Aging Eyes, Sight Types and Getting Back on the Gun: My Recent Observations

[ErnieB]

Yep.... I'm getting older and my eyes are letting me know it. Bummer.

I am not ready, mostly from just being stubborn, to go the way of the red dot for anything but rifles. Once I hit 40 my vision at distance started to go. At first it only bothered me driving at night in Vegas with all the neon haze. Now I am starting to notice it in broad daylight as without scripts I find myself needing to be much closer to the street signs before being able to clearly read them (thank you Garmin!). I have a slight astigmatism is my dominant eye (I'm right eye dominant, left handed but shoot right handed). Another thing I am starting to notice is a change in eye speed and the ability to focus from near to far a quickly as I could 4-5 years ago. Maybe this is just a head game but I don't seem to be getting the quality of visual input from the sights as quickly as I used to. I can still see my sights relatively clearly but I am noticing that certain types of sights don't work as well for me as they used to. At the same time I am starting to shoot my handguns quite a bit more after a few year hiatus due to work commitments. I didn't totally abandon my pistol shooting but it didn't get the time and attention it got in 2004-5. Hence, the old adage of my brain wants to run like a 20 year old but my body is letting me know that I'm no longer 20. Here are some observations I have made while practicing various drills/standards and trying to get back in the groove:

- I am going to ditch my all black and black rear/FO front sights on my comp gun. There is not enough contrast between the front and rear sights for me to pick them as quickly as I would like. Variable lighting conditions make these even more of a challenge to use. Heck, I shot better with the stock plastic Glock sights the other day doing plate rack drills from 10 to 25 yards. Lighting variances wreak havoc on old guy eyes. I shot at both indoor and outdoor ranges just to get tuned up on how variable lighting conditions would effect the clarity of my sight picture and overall visual acuity. Indoor range lighting conditions can do funky things and play mind games with you if you are not careful. I shot targets indoors at various distances and played with the lighting in the bay to get the best sight picture possible but in the end it was a lesson in how lighting effects sight picture and ultimately POI. Obviously, I won't be given this luxury in a home defense or CCW environment. I shot some scenarios in an indoor PRISim simulator and in this environment night sights ruled. I NEVER zero any of my handguns at an indoor range. If I have to I will verify the zero outdoors.

- I shoot 3 dots sights better than any other combination. What have I tried? I have a literal box of sights that I have accumulated over the years. All are for Glock 17/34 models. These consist of old school Trijicon standard 3 dots, Meprolight 3 dots (I thinned the front down to .125), Warren Tactical 2 and 3 dots, Heinie Straight 8's, XS big dots, Ameriglo Defoor's, Sevigny competition (all black and black rear with FO front), and stock Glock sights. Each has there positive and negatives but I shot the most consistently with 3 dot set ups. A thinner front sight is nice when doing a walk back drill out to 100 yards but I think a .125 (relative to rear sight notch) will do me just fine and be sufficient for just about everything. I did not notice a difference in my group size with a thinner (.115 Sevigny) at 25 yards. I shot groups as tight or tighter with the stock Glock .165 using the same gun and ammo combo.

- I shoot my G17 better than my G34. That can't be... right?! I ran the same drills with both guns with the same sight set up and ammo combo. I have a lot miles on the G17 but I have been shooting the G34 almost exclusively for the past two years. However, I picked up the G17 and it was like getting reacquainted with an old friend. I like the balance better and it seems to be a bit quicker out of the holster and on target. The G17 is slightly snappier in recoil but I only noticed it shooting slow fire groups. Both guns are set up with the old 3.5lb (or whatever they call it now) factory connector and a polish job, factory extended mag release with a slight file job to smooth out the edges and help reload with my short ass thumbs. Other than that and the sights the guns are stock. I didn't really see a big difference in accuracy when shooting both 1" dots at 5 yards or 5 round groups at 25 yards. I managed to consistently ring a 12" plate at 100 yards with both and did not see any measurable difference between the two at this distance. Both guns were set up with Sevigny Comps with a FO front and then changed to Trijicon 3 dots.

