VA state police deal with crazed, naked murder suspect

[LittleLebowski]

Video at link SFW. Honestly, I'm not one to Monday morning quarterback but that cop with the AR chasing the cop around could have quickly and decisively put that suspect down in a non lethal manner with a butt stroke or a magazine or muzzle strike from his AR. I'm quite open to the fact that the trooper might not have been trained in using the AR as an impact weapon.

https://nypost.com/2019/08/27/see-it-naked-triple-homicide-suspect-leads-cops-on-wild-foot-chase/

[Mjolnir]

He did not appear to be especially dangerous. A bit off but not dangerous.

I’m glad he was not shot.

Officer needs some less-than-lethal skills.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

He did not appear to be especially dangerous. A bit off but not dangerous.

I’m glad he was not shot.

Officer needs some less-than-lethal skills.



He'd just killed some people, not sure if the cop knew that or not.

[TC215]

He did not appear to be especially dangerous. A bit off but not dangerous.

I’m glad he was not shot.

Officer needs some less-than-lethal skills.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He just killed three people and tried to choke an innocent bystander.


He'd just killed some people, not sure if the cop knew that or not.

LE knew, they were actively looking for him.

[TGS]

Liability for when intermediate force ends up killing/maiming someone is generally mitigated by documented training and policies.

I'm not aware of any LE agency that trains their officers to strike someone in the head with a hard object as intermediate force, for obvious reasons. You'd be toast if the guy ended up suffering some serious affliction or died from butt-stroking him.

I'm not going to comment one way or the other as to how the officer should have handled it, but I don't think that critiquing LEOs and saying they should just butt-stroke people is a great viewpoint in 2019 America unless said officer is already at the point of justifying deadly force.

[Borderland]

Liability for when intermediate force ends up killing/maiming someone is generally mitigated by documented training and policies.

I'm not aware of any LE agency that trains their officers to strike someone in the head with a hard object as intermediate force, for obvious reasons. You'd be toast if the guy ended up suffering some serious affliction or died from butt-stroking him.

I'm not going to comment one way or the other as to how the officer should have handled it, but I don't think that critiquing LEOs and saying they should just butt-stroke people is a great viewpoint in 2019 America unless said officer is already at the point of justifying deadly force.

I've seen lots of video where LEO has been injured by not defending themselves. I'm not sure but is this the result of training to not use anything to strike an individual? I just don't know so that's why I'm asking. Do officers even carry batons anymore? I don't think I've seen them in awhile.

I'm thinking a rap on the head with a baton is far better than being shot but I'm not LE so I don't have to worry about a lawsuit.

[LittleLebowski]

Liability for when intermediate force ends up killing/maiming someone is generally mitigated by documented training and policies.

I'm not aware of any LE agency that trains their officers to strike someone in the head with a hard object as intermediate force, for obvious reasons. You'd be toast if the guy ended up suffering some serious affliction or died from butt-stroking him.

I'm not going to comment one way or the other as to how the officer should have handled it, but I don't think that critiquing LEOs and saying they should just butt-stroke people is a great viewpoint in 2019 America unless said officer is already at the point of justifying deadly force.

I really, really tried not to say "the officer should have" and did not, however I did say "could have". I understand that there's SOPs and liabilities I'm not aware of.

[LittleLebowski]

He just killed three people and tried to choke an innocent bystander.


Yeah, I was anticipating deadly force after the choke.

[TC215]

I'm thinking a rap on the head with a baton is far better than being shot but I'm not LE so I don't have to worry about a lawsuit.

We can only use baton strikes to the head when deadly force is authorized.

[TGS]

I've seen lots of video where LEO has been injured by not defending themselves. I'm not sure but is this the result of training to not use anything to strike an individual? I just don't know so that's why I'm asking. Do officers even carry batons anymore? I don't think I've seen them in awhile.

I'm thinking a rap on the head with a baton is far better than being shot but I'm not LE so I don't have to worry about a lawsuit.

