Smaller Saps?

[guymontag]

Mods/Staff, feel free to move this thread.

I’ve seen a few posts on this forum in the past regarding saps but I never delved into due to state law. It appears that is changing for Texas so I’m actually interested in some of the smaller finger and palm and coin saps available. Any comments on effectiveness or training with these tools?

I have some judo/jj experience but not too much in the way of striking, and I was more interested in the palm saps as opposed to the larger ones for carry but I don’t know very much in the way of drills or dedicated instructors for it - unless I’ve overthinking it. Thanks in advance!

[Cecil Burch]

i am not a fan of the finger/palm saps. I just don't think you get the bang for the buck. They are not quick to access or put on (certainly generally slower than the standard ones), and you lose any reach you get with a regular sap. You also lose the ability change up the impact by having the choice of the edge or the flat that you do with a normal flat sap. To me they are more of a gimmick than a usable EDC type thing. I have a hard time visualizing a situation where a private citizen will have either the time or the foreknowledge to have a finger or palm sap in place ready to go, and in a typical criminal assault, you are not going to have the time.

Having said that, YMMV and everyone is different, so I would take a look here:

https://www.davidsonleather.com/home/saps/


http://www.greenmanleather.ca/jack-saps.php


https://d3protection.com/palm-and-finger-saps


I have saps from the last one, but none personally from the first two, but I know plenty of people who do, and I have not heard anything negative on the quality of their work.

One thing I would strongly encourage you on is to get some training, especially seeing as how you have little in the way of a striking background. the only sap course where someone actually put together a deep dive into saps and jacks and not just some generic impact stick class that they reconfigured is Larry Lindenman's of Point Driven Training. Steve Moses of Palisade Training Group is hosting Larry Dec 7/8 in Dallas. I would urge you to sign up. Larry does not cover finger and palm saps specifically, but does cover the general principles.

http://www.ptgtrainingllc.com/store/p37/Small_Impact_Weapons_Instructor_Course.html

[guymontag]

Cecil, thanks so much for the information - great content and contributions like this are why I keep coming back to this forum, I appreciate the help!

[Isaac]

I had a 7" one that was perfect once, gave it away bc they are illegal in my new state of Michigan. It was perfect, would disappear in a normal sized front jean pocket. The hand strap on it was supple and soft too, which I preferred to the formed and firm version. I'll see if I can find a pic somewhere, but I remember I paid under 20$ for it.

[Cecil Burch]

the current issue of Concealment has a really good article by Larry on Saps and Jacks. Here are a couple of older articles from Concealment online (note that one of the articles has nice things to say about me - just a caveat):


https://www.recoilweb.com/the-art-of-the-beat-down-143329.html

https://www.recoilweb.com/striking-distance-143325.html

[45dotACP]

When I worked long term care I took care of an old timer who ran a jewelry store back in the day. He kept in his room, a big ass slapper that must have been a foot long.

I got the distinct impression that even this feeble old man who walked with a cane could deliver an unpleasant strike with that worn out piece of leather and I wondered how many heads he'd had to thump with it.

If the director of nursing had known about that she'd have probably lost her shit, but me and this old timer had a few decent conversations and she would never hear it from me.

Come to think of it, I had a number of good conversations with a number of old timers with combat time in WWII, and Korea. Lots of hunters, competitive shooters etc in the Northern IL and Chicago area, some even back when there was a trap range on Lake Michigan...It's a damned shame that so few of that generation are left now.

A coin sap is an appealing thought to me, given the legality of saps in IL and especially because my striking skill set, while decent, is nowhere what it should be against a half decent boxer.

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[willie]

I had a sap collection which I gave away item by item to police officers interested in collecting them. I well remember when every cop carried one. I also gave away my sap gloves, a choice not known to all. For me saps were items to collect. I see saps having little use for civilians. One exception might be a larger one kept indoors near a door.

[blues]

Just took delivery this afternoon of a Boston Leather "Midget" (https://batonwarehouse.com/products/boston-leather-model-5415-1-midget-sap-impact-weapon-4-ply?_pos=5&_sid=217b75fe0&_ss=r) sap and the size is perfect for what I wanted...something small and pocketable.