- While I have a bunch of sights, I'm not really super jazzed by any of them. Each had their pro's and cons and I am looking forward to trying some new stuff. On the the horizon will be Trijicon HD's (not sure which color I want to try yet although I know the orange is popular I might try the yellow unless someone can tell me why one is better than the other), Ameriglos with a Hack front and a standard with rear notch and subdued 2 dot rear. I'm not sure I'm a big fan of wide rear notches.

Thanks for reading my vomit and any input, personal experience, observation, or test that you have conducted that you think might offer some insight as I get back into the swing is always welcome.

-EB

[EMC]

Looking forward to this thread, as I'm on the sight hunt myself.

[LSP972]

Ernie, my vision has degraded in a remarkably similar fashion to yours. I too find the three dot "system" about the only thing that allows me to get a decent flash sight picture these days. Specifically, the huge dots on the stock HK45C sights are still "working" for me. While I haven't tried everything out there, I have tried most of it. A fiber optic front sight is wonderful- when there is lots of bright ambient light, especially in bright sunlight. Given that I don't compete, and personal defense is my main thrust, and 70%+ of those encounters occur in dim light... so much for fiber optics.

I explored the red dot sight thing pretty thoroughly. It works, but takes a LOT of time and ammunition to acclimate oneself to these on a carry pistol. Still, it IS the answer to "old man eyes". I had to abandon the idea because HKs simply do not lend themselves well to a proper job of inletting the sight down into the slide. It can be done, but the sight still sits up too high for my IWB holster (the extreme forward cant of the holster). I have a couple of Bowie Glock 19s which have superb installations that carry beautifully... but I don't want to go back to carrying the VolksPistole. And I am quite satisfied with my holster choice (RM Holsters Low Rider) and have no intention of changing.

A pity, really, because the RDS-equipped carry piece changes the dynamics of sighted fire drastically for the better. Its a bit slower up close, true enough. Moot point for me though.

It sounds to me like you have a firm grip on your problem and how to go about finding what will work best for you. Good luck. Getting old truly sucketh large...

.

[SeriousStudent]

F2S had a post recently on another website that was quite good. It did not specifically call on the issues of aging eyes (like yours and mine). My eyeballs are well past the half-century mark. But his post would be relevant to your question.

He was using some Ameriglo 3-dot sights. I'm not going to be so rash as to speak for him. But his exposition made a great deal of sense. Personally, I'm working with Warren Tactical 2-dot's and Ameriglo Hackathorns. I have the Defoor's on a teaching gun, and like them for that.

If he does not magically appear to offer his knowledge, shoot me a PM and I'll send you a link. I did not post the link directly, as I am unsure if that is acceptable behavior here. If someone who is a mod/staff/authority figure says it's okay, I will do so.

And I agree with LSP972. Getting old sucks, but it is dramatically better than the alternative.

[Kimura]

F2S had a post recently on another website that was quite good. It did not specifically call on the issues of aging eyes (like yours and mine). My eyeballs are well past the half-century mark. But his post would be relevant to your question.

He was using some Ameriglo 3-dot sights. I'm not going to be so rash as to speak for him. But his exposition made a great deal of sense. Personally, I'm working with Warren Tactical 2-dot's and Ameriglo Hackathorns. I have the Defoor's on a teaching gun, and like them for that.

If he does not magically appear to offer his knowledge, shoot me a PM and I'll send you a link. I did not post the link directly, as I am unsure if that is acceptable behavior here. If someone who is a mod/staff/authority figure says it's okay, I will do so.

And I agree with LSP972. Getting old sucks, but it is dramatically better than the alternative.

Here's a link to his post if you want to read it. http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1281565&postcount=31 I don't know why it would be a problem to post it. He uses an Ameriglo CAP orange front with a Pro operator trit rear. His explanation of why makes me want to try them as well.