I never said that a LEO should not strike anyone or defend themselves, but there's a way it has to be gone about these days. Some things that were okay in the 70s, like hitting someone in the head with a sap, are no longer kosher. It is absolutely a more restrictive environment, and saying cops should just baton people in the head is easy to say as someone who isn't a cop and doesn't know what they're talking about...…...it's another matter altogether for someone who understands current UOF law, TTPs, and will have to look their wife in the eye and explain why the family has lost all of their savings due to a lawsuit, hubby is out of a job and has no income, no health insurance, and still needs to find a way to move because of incessant harassment and death threats.

Batons are standard equipment for all police nationwide. I don't know what you're talking about.

[TGS]

I really, really tried not to say "the officer should have" and did not, however I did say "could have". I understand that there's SOPs and liabilities I'm not aware of.

So, if a LEO places you under arrest and you respond with, "Well, yeah, that's just like, you know, your opinion, man" and go into a pugilist stance, and said LEO tases you, and you end up dying, that LEO will face very little consequence unless it becomes a politically motivated witchhunt ala Ferguson or Baton Rouge.

The LEO used a departmentally authorized intermediate force adjunct according to policy in a manner that is not consistent with or aimed at causing grievous bodily harm or death. Thus, he will be protected unless he deviates substiantially from policy, like holding down the happy button instead of 5-second applications (or whatever is specified in policy or trained).

If said LEO reverts to USMC boot camp and smashes you in the head with his buttstock, he will fry. It is widely taught and understood that using something harder than your fist to hit a human head is consistent with the ability to cause grievous bodily harm or death. It is thus precarious to hit someone in the head with a hard object simply with the aim of knocking them out, or otherwise trying to gain compliance, as death or grievous bodily harm is a reasonable outcome from such an action (enter Zimmerman being a righteous shoot because he was having his head bashed into cement).

Here's when Joe Public at Coffee With A Cop asks, "What about when a cop hits someone in the head with a baton and they end up with a brain injury? Why aren't they sued or criminally charged?" Usually they aren't held liable or charged because the cop was aiming for a zone as taught in training (for instance, a major muscle group), and they unintentionally hit the subject in the head due to being in a scuffle and people moving in unpredictable manners. However, the LEO still deployed both the baton and said strike in a manner consistent with, and intended as, an intermediate force adjunct. In other words, "Shit happens, can't blame the officer when he was trying to do the right thing".

Don't know if that helps clear it up. Txpd did a good job in the other, original thread this topic is being discussed, as well.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Not my call but by not physically engaging him when he was close, to me it looks like that gave him the opportunity to assault a bystander? Thankfully that assault looked like it didn't generate any damage but if a naked crazy murderer is up close and personal with Joe Citizen I'm thinking it's pure luck if you get choked a bit, not badly bitten.

So my read is it's a little worrying if the response is not fast enough, and aggressive enough. Of course, I also don't have any idea what level of support for aggressive action this guy's department would give. For all I know they spent the morning in a meeting getting lectured on their poor performance as social workers and street counsellors, and got warned to spend the first 3 hours of all interactions on de-escalation. If your community doesn't tolerate police actually enforcing laws, well, you're going to get some pretty ineffectual defense when you need it.

[Borderland]

I never said that a LEO should not strike anyone or defend themselves, but there's a way it has to be gone about these days. Some things that were okay in the 70s, like hitting someone in the head with a sap, are no longer kosher. It is absolutely a more restrictive environment, and saying cops should just baton people in the head is easy to say as someone who isn't a cop and doesn't know what they're talking about...…...it's another matter altogether for someone who understands current UOF law, TTPs, and will have to look their wife in the eye and explain why the family has lost all of their savings due to a lawsuit, hubby is out of a job and has no income, no health insurance, and still needs to find a way to move because of incessant harassment and death threats.

Batons are standard equipment for all police nationwide. I don't know what you're talking about.

So what went wrong in this action?

All those LEO this individual came in contact with and none of them would engage. Several of them were running from the suspect. If they all carry batons and were being attacked by the suspect why didn't they use them? They saw the guy attack an elderly bystander.

[Coyotesfan97]

This is a crazed triple homicide suspect who used a rifle and is considered armed and dangerous. He’s allowed to run/chase an Officer into a parking lot with innocent bystanders. He then assaults and chokes a man getting into a truck taking him hostage with the potential of stealing the truck and going mobile. Your threat level and justifications under Graham v Connor for deadly force are through the roof right there. I have no issues with using your rifle not your baton to address that threat.