6.75" and 9.5 ounces. Fits perfect in the small outside pocket of Duluth Trading Post firehose cargo pants or shorts. Very pleased.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1416/8794/products/BL5415-1_large.jpg?v=1509736026

[Gadfly]

Just took delivery this afternoon of a Boston Leather "Midget" (https://batonwarehouse.com/products/boston-leather-model-5415-1-midget-sap-impact-weapon-4-ply?_pos=5&_sid=217b75fe0&_ss=r) sap and the size is perfect for what I wanted...something small and pocketable.

6.75" and 9.5 ounces. Fits perfect in the small outside pocket of Duluth Trading Post firehose cargo pants or shorts. Very pleased.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1416/8794/products/BL5415-1_large.jpg?v=1509736026

Can you pos a pic of that in your hand so I can get a scale of how much grip you have compared to “slap” surface?


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[blues]

I have a medium sized hand. About 9" around the knuckles...


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[blues]

You do not want to be on the business end of this little beast.

[Oukaapie]

If you are a good slapper I suspect those palm slaps will hit really well, but access under moderate pressure seems, at first glance, to be a challenge.

I recently got a Boston Leather midget and a DD Whips Convoy and I think it’s truly no comparison. The Convoy is phenomenally hard hitting. Would hate to get hit with either but that DD Blackjack is terrifying.

Seems like a 7 inch blackjack around 9 ounces would still be nasty.

Interested to hear from old guys that have used the smaller ones.

[RevolverRob]

I use a Boston Leather Midget 2-play like the one Blues showed - I also have a Foster midget. I actually prefer the Boston Leather, because the hand strap is less thick. I want enough strap to grab, not enough that it hinders concealment which the Foster does by having a thick hand strap. I also have two Foster jacks, the smaller of the two, a cable jack, is damn near perfect for rendering large amounts of pain discretely.

As you can see I use a rubber band to keep the strap short and use my pinky to hook and draw the sap. I like the Greenman Leather snap type strap he uses - http://www.greenmanleather.ca/images/products/jack-saps/bucheimer/midget/chocolate-bridle-with-snap-upgrade-thumb.jpg Which will accomplish the same as a rubber band, but be a little flatter.

Advantage of BL Midgets is...they're about 20-25 bucks. The 2-ply is great for carry. If I thought I'd use it a lot, I guess a 4-ply would be more robust. But I don't think it's necessary and just hinders concealment in many respects.

41854

[RevolverRob]

If you are a good slapper I suspect those palm slaps will hit really well, but access under moderate pressure seems, at first glance, to be a challenge.

I recently got a Boston Leather midget and a DD Whips Convoy and I think it’s truly no comparison. The Convoy is phenomenally hard hitting. Would hate to get hit with either but that DD Blackjack is terrifying.

Seems like a 7 inch blackjack around 9 ounces would still be nasty.

Interested to hear from old guys that have used the smaller ones.

A jack is no shit a much harder hitting weapon than a sap. It concentrates force in a narrower area and cross section. And those like the DD Whips or the Foster Cable Jacks have little "whip back" by virtue of the way they are made. They hit hard and deliver force very well. I have a I think a 8-ounce cable jack, that will bowl over 300 pound guys with hits to the lower extremities. I've done it as a test on a willing participant. Even anticipating and getting hit at about 1/4 speed/strength, no problem leaving a bruise the size of a grapefruit on my 'test dummy's' leg.

By virtue of the way they hit and how hard they hit, target selection is critical with a jack. A shot to the jaw line with the flat side of a flat sap could dislocate a jaw or break it, a jack almost certainly will break the jaw even with a moderate hit.

The advantage of the sap is that you can use the flat to disperse the force of the hit or you can use the edge to concentrate the force. No choice with the jack in that regard.

[nalesq]

I see saps having little use for civilians. One exception might be a larger one kept indoors near a door.

I would actually rather have a sap than a knife (especially a folder) for civilian self defense. I particularly appreciate how easily something like the midget is carried and how one can very discreetly grasp the sap without causing undue alarm, simply by reaching casually into one’s pockets (much like a pocket carried snub).

I also like how using the sap in a fight isn’t going to result in nearly as much nasty bodily fluids getting dribbled about as something like a knife, and how the sap is generally no more lethal than a baton, for those situations where using deadly force might not quite be the way to go.

Really, the only downside to the sap is that it is somehow less legal than guns or knives in many jurisdictions.


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[Oukaapie]

Do the cables hit harder? Why?