[ToddG]

You're more than welcome to post relevant links to other sites, forums, etc.

After checking out the link, that's the same sight setup I use, as well, fwiw.

[NickA]

Todd - what are you finding to be the main difference between the CAP front and the Hack?

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[ToddG]

Todd - what are you finding to be the main difference between the CAP front and the Hack?

Other than height, very little. I do like the low profile of the CAP and the version of the Pro Ops that I'm running.

[NickA]

Other than height, very little. I do like the low profile of the CAP and the version of the Pro Ops that I'm running.

Thanks, was just curious if there was any big advantage.
On a semi-related note I'm switching my plain black Hack rear to the ProOp to get tritium, and because the undercut rear of the Hack creates an edge that sometimes digs into me in AIWB; can't wait to try them out.

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[EMC]

Other than height, very little. I do like the low profile of the CAP and the version of the Pro Ops that I'm running.

Todd what are your thoughts regarding the wider rear notch of the pro ops. How does it affect precision work and how would it behave on shorter slides (IE a G19 vs G17)?

[SeriousStudent]

You're more than welcome to post relevant links to other sites, forums, etc.

After checking out the link, that's the same sight setup I use, as well, fwiw.

Thank you, Mr. Green. I appreciate the info on the sights as well. I was able to buy one of those used Gen2 G19's from AIM the other day, and I think I'll try that setup.

[Ga Shooter]

Piggybacking on this thread; I called Ameriglo yesterday as I currently use the Hackathorn sights to see what the difference between the front sight of the CAP sights and the Hackathorns. Sally (I think that was her name) told me that they are the exact same except the orange paint on the Hack's are round and square on the Cap's. So my questions for those who have used both are:

1. Do you think the shape of the orange paint makes any difference while shooting

2. Do you think the Pro Operators because of the two dots lining up with the front dot makes a difference.

My questions relate to accuracy at speed. I love the Hacks but I still seem to have accuracy problems at longer ranges. I am sure that some of it is me and someone will be helping me with that next weekend, but I also, because of eyesight, have a little problem getting a good crisp focus on the top edge of the front sight.

[ErnieB]

I am working at the NRA show in St. Louis and stopped by both the Trijicon and Ameriglo booths to check out their sight configurations. I spoke with Rick Callihan from Ameriglo a bit and got to look through the sight models that interest me. I have decided I am going to bite the bullet (no pun intended) and purchase both Hack and Cap front sights, Pro Operator, Pro and Standard night sight rears to see what combination I like the best. Always interested to hear from those that have tried or are using any of these sights.

Here are some of things I am interested in trying:

- Hack vs. Cap profile front. Sharp square painted edges or dot for fast acquisition vs. precision. Color: I know some like the orange but to me it seems dim so I want to try orange vs. yellow.

- Pro Operator, Pro and Standard rear night sight: Will I like the wider .180 rear notch or just go with the standard .150. Subdued rear dots or vials with outlines. I don't really find the outlines "distracting" as I am actually use the rear dots to help with alignment as my eyes age.

For the moment, I have ruled out the Trijicon HD's as I want to try all the combinations above and see what I like. Who knows I may arrive at the fact that what I like is the profile of the HD's. Ameriglo just has more options to fine tune what works for my specific vision (or lack there of) and Rick was nice enough to spend a few minutes and walk me through all the offerings. Once I find what I like I will stick with it. I have not experimented with sights for quite a long time so I am going to enjoy having a little fun trying some new stuff.

[ErnieB]

Piggybacking on this thread; I called Ameriglo yesterday as I currently use the Hackathorn sights to see what the difference between the front sight of the CAP sights and the Hackathorns. Sally (I think that was her name) told me that they are the exact same except the orange paint on the Hack's are round and square on the Cap's. So my questions for those who have used both are:

1. Do you think the shape of the orange paint makes any difference while shooting

2. Do you think the Pro Operators because of the two dots lining up with the front dot makes a difference.

My questions relate to accuracy at speed. I love the Hacks but I still seem to have accuracy problems at longer ranges. I am sure that some of it is me and someone will be helping me with that next weekend, but I also, because of eyesight, have a little problem getting a good crisp focus on the top edge of the front sight.