I already talked about the K9 failure in the other thread.

[TGS]

So what went wrong in this action?

All those LEO this individual came in contact with and none of them would engage. Several of them were running from the suspect. If they all carry batons and were being attacked by the suspect why didn't they use them? They saw the guy attack an elderly bystander.

No clue why the officer didn't try using his baton. Maybe he did prior to the film starting and the suspect took it and threw it. Maybe he didn't. We don't know, best not to speculate and pass such off as definitive.


This is a crazed triple homicide suspect who used a rifle and is considered armed and dangerous. He’s allowed to run/chase an Officer into a parking lot with innocent bystanders. He then assaults and chokes a man getting into a truck taking him hostage with the potential of stealing the truck and going mobile. Your threat level and justifications under Graham v Connor for deadly force are through the roof right there. I have no issues with using your rifle not your baton to address that threat.

I already talked about the K9 failure in the other thread.

He's naked, obviously not armed. From what we saw here, I don't think I'd be able to justify deadly force until he made his way for the bystander.

[Borderland]

No clue why the officer didn't try using his baton. Maybe he did prior to the film starting and the suspect took it and threw it. Maybe he didn't. We don't know, best not to speculate and pass such off as definitive.

But aren't you speculating that because the suspect wasn't armed he wasn't a threat?

As was pointed out he could have easily car jacked that old guys vehicle.

So lets all just stand around a wait to see what this guy is going to do. If that's LE training in VA they have a yuge problem.

[Coyotesfan97]

He's naked, obviously not armed. From what we saw here, I don't think I'd be able to justify deadly force until he made his way for the bystander.

That’s the point I’m talking about when he’s choking the bystander

[TC215]

So what went wrong in this action?

All those LEO this individual came in contact with and none of them would engage. Several of them were running from the suspect. If they all carry batons and were being attacked by the suspect why didn't they use them? They saw the guy attack an elderly bystander.

Several were running from him?

The officer struck the suspect with a baton while he was chocking the bystander.

[TGS]

But aren't you speculating that because the suspect wasn't armed he wasn't a threat?

As was pointed out he could have easily car jacked that old guys vehicle.

So lets all just stand around a wait to see what this guy is going to do. If that's LE training in VA they have a yuge problem.

I never stated he wasn't a threat. I said he was naked and obviously not armed.

I don't know why you're being obtuse about this.

[JHC]

“The choke hold saved lives, but, ah, nobody ever got elected saying that, I suppose.” Eldon Perry ;)

[txdpd]

One thing to keep in mind here is that there are two ways we should view this. One way is we know the outcome and in hindsight what could have been done differently. The other is based off what we see, was the force reasonable based off of what we presume the officer knew at that moment.

In hindsight it’s very easy to say that the suspect should have been handled fairly early in that encounter and justify it based off the fact that after he was taken into custody he was determined to be the murder suspect. In BFE Virginia, if you think some meth’d out white boy can’t randomly pop out of the woods, run into the middle of a major police incident looking for help because he’s getting chased by “them”, I think you’re making some poor assumptions about what could go wrong this world.

There’s plenty to criticize regardless of how you look at this. The use of force standard is was this use of force reasonable based off of what was or was not reasonably known to the actor at the time or are we applying 20/20 hindsight.

I don’t know if there an applicable felony statute for choking, otherwise those officer were not in a clear cut fleeing felon situation.

[TC215]

I don’t know if there an applicable felony statute for choking, otherwise those officer were not in a clear cut fleeing felon situation.

Im pretty sure the three people he killed before that will bring felony charges.

[Borderland]

Several were running from him?

The officer struck the suspect with a baton while he was chocking the bystander.

I believe it was a woman officer in the first part of the video that was running from the guy.

Watch the video closely. Officer never hit the guy with his baton. With that half hearted swing it looks like he is intentionally trying not to hit the guy.

I guess they just do things differently in VA. I just hope that VA is a shall issue state because they definitely need it.

[TC215]

I believe it was a woman officer in the first part of the video that was running from the guy.

Watch the video closely. Officer never hit the guy with his baton. With that half hearted swing it looks like he is intentionally trying not to hit the guy.