[RevolverRob]

I see saps having little use for civilians.

If you can get into a fight at Wal-Mart you have potential use for a sap. If there might be a fist fight you're involved with, having a sap stacks the deck in your favor. A sap + OC is a great set of tools for public transit, parking lots, the dog park, hell anywhere.

The reason cops like them, is because they work real well at stopping fights. Whether you're a cop or Joe Schmoe down the street doesn't matter. Saps and jacks when deployed and used properly are typically less-lethal and help end fights sooner. The reason most places banned them is...because they are discreet to carry and end fights really well.

It's not really a complete analogy, but to me a sap is to a knife what a shotgun is to a pistol. They each have their uses, deployment strengths, and ranges. Each when used properly can do the job. A jack or sap, like a shotgun, generates more power by virtue of its design.

[RevolverRob]

Do the cables hit harder? Why?

No spring back.

With a spring-sprung jack you'll get some "whip back" when it hits a surface and that is force that doesn't hit the surface. The cable just really doesn't "whip back" much at all. So (almost) all the energy from the swing gets delivered.

I thought the opposite for a while, until I tried them both. Then you can see the difference.

I'm gonna cook some steak tomorrow that needs to be tenderized. I'll tenderize it and video it with a sap showing flat and edge strikes, a cable jack, and a larger spring jack I have. Then you guys can see the differences in hits.

[blues]

Everyone's mileage may vary but I purchased the Midget as a "less lethal" option. My intent is for it to create space to depart or, if appropriate and necessary, allow other options.

The fact that it can dispense more or less punishment depending on how it's employed is a plus. Since it's intended as a close quarters, concealable option to protect my hands which, while still strong, cannot withstand the punishment they once took, the Midget gets the nod.

Won't give the distance I might prefer with a cur but I can live with the trade-off.

The fact that I don't have to worry about it failing or emptying at the wrong time, (like a canister of OC potentially might), and that a reasonably well placed blow can end an attack quickly, gives it a leg up in my book.

As stated above, mileage will certainly vary.

[Oukaapie]

Thanks RevolverRob. Looks like I’ll be getting a smaller cable jack.

[willie]

I think that most police departments have banned use of saps. Hitting someone on the head with a larger one would be risky. Further, saps may project a negative image to police when used by a civilian in a fistfight. If so, the sap might affect how the officer wrote his report especially if the other guy had split lips, broken nose, and other trauma. For me these are essential considerations. Walking away from a fight with an idiot might be a better choice.

[RevolverRob]

Walking away from a fight with an idiot might be a better choice.

I don't think it might be a better choice, it is the better choice. If one can walk away from a fight it is absolutely the better choice. I suppose I started from the ASSumption that one was in a position where they would be justified in using force.

Saps aren't for picking bar fights. At least not when used for lawful defensive purposes. There are merely a blunt force multiplier. If you are justified in using approximately the same level of force you would with a fist, then you should be justified in the use of a sap - as long as the sap is legal to have (obvious caveat, IANAL, seek and retain competent legal council, know your state laws, etc).

A sap is meant to bridge the gap between OC spray and lethal force tools, by providing you with a less-lethal (when used properly) force item that is quite effective.

Many police departments banned saps and jacks, due to inappropriate use by officers in the past and/or due to a dim public political view. 60 years ago, a sap or jack in a policeman's pocket was common, 30-years ago, it was far less common, today even less so. In between, the nature of use of force and types of force that can be used has changed significantly. A "pie from the sky" hit with a flat sap to the head can cause a skull fracture and death a jack even more so. This is why Cecil was quick to point out that one should invest some time in jack and sap training and learning how to use and the limits of the tools.

FWIW, if you talk to an officer who can carry a sap or jack two things will become apparent. 1) They tend to prefer flat saps like a Midget or Bucheimer. 2) They universally prefer saps to any other impact tool commonly used, to include the PR24 (which isn't even commonly in use). Some prefer them significantly to other less lethal tools like Tasers. Guys who have gotten into fights with them like them, because they work. Just like guys who have used shotguns to conduct 'social work' like them because they work.

[Oukaapie]

Correction, my Boston Leather is a Junior, midget is now inbound.

How are you using the smaller Sap’s? Seems they need to be focused on the jawline, under the chin, behind the ear. You still using them on limbs?