These are some of the questions that I am hoping to get answers to and that is why I am ordering the sights I listed in my last post. I am thinking of going with a CAP front (I can see the actual edges) and some type of 2 dot rear to help with alignment. Just not sure if want the subdued vials or the outlined vials. All depends how my eyes pick them up.

[DocGKR]

As I have noted in other threads, vision issues, including middle-aged presbyopia can compromise the ability to see the front sight on traditional sights. One trick is to use bright reflective tape or paint on the front sight (http://pistol-training.com/articles/the-johno-diy-high-visibility-front-sight) or a bright fiber optic front sight insert. Another option is to go with a rear sight with a wider notch and a high visibility front sight, (Hack, CAP, HD, etc...)--the extreme version of this being the XS 24/7 Big Dot sight system. Lasers are great, but are not so good in bright light and at longer ranges. For me, the only thing that has worked enough to get me fully back into the game is a RDS milled into the slide, as detailed in other threads.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6158/6153824627_0a52e0268b_b.jpg

[mongooseman]

I have a set of the Ameriglo CAPS on my G17 that I love. The orange around the tritium insert makes quick snap shots easy, and on longer shots the square shape works for precision shots. I've been putting in the work (just finished the 1000 Round Gunsmithing) but up until now have never been able to shoot a Glock as well as the SIG's or the HK's. I attribute part of that to the Ameriglos. Will be ordering some for the new Gen 4 G19.

In addition to astigmatism, these 49 year old eyes have glacouma, which requires three month follow up visits. Friday I was being examined and the good doctor saw the beginning of cataracts. Said I would need surgery (long pause) in about ten years. I thought cops were brutal with their sense of humor.

[ErnieB]

I swung by the Trijicon booth again today and took another look at the HD's. They only had the orange front sight version on display. I am going to get a set of those in yellow as well and give 'em a go. I will probably set up a few of my 17's and try to keep every thing consistent except for the sights. Off to VA to teach a course for the next few days then back to Utah by Friday. I will order up everything once I get home.

Anybody have any opinions on the square painted inserts on the CAPS vs. the dots on the HD's or Hacks when it comes to applying them to precise shots? Never shot a front sight with a painted square and in theory should allow me to reference the edges of the sight better. Am I on track? I can always wait until I get them to decide for myself but I thought I would ask.

Thanks!

[ErnieB]

Just ordered a CAP and ProGlo front and two rear sights. One with rings around the vials and one with just the vials. I also ordered a set of Dawson adjustable sights for the comp gun. Black rear, FO front in a .125. I chose the .125 specifically as I wanted to try a different rear notch width/front sight width combo than I am currently using with the Sevigny's. I have been acquiring the sights quicker and getting better hits with a wider set of sights than with the narrow front/wide notch rear. Results with your eyes may vary. I've said it before but gettin' old sucks... big time... Still not ready to go the way of the dot yet.

[Ga Shooter]

Anybody have any opinions on the square painted inserts on the CAPS vs. the dots on the HD's or Hacks when it comes to applying them to precise shots? Never shot a front sight with a painted square and in theory should allow me to reference the edges of the sight better. Am I on track? I can always wait until I get them to decide for myself but I thought I would ask.

Thanks!

"I think that the shape is important, and here's why:
The first time I tried the Hacks I couldn't figure out why I was shooting distinctly high. Then an interesting thing was pointed out to me: the circle on the front sight of the Hack is bigger than the rear sight notch depth, so when I was seeing a full dot, the front sight was actually high. Odd, but true.

I also find that for me, the rear dots being in perfect alignment with the front dot is great for times when I need the tritium assist. I don't even notice them in the light, which makes the rear look like a plain black rear, which is good.

That big bright front sight stands out well in the black rear notch. I find the width of the front sight and rear sight to be as well as anything else I have used. I like to shoot fast, and I like to be precise, and the sights seem to work well in that regard, and I don't have to paint anything or shop around for different front sight heights. "

The above is a quote from Failure2Stop on M4Carbine.net when I asked similar question.

After that I ordered the Cap front and the Pro Operator rears but Ameriglo was out of stock. They were supposed to get some in the middle of last week but as of today their website still said sold out. When you placed your oreder what info did you get on availability? I am really waiting to see how this set up works for me.

[ErnieB]

"I think that the shape is important, and here's why:
The first time I tried the Hacks I couldn't figure out why I was shooting distinctly high. Then an interesting thing was pointed out to me: the circle on the front sight of the Hack is bigger than the rear sight notch depth, so when I was seeing a full dot, the front sight was actually high. Odd, but true.

I also find that for me, the rear dots being in perfect alignment with the front dot is great for times when I need the tritium assist. I don't even notice them in the light, which makes the rear look like a plain black rear, which is good.

That big bright front sight stands out well in the black rear notch. I find the width of the front sight and rear sight to be as well as anything else I have used. I like to shoot fast, and I like to be precise, and the sights seem to work well in that regard, and I don't have to paint anything or shop around for different front sight heights. "

The above is a quote from Failure2Stop on M4Carbine.net when I asked similar question.

After that I ordered the Cap front and the Pro Operator rears but Ameriglo was out of stock. They were supposed to get some in the middle of last week but as of today their website still said sold out. When you placed your oreder what info did you get on availability? I am really waiting to see how this set up works for me.

Regarding availability, I spoke with Rick at Ameriglo and everything I ordered was in stock with the exception of the Hack front I believe and that was going to be shipped a week from today. Also, Rick took the time to answer my lengthy list of questions regarding heights and impact. Thanks Rick. Hope I didn't cause you to think about taking the rest of the day off!

[Failure2Stop]

I just want to point out that pretty much everything regarding these sights is what Todd and TC have said, verified by my use of the sights compared directly to other sights.

I simply do not have the time or inclination to test out every sight combination on the market. That's why I asked here about "the new hotness with sights" back when I picked up my new G17.

The CAP/Pro Op is working well for me. Was getting 100% hits on a horizontal 3x5 at 25 yds (excluding called fliers) yesterday when confirming POI with a new batch of ammo.

Just wanted to give credit where credit is due.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Ga Shooter]

Regarding availability, I spoke with Rick at Ameriglo and everything I ordered was in stock with the exception of the Hack front I believe and that was going to be shipped a week from today. Also, Rick took the time to answer my lengthy list of questions regarding heights and impact. Thanks Rick. Hope I didn't cause you to think about taking the rest of the day off!

Rick is great! He helped me a lot when I called. Got the same thing on the front CAPS being out of stock until middle of last week.

[Ga Shooter]

I just want to point out that pretty much everything regarding these sights is what Todd and TC have said, verified by my use of the sights compared directly to other sights.

I simply do not have the time or inclination to test out every sight combination on the market. That's why I asked here about "the new hotness with sights" back when I picked up my new G17.

The CAP/Pro Op is working well for me. Was getting 100% hits on a horizontal 3x5 at 25 yds (excluding called fliers) yesterday when confirming POI with a new batch of ammo.

Just wanted to give credit where credit is due.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Thanks for jumping in. I was doing the same by giing credit to you, because that is what I based my decision on. Funny how things come full circle.

[justintime]

Which height of the hackathorn rear sights should be used with a cap front sight?

[Savage Hands]

Here's a link to his post if you want to read it. http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1281565&postcount=31 I don't know why it would be a problem to post it. He uses an Ameriglo CAP orange front with a Pro operator trit rear. His explanation of why makes me want to try them as well.



I really like my orange Ameriglo CAP sights on my G19 and just bought another set for my G17.

http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad251/SShenaniguns/IMG_20120721_112107.jpg