but its far and away the most common, and allows standardization across platforms.

[That Guy]

In that way, the AR mag is used by all the rifle companies for exactly the reason I am advocating for the Glock mag. Its not the best mag, but its far and away the most common, and allows standardization across platforms.

I'm still not convinced the Glock magazine would be a good choice for a double action pistol. The Beretta 92 magazine mentioned above would seem to me to be a better magazine to standardize on, for all the reasons mentioned before. Plenty of those out there as well, and inexpensive to buy.

[LangdonTactical]

Does anyone know what ever became of this design? I know Detonics was a hit or miss brand, but the STX was a seriously cool pistol design. Essentially a Striker Fired 2011 for $1000.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/56f1afc1044262c53cf48dc5/1461095066592-9PAHKJ9IBFKHEJABQSAY/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kEKrO9UYS4FmySKavfW9pPx7gQa3H7 8H3Y0txjaiv_0fYiipkZ87xgDekDUjSlg8vh7zj8da1mEuzfTk VZrXXq0NDPIMYUqMpyMYI20OdjP7OqpeNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1UU 2FFljqjy7hf0ixLXa6yaKKLz48Z8lH2MLQY745oijwFlq8oZZw hhoTbTOjCpwBwg/image-asset.jpeg?format=1500w

http://detonicsdef.squarespace.com/stx

-modular tactical frame, designed to accept 4 barrel/slide lengths, as well as a full size or compact grip.
-striker fired trigger that also maintains the short length of pull and crispness commonly found on a single action trigger system.

If a company made a version of the STX that took Glock mags, I think they'd be printing money. Rather then debate Glock vs 1911, this would combine the best of both into one pistol.

I'm actually pretty surprised that a company hasn't come out with a striker fired SAO pistol with a 1911 style sliding trigger.

Why don't they just build a true 1911 and pin the grip safety and take the thumb safety off? Then you could really have the same trigger as a 1911, with no safety. That seems to be what everybody wants anyway.

Makes me sad :-(

[RevolverRob]

Why don't they just build a true 1911 and pin the grip safety and take the thumb safety off? Then you could really have the same trigger as a 1911, with no safety. That seems to be what everybody wants anyway.

Makes me sad :-(

Then people would complain it had a hammer.

It's almost like what people want is a Glock with a better trigger. They made that gun and called it the Heckler and Koch VP9.

[MistWolf]

Then people would complain it had a hammer.

It's almost like what people want is a Glock with a better trigger. They made that gun and called it the Heckler and Koch VP9.

I would rather rather have the trigger dingus than the grip safety. The trigger dingus is more positive to engage/disengage.

[Zman001]

Instead of a single mag design for all pistols, a 2 way approach seems to be more sensible.

Glock pattern when possible, would be hard to fit in a metal frame, but easily doable in polymer guns, obviously glock does it, and the various aftermarket frames have been able to show that the glock mag doesn't mean you have to have glock like ergos

Beretta pattern for guns that can't quite fit the larger glock mags. I want to say the beretta mags are based on BHP mags? In any case it seems like most metal double stack mags are based on this pattern

These two patterns are probably the best representatives both price, options, and quality wise. I think its fair to say that the options for aftermarket glock and beretta mags are better (and more numerous) than the aftermarket options for HK, S&W, etc.

Its also much easier for primarily polymer companies like magpul or ETS to make glock mags that are at least somewhat functional.

And as far as quality of hk vs glock mags? I imagine the amount of glock mags that are out there dwarfs the amount of HK mags, so I wouldn't be so quick to judge based on a few reports

[Chuck Whitlock]

This is a function of Glock - especially then Gen 3 - having profoundly mediocre ergonomics. There are children's toy guns and power drills with more refined grips.

This is not, however, a function of the Glock magazine.

Lone Wolfs Timberwolf 2.0 magazine has really comfortable, slim ergonomics. I took this picture at SHOT a few years ago. I was amazed at how different these felt in the hand, they were reminiscent of a CZ75 but smaller in the grip:
https://i.ibb.co/hVxQ9Vp/timberwolf-2-0-frames.jpg (https://ibb.co/3c56dct)

LW has the large frame 2.0 out. A guy on my shit has a G20 with it, and it does significantly reduce the grip circumference. The 9/.40 2.0 frame is still vaporware, though.

[Bucky]

LW has the large frame 2.0 out. A guy on my shit has a G20 with it...

You must be real close. ;)

[Chuck Whitlock]

You must be real close. ;)

Ha!!:D SHIFT

That's what I get for posting in a hurry with only a couple of sips of coffee in me.