[BehindBlueI's]

If you are justified in using approximately the same level of force you would with a fist, then you should be justified in the use of a sap - as long as the sap is legal to have

I would be extremely cautious with that assumption and be prepared to explain disparity of force that lead you to use a "force multiplier". Prosecutors discretion often overlooks fist fighting where fights with implements are more closely scrutinized.

[RevolverRob]

I would be extremely cautious with that assumption and be prepared to explain disparity of force that lead you to use a "force multiplier". Prosecutors discretion often overlooks fist fighting where fights with implements are more closely scrutinized.

Concur. I would not ASSume this is always (or perhaps ever) the case - I wrote the above in such a way to couch it that this was not a given, but hesitated in the way to word it.

So let me amend my not legal advice - you should deploy a sap or jack in instances where you feel confident that such a level of force is justified. How and when that is, is up to you, but seek competent training, legal advice and retain council for your own safety. While the average civilian is not bound by use of force policy, review of how and when your local constabulary deploys OC/less-lethal impact tools/lethal force can give you an idea of appropriate force use in your circumstances.

[RevolverRob]

Correction, my Boston Leather is a Junior, midget is now inbound.

How are you using the smaller Sap’s? Seems they need to be focused on the jawline, under the chin, behind the ear. You still using them on limbs?

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

I could be wrong in how I think of it so lets page Cecil Burch and SouthNarc to come give us correct thoughts -

When deploying the sap I think about targeting and which way to use it like I would punches or kicks:

If I would jab or cross, I will jab or cross with the tip or edge of the sap.

Uppercuts use the edge/tip of the sap.

Anywhere you might throw a hook you can either rotate the fist over and use the tip/edge of the sap, or you can use the flat by not rotating the fist.

If I were going to throw a leg kick to the thigh or calf? Flat side of the sap using a hook or backhand.

Liver/kidney shots can be done with the tip or flat.

Clinched up usually you'll strike with the edge, because you have less leverage.

It was Craig who turned me onto Bas Ruten's liver shot - Watch Bas here and think - what if he had a sap and used the edge or flat here? It doesn't necessarily matter, it would just add 8 ounces of uncrushable lead to his shots. It also lets you think, "Okay, I don't have to load up and swing from as far away to deliver the same power with a jack or sap in my hand as I would a punch."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiA58nDBd6Q"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiA58nDBd6Q

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I have a Foster Midget that I use as a fish bonker.

Works amazing. The skulls on decent sized ling cod are flattened.

I had my dad out fishing one time a couple of years ago and he thought the sap was a joke and clubbed his fish with a wooden bonker and forty years of experience.

I used the sap. I put almost no effort in to the hit. Wasn't my fish that kept waking up over the next ten minutes. Wasn't my fish that needed four sessions of encouragement to stop flailing around in the well. I have continued to use the sap.

[Cecil Burch]

I generally don't like straight line shots with saps. It is difficult to keep a good enough grip on one while doing so that allows you to a) hit with power and b) maintain the hold on the sap.

Most of my strikes are gong to be tight arcs (think of Bas' body shot mechanics) aimed at the collar bone, jawline, shoulder, and head. Secondary targets are the limbs and ribs, and soft body targets like the liver or kidneys. While I certainly think they can be useful to damage, they tend to be far more difficult to actually contact because the other guy is most likely using them to fight back and they are moving rapidly and in different directions/angles.

Training with saps to build power is fairly easy, and where the standard heavy bag shines. because the most effective and easily landed shots are those arcs, the heavy bag lets you really dial in those mechanics. I would encourage people to hit the bag with straight shots too, but pay attention to whether you are hitting with maximum energy and whether you are maintaining the solid and same grip on it while doing so.

[Blades]

Mean Gene Leather (https://www.meangeneleather.com/shop/mgl-hot-tamale-less-lethal-coin/) makes a "coin purse" that would be nice if you carry a lot of quarters(a roll of quarters weighs 8 ounces). There are a few other companies that make "coin purses" if you do some googling.
My mom has a "Small Snap Coin Sac" (http://www.greenmanleather.ca/snap-coin-sac-small.php) she keeps a roll of quarters in.