I guess they just do things differently in VA. I just hope that VA is a shall issue state because they definitely need it.

I’ve watched the video about a dozen times. It’s one officer dealing with the suspect until he runs down the road into the other officers.

You asked why no one used a baton, and the officer clearly did use his baton. The officer also looked to be smoked by that point, and the strike didn’t appear to be effective.

[TGS]

I’ve watched the video about a dozen times. It’s one officer dealing with the suspect until he runs down the road into the other officers.

You asked why no one used a baton, and the officer clearly did use his baton. The officer also looked to be smoked by that point, and the strike didn’t appear to be effective.

Went back and watched that part, and yup, it's clear as day.

Borderlands, you need to stop fucking commenting from whatever planet you're on. You make no sense and have no idea what you're talking about, and seem to just make stuff up half the time.

[Borderland]

Went back and watched that part, and yup, it's clear as day.

Borderlands, you need to stop fucking commenting from whatever planet you're on. You make no sense and have no idea what you're talking about, and seem to just make stuff up half the time.


Maybe he did prior to the film starting and the suspect took it and threw it.


Well heck, I thought it was a woman LEO. My bad.

[RevolverRob]

I couldn't tell, the baton strike does appear weak. Was the baton a proper one or collapsible? I would expect a result like that from a collapsible baton almost regardless of strength of the swing. Clearly this individual was out of his head.

OC Failure sucks. Baton hit sucks. No sling (or crappy sling?) on the rifle. K9 failed to engage. Clusterfuck all around, but an example of how things can go. I commend the officer on attempts to utilize less lethal force and for staying on both the suspect and not giving up, even when gassed. But definitely hope that they receive some remedial less-lethal training, get a sling on that rifle post-haste, and get some more cardio on (though to be fair, I don't know how long the foot chase was going on). At least it did not end with lethal force having to be used.

Are VA State Police not commonly issued Tasers? I've seen situations like this play out here in Chicago, where if a Taser had been available it might well have helped. This strikes me as one of those times too. Naked guy, whacked out of his mind. Send him for a ride and get backup up to you to cuff him. Of course, I know that a lot of departments are moving to a UOF doctrine that can treat the Taser like lethal force, so it might not have been useful here.

[TGS]

[what you quoted from me]

God damnit you're fucking retarded. I didn't state that's what happened.

[LittleLebowski]

Let’s dial it back a bit here.

[TAZ]

Dang. That looked like something out of a Benny Hill skit, with the naked dude chasing a cop around in circles.

No clue about batons or what not, but weak or not, the crazy dude disengaged from the would be 4th victim, so in that respect it worked.

The dog looks like even it was worried about catching something nasty if it bit the dude. I think it would have been awesome to see the dog latch onto mr. crazy’s junk and drag him about a bit.

Glad they caught the guy, hope he gets a long stint out of public circulation and possibly a quick needle treatment.

Surprised that there was no Tazer deployed.

[TGS]

Surprised that there was no Tazer deployed.

So the public is angry at these cops for this Benny Hill skit, and "why didn't they tase him!?" was brought up.

Virginia State Troopers are not issued tasers. They're special issue items to specific teams, in limited service.

[SouthNarc]

You know maybe I'm showing my age here but back in my day we would have just tackled that dude.

Cops as a rule can't fight, but even the weakest patrolman on one of my old shifts wouldn't have run from that guy.

Different times I guess.

[Rex G]

A couple of federal appeals court decisions might cause individual officers to hesitate to use Tasers. PD policies on Tasers have been increasingly limited/restrictive. I deleted those notes from this iPad when I retired, so cannot cite the cases, but, yes, the use of Tasers has come to be seen as closer to the lethal end of the less-lethal scale.

In the twilight of my career, I cursed the, uh, well, electronic ornament that monopolized so much real estate on my 34” duty belt. So many thou-shalt-nots in PD policy, and the concern about the court cases; I’d rather have been able to use a real handcuff case again, on the front of my belt, and maybe add more Penetrator slugs for the Benelli M2.

Edited to add: In the scenario being discussed, however, I think I would have been within policy to Tase the naked suspect.