[RevolverRob]

Mean Gene Leather (https://www.meangeneleather.com/shop/mgl-hot-tamale-less-lethal-coin/) makes a "coin purse" that would be nice if you carry a lot of quarters(a roll of quarters weighs 8 ounces). There are a few other companies that make "coin purses" if you do some googling.
My mom has a "Small Snap Coin Sac" (http://www.greenmanleather.ca/snap-coin-sac-small.php) she keeps a roll of quarters in.

The trouble with the various coin saps out there is they lack the stiffness necessary to actually function well without taking an overhead or looping hook shot and using the whipping motion of those shots to help deliver the blow. In other words, they need distance and wind-up to function at their best.

Most of them end up like semi-floppy slung-shots as opposed to saps. The 'Hot Tamale' is a perfect example of this. For sure you don't want to get smashed with 8-ounces of quarters swung over hand or with a hook, but it's a compromise tool compared to a proper sap or jack. Ostensibly it's something that you can carry legally as a "coin purse". But I wouldn't want to be a test case in most instances in most jurisdictions. The best function for them, in my opinion, is travel to a foreign country.

The Greenman Coin Sacs at least have the advantage of looking like something other than a modified sap.

[Jamie]

Most of my strikes are gong to be tight arcs (think of Bas' body shot mechanics) aimed at the collar bone, jawline, shoulder, and head. Secondary targets are the limbs and ribs, and soft body targets like the liver or kidneys.

.

Way back in August of 2006 Craig (with the very much missed Gomez assisting) was kind enough to run a "Blackjacks & Saps" class here in the Knoxville area for our little group. Paul and I had done some work using Boston Leather Juniors and Midgets iirc prior. But, again to the best of my memory, it was this type of tight arc close in or entangled use of the sap that Craig taught that really brought home the incredible utility of this tool in that kind of a situation. It was an enlightening class, but Craig's classes always are.

I have several saps and blackjacks, including some of the Foster Brothers excellent tools, but I particularly like carrying the Boston Leather Junior as it's grip profile seems to allow me to hang onto and control it better...and it's really inexpensive. And it rides well in my right hip pocket alongside my TQ.

FWIW they are legal to carry in TN with impact tool training credentialing.

Thanks for the excellent information in this thread and subforum.

[JodyH]

The two strikes I practice most often are both "liver shots". One is a "slap" to the floating rib the other is a "stab" to the floating rib.
The slap is more of a ranged attack and the stab works better in a clinch. Both work well because even if they "block" the shot you'll usually hit their elbow, which is another good target as my coach found out when we played around with a sap and him wearing a boxing body guard. He tucked his elbow (like a boxer) to block my very light sap slap and ended up with a numb arm for a few hours. If you train live with a sap go extremely light on your strikes, even if your partner is fully padded up. Sap strikes, especially stabs are no joke.

Floating rib, tip of the elbow, wrist, collarbone, fingers, back of the hand all are excellent less/non-lethal sap strike/slap options. Slaps are generally lower force than stabs or edge strikes.
Any sap strikes to the head should be considered deadly force with a slap to the chin probably being the least likely to kill them.

The small black one is my favorite.
It's a Foster #31 that's 7.25" long and 11.5 ounces.
I had him put the snap in the middle of the strap so that it maintains a fairly rigid pinky loop for fast retrieval out of a pocket.
I carry it either in my left front or rear pocket.

42079

42080

[JodyH]

Here's the "pinky loop" of my Foster #31 sticking up out of the "cell phone" pocket on my Kuhl shorts.
Perfect position for retrieval and fairly low profile.
Saps are rare enough these days that the leather loop sticking up doesn't stand out as being anything concerning.
Not as obviously potentially dangerous as a knife clip.

42086

[RevolverRob]

If you train live with a sap go extremely light on your strikes, even if your partner is fully padded up. Sap strikes, especially stabs are no joke.

Jody, make sure you look at the Greenman Leather link Cecil posted earlier. Greenman has a "flat sap training tool" which is just a thin piece of steel (not particularly heavy) wrapped in 4-ply leather. Gives shape and stiffness like a sap, but without the weight. Still want a partner that is padded, but you can work a little more "vigorously" with that tool.

Like Cecil suggests, I use small arc shots with the sap. And like Jody the liver shot is one of my go-to shots. I like Bas Rutten's mid-level wind-up and you can go high or low, depending on what your opponent gives you. Following Bas's ideas on getting someone to raise their defense is great for opening up a mean liver shot.