[Mjolnir]

So, if a LEO places you under arrest and you respond with, "Well, yeah, that's just like, you know, your opinion, man" and go into a pugilist stance, and said LEO tases you, and you end up dying, that LEO will face very little consequence unless it becomes a politically motivated witchhunt ala Ferguson or Baton Rouge.

The LEO used a departmentally authorized intermediate force adjunct according to policy in a manner that is not consistent with or aimed at causing grievous bodily harm or death. Thus, he will be protected unless he deviates substiantially from policy, like holding down the happy button instead of 5-second applications (or whatever is specified in policy or trained).

If said LEO reverts to USMC boot camp and smashes you in the head with his buttstock, he will fry. It is widely taught and understood that using something harder than your fist to hit a human head is consistent with the ability to cause grievous bodily harm or death. It is thus precarious to hit someone in the head with a hard object simply with the aim of knocking them out, or otherwise trying to gain compliance, as death or grievous bodily harm is a reasonable outcome from such an action (enter Zimmerman being a righteous shoot because he was having his head bashed into cement).

Here's when Joe Public at Coffee With A Cop asks, "What about when a cop hits someone in the head with a baton and they end up with a brain injury? Why aren't they sued or criminally charged?" Usually they aren't held liable or charged because the cop was aiming for a zone as taught in training (for instance, a major muscle group), and they unintentionally hit the subject in the head due to being in a scuffle and people moving in unpredictable manners. However, the LEO still deployed both the baton and said strike in a manner consistent with, and intended as, an intermediate force adjunct. In other words, "Shit happens, can't blame the officer when he was trying to do the right thing".

Don't know if that helps clear it up. Txpd did a good job in the other, original thread this topic is being discussed, as well.

I can speak of Baton Rouge because I was born, raised and lived here.

The officer who shot and killed the guy outside the store was a horse’s rear end all of his career and the BRPD knew it; officers knew it.

He was fired then and only then did the stories become public.

So some of the ugly “witch hunts” aren’t what they may seem from the outside looking in.

Was Sterling up to little good?

Yes, more than likely.

But Salamoni was known to “ALWAYS escalate”, “pushed the boundaries”, “exceed boundaries” and it cost a man his life.

Now the Mayor is a Socialist, if you ask me, and she placed a “compliant police chief” underneath her. There is a lot of “growling” about him - some being discussed on FB as it’s being discussed in the local news and paper.

Lots of white officers are choosing to serve elsewhere or there are discussions about doing so.

Unfortunately, race plays no small hand here sometimes and I wish I could just snap my fingers and all would be solved. Unfortunately, I cannot. It requires all sides to sit and discuss and HONESTLY look at events thru each other’s eyes.

It’s doable and I believe eventually we get there. It’s just not happening on MY schedule - because it’s NOT MY schedule.

Sorry to sidetrack the conversation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TGS]

I can speak of Baton Rouge because I was born, raised and lived here.

The officer who shot and killed the guy outside the store was a horse’s rear end all of his career and the BRPD knew it; officers knew it.

He was fired then and only then did the stories become public.

So some of the ugly “witch hunts” aren’t what they may seem from the outside looking in.

If you're referring to the Alton Sterling shooting, that was a 100% justified shooting that was blown up into the national stage for no reason other than race baiting. The officers answered a call for a man pointing a gun at people, and when they tried to retain him the subject decided the play fisti-cuffs and pulled a gun on them.

It was textbook. There's no possible way it could have been more justified. Whatever you know about the officer's background is irrelevant.

No idea what you're getting on about regardless or what your post has to do with this thread, though.

[okie john]

Video at link SFW. Honestly, I'm not one to Monday morning quarterback but that cop with the AR chasing the cop around could have quickly and decisively put that suspect down in a non lethal manner with a butt stroke or a magazine or muzzle strike from his AR. I'm quite open to the fact that the trooper might not have been trained in using the AR as an impact weapon.

https://nypost.com/2019/08/27/see-it-naked-triple-homicide-suspect-leads-cops-on-wild-foot-chase/

Butt stroking someone with an M-4 is a good way to bend the buffer tube and end up with a one-shot weapon.


Okie John

[TAZ]

So the public is angry at these cops for this Benny Hill skit, and "why didn't they tase him!?" was brought up.