Also, I love the Bolo punch with a sap or jack. A Bolo for those who don't know is sort of like a mix of a hook and uppercut, and thrown with a short arc at the face/chin thrown from about the 3:30-4 o'clock position from an Orthodox stance (lefty is just a 8:30-9 o'clock position).

The overcut is also a good one with a sap or jack but you want to be careful due to the potential of hitting a lot of exposed skull if you're taller fighting someone shorter. If you're fighting an opponent who is around 6"+ taller than you the overcut is nice because it tends to be an arcing blow using the shoulder and hip rotation that lands around the side of the face/jaw of an opponent. With a jack or sap even a partially landed overcut has the potential to end the fight.

[nalesq]

Saps are rare enough these days that the leather loop sticking up doesn't stand out as being anything concerning. Not as obviously potentially dangerous as a knife clip.

In fact, in my experience, most people don’t know what a sap is at all. I’ve even pulled mine out to show people and they had no idea what it was.



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[Ed L]

What about blackjacks (the rounded ones) and how do they compare to saps?

[JodyH]

What about blackjacks (the rounded ones) and how do they compare to saps?
Bone breakers.

I prefer a sap because with training you have more flexibility in how much force is applied.
Sap force can be moderated more easily than Blackjacks can because you have three different amounts of surface area to work with (face, edge, point).
But with more options comes a higher commitment to training and practice in picking and applying the right option.

But if you want something you can just whip out and break a forearm or center punch a sternum with very little thought required a Blackjack is your friend, and that has it's advantages as well.

[Jeff22]

I started as a cop in 1981. At that time lot of the older guys around here still carried saps or blackjacks in the sap pocket of their uniform pants and did so until about '84 or '85 when such weapons were specifically prohibited by policy. Most of the guys used them as a backup impact weapon, in case they bailed out of the car in a hurry and forgot their straight baton. (That was right about the time the ASP expanding baton was introduced)

I bought a Bucheimer "Convoy" blackjack and another model with a lighter weight (Maybe a Bucheimer #7980?)

One of my older mentors who worked for the Sheriff's Office told me to use the lighter one. I carried it as a backup until policy changed.(This same guy had been in a battle with a drunk sometime in the late 70s and ended up hitting the guy along side the head with the edge of a flat sap (by accident) and just about tore the suspect's ear off. No lasting repercussions from that, but he immediately switched to carrying a lighter weight round blackjack with the spring as a result. I saw him break a guy's collar bone with it in the parking lot of a road house one night when we went to a fight at bartime. That fella’ quit fighting immediately . . . )

I traded another old timer a black GI wool sweater for his sap gloves. Only used them once, breaking up a fight in a parking lot outside a bar. A strong punch to the sternum stopped a guy who wanted to fight me dead in his tracks.(Which was good, because I'm a big boy and he was about the same size and a lot more muscular (and certainly meaner) and I think I would've been in trouble if he'd have gotten his hands on me or landed a few punches)

I've carried a 26 inch ASP expanding baton for years and only had to use it twice, both times trying to break up a fight in the parking lot of a bar at 0200. Both times the individual stopped advancing after I hit them on the outside of the thigh. They were NOT incapacitated.

[Av willis]

A good resource for information on small impact weapons is Robert Escobar. He runs a youtube page called object history where he goes into a lot of detail about the history and context of saps, blackjacks, and slungshots, and has also published his research into a book.

https://www.amazon.com/Saps-Blackjacks-Slungshots-History-Forgotten-ebook/dp/B07C85JKMC/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=robert+escobar&qid=1571410807&sr=8-1

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsqamHqsg1308nHpfqOXGIb_82R3zFfCU

For myself, although I have a boston leather 4 ply midget, I am quite happy with the mean gene hot tamale I carry for my EDC. Although it's true the design limits your options of strikes, you can still get a decent edge strike by choking up on the handle. As for the issue with the mass, I solved that by dropping in a couple of my challenge coins. I've gotten over two rolls of quarters in their in the past, so I'm quite satisfied with the capacity. I've also gotten it past a number of checkpoints, in the case of more stringent searches, I've gotten it past by putting the change in a ziplock and using the tamale to carry a small item, such as an ipod nano, or hand sanitizer.

I would like to get a custom midget sized sap, preferably with an IWB clip. Some possible contenders include the Fatty and coffin sap from D3 protection, and the Lil Bam Bam from Green Man Leather