Virginia State Troopers are not issued tasers. They're special issue items to specific teams, in limited service.

For the record, I'm not angry at the cops. Personally, I would have been perfectly OK with the cop taking his baton to the guys knee caps at the onset, rather than running around in circles trying to mace the guy. Didn't realize that Va didn't issue Tasers. Would have been perfectly ok with him getting tased in his junk as well. I have little sympathy for retards acting like retards.

In the end, they caught the guy before he was able to harm any other folks too seriously, so the outcome was acceptable. Silly looking, but it is what it is.

[RevolverRob]

Virginia State Troopers are not issued tasers. They're special issue items to specific teams, in limited service.

I kind of thought that might be the issue. Chicago PD does not widely issue or authorize tasers, basically Sgts have them and not many other people and that's why sometimes you get incidents here that look a bit "Keystone Cops".


You know maybe I'm showing my age here but back in my day we would have just tackled that dude.

Cops as a rule can't fight, but even the weakest patrolman on one of my old shifts wouldn't have run from that guy.

Different times I guess.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that. I can only imagine that the two reasons the office was hesitant to tackle him was due to him needing to hold the rifle and due to a lack of backup.

[BigDaddy]

I kind of thought that might be the issue. Chicago PD does not widely issue or authorize tasers, basically Sgts have them and not many other people and that's why sometimes you get incidents here that look a bit "Keystone Cops".





I don't know where you get your information from regarding the Chicago PD but this is the second time you have posted incorrect information about it. All Officers who have completed the Department approved training course are authorized to take one out. The days of patrolmen calling for a Sgts. Taser ended years ago. If you are a patrolman and you want to carry one, you carry one provided you successfully completed the training course. Edited to add. If they complete the department approved training course, they are REQUIRED to take a Taser out when they begin their tour of duty

[RevolverRob]

I don't know where you get your information from regarding the Chicago PD but this is the second time you have posted incorrect information about it. All Officers who have completed the Department approved training course are authorized to take one out. The days of patrolmen calling for a Sgts. Taser ended years ago. If you are a patrolman and you want to carry one, you carry one provided you successfully completed the training course.

You’ll have to let me know when the last time I posted that was.

CPD had 745 tasers in use in 2015. They did not have a sufficient number of tasers for every officer to have one until April of 2018 - per Axon - https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/chicago-police-department-now-fully-deployed-with-axons-taser-smart-weapons-300626751.html

I am still not seeing regular carriage of Tasers by CPD Officers working in/around: South Loop, Museum Campus, River North, Little Italy/UIC, Bronzeville, Kenwood, or Hyde Park neighborhoods. I live and/or traverse those neighborhoods regularly if not daily. This could be different and likely is different in other parts of the city.

I suppose you are correct it is “years” in the past that Tasers were less available as in...about 2. It’s a demonstrable fact that four years ago there were barely enough Tasers for 10% of the officers to carry them. CPD Taser Policy is evolving quickly right now, as I’m sure you’re aware, which may be influencing the carriage and deployment of this tool.

I noted this morning that the University of Chicago PD will officially begin Taser training and deployment this fall. Last year UCPD was involved in a non-fatal shooting, that thanks to multiple dash cameras in use, quickly exonerated the officers involved. But it seems some political pressure has been applied to both put Tasers on duty belts, but also provide the funds to support training and equipping.

[BaiHu]

You know maybe I'm showing my age here but back in my day we would have just tackled that dude.

Cops as a rule can't fight, but even the weakest patrolman on one of my old shifts wouldn't have run from that guy.

Different times I guess.Fearful of muff diving during the tackle?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

Fearful of muff diving during the tackle?

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

It does reinforce the general idea that no one wants to fight the naked guy.

[Mjolnir]

If you're referring to the Alton Sterling shooting, that was a 100% justified shooting that was blown up into the national stage for no reason other than race baiting. The officers answered a call for a man pointing a gun at people, and when they tried to retain him the subject decided the play fisti-cuffs and pulled a gun on them.

It was textbook. There's no possible way it could have been more justified. Whatever you know about the officer's background is irrelevant.

No idea what you're getting on about regardless or what your post has to do with this thread, though.

Of course, you don’t know.

You aren’t here...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk